Alpha Widows

As today’s Purple Pill Manosphere tries to sort out what it wants to pick and pull from ideas the Red Pill has been debating for decades now it requires a lot of deliberate misdirection of the old concepts they struggle with. This is actually nothing new. If you look at any of the exchanges I had with Aunt Giggles (Susan Walsh ret.) or various notables from the golden years of this blog you’ll recognize the pattern – Distort the premises of the concepts that conflict with your ego-investments, straw man them, then offer some redefinition of what they ‘really’ mean.

One of these maligned concepts is the phenomenon of the Alpha Widow. I’ve written extensively on this idea for well over a decade now. I’m fairly certain I even coined the term back in my SoSuave days. Back then Alpha Widow was a designation we used to describe a woman’s tendency to become fixated on an Alpha lover she had in her Party Years and still pined for him into her 30s or 40s after marriage. We didn’t just pull the idea out of our asses back then. We came to it because of the overwhelming number of married or LTR men who reported that their wife or girlfriend were pining for old lovers they thought were “the one that got away” or they left them to pursue a new relationship with an old flame.

Back then it was just a useful reference, but it quickly became such a predictable and confirmable phenomenon I thought it deserved more investigation. I mentioned Alpha Widows in The Slut Paradox but it was around this time that Roissy (Heartise) had proposed a simple maxim: 5 Minutes of Alpha Trumps 5 years of Beta. That’s when I decided to look deeper in my own short essay Five Minutes of Alpha. With a Red Pill Lens I began to see this Alpha Widow narrative played out in popular culture. Katy Perry had a song out then called The One That Got Away and it accurately described everything that goes into making an Alpha Widow.

What is an Alpha Widow?

To understand the phenomenon of the Alpha Widow we must look at women’s evolved mating strategy – Hypergamy, a woman’s intrinsic desire to balance the best quality sexual/reproductive male with the best provisioning/parentally invested male. Since a woman’s mating strategy centers on quality in a long term partner(s) women tend to focus on ideals in men. The imperative drive for mate quality extends to both sides of women’s Hypergamous equation; the best genetic, sexual experience and the best long term security potential. Only women are Hypergamous, and Hypergamy never seeks its own level – it is always seeking a better-than-merited exchange in SMV compared to her own. For more information on this concept read False Equivalencies.

When a woman misses the opportunity to consolidate on a confirmed, high SMV (sexual market value) male that man becomes the new standard for what she believes she can attract as a potential mate.

“I’ve had an SMV 8 guy before so in the future no man below an 8 will be my optimal choice.”

Even if a woman’s perception of her own SMV isn’t realistic her Id wants what it believes it can get.

The setting of a mating strategy metric in men is largely a subconscious process for women, but, more often now, high-ego women do consciously acknowledge that one man does (or doesn’t) meet the SMV benchmark of a previous lover. As women have become more comfortable in embracing Open Hypergamy, amongst their girlfriends, on social media, they will readily debate this SMV metric of past boyfriends. The Alpha Widow dynamic is no secret among women. Usually this involves women bemoaning the lack of “eligible” men in their lives when their prime SMV years are behind them. Please note that eligible implies an entitlement to a man who would be an ideal.

This qualification process is a constant for women, and it’s a complement to mens’ Burden of Performance. Women’s Hypergamous filtering process evolved from an Existential Fear of pairing with any man beneath her own (self-perceived) SMV and risking her life on a bad reproductive bet.  The worst existential prospect for a woman is to have her mating strategy superseded and controlled by that of a suboptimal man. 

The flip side to this dynamic is that, evolutionarily speaking, a woman’s subconscious cannot afford to miss out on an optimal Hypergamous pairing. If a woman’s Existential Fear is to be forced to reproduce with a lesser man, the next fear is to lose or miss out out on the opportunity to consolidate on monogamy with a high SMV man. When I talk about how a woman will make rules for Betas, but break rules for Alphas this is the root of that principle. 

As such, a man who exceeds a woman’s SMV, and creates a benchmark of her ‘personal best’ ideal male to breed with and parentally invest with, makes a significant impact on her psyche; sometimes in the long term. When a woman has had this man – one for whom she has genuine, organic desire for – but she cannot consolidate on him (i.e. lock down in monogamy), this represents a critical loss of the ideal Hypergamous/Reproductive/Life strategy option. Mentally this is what a woman will strive in some way to recreate with subsequent men in her life – a return to that ideal state.

This then is the basis of the Alpha Widow:
A mental fixation on the man who made the most significant impact upon a woman as her Hypergamous ideal.

The Fantasy Ideal

Usually this male ideal is an actual man from her past with whom she had some sort of relationship with, but not always. Sometimes the fantasy of that ideal will make a mental impression and sometimes a brief, seemingly insignificant, encounter with an ideal man may be enough to imprint on her psyche. 

Five Minutes of Alpha Trumps Five Years of Beta.

Sometimes the smallest brush with an ‘alpha’ male is enough to trigger the ‘what if?’ possibilities of consolidating on a guy like that. This might be one-night sex, the one guy in the foam cannon party on spring break in her wilder college years, or even just a missed opportunity to fully develop a hoped-for connection at a social gathering. The ‘Missed Connections’ forum on Craig’s Lists are filled with these regrets. All that matters is that the guy, knowingly or not, instilled a sense of Hypergamous urgency that she just knew represented a prospect for consolidating on that ideal.

An Alpha Widow can also be ‘widowed’ from the fantasy of her ideal male. This is fairly common among women who marry early in their Party Years. Most feel like they missed out on having made a good Hypergamous choice (or had it made for them by circumstance or social pressures). That missed opportunity leads some women to be widowed from the fantasy of an Alpha who would have been a better choice. Thus, an ideal Alpha mental model is what she pines for. An interest in romance literature is usually exaggerated in this type of widow. The formulaic stories are a form of vicarious fulfillment of an unrealized Hypergamous ideal. I should also add, this this widow, when married, is a prime demographic audience for divorce porn fantasies.

In any of these instances what’s at issue is the fact that women’s mating strategy always moves them towards a “better-than-merited” SMV exchange and a psychological fixation on the man, or the type of man who best embodies it. It’s as if a woman’s Id is imprinted with the model of the optimal Hypergamous pairing (evolution-wise a life or death proposition) and believes that only in recreating it will that male again save her life. This is the source of that unconscious pining.

Social Enabling of the Alpha Ideal

In 2019 it has never been easier for a woman to explore her reproductive options with an ever-increasing pool of potential Alphas from which to be widowed from. Since the Sexual Revolution western cultures have done little else than facilitate women’s mating strategies. In terms of “sexual liberation” the goal has always been to ensure provisioning and support – the Beta Bucks side of Hypergamy – in order to give women the impression that they have an indefinite window of time in which to find their optimal Alpha man. We see this reflected in the age of first marriages getting older and older. And in the age of social media women take for granted that they can remain sexually viable if not indefinitely, then at least as long as a man would. This facility exacerbates the Alpha Widow effect.

Women will fixate on the “one that got away”, but today we have social conventions in place to pander to that predictable insecurity in women. In fact, there are numerous industries that now thrive on exactly this.

Ladies, will you ever find your soulmate? Our Life-Coaching, our 12 step plan, our positivity training, our magic personality test will help you find him today.

I should add here that the very concept of a soulmate began with women pining for their bygone ideal man. That ‘One’ is much easier to justify cheating with, or agonizing over, if you mix in the metaphysical to aid in rationalizing it. The popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey and Eat, Pray, Love also find their root in the Alpha Widow dynamic. Popular culture tells women they are entitled to that ideal soulmate; and the only way they can remain true to themselves, the only way to live their best lives (even the life they believe God meant for them), is to pursue the ‘ONE that got away.’

