Open Hypergamy

As I wrote in Controlling Interests, the secrecy previously necessary for hypergamy and women’s pluralistic sexual strategy is rapidly being replaced with not just a new, overt, social openness about it, but a flaunting, triumphalism about how men are expected to embrace this new openness about it.

These would be the boys / men who would be taught to “naturally” defer to the authority of women under the auspices of a desire to be an equal partner.

These are the men raised privately and created socially to be ready for women, “when it comes time to settle down, and find someone who wants an equal partner.”

These would be the men ready to expect and accept a woman’s proactive cuckoldry of him in the name of being a pro-feminine equal.

These are the men raised to accept an open form of hypergamy in place of the selling to an old-order Beta provisioning model.

As in this Red Robin commercial, it’s gotten to the point now that the Feminine Imperative is comfortable in ridiculing men for not already being aware of the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks dynamic of hypergamy, as well as ridiculing them for going along with it anyway.

The expectation that men should already know this dynamic and be ready to accept it, and commit himself to it, engenders genuine shock when a man deviates from that script. As we found with the story of the Spreadsheet Guy a couple weeks ago, the anger female commenters expressed over his logging his wife’s excuses for turning him down sexually was not due to his actions, but rather what those actions represented for the greater whole of men.

Women’s indignation over this was rooted in a Beta man not already being aware of the role he was expected to play. The new order fem-groupthink presumes that any guy who follows the old order socio-sexual contract should already know he’s been cast as a dutiful, providing Beta — he follows the prepared script for the guy who responsibly proves he’s a ‘better man’ for having forgiven her sexual indiscretions with prior Alpha’s and accepting the role of being relegated to being her emotional supporter and hand-holder. And all of this after she’s had her “self-discovery” and know who “she really is.”

Genies and Bottles

This expectation of men being preconditioned to follow a feminine-primary social order is not just limited to women’s expectations. We’ve progressed to the point that blue pill men are becoming vocal advocates for this same acceptance of open hypergamy.

Under the dubious pretense of concern for the general lack of gallant, chivalry and Beta Bucks-side provisioning women are entitled to – in spite of women’s embrace of open hypergamy – these watered down ‘purple pill’ “Dating Coaches” suffer from the same shock and indignation that a woman, somewhere, might not be given her life’s due of having a dutiful Beta awaiting to fulfill the provisioning side of her sexual strategy when her SMV begins to decay in earnest.

In a feminine centric social order, even men must be strong advocates for open hypergamy, and essentially their own proactive cuckoldry. That a woman may be better prepared than most Beta men to provide for her own security is never an afterthought – their sales pitch is the same old-order lie that women will reciprocate intimately for a man’s good nature and virtuous respect for the feminine if he’ll only accept open hypergamy.

But Spreadsheet Guy went off the reservation, “how dare he keep track of his wife’s sexual frequency!” The general anger is rooted in his ‘not getting‘ the social convention that sex (for consummate Beta providers) “tapers off after marriage”, but if he would just Man Up and fall back into his supportive, pre-established role, and learn to be a better, more attentive ‘man’ for his wife, she would (logically) reciprocate with more sex.

For what it’s worth, the men women want to fuck wouldn’t keep track of sexual frequency because the dread of missing out on a sexual opportunity with a desirable Alpha is usually enough to ensure frequency. Alpha Men wouldn’t complain about sexual frequency, they simply move on to a new woman. Beta’s complain about sexual frequency because they are expected to know and accept (now via open hypergamy) that they will never get the type of sex their women had with the Alphas before them, but are led to believe they would get (and better) if they commit to a woman’s provisioning.

Nobody marries their ‘best sex ever’:

According to a recent study by iVillage, less than half of wedded women married the person who was the best sex of their lives (52 percent say that was an ex.) In fact, 66 percent would rather read a book, watch a movie or take a nap than sleep with a spouse.

Amanda Chatel, a 33-year-old writer from the East Village, says, “With the men I’ve loved, the sex has been good, sometimes great, but never ‘best.’ It’s resulted in many orgasms and was fun but, comparatively speaking, it didn’t have that intensity that comes with the ‘best’ sex.

“I knew [my best sex partner] was temporary, and so the great sex was the best because the sex was the relationship,” she adds. “We didn’t have to invest in anything else.”

As you can see here, the incremental problem that advocates of the ‘Man Up and accept your duty to open hypergamy’ meme will find is that reconciling the old-order social contract they need to balance hypergamy will become increasingly more difficult as example after example like this become more evident and more commonplace.

These ‘Dating Coaches’ are hocking advice from the perspective of an old-order social contract for men, in order to reconcile the well earned, well deserved consequences women are now suffering as a result of a new-order, feminine-primary social contract that has embraced unrestrained hypergamy.

Getting the Best of Her

Another link had been making the rounds in the manosphere a few weeks ago, and at the risk of just adding my own voice to the chorus I thought I’d dissect it a bit. You can have a read of the original “advice column” here, but I think the quotes will pretty much tell the story. Emphasis my own:

 Dear Carolyn:

After multiple relationships not working out because both parties were dishonest in one way or another, I decided to use a new approach to my current relationship. I am 23, met my current boyfriend (also 23) online, and decided to be COMPLETELY HONEST.

This was meant to mostly cover my feelings, as I tended to hold things in unhealthily, but I let it fold over to all aspects, including the disclosure of my sexual history. I have now learned this was a mistake.

Not to make any Beta leaning guy even more depressed, but I read this and couldn’t help but see how the Sheryl Sandberg ‘open hypergamy’ model is only going to aggravate more and more unplugged / red pill aware Betas.

Think about how disenfranchised that dutiful Beta is going to be when he is flat out told to his face by a woman, he was conditioned to believe would appreciate his unique old order appeal, that he’ll never be getting the ‘sexual best’ he believed his wife would have waiting for him in marriage. It’s one thing to read article after article detailing the triumphant aspects of a new open hypergamy, and it’s one thing to see it blatantly used in commercial advertising, but it’s quite another to experience it firsthand, viscerally, in your face.

Besides the fact that she’s had multiple “relationships” at age 23, I find it interesting that she’s recognized this ‘openness’ as a mistake. Not a mistake with regards to her own choices, but rather a mistake in feeling comfortable enough to lay bear her sexual strategy for a guy who should expects should already be “accepting of who she is.”

Compare the open hypergamy model with the guy from Saving the Best:

I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

In feminine-primary society men are constantly and publicly demonized as the ‘manipulator’. The default is to assume men are the one’s to watch out for. Men are the sex with the most dishonest nature with the most to gain sexually by playing games to trick women into believing they’re something they’re not in order to fuck them and leave them.

This presumptions is really a generalized social convention that builds a foundation for more specific social conventions women need in order to exercise feminine-primary control with men and culture on whole. It’s actually a rudimentary convention that’s easy to accept for women since feminine hypergamy has evolved a subconscious ‘vetting’ mechanism into most women’s psyches.

While it’s giggly and entertaining for women to categorize men into Cads and Dads, the irony of their doing so is that this only highlights women’s life-long patterns of deception and the manipulation efforts necessary to effecting their own dualistic sexual strategy.

