Wait for it?

Iron Rule of Tomassi #3

Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. It’s sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fuck you will find a way to fuck you. She will fly across the country, crawl under barbwire, climb in through your second story bedroom window, fuck the shit out of you and wait patiently inside your closet if your wife comes home early from work – women who want to fuck will find a way to fuck. The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.

If a girl is that into you she’ll have sex with you regardless of ASD or having her friends in the room videotaping it at a frat party. All women can be sluts, you just have to be the right guy to bring it out in them, and this happens before you go back to her place. If you have to plead your case cuddling and spooning on the bed or getting the occasional peck on the cheek at the end of the night, you need to go back to square one and start fresh.

I’m probably going to ruffle a few PUA feathers here, but I’ve never been a proponent of breaking down LMR (last minute resistance) with a woman. Maybe it’s a result of experiences in my rock star 20’s, but at some point I came to the conclusion that sex with a woman who’s turned on by me is always a far better than one where I had to sell her on the idea of sex with me before the act. Now don’t take this to the binary extreme and assume I mean the only good sex you’ll ever have is a first night lay (FNL) with some tart who can’t keep her legs closed. What I mean is that if you’re still trying to figure out what the magic words are to convince some girl that she ought fuck you after 3 dates – or longer – you’re in desire negotiation hearings counselor. You are wasting your time and limiting your opportunity with better prospective women in waiting out a woman who would defer less than 100% of her real desire to have sex with you. The sex will NEVER be worth the wait. A prostitute would be a better alternative.

Genuine desire cannot be negotiated. Once you get past a certain point in the waiting game, what once had the chance to be an organic, sexual desire becomes mitigated negotiation of a physical act. Just the fact that you’re having to make a case for yourself (even covertly) is evidence that there are other factors inhibiting her capacity to be sexual with you. As I stated, barring a physical inability, this is almost always because of an unmentioned agenda on her part. It may be due to a concurrent boyfriend, it may be a natural internal caution, it may be that your process is telegraphing ‘beta’ to her, or it may be that she’s filibustering you while waiting to see if another, more preferable guy pans out for her, however, none of these are insurmountable if she has a genuine desire to bang you. Many a cheated on boyfriend knows this is true. In any circumstance, sex with you is not an urgency for her. If  she’s perceiving your value as as high as it should be, she wont hesitate longer than a few dates to become sexual – and she certainly wont tell you she’s making you wait. Hypergamy doesn’t afford a woman much waiting time with a Man she sees as superior stock.

One of the more frustrating situations I often encounter comes from guys who’ve been OVERTLY told that they’re being made to wait for sex until some circumstance or criteria is met for the woman. The standard filibuster (or loss-leader as the case may be) usually comes with the reasoning that she “needs to feel comfortable” before she has sex with a guy. Even more distressing is the guy who was getting laid, only to be told the same thing by an existing girlfriend. If you find yourself in either of these situation there are a couple of things to bear in mind.

First and foremost, sex, by it’s nature is uncomfortable. Sex that is motivated by mutual, genuine desire is a tense affair, fueled by testosterone, anxiety and urgency. When two people get together for a first dance ( a precursor to copulation), it’s rarely if ever an intimate slow dance. It’s salsa, it’s grinding, it’s pumping, it’s heat and it’s sweat. What it’s not is comforting and familiar. It’s not a nice warm bathrobe fresh out of the dryer. Don’t take this the wrong way, but sex is threatening. It needs to be, and you need to be considered a sexualized player in her personal sphere. Overtly agreeing to wait for her to become sexual is anti-seductive. It confirms for her that you aren’t a sexualized player to her; an Alpha wouldn’t wait for sex and she knows this. Worse still, it devalues her SMV as being worth less than of your utmost urgency.

Secondly, always remember why women resort to OVERT communications (the language of men) – so there is no, or less, margin that her message will be misunderstood. If a woman, point blank says, “I’m not having sex with you until X,Y, and Z happens”, what is her MEDIUM telling you? That there is a precondition that’s more important to her than fucking you with genuine, uncontrollable passion. You want her to be so into you that she’s willing to break the rules. The ideal situation is for her genuine passion to be so uncontrollable for you that she’d renounce her religion and throw her convictions to the wind to be with you. That might seem a bit dramatic, but you get the idea. The good news now is that she’s being overt, which means she’s exhausted her reserves to be covert and, assuming you’re not so desperate as to delude yourself, you can NEXT her and move on.

Rapport ≠ Comfort

A lot of “waiters” find all that a tough road to hoe. They want to stick it out and see if things “might develop”, and NEXTing their ‘waiting girl’ seems a lot like throwing the baby out with the bath water after all the time they’ve invested in building what they think is rapport. Usually this is due to the guy not spinning (enough) other plates that would bear more fruit. However, keep this in mind; waiting for sex isn’t building rapport. There’s a lot of confusion about rapport, most of which is due to well meaning PUAs conflating rapport with comfort. It’s a pretty esoteric term, but rapport is a connection; it’s an implied trust between two acting agents who previously had never met or only have limited knowledge of each other. You can have rapport with an animal – that’s the connection, it’s instinctual.

