The Gift

logic

After reposting my seminal essay on Vagintine’s day last week an interesting topic arose. One of my assertions in the V-Day post was that a man ought never to buy his wife or girlfriend lingerie as a gift for Valentine’sDay, and, by extension, any other occasion, special or otherwise. As I considered the input from both Sunshinemary as well as commenter ‘Lingerie’ (odd for a male commenter, OK) I began to come to a better understanding of why I’ve always promoted this principle.

This is Lingerie’s take:

This is nuts:

“Note: Never buy a woman lingerie, she will never be happy with it. A woman has to do this on her own to “feel sexy”, make sure it fits her right, and it’s HER IDEA. When you buy it for her it’s contrived and it is overt and overt is often the kiss of death for a try-hard guy.”

Women in my home wear what they are commanded to wear. It’s not a decision left to them. In the beginning of a relationship I have to train them on proper apparel, which means taking them to the store and having them model garments for me so that I can show them what works and what doesn’t work, and why. After that, they know what clothing for themselves to buy for me so that I don’t have to go shopping with them.

This was Sunshinemary’s (albeit christianized) take:

LOL. Of course you should buy your wife lingerie. So what if she thinks it’s “really a gift for you”? Isn’t her body supposed to be a gift for you per 1 Corinthians 7:3-5? She should be happy you still want to see her in it.

In the interests of full disclosure, in the past, I have bought lingerie for both past girlfriends and Mrs. Tomassi; and I have learned my lesson. This is a lesson in genuine desire versus mitigated, obligated desire. If a woman doesn’t take the prerequisite effort on her own part to want to make herself more desirable and more sexy for you as your fuck-buddy, your girlfriend, your fiancé or your wife, you are not her first sexual or mental priority. It’s a simple as that.

Whether it’s the result of a prior ‘training regimen’ as in Lingerie’s case or the gift giving scenario Sunshinemary alludes to, the effect is the same – a genuine desire to please someone is always preferable to a coerced obligation to please them.

As I’ve stated before, a woman who want’s to fuck you will find a way to fuck you. If a woman needs to be ‘trained’ to be more sexual and less self-conscious than it takes for her to take the minimal effort to buy something to make herself look and feel more sexually appealing and less self-conscious to fuck you, then you’re dealing with a woman who (at least subconsciously) believes herself to be of a higher SMV status than yourself. In other words, if she has no desire to buy things, or prepare herself to be sexy for you, to entice you, to make your sexual experience with her more memorable than her prospective sexual competitors – you do not merit the optimization of her hypergamic interest, and her involvement with you is predicated upon something other than your genuine sexual appeal to her.

As I’ve elaborated before The Medium is the Message; when single women painstakingly prepare themselves primping and preening before a night out with her girlfriends to meet random guys – that medium is the message. When every look, every clothing option, every makeup and accessory selection is carefully considered to draw potential sexual attention to herself, the message is pretty clear – she’s making an effort to be more attractive for what she values as a reward. Women who are experiencing the hormonal changes associated with the proliferative phase of their menstrual cycle (just pre-ovulation) have a psychological predisposition to want to fuck the ‘good genes’ Alpha. This phase-condition also triggers shifts in female ornamentation; in other words, when women ovulate they dress to impress.

When a woman will put forth this concerted effort to achieve a socio-sexual reward, yet later fail to, or discontinues her previous efforts to, make the same effort to sustain your socio-sexual interests in her, that medium is also a message she’s broadcasting; she perceives your status (SMV) to be less valuable than the effort necessary to sustain your interest in her.

That isn’t to say every sexual instance you have should always be this side of professional porn, but it is to say that sexual spontaneity and her maintained effort to please you of her own volition are indicators of her perception of your sexual market value (SMV) as well as the biological dictates of her menstrual phase. In other words, (perceptual) Alphas get the ornamentation and enthusiasm of women who want to impress, Betas get the comfy, phone-it-in sex, after doing the convincing.

A Gift Must Be Given

Isn’t her body supposed to be a gift for you?

Yes, but a gift must be given, not taken by force or by due, else it’s not a gift anymore.

One principle I always suggest for Men spinning plates is that they make their attentions and interests in a woman a reward for that woman’s efforts and investments in him. From a PUA perspective this a flipping of the feminine script of qualifying for her rewards, but it’s a very important principle to understand and internalize on your own. Dread Game is founded on this principle, but it goes beyond just this utility – your merit, your attention and what it’s worth for a woman to invest herself in it will set the frame for any future relationship you have with her.

When that attention is given too liberally or a guy, as the result of his feminized conditioning, thinks women want full disclosure of feelings and a man gives his attention away without some kind of earning it dynamic on a woman’s part, his attentions become effectively worthless to her.

I’m prefacing with this because it’s important to recognize the value a Man’s attention has for women when you are assessing her real estimate of your personal value. Generally, women aren’t going to overtly give a man she’s involved with an honest assessment of his value to her. This is part of him Just Getting It and the unspoken understanding that he does get it, and on some level does understand what his value is to her. An Alpha doesn’t ask direct questions about his own status with women, he intrinsically understands it as reflected through women’s behavior around him.

However, women rarely disclose a Man’s impression on her – in fact the only time a woman is prompted to reveal ‘what she really thinks’ about a man is during or after a breakup. Rather, her continued assessment of him in a relationship (long or short term) is expressed in her attitudes, behaviors, physicality, ornamentation, and her willingness (or reservations) to want to please him.

I have a real tough time with the concept of a woman’s sexuality being a gift to give to a man. When a woman perceives a man’s SMV (or Alpha assessment) to be less than what her hypergamy could merit (realistically or not) for optimization, that is when the gifting-of-sex social convention becomes the dominant psychology for her. For a man who doesn’t merit it, or a Beta provider unused to the ‘reward’ of sex, this gifting becomes a situation of intermittent reinforcement of desired behavior (your continued Beta provisioning and comfort).

One, feminized, social indicator of this dynamic is a constant, male-psychological condition of self-deprecation. For example, I mentioned in last week’s post, most Valentines Day card’s messages from men to women is one of an unworthiness of her divine love, sex and patience with him. Essentially it’s a precondition of never meriting her intimacy. When this is a man’s operational psychology with respect to women, it only serves to perpetuate his qualifying for her gift and telegraphs his status of (at least mentally) being Beta. Men often ask me where the dynamic of pedestalization comes from and why it seems to be men’s default psychology with regard to women, its root is in this gift-to-merit social/psychological dependency.

Alpha Fucks & Beta Gifts

As with the woman in my illustration in Good Girls Do, Alpha men, or men that women preselect as possessing Alpha traits and attitudes, aren’t “given the gift’ of her sexuality, she simply has desired sex with him as opportunity and environment allow. The conditional reward, or sex-as-gift dynamic isn’t even a consideration, only sexual urgency and opportunism as buffered by the filters of her conscience, convictions or emotional barriers (or lack thereof). Alpha fucks isn’t a gift, it’s desired sex of opportunity and urgency.

I think it’s worth pointing out the obvious contrast this gift dynamic has with regards to the man who’s wife was provably more sexually adventurous in her past than she ever was with him for the duration of his marriage – Saving the Best. That post, and the 700+ comment thread that followed were cause for a lot of righteous indignation from men who’d also been on the receiving end of being sold one sexual personality, but later discovered his wife (previously or concurrently) had quite another.

As callous as this is going to sound, while I can understand feelings of betrayal at the duplicity, I also understand the mechanics behind women’s dualistic sexual strategy. The most common criticism of this husband was that he was a fool for ever having married a woman unwilling to give him her best sexually. He should’ve seen the red flags and avoided investing his life, and the life of a child, in a woman with sexual hangups,..with him.

It’s very easy to be an armchair life-coach after the fact, but I’m not sure most men realize what those red flags are when they see them. Most men, by way of a lifetime of feminine sensitivity training, take women at their word rather than see the message in her medium. They never have the opportunity to truly grasp the socio-sexual strategy women employ over the course of a lifetime to optimize hypergamy and Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks. And even after he’s been on the sharp end of that equation, most guys still don’t want to believe her medium was ever the message.

If a woman is reserved with you sexually, if her conditions for being sexual are based on a perceived reward or a gifting mentality, that is the message. If a woman needs convincing to be more sexual with you, that is the message. If a woman is sexually aggressive with you, if she exhibits behaviors that indicate she’s planning to create an environment that would facilitates your having sex, that is the message. Women who are into you won’t confuse you. Understand the mechanics of how her sexual strategy works, how the particulars of it are manifested in her words, attitudes and behaviors, and how to leverage it to your advantage or see the warning signs in it, and you will be better prepared to see those red flags before you invest yourself in a woman worth or not worth investing in.


195 responses to “The Gift

  • Victor King

    Thank you for this post Rollo. I have learned the hard way that authentic desire cannot be negotiated or “gifted.” And I thank you for pointing out the problem in Sunshine Mary’s perspective. Honestly, her Christian sermonizing consistently reveals that she doesn’t understand or want to understand that Christianity is by its nature a beta-producing religious tradition. I’ve found her negativity toward masculine religions like Islam to reek more of defensiveness, like the woman that settled for a beta and is trying to convince herself that her husband is an alpha, while belittling her neighbor who actually married an alpha.

  • Laguna Beach Fogey

    Funny, I wrote about this topic today.

    I used to be the one giving gifts. But at some point I figured it out and stopped.

    Today, the women in my life give *me* gifts, not only their body but also items they know I’ll enjoy.

    Case in point: for Saint Valentine’s Day one of the girls in my dating rotation presented me with a nice pair of aviator sunglasses.

