The Gift

logic

After reposting my seminal essay on Vagintine’s day last week an interesting topic arose. One of my assertions in the V-Day post was that a man ought never to buy his wife or girlfriend lingerie as a gift for Valentine’sDay, and, by extension, any other occasion, special or otherwise. As I considered the input from both Sunshinemary as well as commenter ‘Lingerie’ (odd for a male commenter, OK) I began to come to a better understanding of why I’ve always promoted this principle.

This is Lingerie’s take:

This is nuts:

“Note: Never buy a woman lingerie, she will never be happy with it. A woman has to do this on her own to “feel sexy”, make sure it fits her right, and it’s HER IDEA. When you buy it for her it’s contrived and it is overt and overt is often the kiss of death for a try-hard guy.”

Women in my home wear what they are commanded to wear. It’s not a decision left to them. In the beginning of a relationship I have to train them on proper apparel, which means taking them to the store and having them model garments for me so that I can show them what works and what doesn’t work, and why. After that, they know what clothing for themselves to buy for me so that I don’t have to go shopping with them.

This was Sunshinemary’s (albeit christianized) take:

LOL. Of course you should buy your wife lingerie. So what if she thinks it’s “really a gift for you”? Isn’t her body supposed to be a gift for you per 1 Corinthians 7:3-5? She should be happy you still want to see her in it.

In the interests of full disclosure, in the past, I have bought lingerie for both past girlfriends and Mrs. Tomassi; and I have learned my lesson. This is a lesson in genuine desire versus mitigated, obligated desire. If a woman doesn’t take the prerequisite effort on her own part to want to make herself more desirable and more sexy for you as your fuck-buddy, your girlfriend, your fiancé or your wife, you are not her first sexual or mental priority. It’s a simple as that.

Whether it’s the result of a prior ‘training regimen’ as in Lingerie’s case or the gift giving scenario Sunshinemary alludes to, the effect is the same – a genuine desire to please someone is always preferable to a coerced obligation to please them.

As I’ve stated before, a woman who want’s to fuck you will find a way to fuck you. If a woman needs to be ‘trained’ to be more sexual and less self-conscious than it takes for her to take the minimal effort to buy something to make herself look and feel more sexually appealing and less self-conscious to fuck you, then you’re dealing with a woman who (at least subconsciously) believes herself to be of a higher SMV status than yourself. In other words, if she has no desire to buy things, or prepare herself to be sexy for you, to entice you, to make your sexual experience with her more memorable than her prospective sexual competitors – you do not merit the optimization of her hypergamic interest, and her involvement with you is predicated upon something other than your genuine sexual appeal to her.

As I’ve elaborated before The Medium is the Message; when single women painstakingly prepare themselves primping and preening before a night out with her girlfriends to meet random guys – that medium is the message. When every look, every clothing option, every makeup and accessory selection is carefully considered to draw potential sexual attention to herself, the message is pretty clear – she’s making an effort to be more attractive for what she values as a reward. Women who are experiencing the hormonal changes associated with the proliferative phase of their menstrual cycle (just pre-ovulation) have a psychological predisposition to want to fuck the ‘good genes’ Alpha. This phase-condition also triggers shifts in female ornamentation; in other words, when women ovulate they dress to impress.

When a woman will put forth this concerted effort to achieve a socio-sexual reward, yet later fail to, or discontinues her previous efforts to, make the same effort to sustain your socio-sexual interests in her, that medium is also a message she’s broadcasting; she perceives your status (SMV) to be less valuable than the effort necessary to sustain your interest in her.

That isn’t to say every sexual instance you have should always be this side of professional porn, but it is to say that sexual spontaneity and her maintained effort to please you of her own volition are indicators of her perception of your sexual market value (SMV) as well as the biological dictates of her menstrual phase. In other words, (perceptual) Alphas get the ornamentation and enthusiasm of women who want to impress, Betas get the comfy, phone-it-in sex, after doing the convincing.

A Gift Must Be Given

Isn’t her body supposed to be a gift for you?

Yes, but a gift must be given, not taken by force or by due, else it’s not a gift anymore.

One principle I always suggest for Men spinning plates is that they make their attentions and interests in a woman a reward for that woman’s efforts and investments in him. From a PUA perspective this a flipping of the feminine script of qualifying for her rewards, but it’s a very important principle to understand and internalize on your own. Dread Game is founded on this principle, but it goes beyond just this utility – your merit, your attention and what it’s worth for a woman to invest herself in it will set the frame for any future relationship you have with her.

When that attention is given too liberally or a guy, as the result of his feminized conditioning, thinks women want full disclosure of feelings and a man gives his attention away without some kind of earning it dynamic on a woman’s part, his attentions become effectively worthless to her.

