Male Space

female-boss-motorboat-elite-daily

There’s an interesting discussion that’s been belabored in the manosphere for a while now, that of traditionally “male spaces” being infiltrated by women and / or being redefined by feminized restructuring. The modern, western, workplace is the easiest example of this, but whether it’s the recent inclusion of women in the formerly all-male membership of Augusta Golf Club, or the lifting of the ban on women (and accommodating their prevalent physical deficits) being in combat roles in the military, the message ought to be clearer to red pill men; the feminine imperative has a vested interest in inserting itself into every condition of male exclusivity.

Whether this condition is an all male club or cohort (gender segregated team sports for example) or a personal state that is typically attributed only to the masculine – characteristic strength, rationality, decisiveness, risk taking, even brashness or vulgarity – the Feminine Imperative encourages women to insert themselves, and by association the Feminine Imperative itself, into masculine exclusivity. Scout Willis’ (Bruce Willis’ daughter) most recent ‘activism’ to encourage female equality by going topless in public is an example of this female-to-male parity (google it) – in an equalist utopia, if men can do it, women should be able to as well.

The First Woman

This push into male space is rarely due to a true desire to belong to a traditionally all-male institution or condition, but women are encouraged to believe they’ll make some dent in the universe simply by being the first to push past a “gender barrier.” It’s not about making a true contribution to that male institution or endeavor, but rather a goal of being ‘the first woman to do it too’.

For all of the misdirections of a hoped for equalism, it’s not about becoming an astronaut for a woman, but rather becoming the first womanastronaut – then moving on to being the first woman assigned to a combat role in the military, then the first woman to play at Augusta. If equalism were the real intent, we could expect the desire of the endeavor itself would supersede this, but  the Feminine Imperative motivates women (and socially demotivates men’s resistance) to the first woman goal, not the actual accomplishment or excellence in that accomplishment or endeavor. The trail being blazed is less important than being the first woman trailblazer – in fact it can simply be the same trail men blazed centuries before and still be recognized as a significant accomplishment.

The goal is to be a woman in male space.

The cover story is the same trope the Feminine Imperative (and its social arm, feminism) always finds useful; the never ending push towards gender equalism. The practice however reveals the push into male space serves two purposes – social control and male oversight.

Social control is the easier of the two to grasp. Even when changing the rules of an all-male game to accommodate a lack of genuine female interest in a male endeavor, it fundamentally alters the nature of that game. The first woman allowed participation in that game is novelty enough to extend the Feminine Imperative’s social control into that male space (i.e. “nowadays women do it too”).

An easy example of this would be NASCAR’s embracing a driver like Danica Patrick. It’s not that she’s an exceptional driver, and I can’t vouch for her genuine passion for NASCAR, but the social control she represents is that she is the first woman to (dubiously) be taken seriously in the nominally all-male space of NASCAR drivers. The goal has been achieved, all that’s left now is female oversight of this male space.

Overseers in the Locker Room

The second purpose in the goal of female inclusion into male space is really a policing of the thought dynamics and attitudes of the men in that space. When women are allowed access to the locker room the dynamic of the locker room changes. The locker room can take many different shapes: the workplace environment, the sports team, the group of all-male coders, the primarily male scientific community, the ‘boys club’, the group of gamer nerds at the local game store, even strip clubs and the sanctuary you think your ‘man cave’ is – the context is one of women inserting themselves into male space in order to enforce the dictates of feminine social primacy.

When the influence of feminine-primacy is introduced into social settings made up mainly by men and male-interests, the dynamics and purpose of that group changes. The purpose becomes less about the endeavor itself and more about adherence to the feminine-inclusionary aspect of that endeavor. It starts to become less about being the best or most passionate at what they do, and more about being acceptable to the influence of the Feminine Imperative while attempting maintaining the former level of interest in the endeavor.

Men unaccustomed to having women in their midst generally react in two ways; According to their proper feminized conditioning, they embrace the opportunity to impress these ‘trailblazing’ women (hoping to be found worthy of intimacy) with their enthusiastic acceptance of, and identification with, their feminine overseer(s), or they become easy foils of an “out moded” way of thinking that the new ‘in-group’ happily labels them with.

Once the feminine-primary in-group dynamic is established a ‘feminine correct’ social frame follows. This feminine correction restructures the priorities of goals, and validates any accomplishments, in terms of how they reflect upon the feminine as a whole. Thus any in-group success is perceived as a feminine success in male space, while in-group failures or simple mediocrity is either dismissed entirely or blamed on out-group men’s failure to comply with, or the rejection of, the Feminine Imperative’s ‘correcting’ influence on the in-group.

‘Bro Culture’

When I was writing The Apologists I briefly delved into the topic of Bro Culture. It seems that a constantly self-reinventing feminism loves to attach “culture” to the end of anything it sees as threatening – Rape Culture, Male culture of privilege, and of course Bro Culture. Make no mistake, the concept of Bro Culture is an operative feminine social convention. It may be convenient to think of the stereotype of Bro Culture as a male creation, but this convention is the direct result of the Feminine Imperative’s controlling need to insert itself into male spaces.

There are other feminine social conventions with the same latent purpose, but the ‘Bro Culture’ meme is really a dual purpose shaming tactic intended to restrict and control traditional male bonding while also fostering infighting amongst in-group and out-group men once feminine influence has been established in a formerly all-male space.

One of the most threatening aspects of conventional masculinity for the Feminine Imperative is the cooperative potential of male bonding. When only men comprise an in-group, team building, common purpose and a masculine-primary environment tend to define that group. I would argue that the modern insertion of feminine influence into all male spaces is a concerted effort to limit this bonding and unity in favor of a feminine-primary ‘correctness’.

This limitation may not be directly influenced by a present female; often all that’s needed to foster feminine-primary correctness is a feminine-identifying male in the in-group (anonymous White Knight), or even just a prevailing attitude of not wanting to offend the suspicions that other in-group men may subscribe to this feminine-identifying influence for fear it may get back to a woman they perceive may have authority.

Infighting

From The Apologists:

This is the hallmark of a feminized Beta mindset – to believe that “guys being guys” is inherently aberrant. It’s something other guys do. I could go into detail about how men giving each other shit is an evolutionary (and useful) vestige of tribalism and how men would use this “challenging” to ensure the strength and survivability of the collective, but this will only grate against his ‘gender-as-social-construct’ belief.

This discomfort with ‘being a guy’ is the root disposition of many high-functioning Betas, and particularly those seeking to better identify with the feminine in the hopes it will pay off in sexual dividends. These are the guys who never ‘got it’ that shit talking and locker room jabs (the same male space invaded by the feminine) are intended not just to determine masculine fitness, but to foster living, building and measuring up to a better masculine standard that benefits both the individual man and the collective of humanity.

The fact that ‘Bro Culture’ is even a term, or the go-to archetypal examples of it begins with stereotypical jocks, “douchebags” and team sport locker rooms, illustrates the threat to which male-exclusive forms of communication poses to the Feminine Imperative. If male space can be co-opted in the name of gender equalism, it’s far easier to restrict that male communication and influence it to encourage a sense of responsibility towards  feminine-primary security needs. In other words, it’s a much easier task to create future Beta providers if a feminine influence can pervade all male spaces – this is facilitated all the better when it is men themselves who hold other men accountable to the dictates of the Feminine Imperative and feminine sexual strategies.

I think it’s important that we don’t lose sight of the way men communicate, test each other, hone each other, give each other shit, etc. being primarily defined in the context of Bro Culture, douchebaggery, team sports, etc. That intra-male dynamic crosses so many social, racial and cultural strata it becomes an overarching threat to the Feminine Imperative.

It’s an easy task to set men against each other when they perceive sexual rivals to be part of an out-group, and feminine influence in male space fosters this passive (sometimes active) infighting amongst men. Disrupting male bonding, or even the potential for it, limits men’s potential to unify in their own interests and their own imperatives. There are many in-group examples of all male space where this infighting and resentment plays out – it’s important to understand that male-exclusive forms of communication, testing, encouragement and shit talking, are in no way limited to just the locker room. Even guys in the chess club will give each other shit – at least until the Feminine Imperative inserts itself there.