  • talprofs

    @Rollo
    Your ‘armchair’ view is better than many supposed ‘field reports’ that I have read!
    Again, you hit the nail on the head.
    I am attempting to come to terms with the wreckage of a 22-year marriage to a woman whose psychosexual message to me (BB) was radically different to that of her previous relationships (AF – to the extent that I know about them, and on the basis that what I do know is reliable).
    I saw the flags, but married her anyway (I loved her). By this token, I now realise that I wilfully entered into an act of self-deception (beta-conditioning will do that to a man.
    You are right, and as Marshall McLuhan has said, that: ‘The medium is the message.’
    On a positive note (it is never too late to swallow the Red Pill), I no longer maintain platonic relationships with women who are not family members; unless I am required to deal with women in a professional capacity (in which case they are off-limits from the outset for the duration of the professional engagement), I now do not waste my time.
    I have also reviewed and changed my legal counsel from a woman to a man, after the initial advice from the woman lawyer appeared to be partisan to the interests of my wife! Needless to say, the advice from the male lawyer was radically different.
    If it comes to a fight, as so many divorces do, it is imperative that your lawyer is in your corner right from the start. As a man, that necessarily means only another man can represent your interests.
    Keep up the excellent work that you do: your blog is a light in the darkness for many of us.

  • thebastardson

    I agree 100%.
    My girl and I didn’t do much this Valentines… Saturday night we went to see the new Hobbit at a local Mall. We got there early to piss around and I ended up watching her throw down over $250 in Victoria’s Secret on bedroom attire. I had no idea she was going to do this at all. I didn’t hint towards it or even have the thought of it. $250 is a ridiculous amount of money to spend in my opinion, but it’s her money and she does way more than her share of paying bills, buying food, and getting me cigarettes, booze, and whatever else I might be running low on. I don’t see her buying lingerie as a gift to me as much as it is for herself. She asked for my every thought on each piece, but she also didn’t want me to see the price tag. When we were a the checkout she already knew what I was going to say and told me not to look at the register. I let out a few thoughts, but ultimately it made me feel good and I let her know that if she wants to buy it I have no objections… I trust her with money. Most guys can’t trust their women with three dollars. If I would have told to her to buy it, or bought it for her myself it wouldn’t have been the same.
    Great post man.

  • Simian Outcast

    This post is another reminder that the impulses that give rise to the sexual marketplace are completely alien to the classical economics notion of a rational homo economicus.

  • deti

    Rollo, I had forgotten (again) your post “The Medium is the Message”. I went back and read it again. I think it’s one of your most important posts.

    From “The Medium is the Message”:

    “I hate the term ‘Mixed Signals’ or ‘Mixed Messages’. More often than not there’s nothing ‘Mixed’ being communicated and rather it’s a failure (willful or not) to read what a woman is communicating to a man. The average guy tends to ‘get’ exactly what a woman has implied with her words, but it takes practice to read her behavior and then more practice in self-control to apply it to his own interpretation.

    “When a woman goes from hot to cold and back again, THIS IS the message – she’s got buyers remorse, you’re not her first priority, she’s deliberating between you and what she perceives is a better prospect, you were better looking when she was drunk, etc. – the message isn’t the ‘what ifs’, the message IS her own hesitation and how her behavior manifests it. 10 dates before sex? This IS the message. Canceling dates? Flaking? strong interest to weak interest? This IS the message.”

  • LucasBly

    So essentially, I’m reading the last four paragraphs of your essay to read:

    “She married you because you are a provider, not because she was attracted to you. She’ll never be as attracted to you as she was to her previous Alpha Fucks.”

    That’s a tough pill to swallow, my brother.

    The issue being, of course, what to do with yourself, and with her, after you discover you got gamed into that kind of marriage.

  • AKA

    To reinforce Rollo’s idea that “a woman who want’s to fuck you will find a way to fuck you.”

    That is exactly what is going on when you meet someone and get laid in way that makes you think “wow that was so easy”.

    This is where a lot of the – just be yourself – advice comes from. If you do not have to work very hard for it, the girl was into you all along and it is a good situation. If you are having to work too hard to impress her, it should be a red flag.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    “Most men, by way of a lifetime of feminine sensitivity training, take women at their word rather than see the message in her medium.”

    From trying to get men to give them attention in the workplace, to getting them to help them move, to boyfriends/husbands, to at school, most men really do not realize how often and how much effort women are using indignation, fake offense, manipulation, and numerous other forms of fronting on guys.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    There is a cliché that states a woman knows within 5 minutes of meeting you if she’s going to fuck you. I disagree.

    It should be, a woman knows within 5 minutes of meeting you if she wont fuck you.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    “This is where a lot of the – just be yourself – advice comes from. “

    Contrast that to the times that people try to give women dating advice. You never here “just be yourself” given to women. Commercial for a tv show had a woman admitting that she’ll snoop through a guys emails. The advice given was don’t tell a guy that. Didn’t advise her to change her behavior to something that would appeal to a man, just not to tell him.

  • jf12

    Re: Rollo at 4:14 pm yes. In the same way that a man approaches a woman looking for indicators of her interest, a woman looks at a man for indicators of her own disinterest.

    I have come to the conclusion that in the same way that the vast majority of a man’s LTR behaviors towards a woman are geared to trying to have sex with her, a similarly vast majority of that woman’s behaviors are designed to dissuade him from trying to have sex with her.

  • myalphaplan

    Great article.

    Reminds me of a time a girl told me ,”girl dress to impress other girls” as she went out in a see through shirt on a girls night.

    I was not impressed and told her you inviting male attention.

    I’d like to know more on this…is there any truth to girls dressing to impress other girls?

  • jf12

    In AF, he is the gift. He is his own skittles. Always keep in mind the fundamental primate status rule of thumb: a female will service an alpha male (give him food, grooming) in order for her to
    1. Have sex with him
    2. Avoid being killed by him
    In total, complete, stark contrast, a female will accept service from a beta male (give her food, grooming) in order for him to
    1. Have any hopes of having sex with her

    It’s not like the beta is going to up his chances with females by suddenly ceasing providing services to females. However, what will up his chances with females is if the females suddenly start providing services to him. It’s always 100% up to the females.

  • tweed

    Rollo, any particular reason you reference SSM so often? not that im complaining.

  • Hobbes

    I used to think women were dressing to get male attention and get laid.. but in my 40 yrs of experience and lots of conversations with women- family, friends, etc- I have come to believe that women dress to impress other women. Its a very simple thing, whether a woman has any desire to screw a guy on a particular night or not, she wants to be the center of attention either way. By dressing up and being hotter, or higher up the social ladder, than her friends is what women tend to do everything for.

    I have found that woman are even as hypergamous as they are because they are literally in competition with other women. I have seen plenty of women go with the “alpha” with the high smv, not because he made them wet, but because she knew he was a better prize that she could show of to her friends and social circle.

    I may be wrong, but I often suspect we, as men, misunderstand hypergamy from a womans perspective. We inherently think about it terms of desire/sex/provisioning because that is how we view life. Women, I suspect, are hypergamous because of much different reasons. They are essentially in competition with each other for status, and her “desire” has very little to do with it at all.

    Women dress up for two reason 1. to manipulate a man and 2. for the sake of being higher up the ladder than her friends.

  • RasAlGhul

    Unless you’re dealing with a personality disordered woman, in which case, she will behave like a porn star for as long as it takes you to get you hooked, and then go the gift/reward/control route.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    “I used to think women were dressing to get male attention and get laid.. but in my 40 yrs of experience and lots of conversations with women-family, friends…

    Just because they were family and friends doesn’t mean they weren’t any less concealing. Women have always told men that they dress for other women. But that’s another example of what they say vs. what they do. They dress for men, themselves, and they dress for women.
    I will say that the degree to which one matters will shift. The going out clothes, the work clothes, or as they age, or depending on what type of body they have, can go back and forth to more emphasis on impressing men or women. A women always wants to impress a man and always wants to dress good enough that there’s at least one woman she feels she looks better than.
    Like Rollo said, attention is currency in girl world.

  • LostSailor

    To be fair to Sunshinemary, she’s talking about sex being a “gift” in a very specific context of Christian marriage, which is a different thing. That said, I completely agree that sex offered by a woman as a “reward” for good behavior is toxic to relationships.

    But on the topic of buying lingerie, I used to do it, but don’t any longer. And I completely agree that men shouldn’t do it unless it’s specifically requested.

    I have a current FWB to whom I once casually mentioned that I like thigh-high stockings. We get together about once a month for a weekend. She always brings new options and has told me that she really enjoys shopping in anticipation of our next meeting. Early on, she indicated that she was developing feelings and might want more, but I nipped that in the bud with some talk about respecting her feelings and cutting off the arrangement if she wanted to go there. She backed off. Since then there have been times when I had to alter our arrangements at the last minute and she got pissy. I ignore and inevitably, she apologizes.

    Lesson: tell women what you like and expect them to buy it and wear it. And never accept sex as a “gift” for good behavior…

  • Gnarkillicious

    Excellent post. An excellent reminder that feminine explications are useless and only behavior should dictate the proper Alpha response.

  • Nobo

    This reminds me of something Doc Love said years ago “a woman will never make it harder than it has to be to have sex with her if she wants to have sex with you”. Now yes LMR etc but she will actively help you to fuck her if she wants you to fuck her.

  • BC

    This post is absolutely golden, especially the middle section (A Gift Must Be Given) with respect to behavioral conditioning (intermittent reinforcement). My background is also social and behavioral psychology, and I cannot emphasize enough how important and powerful this is. Read about operant conditioning and positive and negative reinforcement. Watch and study “The Dog Whisperer” and other animal training materials. Then engage in some possibly uncomfortable introspection and try to understand not just what you are doing wrong, but how you are also reacting wrongly to various eases, prods and other stimuli.

    A beta who is able to understand and internalize these principles will become a very different man.

  • SirNemesis

    A month back I was at the Post Office and noticed Valentine’s Day cards for sale. Most of them were rather lame. However, one showed two pandas on a tree with the caption, “Honey, I know you have a headache, but we’re going extinct!” ROFL.

  • SirNemesis

    As with the woman in my illustration in Good Girls Do, Alpha men, or men that women preselect as possessing Alpha traits and attitudes, aren’t “given the gift’ of her sexuality, she simply has desired sex with him as opportunity and environment allow. The conditional reward, or sex-as-gift dynamic isn’t even a consideration, only sexual urgency and opportunism as buffered by the filters of her conscience, convictions or emotional barriers (or lack thereof). Alpha fucks isn’t a gift, it’s desired sex of opportunity and urgency.