That sexual selection ‘firmware’, the one which predisposes women on a limbic level to evaluating mating options of short term breeding opportunities (Alpha Fucks) with parental investment opportunities (Beta Bucks), is the same mechanism that made women the more deceptive sex when it comes to sexual strategies. The problem now is that this hypergamous deceptiveness is being replaced with ‘complete honesty’ from a macro-societal level down to an interpersonal one.

And ironically, it will be the most stubborn of blue pill Beta men, advocating for a return to an old-order social contract destroyed by the very women they hope will respond to it, who will be the last to finally accept and respond to the new-order of open hypergamy.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

434 comments on “Open Hypergamy

  1. When the first mate gave me crap during our dating period I didn’t fight her impulses. I told her, “If you can find a better guy go for it. With my blessing.” She got it out of her system because it didn’t move me.

    Rollo, there is no point in crying over what is lost. You just adapt to what the current game (M/F) is.

    BTW I was playing in the “new” system 50 years ago. I’m sorry for those who didn’t see it. Because Shakespeare wrote about it 400 years ago in “Shrew”. But back then only the upper classes had choices. Now nearly all Western women do.

  2. The first daughter has recently expressed an interest in finding a “nice” rich guy for an equal partnership. Not one of those arseholes that I think would make her happy. She refuses to face her nature. She carries the feminist illusion. At least she is not (yet) on the carousel. I don’t think it will end well. BTW she is a 9.5 and 23 so the world is open for her. For now.

  3. And another thing. I insisted on total honesty with her and as far as I can tell she has reciprocated. Her biggest fear is that I will find someone else. I told her that I couldn’t promise monogamy but that she would at least know about it and would have a chance to rise to the occasion – if she wanted to. What I asked from her in return was that she not get pregnant by anyone else. As far as I can tell we have both kept our sides of the bargain. And in fact once children entered the picture so did monogamy. Funny how that worked out without any promises.

    Has the bond been solid. Hell no. But it has been good enough to keep us together for 40+ years. And considering today’s environment I consider that an accomplishment.

  4. Watch the Feminine Imperative in action:

    I follow this university’s confessions page that works like postsecret. Student posts their confessions and the admin posts them on the wall for others to like/comment. I saw one yesterday and I immediately knew this guy reads the manosphere just by his comment (the one in maroon). The colors show each gender (pink if for girls, blue is for boys). There were more girl comments giving the maroon guy shit but i didn’t feel like posting them all. Nevertheless, it’s interesting to note how women act in the face of an uncomfortable truth. They lash out like children and call men names. They truly have no honor about anything and are completely feral when an opportunity arises to be so.

  5. @DeclineWatcher

    That’s a great page capture. But it doesn’t surprise me at all. Red-pill logic anywhere than these manosphere fora brings out everyone’s hamster.

  6. Open cuckolding, really. I suppose the rise of the popularity of pornography that has this topic is also a reflection of the abject acceptance of at least some segment of men of the rather open AF/BB strategy, even with their own wives (real or imagined).

    Disgusting stuff, really.

  7. I have experienced the gut wrenching feeling after a girl described spur of the moment sex she had with a guy outside in a courtyard. Now I know better than to expect a woman to give her best in a committed relationship. It is still difficult to accept that they can do whatever they want and suffer no consequences.

  8. Here’s my take on Open Hypergamy:

    I would attribute this to the fact that ecological selection pressures (in prosperous, developed world populations) are now so relaxed, that there is a far greater emphasis on sexual selection as a result (ie. sexual selection pressures have filled the void left by diminishing ecological selection pressures). Third world countries, because they are less prosperous, are (by necessity) less tolerant of selfish free-riders (mating distributions can be seen as a free-rider problem for evolutionary stability), which are the vector of selfish expectations.

    And this is what we are really observing – a population where there is too much free floating (ie. systemic) prosperity is rife for the indulgence of selfish/biological concerns. Where, in less prosperous systems, increased personal liability *compels* individuals to temper their selfish concerns with rational foresight (ie. no promiscuous single mothers, emboldened by an enabling welfare state). This level of critical apprehension is absent in a sufficiently prosperous population. Ultimately, this is an evolutionary problem of systemic prosperity.

    I meant that in evolutionary game theoretic terms, where the evolutionary stability of a population can be perturbed from status quo, and observed in the behavioral trends of a population. In such a case, the selfish interests of individuals could be expected to come into conflict with conditions for the evolutionary stability of a population. An agreement of data and theory suggests that these western trends are speaking to a dynamic which is increasingly, and disproportionately, enabling selfish choices.

    To make a final clarification, I would like to add that since males and females tend have conflicting reproductive interests(despite that margin where they find necessary agreement [ie. looks] ), we can assume that male-female interactions are co-evolutionary, with inescapable consequences for reproductive fitness. Thus, when these interactions are stable (minimally changing over time), we can assume an equilibrium of sorts (both males and females are contributing *something* of reciprocal evolutionary value to preserve status quo). But, when these interactions are perturbed from stability (they are in an acute state of flux), this instability implies that selection is operating on evolutionary change. If these ‘changes’ correspond with a decline in fitness, then we can assume that some contributing factor of change is frustrating the reproductive interests of one or both sexes.

    If we make some critical observations of western society, we will see both acute flux in male-female interactions (over a relatively brief interval of time), as well as trends towards sub-replacement fertility (the demographic economic paradox). From this we can infer that a measurable increase in female sexual / reproductive autonomy is hindering the reproductive interests of a disproportionate number of males (given that the female role as the rate-limiting morph naturally conflicts with the high-rate fitness optima of males) – suggesting that the ‘x-factor’ in precipitating instability, is an acute, systemic empowerment of female sexual / reproductive choice.

  9. All I got to say is thank god (not really I’m an atheist) for Rollo, Heartiste and my Christian brother Dalrock. Without them I would have truly gone insane from being around all the blue pill white knight cuck loving pathetic hypergamy cheerleading men that I’m forced to work with on a daily basis. I’m just astounded at the arrogance displayed by women and dudes just sit there confused when I ask when are men going to call them on this shit! Another masterpiece from RT.

  10. re: “hypergamous deceptiveness”
    Almost the only thing keeping me on the reservation is the hope that I can plausibly bell myself that women also delude their own selves.

  11. I’d like to share an email from a back and forth discussion I had with a women coworker regarding women’s hypergamy. This took place last year. In her previous email she said that she loves a bad boy drinker like Charlie Sheen but only “to play with” and she would “take a nice guy over the bad boy any day of the week”. I also referenced the Friends episode from long ago where Rachel was banging the hairy Italian guy and didn’t understand why Ross was upset when she said it was only a animal sex with him but it’s so much better with you. Here is her email back to me:

    The irony of it all is that I (can’t speak for most women) actually should have been born way back when, in my parents day.

    I would love to have a big strapping man as a provider.  Someone to handle the bills, take out the garbage, clean put the gutters,

    fix the water heater, and so on… while I take care of the home and clean, shop, cook and mother.