Resisting the Influence

I can’t end this post without drawing attention to the all male meta-space that has become the gestalt of the manosphere. The manosphere is male space writ large and a testament to what men can do when they come together, share experience and put their minds to a common purpose. The methods may vary, but the desire to collectivize male experience for the benefit of other men is a meta-scale form of male bonding.

And as should be expected, there will be resistance to that communication and bonding on a comparatively meta-scale by the Feminine Imperative and the men and women who subscribe to it. I should also add that a very obvious attempt on women’s inclusion into red pill ideology, theory and practice is also a move by the feminine into a male space with much of the same purpose I’ve outlined here – social control and female oversight of it.

Even the most well meaning of women involved (however peripherally) in the manosphere are still motivated by their innate security needs – and those hypergamous security needs imply a want for certainty and control. As such the psychological influence of the Feminine Imperative will always be a predominant motivator in their participation in this all male space. This leads women to a want to sanitize Game to fit the purposes of the imperative, as well as oversee the thought processes of the men who come to participate in it.

Just like any other male space, the manosphere is subject to all the sanitization efforts of the Feminine Imperative I’ve outlined in this post – by both women and men who still ascribe to feminine-primacy.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

192 comments on “Male Space

  1. @ Steve H. from convo with Zen – It seems like you are giving Zen queues on how to be beta with a woman, qualifying and trying to please her.

    @ Zen – Steve’s advice is 100% wrong. And I mean it when I tell you that hiring a prostitute to get your first encounter out of the way won’t help you – this isn’t about the mechanics of sex, we all know how to fuck, you’ll see it comes quite naturally. It’s about your mindset. Hiring a prostitute is exactly the opposite of being Alpha. An abundance mindset cannot exist while one hires a prostitute – why pay if willing women are abundant? Approach every woman with the assumption that they might want to fuck you, first off – cuz its true, btw (might is a very broad term). As well, if you think are a ‘catch’, why pay? You must think you can’t win a woman over on your own merits – the opposite of alpha. The alpha sees what he wants, invests, takes it or moves on to the next, knowing one will desire him before too long. Now, an alpha my bang a prostitute on the spur of the moment in Vegas or at a bachelor party or get a blowjob in the champagne room of some strip club – but as something he seeks out? Why would an alpha do that? Over time, an alpha begins to enjoy the game. He can sense early on when he’s winning once he gets good at it, so wastes a lot less of his time. In fact, once mastery is achieved, he can simply “get tone” from women in his orbit as he’s always “approaching”, always open to a sexual context when with a woman he finds attractive. It becomes fun – not dreadful. Just not the first time. Get to work, have some balls and be worth some woman fucking.

    And here’s the alpha mindset sexually. I’m getting off on how aroused she’s getting by me. I’m overwhelming her and she surrenders. The less I think and the more I just fuck, the more explosive the denouement of the exercise, yes? Sure, later on you can learn technique, find some horny woman (most woman are horny for someone, often not their husbands or boyfriends), play 9.5 weeks with etc.

    But lets say you are awkward? So what? Your point is not to win the approval or get a good sex score from the woman – it’s for you to enjoy banging the hell out of her. Done properly, the sometimes hours long period of relaxation afterwards is truly the most peaceful time a man can know. I mean, who gives a shit if she gives you a 5 or 10 for performance? Yes, when you want to become the svengali and hook them and alpha imprint on their orgasmic response, then some artfulness comes into play. But even then, it’s about your framing, not their approval, their submission is ASSUMED and DEMANDED in such a context. Try it, you’ll see, it’s almost rarely not responded to. And my experience has been that when a women objects to my dominance in sexual matters (rarely) she actually wasn’t that horny for me and was fucking me for some other reason, or is otherwise some kind of headcase. Which I’m all too happy to scrape off. Funny how if I’m having a great sex life I don’t mind a little extra shopping or a little extra time to get out of the house or listening to a woman talk in the car about her friends for an hour.

    Properly executed, alphaness is really leadership that is assented to, not dominance. Watch a women who is with an alpha she has submitted to and tell me she isn’t happy? That there isn’t a tranquility and togetherness that you can’t really get any other way? In the end, a man is shortchanging a woman by not being his ‘best alpha self’.

  2. The appropriate response to women telling men to “man up” is to ask them just what the fuck would they know about being a man?

    The more appropriate response would usually be something along the lines of “why the hell would you want anybody to ‘man up,’ given your overt hostility toward anything remotely masculine? Don’t you really mean to demand ‘metrosexual up!”?

  3. Glenn- “In the end, a man is shortchanging a woman by not being his ‘best alpha self’.”

    What exactly is she providing in return other than sex? What happens when the SHTF and you need her to be more than a groupie? Will being your best Alpha self assure she will be supportive in a time of crisis when you need her?

    I think too much concern about short changing women is got us in this mess in the first place. Our first concern should be not short changing ourselves.

  4. @badpainter

    I agree totally. The problem is the disconnect between a man’s need for sex and a woman’s tendency to exploit this for her gain. Only when there is unequivocally solid evidence (such as freaky non-PIV and non-PIA play) that sex will be provided freely and continually, should a man begin to consider the other “necessary, but (still) not sufficient” characteristics of the relationship.

    Not demanding that mutual chemistry be demonstrated from the get-go is what gets men in trouble. But perhaps delaying the more intimate acts until more dimensions develop is a reasonable compromise.

  5. @ Badpainter – I knew someone was going to go off on that comment. It’s clear, you’re angry at women – I’m not. I actually don’t mind being my “best alpha self” with a woman who responds in kind by being a great, sexy, woman who isn’t bossy, doesn’t nag and finds comfort in being with a strong, dominant man. A woman who nurtures me, who is a refuge for me from the world, who builds me up, who sees what’s great about me instead of what’s missing. I’m not doing it for her exactly either, as I now know that by being my best alpha self, I have the best chance of making a relationship with a woman work, but by the same token, if that’s what women react to well, and I’ve selected a woman who knows how to be a woman – well then, do I not have an obligation to be the best alpha male I can be to her? I play boy, you play girl – seems like a good formula for a relationship.

    But of course one cannot say anything of the sort in the Red Pill world. Men are victims here and we simply cannot discuss male agency and how we fuck ourselves. I mean, is it not possible that part of what is going on with women’s hypergamous nature is that too many men don’t know how to be alpha or maintain an alpha frame, which in turn triggers the wandering eye?

    For sure it was true in my marriage. Society had betaized me to death, even though I was a natural alpha in some ways, and was always more of a traditional man. After digesting the Red Pill, I’ve often thought that my marriage could have been much better had I understood “game” and other aspects of our gynocentric world. My behavior would have been different and I would have understood that at the foundation of my marriage, I had to maintain frame and attraction from my wife. I was never able to because I didn’t know how to. Example – shit tests. I took them seriously – disaster. Attraction – I actually didn’t think that this was that important to women (I know, crazy) but I didn’t realize that the extra 10lbs I’d put on were a really bad idea. I mean, I didn’t look bad, but still. I tried to constantly negotiate and reason with her and it took all the romance and sexiness out of our relationship.

    My ex was a hard 9. Prom queen, homecoming queen – high smv, did she not deserve a high smv alpha male who treated her like a prize? And was a man worthy of such a prize? I know, speaking like this pisses some men off – I don’t give a fuck…

  6. @Glenn, ” a woman who responds in kind by being a great, sexy, woman who isn’t bossy, doesn’t nag and finds comfort in being with a strong, dominant man. A woman who nurtures me, who is a refuge for me from the world, who builds me up, who sees what’s great about me instead of what’s missing.”

    That woman’s existence is not contingent on the man’s alphaness; it’s simply not, in reality. I’ve seen perfectly submissive wives with beta husbands, and I’ve seen contrary women with alpha husbands.

  7. Glenn –

    “But of course one cannot say anything of the sort in the Red Pill world. Men are victims here and we simply cannot discuss male agency and how we fuck ourselves.”