    To the contrary, Alpha fucks are a gift from the Alpha to the girl.

  • walawala

    If this is the case why is it that some women will dump an alpha who’s banging their brains out in favour of a puffy beta provider?

    This has happened to me in the past. I don’t get it.

    In one case the girl I was seeing was so sexual with me. I took her home, finger-banged her. Next she goes cool. Then I notice she’s with a puffy beta shlub. Then I see she marries the guy.

  • Gary

    I always struggled with the term ‘medium is the message’. I understood the explanation, but not the term itself.

    I realise now you are actually describing ‘Revealed Preferences’. Economists have understood this shit for ages; ignore what consumers *say* they want – their true preferences are only revealed by their actions.

    Just in case the terminology was confusing others as well.

  • The Burninator

    Interesting article, but it begs the question then – What are the red flags BEFORE the ring goes on the finger? Take the case of the men you cite who felt they were sold a bill of goods. What they mean, as I take it, is that the woman WAS having wild crazy monkey sex with them all the time without them needing to ask, qualify or in any way have to prompt her to do so. In essence, she treats him like the alpha that she cannot keep her hands off of, and if he was a normal alpha in real life he would probably accept this as normal. Where are the red flags there and THEN for him to read to know she’d go cold fish later in life, for example?

    After the marriage, sometimes just a few short years, then we hear of the sexless husband, fully betatized, begging for sex. But based on his previous experience with the woman, what should he have been looking for to tip him off? Yes, the medium is the message, but when the medium to trap a guy into marriage is constant mind blowing sex and constant happy times, I’m not entirely certain that THIS is not the medium to him, at the time it is happening, hence why he ups and marries the soon-to-be-sexless-shrew broad.

    I get that some guys go full beta on their own due to their social conditioning and that ultimately this creates a less than desirable response from their woman/wives. My question is pointed more towards the men who are alpha who get duped. It doesn’t seem to be as neat and pat as it used to be, there are a lot of really fucked up, mind game playing women out there these days who will do and fake just about anything in order to achieve her goals and Have It All! ™.

  • www.vinaywcmd.com

    Deep down, I think nearly all men know if they are trying too hard. They live in ignorance of this somewhat subconscious existence because the default is to believe their girlfriends will eventually be hypnotized by the generosity and expenditure.

    This method can work in the short term – more than most men from the opposing side of this argument give credit for – as the ego boost she attains can lead a giving man to the bedroom. Unfortunately, it was all too much too soon, and arriverderci she goes once the gratitude fragments…

    Just a few examples on below link to the hows and whys:

    http://www.vinaywcmd.com/2014/02/mens-basic-errors-with-excessive-and.html

  • jf12

    Re: the medium is the message. The term is from McLuhan’s observation that when people say they were watching tv, that’s what they really were doing: they weren’t watching a show they wanted to watch that just happened to be on tv, they were watching a tv that just happened to display a show. In typical usage the term implies, obviously, that the means by which a person chooses to communicate often comprises or overshadows the supposed content.

    Another familiar example besides watching tv (or listening to the radio, or browsing the internet etc) is tuneless whistling. The medium is the message.

    Rollo is saying that of the mere fact of women going through the trouble of trying to appear interested, that fact itself demonstrates their interest. And more crucially, the fact of a woman choosing to cease to exhbit special interest, that fact communicates her disinterest. It’s how women do things, typically. Men communicate by communicating; if a man wants sex then he’ll try for it verbally etc. But a woman typically indirectly (covertly, e.g.) communicates, not least to give herself plausible deniability.

  • kaizersoze71

    Great post Rollo. I would like to add there exists a type of woman who will fuck you regularly but not be “that into you”. Very deceitful. Women will fake an orgasm but they won’t fake a multiple orgasm.

  • jf12

    I am suddenly struck by the realization that an average woman would consider her *interest* in a man a gift to him, because her interest is so rare for other men. Imagine how funny it would be if an average man’s interest was considered a gift by women! Ha ha!

  • Rollo Tomassi

    That’s interesting, there’s a theory/study (I think on CH) that indicates women only fake orgasms for Alpha men. The idea is that Betas don’t merit the courtesy of faking it, but Alphas do in an effort to keep his sexual interest in her sustained.

  • YaReally

    Some girls say that buying sexy lingerie and dressing up for sex is only for special occasions. Well sex with me is ALWAYS a special occasion. She’s lucky I’m allowing her to fuck me, so I expect her to put in effort.

    If she doesn’t, that’s perfectly alright by me. I’m not a controlling man, I just know what I like. If she makes the conscious decision that pleasing me isn’t her top priority when I allow her the chance to touch my dick, that’s cool, she just becomes lower priority in my rotation under the girls who DO appreciate the prize they’ve won.

    If she continues to slack, I stop calling. If she gets her act together again, she goes back up in priority again. It’s a very simple formula and isn’t swayed by her logical discussions or complaining. Why would I waste my time with a girl who doesn’t view sex with me as something she should value?

    I have this freedom because I don’t do monogamy. Once you enter a monogamous relationship (especially legally in marriage), you voluntarily neuter this power lol

    I’ve had girl with boyfriends/husbands who go but sexy outfits to fuck me in that they’ll never wear for their lame provider men. Often, as others have mentioned, the girls LOVE getting to dress up and love the anxiety of hoping their outfit gets your approval.

    The death ring of a relationship is the first time a girl says “I just want to change into my comfies babe” when she walks thru the door.

    Setting and enforcing this frame is all learned though…I used to be like every other beta AFC and would take what I can get. Now I will literally shut the door as I say “nope. Go home and change.” on a girl who doesn’t show up like she won the sexual lottery lol

  • BC

    A+ operant conditioning post by YaReally, as always.

    On frame and the subject of schedules of intermittent reinforcement, it is important to note that it is worse to resist and then fold than it is to simply fold (accept a situation) from the outset. When you accept something the first time, you might still be able to get away with deciding that you won’t accept it later. (i.e., you were just seeing how something worked or you had other things on your mind and couldn’t be bothered at the time, etc.) Weak and iffy, sure, but still potentially an option. But when you resist (and resist and resist) and then fold, you are teaching the other person that no matter how much you may resist, you will eventually fold, which yields the option of frame. Which is all just another way of saying:

    Hold. Your. Frame.

  • YaReally

    @BC

    “it is important to note that it is worse to resist and then fold than it is to simply fold (accept a situation) from the outset.”

    Agreed. I’m a nice guy, I’ll give women a chance…maybe she decided to answer her door in sweatpants and no makeup because I wasn’t clear enough about what I expect. That first time I’ll go in and we’ll bang like normal, and I’ll simply make it clear after we fuck that I won’t accept that behavior next time.

    The next time, I’ll be going to her place with the full intention of turning around and heading home if she answers the door and isn’t done up, because at that point she’s actively choosing to not care about my desires and needs to know that I’m perfectly fine with walking away and calling up or finding a different girl who will put in the effort I like.

    There’s no bitterness, no butt-hurtness, it’s just a cold clinical “the formula is A + B = C…if you don’t provide B, then you don’t get C. Provide B again and you’re more than welcome back into my world to get C, but the decision is entirely up to you.”

    This is also why I like having them come over to my place, ’cause it’s easier to shut the door on them and the consequence is more in-her-face when she has to do a walk-of-shame away from my door and drive all the way home (even better if she cabbed or took the bus lol) and blows up in txts at me for a couple hours calling me an asshole etc…she won’t forget that anytime soon. Whereas going to her place and then turning around and leaving, while necessary sometimes, is a waste of my time/effort and less consequential to her because she simply doesn’t get laid and, depending on her options, may not be that big a deal to her since she didn’t really have to invest anything that night…the more of an impact you make, the more she understands that you’re a man willing to enforce his boundaries/expectations which is, inherently, attractive and raises your value because you clearly have abundance if you can turn away sex that isn’t 100% on your terms.

  • jf12

    Re: fake orgasms. Yes, it’s true. Alphas seldom develop good lovemaking skills, because literally her orgasms don’t matter. In contrast, good betas by definition are good at servicing women: even more than what betas DO, that’s what betas ARE: women-servicers.

    There are three peer-reviewed references, none at hand, regarding women faking more with alphas. Women fake more with facially attractive men, women fake much more with men the women believe are promiscuous (whether or not the men really are promiscuous), and women fake an enormously greater amount with total strangers or one-night-stand they will never see again – essentially all of these are fake.

    In total, complete, stark contrast, women have easier and stronger and a higher percentage of orgasms with men the women believe are wealthy (whether or not the men really are wealthy), with men the women believe are completely faithful, and with men they have known a long time and are completely comfortable with e.g. LTR.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    @Walawala. There was a payoff to that provider in some way. Maybe easy to get him to provide money to pay for stuff.

    @Burminator. One of the case studies you may be referring to wasn’t a situation where she was doing it deep with him and she stopped. It was actually that she was barely doing anything, uptight and conservative, but he found an old video she kept of herself getting a train run on her by other guys.
    That was the hoodwink if we’re talking about the same people. But to talk about hypothetical red flags can go on and on. They can be as small as an off the cuff comment she makes to her friends if they’re talking about something you may not like and she says to them “oh, he’s not going anywhere”. Or you can read the post about “the man in the garage” to see, although it’s about somebody who’s already married, will illustrate for you how a series of red flags can look that are ignored. And it may remind you of people you know or have at least seen.

  • Andrews

    @Victor King

    Islam – from ‘al-silm’ – to surrender, submission to Allah. Submission to the alpha masculine entity.

    The values and proposed organization of a society via any religion or ideology is a mimetic filter which in turn influences the genetics of a population.
    Interestingly enough, making the man the head of the family by law does remove the selective pressure from the males within a society to be dominant by nature.
    If the wife will be obedient, no matter how pathetic the husband may be because of the laws in place then there is no genetic pressure for men to become tough in that regard.
    Similarly, if men are conditioned in modern liberal societies to worship women regardless of their qualities then it is no wonder to have an increasing number of shrews and wales in the environment. Mimetic becomes genetic over long times, say 2000 years+.

