Purgatory

purgatoryheader1

I’m going to apologize in advance to commenter Softek (hopefully you’re cool with my posting this), but his comment from The Real Nice was exactly what I was digging into this morning:

I’ll tell you where the friendzone is: it’s in your head. You want to believe that something is going to happen with a girl and that you’ve got your foot in the door because you’ve always been there for her for so long, and you always have “so much fun” when you hang out, they like you, they tell you they enjoy spending time with you.

Yeah…no.

Rollo’s said if a woman’s interested in you, she won’t confuse you.

A girl that I was not interested in was interested in me. That girl let me know she was interested in me because while we were hanging out she initiated physical contact herself, I just went along with it, and next thing I know I’m on my back and she’s pulling my boxers down and sucking my dick.

After she swallowed I figured out, “Oh. She must be interested in me. Okay.” For real. That oblivious.

And that was the second day we were hanging out. I’d never met her or hung out with her before. We’re talking 0 to 60, although in her mind when we started hanging out I guess she was already going 60. She did not tell me she liked me or cared about me or wanted to be with me. What she “said” was ask if I wanted her to go down on me, and then she did.

Night and day. I’ve known other girls for years and years and spent so much time with them and never saw one iota of pussy, and only on a couple of occasions got a hug. Nothing was ever going to happen. And I was in the friendzone in my mind. I’d spend all my time there wishing and hoping and never realized how short I was selling myself and how by being the pursuer, I’d already lost.

If you’re waiting for something to develop, you’re already fucked. I learned that one after reflecting on that experience with that other girl. That was the first time in my life any girl showed sexual interest in me — and it was very, very clear. She was the one throwing herself at me. And when she did and I just soaked it all up she was very happy about that and it was just this torrential downpour of praise and compliments and how great I was and everything inbetween.

I haven’t had a lot of experience, but the little I have had has shown me the difference between pursuing a girl who may or may not be interested in you eventually, and one who absolutely, unequivocally is. It is night and day. There’s no mistaking it.

We’re not being nice to ourselves and loving ourselves when we willingly stay in the friendzone in our minds — wishing and hoping and fantasizing. A girl who’s interested will give you so much more, and she’ll give it at the drop of a hat.

I’ve done posts in the past about the utility LJBF rejections mean to women, men’s Beta Game tactics of Playing Friends in the hopes of qualifying for a woman’s intimacy at a later date, and how men and women differ in their approaches to friendship based on their same-sex friendships. In all of these I brush a bit into the concept of the “friend zone” and how it’s really men who put themselves (usually willingly) in this state:

Men get a LJBF rejection because of a process. These are the “friends first” mindset guys; the guys who put far too much emphasis on a solitary woman and wait her out until the perfect moment to attempt to escalate to intimacy, at which point her most comfortable rejection (Buffer) is to LJBF. This is made all the more easy for her because of the process the guy used to get to that point.

[…] Get it out of your head now that you’re even in a so called “friend zone” with any woman. There is no friend zone – there is only the limbo between you being fooled that a girl is actually a friend on an equitable level to your same sex friends, and you understanding that as soon as she becomes intimate with another guy your attentions will become a liability to any relationship she might want to have with the new sexual interest and she puts you off, or you do the same when you become so involved with another girl.

I probably could have mentioned this in The Real Nice post, but I’m noticing a social trend from overly ‘empowered’ women in not simply rejecting the concept of the ‘friend zone’, but outright hostility towards the men who insist they’re forced into it. Women are angry about men complaining about the friend zone.

Neo-feminism HATES the idea of the friend zone for the same reasons it hates Faux-Nice Guys; there’s an implied state of exchange. They hate the reciprocal part of the Savior Schema because it’s considered one degree away from rape.

Nothing upsets the feminine-primary balance of sexual selectivity and betrays the secret mechanics of women’s need to optimize hypergamy than having a man overtly expose the transactional side of women’s sexual strategy. The side that puts him into a friend zone purgatory for being a ‘tryer’ when it comes to sex, but her need for his trying hasn’t reached a critical point.

This is what the friend zone does; it makes a man simultaneously responsible for, and accountable to, his want for sex by attempting to qualify for it with a woman. The friend zone is a Beta man’s punishment for expecting to be entitled to the rewards reserved for an Alpha. The Alpha doesn’t qualify himself for a woman’s intimacy, she qualifies for his sexual approval. And the longer you stay rapt by her in the friend zone the readier you’ll be when she needs your dutiful, sex-lured, providership.

If you want an example of the feminine imperative’s fluidly reinventing social conventions for itself look no further than how the concept of the ‘friend zone’ has evolved since the mid 90′s. In 1994 it was cute in an “Aww, hang in there fella, she’ll come around to loving you for who you are eventually (once she’s “grown” from the experiences of banging bad boys). In 2014 it’s  “Any guy who thinks he’s in the so called friend zone is just a potential rapist because he thinks he’s owed sex for his friendship.”

A Way Out of Hell

One of the most common questions you’ll read from desperate blue pill men, not just in the manosphere, but on damn near every dating forum, to Dear Abby, to AskMen is “How do I get out of the friendzone?” Type that question into a Google query and look at the number of returns you get. The question of course is usually followed by some plea for advice or a script to follow in order to finally get with the Girl of his Dreams®, and rationally and reasonably make her aware of how he measures up to everything on her ‘boyfriend list’.

If you want some actionable Game advice about the ‘friend zone’ here it is – leave it yourself!

Even if you think you have the best and noblest of intentions in your White Knight ‘friend zone’ status, the fact remains that women in general, and the woman you have set your noble intent upon, will consider your ‘friend zoning’ a prison of your own making – not theirs.

Even the most complicit or implicit woman in a guy’s ‘friend zoning’ will never accept the liability for placing him into that state, and even the most culpable woman in this will still resent him; not just for pointing out her own participation in it, but because it irrecoverably confirms him as being a Beta chump who would allow himself to participate in his own ‘friend zoning’.

If you believe you’re in some friend zone with a woman, never overtly admit to or complain about it with anyone, man or woman – you will only reaffirm your perception of being a necessitous Beta. Men will judge, women will talk, and your self-perception gets caught in a negative feedback loop.

Next, remember Iron Rule of Tomassi #7:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #7
It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. Never root through the trash once the garbage has been dragged to the curb. You get messy, your neighbors see you do it, and what you thought was worth digging for is never as valuable as you thought it was.

Your “friend zoning” is a failed relationship. Approach new women, develop new prospects. A Woman doesn’t want the ‘liability’ of implied sexual exchange (actual or imagined) for your friendship? Don’t give it her.

 


135 responses to “Purgatory

  • scratche2013

    Understanding this a major breakthrough for young guys to make; allowing yourself to be through “friend zone” shit demonstrates a total lack of respect for yourself. Much better to accept the rejection and move on.

  • LiveFearless

    “How do I get out of the friendzone?” Type that question into a Google query and look at the number of returns you get.

    And, when you do, add something like “Learn how at http://www.therationalmale.com by Rollo Tomassi” – Drive those ‘men’ here instead of the funded sites designed to cause them further damage.

  • Mack Bolan

    This is also a breakthough to us older guys. I’ve always logically understood why the “friend zone” is bad but reading this article finally made sense for me on a visceral level.

  • Carlos

    One reason when you get put in the friend zone why you should “next” the girl and move on that you don’t mention is that it increases your value with other women. When other women see you refusing to accept being friend zoned, it increases your status with them. It also gives you more confidence and a feeling of higher intrinsic value in your dealings with women.

  • jf12

    What is it that women who do have a friendzoned man, or beta orbiter (these may be the same groupings in most dimensions), think that they as women are contributing to the man? Do the women think they really are as fun to be around as the man’s male friends? Are they doing the things the man wants to do? Are they treating the man like a man, or like a girl? These are easy questions to answer honestly, aren’t they?

  • DeNihilist

    LOL! Thinking back to when I was young and had a crush on a buddy’s girl friend. Knew I would be better for her then him, et cet er a!

    Well make a long story short, realized finally, that she was just a piece of pussy, that I would dump eventually, but a good buddy is forever. Gave her a kitten and said goodbye.

  • D-man

    Allowing oneself to be friendzoned is one of the ultimate stupidities a man can commit. You are in Purgatory. Firstly, you aren’t getting a girlfriend/lay like you want, and secondly, since women aren’t capable of friendship as men know it, you aren’t even getting a friend out of the situation. Lose-Lose. Cut and run.

  • walawala

    The point is the “Friendzone” is only what it is if you let it be. If you want to be “friends” with a girl, it’s ok. I have a variety of female friends who do stuff for me, or occasionally with me. I’m friends with 2 of my exes and wouldn’t think of banging them again..they’re kind of like sisters.

    But I’m very conscious of any attempts by girls to call me a ‘friend’ and will disappear if I’m interested in them and this happens.

    Alternately I have used the Krauser technique of explaining “I’m a man, I see you as a woman, if you aren’t ready for sex, that’s ok, but I’m not interested in being friends with you.”