    I encourage you to go back and read my (several) comments in that exchange, through a prism of ‘here’s how you, as a virgin male, can assert your male agency, with pragmatic tools to deal with potential pitfalls in-the-moment, to get the virginity monkey off your back and move forward with your life’ and not through your pre-established prism of ‘This has got to be stupid advice on how to best suck up to a flabby HB5’. Because – your point that I quoted is precisely the basis of my counsel.

    “I knew someone was going to go off on that comment.”

    Ah, but I knew somebody was going to go off on my comment(s), you see…

    You’re an established red-pill man who’d only be (potentially) interested in a woman who’s a 9 or above. Excellent, more power to you. I’m talking brass tacks to guys who are still virgins well past the age where that’s still normal (as I was – that’s not criticism of them). If you’re asserting some sort of ‘highest first’ initiative as the only acceptable way for a man to shed his virginity – that it’s gotta be a stunningly hot chick or nothing – well, then we clearly disagree.

    “My ex was a hard 9. Prom queen, homecoming queen – high smv, did she not deserve a high smv alpha male who treated her like a prize?”

    Doesn’t piss me off in the least, I’m with you…provided that she has other (increasingly rare) qualities of femininity, grace, softness…qualities that aren’t directly tied to solely-physical appearance. And yes, a man is worthy of ‘such a prize’ if he is the very best that he can be, in reciprocity.

  8. Glenn’s comment is spot-on. The degree of a man’s alphaness will bring out either the best or the worst in a woman. In many cases, one would not want even the best of her….but in other cases, you get exactly the relationship that you want. Whatever the case, a beta mindset by definition is incapable of giving you the best possible partner because it wont bring out the best in a woman….it is like asking a car to run on water. You only get a real feminine woman when you are acting like a real masculine man. That requires dominance in every part of your life.

  9. @ Glenn and New Yorker,

    I get what you’re saying.

    I am not angry at women I am just not sure they are worth the effort. Knowing now what they and what they expect is better than my pervious understanding.

    But I want doesn’t exist and what does exist (beyond sex) I’m not sure I want. Not long term anyways, and I am not sure it’s worth the effort. It’s certainly not worth treating like an investment, and long term planning is out the window.

    My defect is that after 35+ years having been the poster child for Nice Guy Beta Chump making the switch the Red Pill Alpha seems to be not an option.

    I know game works. I know this because even I can make it work. I know dominance works and women respond to that. I do it all the time, but in different contexts. The problem is for me to maintain frame and dominance I need to be emotionally indifferent to whoever I am dealing with. It’s work. It’s exhausting. At the end of the day I need to a space where that’s not an absolute necessity. What you guys are saying is that space doesn’t exist with women. Thus never a moments peace and never an opportunity let my guard down. Unless I care not how she reacts, if she’s disposable then there is no problem.

    That means I can make this happen only so long as I give not a damn whether she stays or goes. That means I can only be in a relationship when I am in the same place emotionally as I am when I’m alone. Short changing her is therefore not my concern. All I can care about is if I am getting shortchanged. The moment I start to care in any way but the most superficial it’s over. And that’s OK because being a woman she can’t meet all of my needs anyway, and I being the Beta won’t be able meet hers.

  10. Badpainter,

    The whole point of game is to make it an essential part of you. That only comes with work and everyday vigilance. Then, you wont need to worry about letting your guard down because your core will be strong instead of weak. That only comes with time. However, don’t do it for women. Do it for yourself. Live your life with possibility instead of doom. Do a little more than you could yesterday. Progress comes in small pieces but it is a fantastic thing to behold when it happens….and gradually, things will open up.

    There are constant barriers, frustrations, etc….but you just need to remember the life you want to live and keep making the small steps. It is probably the ultimate exercise in patience. As you go through the process, you will see yourself changing. You wont worry about what women think anymore. You will only worry about your mission, your strength, your happiness. This will make you happier, more secure and more giving, because you can be. You don’t need to be an asshole to be good with women. You just need a clear sense of self and a mission that is independent of anyone’s opinion. Then, women will want to follow. You will be happy when you find one that you genuinely enjoy….but she will never be the center of your life, just someone who contributes to your good life.

    Not sure if you have done this, but I cant overstress how important physical exercise and a good diet are. They are the foundations of any good life. They will change you mentally and physically in ways that are not possible to explain.

  11. Steve and Badpainter – Seems we are in much greater agreement than I thought, great. So here’s the deal, BadP – and please don’t get pissed at me. You come across very hurt and emotionally wounded, call it angry or whatever you want. I am not unsympathetic, and in fact I’ve only moved out of my own anger and hurt recently. It is a motherfucker to wake up after the Red Pill, but it’s also not productive to stay in the “women are kryptonite” place. Fyi, Steve, I’m not chasing hard 9s these days – that was 20+ years ago.

    It does make me reflect on something though, and it’s really what has changed my life for the good. Being Alpha is a man’s natural state, deep down inside, viscerally, instinctively. Developing “inner game” is really a misnomer, because there is nothing else other than inner game. Technique and tricks don’t work – just look at all the failures in the PUA world. I was a bit of a natural because I actually had confidence due to my success in certain areas of my life. I was aggressive and assertive because I believed in myself, not because it “worked”. I was naturally good looking, and this I abused and never got how lucky I was or how to leverage/use it properly. If I had only used my appearance wisely with woman, I would have gotten laid way more, but as a typical Betaized male, I thought that was all superficial and that women were deeper somehow (more common in my generation I think).

    Now I couple that experience with the knowledge of behavior and women’s actual motivations, and present myself more thoughtfully to the world. I realize that for my own purposes, I want to become my best self and that the world sees this in me and responds well, including women (but the world loves Alpha males in general). It’s funny, I also pay less attention than ever to women and they react to me completely differently. I no longer qualify to women – or catch myself very quickly if I do. I no longer take their shit tests seriously or personally – just those two changes alone are revolutionary.

    It’s a push-pull tranformation. Sometimes forcing a change of behavior makes me see things and other times I notice a dynamic and change what I’m doing. But by putting these ideas into practice in my life, my interactions with women have changed utterly. And this change works everywhere. I’ve met several new women recently, some online, some live, all of whom are qualifying with me, not me with them. None of them are “the one” and I could move on from any in a second and probably will. I made this happen very intentionally. My approach to a woman essentially looks like marketing my frame. I basically say, “Here’s my world, you want to come for a ride?” If they don’t, I’ve moved on before they know what happened.

    BadP – As for your trust issues, nothing is guaranteed in life. People are fallible, organize your life accordingly. If you want to marry and partner up and share assets and resources, then you are vulnerable. Women will change their mind. They do not care about male suffering in any real way. And they will never change in our lifetimes. What, you think dealing with men is a cup of tea for women?

  12. Steve H, (starting to wonder, judging from your advice you might be Steve Harvey) anybody who follows that advice of ‘hope you don’t mind it’s been a while, is that okay?…’
    you might want to tell people what to say when the girls asks with a look of concern on her face, not a look of understanding, “so why has it been such a long time?”

  13. By the way Rollo, Susan Walsh completely misunderstood your comment on Dalrock and I followed the link about her “taking down” as she put it, your graph on sexual market value and she completely misunderstood that.
    She even doesn’t understand how a graph that has two plots on it can cover two different areas when time is one of the factors.
    At least I hope it was a misunderstanding and not purposeful attempt.

  14. WCB – at least quote me correctly, maybe. in none of those examples i gave did i ever write ‘is that okay?’ – and ‘right?’ enunciated in a presumptuous fashion comes across a hell of a lot different in the succinct flow of a conversation.

    Obviously it’s ideally better to not say anything that conveys one’s inexperience – but if a guy is nervous or freaking out or emotionally uncomfortable to any significant extent – this will pace the interaction, this will take some of the responsibility off his plate, and this will in most cases yield an understanding-yet-not-pitying reaction from the woman. So I think it’s a vital contingency plan to have at the ready. Hope that’s clear.

    All the same – I’ll answer the ‘hypothetical concerned woman’s’ question though it’s highly unlikely to be asked.

