20 Questions

 

RT

Back in May of this year I was asked to do a second installment of the red pill Reddit forum’s AMA (“ask me anything”) and I’m not really sure too many of my core readers were aware of it. Unless you follow me on Twitter you probably didn’t know I’ve done two now.

After I’d closed out that discussion thread it reminded me of another ‘interview’ I was asked to participate in at my home forum of SoSuave back in December of last year. I hate to say, but I never really got around to posting my replies back to the original thread, however I did save the questions as a post draft so I could do the interview some justice later.

Well here we are. Next week will mark the three year anniversary of my launching Rational Male, and as always I’ll be doing another year’s retrospective post as well as another Best of Rational Male – Year Three links post.

I make it a policy not to go into too much personal detail on Rational Male unless the topic is something I can illustrate better with a personal story. I’ve never wanted the Rational Male to about me, but rather the experiences and input of my readers. However, after almost three years and one book later, I figure I’ll open up once and publish these question I was asked back in December with the hope that maybe something I answer will give someone some new insight themselves.

 

 

1) What brought you to SoSuave and how did you find the site?

Unlike a lot of SoSuave guys I actually found the forum because someone suggested to me that I might be able to reach more guys who needed help there.

Most guys go searching for answers about how they can get back with an ex, or why their last LTR imploded on them because they went too Beta or didn’t understand the basics of red pill awareness. I found SoSuave through the old Ladder Theory site as I was toying with the idea of psychology as a second major when I was at university. A lot of people don’t know the SoSuave of today is actually the second version of the forum. My understanding is that Alan, the forum admin and owner, had to expand to a larger server and forum architecture due to the site being so overwhelmingly popular.

There really wasn’t a manosphere or what we term Red Pill back then, just Mystery Method, PUArtistry, FastSeduction, RSD and the collected experiences of guys just posting their Field Reports and hitting upon commonalities of those experiences.

Mystery had made some conjectures with regards to the psychology involved in pickup and I just happened to come across it while I was studying behavioral psychology and personality studies. I also found that making the connection between the two, at least publicly amongst teachers and classmates, was a very contentious prospect. I got called a misogynist a lot back then just for proposing the germs of the ideas that have built the foundation of what the Rational Male and the red pill have become now.

2) Any special reason for your SoSuave username, why you chose it?

It was actually a hold-over from my old online persona from some other forums and it stuck. If you watch the movie L.A. Confidential you’ll get the meaning of it. It actually seems more fitting now with the book’s release. Rollo Tomassi was the generic name given to a nameless criminal who got away with his crime.

I also understand that Rollo was the name of an infamous viking. I found this interesting since we both descend from Danish heritage.

3) What’s the best and or worst advice you’ve ever received in regards to chicks?

JBY, Just Be Yourself is definitely the worst advice because it’s so endemic of people who are ignorant of Game. It’s such a passive, easy dismissal of a guy wanting to know why what he’s been doing isn’t getting him the results he wants, but at the same time it illustrates the belief and trust of the person saying ‘just be yourself’ in the conditioning that brought them to it.

It’s a very uncomfortable revelation for anyone to embrace in thinking they should need to change and/or improve themselves in order to get the results that they want. The foundational mistruth of blue pill conditioning is that a nebulous ‘being of oneself’ should be enough for anyone (or ‘the right ONE‘) to be attracted to, and discourages any real self-analysis or improvement. ONEitis and Just Be Yourself tend to be codependents and, in tandem, really fuck up a lot of guys lives.

Best advice is more difficult, but for me personally it was “believe what a woman does, not what she says.” For most red pill guys this seems kind of remedial now because it’s a foundation for really unplugging I covered almost 11 years ago, but it can’t be stressed enough.

This basic truth is what inspired The Medium IS the Message and as stupid-simple a truism as it is, it’s often the most difficult part of Game-awareness that blue pill guys first struggle with. They struggle because their earliest feminized conditioning has always taught them that women are fundamentally the equal, rational agents that men are and they will relate to boys / men in full confidence and reason (just as they would expect from men) if they themselves don’t play games with them and communicate in full confidence and full disclosure.

It’s believe what she says and ignore, forgive or get over your judgementalism for what she does because she’s (supposed to be) being equitably honest, forthright, and knows exactly why she does what she does in spite of herself.

I don’t believe men and women are equals of each other in an egalitarian sense – there are simply too many empirically provable differences in both sex’s psychology and biology to draw any other conclusion; and as such each sex has it’s own imperatives and strategies for achieving them.

I do however believe that the sexes evolved to be complementary to each other, one sex’s strengths compensating for the other’s weaknesses. It’s this overreaching social impetus (idealistic humanism and feminine social primacy) that encourages us to believe we are independent, autonomous and self-sufficient entities (founded in feminine solipsism), equal in biology and psychological potential that imbalances that mutually beneficial complementariness.

4) Have you ever posted in or lurked in other seduction forums/blogs etc?

I occasionally post on Dalrock’s, Just 4 Guys, Chateau Heartiste, Roosh’s forum, The Red Pill reddit, Return of Kings and a few others. I sometimes track back to forums my articles get linked to, but I honestly don’t have time to respond to everything I read.

5) How many chicks have you slept with?

My N count is public record; more than 40, less than 50. I’m not trying to be ambiguous, it’s just that when I try to make an accurate count I just don’t remember some names – mostly just places partners and experiences.

Just for some red pill perspective, most of that experience was between the ages of 17 and 28 in the late late 80’s to mid 90’s when there was no formal Game, manosphere, internet, cell phones, Tinder, etc. – getting laid was all analog and mostly instinctual.