The Plan B mating strategy is another social convention that forgives women of the consequences of pursuing that Alpha ideal while concurrently holding on to her next best male option. And lastly, the ongoing normalization of a female-initiated Polyandry is also a social convention predicated on allowing women to hedge their Hypergamous bets with respect to finding that Hypergamous ideal mate.

Misconceptions

The following are a couple of the more common misconceptions critics like to presume is meant by “Alpha Widow”. For the most part these are attempts to straw man the phenomenon with no real interest in how anyone came to understanding the dynamic. 

Alpha Widows are the result of “players” who fiendishly used these poor impressionable women before they left them high & dry

Blue Pill conditioned White Knights in particular use this to build their own heroic narrative around women. Of course, not all women are victims of the Alpha they were widowed by. The first part of this misconception is the presumption that no woman would volunteer for her own widowing; the second is that an Alpha “Player” was implicit in his motives to thoroughly imprint himself upon her. The truth is that any seduction requires a willing participant (Art of Seduction, Greene) and in accordance with women’s mating strategy women will eagerly participate in their own seduction. These are Alpha Widows, not rape survivors. 

The misconception is that the woman being widowed was somehow traumatized by her former lover. The truth is that the more positive the experience was for her the more impactful the widowing is likely to be. If women didn’t think fondly of the “one that got away” she wouldn’t be an Alpha Widow in the first place. The emotional despair some women feel over that Alpha is usually the result of having missed pairing in the long term with a better prospective man than the lesser man she settled on by necessity. 

This is an easy misconception for most Blue Pill men to follow along with because often enough women will refer to their ‘asshole ex boyfriend(s)’ as the man (men) who was responsible for her being damaged. Women in their Epiphany Phase will usually incorporate into it some narrative of their having been used by the Bad Boy Jerk who came before the Nice Guy Beta they found it necessary to settle on. This damaged narrative then locks in with a woman wanting to “do things the right way this time”. Women will often use this narrative as a failsafe to excuse their hesitancy to be as sexually available to the Beta as she was with the Alpha she was widowed from. So, you get a Saving the Best situation for the Nice Guy in the relationship and he’s apt to believe her claims of being damaged by the asshole who had her before he did.

Self-righteous Beta men love this damaged by the Player narrative because it allows them constant opportunities to prove to his woman how positively different he is compared to the asshole Alpha she’s still covertly pining for.

• “Alpha Widows” are just men making shit up and thinking the worst of women because they’re bitter and burned.

Yes, it is entirely possible that despondent Incels may exaggerate the phenomenon of the Alpha Widow to rationalize their giving up on women. This still doesn’t invalidate phenomenon. This misconceptions is generally dropped by critics of the Red Pill who’d rather attack the source than have to address a concept that rattles their comfortable Blue Pill understanding of women. That said, I understand how it might be convenient to disqualify the concept based on the bitterness of the individual piecing together why his wife or girlfriend still seems to be having a relationship with her ex even if just in her head. Self-loathing Incels will then use this as an excuse to give up for the same reason they believe Hypergamy is this insurmountable obstacle to their connecting with juice they don’t want to bother squeezing for.

For the record, no, not all women turn into Alpha Widows. All women are Hypergamous, but buffers and learned self-control have historically been the checks and balances needed to protect against this Alpha Widow dynamic. The problem is that these buffers are popularly considered sexual repression of women today. Women simply wont police the worst aspects of their mating strategy and any interference, personal, political or social, that would prevent a woman from exercising her Hypergamous sexuality is viewed as misogynist, sexist repression.

Statistically women with more sexual partners have a higher incidence of divorce and find it more difficult to form healthy attachments in LTRs based on their partner count. Men do not appear to follow these stats or dynamics, why?

Because men and women have different evolved mating strategies and priorities. Men, it appears, have a much easier time compartmentalizing the sex act and separating it from the emotional aspect women apply to sex. Men’s obsession with pornography is a good illustration of this, but it is reflective of the differences in our evolved mating strategies developed in our ancestral past. Men found it necessary to breed quickly and then move out – ejaculate and evacuate.

However, in a social order where Hypergamy is unbuffered women have more access to more men and have more opportunities to be imprinted by Alpha men while in their peak fertility years than in any other era before. This abundance of reproductive opportunities, and a lack of any social stigma or moral reservations are putting women into a position where their Blue Pill husbands turn their denial into hate for the ‘Players’ who violated and ruined their ‘soulmate’ before he came into her life. They refuse to acknowledge that in most cases his girl eagerly chose to give herself to the man she told her husband was a ‘Player’ from her past.

Blue Pill married men have the hardest time accepting the idea that their wives may be Alpha Widows for a man that came before them. They struggle with the possibility their wives gave a part of themselves to a guy that they’ll never experience, so denial and anger becomes their ego’s protection.

They throw shade at the men who have the Game to seduce women (who enjoy the seduction as well) because they “ruin women for great guys like him”. Thus, they turn it into a moral issue for those men or a personality flaw because it absolves their wives of their modern mating choices.

– Illustration, Stefan Schmidtz

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

441 comments on “Alpha Widows

  1. A simple example of an alpha widow for any newbs here: I once had a girlfriend whose ex was a married, famous bass player who regularly appeared on Japanese TV. After the years-long affair ended there was no way she could ever give her heart to another man, except in the unlikely case that a similarly sexy celebrity decided to date her in her late 30s.
    It’s fine to date such women, but don’t start believing that she’s really ‘grown up’ and will happily settle for a reliable, kindly systems engineer who’d make a great dad. She will never be content again, but she probably will not know why and blame it all on you for not loading the dishwasher properly even though she’s told you which way the cutlery should go a thousand times before.
    Can you imagine her breaking the bass player’s balls like that? Now you’re getting it.

  2. Great post RM

    I have a question. I have a challenge parsing this sentence, “…or they left them to pursue a new relationship with an old flame.”

    Are you suggesting a woman who intentionally left a guy is now regretting it or the guy left her for an old flame?

    Thanks

    I got this concept clearly from two of RM earlier posts. I have created two alpha widows.

    One was my first girlfriend, who was a bit older than me, had had several boyfriends, one of whom she always spoke highly of his sexual prowess. After I broke up with her, we remained friends, and she had her (now I know “beta bucks”) boyfriend be interviewed by me for quality before she got serious with him, and eventually married with two kids, and has actively kept in touch with me even though she lives 3 states away. The way she keeps in touch is very telling. She pines for me in a way that is reasonable. “You know I will always love you”, etc. She sends texts about 1-2 times per year reminiscing and asking how I am doing, during our special dates, etc. This is 24 years later).

    The second one was a co-worker I felt a strong sexual energy with early on. She was married with kids, and just adored me from day one. She was literally my secretary as well as Jr. peer. On a business trip she came to my door in lingerie and I rebuffed her. (Yes, the blue pill indoctrination from the single mom upbringing was holding steady at that time). She also pings me occasionally for plausibly professional reasons. “Did I see you at that trade show?”, etc. This is a powerful thing.

  3. Yep, and this is the core conflict that women will experience across their entire lives. They desperatly need both an arousing alpha and a provider in ONE man. I can understand that desire, but as we all know this is an IMPOSSIBLE objective. And hence the alpha widow when she settles on the beta provider but still craves the alpha arouser. I genuinenly feel sorry for women, as its a desire that is inherent in their nature, but impossible to deliver. God was a realy cheeky basterd when he threw that curve ball into the mix ..

  4. Yes, the straw man is probably the most resorted-to fallacy used by people who wrestle with evidence, logic, truth (with all the limits that there are to these, they’re still our best bet towards self-knowledge and personal development).

    **

    By the way, still on self-knowledge, I wonder if the army of females who have as their first requirement for a date “Must make me laugh” know the translation into reality of that: “He must make my v***** s**k”. I’d bet they don’t.

  5. @Rudd

    Part of delevoping is to get oneself to desire things more related with reality than one previously did desire.
    You may wish that they develop a bit, rather than feeling sorry.
    But it’s a tough proposition to develop while having the boots licked, and being targeted by infantilising, interested propaganda from all directions all the day.

  6. @GW

    Neither of your interpretations.
    The men reported on the forum that their wives had left them to pursue an old flame (of the wives’).

  7. I’ve had an ex sexting me while she was on her Fucking honeymoon 😬 I was away also at the time she was asking if I was tan and asked me to send her a nude shower pic!

    Another

  8. Update

    The marriage lasted about 2 years and she told me he couldn’t keep up with her sexually.

    While they were engaged she was in a training course in my city and asked me to stay in her hotel with her, I was up for it but unfortunately work commitment took me out of town while she was here and I never followed it up.

    Alpha widows are Real and they are everywhere.

  9. I remember Rollo writing that Betas ( who are unknowingly being settled for) often Lament at having not met their “soulmate” earlier, as they are totally oblivious to the fact that if they had she likely would have wanted fuck all to do with him as she was busy sport fucking Alphas who wouldn’t commit to her.

    Bitter pill to swallow when the truth comes out.

  10. You are not a red pill, I’m honestly not sure if you ever were. You don’t seem to have any history in psychology and you don’t seem to really dive any level of depth into behavioral causes or their effects. Just what I can tell based on reading some of your material. Even better anyone who doesn’t like or agree with you is automatically purple or blue pill, lovely.

  11. @ playdontplay

    Why do you want him banned ? Thats such a beta response mate.

    If youre confident in your view you sure would not give a fuck if some guy had a different perspective.

  12. @ Rudd

    You need to improve your reading comprehension.

    He’s attacking Rollos psychology credentials after “reading some of your material “ he’s just a fucking idiot probably with a psychology degree or some shit who’s come here trying to look clever.

    Rollo has helped many men on this site and others where is this guys body of work to come here and start talking shit?

    Couldn’t give a Fuck what he thinks of my comments or if you think I’m Beta.

    It’s mind over matter, I don’t mind because you don’t matter.

  13. Is it possible that having capitalized on her optimal sexual strategy,of af & bb combination that she will then try to fit this same man in a blue pill box to avoid loss,because of dread?

    “Women simply wont police the worst aspects of their mating strategy and any interference, personal, political or social, that would prevent a woman from exercising her Hypergamous sexuality is viewed as misogynist, sexist repression.”

    Can this feature of hypergamy be the cause of abuse to her male children,even to the point of destroying his innate sexuality?

  14. Bravo RT. Nailed it. I still live with my AW until the last two kids make their way out of the nest. It has been worth it for me, knowing how the alternative way works to screw the dad.

    Oddly, it has been entertaining, watching her. It is a study in AW dynamics, where the Hallmark Channel movies provide the nightly fantasy escape. Poor girl.

  15. @Playdontpay

    Well, they are repulsed the most when their male commodities are nearest/for the most time with them, so it’s consistent with what one should expect.

    The ones I dealt with in the past flirted/sexted until the hour they signed the marriage contract; self-regard protection commanded them to forget who I even was (and of course forget they were messaging, and what about) as from the signature time.
    You know, those where ladies of morals.

  16. @Rudd

    “@ playdontplay

    Why do you want him banned ? Thats such a beta response mate.

    If youre confident in your view you sure would not give a fuck if some guy had a different perspective.”

    That’s 50% of what this site has always been about — and what being red-pill has always been about.
    Not easy at all, not easy at all to many people.

  17. Banned?!!!

    Hell I think that some of those posts provide a bit of comic relief from time to time. Bravo “dots”!

  18. Rollo

    “For the record, no, not all women turn into Alpha Widows. All women are Hypergamous, but buffers and learned self-control have historically been the checks and balances needed to protect against this Alpha Widow dynamic.”

    It seems the biggest obstacle to Alpha Widowhood is just the absence of contact with any Alpha. Nice Guy – Soy Guy – Good Guy etc. Etc.

    No five minutes.

    Which suggest that there is a threshold level required, not merely the high water mark. Which may be quite low indeed…

    Nikolai – great comment!

    That kind sad face family dog gets kicked, never the stray pit…

  19. Rollo has definitely hit on something here.

    Years downrange, even after children and having married well, a few seem astonishingly firmly truly “stuck” somehow – and paradoxically the more fleeting was the romance, the more firmly is the attachment.

    Was always baffling. “Imprinting” is right.

  20. “You are not a red pill, I’m honestly not sure if you ever were. You don’t seem to have any history in psychology and you don’t seem to really dive any level of depth into behavioral causes or their effects. Just what I can tell based on reading some of your material. Even better anyone who doesn’t like or agree with you is automatically purple or blue pill, lovely.” (three dolts)

    well okay, YOU explain it, smart girl

  21. @Rollo: classic concept, worth revisiting. And linked to the concept of “Saving the Best”, which is probably the most memorable post for me.

    You have here a paragraph about men (the one about “ejaculate and evacuate”). Strictly speaking I think it would be correct to say Alpha Widowing is a phenomenon exclusive to women, as it is a consequence of Hypergamy. I’d definitely counter there can be a similar effect to Alpha Widowing on men – maybe in men it comes as a version of One-itis?

  22. The truth is that any seduction requires a willing participant (Art of Seduction, Greene) and in accordance with women’s mating strategy women will eagerly participate in their own seduction.

    This is an unthinkable thought to traddies. He must think, for sanity’s sake, she refused to fellate all her other lovers too.

  23. @ three dots – on taking further thought (really wish comments were modifiable),

    “You don’t seem to have any history in psychology …”
    Actually, Rollo has earned a degree in psychology, one of two degrees (at the moment forget what is the other).

    “. . . you don’t seem to really dive any level of depth into behavioral causes or their effects.”
    Actually he does, and quite thoroughly – suggest reviewing his extensive writings on evolutionary biology/psychology for starters.

    The “alpha widow” phenomenon does exist – not within the hallowed walls of academe perhaps, but most certainly in the real world. The evidence is ubiquitous. Rollo simply had the impropriety to consciously notice it through observation.

    So – most sincerely: with your apparent sophistication and great learning, please do explain the phenomenon.

    I go now.

  24. Effective spears were in use at least half a million years and the atlatl twenty thousand years before the discovery of ballistics.

    The falcon still lacks any understanding of ballistics or aeronautical science at all.

    Is a puzzlement.

  25. Commenting on Rollo’s Twitter feed:

    “There were some strong showings from the more marginal candidates, though none achieved a breakout moment.” –The Economist

    “Tulsi Gabbard DESTROYED DNC Crony Kamala Harris’ Campaign in Two Minutes.” –Tim Pool

  26. I know a girl just like this.

    First met her when she was 22, cute, but, not my type.

    She had a typical, nice guy, boyfriend who she was living with in his house.

    Last summer, she went on a “girls only” trip to Las Vegas with her sister and went to a show called Aussie Heat.

    There, she met and banged one of the dancers.

    She was so infatuated with him that she flew to Vegas three more times to hookup with him.

    She dumped her nice guy boyfriend and moved out of his house.

    Last month, she went again to Vegas and returned crushed as her Aussie Heat Hunk told her he was allegedly moving back to Australia.

    I’ve only talked to her a couple of times since then, but, clearly, she still thinks about him.

    I think she tried to rope me in as “Beta Bux Rebound Guy” but I easily recognized and rebuffed her advance thanks to this site.

    Alpha Widows are real.

  27. @three dots

    You don’t seem to have any history in psychology and you don’t seem to really dive any level of depth into behavioral causes or their effects.

    He does. It’s just that WHEN he does, he is met with people deflecting or denying it. Then those same people say “Look! He’s full of shit! He wasn’t able to MAKE ME AGREE with him.”

  28. I know a girl just like this.

    First met her when she was 23, and cute, and my type.

    I talk to her all the time.

    That was 30 years ago. And I’m still married to her. With red pill lenses, I don’t see the problem.

  29. @ three dots

    You need to start connecting those 3 dots.
    I suggest you start with your nipples and finish with your vagina.

  30. @Rollo. Great stuff man. The more I read TRM the redder my lens becomes. I look at women through their own hypergamy. I cannot remember the last time i felt any ‘butterflies’ when talking to a hot woman.

    There is no anonymosity for women, like MGTOW or an Incel mindset. I am still very sexually attracted to women and want sex but the emotional connection is not there. I feeI no need for it. I used to get ONEitis for any woman who smiled at me.

    I read an excellant quote on a forum by a member, he said ‘When you become a real live boy you stop needing a real live woman’.

    1. Just a reminder: there are only 3 ways to get banned here, blatant spamming, repeat trolling and if I catch you using multiple proxy accounts (sock puppetry) pretending to be someone different.

      And bots, always bots.

  31. She will never be content again, but she probably will not know why and blame it all on you for not loading the dishwasher properly even though she’s told you which way the cutlery should go a thousand times before.

    This is brilliant. The Ballad of the Blue Pill Beta Man. He will likewise not know what’s wrong, because he’s made double sure every time to put the cutlery in there exactly as she told him. He will try to show her. It will make her angry.

    1. It’s true, I don’t have a doctorate or even a masters in psych, just a lousy BS, a BFA and about 25 years of personal interest in intersexual dynamics, evo-psych and behaviorism.

      But critics only want to poison the well with credentialism. It’s the only way they can avoid addressing the actual topics for which they have no counter arguments.

      It’s kind of ironic that the same critics who want to tell you colleges are a scam, a huge source of consumer debt, produce useless degrees, are infiltrated by feminists and SJWs are also the same critics who’ll ask you where you went to college when they disagree with a point you made that challenges their ideology.

  32. Blue pill trad con provider males have the most ego investment in denial of the alpha widow dynamic. They try to re-brand themselves as “alpha providers”. If you try to discuss it they will hate you and say you are the one with the problem. Which kind of sucks when you realize half your male friends are divorced through no real fault of their own except they were too blue pill conditioned.

  33. Hey everyone. I (25M) know this chick (18yr)or almost 2 months as we kept hanging out with mutual friends together and she would always be flirty with me. The moment we met, she wanted to hold hands together, would compliment me, and some other flirty stuff. Yet she would do pretty much the same with our other mutual guy friend some weeks later. My instinct tells me she enjoys being validated and loves to tease guys. Once a guy makes a move on her, she does some “soft reject”, never tells “lets just be friends”. She never reciprocates kino, when I touch her, she moves her hand away. Asked her to give me a massage as a favor when I did something to her and she refused to do it. Also, she does mention her ex from time to time. They broke up 4 months ago. So to me, these signs (refusal to kino being MAIN one) is clear that she is not interested. Am I right?

    I believe she is a female version player. She who gets that get high from knowing that they have won over the guy, and they are no longer interested in him. Thus making seducing new prospects much more entertaining.

    What to do now? To me, she is clearly not interessted in me sexually, just as a guy to get emotional satisfaction from. Please share your similar stories if you have, because this hurts me now lol. I want to completely forget her but can’t, bitch seduced me.

    Thank you for reading.

  34. Great post ! Highly recommended.

    I applaud a @GW (personal experiences) and @Rudd’s comments “…they desperately need both an arousing alpha and a provider in ONE man.”

    Since by def the alpha doesn’t settle..choose wisely. Be the alpha…or the beta (90% of men)

    If you want to have a practice and become a “relationship counselor” guess who are going to be your clients: the 90% which explains the existence of the purple pill.

  35. @Rollo: I wanted to comment on the header image, “Female Narcissus with validational memory”, yet can only come up with “intense”. This one is very striking quite like some of Goldmund’s photographs.

  36. “not all women turn into Alpha Widows.”

    is the top 20% of men also broken down into 80/20 (where 80% of them are duds once they get to fucking or is it more of a gradual spectrum?). it would make sense then that a girl has to fuck 100 dudes before she finds one worth pleasing

    look at your target and ask:

    is she hot enough to attract the sustained attention and top sexual efforts of a top 5% guy??

    if the answer is yes you’re doing it right. proceed with good game and don’t worry about the idea of alpha widows because she’s only a widow until you’ve changed her base comparison experience and as long as she hasn’t been worked over by too many experienced men (boys are different) that should be easy

  37. Is this why I’m starting to have lots of high school and college female aquaintances come out of the woodwork to follow me in Facebook and Instagram, etc.? If so, the jokes on them. While I was a stud then I’m just a burned-out middle-aged single dad now, lol.

  38. “The juice isn’t worth the squeeze, but you still want the juice.” I agree with this statement by Rollo. My quandary is, what man really wants sloppy-2nds, or more like sloppy-22nds today, for some community-property hot bitch 8 or 9? (10’s don’t exist). 8’s and 9’s are deemed now unattainable for most men and if you do obtain one, it’s near impossible to have an LTR with her. How are modern men supposed to feel gracious for a 6/10 or 7/10 in a LTR after already having our SMV maxed-out or near maxed-out)? I don’t want to work my ass off and max-out my SMV for a best-case scenario 7/10 girl. However, I don’t want to be a monk and I don’t want to just have time-consuming and emotionally-consuming flings with attractive girls. That’s just my view, but I don’t think I’m alone. I’ve never been afraid of hard-work or the burden of performance. I work hard for myself and pride regardless.

  39. “are also the same critics who’ll ask you where you went to college when they disagree with a point you made that challenges their ideology.”

    Aw snap!

    https://youtu.be/nU_uO1qZB9E

    I don’t buy the “ever increasing pool of Alphas” comment though.

    The beta pool is increasing. More of one-size-fits-none.

    Women are most concerned that they don’t matter. They’ll swap status, sex and stuff for a legit chance at generation as they are told the former matters. If they can see it, handle it, buy it…thus it must be real. Beta men contribute to that canard.

    Rent to own the world. They learn too late it’s a raw deal. Own the world, lose themselves.

    Women could matter a lot more if they ordered themselves with evo-bio feminine attractive character and the particular, mysterious female baby making ability and intend raising them kids as their own full-time vocation…those types have zero issues finding Alphas.

    That takes faith in generation, intent to live as designed and acceptance of the unknown, all of it as one.

    Order + Surprise = Beauty

    Surprise without Order = Anarchy

    Order without Surprise = Banality

    The closer men and women gravitate to the sexual isoelectric line the more we all look like asystole aka death.

    My grandmother died recently. She remarried after an early death of my grandfather and outlived the second by twenty years. She was remarried twice as long as initially.

    She chose to be buried by my grandfather. It’s where she felt most consequential and alive, order and surprise together. The second time around was more functional…there’s place for that too I guess.

    Be the Alpha if you can, early and often. It’ll serve you long after you literally widow her.

  40. @Sendzo – she’s not attracted to you, and you’re an orbiter in the FriendZone. Very common situation.

    You need to learn Game and get good with women in general. Read Mystery Method, follow the instructions, post some Field Reports to get feedback in the FR section of Rational Male (look at the link on the top of the page), and sleep with 10 other women (as the old PUA saying goes).

    You will be a lot better with women and if this particular girl sees you with other women (particularly other women hotter than her) then your chances of getting her increase dramatically. Even if she is still not interested in you you will have lots of other women.

    For now, just don’t give her any attention or spend time with her (being in a group of friends is fine – but she doesn’t deserve your time or attention directly).

    1. @Culum. Wise advice.

      The devil is in the detail. When a woman makes a comment like ‘I don’t get out that often’, that is trying to appease a man’s empathy and ego. And it does tend to work on the majority of men. Flip the gender dynamic and the man would come across as needy, no options and of low status.

  41. “When a woman makes a comment like ‘I don’t get out that often’, that is trying to appease a man’s empathy and ego. And it does tend to work on the majority of men. Flip the gender dynamic and the man would come across as needy, no options”

    When a woman says this, she is trying to appear as not being a skank, yet horny. It has nothing to do with a man’s empathy and ego. Work on your reading skills.

  42. “she’s not attracted to you, and you’re an orbiter in the FriendZone. Very common situation.”

    True and true. Women have tried to friendzone me twice in my life. In both cases I moved on immediately. You’d be smart to do the same, Sendzo. Don’t ever get fixated on one girl. The number one rule of game is: “Have multiple options.” Also the number two and three rules of game. Not just PUA–it goes for employers as well as girls. Pay attention to your feelings, but don’t cater to your feelings. Realize when your feelings are undermining your best interests. If your feelings are telling you to focus on one girl, they are undermining your best interest of having multiple options. Don’t let your feelings succeed in undermining your best interest. Hence, you need self-control.

    Without self-control, you have no game.

  43. @Wildside

    Anything that women do works with the majority of men (with the problems from self-respecting men that ensue from that).

    It’s the Law of Pn. (They had the Commandments of Pn on another blog, and they were many, but the Law is one.)

  44. @ ehintellect

    “The beta pool is increasing. More of a one-size-fits-none.”

    Nice! Totally agree, I wish I could buy shares in Alpha.

  45. Hello RT, I think that I have a story that takes RP and the AW a bit to the extreme. It involves situations that you have written about, but it may be something that you can gain from, I don’t know. Email me if you are interested.

  46. This just in:

    Samoan Hindu Tulsi Gabbard is a racist (and probably white supremacist) Putin puppet. Her online supporters are actually Russian bots.

    Dear Democratic Socialist women of color, under the new rules of the gender war you have been declared to be toxic masculine far right extremists who must be purged.

    Biden, of course, by standing by Obama’s legacy is a right wing DINO.

  47. Back in my decidedly Blue Pill days I would often have an encounter with women who I believed were giving me the green light in our flirting, talking or whatever. Somewhere in the mix a comment would come from some of these ladies ‘I got hurt by my ex so can we take it slow?’ And I would always think to myself “Yeah? But that guy ain’t me.” In retrospect I would say that I was a Red Pill trying to burst out in a Blue Pill world.

    I wasn’t always successful. And yet the feelings would linger that your past relationships have nothing to do with how I will conduct myself in this relationship. I would still bend on occasion to the Feminists’ rules to be “the nice guy.”

    However there were times when I walked out on this nonsense and never looked back. On the occasional rare time I thought she would call me and try and bring me back – it never happened.

    Women move on and they don’t chase in my experience. So as to the Katy Perry song “the one that got away” My only observation is that Rollo is right in that this is exactly how women, Alpha Widowed, view the experience, only they never really go looking for the Alpha. Or seek him out to profess their true feelings. When he is gone or the relationship hits a bump, if communication is lost, my observation is, women won’t chase.

    I think they prefer to allow the dream to grow and morph in their minds into some unrealistic saga that no one, including the Alpha participant, could ever live up to. Everything gets turned up to eleven.

  48. @Dr. Banner

    Well, counter to what tens of years of propaganda funnelled through all media/education channels have told, they are passive.
    Even when aggressive, they’ll be passive-aggressive and you’ll get the “passive” right there.

    Even when using the de facto legal privileges they have, they’ll use the police, and court orders to take what they please to take and boot you from your house.

    All they do in the “courtship process” that they enjoy (together with the denial of their enjoyiment of it, which they enjoy as well), all they do is watch, see, and wait.

    You basically have a range of responses like this:

    1) Hahahah [= You are playing the mating ritual well]
    2) Hmmmm [= You are playing the mating ritual ill/I am not going to let you play the mating ritual with me]
    3) Hi
    4) Hello
    5) Ok / Ah Okay [= This is kinda a trip-over in the mating ritual from you. If no further errors issue, I might forget this one.]
    6) How are you?

    Naturally, these same people are increasingly issuing warnings to dare not message them with uninteresting/”stupid”/”boring”/”empty” openers, by which they mean the only messages they’ll ever manage to send when they chat.

    The undertones and overtones of “Don’t you think the same rules apply to you and I, I am the prize, you are the labourer who has to work hard and cross his fingers as he hopes for the prize” are all over.

    I wonder if offline dating is a saner business these days.

  49. Okay, I got lost there for a second.

    You’re talking about ” texting/online ” stuff.

    Fortunately I think, I managed to miss the whole smartphone/computer ” dating/sex ” revolution. I think I’ve only snagged…or shagged, 2 or 3 women via an electronic device ( been a long time ). But I do remember that I never qualified myself to any woman, and there’s no need to ever do so. Men must absolutely disabuse themselves of the idea that any particular woman has anything that you actually need.

    But currently society is set up in such a way that men electronically seek women via qualification. This is a very self defeating and bad look, but guys have urges soooo….. I think the solution is that if you must use this electronic fuckery, use it solely to set up a face to face meet with a target.

    Then, Game.

    I’ve been thinking about the OP since Rollo posted it up here. Alpha Widows.

    At first I thought my current wife might have been an alpha widow, except her ex wasn’t alpha really. He wasn’t blue pill either. He’s best described as a masculine asshole with no self awareness or calibration. Lol. But he wasn’t a bad guy.

    The idea of an Alpha Widow fascinates me quite a bit. I think my first wife is an alpha widow, although I’m not certain I check all of the ” Alpha ” boxes ( still fuzzy on what all constitutes ” alpha ” ). I think she has a ” boyfriend ” for the last few years ( I don’t do Facebook or social media all that much, so I don’t keep track of what she’s doing because no reason ), but she went for 10-15 years without one.

    About 5 or 6 years ago I went to pick up my oldest daughter for a trip, and I went to the exes inherited house to pick my daughter up. Shit was awkward. First, ex wanted a hug, then she wanted to take me on a tour of the house. I just wanted to hit the fucking road. After the tour, she teared up. Great. Then she said ” listen, no matter what, you’ll always have a place right here. “.

    I’m trying to suss out how much of this widowhood has to do with just them and their ideals, and how much is just forcefully imprinted on them by overwhelming masculine force, lol. Is it even possible to creat an alpha widow in her frame? I mean, if she’s think ” a man is perfect if he has A, B and C ” and you kick in her door and yell ” D, E, F BITCH!!!!!”, that’s more impactful right? Or am I on the wrong track?

    I’ve always noticed that a lot of chicks from my past keep reaching out to me from time to time. Asking a thousand questions. Last year an old friend of mine tracked me down at home ( kinda scary )and we talked for a long time. I gave him my cell phone number and the very next day I started getting an assload of texts from old female acquaintances asking to meet up. Admittedly I’d forgotten most of them ( accept ” Angie ” because …Damn!! ).

    But is the widowhood all a function of what they had in their head that was somehow met, or is it a function of possibly something she didn’t even know existed at all, and she’s convinced she won’t ever find it again and uses it as a measure for all guys afterwards?

    If it’s all the latter, that’s fucked up. For the other dudes that is.

    I think there’s a lot more widows out in the wild than we even realize. It’s fascinating and I’m gonna drill down on chicks ( no pun intended ) to see if I can get a decent read on the situation. I hear a lot of girls, young and old talking about an ex, or ” that guy “, but at this point I don’t care to listen intently, Gonna have to pay closer attention.

    But I do know that 2 of my sisters are definitely Alpha Widows LMAO, and I don’t care how much they deny it. My oldest sister was A.W.’d by her ex fighter pilot hubby, and my middle sister was W.D.’d by a thuggish shithead. Talk about a spectrum.

  50. @Palma – if you go back and read the threads here through most of 2016, YaReally and Scray had not only figured out this dynamic, they wrote about it quite extensively and talked about how to handle it (basically don’t do online dating, get out there and meet women in person where they can actually experience your attractive qualities in a way that they can’t from a Tinder picture, plus given the dominance of online, you will stand out in real life now (even more so in 2019 than 2016) in a way that a guy approaching her in 1990 would not have).

  51. Best captured in the line from “New Kid in Town” by the Eagles:

    “She will never forget you ’til somebody new comes along…”

  52. Culum

    Lol, scray was a angry asshole that didn’t grasp life as well as he seemed to grasp pua concepts and practices. Yin and yang, he was unbalanced.

    Being older than dating apps, I can see the bullshit thirst components embedded in the idea. But as Palma said correctly, men are told that they need sex and in a lot of minds that seems to justify thirsty actions, especially online.

    The problem I ran into with Yareally was his consistent assertions that young women had 10,000 ” orbiters ” . Nah, they don’t/didn’t, and unless a guy is just lame, ” orbiters ” mean shit when you’re standing right in front of them.

    It’s the whole idea that women hold all the cards and that men are kind of at their mercy. That’s never been accurate, and it’s still not unless a man is some kind of conformist.

    I knew a guy way back in the 70’s that was ” connected ” to the mob ( gotta love Jersey ). I asked him once about how dangerous it was to be associated with ” gangsters ” and he said it was very dangerous, even deadly, but if you’re not associated or doing business with them, you don’t have anything to worry about.

    Online dating is in a woman’s frame above all else. The idea that I’d post pics and information about myself to gain acceptance or approval of any random hoe on the web makes me physically ill.

    Just talk to them and game them and do what you want to do. Men give women say to much credit and power.

    Hence my issues with Ya and his orbiters/flying off with Saudi princes for 10,000$ to get shit on…etc. That mindset comes from being associated with too much online nonsense.

  53. @Palma. ‘What’s Tinder?’ LOL. Love it.

    I used to frequent dating sites/apps and they are a giant waste of time. ‘Why am I trying to qualify myself to these sub-standard women?’ Delete.

    However I had a Russian ‘girlfriend’, living in Moscow in 2017 that I met on some Russian/Ukrainian dating site and I am going to meet a Ukrainian woman in Kyiev and one in Odessa in September from the same app. These women look good.

    It’s a whole different ball game with Slavic women. Western feminism has not corrupted them. Their mindset is very much a conventional understanding of genders. A man should be masculine, the leader in the relationship and protect her. The woman is feminine and will make the man happy if he fulfills his manly duties. Hypergamy it is but it is a lot more clear cut.

    So, since getting involved with a number of Slavic and Eastern European women, my interest for UK women has dropped off the map. It also fits in with my love of travelling.

  54. “The problem I ran into with Yareally was his consistent assertions that young women had 10,000 ” orbiters ”

    Orbiters = Followers on Instagram.

    The 10K number was obviously exaggerated for your typical attractive young girl (not a full time model, still going to school). A more realistic number would be around 1,500 followers.

    This promoter (https://www.instagram.com/alejo_promoternyc/) usually tags the girl’s @ in his posts.

    Check out the comments under this HB6’s (or HB5 I don’t care…lol) (just under 1500 followers) post:

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bn__ZtjBkx1/

    sergeymayboga
    Hi! Your page is outstanding . Lets create together a street style fashion photoshoot in NYC. I’m a Award winning Art photographer based in New York

    newyorknightlife.vip
    We have exclusive parties every week, Rooftops and Nightclubs in NYC!!! We have VIP access and VIP tables for !
    DM if you would like to join us!

    clublivmiami
    Tonight 📱VIP tables & Guest List 🍾Text me

    Imagine the daily/weekly/monthly DMs she gets from club promoters, influencers, photographers, etc. (and she obviously responds to them cause she’s in this promoter’s post).

    Aight you done imagining that?

    Ok, now imagine what a HB9 gets.

    Imagine being that girl’s boyfriend.

    This something none of your wives ever got when they were 21. And they (40 year old+) certainly aren’t getting anywhere close to this kinda attention/offers now lol.

    Just be alpha ™ is very easy to when that’s the case.

    “unless a guy is just lame, ” orbiters ” mean shit when you’re standing right in front of them.”

    True tho.

  55. “I used to frequent dating sites/apps and they are a giant waste of time. ‘Why am I trying to qualify myself to these sub-standard women?’ Delete.

    However I had a Russian ‘girlfriend’, living in Moscow in 2017 that I met on some Russian/Ukrainian dating site and I am going to meet a Ukrainian woman in Kyiev and one in Odessa in September from the same app.”

    Ah ok. so you’d much rather qualify yourself to Russian girls than UK girls. got it.

  56. @J

    Of course it’s the man who mast (afford the costs of and) make the trip to her country 🙄

    This is yet another way by which men raise the costs of dating, meeting, sex, relationships for other men.

    Of course when she’s been habituated to have the man hurry to her place at her snaps of fingers, she will perceive as abasing anything attempting at fairness.

  57. @Palmasailor

    “Because there’s such thirst, if a man messages a woman first then he’s not good enough. If he’s better than the last one that messaged her then he becomes the new standard, but he’s still not good enough because there are more where he came from.

    It appears to the woman that there is an incredible demand for her product so she raises the price in her head, and right now it’s in bubble territory.

    Add to that the phenomenon of the carousel. This is an under explored topic. Playdontpay mentioned a few months back that women don’t voluntarily leave the carousel, it ejects them. And once ejected where do they go to? Well there’s only one option and that’s online dating.

    I sometimes dabble with it and i always regret it and delete my profile.”

    Yes, the online sort of has hijacked women’s hypergamous mind, clearly unable to cope with a series of all-new possibilities (real, and more so imagined) and responsibilities.

    There are a number of “reasons” why they just have to stop replying your messages and reject you online.

    And if they don’t, there are a number of “reasons” why they just have to be cross, and overbearing to you online. Not least the perception they have that it is the cool thing that cool women do in the current year, and they don’t want to be left behind.

    So, yes, unless you are in the aesthetically top 10-20% of men, which may afford you a decent-looking treatment, online dating has become a wrangle in the mud, with women unable to cope with it, and venting out their frustration on whomever tries to treat them decently.

    Not a few of them soon delete their own profiles, or never log in again, completely ignorant that if no man found there is no-cheater that is because female online behaviour will crush the morale of any man not alien to decency.
    (Again: this may vary a lot if you are in the top 20%, or 10% of men for attractiveness.)

  58. “Online dating” is a oxymoron.

    ” . . . she’s been habituated to have the man hurry to her place at her snaps of fingers . . .”

    More generally, if you’re spending more than an hour traveling just to see a woman you’re probably doing it wrong.

    “Of course it’s the man who mast (afford the costs of and) make the trip to her country . . .”

    This is only part, and the least important part, of the story. What she is doing is fishing for a man to pay for her to come to his country. That is the sole point of a woman being on an international dating site. There are plenty of thirsty betas within walking distance of where she is right now, but she wants to get out of that place.

  59. “So often on these dating sites it’s some fat bloke called igor that’s posted pictures of his sister.”

    Yes, that’s the other problem. Most of the international dating sites aren’t.