    But, that totally aint cool these days.  I wish it was possible to have it all. 


    And, yes, I stand by my quote!  I don’t know what it is about a piggy man that is so wonderful.

    But, there is just something about it & that’ll never change.


    Yup, of course I remember that Friends Episode.  He was the hairy Italian guy, Paulo, right?!


    Women get it – they just want it all – to have their cake and eat it too.


    Ps. you are sounding a little bit male chauvinistic w/ the women have been told they can have it all comment…no?


    Don’t most men want someone to take care of them (in every way), cook, clean and make a decent pay check? Men want it all as well. 


    Ha!  J J


  12. @Siirtyrion re: “Where, in less prosperous systems, increased personal liability *compels* individuals to temper their selfish concerns with rational foresight (ie. no promiscuous single mothers,”

    The U.S. birthrate is at an all time low. The birthrate of countries is completely negatively correlated with all prosperity indices bar none.


  13. Tinder/online dating sites = Open Hypergamy….just a thought.

    Like you said in another post Rollo “Hypergamy doesn’t care about your moral imperatives – it exists with equal efficiency both within and without a moral context”

    I think Men have always been the butt of the feminines Hygergamous joke.

  14. re: “acute, systemic empowerment of female sexual / reproductive [non]choice.”

    That the idiocracy sinkhole is an attractor is empirical proof that the species’ reproductive fitness depends upon disempowering female choice.

  15. I would also add that the 52% of women who stated an ex was the best lover is actually conservative. This is because many of the 48% (who said their current was the best) are hiding behind their egos, plausible deniability and fear of settling confession.

    I’ve stated on my blog in the past that only a tiny percentage of women end up with the man who viscerally turns her on the most. Men are not dissimilar, as most of them will also have experienced better lovers, but the difference here is that the women who did optimize his sexual endeavours departed from the relationship. With women, a decent amount of them could be with a man (even for the long term) who they are aroused by more than the man they opt for, but egoism, trust, confidence and hypergamy motivations lead them to another path.

    If the man she “settled ” for became challenging, less passive and more care-free, the sex would actually be better for her. As although women are naturally also aroused more by male good looks and raw power than a nerd or overweight kind of guy, the mental connection that shows he isn’t easy to capture or please gives off greater arousal still. But men, clueless to all this, continue on their merry way in trying to hard to please.

  16. Bango Tango
    August 8th, 2014 at 12:46 am

    Just spent some “time” with the first mate. And I asked her “Am I the absolute man of your dreams in every possible way? Have you found anyone better in any way?” “Yes.” “No.” It isn’t difficult. You just be the best you possibly can be. I also asked. “Are you in any way interested in other men?” “No.”

    Do I always have to be “on”. Of course.

    But it isn’t that hard. I’ve been red pill for 50 years. You get used to it. It starts to come natural.

    All my close friends and even the first mate think I’m arrogant. I am. But that kind of self confidence is what makes a man deliriously attractive to women. If you can maintain that attractiveness they will stick with you. Because they do not want to lose it.

    And for those of you who are unaware – I’m 69.

    I was having a discussion with a MGTOW guy. He said that the kind of effort you have to put out to keep a woman wasn’t for him. I kinda felt sorry for him. Why wouldn’t anyone want to do their very best in every realm? Including with women?

    IMO the trouble with women has as much to do with the wimpy attitude of men as it has to do with the nature of women.

    My best friend and I were discussing all that earlier today. It may just be fossil talk. But neither of us was much impressed with kids today. It is not just women who are changed by ease and spoiled by it. So are men.

  17. jf12
    August 8th, 2014 at 1:27 am

    It will all sort itself out. Only women who want to reproduce – very badly – will. It will affect the make up of the children.

  18. @Rollo Thanks for linking to the post about EVAN MARC KATZ. He’s successful, and I learned of him through a few close friends that have paid him thousands of dollars each for his services as a dating coach.

    One of our mutual friends, that’s a VERY successful male celebrity, paid EMK a substantial fee for his dating coaching advice. This led him to spending a lot of money on being a ‘better beta’ …

    I helped him past that advice, and I didn’t charge him anything.

    That male celebrity is quite happy now, and he’s an avid reader @rationalmale. He doesn’t comment here, but he appreciates the FREE advice given here.

  19. I read around and see the different “rules” presented on how to treat a woman. How much experience she should have. etc.

    Funny enough I think I have violated ALL the rules except one:


    If you can do that continuously you will do well with women. The troubles I had with the first mate were times where I slacked off. Not quit – just slacked. If you want to keep a LTR going well you shouldn’t ever slack.

    So why am I reading here? Well I figured out from reading here that even slacking can be dangerous. And of course then you have to over correct to reestablish yourself. I have done that numerous times. Since I started reading I have improved my Game. Thank you Rollo. And BTW the first mate is happier than ever.

  20. I’ve been on a recent winning streak banging hot chicks by weeding out time-wasters and putting forward a sexual vibe immediately and early.

    I have been told I’ve been the “best sex” for a girl and then been dropped–often for some average shlub. Should I now take this as a compliment?

    It’s only been within the last year or so that these relationships are now about ME…not US or HER….

    That seems to work for a while then the girl starts to see her friends being waited on hand and foot by some beta dickless eunech and I get shit-tested and need to dump them or I get dumped.

    The solution now for me is to spin plates…to be very up front about my sexual appetites and not invest too much too early.

  21. This is an embarrassing and extremely humiliating confession to make, but I’m going to do it anyway because I think it’s an important insight:

    A few years ago, at the depths of my beta-ness, I came across an article about the increasingly popular male fantasy of cuckolding. The humiliating part… It turned me on. I’d never even given it any thought until that time, but from a strictly fantasy standpoint it really hit me. It was super disturbing to me, and I was appalled by the fact that this had an appeal — strictly as “fantasy”, it’s not something I ever would have actually considered in real life. But what I really struggled with was why in the hell would something so depraved turn me on? And how did these extremely troubling thoughts sneak into my psyche in the first place?

    Around this time my girlfriend and I had a brief friendship with a couple whom I found out actually were in to cuckolding and participated in it. This was the wake up call… It scared the living shit out of me and I demanded that we drop the friendship immediately. We haven’t talked to them since.

    My concern over these super-depraved thoughts led me (indirectly) here, and more broadly to a much better red pill understanding, something that I’m now instituting in all areas of my life. The upshot: I no longer find cuckolding appealing at all. In fact, it really disgusts me at a visceral level and the fantasy no longer resides in my consciousness in any way whatsoever. In fact, what appeals to me now and really gets my engine revved up is fully embracing my masculine sexuality in an entirely red pill way.

    The point is… Don’t underestimate for a minute how social conditioning can seriously impact you psychologically and how it can change your behaviors in really fucked up and negative ways. In fact, I’m willing to wager that the increasing popularity of cuckolding (as fantasy and in real life) is a direct consequence of the societally conditioned “open hypergamy” Rollo discusses above. I thank my lucky stars that I arrested a truly toxic downward spiral by becoming red pill aware. At the same time, I believe that society is seriously underestimating the depths of depravity that “open hypergamy” will ultimately lead us to.