It’s kind of funny to think that my N count is well above average, but I expect in comparison to many of the single, active, members of the manosphere / PUA community, 40 individual sex partners might be so low as to disqualify me from being taken seriously with regards to Game.

By the time I was 21-22 I’d figured out how to get laid with some relative predictability. Mostly because I was a fairly good looking, semi-professional musician playing in Hollywood with a bit of social proof and a practiced ability to pick out women who’d be into me.

I should also mention that of those 40+, four were long term relationships, including my wife.

This’ll sound facetious, but I’ve never thought of sex as being “validating” or ego-affirming. I honestly think a lot of that expectation comes from a feminized conditioning about “how sex should be” for men. I was, and still kind of am, more into sex as experience. It’s always been something fun to enjoy with a woman for me, not some meaningful act of cosmic significance. I’ve had sex with women I loved and women I didn’t, some were memorable, some were…meh. Even in my bluest of blue pill days my ‘validation’ came from other sources, not sex.

6) What was your worst and best experience with a chick? (wife, girlfriend or not)

The worst was the 4 years I spent with a BPD girlfriend. I did a post on it. I was in the pit of blue pill hell and pushed to the brink. I didn’t know what borderline personality disorder was back then, in fact I don’t think the DSM even recognized the complex as a psychological disorder in the early 90s.

My best experience is hard to put a finger on. It’s interesting to think about definitively bad experiences, but hard to put a “best” title on a good one. All of my best experiences would have to be with Mrs. Tomassi, our wedding, our daughter’s birth, the fact that even in her late 40s she’s still in fitness caliber shape and we genuinely enjoy each other.

Pre-marriage, I had my share of rock-club women, and when it was on, it was really ‘on’. I can think of at least 4 very memorable women, one was a fuck-buddy who was easily the most sexually hungry (and not just with me I came to find out).

I know the trope is that older women are supposed to be better in the sack than younger women – this was never my experience at all. In fact the younger the girl, the easier time I had bedding her, and the more adventurous a lover she usually was. I think even marginal social proof has a greater impression on younger women and they’re more eager. The older women I’ve been with have always been much more self-conscious.

7) Have you ever gotten friendzoned by a chick and if so were you able to get out of it?

Of course, particularly in my teenage years. In my early 20s I had enough female interest that I’d simply blow off the women I learned weren’t worth the investment. There was one exception though; a girl I knew from a community college who “didn’t date rocker guys or guys in bands.”

In hindsight I know she was leaning into her Epiphany Phase (maybe a bit early) and was trying to do things “the right way” after getting after it with various guys in her early 20s.

I was kind of surprised at getting a LJBF since it hadn’t happened to me for years by then, but all it took was right place, right time, a little social proof and the competition anxiety of other interested women, and I got the lay – which, by comparison at the time was kind of underwhelming. Still, I went back to pursuing her afterwards, got re-LJBF’d and I moved on to other plates.

8) Have you ever had a chick or chicks offering their pussy to you on a platter and you blew them off for whatever reason? And why? (i.e. they offered the pussy on a platter to you at a bar in conversation or even at your or their place and you blew them off.)

Yes, but mostly due to logistics rather than from spite or wanting to up the urgency with a girl as most guys think denying women sex will do. Most often it was because I had a better offer somewhere else or I was just plain tired. When it’s happened to me in the past the girl was a) on the cusp of my maximum weight limit, or b) there was something a bit off about her personally – as in she didn’t seem right mentally.

I once left a DTF girl in a hot tub because I just couldn’t bring myself to hitting that big of a girl (but, in her defense, I have what I think are exceptionally high physical standards for women)

9) How did you handle chicks who’ve flaked?

It depends on what time of life we’re talking about. In my younger, hungrier days, I tolerated flaking because I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know the medium was the message, and I thought it was caused by something I fucked up, which I guess it was. Later I simply didn’t care because I had other plates going at the time, but I found that the more options I had going (or had the potential to get going) the less women were likely to flake.

I go into it in Plate Theory, but there are a lot of subliminal behavioral cues a guy gives off (mostly unknowingly) when he’s seeing another (or more) woman that other women pick up on.

Mannerisms, attitude, vernacular, a guy with options just acts different than a guy with none. It’s like women pick up on the subcommunication of a guy who’s less invested in them and associate it with their sexual competition of women who might be interested in him.

10) Most plates you’ve spun at one time?

Actively (meaning I double shifted at the time) 4. Inactively 7 when I was about 23.

11) How did you handle a time of having no plates?

Again, that’s really a question of which time.

Between the ages of 17 and 21, I wouldn’t even consider seeing more than whatever girlfriend I had ONEitis for at the time. However, even before I met my wife, I had some irons in the fire, but when I didn’t I don’t think I worried too much about it since I knew I was probably just one party or gig or business event away from meeting some new talent.

I know a lot of guys get weird or depressed about a dry spell, but I was always kind of optimistic about having no plates because I enjoyed having the freedom to get with whomever, and I looked forward to meeting new women.

12) Dress style you use for going out on the town/ social functions?

I work in the liquor and casino industry so it depends on the event and what time of year it is. Nowadays if I’m out it’s usually because I’m at a promo, a new brand launch or some casino special event I’m involved with.

Lets just say that ‘business casual’ is neither. I either go loose or I go tight, but it really depends on the venue. Loose is jeans, some nice slip-ons, a stylish tailored button down, maybe a casual sport coat. If I’m tight it means I’m somewhere upscale or I’m with the people I work with, so I fall back on well tailored suits.