    Actually i’m glad you posited the question because it brings up an important point – at this point, the quasi-vulnerable disclosure has been given and offered freely. you’ve done your duty. no more vulnerable disclosure stuff after that. but again i have to emphasize how unlikely it is that the woman presses that particular issue – her sexual temperature is elevated every bit as much, she wants to fuck you probably every bit as much as vice versa.

    In the unlikely yet possible event that she questions your disclosure:

    ‘i’ve been saving the planet’

    ‘just kiss me already.’

    ‘i’m choosey. lucky you.’

    ‘i don’t know. who cares.’

    ‘*shrug*’

    ‘uh oh. maybe you’re wilder than i am. whatever, i don’t care. kiss me.’

    ‘just haven’t met anyone lately. hasn’t been a top priority.’

    ‘i’ve had a lot on my plate.’

    ‘who knows, i’m cool with it if you are.’

    *After all these, go back to kissing her like it’s no big deal. Which, it isn’t.

    HTH

  15. Actually she doesn’t misunderstand anything, she deliberately screen capped half of my comment (instead of linking directly to it on Dal’s thread) out of context in order to create her strawman.

    Screen Shot

    That’s all Susan does, create straw men.

  16. Susan and women like her most fear that men in their mid-late 20s will become educated en masse as to the longitudinally writ-across-the-lifespan calculated deceit and misdirection of the covert AFBB strategy practiced de facto by ~80% of modern western women in that same age range.

    That said – Rollo, you comment on her all the fuckin’ time. I never understood it. Maybe it’s time to ignore her. I’d say that apart from her increasingly vicious swipes at you, she’s nowhere near as horrible as the Amanda Marcottes of the world (nor nearly as influential).

    Lastly, a point on that ‘Cracked’ article ‘5 uncomfortable truths…’ – I think it’s important that the ‘Sphere be generally mindful of being forward looking and helping men at least in equal measure to criticizing feminism. I’ve tried to do that simply as a commenter and will try to keep that in mind going forward. Sometimes a man needs a space to vent and that’s fine, but if we ‘pile on’ without offering constructive tough love for moving forward with one’s life, we feed into feminist MSM caricature of us.

  17. It’s just about impossible to have a rational discussion about feminism.

    Any criticism of it at all is attacked. People aren’t even willing to look at the facts or consider anything that might be wrong with it. It’s just assumed to be true, and if you don’t agree with it, it doesn’t matter what you have to say, because going against it in any way, shape or form automatically gets you the label of being a misogynist.

    Either that, or you “don’t understand feminism.” Because feminism is “all about equality.” So if you imply or directly say something about feminism being unequal, or favoring one side over another, or having double standards — wrong, wrong, wrong. By default. Even if your points are completely logical and well-founded, you’re wrong. Nobody even listens to what you have to say.

    Twisting words and taking arguments out of context to make straw men is a favorite tactic of people like this.

    Whatever anyone thinks of feminism, EVERYONE should be offended by blatant ignorance of logic when it comes to making arguments about anything. For most people it’s just entertainment, though. They like getting their feathers rustled, but not to the point where they actually have to use logic, reason, and practicality to defend whatever belief it is they’re clinging to.

    It’s the allure of being right. They crave that feeling of superiority. And you can have that feeling without having anything to back it up, and that’s exactly what feminist propaganda is based on.

    And there’s the difference between feminism and the arguments against it. Anti-feminism isn’t about “being right.” It’s about the issues, and how they’re actually playing out in the real world, not how they “should be” playing out according to some armchair philosopher sitting in the ivory tower.

  18. Great post. Really enjoyed the comments too.

    The topic of women/girls invading men/boys spaces is something that concerns me greatly, and is the one of many FI double standards that really pisses me off.

    In the past year I joined a band to play bass. I’m in my 40s. My kids are getting older so I have the time now to commit to some rehearsals and gigs.

    I look forward to this band as a guy thing. But, as soon as I join, the drummer and guitar player start talking about getting a chick singer.
    I tell them no, it’s not a good idea. It’s going to change the dynamic. It’s going to be a drag. I offer to share the vocals with the guitar player who is not a great singer, but works hard to improve his voice and timing.

    Did they listen? Nope. Six months into rehearsals, a chick singer joins the band. The guitar player white-knights her–picks her up in his car. He changes our rehearsal schedule to accommodate her work hours and commute. The drummer wants to bang her and starts peacocking at rehearsals, and goes super beta, asking her stuff like is she OK with his drum fills. The guys don’t joke around as much anymore. They monitor their jokes and language.

    Even though I’m red pill and resolved to treat her like one of the guys, I found, to my surprise, that I was holding back with my bass playing. I was being self-conscious about it. That was never the issue with just the guys.

    After several rehearsals, she also goes princess. She doesn’t like most of the songs, and only wants to sing 3 out of 10 originals, will grudgingly sing 3 others and refuses to sing the remaining 4! She works on one song that she really likes. But, she brings nothing to the table like her own songs or ideas on how to improve the existing ones.

    It was horrible. Thankfully, she didn’t work out. Her singing wasn’t improving. For her the IDEA of being in a band was cooler than actually doing the WORK required to be a solid band member.

    With her gone, the band is fun again. Our rehearsals are focused. We are making progress. Chicks ruin all male spaces, even tiny little ones like rock bands.

  19. @ BadP – I’ve been thinking a lot about your comment. First, thanks for the brutal honesty. You are admitting a truth that gets at something fundamental about the reality of love and relationships and game etc. It seems one way of looking at it is that you asking this question (among others): How can I actually love a woman and “game” her simultaneously? How can I not be drawn into my habituated Betaness and vassalage to women after a lifetime of doing so? Is that at least partially on target?

    Here’s my answer. I don’t have a choice. I absolutely get thrown towards my habitual way of being at times with women, no doubt. I also am only tenuously engaging with women romantically/sexually at this time. At 51, for me, it’s a very big change, yes, but it’s reality. Game is truth and I’ve always attempted to be practical and empirically driven about my approach to life. So, first question for you? What other choice do you have but to game women? That’s what works with them.

    But I do many things differently. Some of this may sound nutty but it works for me:

    I have 5 sisters who in their own ways are just as difficult as any girlfriend ever was. I have a daughter who has been so alienated from me and so damaged by her mother crashing two marriages (mine and the second one) by the time she was 18, that she hates me now. In classic parental alienation fashion, she has tethered her existential lifeboat to her Mom – who is the source of much of her pain. But at 26 tells me I abused her when she was little, yet I never hit her, not once, and mostly she fought with her mom not me, i basically made the mistake of spoiling the shit out of her for her entire life so she can readily take me for granted. So, what do I do?

    – I keep people away from me who don’t really care for me or understand me. My family is a very dysfunctional, painful place and after years of being “the one who keeps everyone together” I’ve said fuck it. I come and go as I please, I take on almost no family obligations and have decreased my contact and reliance on my family for social fun. I’m happier for it, and you know what? I don’t say a word, but they know I’m different and that I can’t be taken for granted anymore. I’ve stopped “qualifying” with them as their “great brother” and I think before long they will start qualifying with me.

    -As for my daughter, I can look myself in the mirror. I was actually a really good dad and many people have attested to that. My daughter is an emotional wreck, but a high functioning one, so she will not look at herself. Guess what? She’s an adult. I don’t owe her a fucking thing. In fact, after digesting the Red Pill, I’m amazed at what a doormat I am with her. I think that my posture with my daughter has been trying to “qualify” with her as a good Dad for 15+ years. I’m done. I live for me now and if my daughter doesn’t like me, so be it. I had to face the really dark moment of “Can I face myself as a failure as a Dad” – which is how I interpreted this? Finally, I realized how absurd a question this is. I was a good Dad, nobody ever complained about my parenting until this, and my daughter has lost her mind. You know what? I care about myself too much to torture myself over this any more.