    That is usually enough to make them either snap out of it, or stop wasting your time.

  • Mark Minter

    I wish to contribute this concept of The New Other.

    There are two different sorts of “others”. From a consciousness standpoint, there is a little “me” and a big “Me”, a little “other” and big “Other”.

    A person’s definition of the ‘Other’ is part of what defines or even constitutes the self (in both a psychological and philosophical sense) and other phenomena and cultural units. It has been used in social science to understand the processes by which societies and groups exclude ‘Others’ whom they want to subordinate or who do not fit into their society. The concept of ‘otherness’ is also integral to the comprehending of a person, as people construct roles for themselves in relation to an ‘other’ as part of a process of reaction that is not necessarily related to stigmatization or condemnation. Othering is imperative to national identities, where practices of admittance and segregation can form and sustain boundaries and national character. Othering helps distinguish between home and away, the uncertain or certain. However, it often involves the demonization and dehumanization of groups, which further justifies attempts to civilize and exploit these ‘inferior’ others.

    The idea of an “Other” is used as the basis of an actual or defacto Imperialism such that there is the creation and maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural and/or territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination. The maintenance of this unequal relationship wholly depends on the subordination of an “other” group or peoples, from which resources can be taken and land can be exploited.

    “Other”, then, describes the process of justifying the domination of individuals or groups in the periphery to facilitate subordination. The creation of the other is done by highlighting their weakness, thus extenuating the moral responsibility of the stronger self to educate, convert, or civilize depending on the identity of the other.

    Scholars have argued that the process of othering has everything to do with knowledge, and power acting through knowledge to achieve a particular political agenda in its goal of domination. Edward Said quotes the following from Nietzsche, saying what is the truth of language but
    “…a mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, a sum of human relations, which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are.”

    Simone de Beauvoir changed the notion of the Other, for use in her description of male-dominated culture. This treats woman as the Other in relation to man. The Other has thus become an important concept for studies of the sex-gender system. Beauvoir calls the Other the minority, the least favored one and often a woman, when compared to a man, “for a man represents both the positive and the neutral, as indicated by the common use of man to designate human beings in general; whereas woman represents only the negative, defined by limiting criteria, without reciprocity” ). Betty Friedan supported this thought when she interviewed women and the majority of them identified themselves in their role in the private sphere, rather than addressing their own personal achievements. They automatically identified as the Other without knowing. Although the Other may be influenced by a socially constructed society, one can argue that society has the power to change this creation.

    And it has.

    And now, in the minds of women, you are now their “Other”, their “negro”, their “Palestinian” or “Arab”. You are now their marginalized group their subordinate group. You are the “not me” in their “little other” and their “Not Us” in their big Other. And for the past 100 years, and definitely for the last 50 they have gone about changing the law and the language that continually forces you into this role, and is further institutionalizing your place in it.

    And because they have created you as the new “Other”, ipso factor whether you recognize it or not, they have become your new “Other”. And it is an “Other” that transcends any other “Other” because it is more proximate, more immediate, and it affects your life in a day to day manner as no other “Other” even begins. Those other “Others” are symbolic constructs of the culture, of empire, And this new “Other” is real.

    And you are losing to it because you do not recognize it as what it is. The major men’s sites dance around it, talk about it, describe it without actually calling it out as the immediate threat it poses.

    The closest that anyone has come to calling it out and naming it for what it is has been Rational Male in its definition and description of The Feminine Imperative.

    And what we can consider The Feminine Imperative to be is what Simon Shepard calls Malign Encouragement, encouraging an opponent to take a strategy that is harmful to the opponent yet beneficial to the your side.

    Altruism is an attribute of humans and particularly of men. But it is reserved for those considered “kindred”, the big “Me”. And when altruism is given to your “Other” then in no way will it ever be appreciated nor reciprocated. You aid and abet your opponent.

    For the past tens of thousands of years, both men and women, have been part of what could be considered the “big Me”. In any species there is both confrontation and cooperation between males and females, with a degree of mutual exploitation that arrived at some symbiosis. And that big “Me” has evolved what is considered “kindred” from the family, to the ethnic group, and to the national.

    But today, that is no longer true. Their “big Me” is the global community of women, and men have become their “Other”. This is recently shown by the response to Boku Harram and the global outpouring of condemnation from women all over the western world. And with what could be called Gratuitous Generosity on the part of women to shell out millions of western dollars, produced from the labors of men, to gain the return of 250 girls from Africa. 50 boys where murdered and burnt and not a peep. But let these girls get taken to be made wives and Goddamit send the Marines now!!.

    And this new “Other” is irrelevant of blood because today, gender is thicker than water. Many men have related of the resistance and rejection of men by female family members upon learning of Red Pill beliefs and practices or even the harsh retribution for taking any position that might contradict Malign Encouragement.

    What often happens on Rational Male is that some aspect from hypergamy, “war brides”, examples of this new “Other” is pointed out as an example of the marginalization of men or some Malign Encouragement is called out and men are enraged because they are thinking in the paradigm of the old “Us”.

    These Nice Guy and the Friendzone memes are both examples of Malign Encouragement. From a social standpoint it aids all women by transferring the support, both material and otherwise, from women to men, Second, from a sexual standpoint, it identifies the “lower status” sucker male to the female, and she gains resources and support without paying the reciprocal sexual costs that should come in a “tit for tat” male/female relationship.

    And Feminists in particular, and women, in general, for obvious reasons, refuse to acknowledge the calling out by men of methods of Malign Encouragement, and refuse to acknowledge that a new “Other” has been created. The end of male altruism, the end of male support, the recognition of the existence of this new “other” does not work in the benefit of furthering the welfare of the new “Other” nor facilitate the institutionalizing of it.

    And once the wheel turns, once men recognize the new reality and begin to turn to face women as their new “Other” then the battle gets a lot tougher for women. And they need to push the boundaries and gain as much institutional strength as possible before that happens.

    The Nice Guy and Friendzone memes are widely recognized examples of this New Other. The post on ROK about Flaking is another example of it. Women flake because they have no respect for men, and because there is always another sucker ready to step in to aid and abet them.

    It is said that in the War Between the Sexes there is too much fraternization. But the flip side of these two memes is that women will cross the lines, actually are compelled to cross the lines for their “right” one with no material support required for them to do so. But they will let that man know through word and deed that he is “the one”. Any attempt to lure them via care, provisioning, support or altruism makes you sucker and someone who aids and abets his opponent.

    It is natural to support those that are kindred to you because in a biological sense, the propagation of their genes is in a direct way a further propagation of yours.

    But the reality is that when you aid and abet a woman, when you give her a job, when you assist her in any way, when you allow her to perform any service for money at the expense of a man, when you support her in any way that does haven’t a direct material or sexual reciprocation to you, then you are indirectly harming yourself and you are being played for a fool by Malign Encouragement. She would not extend the same consideration for you and in fact, she does view you as her “Other” and her opponent.

    So when you see them take down another man, when you see some legal or political gain, when you aid and assist her, when you do not actively resist, fight, and material harm her, then you allow the construction of institutional segregation and marginalization of you as the New Other , …

    Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you.

  • Bellum

    Dead on Rollo!

    My best friend is a natural. After I got into Game I started observing his behaviours.
    After a while, I noticed that, although both were good, it wasn’t his physique or social status that distinguished him from other men.
    So I asked him what his secret was. He said you had to do NOTHING, just create casual opportunities to get together.
    It’s so counterintuitive that it’s almost maddening: to get women you have to do nothing out of the ordinary. Just be the best man you can be and go your merry way through life.

    The only difficulty then becomes meeting women and setting up these casual opportunities.
    The answer is: activities and having a girlfriend. You’ll meet tons of women, and you’re beyond suspicion.

  • BC

    A good example post on leaving the Friend Zone by Ian Ironwood:
    http://theredpillroom.blogspot.ca/2013/01/mike-makes-breakthrough.html

    If you want some actionable Game advice about the ‘friend zone’ here it is – leave it yourself! … A Woman doesn’t want the ‘liability’ of implied sexual exchange (actual or imagined) for your friendship? Don’t give it her.

    Yep- Next!

  • Bellum

    @ Rollo

    What if it’s not just the implied transactional nature that vexes women, but women experiencing it as a lack of understanding of the transactional nature on your part?
    After all, direct game or innuendo wouldn’t work if women were offended by the transactional nature, and women love to be sexually dominated and often have rape fantasies.
    Maybe on a deeper level, it’s perceived as a social handicap of a man: “he just doesn’t get it”, it being the transactional nature in this case.

  • MigrantWorker

    Ah, but leaving a friendzone by one’s own accord would mean that the woman gets what she wants (well some of it at least), while man gets none of what he wants – and that is “not fair”. This may well be the biggest stumbling block for men falling into the friendzone.

  • Badpainter

    MigrantWorker,

    The friend zone is not a consolation prize.

    Two forces conspire to trap men into the friend zone and keep them there.

    1. The man’s own delusions about the efficacy of staying in the zone.

    2. Social stigma and shaming when the man says “I don’t want to be your friend.” Which is somehow a terrifically aggressive rejection for a woman.