  • Gabriel King (@Gabriel_King182)

    My subtitle for this solid post is Should I invest, or not invest in the woman I’m with. The answer depends on the amount & size of the red flags I find on her.

  • Glenn

    Gifts and cajoling and negotiating desire are shortcuts for lazy men who don’t want to really understand what women are reacting to. If your wife or gf doesn’t want to have sex with you, it’s because they are not aroused by you. The answer isn’t to talk them into being aroused, it’s to do the things that arouse women. It’s so simple and yet so foreign to how men are socialized to relate to women.

    I wonder, how much of this is a result of beta views being institutionalized and lionized by men themselves? I mean it’s much more gratifying to the ego to claim “it’s not fair, I’m a good guy” than to look in the mirror and realize that you look like a schlubb. That you sit around playing video games 40 hours a week. That your arms have no definition, that your job is a dead end, that you have no hobbies, that you don’t take risks or actually exercise leadership in your life. It’s much easier to sit back and take pot shots at the guy who speaks his mind and lives life on his own terms than actually stand up on your hind legs and be counted for what you actually believe.

    It’s much harder to realize that you are not well informed. That your ideas and views are poorly informed and laughable. That you are inconsequential and literally spend your life freeriding/drafting along on the efforts of others. In other words, ask yourself this: If you were HB8, would you want to fuck you? Or even talk to you?

    [Amen. I love sex too much to ever let myself get out of shape.]

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Lucas, I got your emails. I have an upcoming post that might help you in your situation.

    Stand by.

  • Mike

    Another example of the difference between the way things should be, and the way things are. Most of my struggle is to forget everything I learned about the way things should be, and focus on the way things are. Forget commanding or negotiating. Even when successful, the result is not very much fun. But expecting, and then receiving, unrequested and un-negotiated love is worth the struggle.

  • jf12

    Given that average men’s interest in a woman is severely discounted by her, often if not always to the point of negative value (“I wish creepy guys would all drop dead!”), I wonder about the legitimacy or rather pervasiveness, of the claim that men’s attentions are women’s coin. I think there is no coin of the realm, and that some men’s attentions are much more valuable than others.

  • Edward

    I wasn’t sure where to ask this question – so I’m using the most recent thread. The question could probably fit anywhere on the site.
    What are your thoughts on human thermodynamics?(e.g. http://www.eoht.info/)

  • D-Man

    [i]“I have seen plenty of women go with the “alpha” with the high smv, not because he made them wet, but because she knew he was a better prize that she could show of to her friends and social circle… they are essentially in competition with each other for status, and her “desire” has very little to do with it at all.”

    “…regarding women faking more with alphas. Women fake more with facially attractive men, women fake much more with men the women believe are promiscuous (whether or not the men really are promiscuous), and women fake an enormously greater amount with total strangers or one-night-stand they will never see again – essentially all of these are fake.”[/i]

    These comments, taken together, support the hypothesis that attention, validation, and social status competition can be more important to women than physically getting off.

    Some aspects of Hypergamy are expressed intrasexually (strictly amongst women), and some aspects are completely intrapersonal (existing within the woman herself).

    In both cases the man hardly factors beyond what he represents.

    So, no point worrying.

  • Gabriel King (@Gabriel_King182)

    @ Glenn Your astute comment also applies when you flip the genders. If I said this to overweight, frumpy, or plain women, there would be weeping & gnashing of teeth.

  • Glenn

    Indeed and from one perspective, isn’t the feminist mission of recasting human sexuality with respect to say “fat shaming” and “Barbie” and “beauty” myths really just like Beta complaints? Fyi, just so you guys know, I let myself go in terms of weight and looks over the last 6-7 years (I’m 51). I was ill, but am better now, but am not a great looking fit guy at all right now so I’m not judging anyone. I have been quite fit and attractive points in my life but what was never clear to me was that it was GOOD for me to be sexy and attractive. I had fairly high SMV for while but actually thought there was something vain and superficial etc about all that. That men should actually not focus on such things.

    Yet I enjoyed the feeling of women’s looks when I was very fit and stylish – strange, yes? But the Beta in me resented the women who responded only then, yet at 10 lbs heavier treated me like I was invisible. I remember at one point in my early 30s I had gotten quite fit, probably the most fit I’d ever been and was with a group of guys. I very hot 20 something chick essentially told my lower SMV friends that she wanted to talk to me, not them and I was introduced. She actually threw her pussy at me but I treated her like crap because I realized it was just based on “how I looked”. That was some serious Irish Catholic Femcentric Crap running around in my head. I was accidentally “negging” her so she kept after me, (I only see that now) but it looked to me like she just wouldn’t get the hint so I finally just walked off. Bizarre values and ideas that I held about women just bizarre.

    The now Glenn? I’d fuck her in the men’s room of the club we were in…We have such fucked up ideas about human sexuality in our society.

  • deti

    Burninator:

    “After the marriage, sometimes just a few short years, then we hear of the sexless husband, fully betatized, begging for sex. But based on his previous experience with the woman, what should he have been looking for to tip him off?

    “My question is pointed more towards the men who are alpha who get duped.”

    1. A guy in that situation should take note of the kinds and types of men she was attracted to/fucked before. Huge red flag if you are markedly different from those kinds of men. For example: She used to date guys in shitty bands and small time pro athletes. But she’s now taken quite a shine to mid level business managers and guys with steady jobs. Indicates she’s changing lanes; going for the beta bucks. This woman is for dating; not for marriage.

    2. She was a slut with other guys; makes you wait; then when she finally does take the plunge, the sex is of pornstar quality. Seems to be putting on an act; a performer on stage.

    3. Entitlement mentality surrounding sex. To her, sex is a commodity which she uses as a currency for exchange. She expects something in return for giving you sex.

    4. Firmly controls the sex. Won’t do certain things; will have sex only at certain times; doesn’t like certain sexual acts because “only sluts do THAT” and “I don’t want you to think I’m a slut”. Immediately gets up after sex to expel the semen because “I don’t want to get a yeast infection” or to take care of the wet spot.

    5. Closely related to this is that she remains in control of herself during sex. Never seems to be completely free or enjoying herself; always assessing her own performance and your evaluation of her sexually.

    6. Wants to move rapidly to commitment. Puts out overt and subtle hints that she expects ever increasing investment and commitment in exchange for the sex she’s doling out.

  • jf12

    @deti, yours is not an exhaustive list, and certainly seems to leave off a huge chunk of women, not all of which are hugely chunky.

    0. Didn’t really sleep around much if at all, and definitely made you pursue her and woo her, and of course had a nice honeymoon period near (hopefully mostly after) putting the ring on. But after a few years she greatly lost interest, and the sex dropped by 75% or 80% from daily to a couple times per week if she’s up for it.

    Again, the question stands: what red flags should have tipped him off prior to marriage?

  • Richard

    As accurate and as well thought out as this article is… the conclusion is that the big brave alpha monkey gets the banana because he can jump higher…. what it misses is the hard truth that he’s still only a smelly monkey.

    The whole alpha beta concept is completely flawed for anything long term simply because keeping a woman around long term means she gets to see you at more vulnerable moments. You have the flu, a hang over, are in need of a shave and hair cut, your clothes unkempt, your car broke down, you rear ended someone and bashed your car, you lost your wallet etc. etc. etc. even the most perfect Brad Pitt / Clooney alpha can have shitty days.

    The guy who has a child and lives with a woman is AUTOMATICALLY beta in her eyes, simply because there will be a day when he’s feeling and looking like shit and helping her with a nappy change or something… which is NOT what an alpha does. Your situation is compromised unless you are a single guy, living in a well put together pad, and just presenting your best side to women that don’t know you well.

    As soon as you let them into your life you are BY DEFAULT and AUTOMATICALLY going to slip down the ladder… this is why rock stars, movie stars and ultra wealthy successful guys that ‘get the girl’ as just as likely to get the divorce as well…. after a while she gets to see their bad hair days, bad moods, and also have them in compromised siutations where they help her out and are too nice to her, just by circumstances…. etc.etc.

    The net result of all the meanderings about redpill and women is that it’s necessary to start your day, from the minute you open your eyes, on guard to present only certain alpha traits and only certain attitudes and etc. etc. etc. and that she is constantly assessing you for signs of weakness…..

    Sometimes a guy just wants to have his peace and drink a few beers and watch a movie.. .sometimes he’s busy at work and doesn’t need to ‘put himself together’ – to present that certain facade.

    I’m not interested in women’s games AT ALL. I’m not interested in having them in my life on anything other than my terms…. I want a geisha girl, and i don’t want to have to qualify myself to her ; I WANT HER TO SERVE ME. Not by pressing the right buttons like a rat in a maze…. I don’t give a shit for your maze.

    I don’t want to be the alpha monkey jumping for the banana…. because the smartest monkey of all opens a banana plantation….

  • Richard

    @deti @jf12

    your comments are excellent…. especially

    “3. Entitlement mentality surrounding sex. To her, sex is a commodity which she uses as a currency for exchange. She expects something in return for giving you sex. ”

    but what you miss out and what jf12 alludes to, is the fact that ALL WOMEN, go in this direction and in any kind of LTR they all angle for all of the things you state.

    that is why no#3 is the most important to understand…. in a nutshell all women are whores and all are looking for something in return, some qualification, some green light, some value in giving themselves up…. ok, most women are not angling for hard currency, but i guarantee if you offer enough (and the secret is safe), even Michelle Obama will probably suck your dick.