Comfort comes from familiarity and predictability; all decidedly anti-seductive influences. And while comfort has it’s own merits in interpersonal relationships, it is not the basis for genuine, passionate sexual desire. For people (myself included) involved in a marriage or LTR, it’s serves our long-term best interest to convince ourselves that sex is better when your comfortable with your partner, however, the reality of it sings a different tune. Here’s an easy illustration: As reported by both men and women alike, which of these circumstances provokes the most intense, memorable sexual experiences ? When a couple plans and arranges a romantic “date night” to ‘keep it fresh’ and reconnect? Or is it the ‘make-up sex’ after a horrible breakup, or narrowly averted breakup, where long dormant competition anxiety is brought back into being a very real possibility again? If you said the breakup, you’re correct! One scenario is comfortable, the other uncomfortable. One has the element of predictable certainty, the other is chaotic and uncertain, however in both situations there is definitely a working mutually connective rapport operating.


81 responses to “Wait for it?

  • Good Luck Chuck

    This doesn’t come down to “she has to fuck me in three dates or else”, it is about having an awareness of when you are dealing with ASD and when you are dealing with a woman who is less than thrilled with your presence. There is still going to be a little resistance with some women even if they do want sex. You just have to ferret out the intent and proceed accordingly. Although I don’t agree with the idea that you can judge a “quality” woman by how long she waits to put out, I think that most of us would agree that a woman who puts out quickly loses a couple of points if you are considering her for a relationship.

    Ten or fifteen years ago it might have been more acceptable to give women some leeway but today you have to be extra aggressive on the physical end and extra vigilant to avoid getting suckered into sitting on the bench.

    Roosh wrote an excellent post awhile back about how the sex culture is changing to the point where you need to get it in as quickly as possible if you ever want to at all. Last year I made that mistake with a chick I met at my favorite hipster bar (you know which bar I’m talking about). She was interested but lukewarm to the point where I just let it play out over the course of a few weeks. Finally one night I managed to get her back to my place after running into her at the same bar. We were making out on my couch. I had my hands up her dress and after a few minutes I pulled her into the bedroom. I can’t remember the reason why I didn’t push harder (must have been one of those nights….I don’t remember her putting up much resistance…probably too many drinks…) but after just a couple of minutes of me slowing down she was calling a cab to go home.

    The next time I saw her I knew that it was now or never. Tried to get her back to my place again. I thought for a minute that she was DTF but after waiting for her for a few minutes I got impatient and hauled ass. The next night I ran into her again, this time she was with the guy that is now her boyfriend.

    There is no doubt in my mind that had I pressed just a little harder the night she was at my place that I would have not only gotten the lay, and if I had played it cool after that I could have been the one dating her right now. In retrospect she was spinning her plates and it turned out that this other dude did something right and I screwed up.

    Getting laid is easier than it has ever been but with the way things are today you can’t slack off until you’ve gotten it in at least once. At that point she is more invested and the power dynamic changes so you SHOULD slack off a bit.

    Until you have fucked her always assume the sale but never take for granted that the deal is closed.

  • Whitey

    Rollo, the blog is great. Easily taking over as the top blog out there for men.

    What about when you get the, “we’re not having sex tonight” line when your with a chick the first night or on the first couple dates? I usually take it in stride as a shit test and say, “I was about to tell you the same thing.” just not drawing to much attention to it. Is there a better way to handle it.

    Thanks

  • The Lightning Weasel

    “When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority.”

    I am going to add this to my personal manifesto (which doesn’t actually exist yet.)

    I am adding you to my blogroll man. The site is excellent.

  • MacAgent

    “A prostitute would be a better alternative.”

    Amen. Having some distance from my former marriage now, the thing that strikes me most about my married sex life, was how I really was “paying” for sex anyway. She always used it as a negotiation tool and/or reward, and for years I was “paying” emotionally and physically as a result. The funniest part, exactly as you say Rollo, is that it just wasn’t very good sex, ever. /Me shakes head…

    Throughout my life, I was always against “paying” for sex, and would never have considered a prostitute as an alternative a year ago. But with new perspective comes new understanding, and though I’m still not interested in hiring someone for sex (I’d rather earn it), it is clear to me that paying a pro would be cheaper, easier, and a more honest sexual transaction/interaction than I ever had with my ex-wife.

    Rollo, your writing especially has been an indispensable tool in helping me find the words and thoughts for my newly opening awareness. Thank you!

  • Romantico

    A woman that deeply desires you would want to have sex with you with gusto. If she is any bit hesitant then she is not terribly interested in you. It is as simple as that. Keep your options open and ready to walk away if she uses sex as a bargaining tool. Women who are in love with you and desire you will never do that.

  • walawala

    What I’m facing is a kind of “counter-insurgency game” from my current gf.

    She’s launching the “anti-surge” on me.

    After successfully gaming her here’s what I’m facing…a kind of sexual Falujah and am having troubles.

    First, I’ve got options…no issue there. There are at least 3 other very desirable women that I have gamed to the point where I can move that forward anytime.

    But here’s my situation. Endless shit-testing and complaining.

    I can’t keep up.

    The latest is that after I decided to go away for a night without her, she came over.

    When she arrived she was pouting and turned her head when I went in to kiss her.

    The rest of the evening was a matter of hanging out, watching tv on the couch and her not responding to my touch. So I just played it cool and chatted and acted cool.

    Then….she suddenly says “I come over and you don’t even try to have sex with me…are you getting it somewhere else?!??”

    Me: “Yah, that’s it….no wonder I’m exhausted..” agree and amplify.

    But of course it doesn’t stop there…so she pushes…

    I’m stuck on that shit-test, my response is to point out her behaviour and my reaction to it.

    She’s still not buying this, somehow I’m not making a move on her and she’s feeling less than desirable, we’re in a crisis..blah blah blah.