    The man who can’t bare the shame of rejecting the zone will be trapped. The first step toward freedom learning to say “no.” The second is the realization the that opinions of others don’t mean shit.

  • The Burninator

    when the man says “I don’t want to be your friend.” Which is somehow a terrifically aggressive rejection for a woman.

    Sounds like a fantastic reason to reject LJBF. It is a major axe and saw of destruction to her pedestal in her eyes.

  • Joe

    When I read about the blow job what I now see is that women just pretend to like to do that because of the things they really like — i.e. having control of the man their hypergamous instincts have zoned in on… trapping him… ensnaring him….weakening him.

    Bottom line: what duplicitous, usury, narcissists women are. Plus they think they are so good at it but frankly it’s usually nothing much more than assisted masturbation by someone who doesn’t know what they are doing.

  • Nick (@patientambition)

    Don’t have female friends, period. Of course you’ll have acquaintances, but given that even most men are chumps not worth hanging out with, why waste your time on women you aren’t having sex with? One thing to watch out for is women you’ve approached and started to date, but haven’t yet had sex with. If things aren’t progressing as you want them to over the initial 1-5 dates (America vs Eastern Europe), stop investing lest you become the plate she’s spinning.

  • theasdgamer

    When I was friendzoned twice when I was single decades ago, I naturally immediately ceased having any interest in the women.

    I’m curious how other married men deal with women friends, especially if you’re active socially and don’t tomcat.

  • Joe

    Another fantastic post.

  • vinay3543

    The Iron Rule says it all. Too many men believe they will never find better than what they have/recently held onto, and they pursue on a lost cause. All this achieves is inflating a woman’s ego, but unless she is pretty much unwanted herself – hence low quality woman not worth the effort – she will never be sexually aroused to the point of taking him back.

    More reasons are highlighted below to why men are the emotive pursuers and women, up to a certain age, are the ones with options:

    http://www.vinaywcmd.com/2014/05/men-are-clingier-than-women.html

  • jf12

    @theasdgamer, I have a number of women friends socially especially from church, but don’t hang out with them except as couples with our spouses. No flirting at all.

    But I am also involved in a number of extracurricular, so to speak, activities, many of which primarily involve young single women. This summer I will be in a weeklong Vacation Bible School with dozens of young women (and other people, of course), a weeklong missions trip to Mexico with dozens of young women (and other people, of course), and teaching a weeklong STEM teacher continuing education course to with dozens of young women (and other people, of course).

    By not flirting, I friendzone myself so there is no problematic aspect.

  • Gnarkillicious

    Your posts always come at the exact time I need them. Can’t express my gratitude enough, or the great freedom, confidence and success with women I have experienced since taking the red pill. Keep up the great work. It is greatly appreciated.

    [Glad to hear it.]

  • theasdgamer

    @ jf12

    I think that friendzoning implies that the one friendzoned has expressed a sexual interest in the other person and has been refused with LJBF. “Not flirting” is not the same as friendzoning or being friendzoned. I think we need a term for a friendship of an indeterminate state, like “neutral zone.”

  • titanic

    One of the best parts of having taken the red pill is having the ability to judge a relationship as going nowhere and simply moving on without drama or consternation.

  • jf12

    @theasdgamer, yeah I guess the terminology is erratic. But there’s erraticness all over the place. There’s voluntary friendzoning e.g. as a strategy to later work up the courage to flirt, there’s involuntary friendzoning e.g. as in “I like you but not in that way. LJBF.” And, I think, there is also the situation in which the one who might have interest (i.e., the man) decides to never exhibit any interest.

  • titanic

    I frequently see blue-pill friends get into slightly higher level of purgatory than the friendzone. They’re fucking the girl, but she doses out the pussy like a lab scientist would give cheese to a rat. In exchange he’s at her beckon call, being expected to attend events, buy dinners, run 10k’s, watch dogs, etc whenever she asks. When he complains or breaks a date the girl cries and whines and generally makes him feel like the bad guy. When she breaks a date he wonders what he did wrong.

    I’m not sure how to label this situation but I think it’s worse than the friendzone because the guy can easily persuade himself and his friends that it’s a real relationship.

  • titanic

    In my blue pill days, I would see a cute girl and guy on a lunchtime walk at the (85% male) campus where I work and think “wow, what a lucky dude”. Now when I see the same situation I think “wow, what a chump”.

  • theoak

    I wonder when the last time friend zone worked? Did it ever? Perhaps at some point before feminism took hold it might have worked, but I can’t see it having worked in the last decade or two.

    There is no incentive for women to pull a guy out of the friend zone: she already has what she wants (most of the same benefits of being in a relationship) without having had to exchange the sex for it, by giving the sex she feels less utility from the exchange. It should never work because the guy is giving his only bargaining chip for free.

    I actually have a pretty interesting anecdote to add some color.

    In college, I basically put a girl in the ‘friend zone’. She was pretty and cool, but I was not a fan of her body (no boobs, no ass or legs but skinny) so I hung out with her from time to time to sort of back-burner her while I saw other girls.

    Then after college when I had not yet embraced going to clubs, etc and started getting frustrated with the quantity of girls I was meeting, I thought that maybe I should give her a chance now. But instead of just continuing on as normal and waiting for a chance to escalate one of her advances, one day I just said something along the lines of ‘I think we should date.’ She basically just said some stuff like I’m not your type, you’re not attracted to me, ljbf. After that I hung out with her just once or twice, she had already said she wanted to come out for my birthday or something along those lines but then I just got ‘too busy’ to hang out with her, etc.

    A year or so goes by and she texts that she saw me driving through the city (I have a unique car), how am I, etc. Replied back with something pretty short, uninterested. She wrote back “who was the blonde you were with?” (LOL). A few more texts back and forth and she suggests we meet for dinner to catch up.

    Go to dinner, she offers to pay. She got implants, she talked about them a lot. Walk back to my apartment and she starts asking me about my dating life or whatever. I told her that she was right, she isn’t my type. Not just physically, but personality as well. I had thought I wanted a smart, low key, ‘good’ girl like her to date but the last year or so has taught me that I like the dumb, fun party girls a lot better and having much more fun being single and seeing tons of girls than I would be in a relationship.

    She started qualifying herself immediately, telling me about how she has been going out more, etc.

    I had plans to meet up with some friends/girl at a club, so it was time for her to leave. It was raining so I said I would drop her off at her car. When I stopped, she climbed over on to my side and and started making out with me. After a little bit of that she asked me to bring her back to my apartment. I said ‘that’s not a good idea, let’s just stay friends like you wanted’.

    Most mindblown face I’ve ever seen.

    Frame is crucial.

  • fatmanjudo

    you do realize the purgatory picture is a stylized vagina.

    [Ding! Ding! Ding! Tell him what he's won Johnny,…]

  • Softek

    I’m cool with it.

    This is good stuff. And the “Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite” post is gold.

    I’m still running on the subconscious AFC script. I am doing the faster EFT tapping to try to clear this out. At its roots it’s self-neglect.

    For me it isn’t only with women. My boss yells at me at work and I always just take it and even feel guilty and stupid, even though I work very hard and have never missed a single day. I get a 15 minute break and I almost never take it, because I cover for other people who aren’t doing their job as well. I stay late and put up with abuse and even feel ashamed of myself for my boss blowing up on me — it’s his issue but deep down I feel like I really did do something wrong and that I’m a bad person.

    I (*used to*) let people walk all over me and never respect my own wants and needs, and I’ve generally done this equally with women and men for as long as I can remember. Not only doing favors for women and getting nothing in return, but carting my friends around and paying for things for them and them not always even thanking me and never doing anything for me.

    So the fact that I (*used to*) not respect my own sexual desires is no surprise either. The temptation for me to just go MGTOW (*was*) very great, because I (*was) so used to being alone, and (*was*) so used to repressing my sexuality and feeling guilty and ashamed of myself, I would feel more comfortable neglecting myself and going more and more years with no sexual contact at all, rather than have sex with a girl who was willing to have sex with me, but on my own terms instead of hers.

    Sour grapes.

    And that’s ridiculous. But it does show that a lot of these subconscious programs run very deep. That’s what I’m tapping on: the self-abandonment, the self-neglect, the self-denial, the feeling of being less and deserving less.

    I would imagine most or all AFCs will have ‘red flags’ in all areas of their lives. Not living up to their potential, or even anywhere remotely near it, in their careers, having friends that don’t support them or care about them, in addition to having poor or nonexistent sex lives and/or terrible and stressful relationships that they feel they have no control over.

    And dealing with incredible amounts of stress all alone. A lot of girls will feel a little lonely and frustrated because of their lack of security in their AFC boyfriend and not even think twice about fucking someone else while they’re still going out with them. Not even a thought.

    And yet AFC Joe will be standing over in the corner ready to hang himself instead of dumping whatever girl he’s after/with that isn’t working out, because he feels so trapped in his subconscious guilt and shame and self-neglect, he can’t even conceive that he has every right to move on and take his share of the pie for himself.