I’m prefacing with this because it’s important to recognize the value a Man’s attention has for women when you are assessing her real estimate of your personal value. Generally, women aren’t going to overtly give a man she’s involved with an honest assessment of his value to her. This is part of him Just Getting It and the unspoken understanding that he does get it, and on some level does understand what his value is to her. An Alpha doesn’t ask direct questions about his own status with women, he intrinsically understands it as reflected through women’s behavior around him.

However, women rarely disclose a Man’s impression on her – in fact the only time a woman is prompted to reveal ‘what she really thinks’ about a man is during or after a breakup. Rather, her continued assessment of him in a relationship (long or short term) is expressed in her attitudes, behaviors, physicality, ornamentation, and her willingness (or reservations) to want to please him.

I have a real tough time with the concept of a woman’s sexuality being a gift to give to a man. When a woman perceives a man’s SMV (or Alpha assessment) to be less than what her hypergamy could merit (realistically or not) for optimization, that is when the gifting-of-sex social convention becomes the dominant psychology for her. For a man who doesn’t merit it, or a Beta provider unused to the ‘reward’ of sex, this gifting becomes a situation of intermittent reinforcement of desired behavior (your continued Beta provisioning and comfort).

One, feminized, social indicator of this dynamic is a constant, male-psychological condition of self-deprecation. For example, I mentioned in last week’s post, most Valentines Day card’s messages from men to women is one of an unworthiness of her divine love, sex and patience with him. Essentially it’s a precondition of never meriting her intimacy. When this is a man’s operational psychology with respect to women, it only serves to perpetuate his qualifying for her gift and telegraphs his status of (at least mentally) being Beta. Men often ask me where the dynamic of pedestalization comes from and why it seems to be men’s default psychology with regard to women, its root is in this gift-to-merit social/psychological dependency.

Alpha Fucks & Beta Gifts

As with the woman in my illustration in Good Girls Do, Alpha men, or men that women preselect as possessing Alpha traits and attitudes, aren’t “given the gift’ of her sexuality, she simply has desired sex with him as opportunity and environment allow. The conditional reward, or sex-as-gift dynamic isn’t even a consideration, only sexual urgency and opportunism as buffered by the filters of her conscience, convictions or emotional barriers (or lack thereof). Alpha fucks isn’t a gift, it’s desired sex of opportunity and urgency.

I think it’s worth pointing out the obvious contrast this gift dynamic has with regards to the man who’s wife was provably more sexually adventurous in her past than she ever was with him for the duration of his marriage – Saving the Best. That post, and the 700+ comment thread that followed were cause for a lot of righteous indignation from men who’d also been on the receiving end of being sold one sexual personality, but later discovered his wife (previously or concurrently) had quite another.

As callous as this is going to sound, while I can understand feelings of betrayal at the duplicity, I also understand the mechanics behind women’s dualistic sexual strategy. The most common criticism of this husband was that he was a fool for ever having married a woman unwilling to give him her best sexually. He should’ve seen the red flags and avoided investing his life, and the life of a child, in a woman with sexual hangups,..with him.

It’s very easy to be an armchair life-coach after the fact, but I’m not sure most men realize what those red flags are when they see them. Most men, by way of a lifetime of feminine sensitivity training, take women at their word rather than see the message in her medium. They never have the opportunity to truly grasp the socio-sexual strategy women employ over the course of a lifetime to optimize hypergamy and Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks. And even after he’s been on the sharp end of that equation, most guys still don’t want to believe her medium was ever the message.

If a woman is reserved with you sexually, if her conditions for being sexual are based on a perceived reward or a gifting mentality, that is the message. If a woman needs convincing to be more sexual with you, that is the message. If a woman is sexually aggressive with you, if she exhibits behaviors that indicate she’s planning to create an environment that would facilitates your having sex, that is the message. Women who are into you won’t confuse you. Understand the mechanics of how her sexual strategy works, how the particulars of it are manifested in her words, attitudes and behaviors, and how to leverage it to your advantage or see the warning signs in it, and you will be better prepared to see those red flags before you invest yourself in a woman worth or not worth investing in.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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LostSailor
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@ DeadTree: No? Don’t be so confident of that, I’m pretty perceptive (even though you may not like what I have to say). I see very little evidence of “perception” on your part; you’re all over the map. Projection maybe. Broken-hearted nice guys? Catastrophically broken person. Little idea about what he wants? That’s not perception: that definitely projection and wish-fulfillment. Typical feminist and female-imperative bullshit. Anyone’s “liking” what you say is irrelevant; what you say is simply wrong. And I said nothing about sex being a transaction. Combined with extreme lack of self-awareness and reading comprehension. You directly equated being… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Ok thank you Rollo, you have yet again backed me up with more content that apty illustrates my point. Thus it is even more unsurprising, then, that women in the post-feminism-yet-still-commodified future have become confounded with their historically, culturally and religiously sanctioned inability to make their bodies into something other than a gift for men. So now, we have three choices: 1) we have the freedom to choose the “traditional” path, 2) the freedom to exploit the rules to our financial advantage, or 3) the freedom to dissociate ourselves from those archaic ideas that bind us socially. Most women in… Read more »

livingtree2013
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And Rollo, its not that I’m not willing to engage you on the horridly oversimplified, one-dimensional evo-psych theory of human interaction, its just that its only of scant relevance to the topic. You seem to haphazardly drop them in to the comments section to create a shiny thing to derail the conversation, like you think it’ll make me predictably freak out and put on a histrionics display for your buddies. Not gonna happen. I’m not that easy to manipulate.