    Insidious, manipulative and all done very naturally putting me on the back foot.

    Any words of wisdom on how to handle would be great, but feel like I’m losing that control here and stuck on what to say.

  • johnnymilfquest

    Say to her: “We need to talk. Its not working out between us…”

    She can only react two ways to that. Positively or negatively.

    If she says sorry and promises to stop being a cunt then hold her to that promise.

    If she reacts negatively, then DTB.

  • ASF

    If you have other desirable options that are not constantly testing you, and one increasing undesirable option, then I am not actually seeing a problem. Tell her to smarten the fuck up or get lost. She is a child, and must be disciplined as such.

  • My Name Is Jim

    I did dump a woman who wanted to make me wait. It wasn’t even so much that I was aware of all the stuff above, well I was in a general way but the thoughts were still inchoate. This was before I’d ever heard of the manosphere. She was throwing off so many IOIs even I couldn’t have missed it and that’s saying something. If she’d asked me for a couple of months I’d probably have beta-ed. But no it’s worse than that, she comes out with, she’s a Catholic now and she wants to wait until she’s ready to get married. No way. I was clueless enough that I basically never got laid when I was college age and I wanted to have my time to make up for that as a young professional type. I was in no mood to throw in the towel and just tell myself that casual sex wasn’t for me, so I friendzoned her. As you can predict, her interest didn’t wane at all. Even after we fell out of touch she was asking mutual friends where was I nowadays.

  • Neecy

    Rollo,

    Are you advocating or suggesting women who chose not to screw men on 1-3 dates or within a shorter time frame where she doesn’t know him very well are women who are not worth waiting for? That a woman that prefers to wait to get to know a guy she has the hots for better before sleeping with him is not a woman worth waiting for?

    Are these women playing games to you or could it possibly be that some women simply don’t believe in IMMEDIATLEY opening their legs for every stranger to Tom, Dick and Harry that gives her the tingles within a 72 hour time frame?

    1-3 dates these days can range from 1-7 days.

    Also, is this advice you would give to your daughter? That she should not wait to sleep with a man until he has proven he has more than an interest in her than sex? How the heck can a woman determine a guys intentions within 1-3 dates? Why should a woman give her most precious thing (her body) to a bunch of random men simply b/c they give her the tingles?

    Women date quite extensively these days. If in fact what you are suggesting is that women shouldn’t make a guy wait for long after being on a few dates, then I guess women would be sleeping with a bunch of men simply to prove she isn’t trying to make him wait? HUH And doesn’t your advice lend to the riding the cock carousel that so many MEN complain about with women in their early years?

    I mean really – what kind of message is this? That women should just sleep around with EVERY GUY that gives her the tingles? Oh and what about all the complaints from men about how they can Rarely find women to marry b/c they don’t want to settle down with women who ride the cock carousel. You are sending mixed messages here.

    One hand you are saying men should not wait for women who hold off on sex, yet if every woman did this, this would mean she was or is riding a cock carousel since there will be plenty of men in her lifetime that give her the tingles and gets the gina juices flowing. Would you Rollo, marry and pro create with a woman who slept with you after 3 dates? Would you not wonder how many other men she slept with after 1-3 dates?

    Frankly, I think its disgusting to make women who chose not to act on every sexual desire to sleep with a man as out to be game players not worth a man’s time. I guess I will be alone the rest of my life if most men feel like this. What a sad world we live in these days. Where women who don’t sleep around are seen as not worth waiting for.

    QUALITY means nothing anymore….

  • deti

    The extreme emphasis on hookup and sex first, relationship later has really changed.

    Twenty years ago when I was fully in the SMP in the midwest, it was just on the cusp of changing. Then, most women could get a BF without being expected to put out. There were a lot of women who would do all but P in V sex; but a growing number getting into hookup. You had to be aggressive with escalation to get anywhere.

    Now: it seems to be all hookup. A lot of men I know have a 3 date rule:

    “Sex by date three, or I’m gonna flee.”

    And there are exceptions. And “sex” might mean everything from heavy petting/makeout to oral sex to full on intercourse; but intercourse needs to happen ASAP. If she’s cutting them off at oral sex without intercourse, a lot of men just blow them out.

  • just visiting

    Agreed Neecy

    Mixed messages.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Really Neecy, your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired:

    Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

    What would be too long to wait? 3 months? 6 months? The operative isn’t the time period, it’s the intent behind the wait. The sex isn’t worth the wait when genuine desire is mitigated by some other influencing factor. It makes little difference if the woman is chaste as a pastors wife or a $10 whore, the sex isn’t worth the wait.

    And just to help your reading comprehension grade for the next essay:

    Now don’t take this to the binary extreme and assume I mean the only good sex you’ll ever have is a first night lay (FNL) with some tart who can’t keep her legs closed.

  • Mike C

    Neecy,

    Reread this part a few times:

    “The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.”

    Here is the straight dope. Any guy with experience and savvy knows that many women run this scam where they have sex or have had sex with the guy who generates the tingle right away, but then make the beta provider “work” for the pussy until she is “ready and comfortable”. And the problem is that many women when working the beta provider guy are really good at faking the “good girl” routine when they are the same girl who got banged in the bathroom in the club. So my question to you is how does a guy differentiate between the real deal that authentically wants to take it slow versus the one who is playing the guy she sees as Dad material but doesn’t really get the tingle fully ramped. This is a classic case of Gresham’s law where bad money drives out good. In the current SMP, a guy essentially has to start with the presumption he is dealing with a promiscuous girl who has in fact given it up really quick for other guys.