    The good thing is we can change. Instead of depending on other people to be nice to us and love us, we have to learn to depend on ourselves. Be nice to you, love you, take care of you, respect you.

  • deti

    Badpainter:

    “Two forces conspire to trap men into the friend zone and keep them there.

    1. The man’s own delusions about the efficacy of staying in the zone.

    2. Social stigma and shaming when the man says “I don’t want to be your friend.” Which is somehow a terrifically aggressive rejection for a woman.”

    These are great points, BP, and things that men often don’t understand until they really look at it.

    Women mercilessly shame men for not accepting the “offer” of “LJBF”. A man who says “that’s not acceptable to me” is, within the FI, a dickhead, an asshole, a selfish jerk who just wants to get into her pants. That means he’s shallow and “doesn’t want her for who she really is”.

    The thing Rollo and Softek have laid out here is that LJBF is not an “offer” of anything. Get it through your heads: LJBF IS REJECTION. It is nothing more than a way for a woman to reject you while saving face and not looking like a bitch. The thing is that women somehow rationalize LJBF into a belief that she’s offered you something – friendship – which she really hasn’t. If you say to her “I’m not interested in being your ‘friend’” she views this as some sort of aggressive rejection, when it really isn’t. It might be to her hamster, but it isn’t to you.

    It’s a rejection to her hamster because it makes very clear to her that she’s a sexual creature and that’s her primary value. But it really isn’t a rejection, because she’s not really, truly offering you friendship. She’s in fact offered nothing at all. So you aren’t really “rejecting” her; you’re simply pointing out that you’re not interested in her offer of nothing.

  • Just Saying

    Over the years I’ve developed various habits that I slip into when with women socially, and they are based on being in a relationship with the woman who is on my right side. It isn’t something I think about – it just is. So whenever I’m with a woman, if she is on my right side I am going to take certain liberties without thinking about it. So if sitting by her side, my hand rests high up on her inner thigh and I’ll gently knead her flesh. If I hug her, my hand slips down the back of her pants under her underwear. It isn’t something that I think about – it just is. So unless I am actively fighting against it, it happens. Usually, it’s not obvious, and sometimes I’ll catch myself. Once I was with a date’s younger sister and she ended up on my right hand side – made for an interesting turn of events.

    I have found that those habits have broken through more hesitation on the woman’s part than almost anything else. Now, I’m a LOT older than a lot of the women I date, so there is a lot of hesitancy on the part of some of the women I’m with when it comes to where they stand. With a young guy they know, but with me, should they act like a daughter, a lover, what? Now the ones that I’m hooking up with for a night after a performance there is none of this hesitancy since they know why they are there, and where things are going, but when I meet a woman associated with one of my other hobbies – should they act like a student? There are lots of unknowns for her – of course, I’m oblivious and just do what I do. When I have my arms wrapped around her, a hand down the back of her jeans, and holding her close – she knows exactly where she stands. More than a few times I have felt the woman tense-up when I pull her close, then relax against me and that says all that needs to be said. She is comfortable, and accepting of where-ever I take her.

    Most men put themselves in the “friend-zone” – for the most part the women are willing if you are man enough (Dominant enough) to take them. I’ve had some women push back, and I’ll just respond with something like, “I have lots of friends, and don’t need or want another.” That pretty much states it right out in the open as to why she is there. She can stay or walk – if she stays she’ll be in my bed soon enough. Those are the rules of the game – and it’s my game, so I make the rules. Too many men, play by the woman’s rules – and women HATE that. They want to be submissive to the man – so be man enough to make her feel like a woman.

  • Mark Fox (@swiftfoxmark2)

    Women are not friends of men. They never can be your friends and they never will be. The sex thing will always get in the way.

    So instead of trying to be her husband before you’ve sealed the deal, go out and live your life on your terms. Take no crap from any woman, no matter what her standing is in your life, and simply find contentment in what you want to do.

  • jf12

    @titanic “I’m not sure how to label this situation”

    Um, marriage?

  • jf12

    @theoak, “I wonder when the last time friend zone worked? Did it ever?”

    According to women, and to bluepill men, it’s the only thing that “really” works.

  • theoak

    @jf12 “According to women, and to bluepill men, it’s the only thing that “really” works.”

    I beg to differ, as rollo points out in the main post, women are now equating friend zone to rape. Perhaps they did before.

  • jf12

    Seriously, every woman believes her true love will emerge from among her beta orbiters, suddenly revealing himself in the time of her need as the Sun that he really is.

  • having a bad day

    “If you believe you’re in some friend zone with a woman, never overtly admit to or complain about it with anyone, man or woman – you will only reaffirm your perception of being a necessitous Beta. Men will judge, women will talk, and your self-perception gets caught in a negative feedback loop.”

    not only your self-perception, but the perception of any new girl that you meet…if you’re in the friend zone with any other girl (and the new girl finds out…), you will have a much harder time escaping that same fate with your new prospect, since she can already see your lower SMV…

    it’s just the pre-selection effect in play with a negative value assigned to you…

  • jf12

    Re: women talk. I mention that this young woman admits that women’s “boy toys” are beta orbiters that the women lead on, deliberately.
    http://thoughtcatalog.com/annaleta-nichols/2014/05/tired-of-dealing-with-nice-guys-youve-only-got-yourself-to-blame/
    “In girl world, there is an unspoken yet universal truth that girls will hang out with any guy that gives them attention. In other words, girls like complaining about the guy that just won’t stop texting them, the guy that asks them out like every other week, and the guys who gives “super inappropriate” valentines gifts, because they have carefully fostered this relationship to give them a reason to complain.”

  • Angry Gamer

    Notes from Mark Minter’s War and Peace Comment. :)

    A Woman Friendzoning a man is a form of Malign Encouragement
    A Woman makes the man a New Other
    The Woman thus encourages the New Other(Man) to take a strategy that is harmful to the Man

    Men wish to make the Woman to be Kindred (through mating, relationship etc).
    Men initate an Altruism strategy to hopefully change the Woman’s mind. (becomes nice guy)
    But the Woman’s Friendzone strategy prevents this eventuality.
    (Mark Minter’s ‘Aid and Abet Man’s opponent’ comment)

    (Mark Minter’s ‘Women flake because they have no respect for men, and because there is always another sucker ready to step in to aid and abet them.’)
    Always a greater fool theory??

    So in essence Women Friendzone, Flake and Exploit Nice Guys because there is a perception that there is ALWAYS ANOTHER SUCKER.
    Until the Wall and then there are no suckers left.

    (Mark’s Comment: “Any attempt to lure them via care, provisioning, support or altruism makes you sucker and someone who aids and abets his opponent.”)
    AKA – you can’t buy your way out of Friendzone/Purgatory.

    Money Quote from Mark:
    “But the reality is that when you aid and abet a woman, when you give her a job, when you assist her in any way, when you allow her to perform any service for money at the expense of a man, when you support her in any way that does haven’t a direct material or sexual reciprocation to you, then you are indirectly harming yourself and you are being played for a fool by Malign Encouragement. She would not extend the same consideration for you and in fact, she does view you as her “Other” and her opponent.”

    This is very profound… And I completely agree without sexual reciprocity there is NO REASON for a Man to play with a Woman/Other.
    Because there is no utility for a Man if Sex is removed from the game/relationship/interaction.

    So in point of fact a Man SHOULD only care about sex while interacting with a woman. Or else a man is harmed by the interaction.

    In Game Theory terms the optimal play is to play for Sex or don’t play at all.

  • M3

    “If you want some actionable Game advice about the ‘friend zone’ here it is – leave it yourself!”

    “Your “friend zoning” is a failed relationship. Approach new women, develop new prospects. A Woman doesn’t want the ‘liability’ of implied sexual exchange (actual or imagined) for your friendship? Don’t give it her.”

    I did. I stopped giving it to her. I moved on.

    You don’t know how hard society comes down on you when you actually do decide to develop new prospects, move on, deny the original target any more time/attention/affection, to not give it to her everything you used to give her.

    You become the epitome of evil for a) having lied about friendship because all you wanted to do was get into her pants and b) not carrying on the platonic/utility friendship that she has become accustomed to. Your beta weakness and believing in the feminine imperatives script that locked you into ‘do nice things/be rewarded with romantic relationship’ trope now becomes a prison you aren’t allowed to leave once you realize you were duped into walking into that prison.

    It doesn’t matter that the person you are now, wide awake and awash in red pill – finally realizes that if you knew then what you knew now, you’d never have progressed down that path of ‘friendship first fuck second’. If you were the man back then that you are today, you would have realized you never had anything in common, and that you only created the happily ever after in your mind because you were in a position of weakness, not able to go after what you wanted. Left to bargain. Left to negotiate. With the power of raising your SMV, and understanding redpill truth, you would never have negotiated, pursued a friendship you never wanted, you just wanted to do the biological down and dirty with her because you were attracted to her.

    So you attempt to do now, what you couldn’t back then when you were full of ignorance and still plugged in.

    Your attempt to remove yourself from that toxic situation so you can progress and move forward in your own life is seen as an assault against the woman who actively did nothing to dissuade (and even helped contain you within your own delusion by saying just the right hopeful thing at the right time when it seemed you might be waking up and moving on. nothing more persuasive than a ‘fools hope’.) you from painfully orbiting her in the most overt and obvious manor. No woman is so painfully blind or oblivious to a man in love with her. Plausible deniability must be a fun game to play.

    That is the conundrum those freshly connected constructs face. Those without the redpill are blind, and willfully fall into the pit of LJBF with eyes wide open, believing they are on the path to romantic reciprocity. And once they begin to manifest the redpill will to leave because what they desire is not reciprocated, they are told they cannot leave but must endure the situation to prove their humanity, to prove they aren’t bad ‘not nice guys’. They must now double down on nice to prove that they’re not the ‘niceguys’ of today. Quite circular if you ask me.

    Admiral Gial Ackbar would call it as he see’s it.

  • cryo

    I’m just theorizing, but the tendency of females to want to “remain friends” after they dump you is evidence of this dynamics. By befriending you, they are essentially desexualizing you. It is easier to move on from someone when they remain in your life platonically. Female “friendship” is really an eradication tactic.

    In the occasions where my exes didn’t attempt to sustain a false friendship, it was because their hamsters were angry and offended at me for subverting the feminine imperative. In every case like this, I would eventually hear from them again after a period of no contact, and their intentions were nothing less than romantic.

    Conclusion: it is better to be hated by women than to be their friend.

  • theasdgamer

    Looking at the flip side of this as a married man. I’ve had “The Chat” with several women friends about how we can enjoy chemistry as long as my boundaries are respected. That way you avoid scorning them by putting them in the friend zone (Hell hath no fury…) and avoid having to worry about their intrigues trying to get you into bed. They still get the tingles and attention they crave and they do stuff for you. Win/win.

  • Badpainter

    Another aspect of the friend zone men misunderstand is the notion of investment. They, we, I believe/believed that by demonstrating righteous behavior that eventually rewards will flow. What is misunderstood is that women live only in the now. They do not appreciate the past or the future. Since the woman is getting what she wants now why would she suddenly reward that at some point in the future?

    Men however are brought up to be very oriented toward the future. Today’s plowing is food for next winter. The first day in the gym is next years better health and future strength. We regularly delay gratification for greater future rewards.

    What the guy trapped in the zone must realize is that he is currently reaping the only reward he is going to get. There is no future because he can’t negotiate escrow with someone who can’t see beyond the now.

    Lastly, men give far too much credit to women for their thoughts and words. Mostly women are frivolous, banal, intellectually dishonest, and never to be taken seriously when discussing anything that is not tangible and objective. The friend zone is not tangible it does not exist unless one chooses to believe it exists.

    The social pressure to stay in the zone is simply gas lighting. What the man exiting/refusing the must do is question the motives of those who wood keep him in the zone. Women need him to mind his place lest he inspire rebellion. White knights need him to mind his place so as defend and validate their own choices, and because they are groveling for the FI’s approval.

  • Steve H

    @deti –

    “The thing Rollo and Softek have laid out here is that LJBF is not an “offer” of anything. Get it through your heads: LJBF IS REJECTION.”

    LJBF is also usurious annexation of another planet moon.

    “So you aren’t really “rejecting” her; you’re simply pointing out that you’re not interested in her offer of nothing.”

    And you’re not interested in being a pro bono addendum to her sociosexual insurance policy.

  • Marky Mark

    Article makes sense…. but what if you use the girl’s presence as social proof for pre selection to get other girls. I think the mistake guys make is HOPING that it will turn into a relationship… even if you are alpha not every girl will want to date you but knowing how to turn that to your advantage with other girls is a good thing.

  • cryo

    “Lastly, men give far too much credit to women for their thoughts and words. Mostly women are frivolous, banal, intellectually dishonest, and never to be taken seriously when discussing anything that is not tangible and objective. The friend zone is not tangible it does not exist unless one chooses to believe it exists.”

    Yes, well put. Even on “manosphere” blogs, the comments are tainted by female influence and those males that would choose to engage them. There is nothing to be gained from arguing with women, the most that will happen is she will be unmoved by the male’s logical points and he will come out stupider and emotionally tinged by the female’s insouciant dishonesty.

  • jf12

    @Badpainter, re: “What the guy trapped in the zone must realize is that he is currently reaping the only reward he is going to get. There is no future because he can’t negotiate escrow with someone who can’t see beyond the now.”

    Hmm. So men’s attention-surplus investment strategy fails because women don’t see it as an investment at all, simply a gift. “Gee, thanks for these flowers, I’ll toss them on the pile.”

  • deti

    M3:

    Well stated as to the typical female response to the man saying “no thanks” to LJBF.

    She views rejection of her “friendship” as a personal affront, the lowest insult one can visit upon her; the functional equivalent of shitting on her porch. A beta man should be delighted that she deigns and stoops to give him the scraps from her table; he is the epitome of rudeness for declining. “Why, how DARE any man REFUSE to be MY friend!!”

  • kfg

    “The answer is: activities”

    OK. Where do I get those?

  • M3

    Deti

    “She views rejection of her “friendship” as a personal affront, the lowest insult one can visit upon her; the functional equivalent of shitting on her porch.”

    I’ll do you one better. I’ll say every woman who has an orbiter knows full well the final outcome once he becomes aware enough to change his own SMV and leave her orbit. She doesn’t care one lick about losing the “friendship” – that’s only the what she wants you to think, what she portrays.

    She was never your “friend”. People generally don’t put their ‘friends’ through an unusual amount of torment (unless they are narcissistic sociopaths). Every woman knows when a guy is interested in them. It’s just the game of plaus/denail that allows them to portray it as shock when the poor guy finally ‘outs’ himself to her. If she puts up an affront, a very tiny portion would be rationalizing or justifying it to herself to feel the victim. The attempt to shame and guilt a guy back into the friendzone is to keep his utility within arms reach, nothing more.

    She’s not pissed that you’re tossing away ‘a great friendship over sex’. She’s pissed because she has one less orbiter to siphon off of all the emotional platonic needs she craves but cannot extract from her alpha lover.

    By walking away from LJBF, you’re cutting the cord and you stop enabling her from enjoying the comforting/life/loving qualities of being in a relationship without reciprocating the relational need a man requires from a relationship. The sex she’s trading to her alpha lover for a bag of skittles.

    That’s the only reason they get mad. They get mad that they now have to actually try to extract all that shit you gave for free from their non cooperative skittle bearing lover. And the comfy life they had of dual sexual strategy gets upended.

    You rocked their boat – she demands you get back in line.

    Don’t give it her.

    If every man in LJBF woke up tomorrow and left the zone, the inequality in the suicide rate would vanish. With no more shoulders to cry on, no more dumping grounds, and forced to demand these platonic displays from the men they have sex with.. well, i think some snowflakes just couldn’t tolerate a world like that.

  • zodak

    you write the best posts about the friendzone than anyone else on the net. that’s why i linked to it on my own friendzone post.

    if only i had discovered your blog 7 years ago. i try to spread your words to young men but it’s not easy.

  • FWB

    I remember breaking up with a past gf right after pumping her twice – raw. She completely flipped and started to freak out by crying and calling the whole situation ridiculous. “I can’t believe you! Really ! You fucked me twice completely raw! I thought you were different; you’re just like all of them!”

    I had my reasons for being so cold at the time. By that I mean, I had suspicions she was cheating on me.

    I told her we could still be friends but I said this with a tone of insincerity. I really didn’t want to see this bitch ever again but I wanted to see how she would react.

    “We can’t ever be friends when we use to be lovers….”

    Can anyone guess what girls mean by that?

    I’ve heard of other girls saying this too in person by saying, “I’ll never be friends with an ex.”

    It would be interesting to see your take on this Rollo, seeing as how it’s almost the inverse of the “friend trying to be a lover” dynamic.

  • Steve H

    ‘“We can’t ever be friends when we use to be lovers….”

    Can anyone guess what girls mean by that?’

    I take it to mean

    ‘you aren’t useful to me if I am placed in a demoted role. If I can’t benefit from the status boost of having a boyfriend – you – then I’m not going to entertain your cut-rate offer of fractional value. And I definitely can’t handle being your ‘friend’ if/when we’re out somewhere and you start macking on another chick. And I don’t want to lose face by being your fuck-buddy orbiter, at least not after having had my cake and having eaten it too up until this point.’

  • Tam the bam

    this post and every comment in it; pure gold. Specially M3′s. Kinda glad I was too knackered from driving to go out tonight.

  • jf12

    Attention surplus disorder. Hmm. Is every bit of surplus attention that a man gives a woman intrinsically disordered?

    It makes sense to give a nice bouquet and lovey card to your wife as thanks/exchange for a fine night between the sheets. It may be surplus to give a nice bouquet and lovey card “just because” without getting the sheet action.