    We are in much, much more dire straits than most of us realize.

  22. Great Post, Rollo.

    People try to distill Red Pill down to the most basic, simple tenets, and it is difficult because it is a large subject, but I think I have one, riffing off of one of your posts; Saving The Best.

    If women seek to Save the Best, then the essence of Red Pill is Demanding the Best.

    As a man, you deserve the best your woman has to offer. If she cannot offer that, then you have the right to look elsewhere. Period.

    It’s simple, logical, damn fair, and I think if followed, would be effective as a core principle. Problem is, as Rollo points out, we are conditioned to NOT do so. We are pressured to accept less and less as “the way it is”.

    Spreadsheet guy, whether you agree with his methodology or not, was putting his foot down and declaring that “the way it is” is unacceptable. That is far better than simply putting up with it.

    Of course, the better course is to stop providing for her in the ways she expects, needs, demands, and look to satisfy himself as he needs until she comes around.


    I wonder if the main allure of cuckcolding is that a man gets to see the woman he is involved with, maybe even loves, be wildly passionate, even if it is with someone else. He normally does not get that, even though it would be wildly exciting if he did elicit that reaction.

    So, similar to porn being a simulated substitute for sex in general, cuck-colding supplies at least the simulation of eliciting that kind of reaction.

  23. @Magent

    That’s part of it perhaps. Part of it is also the competition anxiety I suspect. Have read elsewhere, maybe even here, that some men get extremely aroused if they suspect their women have been with another man and fuck them silly in an attempt to displace the other man’s sperm. From an evo-psych standpoint that makes sense.

    But there’s a humiliation aspect to it as well. Watch the vids above and the humiliation of the beta bux men is there for all to see. That’s the social conditioning that is becoming increasingly “sexualized” I fear and it’s going to have drastic consequences.

  24. “…there is no point in crying over what is lost. You just adapt to what the current game (M/F) is.”

    Indeed! Best comment out of the 20-something posted so far.

    Men need to learn the lesson women know from Lysistrada: cut off the sex and you will get what you are after.

    Ever think what would happen to hypergamy if men refused to play? Women would have two basic choices: turn to each other for sex and companionship, or resort to B.O.B. for love and affection. If enough men followed the strategy long enough, women would begin to get the message and some would make changes.

    Men have everything to lose and little to gain from traditional marriage, especially not sex. We need to stop fooling ourselves that we can influence female behavior, unless we resort to extreme measures which can’t get us dragged into court. Imagine the circus erupting should a woman sue because a man won’t sex her!

    Over at Return of Kings, there is an article discussing Cost-per-Orgasm. The sample numbers offered are daunting, and no date resulting in sex ever cost nearly that much for most of us. Why should it be so if one is married?

    So get a clue, guys. Women declared this war, and the only way for us men to win it is to not fight on a feminine-chosen battleground and using feminine-chosen tactics and strategies.

  25. M Simon- “Why wouldn’t anyone want to do their very best in every realm?”

    Because of laziness and lack of interest.

    I struggle with this question. Why do I want to be perfect for the imperfect. I am not going to lock down an LTR with a 10 so why would put that sort of effort into a 6?

    Never having experienced the so called rewards of winning this particular game I have to wonder if they are worth it. I know how much effort is involved. I know I enjoy no part of the process. What am I worried about being the best for? What’s in it for me?

    I am not my best at anything 24 hrs a day. That takes more energy and focus than I have. If my usual reliable 80% isn’t good enough SFW? Given what the Redpill says about the nature of women I’m not going to get the best of them either not can I count on durable relationships. Or I have to be superman…for less than a 10.

    Fuck that.

  26. @M Simon it was in the paragraph Rollo has written above

    Under the dubious pretense of concern for the general lack of gallant, chivalry and Beta Bucks-side provisioning women are entitled to – in spite of women’s embrace of open hypergamy – these watered down ‘purple pill’ “Dating Coaches” suffer from the same shock and indignation that a woman, somewhere, might not be given her life’s due of having a dutiful Beta awaiting to fulfill the provisioning side of her sexual strategy when her SMV begins to decay in earnest.

    In the post, click “Datin Coaches” …Rollo links to JFGs response to EMKs emotional response to his communications with him.

    EMK is a nice guy, and it was surprising to see him respond that way.

  27. From my perspective red pill knowledge is 90% of the battle in managing hypergamy in any kind of LTR in my own experience. Once you know what you are dealing with and why she acts the way she does, why they ALL act “that way” in a variety of situations its a much easier to manage. Most blue pill men are caught flat footed in the face of subtle or unvarnished hypergamy and end up in a less than happy outcome.

    To Rollo’s point, now it’s just out in the open and they are running like packs of dogs in the lawless streets from that commercial to TINDR, it’s rampant. Yes it is increasingly propagating through pop-culture by the FI and no doubt an increasing number of blue pill men are going to end up going psycho when they step fully into the light and realize what a raw deal they are getting from women these days.

    Chances are SHE doesn’t understand what she is doing or why and of course she only really listens to what her hamster tells her anyhow. This is the beauty of the red pill, it is the manual for the source code and allows you to stand back and see it and be proactive about not getting the short end of the stick.

    @Siirtyrion, thanks for actually writing a different kind of post, one that is both more accessible and perhaps exhibits some appreciation of the practical aspects of the “red pill approach”. I won’t call it a theory etc because I don’t care to get dragged into an argument about semantics. That you can perceive it is, for many men, simply a broad approach to understanding people and a set of practical approaches to a variety of situations that yields a moderately predictable set of outcomes, indicates to me that perhaps you have either evolved or devolved from the last prolonged debate. Then again maybe not.

  28. I’m sorry for those who didn’t see it. Because Shakespeare wrote about it 400 years ago in “Shrew”.

    Not for nothing, but keep in mind ‘Kate’ was a fictional female character imagined by arguably the greatest romantic male writer in history.

    Men are the romantics, women are the pragmatists, and nothing reflects this fact better than the way men and women imagine the opposite sex when they create characters for their stories.

    The Medium is the Message – believe what women do, not what they say.

  29. Question: is increasingly brazen hypergamy *mostly* due to female escalation in reaction to male red pill awareness? I’m all of a sudden seeing it too, but I don’t think it’s just my perceptions changing.

    If there is any pattern of escalation, always the only winning strategy is to be the firstest with the mostest. Grab the biggest hammer in the arsenal, fire the first strike nukes, sooner rather than later. Stomp it out. Kill it before it draws another breath; don’t wait for it to try to reproduce.

  30. “As a man, you deserve the best your woman has to offer. If she cannot offer that, then you have the right to look elsewhere. Period.”

    I’ll take that further: if the best she has to offer isn’t good enough, then you have the right to look elsewhere. Period.

    Putting up with the best of a low quality woman?

    Fuck that.

    And I’m not talking about her appearance.

  31. Open cuckolding, really. I suppose the rise of the popularity of pornography that has this topic is also a reflection of the abject acceptance of at least some segment of men of the rather open AF/BB strategy, even with their own wives (real or imagined).
    Disgusting stuff, really.