    As soon as a woman is in an LTR she starts the process of angling the guy into beta mode….. and he doesn’t stand a chance, because the circumstances of an LTR leave him AUTOMATICALLY compromised and her automatically empowered to engage in all of the points 1-6 you mention and many more besides.

    redpill has gone as far as understanding that the matrix exists… big deal… but myself and many other men are simply not interested in living in the matrix and jumping hoops like a performing seal…. i rather have the filthy hoover craft and underground strong hold……

    having understood no#3 the logical solution is to keep any women, from baby mommas to bangs, on a contract, strictly on fixed terms. now you can put those terms in your mind, and try to uphold them, and as deti so accurately defines, women all angle to break your terms…. doing business with a woman in an LTR is like doing business with a mafia boss… the rules can change AT ANY TIME, and as a result of some minute fopah on your behalf, that she has judged… laughed at you behind your back with girlfriends, and now you are ‘that guy’ – rather than ‘that hot guy’.

    ITS AUTOMATIC – like visiting Antarctica and finding snow…..

    The most desirable guy in the world, super charistmatic, wealthy, socially skilled etc. etc. even if he marries below his SMV and has huge advantages will still get put over by basic female tendencies.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    Hard to say without actually giving details about how she acted with and around. But just based on what you said there, sounds like she followed a script about how things should be. Step A, complete that then step B.
    A woman with hard dating rules, (sounds like she may have had those, but can’t tell too much by just what you’ve said), will have a mission completed attitude. So once all the steps are followed, mission is done, and probably so will the sex.
    And regarding women’s value of men’s attention, they do value some more than others. But they still want it. Ever here bad attention is better than no attention at all? With all the articles, talk, and fear of sexual harassment, you ought to try paying attention to the subtle ways women will try to instigate attention from men, when they aren’t getting any, in places that are supposed to be non sexual. Like the work place.

  • Jeremy

    It’s kind of interesting to consider that the sex that is provably better at language skills is so hamstrung by a dualistic strategy that they won’t use that skill to communicate when it comes to reproduction (arguably the most important function of a human being).

  • Glenn

    @ Richard – Giggling, please tell me how you grow geisha girls like bananas and I’ll just take your advice. Otherwise…Oh, yeah, there is the thought that women are actually people and that some of them actually have something more to offer than sex – but that doesn’t seem to occur to you. So, back to geisha girls and bananas for you i guess…

  • Cara

    Wow. Could the reason women don’t want to fuck you is actually because you are an asshole? Man up you pussies! Men are also guilty of showing only their best behaviour pre-marriage. They give chase but once the prey is caught…? If your idea of foreplay is “Honey, are you awake?” don’t be surprised if she pretends to be asleep. There’s two people post marriage and if she is horny she will fuck you. Even if she hates your guts. Angry/hate sex is better than obligatory/gift sex. Of course, damn-you-make-me-wet sex is even better.

    I fuck because I’m horny. Pure and simple. I wear lingerie because it makes me feel good. That one of my much taller and younger colleagues enjoys looking over my shoulder and down my blouse is only a bonus.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I wear lingerie because it makes me feel good.

    Heheh,..

    So if I came over to your house unannounced at like, 4 in the afternoon, you’d be wearing lingerie while you were vacuuming the house and not in sweatpants and a t-shirt?

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/07/18/crisis-of-motive/

    @Richard, you might find this interesting:

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/29/as-good-as-it-gets/

  • Jeremy

    @Cara

    Could the reason women don’t want to fuck you is actually because you are an asshole?…I fuck because I’m horny. Pure and simple. I wear lingerie because it makes me feel good. That one of my much taller and younger colleagues enjoys looking over my shoulder and down my blouse is only a bonus.

    Not discussed; entirely glossed over; completely ignored because in truth Cara wants men to just get it, is exactly what makes Cara horny. The fact that explicit discussion of what might make Cara horny makes her jump to at the chance to chime in and shift blame towards men for not making her horny only reinforces this fact.

    Men can’t even discuss the facts of how women act without women taking offense at men for not just getting it.

  • walawala

    @YaReally: yes great post. But I have trouble with not getting pissed off when they don’t deliver.

  • AKA

    @Cara. Typical woman. Can’t simply disagree. No. She has to insult others who have a different opinion than her.

  • BC

    @walawala: Because you are too invested in the outcome, and have no backup options. Always have at least one appealing backup option, even if it is just going to the gym, reading a book or seeing a movie that you have wanted to, or doing something else fun/relaxing/self-improving.

    Re: Abundance mentality and outcome independence

  • YaReally

    @walawala

    I agree with BC. I was going to say “you wouldn’t get mad if you had 2 other girls txting you begging to come over that you could flip your phone open and go “k you can come suck my dick but bring wine”.” But having other stuff to do like the gym work etc works too. That’s why we invite girls to something we’re doing anyway, and why I have them come over, so if they flake it’s not a big deal.

    It’ll come over time, as you get more girls on the go. I had one buddy who, if a chick came over and tried to just cuddle and not put out, would flip open his phone and let her see the screen as he started txting another girl to come over to bang, and telling the one cuddled up to him that he’ll call her a taxi. Had a 100% success rate with that tactic lol

  • jf12

    Re: Cara. “I want what I want when I want it, and when I don’t want it there’s nothing you can do about it. So there!” Yeah, we know. AWALT. All, without exception. Except, of course, the empirically provable facts of game. So there!

  • jf12

    @Richard, yes, sadly. Women do not know how to love, period. They do know how to submit, however.

    I have come to the irrevocable conclusion that a man in love is automatically beta because of being in love. And a woman living with a LTR (post-honeymoon period) is automatically out of love, so to be submissive would be merely a rational choice for her instead of what she wants to do.

  • jf12

    At J4G we were discussing validational sex vs transactional sex. I pointed out it was really primate alpha sex vs beta sex. In alpha sex, the female gladly services the male, and she gladly pays him (bananas and grooming). In beta sex, the female ungratefully requires servicing from the male, and demands payment from him (bananas and grooming).

    Parenthetically, to Richard, the alpha male is NOT the one who jumps highest for the banana: he’s the one who taps his foot impatiently as the females climb over each other trying to be the first to get the banana to bring to him.

  • Tam the Bam

    ” That one of my much taller and younger colleagues enjoys looking over my shoulder and down my blouse is only a bonus.”
    Ah, a clearcut case :-
    Tell her that if she doesn’t stop ogling and harassing you, you’ll put in a complaint to management about Superannuated Midget Discrimination.

    My invoice is, as usual, in the mail. 30 days.

  • Richard

    Thanks Rollo…. your article only asks questions…. doesn’t really provide an answer to the problem.

    I have no idea how your marriage is, but I assume it involves a large helping of tedious sacrifice ‘for the greater good’ combine with some kind of self effacing belief that you really benefit from it, or get some magic reward from bringing up kids.

    For my part I’ve been there and tried it all, and while spinning plates is a solution for guys in their 20s-30s, who can marvel at themselves getting laid with multiple women….. frankly it’s a time consuming distraction to much better pursuits such as money making, science, technology, sport, music, reading, writing, philosophy etc. etc. etc. If you were still spinning plates I doubt you’d have time for this blog…. because you’d be constantly gaming new bitches and keeping current ones on track… it’s terribly time consuming having a casual relationship with just one woman never mind several…. it’s also achieves very little from a man’s point of view… other than getting laid….

    Any kind of relationship with any women, even a dirty fuck in a nightclub, means stooping to her level to some degree… once you do that… eventually she will win because you’ve already agreed to a game on HER terms.

    When it comes down to it, and you carefully distill the redpill contents into the finest 12 year old scotch…. women are for having sex with. when women call me out on this and say i am an asshole, that only confirms what i already know. S E X.

    the easiest, most trouble free and least time consuming way to have the sex you want, when you want it, is to find a few reliable whores. better yet, house them, school them and keep them at your beck and call. install a manager or a madam to keep them inline and firewall any kind of relationship, because even women that i have had LTRs with…. daughter of a diplomat and second a girl with an MBA…. smart, bright, motivated women…. as good as anyone would want (marry some heiress or super successful woman would be terrible and marrying a peasant girl would be limited at best, since conversations would be non existent.)

    they all turned out the same way and absolutely more trouble than they were worth…. worse they were a hugely draining, tiring, complicated nonsense that sucked the life out of my professional pursuits… just moving out and splitting up furniture is a fuss that consumes a few weeks of your life, you would better off doing something professional instead. we only have 144 hours per week and 1/3rd of that is spent sleeping.

    the main problem is here, that men have not fully detached themselves from the blue pill ideals… knowing something (redpill) is very different from engaging and practicing something…. even Roosh’s mini relationships still need some input and effort… I don’t want to put in any effort at all, i just want to fuck – and then get back to my own pursuits.

    if any man is truely honest with himself he will see that this is the case.

    before you can engage and practice something you need to know what it is you want out of it…. guys in your situation (and my situation also) are all ready in relationships pre-red pill, although i am a fairly alpha character… as you say, Athol’s ideas are just playing a rear guard action…. it works as far as it can… and perhaps if I started all over again and banged another 30-40 girls and picked a real good’en and started an LTR it might be 10-20% better than what I have…. BUT I DON’T want any of that shit….

    Men only need women for sex… whereas women play a myraid of games to get all kinds of other valuable out of a relationship (much of it totally pointless and some of it plain detrimental to both parties.)

    As clinical and dry, as my (asshole) ideas might be…. simply accepting that sex is a commodity… a relaxing therapy / massage / time out… is the most honest situation for any man.

    As soon as you start having sex with a woman who ‘thinks’ she is in any kind of relationship with you, that means she immediately gives herself the right to begin cross examining you, criticizing you and basically invading your space…

    If you’ve never slept with a good pro… who welcomes you in lingerie…. gives an amazing fullbody massage that practically has you feeling like you can’t be bothered to have sex with her…. and then she turns you on light the stadium lights at the football field and does anything and everything YOU want, plus extras you never even thought of…. her room is a perfectly organised sex den, there is no conversation about ANYTHING… she conducts herself absolutely professionally in every way……..

    once you’ve had a taste of this…. you’ll see that ANY sex in ANY relationship is akin to driving a tatty 10 year old car…… why bother when you can hire a Ferrari….. and better yet….. put a little effort and energy in a totally different outside the box (and socially unacceptable) way… and you’ve going to be having a ball…. with girls who do not judge, do not talk, do not ruin your space or peace of mind and are simply there to serve you… THAT is WHAT i want….

    if some redpill guy claims to still want a relationship… it’s only because he’s never tasted the real deal….