When you get older, style is much different than when you’re younger. What you wear at 22 is not what you wear at 42; there’s ways for men to capitalize on a maturity in style that women expect from men with the refinement that comes from maturity.

I’m probably not the best guy to hit up about style though – I think I spend way too much on what I could probably get cheaper. Christian McQueen is a better guy to ask about style.

13) Are you currently working out/exercising?

Always. I’m at the gym at 5-5:30am five days of the week, and I haven’t gone more than taking one week off from that schedule for about 15 years now. That may seem like dedication, but it’s really about convenience; early morning is the only time my schedule permits me to work out, and honestly I prefer working out in an empty gym.

For about the last 3 years I’ve been doing kind of a modified Max OT workout. I got into straight Max OT when I lived in Florida after a trainer friend suggested it to me.

I’m not overly huge to begin with, but once I started lifting heavier (and I mean heavy all the time) and my intensity went up, it helped me push past a plateau naturally. I put on a solid 8 lbs. of muscle inside of 4 months. Heh, I had to buy new pants because my thighs got bigger.

It’s probably not for everyone, I just know my body responded well to it. You do have to be careful of injury though, and not just in the lifts. I fucked up my back twice in about 2 years just getting cocky pulling heavier dumbbells off the rack. Just because your focused muscle group can do the lift doesn’t mean your other supporting muscles can. You gotta be careful.

14) For meeting chicks in the past which way was most successful in your point of view and have you tried all venues? Day, Social circle, Online social media/ Online dating, clubs, vacation, through family, work or whatever else.

Again, I’m probably not the best guy to ask about contemporary pickup Game. Back when I was inadvertently spinning plates, my Game at the time consisted of playing in various semi-pro bands and hooking up after a gig. I suppose that would amount to Night or Club Game now, but it was the environment I was in and familiar with. Most of my Game relied on social proof, DHV and looking the part. There was a definite ‘character role’ women liked that I played very well then.

It got to a point where I could get a girl to buy me a drink which I’d nurse for a bit while I talked her up. If I got the right IOIs from her I’d simply say something like “hey, our set’s coming up, watch my drink till I get back will ya?” If she was still there at the bar with my glass after an hour the girl was always DTF.

I should add that, later in life I became very apt at social circle Game, but again, that’s always going to be dependent on social proof, preselection and demonstrating higher value to get a third party endorsement of your SMV.

I know the popular presumption is that if a guy walks into a club/party/social gathering with a ‘hot girl who’s his friend’ it sends some magic preselection vibe to all the other women at the gathering. I’ve never found that to be true. Not that I doubt it happens, but rather if I’m somewhere with a woman (friend) who’s SMV is 1-2 points above the most attractive woman at the event, other women tend to get catty or figure if I can score her why would she bother with me?

There’s a fine line between the benefits of preselection and women simple feeling outclassed by a sexual competitor.

15) Have you ever went full “No Contact”? (Not expecting “results” of getting a chick back but simply cutting all ties.)

Oh yes. I really had no choice but to go no contact with the BPD girl I’d been with in my 20’s, but she’s really the only woman I’ve ever made a conscious effort never to contact again.

For other’s I think no contact really came down to my indifference to the women I really had no more interest in after some event. Though I didn’t do it intentionally, I was spinning plates and had other options to exercise so I’d just become occupied with another woman making no contact just a matter of course.

As I put forth in Plate Theory, non-exclusivity and maintaining your options is your best insurance against ONEitis, which in turn makes for a healthier frame of monogamy for a man later if that’s what you choose to do. No contact is easy when you’re genuinely indifferent to the girl you’re going no contact on.

16) How is married life going for you so far?

18 years on July 20th. I’ve only ever written a couple of direct posts about my marriage, but that’s mostly due to my not wanting men to view it as some model to aspire to. I understand my circumstance aren’t what most guy’s are, personally, family or career-wise, but I don’t for a minute believe I married the elusive unicorn of a woman.

I love Mrs. Tomassi more than anything in this world, we’re a very good match, and red pill awareness has only accented that good match. And for the record, yes, Mrs. Tomassi occasionally reads what I write here and has read my book.

17) Have you read the full DJ Bible? Or some of it/none of it/ participated in it?

The old version yes. The new version not entirely, but I have several of my old essays included in it. I still think it’s a pretty valuable resource for guys new to the red pill.

18) Have you ever met up with or talked to any SoSuave posters offline?

Yes, when I lived in Florida there were about six guys from the forum I used to meet occasionally for sushi or at one of my vodka brands’ promos. Beyond that I do email and (very rarely) phone consults with people who request them depending on my availability and ability to help at any given time.

For the record, I never charge money for a consult.

19) Favorite So Suave posters or posters on your site other blogs etc?

Gawd, I don’t want to play favorites, but in no particular order off the top of my head I think Deti, Dalrock, Novaseeker, Donalgraeme, Good Luck Chuck, Deepdish, Stingray, Morpheus, Han Solo, Obsidian, Mark Minter, Yohami, YaReally, Jeremy, Earl (yes Earl), LiveFree and even the commenters I most emphatically disagree with, all give me something new to think about.

20) How’s feedback coming along for your book, The Rational Male?

Better than I ever imagined. It’s been a success in everything I hoped it would be in the regard that it’s reaching men and helping change their minds and lives. My intent was never to make a load of cash from it, but rather to make it as accessible as possible to have the greatest reach possible and it’s more than done this after only 9 months.