    The Red Pill has had me see how I’ve internalized valuing myself as a man solely as a father, as a provider, husband, etc, and the truth was that I had judged myself a failure on all these counts before finding the Red Pill and particularly Rollo. Now? I know this is mostly just the shit that men have to put up with in a femcentric world gone mad. I brush it off – and somehow I love myself more now. Somehow, they idea of judging myself a failure because my ex-wife is a sick cunt who turned my daughter against me seems absurd now. In fact, I’ve struggled and overcome huge obstacles to provide for my daughter. In fact, 400k all in is what I spent raising her and on college but she and her mom treat me like a deadbeat dad, never missed a child support payment for 14+ years, paid huge amounts extra. What I get now is that they need me to be that to make their sick little idea of reality work, it’s on them, not me.

    My point? I come first in my life now. Not being a Dad. Not being a husband. Not being a provider for others. The saddest part of all this? It took me so long to realize I really did live for others, not myself. When I was married and had the young kid and the stay at home wife, I was so uber motivated. After years of being divorced and my once loving and sweet daughter pulling away from me, I found my motivation for work was lagging and it affected my career. Only now after taking the Red Pill have I been able to get motivated purely for me. For my own purposes and ends that have nothing to do with family or proving for others.

    It’s a a bit weird sometimes. Old ways resurface all the time, but since I love myself so much more now and see how mean I was to myself in my judgments all those years, it usually just falls away as soon as I catch myself. Ask yourself this. What’s your dream life look like? Do you have one that doesn’t include family etc? Can you find one? Embrace it? Even little stuff. For me, it’s things like my music. I’m a singer songwriter and now, I’m really putting more time and coherent effort into it as I’m happier and more connected with it somehow. Or my business. Or the lakeside house I want. Or time with real friends – I have many male friends who are amazing. Or it can just be taking the time to read that really long history book I’ve always wanted to read.

    But it all comes from a more authentic and self loving place now. And from this place, having fun, sexy, romantic encounters with women sounds fun. But I’m so different now, I don’t qualify with women any more so the way I’m encountering them is different now. It’s so much easier and less confusing. Try out the new you in online dating. Notice how your profile is qualifying with women you haven’t even met yet. Notice how your notes of introduction are Beta missives that could make a nymphomaniacs pussy dry up. Notice how you are not mysterious, that you are way too accessible – and just act differently. Just online, I’ve snagged three new prospects with little effort because I know how to act now. I may not date any of them, fyi, I’m spinning plates there and in the real world with another chippy. All fun, I’m not going to marry any of them or move them in. It’s all on my terms and it’s like a new life, I swear it. It’s not easy. And I wouldn’t say my life is all peaches and cream, but still, I think it’s so much better. I know I’m much less riven with regret, self-loathing and anger.

    Look inwards. What negative beliefs about yourself has the gynocentric house of mirrors forced upon you?

  20. Glenn,

    First, thank you for your thoughtful response. I really do appreciate it.

    You rephrasing of my question and the following analysis are spot on, bullseye in the ten ring. I only wish I had been so clear and concise from the beginning.

    I know that the self improvement route and gaining a mastery of game are going to be essential unless I find
    religion and join a monastery.

    So let’s the intensity and anger of comments to be a mourning

  21. Damn phone, continuing:

    So let’s the intensity and anger of my comments to be a mourning period. Where I am mourning the children, wife, life I’ll never have. The lost of possibility, and potential hurts now only because in killing the inner Beta meant killing off some closely held hopes and dreams at the same time.

  22. Badpainter,

    With the killing off of the old dreams…..new ones will appear…and they will be even better. Just give it time.

  23. Steve H(arvey) I paraphrased. That’s why I used single marks ‘ instead of double “. Don’t misquoted my non quote.

  24. Badpainter your outline of the catch 22 of it all really resonates.

    Yep, found myself thinking… well, seems like the only way you can pull em easily is to convince yourself not to care. But if you manage to do that, why would you bother with em, beyond scratching an itch?

    Same goes for keeping something going. Coolidge effect kicks in, wall’s approaching… meanwhile her hypergamy keeps on ratcheting…

    And YOU gotta keep gaming HER?

    Exhausting.

  25. D-Man, found the M-sphere aboot 2 years ago. Have been “gaming” (or maybe better put, putting in the effort to make my marriage happier) the wife for aboot 1.5 years now.

    Gotta say, things seem better, less bitch tests, more sex, accepting more of my decisions.

    Don’t know if it is the “game” or the fact that she is 51, and maybe her hormones are starting to decline. Whatever.

    But you are 100% right, it is fucking exhausting! Sometimes think it woud be better to just leave her and relax. But as the old saying goes, “the grass is always greener…”

  26. This comment of Walsh caught my eye:

    “I share the worry that university ratios are lopsided, and I am disgusted when feminists suggest this is a good thing – female power! No. I oppose competition between the sexes. We must cooperate. Neither sex can survive without the other!”

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2014/06/09/politics-and-feminism/manosphere-blogger-justifies-rape/#comment-1427707130

    Of course she opposes competition between the sexes – organized feminism has already won complete victory, so no further competition is necessary. And she’s happy about it. She says feminists disgust her, but that doesn’t stop her from contributing to feminist hysteria about the alleged rape culture on American campuses:

    hookingupsmart.com/2014/04/30/politics-and-feminism/finally-meaningful-progress-against-sexual-assault/

    Men’s rights groups are the only organizations opposing feminist policies, and she denounces them. So, what gives? She says she opposes feminists, but she attacks those who oppose them, and she supports feminist policies. She says she doesn’t like the current SMP because in many ways it’s dysfunctional, but has she ever said that something should be done to change it? Does she want to change the current legal and cultural environment in any way? There’s no sign of it.

    She wants the sexes to cooperate indeed. But the kind of cooperation she pictures is like the one between Vichy France and the German invaders after 1940. She promotes female primacy and expects all men to surrender.

  27. “My ex was a hard 9. Prom queen, homecoming queen – high smv, did she not deserve a high smv alpha male who treated her like a prize? And was a man worthy of such a prize? I know, speaking like this pisses some men off – I don’t give a fuck…”

    Glenn, you’re correct that men have to be their best selves. For themselves. But that doesn’t entitle any man to sex with a woman, any woman.

    No, your hard 9 ex wife did not “deserve” a high SMV alpha male. She didn’t and doesn’t “deserve” to be treated like a prize. She doesn’t DESERVE anything. She isn’t ENTITLED to anything. She might get those things; but that does not mean she has shown herself worthy of them. It only means that some alpha man decides to give them to her and/or treat her like a “prize” because of her hard 9 looks. But is that what she deserves? Is she worthy of those things solely because she is very physically attractive? No, she is not.

    Women are not entitled to commitment. They’re not entitled to a man’s money, time, resources, attention or sexual fidelity. A high SMV woman is not entitled to a high SMV man simply because she herself has high SMV (read: Very good looking). She has to earn it and prove herself worthy of it; and she has to continue proving herself worthy of that every day.

    We as human beings need to eliminate the words “deserve” and “entitled” from our vocabularies. Women are not entitled to anything from men; just as men are not entitled to anything from women. This entire “male sexual entitlement” strawman that our opponents have erected is just bull, plain and simple. Men do not go around claiming “entitlement” to sex; only psychopaths and mental defectives do that.

    1. @Deti, I’m going to quote part of this for today’s post.

      A good counter question for the “men are not entitled to / do not deserve sex” trope is “Then what would you suggest a man should do if he wants to become intimate with a woman and get laid?”

      I guarantee you that 98% of the responses you receive will be some form of Just Be Yourself, or their interpretation of the same Beta identification Game the faux Nice Guys® (who really just wanna fuck because they think they’re “owed” sex) they despise have been told will make them attractive to women.

  28. “We must cooperate. Neither sex can survive without the other!””
    Well with guff she’s emitting, I’ll die laughing.
    Existential threat whistling round yer beef curtains and chilling them a bit nowadays, Sukie?
    Sure knows how to make an old man happy lolllzllz

  29. @Deti – I’m not sure that Glenn was claiming that, though he did omit additional criteria which I interjected and he then agreed with “provided that she has other (increasingly rare) qualities of femininity, grace, softness…qualities that aren’t directly tied to solely-physical appearance.”