  • Mike C

    What EXACTLY is the mixed message here in just this post? I think you are conflating JUST THIS PARTICULAR POST with something you’ve read or perceived elsewhere.

  • Mike C

    Neecy,

    We had a quite lengthy discussion on this over at Susan Walsh’s Hooking Up Smart not too long ago. I can’t provide the link because the site is blocked from this PC, but go to Hooking Up Smart and look for the post “Price Discrimination in Sex”. This issue kind of being alluded to is you have some women trying to sell the same newspaper to one guy for $10 while the other guy gets it for a dime or for free. Odds are if you are getting charged $10, then you’ve got someone trying to play you because otherwise she’d charge you the same dime she charged the other guys. In case the metaphor isn’t clear, I’m not talking prostitution here, but if you follow that discussion you’ll see the point.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Believe it or not Neecy brings up a decent point. That’s why I said it isn’t about the time frames it is about the intentions. The problem these days is that MOST of the time a woman who refuses to put out isn’t doing so out of innocence. If she’s reasonably attractive and over the age of 20 chances are she’s already had a pretty good sample of the cock carousel and if she tries to pull that shit on you it’s a bad sign.

    The more “innocent” girls I have been with who had only had one or two partners before me, I was still banging them with only token resistance even though I probably would have waited a little while for either one of them. Contrast that with a chick who I had ALREADY fucked who later claimed to have “turned a new leaf” who didn’t want to have sex with me anymore. THOSE are the kinds of situations to watch out for.

    One thing to remember though neecy- life isn’t fair. Double standards are a bitch but they exist for a reason. Also, women are in this position because they dug their own grave. They wanted to be like men. They wanted to fuck like men. This devalued your most valuable commodity to the point where you have to give it away for cheap. Complain to the sisterhood.

  • xsplat

    I’ve given advice and examples of stuff I do in response to similar situations, but my approach seems to be at huge odds with your personal philosophy and personality.

    I advocate extreme anger in certain situations.

  • just visiting

    The mixed messages are not within this post but from the manosphere in general. I should have been clear on that.

    I would like to point out that just because a woman doesn’t have sex with you immediately doesn’t mean that she isn’t attracted to you. She could even be overwhelmed by attraction, resulting in a certain withdrawing and shyness.. Or god forbid, an interest in a relationship. Or an aversion to hurt. Take your pick.

  • just visiting

    Similar discussions had manosphere commenters tell women to hold off on sex until monogamy.

  • Mike C

    What is good advice for a relationship minded woman may not be identical to the advice for man looking to be sexually successful. I think it is a safe assumption that Rollo isn’t writing strategy, tactics, and mindset for the woman seeking marriage.

    I wouldn’t tell a woman to either hold off on sex or not hold off on sex based on monogamy or no monogamy. Do what you want, and accept the consequences of your choices.

    In my experience, men vary quite a bit in terms of whether they have a problem or not with the degree of a woman’s past sexual experience so I think some women overstrategize just this aspect. I think what guys universally have contempt for though are women that lie about their experience with a guy they put into the “relationship prospect” box.

  • just visiting

    Agreed. ( It’s a problem both sexes have to figure out. You guys don’t want to commit to a slut, we don’t don’t want to get pumped and dumped by a player.)

  • deadflowers

    Well, this was both enlightening and depressing. I am a female college student who enjoys being single, parties, flirting, etc. etc. but who is seeking out a long-term relationship and eventual marriage. I have had sex with two people, and only two people, in one-night-stand situations (I am not proud of either and never discuss them as a result; I am only happy that I do not have to deal with the stigma of being a virgin). Since these, which happened within the same month first semester freshman year, I have realized several things that I think are relevant to your post:

    1. I do not enjoy one-night stand hook ups, regardless of whether or not they involve sex, and many people agree with me. There is simply not enough incentive to make the experience truly pleasurable for the other person, and I find that I am not comfortable enough with a partner who is more or less a stranger to have the kind of passionate, good sex that I desire, or to guide him about how to make it better for me. I’m also pretty disinterested in making it extra good for him. *MANY GIRLS FEEL THIS WAY. IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO THE GUY, which is what you imply when you say “It’s sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fuck you will find a way to fuck you.”*

    2. Even when I am hooking up with a guy who I genuinely like and VERY MUCH DESIRE TO HAVE SEX WITH, I will always end it before it gets to sex. I say no for several reasons. First, every guy I have spoken with about this–both friends and past hook ups–has said that sex with a condom sucks and many of them even say they would rather jack off than have sex with a condom. They also say that most girls they hook up with give bad blow jobs (which I believe, considering that I am not going to be that into sucking the dick of some guy who I hardly know or care about, regardless of how sexually attracted I am to him). One of them said he has never actually had an orgasm from a hook-up BJ. Anyway, that aside, I’m not going to let some guy I hardly know fuck me without a condom because that is pretty much asking for an STD, especially given the number of guys I could have had sex with at this point. And I don’t want to subject him to shitty condom sex, since it’s just not worth it ACCORDING TO GUYS. I’m not going to venture into BJ territory for the aforementioned reason. Well, that just leaves a sad handjob, and no one likes handjobs.