72 comments

  1. Another thing we have in common Rollo – we both have done/do Max OT !! (mind you it’s hard at our age)

    Probably a timely post where I can once again thank my guru for unplugging me. I can’t ever imagine going back to a blue pill existence. At age 42 EVERYTHING has improved since first reading all your RM posts which I enjoy immensely.

    I’ll be buying hard-copies of your book for myself, my son and a spare one that I can lend to those Men I feel I need to try and unplug.

    Keep up the brilliant work for all Mankind.

  2. It’s cool to hear about the man behind the work. It provides more context for why you say what you do.

    Is there an ETA on the next book you’ve been mentioning?

  3. I love #16!!!! So sweet! LOL so… my brother that really needed some game help has suddenly got game (and surprisingly, quite a few girls off and on – no relationship yet, but he really is kinda young). It’s not like I expect him to get married, I just thought he needed help understanding women. Anyway, he has turned into a massive alpha jerk. I can’t even stand him! What on earth?? Does that wear off? Or should I be worried? I know it sounds probably silly, but seriously omg he’s totally changed….

  4. “I was, and still kind of am, more into sex as experience. It’s always been something fun to enjoy with a woman for me, not some meaningful act of cosmic significance.”

    It took me a while to come around to this — in my blue pill days, I actually turned down quite a few girls because I didn’t believe in “cheap sex” …

    Off topic: As a few others have pointed out re Robin Williams, the manner of death looks suspiciously more like autoerotic asphyxiation rather than a typical suicide … first, he was not found “hanging” in the traditional sense but was rather in a seated position with the belt wedged between a closet door and door frame … also, it’s highly unusual for a coroner to give a live public statement on the matter prior to the conclusion of his actual investigation (full autopsy, results of toxicology tests, etc.) … in fact, the coroner went out of his way to note that Williams was “clothed” (but would not explicitly confirm that he was “fully clothed” when further questioned) … as for the several “acute superficial cuts” (acute meaning recent in coroner speak) found on Williams’ left wrist, those could have been simply made after the fact to buttress the impression of a suicide … admittedly, this scenario may seem a bit far-fetched but I still don’t think we’re getting the true story here …

  5. @gwadft re: brother.

    So, he found out how to do it, and implemented it correctly, and it’s working great. I don’t see the problem, for him.

  6. @Rollo re:14) preselection by hot girl.

    My empirical thesis is that a man’s preselection by a literally higher value woman (e.g. wife, or Sheryl Sandberg, or whoever) makes the other women interested in *her* instead of him. Her light makes him seem dim. But what seems to work in generating other women’s interest in *him*, every time, is his preselection by an easily dismissable slutty girl. I have no coherent rationalization at this time.

  7. @JF12

    Preselection also works when the your hot girl is absent.

    Ask the married guys traveling on business…..

  8. Off topic (is hypergamy ever off topic here?):
    http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-39117.html

    The boyfriend will probably never live that down. Christ, it really puts into perspective just how feral women can turn and even without a hint of guilt on how their partner might feel.

    This also reminds me of Rollo’s post on how the rise of technology will inevitably show us glimpses of a women’s id.

  9. That’s funny. I was also in L.A. in the same period. My experience was just a tad different than yours, however. I was a 25 year old virgin completely lost as to how to even initiate anything, let alone have sex. Although I knew that guys like you probably existed, had I known you at the time I would have likely gone bat-shit crazy with envy and self-disgust. By the way, I didn’t eventually have sex until I was 31, married my first, and she brutally divorced me a year later. Such are the wages of betahood……

    Although strangely, I’m married now and have two kids.

  10. Urban Camouflage

    That urban camouflage
    You choose to hide behind
    Is there to fool you
    So you will never find

    The truth about yourself
    A name that you implore
    Look close and you will see
    It’s just a gilded whore

    The glory she pretends
    Is only in your mind
    It’s just a thin disguise
    There to deceive the blind

    And her false promises
    Of ecstasy beguiled
    Cheats only the witless
    You know she is reviled

    Those useless dolts she lures
    Are all she’ll ever trap
    Only fools will fall
    For that frivolous crap

    And yet she made a choice
    To live a life of smut
    She knew they can’t resist
    The power of a slut

    Now as time goes forward
    She won’t be satisfied
    Only the fresh are sought
    Where evil’s gratified

    As her beauty’s waning
    And when her stars turn dim
    Then it will be too late
    To break her pact with him

    Because she can’t get back
    What she’s already sold
    While the devil took it
    To leave her growing old

  11. @Jf12 – I suppose so. It is working for him 🙂 He’s still in college and my parents forced him to live at home, so I think it could be just trying to assert himself and establish who he is. I’ve read some of Married Man’s Sex Life & I agree that you can’t be alpha all the time… I don’t know what others would say on that… my husband is more like Athol’s description of switching back and forth (but I don’t like to think of it that way)… he just is.

    LOL my brother though, is in completely different circumstances… and in completely different point in life.

  12. girlwithadragonflytattoo…

    you seem to care honestly about your brother. It is very important he development himself first physically and second intellectually. physical development affects intellectual development. we are first and foremost physical biological-chemical-electrical entities. hopefully he is healthy, exercising, eating healthy, getting adequate rest, etc. this is the foundation.

  13. @gwadft re: MMSL.

    I disagree that a man cannot be alpha all the time. The problem is that doing so will make monogamy a LOT more difficult. Roughly speaking, because that is the real way to speak about this, he will not be able to keep it in his pants because other women will be taking it out.

  14. “Alpha fucks / Beta Bucks”

    Verses

    “Porno slut queen pleasures penis / Wife dutifully cooks, cleans, transports kids to and from school.

    What is the difference?

  15. @Geore, the difference is opportunity. Almost all women can successfuly get AF when young, and it used to be the case that almost all women could bet on BB later, although I understand that has changed for the millenials.

    Approximately zero men get the opportunity for porno sluts pleasuring anything, and almost as few men get dutiful wives.

    See the difference now?: almost all women vs almost zero men.

  16. JF12

    I disagree.

    Most men have the opportunity for casual sex, “porno sluts” etc. it’s there for the indulgence for those who are not inhibited. Dutiful wives are plentiful, many girls will devote themselves to a man they perceive as strong and dependable enough to provide.

  17. This is a revealing interview on two fronts, first the content is excellent. But secondly the confidence and courage that cuts through in this. I like the fact that you offer counseling and don’t do it for money. The sincerity of this blog is what keeps me reading it.

    Finally, the BPD post also struck a chord with me. My now ex gf who displayed so many BPD qualities (minus the suicide and the cutting) shattered my confidence and turned what I thought I understood about game…upside down. In that world, she had me believing I was the worst guy in the world, my ego was shattered when she started up with some other dude, the semi-stalking that lead no where when I laid out my intentions…it’s to me inspirational to see someone as successful as you and know that you too also felt that same sting.

    Your write from experience and that is something that shines through. But the insights here are bold and changing the conversation in the “manosphere”.

  18. girlwithadragonflytattoo
    August 14th, 2014 at 8:24 am

    Anyway, he has turned into a massive alpha jerk. I can’t even stand him! What on earth?? Does that wear off?

    If I’m anything to judge by – not entirely. It may mellow some with age. Like say in his 60s.

  19. walawala
    August 15th, 2014 at 2:49 am

    What kept me sane in my experience with a BPD was lots of experience with other women. She would say, “You are….” and I could counter, “But my experience with other women…”

  20. The BPD was interesting – one side was “My hero! You are everything I dreamed of.” And the other, “”You have evil intent. You just want your way. And besides you are out to hurt me.”

    Never take a woman who was abused as a child for a LTR.

  21. @M. Simon “You just want your way…” Yes. I heard this repeatedly, then of course it was mixed in with lavish gifts and sex and dressing up and affection.

    Then I would get the text: “I’m in trouble…” this would be followed by one of the following:

    1) A kid in the class I was teaching claimed I boxed his ears but all I did was hold his ear so he could listen better.

    I calmed her down and offered her some guidance on how to tell her story. She said I never helped her.

    2) My mom wants to live in my apartment, can I live with you for a few months.

    I said She could live with me for some days but otherwise I worked and couldn’t. I didn’t care enough about her, she broke up with me by first announcing it on FB.

    3) This month when everyone is observing xyz, I always think of my dad who died during that month when I was small.

    This was a good excuse to otherwise not meet up or get me to feel bad for her.

    4) My rent went up and the apartment I’m moving into is too small for the furniture…I’m too stressed to meet.

    She then goes out the next night with another guy.

    This is not normal flakey girl shit-testing.

  22. Mr. Tomassi, if you’d forgive the off topic, I’d like to recommend you a book
    http://www.amazon.com/A-Secular-Age-Charles-Taylor/dp/0674026764/

    It concerns itself with much wider things than gender relations but there are many relevant discussions and the subject itself is directly touched upon in places. What the author does, among other, is describing the Matrix of the whole North-Atlantic modernity while putting it into context.

    An excerpt
    ——–
    I have several times used the term ‘social imaginary’ in the preceding pages. Perhaps the time has come to make a little clearer what is involved.

    What I’m trying to get at with this term is something much broader and deeper than the intellectual schemes people may entertain when they think about social reality in a disengaged mode. I am thinking rather of the ways in which they imagine their social existence, how they fit together with others, how things go on between them and their fellows, the expectations which are normally met, and the deeper normative notions and images which underlie these expectations.

    I want to speak of “social imaginary” here, rather than social theory, because there are important differences between the two. There are, in fact, several differences. I speak of “imaginary” (i) because I’m talking about the way ordinary people “imagine” their social surroundings, and this is often not expressed in theoretical terms, it is carried in images, stories, legends, etc. But it is also the case that (ii) theory is often the possession of a small minority, whereas what is interesting in the social imaginary is that it is shared by large groups of people, if not the whole society. Which leads to a third difference: (iii) the social imaginary is that common understanding which makes possible common practices, and a widely shared sense of legitimacy.

    Now this idealization was at the outset profoundly out of synch with the way things in fact ran, thus with the effective social imaginary on just about every level of society. Hierarchical complementarity was the principle on which people’s lives effectively operated, all the way from the kingdom, to the city, to the diocese, to the parish, to the clan and the family. We still have some lively sense of this disparity in the case of the family, because it is really only in our time that the older images of hierarchical complementarity between men and women are being comprehensively challenged. But this is a late stage on a “long march”, a process in which the modern idealization, advancing along the three axes I mentioned above, has connected up with and transformed our social imaginary on virtually every level, with revolutionary consequences.
    ——–

    The book is at times at odds with your views, though. For example, the taming of violent impulses in men is attributed to the idea of civility – itself part of a broader push for discipline in individuals – which originally appeared in the early modernity. Or, closer to our times, during the “evangelical” revival of the late 18th / early 19th centuries, the author notes the broad “demonization” of male qualities – cruel sports, gambling, sexual promiscuity and such – and the rise of the family man / good provider ideal, all due to the demands of emerging market-driven economy and democracy.

    There is also something on feminism, on sex obtaining the higher meaning as an integral aspect of self-fulfillment, on understanding of virtue as dominance of will over passion, on the culture of mutual display, and on many other not always readily apparent things that should nicely inform your analysis.

  23. @Jf12 “I disagree that a man cannot be alpha all the time. The problem is that doing so will make monogamy a LOT more difficult. Roughly speaking, because that is the real way to speak about this, he will not be able to keep it in his pants because other women will be taking it out.”

    LOL he does have women hitting on him… ALL the time! He’s gorgeously handsome… I always told him his value would just continue to go up as he ages… and it has (much to my pleasure/displeasure). lol It usually doesn’t bother me, but I’m pregnant right now so maybe the added female hormones make me extra possessive and silly. He was in training this week for his job (they do it once a year) and one of the female instructors was constantly calling him out in examples like “say we were married…” His guy friends gave him so much crap for that. I know I have nothing to worry about as far as him staying monogamous, but these women get to me!

  24. @George

    Dutiful wives are plentiful if you are living in 1950’s suburbia. All of my married friends (in their late 20’s and early 30’s) bring home the vast majority of the income, cook, and clean. Still their wives bemoan that they do not invest enough into the relationship.

    Secondly, I’m not sure you know what AFBB practically means. There is no world where a man could conceive a child with a “stud” of a woman, then take that child and have it raised by a homely wife because she offers better financial and emotional security.

    If such a world does exist, do tell, I am extremely interested.

  25. @gwadft re: Is marriage beta-izing?

    I reworded your question ever so slightly in order to give it a definite answer: yes. Very much definitely yes in all cases, with absolutely no no at all. I wish it were different. I wish women behaved properly so that they chose the beta-est man they could find early, and treated him as king and lord and made him more alpha to her as the years went by. But I firmly believe there has never been any such marriage ever in history, and 101% of all marriages in actuality work the opposite of how they should. It’s a shame.

    I watched a huge cluster of a couple hundred dragonflies hunting over a freshly mowed park lawn at lunch. They were cool. They tended to maintain about a foot distance from each other, even though they practically ran into each other every second.

    The more isolated ones moved slower and loopier, while the ones that got closer to each other moved zippier and zigzaggier. If more than a couple were interacting, they did a little vortex for a second, tending to be counterclockwise. There weren’t any linear currents; they seemed embarrassed to find themselves moving in parallel to a neighbor.

  26. I’m going to go rogue about JBY (just be yourself). This subject is more than just a two sided coin, it’s really two coins. Men have at least two personalities, their true nature which they use when alone or in the company of their male friends, and the one they wear around women (whether they want to fuck them or not). The way I speak during a poker game is not the way I speak around my mother. Almost all men are like this and we know it. Women are also like this and they know it. The difference is women have always known men are like this. The “red pill” movement is simply men discovering that women also have split identities when it comes to relationships.

    When women say JBY, they’re talking about the socially imprinted personality we use around women: that compliant, deferring, non-sexist, non-controversial, be-a-dear-and-open-this-pickle-jar-for-me personality. That personality is not you or yourself. To quote Liam Neeson in the film Kingdom of Heaven, “Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death.” When you’re yourself around women, your absolute true self, you’ll find life is very different. To me, this is what PUAs and alpha game are trying to mimic. If you were your true self at all times in front of women you wouldn’t need to be a PUA or work on “game.” God already gave you everything you need, you don’t need to do anything extra. Stop suppressing yourself and they’ll come to you. Even serial killers get marriage proposals, there’s certainly enough out there for you.

    When I was in my late 20s I worked in an art studio that was about a half dozen men and one woman. Our conversations were unedited male fare despite her presence. Topics would cover everything, and people drifted in and out of conversations depending on how busy they there were. One day they were talking about partner counts. I was asked for mine, had never thought about it previously, so I started recalling. After a few minutes I said, “About 35.” I’m average height, average looks, made average money at the time, was never a gym rat but was decently fit from playing some sports. There was nothing exceptional about me.

    The girl in the room snorted and chuckled, “35?”

    “Yeah… unless I’m forgetting some.”

    “I don’t believe that.”

    “Why, because I haven’t slept with you?” She exited the conversation.

    I had a late sex start at 21, so this was over about a seven year period. The number isn’t in bragging country, that’s not my intent. I’m just identifying that success came be had by really and truly being yourself. This was all pre-internet, pre-manosphere, pre-3Rs (Roosh, Roilly, Rollo), pre-Ace (he needs to be read, at 80-Proof Oinomancy). The difference in those days is that I wasn’t conscious of what I was doing. I had no idea what drove success. I had no one else’s experiences to compare mine to. For me the primary wasn’t getting a girl into bed (though yes, I wanted to), the primary was having an interesting conversation with them. And just being myself made for many interesting conversations. Women don’t expect you to talk about the Battle of Kursk or imply certain murderers deserved to be strung up by their thumbs with piano wire, left to the mercy of the victim’s family. They don’t expect you to go searching for which topics which will piss them off or upset them… then proceed to push their buttons to see how much it takes to get a reaction. Some would immediately get all worked up into a lather, and others would offer a wry smile knowing full well what I was doing. In hindsight I guess this was a form of reverse shit-testing, weeding out the impulsive and flighty from the serene and secure. If they ever said something stupid, I’d make fun of them in the same way I would a guy. If they said something intelligent or insightful, I’d salute them. I was just being myself. These conversations would end in one of four ways:

    1) she left in a huff, angry with me
    2) she left, bored or indifferent
    3) she left laughing, having enjoyed herself
    4) she didn’t leave

    No matter which outcome, I always enjoyed myself. I never had to change a thing about me to find my pleasures, nor should I have to. If you bury your true self for her, you’ve lost out on your own experience. This means having to bury yourself forever, or slowly reveal your true self over time with the hopes she accepts the real you. You only have so many minutes on this planet, don’t waste such valuable time. You’re the author to your own play, write the lead character to suit you, not the audience.

  27. ” ‘Alpha fucks / Beta Bucks’

    Versus

    ‘Porno slut queen pleasures penis / Wife dutifully cooks, cleans, transports kids to and from school.’

    What is the difference?”
    .

    One difference is this:

    1) Very few men can optimize both ends of the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks spectrum, to the level desired by many women, no matter how hard they try.

    2) Almost all women could fulfill both parts of “Porno slut queen pleasures penis / Wife dutifully cooks, cleans, transports kids to and from school”, to the satisfaction (or more likely the delirious happiness) of almost all men, if they wanted to, and did their best, eagerly and enthusiastically.

    But women tend to reserve this for men who can satisfy (1), or they do the applicable parts for their Alpha Fucks (while they can hold on to them).

  28. Wanderer

    Your experience is very different from mine. Perhaps because my friends are all in their 40s to 60s. Possibly, a more severe deterioration of masculine expression has occurred during the last generation or two than I am aware of. If so, it is very unfortunate. Younger men do not have to allow it, although they must think so…..

  29. I envision a post by Kate saying readers will be disillusioned seeing Rollo doesn’t wear a cape after all.

  30. @Jf12 – the dragonflies seem to be acting a little strange this year – I’ve seen the intriguing swarms too! Its amazing… they are such different creatures. I swear I had one come up to me and look at me, and then fly away… but the clusters are really interesting to watch. 🙂 Glad I’m not the only one.

    @Kate – OMG thank you! That makes so much sense, the Bull, Bear, and Wolf alphas. And he definitely fits the Wolf alpha – I know I really am lucky. Thank you for the link.

    It also made me realize my brother (at least for now) is fitting in the Bull alpha… which makes sense because I’ve seen that before – my Uncle perfectly fits that – he was never able to remain faithful to a woman, and now… he’s close to 70, has lost all his good looks, and has been lonely (but would never admit it) for years now. He can still get girlfriends (I have NO idea how) but mostly he’s alone on holidays and lonely. His adult children hate him – because he was an awful father and really very selfish. I didn’t realize I was doing that typical female thing when I warned my brother that he’d end up like our Uncle… but isn’t it kind of true?? I’ve seen it play out.

  31. Rollo, I first came to SoSuave and noticed your style of giving advice was literally like giving medicine. Cold, logical, methodical. No feelings were involved, but it made sense. You were already around years before I was, and I read a lot of the knowledge you left behind there, which if we considered a separate entity, could be a blog in its own right. I think it is the hallmark of a wise person who can dispense wisdom just as it is. Without biases, without leaving out inconvenient truths, without euphemisms, without delving into emotional outbursts, but just the cold logic that allows a listener to do as he pleases.

    I have no idea if you are Christian or not but I respect you sometimes more than parts of the Christian manosphere. They would give advice on the premise that a certain interaction SHOULD be like this or that. But you give advice on how things ARE. I remember when SSM had her blog up she would continually argue that a woman should submit to her man whether she is alpha or not. That is the ideal case. She SHOULD according to the values of the Bible. But the truth is different. Fact is even a Christian woman wants an alpha dude as a husband who inspires lust in her. Most of the women in the Christian manosphere “coincidentally” married the man when he wasn’t Christian, married a man who was promiscuous and had an established sexual history, married a man who was alpha and aroused her. But then all of them turn around and give advice that parts of the manosphere is immoral and that women should serve regardless of whether alpha or not. They give advice for a situation they know nothing about. To sum, they give advice on what SHOULD be case (based on Christian values), but you explain what IS the case and give advice on that.

  32. re: alphas. Primate alphas are serviced by females; in contrast, beta males have to service females. Human females always try to deceive that they don’t quite understand. Case in point.

    http://thoughtcatalog.com/erica-gordon/2014/08/bring-back-the-alpha-male-a-man-who-knows-what-he-wants-and-goes-for-it/

    Alpha males humans are catered to by women, and BETA males have to exert themselves to try to please women. This is always how it is. And women ALWAYS deliberately get everything backwards. “I’ll stop resisting you as soon as you lead me better.” “Making me feel comfortable and secure is exactly what turns me on.” “If you don’t quit calling other women and don’t start bringing me flowers pretty soon, then I’m going to think about leaving! Pretty soon!”

  33. The (female) Wall, set to music by a couple of comedians. If you’re trying to red pill a woman you know, for some unknown reason… starting here might be good:

  34. ” His adult children hate him – because he was an awful father ”
    People misconstrue the meaning of alpha when the say alpha means being mean.

  35. @Id Cess Pool, good point about the men commenters. When did so many unplug? I count myself just this year.

  36. On the issue of girls flaking. I just had a girl flake on me. She was supposed to come out to a party but didn’t. I kept it light but did respond: “Find some time to make it up to me. Cocktails…suited up.”

    Before I used to not say anything but now that I’m spinning plates, I wanted to send a message that was in some ways bold and brassy but also in an more playful tone.

    The girl in question didn’t reply so I still keep my frame and move on.

  37. Joe
    August 17th, 2014 at 9:48 pm

    I’m red pilling the first mate. Why? When she thinks she is getting some special kind of what she calls “abuse” (depending on mood) I tell her I have been reading up and that most women respond like that. Since she also responded she feels better about it.

  38. jf12: “And women ALWAYS deliberately get everything backwards.”
    It’s a shit test 😀 Best thing I do is always take the advice and do the exact opposite.

  39. “People misconstrue the meaning of alpha when .. “
    Watercannonboy, I think you can pretty much preface almost any pronouncement about ‘alpha’ with that (with the exception of those made by the likes of Roissy and our learned host, of course).
    Y’know, it’s so inevitable, why, it’s like it’s not even a mistake … cough cough

  40. From that ‘seasoned’ SATC-type’s blurt of anxiety (linked by jf12& IdCess).

    “Perhaps men have become passive in their pursuit because they have so many options – causing them to sometimes feel nonchalant about a woman, even if she is a great catch. Dating is much more challenging for the women of our generation”.

    Or maybe he’s just not that into you.
    However in the world could that be?
    And the last sentence is just doubleplus untrue. Never been easier in human history. For women.

  41. @Tam, alpha-shaming is apparently a theoretically viable strategy for some women. “You! I see you there pretending to ignore me. But you’re not alpha enough for me! You’re too nonchalant, and with too many other women options, and you apparently fail to recognize what a great catch I would be for you! But, I reiterate, not me with you you, because you’re not alpha enough for me! Unless, you know, you actually paid me some attention … so, how’s about it?

  42. Feminism has stoked the ego of western women but I would caution about turning the ‘aplha male’ into a self-obsessed ego-fest.

    The ultimate ‘alpha’ is fully awakened (has taken the BIG red pill) like, say, Eckhart Tolle. He understands that all thought and action that doesn’t proceed from universal love is egoic and dysfunctional and an untruth. He understands the why of bad behaviour and compassionately takes action when needed (e.g. to end a relationship or to fire someone), but doesn’t take any affront egoically. Having little or no ego, he cannot be hurt by others and is so free to love and care for them (which he recognises as his true nature) without fear. He is truly free.

  43. I’m reading a little zen stuff lately and part of it is, if I got this right to lose one’s ego completely and not get attached to anything, for example emotions external and material things. Maybe that’s the path to true alphaness, but I see “alpha” dudes who don’t possess any of these characteristics…

  44. @heyjay, you are correct. It is important to never fall into the No True Alpha Scotman fallacy. Alpha has to be defined strictly based on observation of intergender behavior, strictly an operational definition. The most general one I’ve come up with is: alpha males are serviced by females, in constrast to beta males who have to service females.

  45. It’s the dropping out of Aristotle’s formal and final causes and thinking only material and efficient causes exist. This happened with the advent of Science 400 years ago (Science only needed material and efficient causes to do it’s work). We have been so in awe of science ever since that we have taken the non-existence of formal and final causes to be true, but science itself cannot tell us this and metaphysics has not shown this, on the contrary it may show us the reverse.

    No formal and final causes, no morality or meaning in life. Hence, the gradual road to materialism and amorality we have been on for the last 400 years. (Btw, I agree with much manosphere stuff as it pertains to our biological drives)

  46. @anarcho,

    you, like Tolle and the other “softer hearted” spiritual folks only get it half way because you assign a moral value to a chemical reaction (love).

    love?

    read more Ghandi, and believe it or not Tony Robbins. your identity (like Tolles) although redefined is still every bit the prison of his (and yours) old one.

    you want to walk the way, you have to see and feel all of it and reject the identity traps and selection bias you seem caught up in.

    a human who’s collective ego and evolutionarily distilled limbic survival instincts are predicated on recognizing simple patterns still has a lot of work to do.

  47. M.Simon,

    Just now getting back to you concerning your response to my introduction of Empire of The Summer Moon.

    Your response included: “Haven’t read it but I just read an excerpt. It is interesting that they went from dominant to submissive in a generation. They followed the old rules – kill your enemies. The better way is to outsmart them. Turn them. Make them submit.”

    I mentioned the book on this site because their gender social dynamics was extremely different from ours. Among other behavior we would find strange, their women would literally mutilate themselves and sometimes commit suicide if their husband was killed in battle.

    They went from dominate to submissive in a generation mostly due to small pox, cholera, alcohol, and the invention of the Samuel Walker Colt 45. Historically, submission has has occurred only after much death and destruction or widespread awareness and acceptance of inevitable domination.

    Chief Quanah Parker is central to the book and in the latter part of his life he “turned” became quite successful and respected in white culture.

  48. @Tilikum You’re assertion that love is chemical is based on the modern assumption of materialism; an assumption that cannot be coherently defended. If one is enlightened (I am not though I’ve glimpsed it) one has no identity and that is the point. I guess I’m saying morality is objective and biology is but part of the picture. (Btw, it is not soft to bear ones belly, read Mark Manson).

  49. Pingback: Arm Candy |
  50. Thank you for answering this questions, our Zeus is human afterall lol. Even though hypergamy is not fully blown here in the 3rd world,
    mainly due to poverty being prevalent; its slowly cripping in as we look up to the 1st world countries (America being #1).
    Your writing help me embrace the cards life dealt me and also makes it easy for me to interpret event and even predict some actually. And I know is just a matter of time before hypergamy start drowning men over here as the tool (poverty and religion) holding it down is becoming weaker….

    Thank you for your work!

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