Glenn
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@ Rollo – Could part of the problem be that LT and many others have so internalized this “social construction of everything” crap that they believe they can ‘think’ their way to any new state they desire for human relations and society? The entire Gender Studies crowd believes so. Yet evidence for the primacy of biology grows every day.

livingtree2013
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Oh yes, I’m well aware of it Rollo. My point, here and everywhere, is that options 1 and 2 do a disservice to us all – they are both created out of a scarcity mentality. It is not a desirable or stable mindset to be in, long term, and the only way it can be sustainable is if there are protections (ie. marriage without the option of divorce) to prevent loss. Insecurity. Possessiveness. We’ve gone through all this already. Yes, evolution, I say, because it is (or hopefully will be if we continue to work on our inner strength) a… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Point being, it is our clinging to outdated traditions which no longer serve us that makes us resist against personal transformation. If we behave the same way, forever, we cannot possibly change. Tradition and biology are kind of corollary in keeping us down as a civilization. Biology cannot genuinely be overcome, at least not with much ease, but tradition can be, and it is, by its very nature, the exact opposite of transformative. If we are, or were, actually benefited by our cultural traditions, I’d say heck, maybe this feminism thing was a total waste of time. But I just… Read more »

Richard
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when you have sex with a woman there are only a few alternatives in her mind… 1.) it’s a ONS and has no meaning …. 2,) it’s just casual which means either that she will later try to ramp it up into a full relationship though all manner of manipulative and emotional games OR her or you will end it…. or it will just fail off when she or you move on… in both 1.) and 2.) you are open to gossip, games, hassle, hearing all her BS. (even rockstars say they get fed up with listening to groupies drivel.)… Read more »

Jeremy
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@LostSailor

Any woman who says she dresses to impress other women is a flat out liar.

Of course she is, because a woman would never say that. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t still true, because it is.

I’ve actually seen women say this, out loud, to mixed company, on multiple occasions. Women like to convince themselves of nonsense in this regard.

@livingtree2013

I dunno, I could be totally wrong about this. smile

You should ponder that before you put wear-and-tear on your keyboard with little more to gain than the disdain of people who think.

Bachelorocles
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@LT

“Women have only learned to treat sex as a commodity because of so very many centuries of being reinforced to believe it.”

You’re neglecting evolution. Even female primates (no written language, no capitalism) trade sex in exchange for comfort, for association with alphas, for protection from alphas, for political advancement, for status (female primates will moan more loudly when mating with a high status male) and to obtain sperm from alphas — even the notoriously gynocentric female Bonobo exhibit these behaviors.

Glenn
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@WitheredUpandDriedOutTree – You are wasting your time here, yup. Except as a demonstration of gynocentric lunacy that is…

Glenn
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@ Richard – The problem with prostitution is that it’s not out of her desire, it’s a transaction. Casual sex with a woman who wants to have sex with you is totally different. I’ve had sex with prostitutes and while mechanically it can be fun on its own terms, it’s actually not a substitute for the real intimacy that comes with a women who desires you. Desire can’t be negotiated – and cash for sex is the most pure negotiation there is. It does have the benefit of being transparent but for me, it’s just not as satisfying.

Water Cannon Boy
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You may hold Dr. Phil in much regard, but he was correct about arguing with a right-fighter.

Water Cannon Boy
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-May not hold- meant to say

trackback

[…] Rollo’s recent post is about not buying lingerie for a girl, as she should take it upon herself to express her level of […]

xsplat
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It’s true that you can’t negotiate or demand desire, however it’s also not true. Just as if you force a smile you will feel happier, if you force a girl into the exterior situations of displaying shared love, her brain will look at what she’s doing and interpret it as a sign of an internal emotion. So you can and should enforce outward signs of devotion from a girl, such as telling her what to wear and even what to say. “Say I love you Daddy! Say it!” Silence. Slap!! “Ow! I love you Daddy!” You have to really be… Read more »

jf12
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Re: “Do you have the will to make sex back into being a sacred duty, a marital gift” is a question strictly for women. When women were liberated, the current sexual marketplace is what women created. The majority of men do not get to choose, ever. I believe it is only the fact that undesired men have only recently belatedly, in the past years or decade, attempted to game up themselves in response to the existing market, that has caused women to react negatively. “Yes we want to sleep with desirable men freely, but we don’t want you creeps learning… Read more »

gregg
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The basic question is – WHO holds the power. It is NOT SEX. Men give women so much power over their own life, happiness, ego, that they are simply destined to be slaves and victims. They derive such unhealthy accomplishment from their abitlity to be recognized and admired by women….that they are destined to loose. If it weren´t for this, we all would be using escorts just for sex and living our lives happily by our own terms. It is clerly observed that this is not the case. and it has never been so. The best advice that could be… Read more »