    I’ve climbed the peak and seen the otherside of the red pill mountains… and there’s a paradise down there…..

  • jf12

    @Tam good catch! Only a woman would look down another woman’s blouse in order to better see the lingerie! “Where did you get that? It’s so cute!”

  • redcastle600

    God forbid any man have expectations…

  • david

    Rollo, what do you think about recommitted Christian virgins waiting for marriage? Isn’t this just a sinister shit test? In your book, it says you don’t have to be banging the plates, just that you “know” it would be possible. Can you hint at what these indicators would be in a more conservative setting?
    Thanks

  • jf12

    Re: virtual knowledge. “Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” For those of us who are not as blessed, we kinda have to poke it with our finger to see if it’s real or not.

  • deti

    david:

    “what do you think about recommitted Christian virgins waiting for marriage? Isn’t this just a sinister shit test? In your book, it says you don’t have to be banging the plates, just that you “know” it would be possible. Can you hint at what these indicators would be in a more conservative setting?”

    What do you mean by “recommitted Christian virgins waiting for marriage”? Do you mean actual virgins who have returned to faith and want to get married?

    Or do you mean reformed sluts claiming the mantle of “born again virginity” and who have returned to church at age 29 ½ for the beta bucks as the last of their SMV/MMV slips away?

    As for the last questions as to it being possible to “bang the plates” and how that looks in a more conservative setting, keep in mind that there are no differences between Christian women and nonChristian women when it comes to sexuality, attraction, etc. She might be a Christian who loves God and lifts up holy hands, but at the end of the day she’s still a woman with all the peccadilloes, attraction triggers and IOIs that that entails.

    A Christian woman attracted to a man behaves pretty much like a nonChristian woman attracted to a man behaves – blushing, hair twirling, defensive, giggling at his teasing, squaring up her body and shoulders to him; opening up her body to him, uncrossing arms and legs when facing him, casting eyes down, tilting head down, reflexively submitting to him, doing whatever it takes to see him and be with him.

    A Christian woman who’s not attracted to a man behaves pretty much like a nonChristian woman who’s not attracted to a man behaves – avoidance, appearing bored or annoyed, closing off her body to him; sneering and turning up her nose at him; turning away from him; surrounding herself with other people to use as cockblockers; refusing to listen to him; rebelling against and defying him; doing whatever it takes to get away from him and avoid him.

  • Rol

    @Richard

    It really doesn’t get any better than either spinning plates and/or paying for a pro.

    You want commitment from an attractive woman? You need to be well above average in at least one or possess an above average combination of looks/status/money.

    I’m seeing more and more women simply living a dual lifestyle. Men have been whipped so hard and for so long that they’re either completely oblivious or in denial.

    I saw the female of a couple that lives next door, cutting through the middle of some townhouses behind my house, to get back to her home through a rear alley. She was with a man I hadn’t seen before and they hadn’t noticed my presence until I got out of my car with a bag of groceries. Upon seeing me they split up and started walking in opposite directions but they both stopped at the edge of a curb. When I looked over I was going to wave to the female because I’ve met her but they both stood there looking down at their feet, guilty as sin.

    I had already engaged my garage door to close so they stood there the entire time until it closed like a pair of dumb high school kids, making the whole thing much more obvious, until my door closed, then they rejoined to enter her house.

    This chick was overtly flirtatious with me before, but I met her husband/bf and he was cool as shit, I wasn’t going to touch her, and they live next door (I’m not THAT stupid).

    She’s now pregnant and I’m pretty sure this dude thinks she’s a pretty little angel that would never dream of hurting him in this way.

    There it is, the whole alpha fucks/beta bucks right before my eyes and that’s just one incident I’ve seen recently, I’ve got plenty more stories.

    How many men do you think are out there who have settled down with a woman and are raising a child together thinking things couldn’t have turned out better? If they only knew…

  • Bachelorocles

    Well done, Rollo! Well done!

    When a woman wants you sexually, when you give her pussy throbs, she will make every effort to make herself as sexually attractive to you as possible – blowjobs will be masterfully executed and she will enter sub-space when blowing you. She will do more: she will slyly discovery your tastes (style of pussy shaving, lingerie preferences, stockings, fishnets, bustiers, boots, fuck me shoes, leather skirts, etc) and she will comply with your tastes without you having to ask or bargain.

    “One, feminized, social indicator of this dynamic is a constant, male-psychological condition of self-deprecation.”

    This is why women SAY they like chivalrous gestures – eg, opening doors, standing when she enters a room, dropping her off at the restaurant door, compliments, kissing her ass, etc. (Most) Women will not say bad boy behavior makes the pussy throb.

  • livingtree2013

    Hey guys, your favorite trouble maker is back! Still training to be the ultimate pussy chasers I see. Sigh.

    Anyway…

    Rollo says, in the midst of the lecture: “I have a real tough time with the concept of a woman’s sexuality being a gift to give to a man. When a woman perceives a man’s SMV (or Alpha assessment) to be less than what her hypergamy could merit (realistically or not) for optimization, that is when the gifting-of-sex social convention becomes the dominant psychology for her. For a man who doesn’t merit it, or a Beta provider unused to the ‘reward’ of sex, this gifting becomes a situation of intermittent reinforcement of desired behavior (your continued Beta provisioning and comfort).

    Thank the gods of reason that you said this Rollo. The view of sex as a gift is the very essence of everything that is wrong with male-female interaction, and the central issue of every topic you guys discuss here.

    Women’s sexuality is extremely over-valued (as compared to men’s, since most men will give their bodies away to anyone who’s willing). It makes women’s sexually an endlessly confounding arena for us. By doing that, you willingly put the “gift giver” in a position of unfair power over you, where sex becomes the currency of the relationship. The gift becomes viewed as a possession, as in the man who is given that gift becomes possessive about it, like he is the sole possessor of it, simply because of the disproportionate value he’s placed upon it. If beta men didn’t place such a high value on it, marriage would have no reason to exist, or at least the type of marriage intended to give a (false) sense of security would have no reason to exist.

    And if men didn’t place such an incomprehensibly high estimation on women’s sexuality, all of their emotional problems around sex would (more or less) instantly evaporate…

  • BlackPoisonSoul

    @LT – just not your pussy, thanks. I prefer younger, hotter, tighter.

    And if men didn’t place such an incomprehensibly high estimation on women’s sexuality, all of their emotional problems around sex would (more or less) instantly evaporate…

    Thought experiment: Let’s governmentally mandate that all women must have sex with any guy who says “let’s fuck”. This will fix all men’s emotional problems around sex. By reading what you’ve written you have absolutely no emotional problems or attachment to sex, so it will not be a problem for you when a 70yo has sex with you.

    Boys, I think that we may have solved the problem of angry and frustrated men. Thank you for being so supporting of men, LT. It’s only a minor thing after all.

    /trolling the troll

  • Jeremy

    LT is a great example of the medium being the message. I find it incomprehensible that the mind behind those comments is capable of thinking rationally about what people have said on a subject before re-interpreting it into a covert-communication base and re-expressing it into a context-based morass of nonsense. Her ultimate goal is simply attention.

  • jf12

    @BlakPoisonSoul, yes. The life that most men lead is already enough proof that the entirety of the problem is that all women negatively value sex from most men. It’s not even amusing for LT to pretend the opposite.

  • Glenn

    @BlackPoisonSoul – Great minds think alike – I imagined a similar thought experiment. It’s funny, she uses an economic frame to analyze this but clearly doesn’t understand the first thing about economics. As an aside, women routinely score like male children on economic knowledge and it gets worse with more education – see economist Bryan Caplan’s work on this topic.

    She’s essentially pushing a demand based view of the market, forgetting the production side. It’s as though she thinks men set the “price” for pussy – giggling. As well, she makes the absurd statement “since men will give the bodies away to anyone willing” – absolutely not true. Men are selective too – and in this she demonstrates the prevalence of female imperative in her mind perfectly. I’ve turned down many women in the early stages of their interest because I had none and on several occasions backed out after a kiss or two (mostly because my “she’s a nutter” alarm was ringing) – and in those instances the women went crazy and flew into a rage every time. But when the same thing happens to me with women who kissed and then didn’t want to go farther I was always cool about it. Who is it who views having sex as a gift then? Lol, Rollo is a genius for welcoming these commenters, I see it now. There is no better lesson in game than such comments.

  • livingtree2013

    You miss the point. Again.

    Women have only learned to treat sex as a commodity because of so very many centuries of being reinforced to believe it. As sunshinemary pointed out, its even written into the bible for crying out loud! Who wrote those damn scriptures? Women??? Don’t be ridiculous. Go look at the header of her blog – “Pro- family and patriarchy.” That’s right, her entire framework is patriarchy!

    Let me try this one more time:

    You behave like attracting the opposite sex is the most important thing that there is in the whole sphere of human experience. It motivates everything you do, or so you repeatedly tell us, which women actually think is ridiculous. You must have learned by now that there are EXTREMELY few women who would agree with this fundamental premise of human experience. YOU create that value. MEN do. YOU are the demand side.

    And, since you treat women who give it away for free like the scum of the earth, I guess the smart thing for women to do is learn to take you for your money.
    I can’t even count the number of posts I’ve seen on this site that suggest that if women were ECONOMICALLY smarter, they’d know how to commodify their bodies better. Thus, the supply side is automatically created.

    We’d like to present this years model of “Hottie x279″.

    And in the next breath, you resent being exploited by the supplier. Christ, the irony of it.

    And whats more, its so obvious that I can hardly even comprehend that you’ve framed a whole ridiculously unsupported theory about women inventing religion and controlling the world with sex so they can avoid working for a living, all to avoid acknowledging your part in creating the framework that has guided our culture for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. The culture that women, almost universally, DETEST. Even the ones that reluctantly play the part of supplier hate themselves for doing it.

    It is seriously unbelievable to me that you don’t understand this. Although, I suppose in a rather complicated way, you have. You know, at least, that the Alpha men are no longer in the “consumer” position. They are the supply side in the economic equation, and women are the “consumer”.