    I believe there are some complex psychological forces that come into play. I know Rollo has the background, so I hope he’ll chime in and correct me or expand.

    I mentioned previously in a comment that I thought the condition and attitude of some husbands in miserable, sex-deprived marriages resembles a sort of Stockholm Syndrome effect.

    AF-BB is intrinsically a sort of “offensive” strategy if you approach it from a perspective of fairness, reciprocity, relational investment equity.

    Now historically, AF-BB either was suppressed through patriarchal control, or once female sexuality was unchained it operated in sort of a “secret world” that most men…basically all the BBs were blissfully unaware of. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss.

    Now the more open and transparent it becomes because of women like Sandberg openly espousing it, or like in the example in the post women making the “mistake” of disclosing their history, it is no longer possible to remain blissfully ignorant.

    So now what? Men are going to have a cognitive dissonance they must resolve. In my mind there are only 2 choices. Either you “Alpha Up” and remake yourself in the paradigm of AF while retaining whatever other characteristics you believe in, or you fully embrace the BB role and make a virtue out of your place “in the system” as a BB.

    I’m going to reference Nietzche’s “will to power” concept. I believe this is weak in most men, so for most men trying to alpha up is either too hard, too much work, or just not worth it. Most will fully embrace their role as BB. Once they’ve done that, to stay mentally consistent, it becomes necessary to demonize and attack the men who choose to try an AF. These are the manboobz, Futrelle, Scalzi types who make it a virtue that their daughters can outlift them in the gym. Their VIRTUE and PRIDE comes not from ACHIEVEMENT but from how they can better shine on a spotlight on their service to women and the female imperative.

    I really believe there are complex psychological self-defense mechanisms at work so that a man who actively chooses BB can take pride in his role rather than feel like a Tool.

    Recently, the Time Machine movie was on, and there is the scene with the Morlocks hunting the Eloi, and the Time Traveler is horrified at what is taking place, and asks why they do not fight back. One of the Eloi says something to the effect it is the way of this world. They had totally resigned themselves that their role was as a food source for the Morlocks.

  32. I’ll need to research it again, but there’s an interesting psychological dynamic I learned about called something like ‘revulsion reversal’.

    Basically the idea is that once a person is exposed often enough to what his natural instincts react to with revulsion (the smell of feces or a dead body for instance), they can learn to associate it with sexual arousal.

    Thus you get bestiality, pedos, scat lovers, extreme BDSM and of course cuckolding fetishes.

    The operative here though is the ‘getting past’ the evolved instinctual revulsion part that’s being facilitated by open hypergamy.

    I’ll do a little homework.

  33. Join the NecroPyroBeastophilia club.

    “We fuck dead animals on fire!”

    In the ass, of course.

  34. “Alpha Men wouldn’t complain about sexual frequency, they simply move on to a new woman.”

    This is much more difficult in a marriage and, I think, unfairly paints all married men as Betas.

    We can easily flip the script on our wives. If you were not HER best and if you have much experience, then I betcha she is not YOUR best either. I made sure mine knew iit and sometimes I think that is why she didn’t leave during the dark times.

  35. @Morpheus, re: embracing your role.

    “Or else we’ll make you embrace your role” seems to be the underlying concept, though.

    Surrender at the point of a gun makes some sense, whereas pre-surrender is pathological.

  36. “Alpha Men wouldn’t complain about sexual frequency, they simply move on to a new woman.”

    By definition, an alpha is one who the women want to fuck. So an alpha doesn’t complain about sexual frequency.

  37. Great piece Rollo – I think more or less the same way that you do about this topic (and I suspect many guys do) but the way you articulate it is extraordinary.

    I’ll wait patiently for your piece on revulsion reversal. Sounds it will be an interesting, if dark, look into the human mind.

  38. Badpainter
    August 8th, 2014 at 11:44 am

    I’m in a LTR (40+ years) by choice. We have children (my choice). If I want to keep it going (I do) I have to put in the effort. My Dad was a Red Pill guy (I didn’t know it until recently) and he kept it going until he died.

    It seems that maximum effort is a family trait. I was at a very large family gathering in 2009. Something like 200 or 300 people. And every one was showing off the results of their maximum effort. The 5% who weren’t like that were pitied. Kindly. But it was in the air.

    Given how the culture is evolving the sub-maximums are going to be replaced if we don’t find ourselves enslaved first.

    You can see that in the Middle East. There is a group (you know who) putting in maximum effort all the time because their survival is at stake. And it shows. The women are beautiful and the men are strong and smart. Their enemies? Look at them.

    I have seen complaints around here that the good looking women are not even on the scene let alone available. We are letting ourselves die. Sad.

    Now you say the best you can do is a 6. Are you a 4 or a 3.5? Because in my estimation Game adds 2 to 2.5 points to your value. When I was spinning plates I was (mostly) doing 8s 9s and the very occasional 10 . I married (my choice) an 8 or 9 (depending on how you count). And I’m no better than a 7 in the looks dept (my estimation). Before I got game (at 18 yo) I felt like a 1 or 2.

  39. Rollo, it all boils down to (trying to) make society more depraved through social conditioning, slowly but surely, systematically until we have all forfeited our civility and humanity and are nothing but the base level primitivism we are capable of being (whether men or women), but would not be(come) without all these outside influences telling what (is) the (new) normal or what “progressive” is or what is trending. It’s a matter of society devolving from being evolved..

    Regression as opposed to progression. This is the new artificial normal, the new natural normal. The authentic natural normal is that Beta’s have all along been the (real) alphas… (!) and the alphas have all along been the (real) betas… It is only a matter of time before this real reality will sink in… It’s just a little bit early for y’all to see it.

  40. J-J
    August 8th, 2014 at 3:19 pm

    Interesting that we both see the same thing. But we will not just regress. We will be enslaved.

    I’m not much of a Bible guy. But you can see it in the stories. Things go well. The people slack. And slavery is the result. Over and over.

    Only fat (in the sense of wealthy) people can afford depravity. And it can not last long. Some will come along who want your lunch more than you do.

    And unlike the Bible people I do not think it is a matter of keeping a certain set of rules. It is more a matter of the willingness to put in effort. All else follows. And that is why I have no respect for MGTOW. And it is a failing of the manosphere that those boys get any respect at all.

    Well, I don’t respect them.

  41. Rollo Tomassi
    August 8th, 2014 at 12:13 pm

    Yes the Kate was fictional. But look at the other women with their Betas. They were definitely not fictional. My guess is that Willy had Game. At least some of the time. Because he shows little respect for the Betas

  42. jf12
    August 8th, 2014 at 2:42 pm

    Surrender at the point of a gun makes some sense, whereas pre-surrender is pathological.


    Sadly what we are seeing is a pre-surrender of a whole society. It will not end well. We need to regain the killer instinct on all levels.

    When I was growing up cowboys were the role model. What do we have now? Seinfeld.