    However I fully agree with you that neither men nor women are entitled to sex or commitment. That was a comment I had seen you’d written on another ‘Sphere site, and it’s a very important reminder.

    As to the strawman that our opponents have erected recently – I go back to ACIM: ‘we attack what we would defend’. Since our opponents spend so much time and energy asserting female entitlement to all manner of life’s finer things (except, of course, for sex) – naturally they lash out at the notion that men would be entitled to anything, and particularly that men are not entitled to sex.

    Even, of course, when absolutely no men outside of these serial killers themselves are claiming any kind of sexual ‘entitlement’ whatsoever.

  30. @ deti – Your argumentation is the kind of tedious parsing which pervades the internet and is of no value. You make a distinction without a difference. I’m not writing an academic treatise, and if I wanted to, I could parse all the logic and wording of every comment here and show how it’s “wrong” – but I don’t do that because it adds no value.

    I never said women were entitled to anything – you are just making that up to go off on your rant. My point was that my failure to be masculine and alpha shortchanged my ex in the context of my marriage, which is an explicit contract between two people and contains obligations. I didn’t want to be single – I wanted to be a father, head of household and a husband. If I had known then what I know now, I bet I’d still be married and my wife would have been much happier as I would have kept up my mystery, my dominance, my attractiveness and not tried to be her “friend”. I would have been more comfortable maintaining my frame – for my entire family’s benefit.

    Think about it. An entire family was destroyed and my daughter pays the price cuz I don’t know how to deal with a high SMV woman. I’m not beating myself up, I’m looking realistically at my own culpability. Obviously this activates something in you, which is your issue, not mine.

  31. Rollo:

    When I say that a man isn’t entitled to sex, I’m talking here about single men operating in this environment; and increasingly, men who are married to women who deprive them of sex. I don’t want to get into the whole “married men are entitled to sex” thing because that’s beyond the scope of the point I’m trying to make.

    The point is that single men and single women aren’t entitled to anything — they have to earn what they want; prove themselves worthy of what they want. Yet, I constantly read posts and comments from disgruntled women stating that they “deserve” commitment and believe themselves “worthy” of commitment and “entitled” to it.

    They don’t “deserve” commitment and they’re not “entitled” to commitment. They are “worthy” of commitment only to the extent a man deems that to be the case.

    I read legions of posts on Facebook where girls egg each other on, talking about how they “deserve” a man who loves them.

    No, they don’t “Deserve” a man who loves them and cares for them. They might get those things; but that does NOT mean they “deserved” it. It only means a man decided to give them those things for whatever reason — in an exchange for sex, to validate her, to attempt to get sex, whatever.

    And if we are going to live in a world in which a woman decides that she has given sex in exchange for commitment; and then decides to withhold sex, then a man is fully justified in withholding his continued commitment. And he is within his rights in withdrawing commitment. He can and should withdraw monetary support, time spent with her, resources allocated to her, attention given to her, and continued fidelity to her.

  32. @BadP – Wow, great response. Yes, the mourning period is tough. But it does end. And guess what? Deep down inside you there is an authentic you who is interested and passionate about things other than being a family man. One of the things I’ve done to re-ignite some of my passions is to revisit my childhood in my mind and try to remember what I dreamed about.

    I’m a victim of serious physical abuse and had PTSD and concommitant anxiety and sleep disorders from it by the time I was 8. I was not diagnosed at the time, obviously, but even at age 8 I could not sleep (a recurring, terrifying nightmare was my nightly companion). I found that if I laid in bed and pretended I was on a sailboat sailing in the ocean that I could finally fall off to sleep. It’s such a sweet, positive association for me for some reason. I can bring up the state in my mind even today, and it was such a respite from the terror I lived in as a child.

    So guess what? I have a 10 year goal of being in good enough financial shape to take off at least 2 years when I’m 61 to cruise the world sailing (been a sailor for my whole life). Dreams, things that make you smile, what are you interested in? Fyi, if your kids are grown you can really change your life around. Where you live, expenses etc. Do you love history? Take some courses. Politics? Run for local office? Been putting off that wood working shop you wanted to create in your basement? Want to make that table finally? Or do you want to play poker tournaments?

    It’s not easy, and I find that internal motivations are hard for me to even see sometimes as I’m so used to looking externally. I was so used to dealing with my life as a series of “have to’s” that I couldn’t even come up with what I “wanted” out of life. A nice side benefit of this is that women are very attracted to inner directed men. The mystery and inability to shove them off their frame and priorities makes you a contest worth winning to them. I’ve found a basic truth that Rollo punches home all the time to be so right. Women hate you for trying to qualify with them – so why not stop? When you do, some of them will start qualifying with you, I promise and that is more fun that you’ve had in a long time, BadP.

  33. I don’t see the disconnect between Glenn and Deti. Assuming the man values the woman’s non-physical qualities and wants her as a partner, he should understand the basic mechanics of her hypergamy. Hypergamy is not good or bad….it just is. Hence, the ability of the man to maintain frame and confidence is the oil that fuels the engine of the relationship and the family. Not every woman, even high SMV woman, is a crazy hypergamous con artist..and her positive qualities can make the man’s life much better than without..but hypergamy is a feature in every woman just as an engine is to a car….you need to take care of the engine….you need to take care of frame. That’s it.

  34. Glenn:

    “I never said women were entitled to anything”

    OK, but you did say this:

    “My ex was a hard 9. Prom queen, homecoming queen – high smv, did she not deserve a high smv alpha male who treated her like a prize?

    No, she didn’t deserve a high SMV alpha. No, she didn’t deserve a man who treats her like a prize. She might be able to get those things on the open market, but that doesn’t mean she deserves them. The term “deserves” suggests worthiness. Others decide what we’re worthy of and have earned on the open SMV market.

    We do not confer worthiness on ourselves. We are worthy only to the extent others deem it. From a sexu standpoint, a man “deserves” only that which women decide he deserves in the SMP. From a commitment standpoint, a woman “deserves” only that which a particular man is willing to give her based on her “worthiness” as he deems it to be.

    It’s not useless parsing; it’s very important to understand in terms of how intersexual relationships work.

    Moreover, a woman isn’t entitled to a high SMV alpha male in the context of a marriage, nor does she deserve one. The marital contract entails the following from a traditional standpoint: Man is obligated to protect and provide for the woman and her children. Purpose: to keep woman and children safe andto preserve the species. Woman is obligated to give the man exclusive sexual access to her body at reasonable intervals. Purpose: To free up the man to pursue his mission so he doesn’t have to think about sex; to allow him to attend undistracted to the protector/provider role; and to give him reasonable assurances that the children born of the marriage are his, such that his resources are not wasted.

    There’s nothing in that arrangement that says the man has to be a high SMV alpha male, or earn six figures, or have a chiseled physique or a V-shaped torso, or spit lots of competent Game. There’s also nothing in that arrangement that says the woman has to have 38D breasts,, a .7 waist hip ratio, or be the man’s preferred female specimen of feminine beauty.

  35. “A good counter question for the “men are not entitled to / do not deserve sex” trope is “Then what would you suggest a man should do if he wants to become intimate with a woman and get laid?””

    “I guarantee you that 98% of the responses you receive will be some form of Just Be Yourself, or their interpretation of the same Beta identification Game the faux Nice Guys® (who really just wanna fuck because they think they’re “owed” sex) they despise have been told will make them attractive to women.”

    I suppose that could be, Rollo, but a response like that to the “what should a man do?” question would make no sense at all. The rational response I might expect would be “he needs to work on his inner game. Improve his confidence. Get good at something. Improve his physical appearance. Lose the weight. Be the best version of himself he can be. Walk away from girls who aren’t giving you what you want and need.”

    It’s much like the question I might expect if someone asked me “what would you suggest a woman do if she wants commitment from a man she’s attractedto?” I might suggest that she stop slutting around and if she isn’t, then don’t put out for him right away, and show that she has sexual value by not giving it away freely and without expecting something in return. Cultivate domestic skills and show that she can take care of a high value attractive man. Show loyalty and fidelity to him by offering exclusivity. Be nice and kind to him.

  36. I don’t want to get into the whole “married men are entitled to sex” thing because that’s beyond the scope of the point I’m trying to make.

    I don’t see why not. It’s standard legislation that even in marriage a woman can be ‘raped’ if she’s forced by her husband to have sex against her will. There is no ‘entitlement’ to sex within marriage or out of it.

    In other words, don’t ‘expect’ sex for anything.

  37. “Then what would you suggest a man should do if he wants to become intimate with a woman and get laid?”

    Do daily disciplined inner work, get out of his house/apt, go out every night, make connections with women AND men, seek to give/help/inspire others, develop excellent social skills, create an abundant social circle, approach women with sexual intent, learn how to communicate direct sexual intent tactfully to women he finds attractive, offer women opportunities to hook up…and reach out to more knowledgeable male mentors the next day when/if SHTF and he needs pointers on where he screwed up. Rinse, repeat the next day, etc.

    This comprehensive recommendation never assumes for a moment that a man is entitled to sex per se, nor is he deserving of sex from any one particular woman. But he will be worthy of sex with countless women, and he’ll believe that he is worthy, and in turn a great deal of women will want to have sex with him – even those women who are married/attached and cannot go through with it…

    I cannot see any good or ethical byproduct of presuming sexual entitlement in any situation. Always maintain your trump card – you can walk out any time, at your discretion. Maybe that is why I’m quietly anti-marriage, at least for myself.

  38. re: “A good counter question for the “men are not entitled to / do not deserve sex” trope is “Then what would you suggest a man should do if he wants to become intimate with a woman and get laid?””

    I unhelpfully suggest that the actual majority of responses from women would be: “Any man who has to ask such a question is should get no sex a tall.”

  39. I am not a big fan of conspiracy theories but this invasion and subversion of the educational and religious institutions played out like a well orchestrated plan. The banning of all male groups was obviously their plan from the beginning. Unfortunately, the manosphere is following the same path to perdition.

  40. On negotiated desire. Rollo is correct on this point as he almost always is but he misses an important fact.

    Desire cannot be negotiated BUT it CAN be compelled or commanded. In fact it must be, and that is a missing element.

  41. “I think it’s important that we don’t lose sight of the way men communicate, test each other, hone each other, give each other shit, etc. being primarily defined in the context of Bro Culture, douchebaggery, team sports, etc. That intra-male dynamic crosses so many social, racial and cultural strata it becomes an overarching threat to the Feminine Imperative.”
    This is what women who simply want to infiltrate don’t understand…that boys and men, when in a male-only or male-primary space, are different than when they are in the general public. The language is coarser, the jokes more sexual, the very ways of communication more to the point and less politically correct. This is just how it is. If you don’t like it, don’t go into male spaces. If you think you can handle in, remember that you’ll have to dish it out *and* receive it in equal amounts.

    This is how you can tell the serious nerds/gamers (who happen to be female bodied) from the gamer-grrls that want to be put on a pedestal and fawned over for “boldly going where no girl has gone before”. The feminine imperative is strong in the latter, as the former will happily join in with the ribbing/testing/”bro culture”/etc that comes with the territory. They will be one of the boys, and will enjoy every minute of it.

    Those who wish to insert themselves into a male space, not because of any shared interests or desire for camaraderie, but because it’s a group of men and they will provide an attention whore with a steady stream of white knighting and special treatment are the ones to watch out for. They will cringe and cry when the testing starts, claiming it’s misogynistic…They will decide that the Man Cave is too dirty, too loud, too dark, and attempt to alter it to their specifications…These “grrls” will see a male space like the manosphere or STEM fields and want to take control of it and twist it to suit them, rather than accepting that men and women have different rules/hierarchies and learn to play by these.

    Good job on fleshing out the dangers of F.I. women, Rollo. It is sorely needed.

  42. What should a man do to get laid? Find a woman who wants to bang him. Some women like overweight, nerdy, gamers…go to comic/electronics/gaming conventions and make it known that you are looking for sex, not friendship. Some women like brawny muscle heads…go to the gym every night, drink protein shakes, get ripped and make it known you’re looking for sex, not friendship. Some women like slight, sensitive guys…dress in form flattering ways, write poetry/learn to play an instrument, go to coffeehouses or theaters and make it known that you’re looking for sex, not friendship.

    I don’t want to say “just be yourself”, as this rarely works for either sex. But one can go a long way to gaining sexual satisfaction by properly identifying what subculture one belongs to and working to become the epitome of said subculture. If you are a skinny intellectual dude who’s into science and going to museums on the weekends, don’t try to become a gym rat. Likewise if you’re a geeky gal who’s into boardgames and cosplay, don’t try to become the head cheerleader.

    Stick with what you know, identify your knowledge base where you’ll be in your comfort zone (and thus be able to have natural game rather than desperately trying to remember things you don’t care about in order to impress the opposite sex), and work at becoming top dog in said field.

    I suppose a man or woman could attempt to squash their natural interests and likes/dislikes in order to gain a mate. Hell, doing so may even work and bag you a 9 instead of a 7, or a mansion instead of a normal house. But then you’ll be living a lie…your spouse will have fallen in love with a falsehood rather than a real person. What’s the point of *that*? Yeah, theoretically you will have what you want, but you likely will not have what you need.

  43. @Rollo

    “In other words, don’t expect sex for anything.”

    The concept of rape in a marriage (or any long term relationship involving sex, I suppose) is a touchy subject. On the one hand, I know of women who use sexual access as a literal tool to manipulate their husbands. This is immature and unacceptable…if you care about someone enough to marry them or stick with them for years, you should *want* to make them happy and give them pleasure. I’ve never *not* desired sex, but I truly can’t imagine that it’s difficult to give a decent blowjob or mediocre intercourse even if your head’s “not in the game”. Think of it more as a thank-you than a chore…

    On the other hand, I’ve known men who believe they “deserve” access to their wife’s body at any given moment, regardless of how she feels. I recall one of my mother’s friends who came over crying one day because her husband had pinned her down and raped her, despite the fact she was still recuperating from giving birth to their child via C-section and she was terrified he had torn some of her stitches (he did, but it was repairable). They divorced less than 2 years after that, and I cannot fault her. I would not have stayed with someone who cares more about 15 min of pleasure than my physical well-being either. Again, if you care about someone enough to marry them, why would you want to see them in pain or make them cry/scream? That’s not love…that’s literal sadism and cruelty.

    Both men and women need to get their heads out of their asses and remember that sexual intimacy isn’t a frickin form of manipulation or a right. It’s a gift of love, pleasure, connection, and vulnerability to be shared between two people who care for one another.

    1. @ Tarnished – “The concept of rape in a marriage (or any long term relationship involving sex, I suppose) is a touchy subject” – What the fuck are you talking about? It isn’t touchy, it’s rape. I’ve been in a marriage where foreplay was reduced to 2 hours of begging and pleading. My most – and last – pathetic moment with her was when I said, at age 29, “Just let me fuck you and I’ll stop bothering you”. BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA. That was my moment, and I stopped. I actually then started spinning plates but realized I didn’t want to be married and cheating on the side, it’s not how I’m built. So I put the pressure on my ex to get in or get out or our marriage, and instead she jumped on the nearest alpha to ride who made her wet. That marriage ended in disaster too, eventually, so really, in the end, I’m starting to get how lucky I was that she moved on. She wore him down to a nub, whereas I reclaimed my dignity (if little else).

      A woman stops fucking an alpha? She knows he’ll get it elsewhere. Abundance mentality, some “dread”, no negotiating intimacy or desire, maintaining frame – these are the actions that a man can take (Rollo has written extensively on this). Otherwise he can complain and feel sorry for himself, and occasionally get begrudging, bad sex. Rollo says it best, you can’t negotiate desire. And rape is the ultimate imposition of terms in a sexual “negotiation”, yes?

      That anyone can say this is “touchy” bewilders me. That is actually rape apologia, Tarnished – do you not realize that? The more I hang around the manosphere, the more I see many men with incredibly fucked up ideas about the world and morality. It’s no wonder many people conclude this is a misogynistic swamp. Just read what men say here….

      1. @Glenn

        Thank you. I agree with you, in that rape is rape…forcing sex on someone else is disgusting and revolting (which I thought I made clear in my last paragraph…apologies if it didn’t come through that way?).

        To be honest, I only phrased it the way I did because I am usually called something along the lines of a cock-teasing whore or manipulative bitch when I say that marital rape is a real issue. I’ve been accused not only of being a feminist, but of thinking it’s acceptable for men to be stuck in sexless relationships. I am not and do not, but you are the very first person in my 4 years of reading and commenting in the manosphere who has agreed with me.

        I hope that you reread the rest of my comment, and I am sorry if my terminology offended your sensibilities. In attempting to adapt to the language of the blogs I frequent, it appears I’ve gone too far and now sound misogynistic. Thank you for pointing this out so I can be more careful in the future.

        Also, I am sympathetic to the fact you were in a relationship where you had to literally beg for sex. That was very cruel on her part, and I’m thrilled to see from your other comments that you are in a better place now. My lover has declined sex with me about 5 times in the 7+ years we’ve been FwB, but he did so because he was sick, not to be manipulative. And I was only too happy to masturbate rather than get upset about the lack of sex.

        Like I mentioned before, if you care for someone you want to make them happy. Sometimes this involves compromise, and I’m pleased to make the acquaintance of someone else who realizes this.

      2. @Glenn

        Just wanted to note that I also agree with you that certain parts of the manosphere (but definitely not all) can be very misogynistic and gynophobic. For someone like myself, who is not only gender dysphoric but also cares a great deal about the men and boys in their life, I interact with these blogs to get more information about how to help my friends and brothers navigate such a fem-centric culture. Some of it I agree with, some of it I don’t, some of it is pure anger and sexism without logic behind it. It seems I’ve ingested too much of this last part if a survivor of 7 years of childhood rape/molestation can be accused of “rape apologia”… It won’t happen again.

      3. Glenn-

        Sorry if my response was kind of brash before. It was a major shock to my system to be called out for sounding like a rape apologist…Had to go wash after that. Looking forward to possibly hearing more from you.

  44. Why is this “disturbing”? The charts reflect normal expectations, their results should not surprise anyone, they are already blatantly self evident without “research”.

    Let’s analyze this from a productive positive point of view. The charts are based on the average cross section of males and females participating with “OKCupid”. There are two characteristics about “OKCupid” participants we can safely assume are factual. (1) “OKCupid” participants are unable or unwilling to meet and form relationships with people in their daily lives and hook up, so…THEY CHOOSE to resort to “internet dating”. (2) “OKCupid” participants are physically representative of the average population. The average American is overweight, lazy and…lets face it…..sexually unattractive. Only SOME of the young and the physically fit are really attractive. Everyone drools over them.

    People who resort to internet dating are mitigated by one reason or another from forming relationships with others they already come into contact with in their daily lives, otherwise they would not resort to internet dating. They are not “getting out there” forming bonds and friendships, etc. This failure to form relationships with others they already come into contact with can be caused by one or more conditions. They could be unattractive, too busy with work and other responsibilities and attempting to expedite the process of qualifying a potential mate, trying to hook up “out of their league”, currently have no acceptable options, or psychologically impaired. No matter what the condition or excuse is, the fact remains they are not forming relationships with others they already come into contact with and they are CHOOSING the internet.

    And now comes the positive part of this.The chart results should not disturb anyone. What should disturb us is what we see in the mirror if we are unhealthy, fat, out of shape or if we have some psychological hang up. The only way to improve your life is take action and make positive real changes. This is what YOU do WITH YOURSELF. Regardless of age, the fact is if you take initiative, exercise regularly, eat healthy, are physically fit, and maintain a positive attitude, your attractiveness is exponentially higher. You and your “significant other” will enjoy each other in every way, sexually and otherwise, far more than fat unhealthy slobs with negative attitudes and excuses that accomplish nothing. Don’t be a slob. Make yourself the best you can be. This is your ONLY option and you LIVE ONLY ONCE.

    .

  45. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    If what you suggest is true about women primarily wanting to be the first woman what explains the 2-nth woman to do something.

    I agree women are uncomfortable with male only spaces but that does not explain all that we are seeing. Women have their own interests beyond the feminine imperative just like I do.

    I agree that woman like to invade male spaces but sometimes they just want to play golf. No doubt once in a “club” they try to feminize it. Women are taking over some professions like medicine. They work less and fill lots of the easier specialties. They also fill lots of the higher ones and they make great doctors – it is cognitively a great fit (memorizing not thinking, high on compassion and communication). Medicine has already been radically feminized – or said another way made more convenient for women. But most of that was probably unintentional.

    Random comment on the virgin thing – if you have any interest in marriage stay a virgin until marriage. You increase your odds of marital success. Having sex is great but with even a modicum of self control you can (if that is your goal) stay a virgin until marriage. Sex is not so great nor is sex drive so great that i would sublimate any other goals to sex drive. If you don’t have any interest in marriage and just want to move to non virgin status any of the above methods will work.

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  51. i always wondered why is it that its ok for females to use males washroom and womens washrooms use by men is prohibited

  52. Become a Muslim (and there’s a lot of room for different versions) and you will always be in a good “male space”. Western humanity is doomed.

    1. Islam exploits men’s sexual nature for its own violent ends. Christianity has become feminized and similarly exploits men’s sexual nature to serve the Feminine Imperative.

      No thanks.

  53. Rollo, you touched upon some really good ideas but there is one that also needs considering in regards to feminine imperative’s surveillance.

    The real reason why women want to invade male spaces is because, women have to make sure that Alphas and Betas have the least amount of possibilities of interacting with each other. If they were to meet, and exchange tips, experiences and strategies, women would be absolutely screwed. The Betas could potentially learn what Alphas do to get laid,, and what women hate more than anything in this world is a former Beta guy now getting unplugged and red-pilled, and using this newly acquired power to get her to open her legs. In her mind, the poor chap was destined to forever be a servant of the imperative with perpetual blueballs, NOT to be unplugged. He is by her definition mimicking Alpha behavior…the knowledge that he was NEVER SUPPOSED to have access to, as he would no longer dutifully fulfill his role that was set out for him in the society. Were he ever allowed to procreate, the “poor woman” would be a victim of a crime most vile…being impregnated with beta genes that masqueraded as Alpha genes. Her Hypergamy gets duped, and she will never forgive herself such an error. And thus she must keep men ignorant of the hierarchy and the imperative.

    1. Misunderstanding intrasexual testing and conflating male dominance hierarchies with ‘bullying’ is the first reflex of a guy conditioned to think in a feminized mindset. This is exactly what a feminine-primary social order wants you to believe because the more confused you are about conventional masculinity the easier you are to control and categorize as a Beta provider.

  54. Women never compromise on female only spaces – where men are not allowed unless he’s Alpha God, and even the alpha god is off bounds for anything else other than sex. Any man who tries to end up in a female only space gets to be treated like a guy who accidentally stepped into the ladies bathroom.

    The presence of a woman in a male space immediately puts significant restraints on male freedom. If Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus is correct, when men actively pull away to a male space, women experience it as a kind of rejection. However for a man, pulling away is absolutely necessary to give him the freedom to be himself unadulterated, as a man is compromising his freedom and his options to be with a woman. Whereas the reverse is not true – women need to get closer for intimacy.

    However, as soon as even a single girl is in the group, it creates all sorts of complications.

    There are also other reasons. Women actually do feel threatened by what they feel is a build up of masculine power that does not serve the feminine imperative. They also (and this is AWALT) feel that men are having all the fun and not letting them be a part of it.

    The fluid nature of a woman’s mind (with the associated increased potential for cognitive dissonance between what they consciously and subconsciously are) means that intrinsically, they are not as aware of the differences between men and women as acutely as men are. This is one of my own personal findings.

    So anyway, as per what I red on TRP, RIP the boy scouts, the last publicly known bastion of male space.

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