  • Glenn

    @ LT – Giggling… Please demonstrate gynocentrism more for us, it’s at least as valuable as Rollo’s posts. Hint – sex isn’t the most important thing to men. In fact, Rollo’s message is that the “best” game is one in which women and sex aren’t that important to us. That you miss all of this is so typical of a woman – even many who’ve supposedly taken the Red Pill. Alison Tienan (Typhon Blue) is similarly disposed even though she’s an MRA who is part of AVFM. As for Betas and lower SMV men, the only reason they are so angry is because women have priced them out of the market and they cannot get their desires/needs met on any kind of reasonable terms – not because sex is the most important aspect of their lives. That you miss all that says reams about you and your gynocentric worldview.

  • jf12

    @Glenn, correct. Sex is only the most important thing to a man if he’s not getting any. Having gotten sex, then the most important thing is a sandwich.

  • jf12

    It continues to simultaneously amaze me and bore me that AWALT. All women think it perfectly fine that the majority of undesired men should consent willingly to do without sex and to never try.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @LT, you do realize there’s a reason prostitution is called ‘the oldest profession’ right?

  • livingtree2013

    Glenn, I TOTALLY understand what Rollo said here. And I agree with most (though not all) of what he says, in almost (but not all) of his articles. I understand it far better than many of his readers do, evidently. If sex isn’t all that important to men, then please explain to me why it is that nearly every comment on this article (and almost all of his others too) indicate exactly the opposite?

    How would I possibly get the idea that sex isn’t the central focus of your lives from anything said in the comment feed???

    I entirely agree with you Glenn, the best game IS the one where getting sex isn’t the central focus of your lives. THAT was what I said in my first post, in case you didn’t get that out of it. Everyone benefits from it. I genuinely hope it works out for you. Meditation might help.

    Y’know look, I get it, you guys are angry because you paid for what you assumed was a product/service (your wife/girlfriend’s body), and the least she could do is make it worth the price you paid for it. I get that, it must suck that she doesn’t want to follow up on her part of the bargain. But as the saying goes, “buyer beware”. From what I read here, most of you guys have not been very aware of what you’ve been investing in, and I’m sorry for whatever it is you’ve experienced. There are, unfortunately, a lot of women willing to exploit men for this weakness. And for that, I apologize, and I’m glad that you’re taking steps to correct that injustice. I just hope that it hasn’t destroyed your humanity in the process.

    And yes, it may be a gynocentric view that I hold, but I think that should be fairly obvious why: I am a female. I can’t pretend to be a man very well. I’ve tried, and found only limited success. It is difficult for me to present my thoughts from a male perspective because I’ve never been one. Just like very few men can understand what its like to be a woman. Funny thing, that. Men and women don’t understand each other at all except in the economic context. Its really quite tragic.

    Anyway, the essence of it is, this sex-driven social system isn’t benefiting anyone, its really messed up. I’m just trying to tell you that from a woman’s perspective. I don’t quite follow why you all get so defensive about it.

    I would also genuinely appreciate it if you would please, please tell us what it is that you DO value more than sex, because I don’t think many women know what it is.

    I’m asking this in all seriousness, because I have searched here, and elsewhere, for the answer, I have searched long and hard and, well, if there is one, it is so well concealed that its gotten lost in the fucked up fray of the world. Maybe I’m looking too hard… but nonetheless, I think we’d all benefit if it was communicated a little more forthrightly.

    Maybe you don’t want us to know, and that’s cool, I guess, but don’t be surprised or upset when we don’t cooperate. Not too many women I know are psychic either.

  • jf12

    Ah, the ol’ “What’s really on your minds?” ploy. “Let’s just talk, shall we?” A True Man will dole out his True Feelings only after the sex, as a reward for her being a good girl.

  • livingtree2013

    Just read the comments section in Rollo’s post about V-day (which I loathe as well). Interspersed with the comments about how V-day is about buying the right gift that will get you the sex you want, is this precious gem:

    “Tomorrow I’m going to treat myself to a hike. It’s beautiful out here in the winter. I recently finished building my own guitar too, and I might spend a good portion of the day playing it. I also have a lot of repair work to do on some other guitars and I’ll get to that. I also recently built a really nice computer, but I’m using a couple really old parts. I might also treat myself to a nice new monitor and some new speakers.
    I’m also going to try to pat myself on the back for how much I’ve learned, how many skills I’ve developed, and spend some time focusing on all the things in my life that I’m grateful for. My friend’s birthday is also coming up, and since I’m splurging anyway, I bought him a really nice pair of shoes that I hope will help with his knee problems.
    For me, the Red Pill is more about inner peace than anything else; seeing the emptiness in the feminized idea of relationships that we’re spoon-fed from day one. If you want to pursue women, it lets you do so realistically with no idealized expectations. And if you don’t want to pursue women, it reassures you that there’s no party you’re missing out on.”

    Well said, friend. Priorities.

    No, JF12, it is not about “talking about your feelings” ad nauseam. Its grotesque to see anyone do that, male or female. It is merely about setting boundaries, and not letting them get crossed. When they do get crossed, don’t be shy about saying so. Male or female. If I had one wish it would be that both sexes would be better at this, because we are both really quite bad at it.

  • Glenn

    @ LT – Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Don’t be offended if I observe that your hamster is peddling pretty hard though. Men are human beings and we have all kinds of needs/desires/interests. Maslow’s hierarchy provides some insight here. Sex is a constant desire, and inchoate/reptile brain in nature and can become the most important thing to us in a given moment, but in no way is a man’s life run utterly by his sexual desire. You don’t see us intensely focused on appearance in the way women are, yes? Also, the difficulty most of us have in convincing our brothers in a sense emanates from most men’s belief that there has to be more to relating to women than sex. that they hate seeing it reduced to “game”. Go back to your belief that a man will sleep with any woman based on access – that is so far from correct, yet it’s commonly said about men. We are constantly told such things by women our gynocentric society, but that doesn’t make it so.

    As for seeing the “social system” as gone haywire or trying to speak from the opposite sex’s perspective, I’m not interested in that. I’m interested in personal happiness and effectiveness and while I’ve only recently become game aware, after a year of MGTOW Red Pill digestion, it’s making me much happier. I get much more clearly how women see men and the dynamics between the sexes (it applies to my daughter, sisters and every woman quite well, actually) which is a huge improvement for me. I’m not out the “change” things, and I think that those who think they can are deluding themselves. Human society is so huge and at the effect of so many bio and cultural factors that to believe we can “think” our way to a better state is, to my thinking, a conceit of epic proportions. In a way, that mindset is at the root of every social planners dilemma. I don’t care about all that – I just want to be happy. And fucking a woman from time to time is part of me being happy, in addition to not being befuddled by women in all contexts of life.

    You seem to believe we can renegotiate all this, which strikes me as ludicrous.

  • jf12

    Re: women’s essential narcissism. Perel gives good head discussions.

    http://www.estherperel.com/male-sexuality-vs-female-sexuality/

    Male sexuality in itself is no gift to the female, but the male’s response to her sexuality is his gift to her. An important and not subtle distinction, merely one more level up in the mirror chamber.

  • LostSailor

    @LT How would I possibly get the idea that sex isn’t the central focus of your lives from anything said in the comment feed???

    Gee, men making comments about women, sex, and relationships on a blog devoted to men talking about women, sex, and relationships. How strange it that?

    Anyway, the essence of it is, this sex-driven social system isn’t benefiting anyone, its really messed up. I’m just trying to tell you that from a woman’s perspective.

    Don’t blame us. Feminism unleashed the sexual revolution and gave us this “sex-driven social system” (actually, it’s not all that sex-driven, but you seem focused on that), so take it up with your sisters. We’re just dealing as best we can with the environment we find ourselves in. You ladies made your bed and now you don’t enjoy laying in it? Not my problem. And trying to get men to change attitudes and behavior for your benefit and their detriment isn’t a very compelling argument.

    I would also genuinely appreciate it if you would please, please tell us what it is that you DO value more than sex

    A really good piss after a long night of drinking.

    Maybe you don’t want us to know, and that’s cool, I guess, but don’t be surprised or upset when we don’t cooperate.

    Yeah, it’s a super secret and you don’t have the decoder ring. You could try using logic, reason, and clear thinking, but I’m not holding my breath. The thing is, that many of you ladies are actually cooperating (well, at least with our agenda) just fine with the men who are clued-in….

  • Rollo Tomassi

    At J4G we were discussing validational sex vs transactional sex. I pointed out it was really primate alpha sex vs beta sex. In alpha sex, the female gladly services the male, and she gladly pays him (bananas and grooming). In beta sex, the female ungratefully requires servicing from the male, and demands payment from him (bananas and grooming).

    It should also be noted that when a female primate does engage in a transactional sex exchange with a Beta male, it’s during the down cycle of her menstruation (point of lowest potential fertility). As with female primates (including humans), when she is in the proliferative phase of her menstrual cycle (just pre-ovulation, and the highest potential fertility) her biochemistry predisposes her to seek out the sexual attentions of more Alpha (masculinized) ‘good genes’ males.

    As we’ve discussed in length on this blog, Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks is the behavioral manifestation of feminine hypergamy and the dualistic nature of women’s sexual strategy as prompted by female biology. So to accuse men of being complicit in the commodification of women’s sexuality is more than a bit disingenuous. From an evolutionary / adaptive species-survival standpoint, women’s sexuality is nothing if not pragmatic and often opportunistic.

    I may write a full post on this.

  • livingtree2013

    No of course you don’t intensely focus on the nitpicky details of a woman’s appearance Glenn, because you don’t need to. Women are marketing the commodity to you as the consumer. You are just the beneficiaries of the work required to maintain your interest.

    I’ve heard endlessly from men who say that they just like natural-looking women who aren’t materially obsessed, except the evidence is quite to the contrary. Sex is an extremely competitive industry. The women who invest all that effort into looking hot are the ones with the largest customer base!