Glenn
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@ Gregg – You have the paradigm all wrong. This is not a PUA site – this is about intersexual dynamics. The fact is that “game” as discussed here is about men valuing themselves more and women less. It’s the antithesis of running one’s life around women. You don’t see articles on “text game” or “day game” here, right? However, what is also acknowledged is that sex and relationships with women are important for men so Rollo gives game advice from the perspective of how men can optimize their interactions and relationships with women. How is that becoming a slave?… Read more »

gregg
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@Richard It is NOT the sex. If it was the sex, all men would be paing the pros. Instead of this they are FUCKING the SAME, worn out, old bitch for 20 years, while they endure constant nagging, demands, continue feeding her and sacrifice their very lives for her. They are even bullshitting themselves that …”their wife has still the body of 20 years old, she is still hot” while it is clear that 99 percent of young women beat their wife every fucking time in terms of attractivity, energy, kindness…everything. Silly souls of men an their stupidity, this is… Read more »

gregg
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@glenn

“The fact is that “game” as discussed here is about men valuing themselves more and women less. It’s the antithesis of running one’s life around women.”

Your endless, incurrable obsession about women, this is the message. Women are very simple, yet we have those 200 blogs – just in this site, about the same. What the FUCK are you still repeatedly discussing here?

Sex? NO FUCKING WAY. The stupidity of men. No reason to say anything else.

Glenn
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@ Gregg – You are barely coherent, you do get that, yes? I get the sense that English isn’t your first language – is that it? Or are you just out of your mind?

jf12
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@Gregg “[Men] derive such unhealthy accomplishment from their abitlity to be recognized and admired by women….that they are destined to loose.”
This is what game is designed to WIN at: producing the healthy abundance mentality so that recognition and admiration by any one woman is no longer such a big thing. And it’s not at all a bad thing that women enjoy game. That fact actually helps game succeed.

livingtree2013
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I just got a really good idea for a novel… Gregg, fed up with being expected to play the BS skirt-chasing game, dares to be A Man and states an opinion different from the others. Glenn, loyal devotee, trained to defend the “game brotherhood” by humiliating all dissenters, insults him. A battle of wits ensues. Glenn assumes by Gregg’s silence that his superior tactics won the battle, that Gregg will soon be back in conformance, worshipping the cock and digging for pussy, in short order. Subtle praise follows from the brotherhood’s ringleader. Gregg goes on to live his life quite… Read more »

Badpainter
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“But lets not stop there, why pay anything at all if the end result is simply sexual release, right?” That’s the critical distinction; sex + emotion, just sex or just sexual release. Achieving just sexual release only requires imagination. Anyone can do it. Sex on the other hand work. Time and money to secure access on the SMP, or time spent at labor to gain money to buy access. There isn’t a lot of difference in the investments. I’d say for the guys who can’t achieve the “just sex” option without a lot of effort, frustration, failure, rejection and expense… Read more »

Glenn
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@ LT – Have you lubricated the bearings on your hamster wheel? They must be smoking at this point. As for me, women are less important and mysterious to me than ever – you can’t have an opinion on that as you don’t know me. You seem to think that I’m obsessed with women because I post here occasionally. This is the only blog I comment on of this type. I don’t spend much time on this subject otherwise. My focus is on my life, my happiness, creating abundance and happiness again after shaking off the delusions our gynocentric society… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Hey, here’s a little support for the awesome theory of evo-psych! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2090226/When-men-war-blame-sex-drive-Males-evolved-aggressive-outsiders.html Love the comments section, especially the one that says men have a limbic need to fight off “outsiders” because women can’t be trusted, if women were loyal, men would have no need to fight. As if to imply that women being sexual makes men angry. This is incredibly pitiful, weak and irresponsible, and appears to be quite in line with what is routinely said on this forum, and others in the manosphere. The problem I have with the whole evo-psych theory is that falling back upon it to… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Glenn, thank goodness!

I’m glad you have worked your way out of that mythology, because women aren’t mysterious at all. At ALL. Women think men who think women are mysterious are really quite daft, and they often disrespect you guys for it.