    3. There have been several guys who I have really, really genuinely liked and been quite attracted to as well. I did not have sex with any of them, as you suggested. And guess what? Your advice would have served me pretty badly. Pretty much EVERY other experience I have had with men in the past year of going to college has convinced me that not putting out immediately, even with a guy I really like, is a much better strategy. I have hooked up (in the loosest sense of the word so basically including making out/fooling around) probably 12 guys. I have casually dated some of them. NONE of them have turned out to be the one-and-only-best-guy-ever-god-I-wish-he-would-date-me type of perfect dude. Some of the ones who seemed like the perfect gentlemen in the beginning have actually turned out to be boring, stupid, lazy, or just total assholes, even though they seemed perfect at the beginning.

    What I’m trying to say is, if I followed your advice, not only would I have a number in the double-digits, but I’d also have countless more regrets and a nasty stretched out snatch, especially if I continued for the next three years of college and beyond.

    But at least all these guys would know that I wasn’t using them and playing mindgames, right? So they probably would think I’m a pretty cool girl.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    That may be a good strategy for you, but for a guy to patiently bide his time in the hopes that 3 months later you’ll become sexual with him; that isn’t a pragmatic use of his time or effort – particularly in the knowledge that women have a proven capacity for instant sexual arousal with the right guy under the right circumstance.

    As I started with, if you’re being made to wait for sex, the impulse is already mitigated by external influences. It’s never worth the wait in comparison to a woman who’s genuinely so passionate about a guy that she’ll break her own rules.

  • xsplat

    People have different sexual strategies. Some men are looking for a more conservative minded woman like you, who does not have a sex drive high enough to compel her to have sex.

    Many men that you might like however have a different sexual strategy, and prefer an unstoppable heat in their women.

    It’s hard for men to empathize with alternate sexual strategies. I find it near impossible not to belittle men who prefer lifetime monogamy with a virgin, and such men find it difficult not to belittle my lack of concern for partner count in a mate.

    It seems your sexual strategy is geared toward long term mating. You’ll probably wind up with a low libido beta-ish guy. If that’s not what you want, you’ll likely need to put out when the future is uncertain.

  • Duplicity «

    [...] I’ve been fielding responses generated from my Wait for it? post, courtesy of Susan Walsh and the Hooking Up Smart audience. What started as some really good [...]

  • Has the Price of Sex Bottomed Out? |

    [...] Rollo Tomassi at Rational Male (#2 hat tip to Mike C) recently went further and admonished men not to wait for [...]

  • donlak

    For Neecy, or other girls inquiring whether you should have sex with a guy within 3 dates. Yes.

    Why would you gamble with a high value man that makes you tingle like crazy? You think he doesn’t have girls that will bang him? Are suggesting from having your own pedestal for your own pussy? Is it so fantastic that he should wait? And if it is, how should he know?

    if you want your shot at the guy you really want, you will give him what he wants. Your body. it’s your behaviour and actions after sex that determines if he wants to keep you.

    in the slut marketplace, no pussy is that high value any more.

  • Jake

    It all starts with whether you’re a guy she’ll CHASE. And that starts with the first words out of your mouth.

    Most guys make the CRITICAL mistake of hitting on girls, starting the whole thing with chasing HER. Totally and utterly, painfully wrong.

    Here, Inception style pickup, she’ll WANT to fuck you:

    http://two.cedonulli.com/2011/10/inception-style-pickup/

  • Solo

    Great Post Rollo

    I got suckered into this earlier this year a couple times sadly you would think I’d know better but lack of plates at the time had me acting simpish. I’ve noticed that women in their 30’s do this “you gonna have to wait crap” the most. It seems like they know their sexual marketability is going down. So they pull this whole “If you wanna hit this you gonna have to take me out, or wait for a relationship” This is annoying, considering the fact that right now I’m not looking for LTR. I admit qualifying on my part hasn’t been the best. So since a couple instance earlier this year I’ve tighten up that aspect of my game

    A couple days ago I had a women in her 30’s who happened to pull the same stunt (surprise surprise) I told her flat out I wasn’t looking for LTR. When she mentioned that she likes relationships to start “nonsexual”. I knew it was a shit test, but I honestly didn’t feel like playing. It was a women who for her age was still decent looking, and I honestly just didn’t care jumping through her hoops.

    My question is

    This is obviously a shit test, but is it worth even waiting if you spinning other plates(or even if you aren’t)? it’s obvious these women want to control the frame, and if you choose to wait you lose anyway cause she is in control.

    However this seems to happen more and more that these women are messing with alphas and now scrambling to find a provider when they realize the sun is setting(I’m not the one bitch)

    The last few times women like that, I’ve tighten up my tie excused myself and just walked out.

  • nugganu

    Solo – are you a Canuck by any chance? That sounds like the typical games Canadian women in their 30’s play. I usually walk away from them, because if you know anything about our women, it’s that they want to always control the frame, and they are not interested in boyfriends/husbands but doormats/slaves.

  • Solo

    Not a Canuck mate, but I do live 5 hours away from the border, typically its older women who play this or younger women who just have been burned from a LTR. While I do enjoy the challenge of the pursuit, Its a turn of when a women tries to use it a trump card to control the frame, not gonna happen with me

  • Emma the Emo

    Does this man have any incentive at all to commit to anyone in this climate? A girl can play by the rules of everyone else and give up her body like everyone else, to high value men. This might easily lead to trying out many high value men and not being chosen, and ending up with a partner count that is a little too much for any future high value man… I don’t know how these men’s minds work, but some of them seem to value a low partner count and look out for signs of being too easy. Maybe some are more comfortable with it and wouldn’t hold it against you if you slept with them on the 3rd date. How many do you think are ok with it? Not a rhetorical question, I’m really curious. And how many of these men would be willing to have a non-open LTR with one woman? Because if these guys lose some respect for you when you put out pn the third date, and very few of them are into commitment anyway, then your advice is not very good.