  • Angry Gamer

    @jf12

    NOW THERE IS AN IDEA!

    Romantic/Chump mantra is to provide gifts etc at “surprising” times to give the illusion of altruism.

    BUT JUST MAYBE the best play for married men is Cooperation or Selfishness… or EVEN alternating Cooperation and Selfishness.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_game_theory#Strategic_alternatives_in_social_behaviour

    Perhaps at RANDOM times.
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/11/07/intermittent-love/

    Betas do Altruism hoping for Cooperation
    Alphas do Selfishness and reward with Cooperation

    It’s all about who get’s their nuts rewarded.

  • Angry Gamer

    @FWB

    ‘“We can’t ever be friends when we use to be lovers….”

    Can anyone guess what girls mean by that?’

    Actually ignore what she says. WATCH what she does. Most likely if you txt a booty call you would be rewarded.

    I know it’s hard for most to realize the fundamental fact of Female False Statements. But it’s true. What she is probably ‘really saying’ filtered with a large dose of estrogen is: “I am too weak to say no to continued sex with you. So please don’t try to be friendly with me.”

    Sex for a man is very nuanced and his desire for it with a female can change. Sex for women sex is more binary. If she has sex with you. You have “broken through” and most women are loath to admit sex is meaningless. Therefore just as the hamster works AGAINST you pre-coitus the hamster works FOR you post-coitus.

    There exists an ethical issue here and for the record I recommend honoring an ex-lovers request.

  • BlackPoisonSoul

    We can’t ever be friends when we use to be lovers…

    It means that her poor little hamster cannot handle having been tossed on the trash heap of your disregard. Ironic, isn’t it.

  • UrbanMeyer

    This topic is definitely my favorite since we all have had experience with the friend zone. My problem was after I had broken up with a gf and then tried to get back together. It makes me cringe to think of all the time wasted that I could have been pursuing other options. I even took a girl to a concert thinking somehow we would hook up after. The next day she was confirmed in a relationship on FB with another guy. Life is too short to fight a losing battle with females.

    Off topic I would like to congratulate pro golfer Rory Mcilroy for breaking off his engagement to tennis player Carolyn Wozniacki. Mcilroy is only 25 and should not be tied down while travelling the world making millions.

  • DeNihilist

    Well, I think the hippies had one thing right, which should be emblazoned on all young men minds, “Ass, Grass or Gas. Nobody rides for FREE!”

  • Tgrln

    “Guys, just understand how easy you make it for us to be bitches. You’re not being mean when you don’t take no for an answer, but you are being a bit stupid.”

    From jf12′s link to that girlie’s post… “just get it”! :)))))

  • Fred Flange, Itself

    A word of encouragement for Softek: you’ll get there. T’ain’t easy shaking off the LJBF guilt and thinking its your duty to rescue the whole damn world, let alone your boss or your work colleagues. None of whom really give a shit about your well-being either so long as you are no more than A Really Useful Engine to them. Figuring that out is when the coke-bottle scales fall from your eyes.

    I got there – and it took me years to get there too. With none of these forums available to me to let me know I was on the right track, BTW.

    Now of course I cosign with rejecting the LJBF, but devious cunt that I am, I would add: You don’t HAVE to say it out loud to your failed prospect. Say it to yourself, shout it in the mirror, But to her you can make noises like “sure we can be friends see you around.”

    Then not do it. Vanish. Probably suits her anyway. Don’t feel bad: you’re no less dishonest than anyone else is. I have heard this kind of thing called the “Chinese Yes”, based on the meme that it is extremely rude in Chinese to actually say “no” outright, so it is most courteous to say “yes” with a thousand different spins that really mean “no.” (Those more familiar with Chinese culture can confirm for me).

    If you’re a young single guy there is one exception to this “reject the LJBF” rule, especially if you’re trying to expand your opportunities: stay “friends” but insist you be invited along so you can hit on her friends/classmates. Perfectly OK, right? You’re respecting her boundaries! How can she object to that? I know Private Man or Badger or someone like them have descanted on this as well.

  • Jeremy

    Realistically, you should never even be in a position to be told “LJBF”. She should know exactly what you want from her long before she considers you an easy mark for cheap validation.

  • Buno

    @theoak re: “I had plans to meet up with some friends/girl at a club, so it was time for her to leave. It was raining so I said I would drop her off at her car. When I stopped, she climbed over on to my side and and started making out with me. After a little bit of that she asked me to bring her back to my apartment. I said ‘that’s not a good idea, let’s just stay friends like you wanted’.

    Most mindblown face I’ve ever seen.

    Frame is crucial.”

    Reminded me of the end scene from “Big Trouble In Little China”:

  • Softek

    @ Fred Flange

    Thanks.

    She never told me LJBF, because I never outed myself to her. I’ve outed myself to a lot of girls in the past and it always ended horribly. So since all those times and then finding the manosphere, I’ve learned to hold my cards much closer to my chest.

    But there’s no way she couldn’t pick up on the fact that I’ve been interested in her for so long. All these years I’ve just been there (on and off) for her emotional support, while she never respected me or took me sexually seriously. It was never anything completely obvious until she started talking about a guy she was seeing and expected me to support her through the problems she was having with him –

    – and I did, the chump I was, because I thought in helping her work things out with him and showing how much I cared about her she’d see how great I was and maybe consider being in a relationship with me instead.

    It was all my fault that I even let that ‘friendship’ get to that point. Really, right from the start, I was sexually attracted to her, but I had no sense of identity with my own sexuality, so I just made friends with her and hoped that magically something would happen and she’d have sex with me one day.

    I didn’t know any better. I can’t even be angry with my old self because I was so clueless. I literally had no idea what I was doing — I just didn’t know any better, and I had no way of knowing any better. It took dozens of rejections and spending years in complete sexual and emotional isolation and almost committing suicide a number of times for me to *START* waking up to the fact that I was not respecting my own wants and needs in ALL areas of my life.

    And I’m still recovering. The fact that it still feels so hard to just “Vanish” is a major sign to me that I have a lot of work to do on myself — and that I should vanish so I can do that work.

    I’ve been so depressed about all this lately, my sex drive has plummeted to the point of being almost nonexistent. I was only venting it by jerking off anyway. I’m taking this as a vacation — I hardly have even been getting any erections at all lately because I’m so tired of dealing with all this stuff, I don’t even want to think about sex and women, so I’m using it to my advantage.

    I think I just need to be completely alone for a while, go on a lot of solitary walks and hikes, and start facing my demons and making peace with them one by one. A personal sabbatical. And also to prove to myself that I’m capable of handling my own emotions and my own problems and that I’m independent.

    Thanks again for the advice. “Chinese Yes” — I’m going to remember that!

  • TheMonkeyKing

    The only women I am friendly with are those that I have little or no sexual attraction to.

    One chica at work has stayed in my bed, but declined my advances (that’s unlike a woman I hear you cry!), but it wasn’t LJBF; more face-saving at work. Her parting words as she left mine were ‘This never happened, right’. So it remains secret to this day (because as a man, I AM able to keep my mouth shut, upon request). But also I took her number and never use it. Instead, I give her the middle finger every time I see her in the office; she reacts to it EVERY, single time.

    I am not friends with any of my exes, despite pleas from nearly all of them to the contrary. It causes confusion/expectation for one or both parties.

    I pretty much agree with the material herein. Guys put themselves in the friend-zone, not women. And to be frank, 9 times out of 10, it’s a pretty dull place to be.

  • jf12

    @Angry Gamer, thanks! In this one instance, at least, I put my money where my mouth is. By more or less shutting off the firehose of romance as extended foreplay, and primarily only doling out romantic stuff as a kind of extended afterplay as a reward for sex, then lo and behold I now get about twice a much sex as I was getting, all the way up from a couple times per month to four or so times per month. In other words, contray to all women’s advice, romance does not work as foreplay since it satisfies her urges for that without giving her incentive for her to satisfy your urges.

    But there’s obviously a limit to this reward-based behavior modification, based on how much romance she actually wants I guess. Now, maybe if I held her Little Debbies hostage …

  • jf12

    Re: “I am not friends with any of my exes.” I have only the one ex-sex partner, my ex-wife, but I can’t imagine being friends with any such ex. “I don’t like you in the way I used to” means “I don’t like you.”

    Is it because women have so very little of other interest to offer?

  • TheMonkeyKing

    @ jf12 ‘Is it because women have so very little of other interest to offer?’

    I think that may be somewhat unfair…. probably more like, ‘They have so very little of other interest to offer unplugged alpha males’.

    It occurs that the feminine imperative encourages the blue-pill man to engage with such feminine pursuits and interests as ‘shopping’, ‘soft-furnishings’, ‘fashion’, ‘retro-chic’, ‘styling’, ‘interior design’ and ‘material wealth’. Personally, I am resolved to never get involved in such things, however, I see that, at the moment, the vast majority of the male population is. Until a few years ago, I would pride myself on being one of these ‘metro’sexuals, being ‘in touch with my feminine side’. Nowadays, I I can’t believe how stupid I’ve been.