Yes, some women contrive to be more mysterious than they are so to keep you coming back for more and questioning yourself. We call them “crazy”. “Crazy” is the female equivalent of game. It is definitely a ploy that works though, dudes love the crazy chicks. Go google “why are men attracted to crazy women”.

livingtree2013
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And Glenn, not that its any of your business, but you couldn’t be more wrong about my lovelife, its been very fulfilling and educational. And I don’t have a problem with men. I have a problem with character weakness. A big, big problem with that. If you think its limited to men, you obviously aren’t paying much attention to what I’ve said here.

But that’s not surprising, you invalidated me for being female, we saw that in your first comment back to me, and pretty much every comment since.

Glenn
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@ LT – More vomit, yawn…Get some professional help.

jf12
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@Badpainter
a thought for the day for my bro. The only thing worth our aspiration is air. Just. Plain. Air.

Badpainter
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jf12,

Have you been listening to The Hollies again?

jf12
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Re: “A ONS is not in any way emotional intimacy” True, but I’m certain it can *feel* like instant intimacy. Since any kind of intimacy results, I suppose, from sequences of shared vulnerabilities [that have not yet resulted in death or other relationship disruptions, an oddly necessary caveat], the hopefully exquisite vulnerabilities of sex ought to feel like instant exquisite intimacy. That’s one reason I can’t imagine myself having sex outside a relationship, since the sex would create, for me anyway, the feeling of a relationship: she would be my girl. And if I wasn’t being vulnerable sexually, I wouldn’t… Read more »

jf12
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@Badpainter, an outside-the-web barbershop discussion about aspiring to love reminded me of you [how romantic!]. And yes the Hollies’ song is what made the connection [that, and thinking about choking, since one old gent in the other girl’s chair sounded like he was death rattling]. Would trying to breath love feel like trying to breathe water, or more like trying to breathe vacuum?

Badpainter
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“Would trying to breath love feel like trying to breathe water, or more like trying to breathe vacuum?”

Perhaps it’s more like huffing paint or sniffing model cement; temporary euphoria followed by a sever headache, over do it and suffer permanent brain damage, or even death.

Bachelorocles
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@ gregg “Silly souls of men an their stupidity, this is the reason of this senseless slavery to women.” I am the first to blame men for the male-female dynamics in our society. But when I see some poor bastard dominated by his wife, kissing her ass, working his ass off and shortening his life to please her, I feel bad for the guy. He thinks he’s making her happy by being a beta provider pleaser. He doesn’t know he’s turning her off. I have good buddies (some high on the alpha scale) caught in that miserable circle of hell.… Read more »

jf12
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The Gift of The Big One. Although women in LTR have better orgasms, stronger and more per sexual event, they refuse to have sex more frequently than women in STR. Seriously. Women are intrinsically ungrateful sexually. We all know it, and there are lots of studies, even though it seems counterintuitive. Men just kind of roll their eyes and say “Ah, well, women and cause-and-effect don’t go together.” An observation I’ve shared before merits repeating here. It’s been a lot more noticeable in the years (and years) since menopause, but with all (both) of the women that I’ve had sex… Read more »

Jeremy
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@jf12 …but with all (both) of the women that I’ve had sex with, if she ends the night with a big bang, then she is much more likely to be all smug and cocky and contentious the next day, almost (!) as if she wanted to ensure she wouldn’t be having sex. Whereas if her fireworks got off the ground but failed to explode, then the next day she is much more likely to be all lovey-dovey and sandwich-making and wanting to have more sex. Which, again, makes a kind of horrifying sense, but it’s kind of like women try… Read more »

UrbanMeyer
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These articles are great but the comments section is gold. I have gone from envying guys who are married or about to get married to genuine concern and/or pity.

gregg
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@rollo “We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality. Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.” I completely agree – male kneels before his Lord, represented by Women and his emotions of the slave. He actually has to persuade yourself that there is no escape from this reality. He is no different from worms and HE KNOWS and openly admits it. This is from Roissy I think, isn´t… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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if12…but with all (both) of the women that I’ve had sex with, if she ends the night with a big bang, then she is much more likely to be all smug and cocky and contentious the next day,… Peg a girl in the butt, with a stream of water or slapping the booty, and she likes it, she’ll at first act as if she didn’t. But will later display more mischievous behavior as a way of getting you do something. Besides, if you made the fireworks go off, that’s a method of control and power that women don’t want to… Read more »

gregg
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@ livingtree “You want to have sex with a woman, she doesn’t want you. Oh my GOD!! The worst thing EVER! You can’t get what you want, you can’t put your P in a V!!!! Depression! Unworthiness!! Rage!!! Oh wait, no, I need to campaign, to design inventive ways to make women be devoted to me so I can put this obsession behind me finally, I can put p in v whenever I want, and I can go on with living. But we’d best be keeping all these tricks to ourselves, or other males will get wind of them and… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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And what have we learned today, children?
Living Tree, avowedly speaking on behalf of all women (not only everywhere, but throughout history, apparently), fears price discovery in a free market.

Tilikum
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Rollo,

Living Tree’s brand of feminism is really just a fetish, and its likely she cant help herself.

