Appeals to Reason

thinker

“A woman in love can’t be reasonable, otherwise she wouldn’t be in love”
— Mae West

Last week The Chateau posted an article about a Beta male asking girls for reasons why they rejected him. In the typical deductive logic that most Betas are prone to use, he runs down a checklist of questions regarding what he thinks killed his chances with the girls he thought he could get with. He petitions four women with questions about themselves, which, being women, all are more than eager to answer.

Do you usually figure out if you wanna do more than make out with someone pretty instantly? Or, is it a slow burn?

Was there anything I did wrong that turned you off?

If you had advice for any guy looking to meet a girl, what would it be?

What makes someone attractive to you? Do you have any types?

Do you feel that you could never date someone shorter than you?

Am I an unattractive person to you?

These are some of the more common questions John Brown puts to the girls, and true to form the girls answer with the standard feminine boilerplate responses that absolve themselves of their part in his rejection, while trying not to hurt the feelings of a guy they knew would never see them naked. With the exception of maybe Vanessa, it’s pretty clear that John’s punching well above his blue-pill weight with these girls even though I’d only rate Victoria as the only HB8 in the bunch.

The questioning is what I’ve come to expect from most chumps mired in their blue pill bubble of applying logic to their sexlessness, but it’s not John’s overt grilling of these women that’s keeping him trapped in the Matrix – it’s his buildups and followups to those questions. John isn’t just interviewing them to ‘get to the bottom of things’ so he can solve his sex problem, he’s leading these women with ‘if then’ logic in an effort to convince them that, by their own words, they should be attracted to him.

John is make the most fundamental error every plugged in chump makes — he’s appealing to women’s reason.

Why Women Can’t ‘Just Get It

Appealing to women’s logic and relying on deductive reasoning to sort it out is the calling card of a Beta mind. There is nothing more anti-seductive for women than appealing to her reason. Arousal, attraction, sexual tension, subcommunication of desire, all happen indirectly and below the social surface for women. It’s not that women are incapable of reasoning (hypergamy is one logical bitch) or are crippled by their emotion-based hindbrains, it’s that if you’re asking her how to be more attractive you don’t Get It. It’s in the doing, not the asking.

If you read through the responses these women give John from a red pill perspective, you’ll see a pattern emerge. On an intrinsic, subliminal level,  women understand that their genuine desire, their genuine arousal and attraction, has to be an organic process. When a guy like John makes attempts to convince a woman that by her own reasoning (and led by his) she should be with him intimately, it offends and then cancels that process for her.

For women, one of the qualities of the Alpha her Hypergamy demands is a guy who Just Gets It. An Alpha would intrinsically know what women’s arousal and attraction cues are without being told and without even the inclination to ask about them. John’s issue of overtly confirming for himself ‘what women want’ is really an abdication of a Beta who doesn’t get it. And true to form, John’s, and Betas like him, next logical resort is to rationally convince a woman (preferably using her own words) to be attracted to him by attempting to re-impress her of his status.

Betas like this generally end up as the infamous emotional tampon, or the Surrogate Boyfriend to a woman who’s banging the most Alpha Man her looks can attract. However, this appeal-to-reason rationale filters into other aspects of men’s lives. The logical progression for John would be to better identify with the women (really the feminine imperative) he hopes to bang in the future – embody the feminine prerequisites, get the intimate approval. For married or monogamous men this appeal-to-reason may come as a mistaken belief that doing more chores around the house will lead to more (or any) sex for him.

The fallacy of Relational Equity is essentially founded on men’s dependency on appeals to women’s reason. Your doing homework with your children to better their lives (while very ennobling) doesn’t make your wife any hotter for you in bed, nor will it be any bargaining tool should she decide to leave you. Just as John is learning here, women don’t fall in love with who you are, they fall in love with what you are, and no appeal to their reason will convince them otherwise.

Red Pill Women

There’s a lot being made in the manosphere about the emergence of red pill or Game aware women. I’m on record for stating that every woman is a red pill woman, it’s just getting them to drop the feminine-primary, psychological pretense and cop to red pill truths that’s the trick. While I do share the generally wariness of self-identifying “Red Pill Women” and their potential for sanitizing or repurposing Game-awareness to a better feminine liking, I think most women are already aware of the truth of Game. There’s a very real danger in Men accepting “red pill women’s” conversion and acceptance of those truths for exactly the appeal-to-reason dynamic I’ve described here.

Red pill women’s acceptance of what the manosphere forces them to acknowledge about themselves is essentially a convincing appeal to their reason, and this will always make their “conversion” suspect. Regardless of their reported red pill self-awareness, red pill women still want a guy to Just Get It, their desire still can’t be negotiated, and as illogical as it may seem to a manosphere Man, hoping to appeal to the same reason that made her “red pill” still wont get you laid.

Red pill or not, women are still women, and basing any relationship you have with them on appealing to their reason, rather than solid Game awareness and truths, is building you house on a foundation of sand.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Dana
8 years ago

Can I leave a comment here or what?

Dana
8 years ago

My apologies, my original comment didn’t register right away on this post and it seemed it may have gotten erased, but it takes a few minutes
or so to register I guess.

Mr.C
Mr.C
8 years ago

To paraphrase Australian comedian Jim Jefferies…
When you are on a first date, and the bill comes, she always touches the straps of her handbag like she is going to pay, until you say, “no no I’ll pay.” That argument is over in 2 seconds. All other arguments will go on for months.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/blogs/citykat/hes-still-paying-and-women-are-paying-for-it-20130822-2sdvg.html#ixzz2d2czueHA

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[…] and female SMV in the context of hypergamy in The Curse of Potential. He also warns against making Appeals to Reason to […]

Antome
Antome
7 years ago

I’m very sorry that here this much hatred can be tasted toward entire cathegories, women accused of having it easy and not having invented anything, (false or conditionally true). It’s not just a serene discussion on how to be more sexy and charming to girls but respecting them (at least as individuals, assholes are transversal to sexes, no need to vomit such a coldness). There are people, women and men that exploit the situation, simply put, the problem is not wanting equality, but trying unhonestly to only take the good out of it and keep the old paradigm with what… Read more »

Sam Spade
7 years ago

Congratulations from a longtime reader. I knew it’d be a hit.

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[…] I’ve explained before, appeals to a woman’s reason will never bear the fruit that hopeful Beta men expect it will. Women don’t want to be told […]

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7 years ago

[…] impress me as a chump, so I believe his comment on Jezebel was really more of a symbolic appeal to feminine reason. What he illustrates here is a common misgiving most Beta blue pill men subscribe to – that they […]

Tony
Tony
7 years ago

Are you saying that women are always doing their instinctive mating ritual behaviours 24/7 365 with every single male?

This fellow was not trying to mate with these women… he was just conducting a logical information-gathering exercise.

You wrote an article explaining why logical discussion and information gathering is not a good mating ritual behaviour.

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[…] I fault him for anything it was in his appeal to Helen’s reason when he pulled the cover off of the psychological and sociological underpinnings of what Chip […]

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7 years ago

[…] in the hope of proving his worth and qualifying for her intimate acceptance is really one long Appeal to a Woman’s Reason. It’s very convenient for a woman to enjoy (and often become dependent upon) the services a […]

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7 years ago

[…] or a script to follow in order to finally get with the Girl of his Dreams®, and rationally and reasonably make her aware of how he measures up to everything on her ‘boyfriend […]

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[…] up and leave the game after failing so many times but, I continued to stick it out hoping I would appeal to her reasoning  and it lead to my downfall deeper into friend zoning myself. It wasn’t until many years […]

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[…] | Appeals to Reason | therationalmale.com […]

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7 years ago

[…] Dave makes the mistake of appealing to Robin’s reason – an obvious Beta tell. Like a properly conditioned Beta, Dave lays everything on the table in […]

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[…] one of the beliefs frequently passed around is that women are incapable of feeling love, or of exhibiting logic. The emphasis on the movement is not to create equality, but rather to return to the inequality of […]

Jafyk
Jafyk
7 years ago

@ Jen. It makes sense why the guys don’t stick around when you are in a relationship. Even if the guy wasn’t about getting into your pants or worst case scenario wanted to get into your pants while being a friend. The fact is most girls can’t be true friends with guys. Most times when the girl gets into the relationship as a guy you stop hearing from her. The next time you will hear from her is when she has man problems and needs to vent or perhaps when he’s out of town. In a very rare case I… Read more »

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[…] right? You have to give me your time and sex now right?” then you as a man will fail the test. This post from The Rational Male paints it perfectly.  If you do everything a woman wants overtly then, […]