    I have a good mind to join a private members club actually. Though they are expensive and usually full of toffs. The local pub suits me, and playing sports.

    Currently, probably for the first time in my life, I don’t even have much interest in spinning plates. I am actually finally becoming my own number one priority. It’s a great feeling.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I think there is a very real want on the part of men for women to be rational, influenced by reason and overt in their communication. They want appeals to reason to work for women as they’d expect them to work for men – here are a list of steps in which you take to receive her intimacy, follow steps, achievement unlocked.

    Women (and particularly those given to an absolute equalist ideology) will insist that this is the way they communicate and reasonably solve problems, but their behaviors put the lie to this assertion. Men would probably like nothing more than the pragmatic ‘no thank you’ women will insist they are implying when they reject a man’s advances. It would save a man’s time, expense and effort if a woman would give him an unequivocal (but tactful and polite) rejection – even a nuclear rejection would send the message – but this functional pragmatism is not how women operate.

    Thus we can only surmise that women, placate men’s pursuit of them for their own reasons. Unless a man is so repulsive or threatening to her that she must be overt in her communication, there must be something she is rewarded with by not being pragmatic and maintaining an indirect, though duplicitous interest in that man’s pursuit of her intimacy whom she has no intimate interest in.

    I think there’s a Just Get It element to this. Women want a man to ‘just get it’, just get it that he’s a Beta for pursuing her – a woman who has no real interest in her despite her indirect and irrationality about her goal-state intimacy. What the pursuing man isn’t connecting with is that his pursuit is a negotiation for her desire (i.e. “I’ll meet all your terms and you’ll be intimate with me.”).

    For all of women’s pop-psychology blathering about communication being the key to a good relationship, women’s actions continually prove that they don’t want to be communicated with in terms of absolute, above board, reason. If you’re attempting to appeal to reason, you kill the vibe, and you prove that you Just Don’t Get how women work. Women don’t want explication, they want demonstration.

  • Steve H

    “What the pursuing man isn’t connecting with is that his pursuit is a negotiation for her desire (i.e. “I’ll meet all your terms and you’ll be intimate with me.”).”

    But that beta male orbiter line of thought gels perfectly with what he hears those same women saying – regarding the Alpha male she was able to attract sufficiently to have a relationship with him.

    These women will retroactively declare that the particular alpha male boyfriend/husband somehow ‘magically’ met all of the criteria on her ‘list’ – her explicitly delineated terms, in other words.

    The beta male orbiter hears this loud and clear – and *especially* since it’s a seemingly perfectly reasonable conclusion drawn from an *already codified result* – a more ‘certain’ iteration of logical syllogism – it thus gives them even greater certainty of their presumed imperative to meet all of her terms.

  • Tilikum

    R,
    “For all of women’s pop-psychology blathering about communication being the key to a good relationship, women’s actions continually prove that they don’t want to be communicated with in terms of absolute, above board, reason. If you’re attempting to appeal to reason, you kill the vibe, and you prove that you Just Don’t Get how women work. Women don’t want explication, they want demonstration. ”

    so…so…so… important to understand this is where the successful Lothario model is born. By having a similar emotional profile as a girl (or faking it), including the desire for secrecy, being non-judgmental, and understanding how a girl ticks, you demonstrate greater emotional depth on HER level. If you are high T, all the better. She gets a man AND gets to be the little slattern she wants to be. Stay non-reactive, and hit on girls in front of her (I always tell em “it’s not gonna get better, lol”) and you stay relevant for as long as you want.

    I’ve spiked a ton of relationships with hotties (20-25yo ASU girls usually) on purpose while experimenting, and to a one its always been when i either explain their behavior or attempt reason. My gut says its always based on them being ashamed that you understand to much AND are willing to verbalize it in a way they can’t. As militaristic thinkers, guys need to SHUT UP. Let the “different” thing about you vs. other guys be never spoken.

    The bigger issue for a Sage of the Slattern Sorority is once you master this shit and can create, destroy, and recreate it at will, not falling into the delicious cruelty of absolutely destroying a female that you meet out somewhere by accurately and viscerally telling her everything that is in her head, and her next steps.

    Girls having grown up keeping secrets from 95% of men, and understanding that 4.5% understand but say nothing, have zero experience with the remaining .5% (like yours truly) who just say whatever. Shields up and she beats a hasty retreat. Very handy when you are trying to sleep w one of her friends tho. Bitches are cruel as shit to each other, especially in the summer when the juices are flowin’.

  • Softek

    I was going to say something. But for a little intermission, I’ll say this much is for sure: since becoming Game-aware, this song’s made a lot more sense to me.

  • ternarydaemon

    “The friend zone is a Beta man’s punishment for expecting to be entitled to the rewards reserved for an Alpha.”

    So true, so painful to swallow.

  • Steve H

    I think a point that could be emphasized more is this:

    If you’ve fucked up with any particular woman such that you arrive in LJBF-ville, but you are game aware and know where and how things went awry, simply turning away from her for a bit and putting in about a month’s work of creating actual abundance via new women – that should do the trick. You won’t be trapped in ‘purgatory’ for long. Preselection via abundance-acquisition will make a girl question her conclusion (that you’re beta) virtually immediately on-site, when you’ve got another hot chick flirting with you. There’s no need for despair.

  • jf12

    So, is the real reason that women are so much friendlier to alphas after the alphas dump them, than women are to betas after the women dump them, because the women DO think that the friendzone is a good strategy for a *woman* to take, in hopes of getting back together?

    Of course the women will say the complete opposite, so this is probably the real reason.

  • Steve H

    Not only is it a good strategy for women to take with Alphas, it is also a good strategy for women to take with higher Betas, who still have some plausible chance of seeing the light and becoming Alpha, at which point those women would actually be attracted to the Beta-turned-Alpha.

    That’s a very different way of looking at womens’ LJBF strategy, for sure.

  • Mansa Sundiata

    I normally don’t participate on internet discussions however after reading this article I felt compelled to respond. Thank you Rollo for creating this site. I stumbled on it looking for a way to get over a girl at my workplace that i thought liked me but was just being indecisive. I now realize that she was using the techniques of the coquette to get me more and more infatuated with her so i would give her favorable treatment. Discovering this site inspired me to actually research game, ( I thought it was for loser guys) read The Art of Seduction, and add an additional layer of self improvement on top of what is mandatory for my work. Keep doing what you’re doing and know that because of you guys around the world are being freed from the matrix as we speak.

  • Mansa Sundiata

    I actually read that article already. It’s what made me understand what was going with her and it inspired me to pick up the art of seduction. As a gift back I recently read an article where by mutating a single gene in male mice they eliminated the mice’s aggression (and also made them bisexual)

    http://njc.rockefeller.edu/PDF_BN08/Stowers02.pdf

    I doubt it would work on humans but if it did they could manufacture the betas they needed instead of having to condition us to be beta. Pretty scary if you think about it.

  • Seraph

    “I would imagine most or all AFCs will have ‘red flags’ in all areas of their lives. Not living up to their potential, or even anywhere remotely near it, in their careers, having friends that don’t support them or care about them, in addition to having poor or nonexistent sex lives and/or terrible and stressful relationships that they feel they have no control over.”

    Spot on.

    I have been doing a HELL of a lot of introspection over the last 18 months, deconstructing my Beta-tude programming over the decades.

    I just, JUST recently realized how my past behavior in so many areas of my life intertwine, as they likely do with others. So, YES, there are likely Red Flags all over the place, like being non-assertive with friends, with co-workers, with boss, with family, and finally, women.

    Basically, not standing up for yourself; not being assertive (not ‘aggressive’, or ‘dick’, just asking for what you want, demanding what you’re worth); not thinking of yourself (and your time and your effort) as worthy, leads you to underperform and underachieve in many if not all areas of your life. It’s all connected.

    Take two guys.

    One is in a dead-end, non-fulfilling job.

    One is in a LJBZ relationship.

    The guy at the job lets the boss take advantage of him, does not ask for a raise, always agrees to overtime and bad hours when he wants to say no, picks up slack from slacker co-workers, etc.

    The guys in the relationship lets his ‘girl friend’ take advantage him, spending time and money on her, does things he doesn’t want to do to keep her happy, spends less time with friends, etc.

    Both are unhappy, likely profoundly so, but they stay where they are at, miserable. They don’t take steps to confront and try to improve their situation, and they don’t try to move on.

    Why?

    Because, both don’t think they deserve more, that they can do better, and/or afraid of risking what they have for a chance for something more. They may *wish* for something different, but they lack the confidence and the skills to try moving on. They think they can’t do any better, and they certainly don’t want to put any effort into trying because, what’s the use?

    That attitude is a recipe for failure and misery. I know. I am years behind in my chosen career because I failed to act and act decisively in my own self-interest. Once I began doing so, the results came. Even so, I have a ways to go.

    Thing is, men are human beings (shock!) and all human beings are allowed to try and improve their lot. They have a right to pursue happiness, but guys had it drilled their head that they had to curtail their wants and needs because…Patriarchy or something.