  43. M. Simon
    August 8th, 2014 at 3:37 pm

    At the end of the day, when times are tough, it is the men who are able to build and function within communities who are and who will be the leaders. When community spirit disappears, (the current type of) alpha’s take the lead and are highly sought after while beta’s (the original alphas) become redundant – until we return to the need for community again. This need for community (again) could very easily happen very soon when there is a major economic collapse or a major economic depression…

    It is an interesting point you make about rules, because if we are not ready for a situation where we need to revert to community rules (i.e. values) again “we” (most people) will simply revert to animalism as in looting, fighting and killing each other over resources. Whereas if we retain a certain level of civility, and understanding of responsibility (very “un-Alpha” at the moment), we may just be able to deal with a transition back to what natural societies are all about.

  44. @M Simon

    Considering that most people are dogfuckers (motivationally challenged), is it better for the betas to go MGTOW, or to feed the now dysfunctional FI?

    Although dogfucker is a dysphemism for minimal effort, does anyone want to take on the fact the hypergamous gal in the Red (Th)Robin’ commercial was far from an HB?

  45. @jacklabear
    I put dead animals to the fire almost every weekend, and often invite some neighbors or folks from the church to indulge with us. We *eat* them, and laugh while we’re doing it …

    Doing my part to incite the vegans among us.

  46. Men will ‘provision’ women in exchange for ‘reproductive privileges’.

    The vegans offer them cucumbers instead.

  47. J-J
    August 8th, 2014 at 4:00 pm

    Where I differ is that I’m of the opinion that the rules evolve naturally when everyone is doing their best.

    “The society which scorns excellence in plumbing because plumbing is a humble activity, and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because philosophy is an exalted activity, will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy. Neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water.” — John W. Gardner, Saturday Evening Post, December 1, 1962

    It saddens and disgusts me to see a whole segment of society giving up. I have one of those living in my basement. Very bright boy. Outstanding good looks. Why isn’t he chasing all the poon he can get? Because the odds are stacked against him? Never tell me the odds.

    But as I said up thread. I’m a member of a totally different and now reviled culture.

    There are not going to be many Yogis in England, because there will not be more than a very few indeed who will have the courage to tackle even this first of the eight limbs of Yoga: Yama.

    I do not think that anything will save the country: unless through war and revolution, when those who wish to survive will have to think and act for themselves according to their desperate needs, and not by some rotten yard-stick of convention.

  48. M Simon
    August 8th, 2014 at 5:30 pm

    You said: “Very bright boy. Outstanding good looks. Why isn’t he chasing all the poon he can get? Because the odds are stacked against him? Never tell me the odds.”

    – This boy living in your basement obviously has better things to do than chase poon… and that is his free choice. The fact is that there IS more to life than just chasing poon – all good things in good time.
    A man does not have to prove himself all the time by chasing poon… real men that is.

    The fact that you consider this as “giving up” is irrelevant to his goals and ambitions in life. By insisting that all men, especially the so-called “beta’s” should constantly chase skirts to prove themselves plays directly into the hands of the alpha player females – and let’s face it – they’re all alpha nowadays.

  49. ” – and let’s face it – they’re all alpha nowadays”

    So that’s why the Red Robin girl doesn’t need looks, eh?

  50. Yes, even the 2’s and 3’s egos have been infinitely boosted by (female) game and (beta’s chasing after them and) that’s why even they have the arrogance do treat any man like a 1 from a hypergamy point of view.

  51. M. Simon said the following before about someone he had spoken to: “I was having a discussion with a MGTOW guy. He said that the kind of effort you have to put out to keep a woman wasn’t for him.”

    I agree and would add – that kind of effort USED TO BE worth it – times have changed. Rather save your energy for the ones that come along who are obviously interested. The rest of your time you may as well focus on your personal interests and hobbies. There are always the option of a good hooker during dry seasons.

  52. @ M. Simon:

    We will not be enslaved if we are strong enough to play the supply and demand game better than women, unfortunately the alpha’s are providing too much supply… (and motivating all betas to do the same, which completely floods the market) and this empowers women WAY beyond their worth.

    The results are obvious.

  53. @agent p
    “…exhibits some appreciation of the practical aspects of the “red pill approach”.

    I have always appreciated the “red pill approach” but it’s the PUA game con that I abhor.


    While it’s obvious from a AF – BB standpoint, it could be broken down further by reviewing a few studies. I welcome any critique or discussion here on the following:

    The preference for self-similar faces pertains largely or exclusively to own-sex rather than opposite-sex faces [DeBruine et al. 2008, Watkins et al. 2011, but see Fraley & Marks 2010]. Furthermore, facial attractiveness is non-monotonically associated with many traits, and peaks at their medium, not extreme, values. For example, facial attractiveness increases with the “averageness” or “prototypicality” of facial proportions [Rhodes 2006, Kościński 2007, etc..], and women prefer men with moderately masculine faces [Kościński 2007, Scott & Penton- Voak 2011]. So this weakens the influence of a possible preference for self-similar partners for within-pair matching on attractiveness (on the ‘self seeking-like hypothesis’).

    Several studies prove that manipulated images of other-sex faces are judged as more trustworthy by the participants they were made to resemble than by control participants. In contrast, the effects of resemblance on attractiveness are significantly lower. In the context of a long-term relationship, where both pro-social regard and sexual appeal are important criteria, facial resemblance has no effect. In the context of a short-term relationship, where sexual appeal is the dominant criterion, facial resemblance decrease attractiveness (note that inbreeding avoidance mechanisms should exist in all species–including humans).

    Humans are sensitive to the costs and benefits of favoring kin in different circumstances, therefore cues of relatedness have a positive effect on pro-social feelings, but a negative effect on sexual attraction. Facial male self-resemblance serves as a kinship cue that facilitates cooperation between kin.

    I could have just said, “familiarity breeds contempt” but this is much more thought provoking.

  54. I would like to see historical average N counts, but I didn’t find any.

    Despite the pessimism around here, I suspect that even betas are getting laid more than ever.

    Those establishment rejecting long haired hippie guys were getting ‘free love’ pretty good. That was just the beginning of the sexual revolution.

  55. Males raised with unrelated females are subject to the same incest-avoidance behavoir from the females as males who are related.

  56. J.J.
    August 8th, 2014 at 5:49 pm

    Ah. Yes. He has better things to do. As in doing nothing. Well he is probably pretty good at video games. Quite a life skill that.

  57. ” – and let’s face it – they’re all alpha nowadays”

    So that’s why the Red Robin girl doesn’t need looks, eh?

    Doesn’t need them because of her, or doesn’t need them because of him?
    The sun is a huge monster, and the sun is a tiny star.

    The woman in the iVillage interview, I would like to know of anything she did differently with the great sex guy versus her loved ones. Was she more open about expressing what she’d be willing to do with great sex guy, or was it just great sex guy doing his thing and her discovering his thing?
    Did she play conservative with the okay loved ones as barter, making them think she wouldn’t be adventurous, thereby making the guy conservative?

  58. J.J.
    August 8th, 2014 at 6:18 pm

    Save your effort waiting “for one to come along” ? I went through quite a few of them to find some one worth the effort. If you wait for one to come along the wait may be indefinite.