When dealing with an individual with a very narrow range of behaviors, the inability to change this behavior and impart greater control on a situation via said behavior change merely causes them to amplify what isnt working.

its probably kindest to her to just ban her.

after all, managing female solipsism and their feral natures is in fact closer to animal husbandry than anything else.

Glenn
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@Tilikum – No, please don’t ban LivingTree! I learn at least as much from the fembots here as anyone else. She is an interesting version of it. What I find most amusing is her “campaign” of trying change the nature of human intersexual relationships. This necessitates her rejection of biologically driven, evo psych arguments completely so she can “believe” that the whole subject is negotiable. I made a comment towards Rollo earlier in the thread that he didn’t respond to but I would love to hear his commentary on. The entire Gender Studies and second wave and forward feminist movement… Read more »

Jeremy
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Guys, I gave LT every courtesy, every ounce of patience I had in attempting to get her to see things from a perspective other than her own. I was rewarded with little more than re-interpretation of what I said to her own FI frame. She is a troll. She has absolutely no interest in understanding anything that anyone says on this blog. She arrogantly presumes she has understanding where she does not. She appeals to authority, sometimes her own. She begs the question in just about every comment. And her writing style leads me to believe that she is terrified… Read more »

Sao Feng
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why do the beta males keep replying to Lying Tree’s dried up ovaries?

Sao Feng
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How do we tell whether a poster is a beta male? when he spends more than 1 minute responding to a washed up has been Lying Tree.

Gryphius
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@Victor King @Andrews

Islam has a terrible track record when it comes to freedom and scientific progress the last eighthundred years. People who value those things less than a society where women are submissive, have strange priorities that smell of desperation.

Bachelorocles
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@ UrbanMeyer They deserve our sympathy. I know of one or two who’ve made it work, but these guys are naturally alpha – their wives still want them, they aren’t dominated, and they know how to thwart her never-ending shit tests and will to dominate him into submission. @ Sao Feng “why do the beta males keep replying to Lying Tree’s dried up ovaries?” Let them learn they will be unable to convince her with facts, data, evidence, and rational argument. It’s like using facts and reason to convince a guy his politics are wrong or a religious guy that… Read more »

AKA
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AKA
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Married life isn’t as grim as all that. I have been married a decade longer than Roillo has been. I get laid any time I want and it’s really not a struggle. The only drama my household has concerns our kids, not between my wife and me. I am in no way “alpha”. I am not handsome or built. I am average height. All the PUA skills I have have come from the same blogs that everyone here reads, Athol Kay, Roissy, Rollo. I am no smarter than any of the other well written commenters on this blog. If I… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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Tam the Bam
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Glenn: “.. based on the idea of the “social construction” of gender and sexual identity. This idea essentially posits that we are lumps of undifferentiated clay wrt to gender and sexual orientation when we are born and then all of this stuff is just imposed upon us ..” In the same way, they also cleave to the mystical notion that intelligence and health also have no basis in biology. Mere repressive stereotyping by The Man. Wish yourself fitter (in the Darwinian sense as well), and lo! so it shall come to pass. It’s the only hope they have. No wonder… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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Tam the Bam

It’s the only hope they have. No wonder that indications to the contrary drive them hogwild, as we have seen.

Note that evidence to the contrary only upsets such people when it exposes a weakness that is desirable to deny. When it exposes a strength, then it’s worthy of research. When evidence might indicate a less desirable trait, suddenly equality is the way of the world.

No feminist ever denied that women are the more beautiful of the two halves of the human race, but they will swallow tires before they admit that women are weaker.

Tam the Bam
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Tam the Bam
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Jeremy: “a weakness that is desirable to deny” I do have a tiny violin throbbing out the merest twinge of sympathy (not empathy) when “people unlike myself” protest the characterization of some innate trait as “weakness”. Far from it. We didn’t get where we are today by entraining “weakness” in our genetic makeup [ /Reggie Perrin ]. Millions, literally unimaginable millions of years have gone into this project (NB; I didn’t say “immeasurable”. I used to have to try to ‘imagine’ deep time professionally, a very long while ago, before I was promoted to being a proletarian. I found it… Read more »

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ Sao Leng “How do we tell whether a poster is a beta male?” They run around comment sections telling other commenters they are betas, lol. Talk about trolling. My commentary isn’t for LT, it’s to engage with the men here. I enjoy it a lot and get so much out of it. I find that it’s hard to maintain this POV at times, so coming here is like a recharge for the pull of habituated thinking and the world I walk into that is soaked with gynocentrism. It’s not that I agree with everything that is said here by… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
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I was casually wandering through these comments and the following caught my eye and gave me the giggles:

@LT – Dating men is like a psychological fucking minefield.

Projection much?