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[…] Appeals to Reason […]

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[…] are likewise mislead by a similar influence? Are we (again) giving women too much credit for being rational independent agents under different […]

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[…] for a rational solution to this performance requirement, but as I’ve outlined in prior posts, appeals to women’s reason are no insulation against the subliminal influences of […]

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6 years ago

[…] a limbic level Hypergamy doesn’t care about Relational Equity and openly appealing to a woman’s reason, rationality or sense of responsibility a man believes she should be beholden to is […]

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6 years ago

[…] as with most similar efforts, appealing to a woman’s reason never ‘solves’ her problem. Hypergamy doesn’t reason, Hypergamy only feels. […]

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[…] by appealing to notions of personal responsibility. BPS makes the common error of (indirectly) appealing to women’s reason, as the rationally independent agents, who should logically want to be personally responsible for […]

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[…] Iron Rule of Tomassi it would be this: Never complain, whine, negotiate, or otherwise attempt to appeal to a woman’s reason by explaining your need for sex, intimacy or “closeness”. Nothing demonstrates lower […]

kobayashii1681
6 years ago

“I’m on record for stating that every woman is a red pill woman, it’s just getting them to drop the feminine-primary, psychological pretense and cop to red pill truths that’s the trick.”

This is very true! Just as men have to unplug, so do women!!

kobayashii1681
6 years ago

Reblogged this on 254MGTOW and commented:
“I’m on record for stating that every woman is a red pill woman, it’s just getting them to drop the feminine-primary, psychological pretense and cop to red pill truths that’s the trick.”

“As with any system…some rules can be bent, others can be broken…understand?”
Morpheus to Neo

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago

Appealing to reason
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrbgHj0bAL4
Is anti seductive

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[…] One of the primary and evolved differences in men and women’s neural firmware is that men are natural and intrinsic problem solvers. I’ve pointed it out in many an essay; men are wired to solve problems with a rudimentary, deductive logic process. It’s one of the reasons we get ourselves into such horribly misled predicaments with women; we expect a binary, A to B to C level of reason with women (reinforced by equalist ideology) and deductively try to solve a sex and intimacy problem with them. […]

Ramsey
Ramsey
5 years ago

Is intuition every better than logic? What have you guys experienced? My 36 year old live in girlfriend of 1.5 years and I have a reoccurring argument over my ex-wife. Here’s how the story goes: My ex-wife asks me to buy our daughter a snowsuit. I say ok (knowing our arrangement is that we always split these expenses). She then texts me to ask if I got the snow suit. I texted back stating I did. She then called me to confirm that I got the snow suit (she had not read her text from me yet). To my logical… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Ramsey, It is simple game. Your girlfriend simply shit tested you. In this example is too simple to Agree and Amplify. That would make you sound retarded. Perhaps the answer should be that you shouldn’t have reacted at all. And you shouldn’t explain yourself. (And your wife is simply doing what she does. That is why you are not with her anymore.) The girlfriend is testing you to see if you are a man. You are. You are providing for you daughter. This needs no explanation. Don’t get emotional about the test. Getting emotional is failing a manliness shit-test. And… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Your ex may not be fucking you any more, but she is certainly fucking with you. Your girlfriend may be emotionally overreacting, but she is not doing so without reason. She is a player of the feminine game herself and can see the moves just as clearly as you can see the moves on a chess board.

The moves are not logical, they are emotional.

Throw the girlfriend a touch of comfort game to chill her out and distance yourself a bit more from the ex. Your children are still your problem, but your ex shouldn’t be.

Ramsey
Ramsey
5 years ago
Reply to  kfg

@kfg

Great input. But what’s comfort game and you comments:

“You want to ease her around to a point where she can gather herself back up a bit and start competing by performing for you, rather than bitching at you.”

How do I do this? I’ve read both Rational Male and Preventive Med and there is little about comfort. In fact, it’s all about do what I want, develop myself, don’t care what others (she) thinks and maintain a power imbalance (not criticizing here; the books are great and true;)

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

Disclaimer, I’m a chick, but I’ll offer my impressions.

Snowsuit implies small child. Which would imply this relationship hasn’t been over for long.
The girlfriend is insecure, which is probably coming across as unattractive. Sounds like she still perceives your ex to be a threat.
On the flip side, I think she’s right about the threat (at least, the ex’s interest in trying), but she is not playing her own hand very well.