  • loveiseasy

    Tell her to cut that shit out or get lost. Clearly she has security issues and does not feel secure enough in your relationship. Either address what those are, or tell her point blank that you will not be standing for it. Put your foot down.

  • loveiseasy

    I agree with this. I’ve often found it silly when women have really rigid rules as to when to sleep with a guy, as though attraction is something that needs to be scheduled.

    I’ve met women who refuse to sleep with men until X amount of dates or X amount of gifts, and it’s just way too contrived. A woman ought to have sex with a man she likes if the feeling should strike her instead of suppressing her desire in order to leveraging sex as a bargaining tool.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Just as a late breaking addendum to this post, I thought I’d add an interesting study and Roissy follow up to it:

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/file-under-science-love-at-first-same-night-lay/

    it is just as easy — in fact, may even be easier — to fall in love and begin a healthy long term relationship with a woman after having sex with her on the first date as it is with a woman who has made you wait for weeks or months before having sex.

    If Ms. Walsh has still got her panties in a knot, I’d be interested to read her response to this.

  • Frame «

    [...] frame imbalances instinctually. If you feel like you’re being led on, or being made to wait for sex, you’re operating in her frame. Are you in the ‘friend-zone’ or did you accept an [...]

  • Has the Price of Sex Bottomed Out? | Hooking Up Smart

    [...] Rollo Tomassi at Rational Male (#2 hat tip to Mike C) recently went further and admonished men not to wait for [...]

  • The Beta Hamster «

    [...] publicly confirming his stance on placing relationship (women’s first security priority, i.e. wait for sex) above his ever-present physical need for sex, his subconscious hope is to appear so in control of [...]

  • Taking things Slow «

    [...] “Taking things slow” is covert communication for “I have other irons in the fire, and you’re not the first best option.” [...]

  • Nummm

    LOL @ deadflowers

    i would lol at you so hard if you pulled this garbage on me. 2 one night stands, but for some reason, I’m not good enough to to get my dinky stinky the first time we hang out.

    Good god, I hope a meet a broad like you, just so I can lie to her to get into a relationship, blow inside her a few times, then tell her she’s trash.

    LOL @ how delusional you are. Relationship material my ass.

  • Late Term Virgins «

    [...] could simply take the easy way out of this and defer to my now infamous Wait for It? post, but I don’t think it would sufficiently address the phenomena of women abstaining from [...]

  • Wald

    What is your take on virgins Rollo Tomassi?

    Does this rule apply to them as well?

    Or long distance?

  • NEXT «

    [...] think one of the biggest mistakes guys against a 3 Strikes rule make is assuming that it means a guy would be so preoccupied with sex that you couldn’t [...]

  • Three Strikes «

    [...] had a lot of shit slung at me when I offered up Wait For It? As I stated above, I had the predictable feminine doubt doctrine lobbed at me in response from the [...]

  • Tom Leykis Returns To The Radio Today | The Badger Hut

    [...] Leykis promoted a series of dating rules for young men known as “Leykis 101,” including such tips as don’t date single mothers, never spend more than $40 on a date (zero is optimal), always wear a condom, and stop dating her if she won’t sleep with you by date #3. [...]

  • The Surrogate Boyfriend «

    [...] 8 months. For all the shit slinging about Three Strikes or the sex never being worth the wait for a Wait for It girl, it amazes me how readily and willing a majority of Beta men will be to entertain a sexless, [...]

  • captainbenwillard

    Have to say I agree. In fact I would go further – in my experience, I’ve hardly ever had sex with a girl if it I didn’t get it by date three, no matter how patient I subsquently was. And the one occasion I remember when it did take about 5-6 dates she was, despite being super-hot, a complete disappointment (lights out, under the covers, missionary position only). Women are either attracted to you right away or else they never are.

  • Relationship Game – Wife Sex «

    [...] I’ve stated in many previous posts, properly motivated, women will move across the country, crawl under barbed wire and out a 2 story [...]

  • Coquetry «

    [...] reasoning I’ve come to expect from the Hooking Up Beta crowd when discussing the merits of Waiting for It. Side note: please do read the short bio of Giulia Simolo for an enlightening brief on what makes [...]

  • Filibuster «

    [...] partially covered this dynamic in the now infamous Wait For It? post: If  she’s perceiving your value as as high as it should be, she wont hesitate longer than [...]

  • angeleyes

    Boys you all sound like gorgeous men. Aside from all the ponderings, I think women love bastards cos you’re sexy and men love girls who just chill about the lot and do it if it feels right. Its not rocket science, we aren’t here for a long time – but a good time. Help me out with my predicament. My guy is movie star stunning and makes me tingle like a star. His previous life as a class A Player has menat that it is he who is holding out! Im quivering at the thought…but perturbed as I don’t think its normal behaviour for a player to renege his positiprevious behaviour of nailing anything that moved…preferring to wait until we get to know each other better his sense of humour, naked agression, huge frame and movie star face has left me in now dout that we will set the bed on fire….but is it batsh+t… and has he jus got another girlfirend, an std or he doesn’t fancy me….we are good friends already and have slept in the same bed….thanks dudes x

  • S

    I’m not a guy but the whole attitude of loving bastards is going to set you up for a lifetime of heartache.