    Those wants and needs did not go away, they were just buried, leaving people in what Thoreau called “lives of quiet desperation”.

    So, basically, in regards to a LJBF situation, a guy has the right to say-

    “I need sex. It makes me a happy, fulfilled human being. If you are unable or unwilling to provide it, I must expend my resources elsewhere so I to achieve said happiness. Bye.”

    No acrimony or bitterness, but simple declaration that the guy knows he is deserving of more, and will not accept any less than that.

    Same with a job, friendship, etc.

    One has to get into the mind frame that you are worth more, deserve more, and if anyone refuses to accept that, you are out of there.

  • Angry Gamer

    @Rollo

    what if Beta Orbiting is the indication of mating value a woman can objectively rely on?

    What if having Beta Orbiting tells the woman she is still not AT THE WALL?

  • jf12

    @Angry Gamer, very good point. Beta orbiters are a woman’s equivalent of plates. The number of booty-call plates a man has, or could have if he bothered dialing (heh, dialing is so obsolete), is the best measure of his SMV. The number of beta orbiters a woman has, who would help her move her apartment, or accompany her to a gay wedding, is a great measure of … something. If not quite SMV, it’s still the ability to pull men based on sexual (if unrequited) attraction.

  • Johnycomelately

    I have a sneaking suspicion friend zoning by women is a method of intra sexual competition signaling, displaying she is of higher value than her orbiters.

    The larger and higher value her entourage the higher her perceived value (from other women), a form of sexual status marker sans the trinkets, particularly given that real sexual status can only be given by men.

    I have no expertise in the matter but I would wager fag hags would have very few heterosexual orbiters and befriending homosexuals is a form of obtaining faux orbiters.

    That’s why Kate Bolick gloated about buying wedding suits with her ex (supposedly quite happily), she was displaying that she was of higher value than her ex, particularly given that she rejected him.

    If women can’t get genuine orbiters they will often interject themselves in omega male pursuits ( chess clubs, comic conventions, online gaming, manosphere blogs etc.) to obtain orbiters.

    The reason they loath LJBFs expressing sexual interests is that it implies he is of the same sexual status (which according to her is utterly not the case) and negates her self perceived sexual value and intrasexual competition value.

    Anyways, an asshat observation.

  • TheMonkeyKing

    @Rollo

    ‘For all of women’s pop-psychology blathering about communication being the key to a good relationship, women’s actions continually prove that they don’t want to be communicated with in terms of absolute, above board, reason. If you’re attempting to appeal to reason, you kill the vibe, and you prove that you Just Don’t Get how women work. Women don’t want explication, they want demonstration.’

    Spot on, Squire.

    Some of the most powerful messages can be conveyed by not verbalising AT ALL.

    Verbalising a need and reasoning to anyone, let alone a woman, allows them the knowledge and power to deny or withdraw provision at least apply psychological leverage.

    Provide everything for oneself, apart from that one thing that one thing that only a woman can provide and one can’t really go wrong. Not talking to a woman (in the manner and frequency of her blue-pill beta bumchums) conveys exactly that message,

    The red-pill silverback needs her for one thing and one thing only. He has everything else, and that everything else is what she wants from you, in addition to what you want. A woman always wants for more than a man does; her reproductive investment (or potential investment), and latterly, social investment. She either gets some, or she doesn’t; conversation about any of this, reasoned or otherwise, is really a redundant process.

    As I have learned from the landed gentry of the Manosphere, passion cannot and shall not be negotiated.

  • Softek

    “Provide everything for oneself, apart from that one thing that only a woman can provide”

    Are you talking about strokes, or did you mean premature heart disease? :D

  • TheMonkeyKing

    @Softek ‘Are you talking about strokes, or did you mean premature heart disease?’

    Hahaa. Just like getting socks and cheap toiletries for Christmas; joyless, yet ultimately convenient.

  • jf12

    @Johnnycomelately, re: “The larger and higher value her entourage the higher her perceived value (from other women), …, particularly given that real sexual status can only be given by men.”

    Correct. It’s all about the women. A man with plates has status among … women. A woman with plates has status among … women.

    Moreover, marriage itself is for status of the woman among … women. There is nothing else.

  • Tilikum

    Monkey King…..”The red-pill silverback needs her for one thing and one thing only. He has everything else, and that everything else is what she wants from you, in addition to what you want.”

    indeed.

    as someone here recently said, a woman is a hollow shell, a vessel waiting to be filled with your accomplishments. any reflections of a soul you receive are just that, reflections of emotions you have placed there.

    place good emotions strategically, remove them strategically.

    this is the path of the Sage of the Slattern.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @MonkeyKing, attention is the coin of the realm in girl-world:

    http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/21/your-attention-please/

    Attention attraction capacity denotes social rank within the peer clutch. The more attractive the girl, the more popular she bcomes and the more influence she weilds. This isn’t to say that any particular female cognizantly realizes this. However, when ostracized from the collective, this capacity for attracting attention in a high degree makes her despised. The attention can still be beneficial for affirmation (i.e. realized jealousy), it’s just that the intent that has changed.

    Thus, women use attention not only for their own affirmation, individually and collectively, but also to do combat with each other. Far more damaging than physical fighting is the long term psychological impact of denying this reinforcement, or better still, delegitimizing or disqualifying a girl/woman’s capacity to attract this attention. Combine this with a woman’s natural, and innately higher agency to communicate both verbally and non-verbally (i.e covert communications) and you can see the potential this has in damaging a rival. This might explain a woman’s natural propensity to gossip. When a woman attacks the respectability and character of another (“she’s such a slut”), in essence, she is assualting the woman’s agency for garnering attention by delegitimizing it.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    On a subconscious level a bullpen of male orbiters represent the future insurance of a provisioning surplus. The more Beta orbiters she hold rapt the better her potential reserve for long term security will be when needed. Thus, the more non-sexual orbiters she has the freer she feels to capitalize on the Alpha Fucks aspect of her hypergamy.

    If she knows that there are multiple Beta men patiently waiting her out and ready to meet her emotional, familial and financial security needs in the future (The Epiphany Phase) the more secure she’ll feel in pursuing (and fucking) the Alpha men she hopes will eventually fill that security role (or be ‘fixed’ into doing so).

    With her future provisioning presumedly secured by doting orbiters, she becomes comfortable with the risk-to-reward possibilities associated with Alpha Fucks.

    So conversely, the attentions of orbiting provider males essentially prompt a woman to capitalizing on her SMV with the Alpha assholes they complain of and compete for sex with.

  • Steve H

    Rollo – re: “The more Beta orbiters she hold rapt the better her potential reserve for long term security will be when needed.”

    I agree with this completely, but there’s another point to be made that I relate from past experience – I think women might innately *know* that a needy beta man has the wherewithal to better himself, become more confident, and raise his SMV (whereas for a woman, it’s all a downward spiral regardless of her ‘confidence’ level).

    I recall one specific instance, ’bout 5 years ago, of getting LJBF’d by two cute (but not hot) girls because I was being needy. But I had tons of upside, in spite of my palpable lack of confidence at the time. When I got into a relationship with another girl (who was even needier than I) a few months later, those two cute girls from before starting proactively contacting me, and their message was clear…

    Women have a multitude of uses for LJBF, including all the ones mentioned here but also including, perhaps, the innate knowledge that a man they reject in the present could be the same man who’s out of their league in a matter of years. And thus, wanting to keep that door open with the same man they are sexually not-attracted-to in the present.

  • jf12

    @Rollo, “So conversely, the attentions of orbiting provider males essentially prompt a woman to capitalizing on her SMV with the Alpha assholes they complain of and compete for sex with.”

    Thanks for completing this idea for me. Yes, I can see it is the nonsexual attentions that she gets from betas that enables a woman to psychologically get only the sex from alphas without missing the nonsexual attentions from the alphas.

  • TheMonkeyKing

    @Rollo:

    “Attention attraction capacity denotes social rank within the peer clutch. The more attractive the girl, the more popular she bcomes and the more influence she weilds. This isn’t to say that any particular female cognizantly realizes this. However, when ostracized from the collective, this capacity for attracting attention in a high degree makes her despised. The attention can still be beneficial for affirmation (i.e. realized jealousy), it’s just that the intent that has changed.

    Thus, women use attention not only for their own affirmation, individually and collectively, but also to do combat with each other. Far more damaging than physical fighting is the long term psychological impact of denying this reinforcement, or better still, delegitimizing or disqualifying a girl/woman’s capacity to attract this attention. Combine this with a woman’s natural, and innately higher agency to communicate both verbally and non-verbally (i.e covert communications) and you can see the potential this has in damaging a rival. This might explain a woman’s natural propensity to gossip. When a woman attacks the respectability and character of another (“she’s such a slut”), in essence, she is assualting the woman’s agency for garnering attention by delegitimizing it”

    Quite. Just a vicious cycle of legitimising-delegitimising. She can’t be a sl*t and she can’t be a frigid bag-lady, she must remain somewhere in between. How on Earth did they get themselves in this mess?

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