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@Ramsey – why not just acknowledge your girlfriend’s intuition, as – “hey, maybe your right, she is not over me, didn’t see it way, thanks for the input, but hey girl – you the one with sexy ass, you reading too much into my supposed lack of control with respect to what is what, by way of ordering my life the way I want, – which is – make sure my daughter is OK, make sure we good, make sure the ex is good, you/me-wise, so she can be good to my daughter. That’s my reality – need you to… Read more »

Ramsey
Ramsey
5 years ago
Reply to  Wild Man

@Wild Man

Thanks for your response. It is something that makes a lot of sense to me.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Two common forms of ex game which women play are 1) Just because you’re gone doesn’t mean I don’t still have hooks in you and can’t make you perform, and 2) Just because I don’t want you any more doesn’t mean you’re free for someone else to have you. Again, these both meet an emotional need of the ex, not a logical one. If the ex is playing either or both of these games then the girlfriend is certainly not going to be happy about it, but yeah, she’s not playing her own hand very well. Sounds like she’s totally… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Ya, your ex is using you. Not in any dramatic way, she’s just looking for tiny vacillations from you for her own sense of validation/’I still have power over him’ feeling. My ex-gf, who I still see at work, tries this little shit with me often – ‘can you grab x for me, watch the phone for me a sec, come here and fix this,’ etc. It’s a hard thing to break free of because she makes it just petty enough that it seems not worthwhile to refuse or create ‘drama’ about. But your gf senses the power dynamic and… Read more »

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

She then texts me to ask if I got the snow suit. I texted back stating I did. She then called me to confirm that I got the snow suit (she had not read her text from me yet). My girlfriend: Why did she have to call you. Could she have texted? She is obviously trying to keep her little paws on you. This is what how I interpret these words: Is this bitch saying that I am acting like some pawn for my ex-wife? agree with GF, why did she have to call you and, more important, why did… Read more »

Ramsey
Ramsey
5 years ago
Reply to  redlight

@everyone. All very good comments. I don’t know why it wasn’t clear to me. I am just so tired of having my girlfriend go off at what seems to be the most benign requests from my ex. I could not see the forest from the trees. It is tough to keep things in perspective and game my girlfriend in an LTR. She is very good to me. Does everything for me. I’ve had sex or blow jobs every day since our first date (no exaggeration) and she bakes me apple pie and mows my lawn. She is worth it. I… Read more »

Ramsey
Ramsey
5 years ago
Reply to  redlight

@redlight.

It’s a tough one when children are involved. Ex could be calling me regarding something the kids need. It’s not that I was making out with my ex and I stopped to pick up the phone. I was walking from home hardware to my car. Trust me, if I get a text and it’s not important, I respond on my own time, based on my priorities. It also gets complicated with separation agreements. I never want there to be a record that she cannot communicate with me in regards to the needs of the children.

thomasso75
5 years ago

Boy, I have been there, trying to talk and to explain my point of view. Didn’t get why she was yelling and screaming and becomming more and more mental. I actually thought that I could reason my way to her heart. What a joke it was 🙂

eghost247
4 years ago

Reblogged this on eghost247.

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[…] men who are all made of honorable intent. These are the guys for whom a rational, firm, no-nonsense appeal to a woman’s reason should be enough to not only convince her of his quality, but he expects her attraction to be based […]

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[…] with women it is this belief. In several of his interviews and podcasts he makes reference to appealing to women’s reason and negotiating terms for acceptable behavior (always a man’s behavior) in exchange for […]

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[…] with women it is this belief. In several of his interviews and podcasts he makes reference to appealing to women’s reason and negotiating terms for acceptable behavior (always a man’s behavior) in exchange for intimacy […]

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[…] may guess, the majority of these men were Betas who ‘just didn’t get it‘ and were appealing to their woman’s reason in order to resolve whatever it is that was making her turn off to […]

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[…] As you may guess, the majority of these men were Betas who ‘just didn’t get it‘ and were appealing to their woman’s reason in order to resolve whatever it is that was making her turn off to […]

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[…] I wrote Appeals to Reason I was exploring the futility of expecting women to transition into a logical reasoning of why she […]

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[…] I wrote Appeals to Reason I was exploring the futility of expecting women to transition into a logical reasoning of why she […]

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