Especially amusing considering point #2 from here:

http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/how-to-be-in-top-1-of-women.html

1. Stay in shape
2. Drop the psychoses you think are defensive mechanisms or “cute” ways to entertain yourself and be a mature adult.
3. Support yourself
4. Cook

You do those four SIMPLE things and you will be in the top 1% of women.

Sao Feng
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Sao Feng
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@Bachelorocles

The only positions Lying Tree have vacant for the “boys” (in her own words):

(a) Beta orbiter
(b) emotional tampon

It isn’t so much as the facts or truth in the replies to her sagging butt. It is the time spent by beta males replying to her that gets her off.

Sao Feng
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Sao Feng
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@Gleen

It does not drive her crazy.

No decent man, even a beta male, would take a 2nd look at Lying Tree in real life. Time spent: <1 second

Strangely, typing out paragraphs of junk in response to her: Time spent: more than 5 minutes.

I'll pass. Enjoy qualifying yourself to old women.

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ SF – I didn’t write out 5 paragraphs to her – or did you miss that? I’m speaking to the men here. I eliminated her from this conversation very early in the thread – or did you not bother to read back that far? Nothing I’ve said or done here is about “qualifying” with her. But since you’ve chosen to frame it that way, would you say Rollo is doing the same? Fyi, I don’t respond to a thing LT says, I just let her know that she’s an example for us and dismiss her. That you insist on… Read more »

Sao Feng
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Sao Feng
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@Gleen

Ok.

@Non beta males
There is an article on Heartiste on the ways women tool men. One of them is called “Let’s you and him fight”.

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ SF – I’ve about had it with your inanity. You are starting a fight with me for some reason – LT has nothing to do with this and we aren’t fighting over LT. You are acting like a bitch and now I’ll treat like one. I wonder, do you realize that you are adding nothing substantive to this dialog? Your pathetically fragile ego apparently needs to be aggrandized by running around trolling on game sites to show us how alpha you are – which is so fucking un-alpha to begin with that it would be funny if you weren’t… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Tam the Bam So why aren’t they investigating why we are as we are, rather than positing vapid assertions as to How We Ought To Be? That strikes me as most .. illogical, Jim, I mean Jez sorry. It should .. ought LOL .. to be as fascinating to them, as it is to me, if their interest is not feigned. Why the rush to denial? It obviously worked, and very well, for a long time. So what’s wrong with (trait/behavior X) now? Why so out of fashion, all of a sudden? At the moment I can only guess, the… Read more »

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ Jeremy – I’m just not so sure about this. Automation/mechanization has been underway long before the last 50 years. Sewing machines, coal – many, many other advances were made that saved women time and they didn’t go nutz. I also think you haven’t cared for young children full time – I have for some stints here and there. Two pre-school kids and a house – that’s 80 hours a week of endless feeding, cleaning, playing with, supervising, carting around. Even with a dishwasher and washing machine – so sorry, I don’t buy it. Also, men in the information age… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Glenn, Well, one, I said 200 years, not 50. Feminism actually began with the revolt against male spaces such as saloons post civil-war. That was about 50 years after the infancy of industrialization. Hypergamy and the the push to influence society via FI exist with or without a cultural role. The cultural role was what helped keep it in check because it created a method to self-value besides social ladders and marrying-up. When you devalue such accomplishments you enhance the importance of hypergamy in any individual. When you describe the difficulties in raising kids you’re actually missing the point. Children… Read more »

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ Jeremy – The term feminism was actually first coined by Fourier, the French philosopher who also co-developed the first ideas of Utopian socialism in the early 19th century, so I’m not sure what historical references you are making. Your point was that somehow “industrialization” had taken the hard work out of parenting and hence the respect for it or something – I still don’t think you have a clue how much work child rearing is. Also, there were many collective actions by women against men who didn’t toe the line of provider/protector before the U.S. post-civil war period. Check… Read more »

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[…] Other perspectives on this form of human stupidity can be found here, here and here. […]

Elspeth
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Elspeth
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I tried to get through the comments here because it’s been a while since I last read a thread here, but good grief Rollo. Your commenters write dissertations! Short version of my thoughts: 1) Husband has never bought me lingerie when I wasn’t present and we’ve been married 20 years. 2) The whole primate thing leaves me dead cold, since I believe humans were made in the image of the Almighty. 3) You’re right that if a wife wants to make herself available to her husband, she’ll do it whole-heartedly without extraordinary effort needed from him. What’s in us comes… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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LyingTree
Oh god, not the evo-psych bullshit again, Rollo. Why do you always revert back to that crap anytime I show up?

There is a very simple solution to your problem…

livingtree2013
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Thanks for the link to the study Rollo, although it is not particularly eye-opening. Nothing has changed here, not in this study, and certainly not on this forum. You are continuing the exact same topic that has been discussed for ages. The tide merely changes – masculinity comes into favor, and out of favor, into favor, out of favor, into favor, out of favor… and so on, as it has throughout history. But overall, there is little doubt that the cultural value of masculinity has shaped everything about who we are as a species. The need for status is what… Read more »

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ LT – But nobody cares what you think – why don’t you get that?