  • ivanhoseph77

    Hmmmm….There seems to be a false dichotomy here. The assumption I’m getting is that if sex isn’t had within 1-3 dates that there isn’t an underlying animal lustful attraction. The woman must have ulterior motives in pursuing the relationship. I disagree. Me and my girlfriend at university waited around 3-4 months before P in V sex and believe me, there was magnetic animal attraction. We enjoyed a long healthy very sexually active and fulfilling relationship for 2 years after that. There is something powerful about showing that you can both be fully human and reign in that animal lust for a time while feeling the slow burn and overwhelming desire. I found it really increased attraction taking it to the brink and then pulling back. I found it brought a lot of depth. That was my experience. It’s not necessarily an either/or scenario.

    To Emma the Emo – I hope that helps with your frustration. There is definitely more than 2 ways to look at this. It doesn’t have to be either/or.

    Btw- love the blog Rollo.

  • Bill

    Hey roll, you have pretty decent blog, but you guys are dead wrong about pushing past last minute resistance, especially if the chick has been drinking… That’s rape, and it will fuck with a woman to no end for years to come (most of them are crazy/emotional enough minus being raped). If you have to get a woman drunk for her to have sex with you, you’re doing something wrong.. If the woman isn’t pursuing YOU for sex, you’re doing something wrong. If she’s not, Man up and move on.

  • Year One «

    [...] On August 19th, 2011, I had no idea who a good 80% of the bloggers you see in my blog roll were, and that’s not mentioning the ones I read, or locked horns with, regularly who aren’t in that last. I had no idea who Dalrock was, or Krauser who I’d unknowingly inspired to so much insight. I knew Roissy before he adopted Heartiste and of course I was familiar with Roosh before I began blogging. I was welcomed by them as well as Ferdinand from the gone but not forgotten In Mala Fide. Before October of last year, I had no idea who Aunt Giggles was until she fired a shot across the bow at me in Wait For It? [...]

  • pulsotic

    Hey bill,
    Take off your “this is what a feminist looks like” shirt.
    As most men know, LMR is often just for show. “guys” like you wouldn’t know that though. I’ve had straight up booty calls give LMR. Are you telling me that’s rape? Btw, many women use alcohol as an excuse to get laid because women like to think it wasn’t their idea or things just happened. The only way it’s gonna fuck with them is when they settle for a beta and they’re forever nostalgic about the alpha they couldn’t snare. It’s my face they picture when you’re banging her.

  • Bill

    Yes, I’m telling you that’s rape. It’s the face of a rapist that they picture. You’re a rapist. Make sure to keep your rapist shirt on so women don’t have to figure out the hard way.

  • Your Friend Menstruation «

    [...] caught a lot of grief in the past from angry women for suggesting that all women have an ‘inner slut’ and that all a guy need do is be the right man at the right time to bring this out in them. I think [...]

  • Emma the Emo

    I commented on this already, but got more thoughts. If she doesn’t have sex with you soon, it might mean she isn’t that into you. But it can also mean she wants you badly, but also for commitment. All those guys she fucked on the first date were just a way to have fun and not for commitment. But often, guys are insulted when a girl wants them to buy what she gave to others for free. It’s weird how logical this is from a woman’s point of view, and how, at the same time, it’s logical for a man to avoid that.

  • mnf

    I like the article and I agree with many of its points.. but can you please proof-read it next time? There are so many grammatical errors.

  • Karl

    >> Women date quite extensively these days

    Well Neecy, maybe that is part of your problem. And it is the woman’s problem. Because I don’t see a bunch a 39 year old men writing blogposts about “where did all the good men go?”. I see those men in Asia and East Europe.

  • fakeemail

    If she doesn’t have sex after 3 dates then she’s not into me. But if she does, then doesn’t that qualify her as “slutty” and not marriage material?

    How would I know if she wanted to take it slow, but really was inot me? Does such a thing exist any more?

  • sun

    hi.
    you used the word TART and for that I probably love you.

  • Nimea

    Some women don’t want to have sex with you “right now” because they don’t want to be seen as worthless sluts who are no relationship material, even (especially) if they like you.
    There are many men who dont want a woman that is “easy to have” or “used up” for a relationship or marriage.

  • kcmaleescort

    Having recently discovered, and recently read the book version of “The Rational Male,” and now going through the archives to read it all, I am doubtless commenting on things that have been said elsewhere that I haven’t read.

    But I think most of the responses take this blog’s points much too extreme. My wife and I, before getting married, were both virgins, both committed to waiting until marriage, so the question of waiting for it wasn’t in the mix in the most literal means.

    The real crux of this blog is the question of desire, and whether it is there or not. And even in my “wait until marriage” community, it was the operating. I didn’t kiss until I’d proposed, and while I know we would never have gone all the way before marriage, it was she, not I, that led us from that kissing to necking, and going farther than I intended beforehand. I now see that the desire side was operative on her end.

    So translate Rollo’s comments into your own cultural millieu.

  • qwerty

    Interesting read. I think that it is important to judge the female that wants to wait a bit by her overall receptivity, body language, etc.

    I’ve had the following happen a few times. The woman appears very into me and is more than happy to kiss passionately on the first date. By the second date we are all over each other but she seems a bit hesitant to get fully nude, etc. However, she is being very passionate, grinding her crotch against me, sweaty and red in the face, breathing deeply….she wants it but just wants to wait a bit more. By the 3rd to 5th date, we are typically naked and she may not be ready to do everything, but we end up getting each other off. She continues on like this, and I know she is dying for sex, she finally gives in on like week 2 of us knowing each other.