    “I worked in Moldova for a bit . . .”

    I have some ancestors who came from that part of the world. That’s why I was born in America. Tell the Ukrainicorn that you aren’t bringing her to New York City, that you’re going to move to Odessa to be with her, and watch how fast she dries up and blows away.

  60. “Tell the Ukrainicorn that you aren’t bringing her to New York City, that you’re going to move to Odessa to be with her, and watch how fast she dries up and blows away.”

    lol.

  61. “This something none of your wives ever got when they were 21. Just be alpha ™ is very easy to when that’s the case.

    You’re right. My wife was being hit on in person by charming, handsome doctors and wealthy hospital admins and various hospital staff in person when she was 30. (Betas would approach women back then a lot more than today. Betas had better game.) Not by fast-talking New York promoters and photographers. Plus ca change….

    Mrs. Gamer has never needed much validation because she knew that she was beautiful.

    Since betas have less game, it’s easier to be alpha today.

  62. For that matter, if all you want is to meet Ukrainian girls, just hang out around mid-town 5th Ave and help them use the sucker’s credit card.

  63. Johnnie Libertine

    Kind of, kind of depends…if I’m around, no way in hell. And if I’m not around, Mrs. Gamer will run away, run away! Chances are better if I’m around, because then Mrs. Gamer will stay and enjoy charming men. Last time a charming man hit on her, she refused him a second dance and Mrs. Gamer stared at me with eyes begging me to save her.

    Some of you all know a lot that ain’t so. All girls are like that, except when they have been properly trained. Girls can recognize high SMV men and avoid them if they choose to. Alpha widows will sometimes run from strange alphas.

  64. That is the sole point of a woman being on an international dating site. There are plenty of thirsty betas within walking distance of where she is right now, but she wants to get out of that place.

    Precisely.

    If she is actually real, she’s looking to get out and/or gold-dig. Otherwise she dates locally.

    There are no short cuts guys. Really, there aren’t.

  65. J

    Young men should STOP paying attention to Instagram and Shit like that, because it’s got nothing to do with one’s situation, and most of it is bullshit waste of time.

    Instagram ain’t life.

    I have a goddaughter that has xx,xxx followers. If you believe her posts, she’s just setting the globe. The truth is she travels with her mom and other family members ( they pay ) and she’s broke af.😂

    But she’s admittedly a hot girl, so it seems thousands of other folks want to believe the fakeitude.

    I took her to the shore with me and the fam a.few years ago, and in Instagram it looked like she was solo, lazing by the pool with drinks. Hundreds of idiots were blowing her up with likes or whatever.

    But in reality, and couldn’t afford a bag of popcorn. POsting up pics of lobsters I bought.😂

  66. I’m sure you’re a big boy but watch what you’re doing in Odessa. You’re the mark down there.

    Palma calls it. Any one that reads here regularly will enjoy better odds, but make no mistake, marking out westerners for true love scams is a sophisticated industry. Insert any one of 50 exotic place names from the ‘other side’ of the old Iron Curtain and it still works. Many venues in East Asia and the Latin Americas work just as well. Wherever there are striking, foreign (to a westerner), women that are dressed in feminine clothes and are nice to a man.

    When western man leaves his home ground, where he at least sort of understands the nuances, the facial expressions and gestures, and can read between the lines in social settings; and shows up in a place where he doesn’t easily recognize any of that – he is vulnerable to being well played.

    Young men that join the military and find themselves in these locations for often the first time in their lives are the poster boys for this. You can’t talk most of them out of literally marrying various prostitutes and con artists, who will ride that ticket to the promised land then zero out our hapless hero.

  67. Wild side

    Second all of kfg’s comments…

    First search for “Mitch Purple Pill” here…

    Second let me tell you about a Bulgarian 9 I gamed here in the US. She had Time Square billboard up, lingerie model. Had been in a few movies.

    But that was AFTER she got here.

    Before that she was just a pretty girl in a little town. Who then put herself up for auction on a bride site. Part of the game was having prospects come meet her and her family. Because demure right?

    And she cycled through a bunch of millionaires and centamillionaires , cause they all showed up with “gifts” for her AND her family.

    Eventually she chose an American who would support her ambitions. So six months in he is now paying for her apartment in NYC, because ambitions. And her allowance etc.

    Within two years divorced. Once she had opportunity via industry…

    Dude still thirsty for her.

    So yeh tell her you are moving to her country and see how this hyper feminine girl reacts…

    1. @palma. I’m just going to Odessa to see where Battleship Potemkin was filmed 🙂

      There’s a hell of a lot of assumptions that go on in this forum.

  68. ASD

    Ha. We’ve been through this before. Ya gots lucky Mr. Doctor wasn’t alpha and didn’t make a move. You did say she was attracted to him.

    J.

    Undoubtedly girls are being spammed more via tech. Sure. But 80% of those girls are marks and aren’t getting th3 free shit promised. It’s all one way action mostly.

    FWIW back in college I was recruited by an attractive middle aged woman to rep her “modeling school”… Which entailed me getting a fat stack of business cards and license to go walk up to all the hotties with an open “(discerning/questioning look) Hey. Are you with an agency? Modeling. No? You know I think you might have the right look. (Card) Give us a call.”

    Now the school was basically a scam, pay here and we will send yout shit pics to someplace thing. But it was great fun.

  69. C’mon Blax. I’m older than dating apps too – I’m 40, not 25. And I have to agree with @j here.

    We’ve had this discussion before, but for the record:

    The playing field has changed. The tactics need to change with it. The strategies don’t change – they are timeless. Men are still men and women are still women.

    Same way that “war” has always been “men killing each other” – that’s timeless and strategies haven’t changed. Courage is timeless. But tactics have changed – which is why armies no longer fight with bows, sabers and cavalry charges.

    Yes, strategy is timeless and the core principles don’t change. But they are expressed and applied in different ways – ie, the tactics change. We shouldn’t confuse the two or we risk thinking nothing has changed, and that’s a very dangerous path to go down, because it risks leading a cavalry charge against the helicopter gunship with a mounted machine gun..

    (and Scray wasn’t an asshole by any stretch of the imagination – argumentative yes, wrong on some things especially relating to marriage – sure, but he was bang on with all the Game stuff and no asshole).

  70. @ Sentient

    Maybe law is three years of marital union residing in the US, not two, for the woman to get her US citizenship.

  71. Culum

    Lol, nah scray was mentally damaged. All the pua understanding in the world didn’t fix his issues.

    Short man complex.

    Mixed race complex.

    Anger issues related to parenting.

    All of his pua stuff did nothing for that and seemed to make him Hate women, so add another mental issue to the list.

    YaReally used to repeat that ” things have changed ” all the time, and I never argued that things haven’t changed, but it’s the degree of actual change, not what is projected as giant obstacles and the overstatement of the environment ( strictly clubs and bars ).

    It’s the boosting up of females that I disagreed with then and now. The ” nothing has changed ” argument isn’t one that I’ve tried to make in the way that Ya used to ” lol ” at. My main argument is and was that society and social media is giving females a ( false ) leg up, and the main reason it seems to work is because men accept it and play along or get hamstrung by it.

    Which comes back to thirst.

    And most of all of this is bullshit at the end of the day. The landscape has changed into some kind of fairy tale/fantasy land where there’s a lot of false pretense and shit. My advice has always been Do Not Participate With The Wrong Mindset, or Don’t Be A Sucker.

    And like I told Ya back then, I don’t know where he lives that women are all hold up in seclusion 6 days a week and they can only be found Friday or Saturday nights in a club. Narrowing your options narrows your options, and it skews what you see or think you see.

    I will never buy into the ” big scary wimminz ” scenario until I take a dirt nap, because it’s not real. They posses a nature, social media and orbiters aside. If not, pua wouldn’t work at all unless a guy was a well dressed, rich fantasy.

    Don’t believe the hype.

  72. @Rudd

    “… God was a realy cheeky basterd when he threw that curve ball into the mix ..”

    I was pretty much in agreement with everything you said before this last line: God didn’t make no “mistake”.

    Ever read GENESIS in the Bible and you’d know who made the “mistake”…

    Also, all men can develop themselves to being better versions and/or ultimately the “best version” of themselves so they can be the “arousing Alpha and dependable Beta” man women desire.

    Any red pill man really into self development knows the goal is an “endless goal” to be the best man they can be always challenging and pushing themselves in all areas of their lives to be their best.

    Any such man will definitely attract the interest in many females.

    That’s basically what the core of “The Rational Male” is from what I get here: For men to recognize and accept the facts of reality of life and do the best they can with their card deck to create the best lives for themselves and others in their lives.”

    All of us men here can aspire to that. It’s “universal” the world over.

    Peace…

    ~ Bro. Jed

  73. “A good player doesn’t hit a woman in front of her husband.”

    I:) f you hit any woman, plenty of white knights will attack you.

    A woman who is well-trained will run away from “good players.” If work requires them to speak with you, they will avoid making much eye contact. Your chance to grab their RAS will be strictly limited. And they will be uncomfortable around you, no matter what you say.

  74. “Ya gots lucky Mr. Doctor wasn’t alpha and didn’t make a move.”

    He did, before I met Mrs. Gamer, then he moved away. The doc was married and wanted to set Mrs. Gamer up as a mistress. Mrs. Gamer went for a ride early a.m. in his vette, but declined his invitation to visit him late night in the doctors’ lounge. Lots of flirting but no logistical isolation. Mrs. Gamer was strictly a tease. I know that she was virgin, obviously.

    There was another doc whom Mrs. Gamer had a crush on. Don’t know if he made a move or not, but Mrs. Gamer avoided him outside of her unit.

    To successfully seduce a woman, you have to grab her RAS and obtain compliance leading to logistical isolation and sex. A woman can defeat that if she’s an alpha widow. If a woman is an alpha widow, she won’t easily forget her alpha mate.

  75. @palma

    I turned 21 in 2010, so I kind of missed out on that going out culture that you talked about in 90s/early 2000s. I caught the tail end of it for a few years, but was in a long term relationship for about 4 years from 2012-2016 and most recently had a short term fling with a 21 year old which lasted about 8 months.

    Dating apps seem impossible and as you noted, the ROI is terrible. Bumble, while a seemingly decent idea in theory, puts women in a less than ideal position as the hunter. When they don’t get the top men they think they deserve, they become resentful and as you mention, take it out on people who are probably much closer (if not even a bit higher) to their own SMV.

    I’ve deleted this app multiple times and for some reason (probably out of boredom) keep coming back. For the second time now, I’ve matched with this girl I swiped on. My guess is she won’t reach out to me, but it seems somewhat odd she’d match again. I routinely get matches that fizzle out and never go anywhere, as these girls aren’t messaging first as they are supposed to.

    A good friend of mine met his wife on EHarmony and another buddy I believe met his gf on bumble. So when I discuss the dating scene with them, they all default to the same question that you were asked “are you on any apps??!”. My buddy’s gf seemingly holds it against me, since they met on an app and she thinks Im limiting my options.

    Girls are inundated with hundreds of matches, messages and inquiries on a weekly basis and seem to think it’s the same for guys.

    Real life approaches are obviously better and seemingly the only real place to get any return. But as you mentioned, it just seems as if women aren’t going out anymore (or as much). Or if they are, it’s with a friends circle or with some orbiters they have and those situations offer different challenges.

    I was at a baseball game about a month ago where I saw a group of girls I wanted to talk. I sat in front of them as their was a spot open in the bleachers and all I had to do was look back at this cute blonde twice and she tapped me on the shoulder. Easy open. We ended up back at her place but she wasn’t truthful about the guy that she supposedly “broke up with her ex, but he’s really in love with her” and she asked me to leave when he called her at midnight.

    Anyway, long story short, dating apps are largely a waste of time.

    1. @BigWill. I created an account on eHarmony and it told me it could not match me with anybody. Absolute truth. Good day! It’s always a good talking point with women.

      However I am on a a slavic dating site with Ukranian prostitutes.. Pavel said he would be very happy for me to marry his sister as long as I give him my credit card number.

  76. Wildside, I have danced with thousands of women. I have opened thousands of women. I’ve flirted with hundreds of women. Hundreds of women have indicated interest in me beyond dancing. I’ve been with Mrs. Gamer for decades. AWALT. If you have been with a woman a long time and have been paying attention, you can learn a lot about women. I’ve had two daughters and I’ve seen night and day.

    I’m an expert on relationships and women’s emotions. Not so much on what STDs feel like or on what it feels like to get dumped. Check out J for those questions. (Luv ya, J, lol.)

    Sitting here in a hotel and two women are trying to get my attention this a.m. by getting into my vision and working around me. Hotel staff. Friendly, but don’t meet my standards.

  77. @palma

    As far as my friend’s gf, she thinks that I’ll meet someone if I just keep trying online dating. Because i said I wasn’t on any apps she takes a “what do you expect” stance. Which is fine, but she’s not looking at it from the man’s perspective.

    As far as the girl from the game, I escalated and we were in her bedroom. We had been making out since the bar and I’ve closed same night lays before. She checked her phone and started crying and asked me to leave. When she was out in the hallway, she had her phone on speaker phone and that’s when I heard a guy on the other line say “hey babe, what’s wrong?”. Most bizarre night of my life. She texted me the next morning apologizing for freaking out but nothing ever came of that night. She suggested we meet again, but I’ve had radio silence when I tried to set a meet up. So i gave up on her.

  78. ASD

    You left off you laid one woman. 😆

    Look. I’ll stipulate you are an expert. At asking women to dance and dancing.

    Go shake a leg.

    Wild side

    I see women out every time I go out. So not sure about this “going out culture”. In any event hit girls are always going to be in groups, usually mixed sets.

    Mystery grasped this. Guys are ugly girls. Game away.

  79. @palma

    Yeah you’re correct. My buddy is in a laughable situation with this chick. He went on a date with her in January of this year and she was on a “break” with her ex. Instead of moving on with my buddy, she went back to her ex and got engaged to him. So knowing all this, my buddy (he’s 34 so my guess is he’s in panic mode to lock a girl down smh), got contacted by her a few months later as she had broken off the engagement with him and wanted to date my friend. He was all about it and they are together still. Idk man, not my ideal situation..

    My buddies’ gf (lets call her Sara) has a friend (lets call her Emily) who went to the same HS I went to and she thinks the world of me. Emily wanted to set me up with one of her friends (a very attractive 25 year old) but her friend was on and off with a “douchebag” as Emily described him and went back to this guy. So I told Sara and Emily, that I wouldn’t want to date this chick because I would feel as if I was back burner option and she had an opportunity when she was single to move on and date someone new. Sara thought that was ridiculous, but Emily completely understood.

    In talking to the girl from the game, we talked for about 15 minutes at the game and met up at the bar. I had pre-selection working as a girl in that group I knew from HS and she and I we were good friends back in 07/08. The group consisted of about 5 other girls, 4 who were married and one who was going off to see some other guy.

    Anyway, none of them were rude or trying to cock block at all. In fact they were very nice and encouraged her. It just seems that she wasn’t really cleanly broken up with this guy and when things started getting serious, she bailed on me. We were only at the bar for about half an hour and I was only at her apartment for about 15 minutes as well. We were both tipsy, so im sure that played into it as well.

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