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ LT – Oh yeah, and one more thing. Anti-social behavior is also often a sign of psychological pathology. Your reflexive need to correct us here is best seen as an artifact of your disturbed psyche. The screed above is evidence of hostility, not insight. Your ideas are absurd, not interesting. Get that, really, for you own good.

livingtree2013
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Glenn. This isn’t correcting. This is questioning. Its what intelligent people do. Intelligent people consider without accepting. Its what you all did, presumably, before getting to this place in your lives – you questioned your reality. What happened to the questioning mind that brought you to this point? To me, you just look like a religious convert who’s found a replacement ideology to be devoted to. Don’t you get why there’s so much opposition to you from non-believers? Its because the theory has so many holes in it, but you push it like we’re going to hell for not believing.… Read more »

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ LT – I don’t represent the manosphere and I’m no fledgling philosopher – I’m just some guy who’s eyes have been opened. You, on the other hand, may be one of the least self-aware people I’ve encountered in a very long time. Let me try and reiterate a few things for you so you might “get it”. 1. You are hostile and that alone makes you quite easy to ignore. 2. At least half of what you say is errant nonsense and babble to me. It’s like shit you made up in your head that you think makes some… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Tam ye Bam
. We didn’t get where we are today by entraining “weakness” in our genetic makeup [ /Reggie Perrin ].

CJ? You’re wanted back at the survivalist commune, packing Sunshine Dessert cartons, now. Right now!

Anonymous Reader
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Anonymous Reader
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Sao Feng @Non beta males There is an article on Heartiste on the ways women tool men. One of them is called “Let’s you and him fight”. Yes, it is a part of the Female Imperative. This was displayed most recently in Maidan square in Kiev, in the form of cups of tea carried by women into the cold to men standing behind barricades. Another form of it can be seen at sunshinemary’s blog, in the posting where she stamps her foot and demands that the men of her “christian” tribe go out “someday” and kill all the PUA’s and… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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LyingTree
It is pretty much accepted in all of the social sciences (not just in gender studies!), that ‘masculinity’ is an ancient and well established social construct.

Argumentum ad populum is still a logical fallacy, no matter how many unscientific, “peer reviewed by my friends” bogus studies are produced.

Testosterone is a fact. “Social science” is more of an oxymoron…

LostSailor
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LostSailor
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Indeed, whether or not masculinity is, or should be, prized or upheld or preserved, or if it has any social value at all, is a matter of discussion on many feminist forums, in addition to being the central subject matter of almost every social science – including evolutionary psychology!

That is, quite literally, comedy gold! A complete lie (the “central subject matter”), but comedy gold, nonetheless…

SirNemesis
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SirNemesis
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@ LT2013 Thanks for the link to the study Rollo, although it is not particularly eye-opening. Nothing has changed here, not in this study, and certainly not on this forum. You are continuing the exact same topic that has been discussed for ages. The tide merely changes – masculinity comes into favor, and out of favor, into favor, out of favor, into favor, out of favor… and so on, as it has throughout history. But overall, there is little doubt that the cultural value of masculinity has shaped everything about who we are as a species. The need for status… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Anonymous Reader
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Nemesis, she’s just trolling the site. She’s a disruptive attention whore, any time the conversation can be steered away from the reality of women and to her it’s a win.

Unless, of course, the conversation becomes all about what a disruptive, lying, attention whoring flame-troll she is. Those who troll with stinky bait do not like to have their habits discussed.

Anyway, LyingTree2013 has decided to go troll at Dalrock’s now.

AlphaCockmaster
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AlphaCockmaster
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A woman loses all her sexual value after age 25 whereas alpha dudes GAIN sexual and economic value starting around age 30 and it keeps going up up UP.
So we alphas, we can get hawt young wimmin even when we are 95 or older.
(flex)

Lac
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Lac
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I don’t know about marriage because I have never been married. I hope sex goes the same way. I do it because I like him, he likes me, it feels good, then we like each other even more and so on. I would not marry a man if I thought the sexual aspect of the relationship was going to turn out to be a bummer! Author, I have to say your analysis is frightening.

kaizersoze71
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@Glenn stopped listening to women….smart man.

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FM
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FM
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RM,

You constantly confuse who’s with whose. For example, “I think it’s worth pointing out the obvious contrast this gift dynamic has with regards to the man who’s wife was provably more sexually adventurous in her past than she . . .” that should be “the man WHOSE wife, etc.” Who’s denotes “who is”; whose is possessive. Sorry, it detracts from your thoughts to have this grammatical error.

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[…] the scripture of Tomassi, there are two types of sex: transactional and validational. A girl fucks you either as a tool to […]

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