    Any woman who says she dresses to impress other women is a flat out liar. For women, being hot pays the bills way better than brains, character or personality do. Especially these days in the age of the overly sexualized pop-tart/supermodel/trophy wife/objectification – we learn young what we need to do to earn maximum social value, and it isn’t being a decent person. It is being “bangable.”

    Re-read the content of Rollo’s article in this light, he himself is actually writing about this very thing (though from an ego-flattering and very androcentric perspective of course!). Think about it. Why would a woman stop putting so much effort into looking hot after marriage? Because she’s foolishly hoping that you actually love her.

    Letting her guard down, being “natural,” and withholding IS a shit-test, its a test to find out if you pursued her in marriage because she had sexual value only. And I’m more confident than ever that most of your relationships have failed because you showed your women in so many different ways that you did.

    I’m not saying its “right,” and I’m sure that more often than not it is compounded by women’s own insecurities. I’m just saying that it sucks. It bothers me TO MY CORE that women invest so much of their potential into offering themselves in service for something that they don’t morally stand behind, when there is sooooo much in life that is so much more important. It makes me cry a little inside.

    And no I don’t believe we should renegotiate the desire for occasional sex amidst all the other desires of life. That’s not at all what I intend or propose. And plus, I know that getting occasional sex is clearly not all that hard to do these days. Women want sex too, just not negotiated sex. Not sex with someone who makes us feel like its our duty or contractual obligation to have sex with them, or that it is our only function in life, and most definitely not with someone who wants pity sex. I hope that you understand how emotionally draining that is. It takes all the fun out of it.

    And that is exactly where you’re wrong JF12, male sexuality (or it could be) a gift to the female – a reciprocal gift. We’d probably prefer it if more men viewed THEMSELVES as valuable, honestly. But to do so, male sexuality has to be much less common in order to have any value. I am telling you the gods-honest truth – your pitiful compadres are ruining this for you. Men who are decent and good are being run out of the market by the millions of less-worthy men who are giving it away for nothing. Most women are sick to death by 20 of the sheer volume of men who would happily stick their dicks in them without even finding out so much as their first name.

    But again, the attention is an addiction. I’m sure that you already know this: as soon as you start withdrawing from us, the most sexually insecure women will panic and throw themselves at you. This should be a sign for you as to who exactly the quality women are.

  • livingtree2013

    Oh god, not the evo-psych bullshit again, Rollo. Why do you always revert back to that crap anytime I show up? You write such great articles, and then this nonsense? I know you only say it because I fundamentally disagree with your apparent reason for saying such bright things, you’re just trying to provoke me to anger.

    Women’s sexuality is pragmatic and opportunistic? Yes, very. Only by supposed necessity and lack of apparently profitable alternatives. And without profit, we do not seem to have the willpower to make it different – social deviance is very difficult, and comes at a heavy cost.

    “So to accuse men of being complicit in the commodification of women’s sexuality is more than a bit disingenuous.” Please don’t try to play the victim, its really unbecoming, and I think your readership is ill-served by that demeanor. Women did not artificially create the market.

    We are all complicit, Rollo. Supply and demand.

  • LostSailor

    @ DyingTree:

    Any woman who says she dresses to impress other women is a flat out liar.

    Of course she is, because a woman would never say that. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t still true, because it is.

    For women, being hot pays the bills way better than brains, character or personality do.

    So you’re saying that women do view sex as purely a transactional thing. Good to know. Of course, you’re also wrong here. Maybe for purely mercenary women like yourself being hot trumps all other character or personality traits, but for the rest of the world, and for most men, being hot is only a start and will only get you so far, like pumped-and-dumped. Which is fine, sex being purely transactional in nature.

    Why would a woman stop putting so much effort into looking hot after marriage? Because she’s foolishly hoping that you actually love her.

    I can see you have little experience with actual relationships, let alone marriage. Because this is nearly 100% wrong. A woman doesn’t let herself go after marriage because she’s “testing” her husband’s love (and if that were the case, I’d say kick her to the curb immediately, because that’s not a race to the bottom that any man is going to win). No, wives let themselves go because they think they can, since they’ve already gotten what they wanted…and because husbands allow it to happen.

    And I’m more confident than ever that most of your relationships have failed because you showed your women in so many different ways that you did.

    Don’t be so confident, because you have no idea what you’re talking about and you know nothing about the relationships of any man on this board.

    But you’re faulty opinions and posts are fodder for amusement…

  • jf12

    Re: “We’d probably prefer it if more men viewed THEMSELVES as valuable, honestly.” “Except for all you creeps. You creeps stay away.”

  • Glenn

    @LostSailor – Indeed on LT’s “failed relationships” comment. She occasionally makes an interesting observation but always reveals herself to be mired in gynocentric arrogance and hostility. Just today I’ve learned that I only love women for sex and that I’ll sleep with any woman who will let me.

    @LT – Do you get that saying such things is denigrating and obnoxious? Should I call you a stupid c**t in return? I’m not angry at you so I won’t but you’ve done the same thing to every man on this board and yet you think you have something to “teach” us?

    I’ve told before and I’ll tell you again. I don’t come here to hear from women – I’ve had your views of the world shoved down my throat my whole life. I’m not interested. I’m done. I spent far too long listening to you and your sisters and all it gave me was pain and suffering and confusion. Stopping taking most of what women say seriously has been the best decision I’ve ever made in my life. It’s like being reborn into a world that makes sense – finally. Better late than ever. But please, continue to demonstrate gynocentrism and the female imperative for us, it’s an object lesson for me, and likely for many other men here as well. Thanks :-)

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @LT, I appreciate your being so enamored with me and what I write, but your unwillingness to accept even the most simple, provable facts about human biology and its influence on human psychology and sociology will always make your understanding incomplete.

    Everything I’ve ever written with regards to inter-gender dynamics finds its roots in these underpinnings, so your indignation about them combined with your lack of any real counter argument are rather telling.

  • livingtree2013

    @LostSailor:

    “Don’t be so confident, because you have no idea what you’re talking about and you know nothing about the relationships of any man on this board.”

    No? Don’t be so confident of that, I’m pretty perceptive (even though you may not like what I have to say).

    Remember that line from Batman Begins: “Its not who you are underneath; it’s what you do that defines you.” I’m not saying this to shoot you down. I’m saying it because you guys do a lot of talking here (especially when you get all provoked after I show up to stir the pot!)… and though you may think you’re being all stoic and protective like a man should, acting the part of the broken-hearted nice guy… I see many tells. The “nice guy” mantle is often just concealing a catastrophically broken person who has really, very little idea what he wants besides validation.

    And I said nothing about sex being a transaction. I’m saying that selling out is the easiest way to earn a living. Pure economics. It breaks my heart, but that’s the world we made. That free market capitalism we all are forced to worship? Well, not surprisingly it has found its way into the bedroom. Did feminism change that? Possibly. But is that a bad thing? Sex doesn’t have to come with the complications of marriage, its usually better when it doesn’t. Is it even a new thing? Not as far as my understanding of history goes. Status and opportunism has always been a driver for social animals. Is it different? Not particularly, since the dawn of mass media, sex has been treated as a commodity – just one that is employed differently than it is today. It should not come as a surprise to anyone that human sexuality has become a marketplace.

    But I mean, who cares really, we all want sex (at our own voluntary frequency of course!). We all enjoy looking at hot bodies, but not all of us have them. We are all competing in the free market for what it is that we want, and to get the best, we need to be our best. That sometimes can suck for people who aren’t really that great of human beings. Those people have to accept less than the best.

    That may include you, because unfortunately, that applies to the startling majority of men and women, and part of the reason for that is… just like you said LostSailor… we have accepted the worst in each other by our complicity and low self-esteem.

    I just don’t understand why human sexuality carries with it so much moral judgement though, its as common as dirt. Many of the manosphere guys seem pretty hostile about the direction things have gone since feminism, and that is why I’m confused. It conveys like you resent women’s sexual liberation because you haven’t reaped the rewards it promised.

    Do you have the will to make sex back into being a sacred duty, a marital gift, or do you think that all you should have to do for it is pay the bill? Or not that even. Is it an entitlement? Is it just for fun, or is it something you prefer to do out of love? I get some pretty conflicting messages about it here, and from men in general. Could you guys maybe wear a certain color shirt or something to tell us which of those guys you are before we date you? Dating men is like a psychological fucking minefield.

  • livingtree2013

    Glenn, do you not get the paradox in what you just wrote?

    “Just today I’ve learned that I only love women for sex and that I’ll sleep with any woman who will let me.”

    “@LT – Do you get that saying such things is denigrating and obnoxious?”

    Really? Because you just confirmed everything I said. It is an unfortunate reality that the naked truth is often taken as an insult. Its the human condition: we build all sorts of constructs to avoid facing ourselves. But really Glenn, have sex. Lots. I approve. Just please, would you stop judging the women who do the same? There are lots of people who just aren’t all that interested in the bitter complexities of marriage, including women. Its a good thing. Its evolution. I’m not judging you for it. I just don’t think that marriage is a good place for a person who thinks this way – the primary reason I have avoided it like the plague myself.

    If you take my comments as being obnoxious and denigrating, well I do apologize for not being more sensitive (appeasing people’s feelings is not my strong suit, as I’ve mentioned before. I’m INTP, and I work in construction. I always assume that people are more durable than they really are. Sorry again).

    I suspect that you have had more than a few women talk down to you in your years, and you’re just learning now to stand up for yourself, so good for you, as you should. But part of standing up for yourself is learning to accept who you are, and not having to feel defensive about it. I hope you find this peace.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    ,..since the dawn of mass media, sex has been treated as a commodity – just one that is employed differently than it is today. It should not come as a surprise to anyone that human sexuality has become a marketplace.

    Apparently you have some catching up to do with regard to the commodification of sex – this should help:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_prostitution

    I’m no historian, but I think 18th century B.C. was before the dawn of mass media. Unless you consider ancient art depicting prostitution mass media…

  • Glenn

    @LT Look at that hamster go!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 5,334 other followers

%d bloggers like this: