Playing Friends

Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend.

“Rollo, how do I get out of the Friend-Zone?” Never allow yourself to get into it.

Women have used the LJBF (“let just be friends”) rejection for a hundred years because it serves an ego preservation function for her. To a greater or lesser degree, women require attention and the more they have of it the more affirmation they experience, both personally and socially. The LJBF rejection is a Social Convention that has classically ensured a woman can reject a man yet still maintain his previous attention. It also puts the responsibility for the rejection back on his shoulders since, should he decline the ‘offer of friendship’, he is then responsible for entertaining this ‘friendship’.

This of course has the potential to backfire on women these days since the standard AFC response will be to accept an LJBF rejection in the mistaken hope of ‘proving’ himself worthy of her intimacy by being the perfect ‘surrogate boyfriend’ – fulfilling all her attention and loyalty prerequisites with no expectation of reciprocating her own intimacy. I should also point out that this situation is analogous to men using women as “fuck buddies” – fulfilling all his sexual availability needs with no expectations of reciprocating commitment. Needless to say this merely positions the new “friend” into being the ‘emotionally supportive’ Beta counterpart to the indifferent Alpha she’ll consistently bang and then complain about – also popularly known as the Emotional Tampon.

The LJBF rejection also serves as an ego preservation for her in that having offered the false olive branch of ‘friendship’ to him in her rejection she can also sleep that night knowing that she (and any of her peers) wont think any less of herself. After all, she offered to be friends, right? She is absolved of any feelings of personal guilt or any responsibilities for his feelings if she still wants to remain amiable with him.

Men get a LJBF rejection because of a process. These are the “friends first” mindset guys; the guys who put far too much emphasis on a solitary woman and wait her out until the perfect moment to attempt to escalate to intimacy, at which point her most comfortable rejection (Buffer) is to LJBF. This is made all the more easy for her because of the process the guy used to get to that point.

Virtually all guys who get to the point of a LJBF rejection come to it because they fall in line with some variation of what I call a Sniper Mentality. They patiently wait for their one target, to the exception of all others, constantly attempting to prove their quality in doing so – meaning they emphasize a comfort level and try to be friends before lovers. In essence they believe that desexualizing themselves will make them more attractive (by virtue of not being like “other guys”) because they’ve bought into the idea that a woman must be comfortable with them first before they initiate intimacy. Once the AFC gets to a point where he’s mustered enough courage to initiate, and he feels she ‘should’ be comfortable enough to appreciate him as boyfriend material, the Sniper takes his shot.

The problem with this process is that it bypasses essential stages of attraction and the necessary discomfort and sexual tension necessary for intimacy and proceeds directly to a warm familiar, comfortable, (and ultimately anti-seductive) rapport, the exact opposite of arousal. If you think about this in terms of sex, this is the stage right after climax when she wants to cuddle, spoon and be wrapped up in her nice, secure oxytocin induced comfort. This is the opposite of the testosterone fueled, sweaty, anxious and uncomfortable stage of arousal and intercourse before that release. So in terms of “friendship” and the Sniper mentality, you’ve skipped arousal and gone straight to comfort. You’re perceived as a stuffed animal she can hug and then put back on the bed. Thus, when that previously platonic stuffed animal uncharacteristically gets a hard-on and says “I think we ought to be intimate” her reaction is to think that everything you’ve done for her up to that point has been a grand ruse. “My God, all you wanted was sex this whole time?”

Her most predictable response is then the LJBF rejection. The field has already been tilled by you, it’s only one, very easy step for her to stay in that suspended comfort – “can’t we just be friends?” And then the cycle repeats. The AFC believes the LJBF is a genuine offer (not a rejection) and then falls back into the Sniper mentality. He mustn’t have been convincing enough to prove his worth to her and therefore returns to further proving himself as the perfect boyfriend until he once again presses his intent of intimacy after another period. All this goes on apace until she becomes intimate with a ‘real’ boyfriend and/or he acquires a new target after realizing his efforts with the LJBF girl aren’t bearing fruit.

The problem with a lot of the ‘friend-zone’ advice women tend to offer is that they cast doubt on whether a LJBF rejection is in fact a rejection and not a genuine offer of friendship. To which I’ll say, the only reason the ‘friend-zone’ is such a common issue among men & women for so long is because it’s been repeated so regularly and the outcome so predictable as a rejection. A woman’s behavior is always the only gauge of her intent, and thus when a rejection like LJBF has been so consistently met with the same outcome and behavior (as evidenced by thousands of identical stories from men) it’s only prudent for a Man to behave in kind.

A man’s default response should always be to excuse him from the LJBF situation. The reason for this is because it serves his best interest whether she is testing him or is rejecting him. If he is confident enough in himself to walk away from the sexually tense environment, he proves himself as decisive enough to put himself above being ‘played’ like this. Ergo, he leaves her with the impression that he is the PRIZE, possibly has contacts with better prospective women and is confident enough to take away his attentions from her and thus passes any shit test she might have implied, while placing the responsibility of a re-connection on her (where it should be anyway). If she has in fact had a change of heart (her prerogative, remember?) and is using the LJBF as a means to reject him, he still benefits from all of the above and plants the ‘seed of doubt’ in her about her initial estimation of his acceptability for her intimacy. And even if she is truly not interested in the guy, he walks away on his feet and not his knees, by playing “friend” with her and wasting still more time that could be far better spent with more productive prospects.

It is really one of the few win-win Game situations for a guy to make a wholesale withdrawal of his attentions when he is confronted with an LJBF. Women know all too well how an LJBF places social pressure on a guy to accept what basically amounts to an ultimatum of negative social proof, and that’s a hell of a shit test no matter what her real intent is. If the guy turns down her offer of friendship, he’s the dickhead, not her. But the guy that can do what common sense and gut instinct points out to him will be the one to succeed, with her, other women and himself.

Human being’s natural inclination is to avoid confrontation. When a man makes an approach to intimacy with a woman this becomes confrontational. If she is unsure of a man’s sexual acceptability for her intimacy she must resort to psycho-social, learned behaviors to diffuse this confrontation. Preferably these techniques should be reinforced beforehand and proven to diffuse just such a confrontation, thus the LJBF response is acted out through generations of women across many different cultures – quite simply it works more often than not. You can also apply this to the Boyfriend Disclaimer; women who not-so-nonchalantly weave into their casual conversation that they have a boyfriend in a preemptive effort to diffuse a potential suitor’s interests. It’s basically a proactive LJBF rejection.

It’s the guy who is unwilling to accept these conventions that makes the most lasting impressions of confidence with women. It goes against what our common human heritage dictates for us – avoid conflict, don’t make waves, be her friend, etc. By not accepting a LJBF you emphatically make known that you are good at confrontation, you have an understanding of her motives and you’re confident enough in yourself to make it known. Not only does this impress her with potential for security provision it also implies future confidence. The problem for most guys is enacting this and making it a default behavior when our biology would have us move away from conflict rather than engage in an unacceptable social dynamic that is subtly damaging to his own interests.


54 responses to “Playing Friends

  • Will S.

    Five years ago, I stopped having any single women as friends, unless FWBs; I decided I will not be LJBFd. I realized I derived no benefit from having a single woman as a friend, because there’s nothng I could do with them that I couldn’t do with my buddies, and in fact, usually less (since guys like guy stuff, and women like buying clothes), so… there’s no point. I kicked my one remaining female friend to the curb, and have had no regrets. I had one FWB this summer, till she tired of it. Her loss. I got what I wanted out of the situation, more or less.

  • detinennui32

    A comment at Solomon II’s site:

    “If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me.”

  • detinennui32

    Looking back to my college beta days, I made so many mistakes it isn’t even funny.
    1. Accepting “friendships” with “LJBFs”
    2. Not figuring out that “LJBF” does not really mean what it says
    3. Having too many women as platonic friends. It makes you a beta orbiter even if you don’t intend to be one. The only men who hang out with women are LJBF beta orbiters, or gay.
    4. Having too many, um, homely women as platonic friends. Not too many things DLV like hanging out with women you aren’t banging, especially homely women.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I didn’t intend this to be an essay on the legitimacy of inter-gender friendships (I’ll get to that), but rather seeing the LJBF as what it is, a rejection.

  • ♠A

    This one of the few concepts I did figure out by the time I got to college. I had no problems making friends and I realized (in high school) the women that said such a thing never followed up on even being friendly, let alone more. So I’d just say: Thanks but I’ve got enough friends.

    Where my biggest mistake was, as you point out, Rollo, was putting the cart before the horse – comfort before attraction. If one thinks about the Matrix in which we were raised, it’s a perfectly logical error to make but a huge one nonetheless .

  • Y

    What sometimes still happens to me, is that I meet a woman that I find attractive and get on really well with… and I forget myself and before I know I’ve been talking with her for 4+ hours and I haven’t made a proper move yet.

    It’s not easy to go back and try and set a sexual frame… I do it anyway but the results are less good than when I set that frame much earlier.

  • Neecy

    I agree Rollo. Sexual attraction is almost instant with most people. Therefore, no man should have to build it with a woman. If she is trying to LJBF you, it should be clear she has no sexual desire for you – at least not initially. But I find its rare that over time sexual attraction develops for men who you don’t have an immediate sexual desire for early on.

    If a man chooses the LJBF status, then hopefully its b/c he really just wants to be friends and nothing more. Otherwise i think its best for both parties to not muddy the waters and save themselves the drama later.

    Plus people should ALWAYS stick to one simple general rule of thumb when it comes to relationships – RECIPROCATION. Be it sexual or non sexual relationships. never give what someone is not willing or able to give back to you is my philosophy.

  • Cat Patrol

    I never been LJBFd. Probably because I broke up with most of my girlfriends. However, any guy should realize that its just a girls way of letting you down easy.

  • Cat Patrol

    Realistically, I don’t know why LJBF is one of the main topics on the Game/Manosphere blogs. Everyone should already know that it means a girl is just not interested in having sex with you. Its so damn elementary.

  • Will S.

    There are always newcomers, though, Cat Patrol; ‘red pill’ takers whose eyes are just being opened. Gotta share with them…

  • Cat Patrol

    Neecy says:

    “I agree Rollo. Sexual attraction is almost instant with most people. Therefore, no man should have to build it with a woman. If she is trying to LJBF you, it should be clear she has no sexual desire for you – at least not initially. But I find its rare that over time sexual attraction develops for men who you don’t have an immediate sexual desire for early on.”

    Great advice Neecy. Looking back, nearly all the sex I’ve had with women was with ones who I had sex with on the night I met them. You got to strike while the iron is hot. Don’t give them time to change their minds.

  • Tim

    Boy, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. Laugh, because it’s true; cry because I spent a lot of my younger (AFC) years doing the LJBF dynamic hoping it would turn into a romantic/sexual relationship. Boy was I wrong! And boy did I waste a lot of time doing this. Women really shouldn’t do this fraud game and guys shouldn’t buy it. Today, I have one woman as a friend and we’ve been friends for years … I’ve never been sexually attracted to her so I have no agenda. The others whom I tried to keep the LJBF going? They’ve never contacted me since. It’s a loser/fraud game for men, and really it is for women, too. There’s nothing to be gained by mincing words.

    Great blog, I’m enjoying it very much.

  • Ras

    The way to handle BF disclaim is to act like she never said it and keep going, whereas walking away is answer to LJBF.

  • detinennui32

    Cat:

    It really is elementary. In a sense I knew that LJBF meant “I don’t want to have sex with you” but we couldn’t put that into words.

    Where the manosphere has been most helpful is instruction and coaching on what to do after you get the LJBF. Usually I’d try to be nice and “prove” myself though I knew i had no chance with the girl. Exactly the wrong thing to do. The manosphere tries to teach that after an LJBF you blow the girl out; you don’t hang with her; you don’t invest another second of time or resources.

    This also shows men the power they have in the SMP. Sure, women hold the sex card. But men hold the investment and commitment card. And so many men don’t even realize that the women are looking for investment and commitment. They don’t realize the leverage they have and could have.

  • OffTheCuff

    Thank God I figured this out when I was 18 or so.

    I’ve had, one, perhaps two, LJBFs but I could tell they were rejections, so I set my attentions elsewhere. Now, I was beta as beta could be, but damn, It really pisses me off that guys will actually *accept* an LJBF. It’s fine to accept it if the girl is in your social circle and you have casual contact with… her, but one-on-one time? Hell no.

  • Zoso

    Man can be friends with a woman…but it has to be on his terms. Having female friends helps build a social circle, and gives you social proof. They will even cook food for you, and find girls for you. You have pre-selection and social proof. They like doing these things for you, even if you are not banging them. Because of the comfort level, you can flirt with them in front of your date, and it will get the hamster spinning.

    One should not be beta who kisses her ass. Even when you are friends with a girl, you should be alpha.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    This.

    “If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me.”

    and this.

    “Man can be friends with a woman…but it has to be on his terms. Having female friends helps build a social circle, and gives you social proof. They will even cook food for you, and find girls for you. You have pre-selection and social proof. They like doing these things for you, even if you are not banging them. Because of the comfort level, you can flirt with them in front of your date, and it will get the hamster spinning.”

    It’s not about “not being friends” with women, it is about not accepting a parasitic relationship. Female friends are AWESOME as long as it isn’t a one sided arrangement. I can’t tell you how much fun I have had having women in my social circles. As long as you maintain the proper frame there is never any danger of falling into the trap of providing her with attention at the expense of your balls.

  • loveiseasy

    I agree completely. One of the most powerful and influential friendships I’ve ever had was with a brilliant man who I had a good deal of respect for who essentially help transform the way I viewed the world completely. He challenged me mentally and emotionally and his work continues to effect my life on a day to day basis as I refuse to be complacent and continue to seek personal and intellectual growth. In short, he changed my life for the better and I often say that I really can’t imagine how my life would have been had I not crossed paths with him when I did.

    The only problem was that he wanted to fuck me and i certainly did not want to fuck him. In many ways, I was fond of him and I admired his brilliance, but it was more so like looking up to a big brother than anything. He tried a few times to no avail to turn the relationship sexual until he became frustrated after 2.5 years and decided that we were in a lop-sided friendship where I was mainly the person receiving any benefits from the relationship (life, career, guy advice, etc) whereas he didn’t see any real benefit being reciprocated. I was a little annoyed by this, but was able to extricate my contentions out of the situations in order to concede. He was simply absolutely right. The resentment was growing more apparent with every story I would tell him about one guy or the other and eventually he limited our convos to only those philosophical in nature or abstract ideas/theories. Shortly afterwards, we stopped talking completely. I wasn’t sorry to see him go honestly, our time together was well-spent and I gained and grew so much from it. To this day, I think of him fondly. We have made some correspondences here and there, but they’ve been limited to email and it’s possible we’ll never talk again. All in all, he’s one LJBF that I have the utmost respect for.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Woman: “I think of you as a big brother.”

    Translation: “I’d consider sex with you to be incest.”

  • Frame «

    [...] you’re operating in her frame. Are you in the ‘friend-zone’ or did you accept an LJBF rejection? You’re in her [...]

  • Badger

    One of the more gut-punching experiences of my life has been the preemptive LJBF, before the man has actually made any overt moves and often when I am not particularly interested in the woman in the first place. It always mindfucks me as to whether I am really not in control of the signals I am sending or if she just has a hair trigger paranoia that everyone is hitting on her (or feels the need to reject men to feel like she has options).

  • Guilt of Conceit «

    [...] is a very common dynamic for women when a Man outright refuses an LJBF rejection, or he ‘goes dark’ on her with a No Contact cutoff. From a behavioral perspective, [...]

  • Tom

    It should be elementary, but way too many men were taught by their mothers (including myself) that you can “nice” your way into a girl’s heart (and pants). Accepting the LJBF and plowing forward is doubling down on that strategy that their mothers said was a sure thing.

  • Breadcrumbs «

    [...] their brother (i.e. she’ll consider sex with you to be incest) or worse still, one of their girlfriends. If this happens your odds with hooking up with any of them is greatly [...]

  • servvante

    This was a great post, I like learning from my mistakes. Thanks.

  • BlackCat

    I wasn’t sorry to see him go honestly, our time together was well-spent and I gained and grew so much from it. To this day, I think of him fondly.

    Every guy should read liveiseasy’s post, and then read this quoted section again. And again. And again, until he truly understands just how selfish a woman can be and still think highly of herself.

    She benefited from him, despite knowing what he wanted and that she was never going to give it to him, and continued to string him along until he finally got sick of being used and left. And then, she said she “wasn’t sorry to see him go honestly.”

    Oh, but she continues to think of him fondly, and has the utmost respect for him. Isn’t she a good person?

  • Denial «

    [...] up, why he’s not getting dates (or 2nd dates if he is), why he’s constantly getting LJBF rejections, etc., and the flaws in what is really ego-investments and conditioned internalizations. As [...]

  • Jojo

    Let’s not be so myopic, Black Cat. Yes loveiseasy had a selfish interest in her friendship with this chump. But we all have friendships for reasons that are ultimately selfish. The chump’s selfish interest was the hope/anticipation of boinking her. And while he was too dense to see that it wasn’t going to happen at the time – and while 2.5 years is an excruciating length of time to witness anyone getting strung along like that – the best takeaway for him from this “friendship” should have been a lesson that the proper response to an LJBF is to cut one’s losses and walk. If he didn’t get the message then woe is him, facepalm etc. But let’s not hate on loveiseasy for doing exactly what we’d expect from her.

  • Year One «

    [...] Playing Friends [...]

  • B. Dynamics « the professor

    [...] LBJF (lets just be friends) - http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/playing-friends/ [...]

  • Djeed

    I really feel like Neo in the Matrix. I am now on the jump scene “no problem…. free my mind… freee my mindd….”

  • Awareness and Intent «

    [...] it kind of depends on the individual, but to varying degrees I’d think no. As I stated in Playing Friends, the LJBF rejection has been so provably time-tested that it’s entered into a standardized [...]

  • The Crime of Being Nice « M3

    [...] a rapist don’t it. Well.. except when you, i dunno.. get married.  I’ve been told that if you’re not fucking, you’re just friends. But what do i know. Granted, that doesn’t mean that your obligation is right here, right [...]

  • Chewie

    My first girlfriend broke up with my by saying LJBF when we were 14. I found out right away that LJBF is a lie.
    Over the years, I’ve heard LJBF more than a few times and always walked away from the girl because I simply didn’t want to be friends with her. Girls told me over and over that such a move was mean and that I should a take the LJBF offer at face value. Oh well.

  • Eric

    To follow up on BlackCat re loveiseasy, and drawing on Neecy’s point on reciprocation as the golden standard, I’m curious, how many LJBF acceptances result in a genuine reciprocal friendship?

    In other words, how many of these girls give as a real friend and not just take?

    My experience as the sucker/chump who accepts the LJBF offer is she was insincere, the offer was a formality, and she avoids me thereafter. Or, she’s willing to continue taking benefit from our relationship, but unwilling or at least reluctant to give (non-sexual) benefit in kind to me.

  • Game and Triune Brain….. | My journey to thrive….

    […] The idea that a woman only sees a particular man as a “friend”.   We know this is only playing friends.  On the female side we see women with the “complete” guy, but still not interested. […]

  • Tom

    “Every guy should read liveiseasy’s post, and then read this quoted section again. And again. And again, until he truly understands just how selfish a woman can be and still think highly of herself.”

    BlackCat I might have written your post word-for-word. I felt sick to my stomach when I read her post. She is garbage that considers herself awesome.

    Men need to understand that when a woman offers him “friendship”, it is literally the least friendly thing she can ever do to you. They also need to understand that deep down inside, SHE KNOWS THIS. Walk away, and never think of her again.

  • Krystle

    I love looking through a post that can make men and women think.
    Also, thank you for allowing me to comment!

  • Getting things off my chest. Coping skills? - Page 2

    […] Re: Getting things off my chest. Coping skills? Vandal, it's not okay to be friend-zoned by your wife. Why would you consider that? It's a rejection, Hoss. Not an offer of friendship….. […]

  • Fortis

    Rollo and Co. Perhaps you guys can give me some solid advice.

    First off, thanks for opening my eyes.

    Back in September, a girl LJBF’d me and I was thinking i was cool by saying, “sure, i’ll be your friend.” This was a stupid mistake. I want to just be done with her and move on, but she’s constantly wanting to hang out and such. I think she legitimately wants to be my friend. We’ll go rock climbing, grab food and shoot the shit. She’s a cool person. However, I hate the cognitive backlash I suffer whenever my emotional centers begin to idealize this girl because I’m still into her sexually. My good friend suggests that I just slowly stop responding to her and her texts, but I feel so goddamn caught up in it all.

    I dislike feeling manipulated and used. I don’t spend any money on her, but the investment in time and energy seems a bit bunk given that I’m not getting what I want out of it.

    Do you suggest that I just cut ties with her and withdraw my affections and such? It gets weird just because she’s the one who always initiates anything. She’s not like the usual LJBF who will say that and then not retract. Still, I get the feeling she just enjoys having a guy around who makes her feel good and doesn’t get to fuck her.

    Anyone else been in a situation like this and can give solid advice? I’m considering just deleting her number and deleting her texts when she sends them until she stops bothering me.

  • magellan

    Fortis,

    It’s a lopsided transaction. She gets your attention and feels, you feel manipulated and used.

    Ignore a few texts, create some distance, etc. It’s time for her to add some value. If she doesn’t fuck you or help you get laid by offering her up her friends, then it’s a waste of time and you shouldn’t feel bad about ignoring her. If she doesn’t come around, express interest in her friends. If she still doesn’t come around, disengage.

    A real friend would consider your needs.

  • Purgatory |

    […] in the past about the utility LJBF rejections mean to women, men’s Beta Game tactics of Playing Friends in the hopes of qualifying for a woman’s intimacy at a later date, and how men and women […]

  • Softek

    I just got LJBF’d today. I saw it coming. For the months up to now after finding this blog I was still talking to this girl I’ve been friends with for close to 10 years. I’ve always had a thing for her.

    I was trying to game her for months and see if I could spark any interest and get her to see me as more than a friend. I thought I was having some success but now I think I was just using what I thought was Game to delude myself into thinking it was really working — and sustaining my belief in blue pill reality.

    Today I just couldn’t take the torment anymore and told her how I really felt — that I wanted to go out with her.

    I read this post before I told her the deal. When my worst fear happened and she told me that she wasn’t interested in me and just wanted to be friends…I told her I couldn’t be friends with her if she didn’t want to be with me.

    I just told her straight that if she didn’t want to be with me, we can’t be friends, because hanging out with her / hugging her / etc. would feel like torture. And that was the torture I was already putting myself through by playing friends with her when really what I wanted was to be in a relationship with her.

    She didn’t get angry or anything. She just said she understood and couldn’t really fight with me. It ended on good terms. It hurts like fuck and to be completely honest I feel completely devastated and like the one thing I wanted most in life just hit the floor and shattered into a million pieces…

    But it ended on good terms.

    I feel much better having gotten rejected after putting myself out there, compared to going on playing friends and hoping that something would happen eventually, when I think I knew deep down it was a lost cause all along. I just didn’t want to believe it. Because I was afraid of what’s happening right now: no more “friends.” No more delusions. Just the gut wrenching feeling of being rejected.

    But it actually feels like a weight’s been lifted off my chest. Now I know that she knows I really wanted to be with her, but I also respected my own needs at the same time. She knows how I felt, and she knows that I’m in a lot of pain, but she also knows that I’m not going to cave and play the friends game. Thanks to this blog I’ve learned to have self respect, and there’s no anger or hostility or bitterness or resentment required.

    I told her straight up that seeing her, talking to her, and hugging her, knowing now that she has no interest in me, would just feel like getting stabbed in the heart a million times. And that’s the truth. I told her I wanted to be with her and if she didn’t want to be with me, then we couldn’t be friends. That it was nothing personal, it was just that I didn’t want to be her friend, I wanted to be in a relationship with her, and being friends would just torment me.

    Some guys might say that’s “giving her too much.” But you know what I say? Fuck you. I feel great getting all that off my chest to her. I wanted her to know how I felt. And the end result is still the same: no more friendship. It’s terminated. The only difference is it didn’t end on a hostile or angry note. I just clearly expressed my feelings to her and then had the self respect and dignity to walk away on my feet and not my knees.

    It hurts like hell, but it feels good to be taking responsibility for myself. It doesn’t hurt as much or feel as bad as the frustration of playing friends and hoping there’ll be something more. That is chronic hell. Now that I definitely know she has no sexual interest in me, I at least have something to work with and can let it go and move on. Having my hope blown to smithereens doesn’t feel very nice but I’d rather have that happen than keep clinging onto a situation that was so painful and damaging to me.

    I say if you’re in a situation like mine, tell her how you feel and get it over with. Almost guaranteed she’s going to reject you, so prepare for it. But you’re just facing what you’ve known to be true for a long time — that it’s been a lost cause all along.

    Now all the inner stuff is bubbling to the surface. Realizing how messed up my life is, how many problems I have, all the abandonment and rejection pain, all the fears, all the attachment to loneliness and depression and anxiety.

    I need to change. I feel more ready to do that now that I made my feelings crystal clear to her and was rejected. It hurts so much, but it feels liberating at the same time. As hard as it was to terminate the friendship, I thought about all the time I spent with her, and it really was just awful. It was awful because I was so in love with her and I was always so happy to be around her and we weren’t in a relationship, and now I know she was never even interested in me.

    But I have the dignity of terminating the friendship in a calm, mature way. I didn’t get upset with her or anything. I just made it clear that being friends with her would just torment me because I didn’t want to be her friend, I wanted to be in a relationship with her. The message got through clearly and she didn’t get upset. She felt awkward but she respected my terminating the friendship and didn’t challenge me about it.

    I feel like crawling into a hole and not eating for a week, or just curling up and dying. But hey. No shame. You have to feel the painful feelings in order to have the confidence that you can deal with them, and that they don’t run your life for you. I have to face all this pain I’m feeling now in order to learn that I can handle it. It isn’t the end of the world, even though it feels like it. Even though I have all this pain that I feel like I can’t deal with, I *can* deal with it, and I am dealing with it. I’m okay, and it’s safe to let it go.

    Unplugging is not a pleasant experience, but it’s important that we don’t resist it. It’s all about loving and respecting yourself. That includes smartening up and being honest with yourself and your feelings, and only pursuing girls that have a high interest level in you. If you’re starting to play friends with a girl, stop — don’t let yourself even get into that situation. Have to make your intentions clear early on, whether it’s subtly or more directly.

    I was so afraid of being overt and asking her out, because I thought if I kept gaming her for longer and longer, I could get her to want me without ever being direct.

    In short term dating or whatever that can be a good strategy, I’m sure. But not in playing friends, especially like in my situation where it’s around 10 years into it. I say just be direct and get it over with because you’re not doing yourself any favors by bottling all your feelings up. Better to let them out and feel the pain of rejection so you can accept it and move on with your life, as hard as it is.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Softek, may I use your story for a post?

  • “In My Tribe”: Common Ground Among MGTOW, MHRA, & Game Theory in a Post-Rodger Discourse #mra #pua

    […] the MGTOW observations of “Male Harems,” it’s just the functional destination of being in “the friend zone.” From either perspective, the point is clear: you are being used in order for a woman to keep […]

  • Otter Barnes

    My preferred response to LJBF is to put my arm around her shoulder, pull her inward, look her in the eyes, and say, “Friendship is all that I want.”

    Then I put my hand on the back of her neck and go in for the kiss.

    If she accepts the kiss, I gaze in her eyes and say, “I’m a special kind of a friend.” Then I go full-caveman with it. If she resists the caveman, I take a step back and lay some more groundwork.

    If she denies the kiss, I smile, say “I don’t give second chances,” and walk out. Then I make a note in my phone to ensure that I don’t forget. You have to be really fucking cocky to pull that off.

  • Otter Barnes

    My preferred response to LJBF is to put my arm around her shoulder, pull her inward, look her in the eyes, and say, “Friendship is all that I want.”

    I should expand on that further.

    When she says LJBF, I’ll feign beta-ness, nodding like a sad puppy. Then, after some moments of silence, I go in for a hug. Naturally she complies.

    Then I pile on the Alpha.

  • 20 Questions |

    […] was kind of surprised at getting a LJBF since it hadn’t happened to me for years by then, but all it took was right place, right […]

  • Scotty

    When I was 18, I said this to myself: “Better to ask and get the answer you don’t want than wait a long time and get it anyway after agonizing over it.” Softek’s story is a warning to us all. Saturday I am meeting someone for an “English speaking date.” (it’s Japan) Second meeting, no biggie as I have a date before that too and I just prefer to eat with company. She said “I am not interested in a boyfriend right now” before our first date, no worries as I am really just using her for companionship during meals and an opportunity to speak something other than Japanese all day. But if she comes across as cute and interested, I’ll drop the invite. “I think we should have sex.” “I’m not interested in a boyfriend.” “I didn’t say I wanted to be your boyfriend.” if she goes cold, her loss, and it could be over though I also might just keep stringing her along to watch how she handles post being invited to bang tension. In all, it doesn’t matter to me because I have buffers in the form of other women and other opportunities, which is the best psychological defense, really. The comment about sniper mentality is spot on. Overfixation builds overtension builds awkwardness and sets the man in an inferior position which is never attractive.

  • Alpha Agents of Righteous Karma |

    […] have a similar story to Cail’s. When I was a senior in high school I had a ‘friend‘ named Reneé, she was a gorgeous auburn-red head with a fantastic 17-18 year old body. We […]

  • Spike

    I wish I knew this as a teenager, or young man.
    This is a message that needs to be sent out by men to young men, by their fathers, and reinforced through “man finishing school” – where men can have mentors that will tell them the pitfalls of relationships.

  • Game Works |

    […] the reasons for your predispositions towards a Savior Schema, feminine identifying, why a LJBF is a rejection, why Beta Game comes naturally to men but is self defeating, or why SMV accrues and […]

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