    This is how nearly all women that actually were not sluts acted when I was 18 to 25 years old. That was around a decade ago and women have changed. Plus, now I date older women (in their 30s like me) and they tend to put out much quicker. What I have described is pretty natural for a relatively sexually inexperienced woman. I didn’t mind it, in fact waiting and having us both yearning for each other for a few sessions made it extra hot in some ways.

  • Vincent Vinturi

    Agreed wholeheartedly.

    A woman who “makes you wait” is sublimating her desire to fuck you (if she actually wants to fuck you in the first place, that is) to tease resources out of you in the form of dinners, dates, entertainment, validation, etc.

    A woman who feels that chemistry and wants to connect will still care about the resources but they’ll be secondary.

    Also, in my experience, waiting a long while for sex doesn’t make it any better. You’d think it would because you’re emotionally investing in the prospect of finally getting it on. But it actually has the opposite effect. It creates an unrealistic expectation that it’s going to be mind-blowing AND it gives you time to cool off.

    Sexual chemistry has a short shelf life that isn’t extended by interminable, awkward dinners!

  • Luisa

    That’s not necessarily truth outside the US, me and some of my friends are not one night stand girls.

  • Tim Shepard

    Why would you “Hoe a Road”? It’s “Tough Row to Hoe” as in hoeing a row to plant vegetables. C’mon stop mixing your metaphors.

  • Glenn

    This is wisdom that I even see guys with “Game” screw up. I learned this fundamental rule as a sales rep to corporations. I look for the client engaging in what I call “buying behaviors” and my whole approach initially is to stimulate buying behaviors, not “selling”. With women, any PUA technique or a zillion other resources will tell you about the body language and behavior involved. If you are meeting up with the women for the first time after meeting her in another setting where fucking was impossible, simply look at the logistics of what she agreed to. When? Does she have anything to do afterwards? How did she dress? Was she on time? Does she seem nervous? Did she let you pick her up at her place (she might as well throw her dress up over head if she does this)? I’m actually not PUA nor have I taken any courses, I just watch how people behave very carefully. That doesn’t mean I get women falling at my feet, far from it, but my “game” is to focus on those who do or who act like it is likely.

    That doesn’t mean the deal is closed, you have to close to get to yes. But some guys don’t realize that if they are prone to fucking you, they will not until you close. As well, if they will go home with you, they may just as well fuck you in the men’s room of the bar you are in. I’ve counseled so many Betas in the friend zone who are never going to get laid about this. I even tried with a Beta “friend” of a girl I was fucking. He was her roommate and was locked into non-stop provisioning while i cruised in and out, fucking her and I felt bad for the guy. He thought somehow that he was concealing his agenda from me and that I would be jealous, and that she was going to “see through me” eventually and that his good guy shit was going to pay off.

    I even told him that the woman and I would laugh about him to try and at least get him angry so some testosterone would flow, but this didn’t motivate him. Never a more perfect example of how Betas do it to themselves. Fyi, I’m older now, 50, and this woman was 28. My SMP is greatly reduced and some high status women try to use my interest in them to get me to Beta provision – and I just refuse. It’s a small pct of women who are attractive to me who are also DTF me – so what? I’m a realist and don’t let that make me see what isn’t there. A women who wants to fuck will let you know, and if they don’t, NEXT.

  • The Gift |

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  • There Is Little Difference Between Women Throughout History

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  • Tarnished

    “The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.”

    I don’t want to turn this into a NAWALT argument. I’ve known people of both sexes who are demisexual, in that they need to have some sort of loving relationship with a potential partner before feeling ready to have any sort of physical intimacy. I was in a “just friends” relationship with my FwB for a little over a year before he made a gentle move, and one of my commenters (Al C.) has stated that he’s never been into casual sex…he wants rapport before he could ever open himself up to a woman. Now, without going into too much detail, I do know both Al and I lived through childhood sexual abuse (mine from age 10-17, his I believe was a very traumatic one-time thing).

    I’m sure you get lots of post requests, but perhaps you could do one about women (and include the fact that men experience sexual abuse too) who are *not* giving shit tests or playing idiotic games by asking to get to know you before having sex? I didn’t have consensual piv sex till I was 22…from the time I left my parents house at 17 till my friend slowly started helping me relearn that sex could be good at 21, I’d mentally convinced myself I had no libido. Of course, I did, but I squashed it so I could protect myself from the college guys who were constantly asking me out.

    I don’t know if you’ve already touched on this topic, but there are a minority of women who crave comfort with their partner and give sex like a slut…but only to the one they’re comfortable with. I’m 30 next month, and my only consensual partner all these years is still my 45 yr old FwB. We’ve done so many types of sex, and we both initiate every week, I’ve never turned him down…but that’s because I am comfortable with him as a lover.

  • Purgatory |

    […] Rollo’s said if a woman’s interested in you, she won’t confuse you. […]

  • monicamtorres

    Referring to women that want and choose to have sex with you as sluts is sexist and degrading. This is misogynist BS!

  • Tom

    LOL- Way old post to be pinging now, but just had to pop in a comment about: The Rules!

    That goofy book from 1995 that put “making yourself unavailable” and “not having sex until after 3 dates” front and center.

    Back in the day there was a truism among the then-fledgling Seductionist community that when you met a Rules Girl you spent 3 dates (strategicly chosen to minimize resource usage) building attraction and lust- then had her over for a “Closing Date” at your place to “watch a movie” or “make dinner.”

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