    And you know, really, if you do a strict cost benefit none of them are worth it. But what price adventure?

    You are the voice of a civilization in decline. If you are young enough you will be a slave. I have the good fortune to be an old man. Death will likely claim me before I see it. But I can already smell it all around me.

  59. I really have trouble getting into the mindset of these beta guys that don’t push for kinky sex. When I analyze my pre-Game self, I was a beta-ish guy in the sense that I did get put into the LBJF zone a few times, was an orbiter once and couldn’t get more than a 7.5 (my scale). But, I always went for kinky sex. I would never settle for a relationship where I wasn’t getting EVERY kinky sexual fantasy fulfilled. I was a beta in the seduction sense, but not a beta in the sexual dominance sense. I just didn’t know what turned on women psychologically. BUT, I did know what I wanted sexually and I would never allow a relationship to continue without all my sexual needs being met.

    There is something going on with today’s betas that is beyond seduction knowledge. The best I can figure, the Left has killed self-esteem and pride with their assault on objective standards and an intrinsic human nature. By attacking masculinity, they have created an army of men who selflessly sacrifice their sexual desires for the hope of maintaining a relationship. IMO, this is a consequence of the war against pride. A man can be ignorant of seduction knowledge but he should not be a self-sacrificial wimp. That a common man can and should avoid. PUA game skill, that he needs to study and practice. But a base level of pride is something he should just develop. That so many men today don’t is where the real tragedy is.

  60. J.J.
    August 8th, 2014 at 6:45 pm

    What you fail to get is that you will be a slave. It is your lot in life. Either you will be a slave to a woman and children and control your civilization or you will be a slave to another civilization. Men are expendable. Let me repeat:

    Men are expendable

    The only question is will you rise up in order to take some control of your destiny or will you cede your destiny to another civilization.

    “I do not think that anything will save the country: unless through war and revolution, when those who wish to survive will have to think and act for themselves according to their desperate needs, and not by some rotten yard-stick of convention.” – A.C.

    Despite what you think your survival depends on women and children. The civilization that makes more children controls the future.

    So you know women. That is at best a tenth of what you need to know.

    What I’m seeing is an abandonment of the life force. A denial of God if you like. And it has nothing to do with following some ancient rule book. There are any number of books and systems that can serve as a guide. But the first requirement is a desire for life.

    “If I am not for myself who is for me? And being for my own self, what am ‘I’? And if not now, when?” – Hillel

    If you are living for yourself alone you are giving up a greater part of your manhood.

    My buddy and I had a long talk about it yesterday. We came to the conclusion that the problem today is that the youth has no spiritual connection. When I was growing up finding that connection was all the rage. The 60s you may recall or have read about.

    What is the rage today? Living in the basement.

  61. s.r.
    August 8th, 2014 at 11:18 pm

    I don’t agree with much else of what you said but on this point d’accord:

    …killed self-esteem and pride…

    …a base level of pride is something he should just develop. That so many men today don’t is where the real tragedy is.

  62. Just had a long talk with the first daughter. And the one point we saw exactly the same is that America is a civilization in decline. Her prescription was government. Mine was less government. But on the essence we were in agreement.

  63. I think this is related to open hypergamy by way of open contempt for men’s sexuality.
    Em & Lo advise boys to learn how to please their girlfriend, be happy that their girlfriend has lots of other boyfriends, be happy when she turns him down, and to do what their girlfriends say.

    Em & Lo advise girls to learn what pleases themselves instead and to ignore their boyfriend’s sexual needs, to boss their boyfriends around, to insist he please her, don’t care when she turns him down, and above all don’t do anything just because he said so.

  64. jf12
    August 8th, 2014 at 11:25 pm

    What would accountability for open hypergamy look like?

    Can there even be such a thing? You can bring it to heel. But make it accountable? It is the very essence of unaccountable self interest.

  65. jf12
    August 9th, 2014 at 12:52 am

    M Simon
    August 9th, 2014 at 12:52 am

    I see our timing is near perfect. And that we are also in near perfect agreement.

  66. Siirtyrion
    August 8th, 2014 at 8:11 pm

    You are getting better but I still had to read your comment three times to get your meaning.

  67. @M Simon

    The millenial generation you criticize is the result of all the mistakes Boomers like yourself made in the 60’s and onward.

  68. JackTheBerserker
    August 9th, 2014 at 2:50 am

    Could you be more specific? Are you thinking political? I raised my kids libertarian. Having seen the errors of socialism/government.

    If it is something else I’d like to know.

  69. M Simon
    August 8th, 2014 at 11:29 pm

    The only way to avoid slavery is to go MGTOW. (at least until you are willing or ready to be enslaved – by woman/women). In terms of life, yes you are correct – men are destined to be working for other men (mostly). It has always been this way. The only way to more or less escape that it to become an entrepreneur or run your business, but we are still enslaved by the system, financial and political, so the only way to escape that is to go live on an island or in the mountains – which is not feasible for all.

    MGTOW gives you the opportunity to live your life as freely and independently as you possibly can while now and again dipping into the pond, while playing it safe and making sure that on-one gets pregnant on you deliberately and enslaving you… The time will come one day when you are (much) older – maybe late forties or early fifties when you would like to start a family and then you won’t mind the slavery so much, because ultimately it cannot be avoided indefinitely.

    I agree with your points: “What I’m seeing is an abandonment of the life force”. “But the first requirement is a desire for life.”

    This is true in the Westernised parts of the world and in my opinion comes down to the corruption of society and of women in particular.

    You make a fair point about the young man in the basement wasting his time with video games (didn’t know that), but I would say he might be better off developing a practical skill or playing sport or participating in community projects (if they still exist around there) and or prepare himself for the job market or get a job (if doesn’t have one). Yes, certainly, chasing poon is better than sitting in the basement all day – if he can afford it it. Getting out is very important, but on the other hand dedicating all one’s time, money and effort on chasing poon and obsessing every waking minute about it is equally counter-productive and distratcs from all the (other) quality things in life – and this is the crux of the matter – there’s very little poon around any more that could be described as quality in terms of making loads of effort for it.

  70. J.J.
    August 9th, 2014 at 5:48 am

    You are not getting it. You basement boys will not avoid slavery. When the country falls you will be rounded up and sent to labor camps. If your conquerors are nice. If they are not nice they will just round you up and shoot you.

    Paranoid ravings? No. Just a reading of non-western history. Or more likely current events.

    There is a way to remain safe. Just repeat over and over the holy mantra.

    It can’t happen here.

    As to my basement boy. He has an engineering degree. He hated being a slave to the company he worked for.

    As to single minded pursuit of poon. I never did that. I studied stuff most of the time. Electronics. Geodesic geometry. Cement. Stuff like that. Still got way more than my fair share. Way more than my unfair share.


    As I said I’m glad I am old enough to likely avoid seeing the end result. Or I will be one of the first shot. I intend to see to it. Because I intend to resist.

  71. August 9th, 2014 at 12:47 am

    “Just had a long talk with the first daughter. And the one point we saw exactly the same is that America is a civilization in decline. Her prescription was government. Mine was less government. But on the essence we were in agreement.”

    I agree with both of you that Western civilisation is in major decline – see links below. BUT I’m not sure how keeping on shifting our values and norms (as men in general) to meet the latest whims of the (Westernised) and utterly corrupted and egotistical female who demands jumping through hoops for them, refuse any responsibility or accountability and using men purely as sources of entertainment and pleasure as well as a dumping ground and target of accusation for every single inadequacy they possess – which mostly comes down to refusing to grow up. Nowadays we even notice women in their 40;s and 50’s acting like children. There has been a major regression and we are seeing it in women first. M. Simon I’m sure you would agree with me on this. Solutions?

    I don’t know, but this situation is so far gone that I’ve already changed countries and will do so again and go to a place where women and gender roles are still quite traditional and where they don’t yet have any gender studies at universities and where feminism hasn’t taken a very strong foothold yet. Because to try and roll this whole thing back (in the West) will take decades, EXCEPT if there is a major financial crisis, forcing women to be more reliant on men again, giving them fewer options, forcing them to have respect for men, etc.

    Every man must make his own choices (“Go His Own Way”). In short I recommend: Determine you own personal values and live by them and make the best of life by seeking out the quality things in life. Don’t compromise even if you have to go without sometimes. Change your environment or location if you have to. If you feel you need to “fight” then FIGHT for a return to values, norms, morals and civility, because at the end of the day this is what this is about. Do no participate in the collapse of society by forfeiting everything that makes you human and a conscious (with conscience) human being. Develop your inner core – and therefore a rudder to steer your ship.

  72. And J.J. do you know why there is no quality poon? Because there are no quality men.

    Remember that ME country I mentioned? Look at the men. Look at the women. They match.

    And further. When I look around my small midwest town there are plenty of 7s 8s 9s and the occasional near 10. Why? Because people around here still have to struggle. Life is hard and the people are beautiful.

    Catching on yet?

    And what you suggest is further weakness. Which means that things and people will just get uglier. You have chosen suicide. Just not directly. What woman is going to be interested in that?

    You know how bad it is? I have the occasional 20 something hitting on me when I’m out with the first mate. And I’m 69.

  73. J.J.
    August 9th, 2014 at 6:31 am

    You can’t figure out how to fix the women? It is simple. It is not easy.

    You capture a suitable one and tame her. And encourage the rest of your cohort to do the same.

    But that is probably more than the basement boys can handle. And surely too much effort. Slow suicide takes much less effort.


    How to do it has been explained here and at other places ad nauseum. But you lack the essential ingredient. Courage. If I was a woman I wouldn’t want you either. I’d definitely go for some fake alpha first. Or a real one if I could find him. Because that is what women want. And if the alpha was a provider too? All the better.

  74. MGTOW = I have decided on slow suicide.

    You aren’t going to smell right if you choose that. And that is a silent signal. And women have a very enhanced sense of smell.

  75. Despite all my real and imagined faults you know what the first mate says she really likes about me? That I am her protector. And I am. Because that is what men do. I couldn’t imagine doing anything else.

    But I grew up on cowboy movies and war stories. You probably grew up on Seinfeld.

  76. @ M. Simon

    You are lucky that you have an old-school wife -so she’s still around, but she’s from a different era.

    Everyone knows that even being the Ultimate Alpha does not guarantee a woman (any woman) staying around any more. This is a fact. They will leave you on a whim – after any amount of time.

    Because of hypergamy – which is becoming increasingly open and audacious – the thinking is this: “I will change men simply because I CAN – (and it is my RIGHT) and what are you going to do about it, (SUCKER)?”

  77. And the reason why they can change men on a whim, is because men are swarming around them like flies…

    Supply and Demand.

  78. J.J.
    August 9th, 2014 at 6:58 am

    Well that is your #1 error. I don’t have an old school wife. I just worked hard to dominate her. And the more I dominate her the more attracted she is to me.

    And even if you run your own business you are a slave to your customers. You have to do everything in your power to make them happy.

    As long as you need to eat and breathe you are a slave to food and breath. How could it be otherwise? The idea that you can avoid slavery is in its essence nuts.

    The best you can do is to choose the terms of your contract.

    I chose to be a slave to my mate and the children. Best adventure I ever had. And that comes from a guy who did all kinds of adventuring including being a member of an outlaw MC gang. Being a sailor (Nuclear Qualified) in the ‘Nam War. Living on the road for a few years. And all kinds of stuff like that.

  79. J.J.
    August 9th, 2014 at 7:08 am

    OK. You don’t have what it takes to make her demand you above all others.

    I asked the first mate about that the other day. She said she wasn’t interested in anyone but me. And when we were dating I gave her plenty of opportunities to try. I wanted her to be sure.

  80. Rollo do you think there is a limit to alphas?

    If there is, doesn’t it mean that nothing changes completely?

    Redpill betas discover they are being deceived and then what? Now they know they will live a life of celibacy? They know the problem but to what extent can they do something about it? I think this is the mindset of many young men like M. Simon’s young boy in the basement.

    Or is it like Heartiste says: game won’t make a 3 bang 10’s but he will be able to bang higher than he normally has and with a greater frequency. But then ultimately that describes a system that kids growing up call “leagues”. Ex. “He/she’s out of my league”. But we also know that the feminine imperative tries to force men into leagues as well. So is game not necessarily a tool to become alpha, but to jump from the leagues imposed on men by the feminine imperative to the leagues that we can naturally achieve?

  81. John
    August 9th, 2014 at 7:18 am

    If I was to do something about female deception I’d change just one thing. The paternity laws. No man should have to raise another’s child or even stay married to a deceiver if he doesn’t want to. And I’d change the support laws that apply under those circumstances.

    What is ruining men is not women. What is ruining men is fear of women.

    The trouble is that basement boys will not band together to demand such changes. And without them change is not possible.

    Men have to grow a pair again. But that is hard work. And basement boys want it easy.

  82. J.J.
    August 9th, 2014 at 7:08 am

    It is more than supply and demand. Most men never developed the tools that make a woman want HIM. And the social situation and rules supported that lack of effort. They no longer do.

    There are is a way out of this that I think is possible without any change in the laws.. Man Up – i.e. every man an alpha. The days of keeping a woman with no effort are over. That of course was a poor deal. But at least it was a deal.

    That deal is no longer possible. So what have our men done in response? Collapsed. Given up. Taken the slow suicide route.

    What would the net result of that be if it came to pass? Game would no longer work as a way of getting more than your SMV allowed. But it would work to keep the woman that you got.

    There was only ever one way to keep her hypergamy in check. Make her want you.

  83. @M Simon, re: “Man Up – i.e. every man an alpha.”

    Yes, I think so too, and answering a different question than John asked but the right question: there is no limit to how alpha a man can be if he is courageous enough to do it.

  84. M.Simon- “And J.J. do you know why there is no quality poon? Because there are no quality men.”

    That’s right it’s all the fault of men. Older men, who raised generations X Y and millenial.

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