Our Sisters’ Keeper

sister's_keeper

“Men are to blame for women’s behavior. The Feminine Imperative only has as much power as men have allowed it to have. Hypergamy (open or otherwise) wouldn’t be the unrestrained social juggernaut it’s become without men’s complicity or accomplice.”

This quote is a go-to rationalization I read a lot from women just coming to terms with their first taste of the Red Pill. Unfortunately it’s also become a common refrain among certain sets in the manosphere; this rationale is usually particular to the moral absolutist strains of the manosphere.

When I read it from women it’s kind of ironic considering it usually comes from women who share in the same moral absolutism, who were “so different when they were in college”, but they’ve had their Epiphany and “got right with God.” They often cling to the Strong Independent® identity for themselves, but turn over a rock and show them the visceral, observable, ugly truth of unfettered Hypergamy and then, then it’s men’s partial or total responsibility for fostering women’s conditions.

It becomes men’s fault for not having the fortitude and presence of mind to correct them when they needed it – never mind the lifetime of Blue Pill conditioning that taught them judging women made them misogynistic assholes. I understand axiom that men and women get the men and women they deserve, but I wanted to explore this blame game dynamic a bit more.

From Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany:

The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.

When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.

As I was writing the Adaptations series it occurred to me that men on the ends of both the Alpha and Beta spectrum adapt their own sexual strategies in accord with the sexual marketplace and how that environment dictates the approach to what seems the most efficient.

As I stated in the last post, Hypergamy is nothing if not pragmatic, and efficient. However, men’s adapting to the “market” dictates of Hypergamy has to be equally efficient if that guy is to fulfill his own sexual imperative. Pragmatism doesn’t have time for how things should be. You make the best play with what’s in front of you.

Just to illustrate, for about 25 years or so, popular culture strongly pointed men towards a sexual strategy that could be defined as Beta Game. Play nice, respect a woman by default, be supportive of her self-image and ambitions to the sacrifice of your own, don’t judge her and do your utmost to identify with the feminine, was the call to action that, deductively, should make a man more attractive to a woman.

Furthermore, the intrasexual combat amongst men for sexual qualification was (at least ostensibly) focused on out-supporting, out-sympathizing, out-emoting and out-identifying with the feminine more so than other men. To set oneself apart from “other guys” the seemingly most strategic tact was to accept what women said they wanted from men. To pragmatically effect this men gladly joined the chorus of ridiculing conventional masculinity; denouncing and resisting the very element that would in fact have set them apart from the nebulous “other guys“.

So while this is an illustration of men’s deductive pragmatism in their adapting to the SMP, it’s also an illustration of how that adaptation can work against men’s best interests. Between the 80s, 90s and into the early 2000s this adaptation involved men following women’s lead to systematically turn conventional, positive masculinity into ridiculous or gay-associations of “macho-ness”. Later, defining the very idea of masculinity would progress from ambiguousness to women being the sole authority of what masculinity should mean to a man.

Women and Moral Agency

For as long as I’ve read and commented on Christo-Manosphere blogs a common thread has cropped up again and again; the debate as to whether women have the same moral agency or the same accountability for it as men. I’ve always found it fascinating because for all my dealing in cold harsh observable facts I’ve never paused to consider that women might have some excusable reason for their ethically challenged behavior. In my own estimate Hypergamy isn’t inherently bad or good – it just depends on whether you find yourself on the sharp end of it.

My point here isn’t to reheat that debate, but rather to see how it feeds into the rationale that men are in some way responsible for what contemporary women have become, and how they’ll progress if men don’t assume some responsibility for women’s behaviors.

Hypergamy is pragmatic, but it’s also inherently duplicitous. It’s unjust and unforgivable to a guy who doesn’t measure up to his burden of performance. When you consider the War Brides dynamic it’s downright reprehensible, but we have to also consider the pragmatism in that dynamic. From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there was a high price to pay for infractions of it – but are we presuming our concept of justice is one that’s universally common to that of women?

Much in the same way we were Blue Pill conditioned to presume that our idealistic concept of love was mutually shared by women I would propose that men’s concepts of justice, honor, and (from an intrasexual perspective) respect are dissimilar from those of women.

For women, whatever actions serve Hypergamy are justifiable actions.

All that needs to be sorted out is reconciling those action with the concept of justice held by men. In the intersexual arena, what best serves men’s imperatives is justice. Up until the sexual revolution the balance between the sexes’ concepts of justice was mitigated by mutual compromise – each had something to lose and something to gain by considering the other sex’s imperatives.

For roughly the past 70 years this balance between the two concepts has listed heavily to the feminine. Our age has been defined by women’s unilateral and ubiquitous control of Hypergamy, and as such it is women’s sexual imperatives that is biologically and sociologically setting the course for future generations.

Along with that unprecedented control comes the prioritizing of women’s concept of justice above that of men’s. We can see this evidenced in every law, social convention or social justice movement that entitles women to rights and privileges that free them of any accountability for the negative consequence their Hypergamously based behavior would hold them to in a concept of justice that men would have.

I would also argue that women’s inherent solipsism reinforces this separation of concepts of justice between the sexes.

Rivelino had a good take on this on Twitter:

1 The woman is always the victim

2 Nothing is her fault

3 She is not responsible for her actions

4 A man is to blame

To which I’ll add a 5th: Any fault is always a ‘strength’.

The problem I see in assigning the blame of women’s behavior to men’s lack of control is that, presently, men have no real control nor does men’s concept of justice align with that of women. There’s a manosphere idiom that says women are the gatekeepers of sex while men are the gatekeepers of commitment. I’m not sure I completely agree with that.

That’s not to be defeatist, or an endorsement of a MGTOW course of action, but it is to say that if a man has neither the sex appeal to be a short term sexual prospect nor the provisioning appeal to be a long term investment, women feel entirely justified in acting in the best interests of Hypergamy and controlling his capacity for commitment as well.

And yes, that’s pretty fucked up if you, again, find yourself on the sharp end of it. Men’s adapting to the intersexual conditions set by women isn’t some deterministic prospect, but the idea that the mass majority of men would be responsible for the state women find themselves in is ludicrous. There will always be men willing to accept the sexual dictates of women because it serves their breeding imperatives. It’s good for him personally and it’s good for the species.

There will never be some global Lysistrata where men organize in solidarity, promising not to fuck another woman until they comply with demands that would place the Masculine Imperative above that of the feminine’s. Our own biology guarantees it.

Personal Responsibility

On a final note here, whenever I delve into the ethical implications of Red Pill awareness I invariably run into the personal responsibility equation. I do my best to make as coldly rational an observation of dynamics I see and allow my readers to make their own judgements. However, those observation are never intended to excuse the behaviors men and women find themselves prone to acting out.

There is always a want on the part of either sex to see their concept of justice enacted on those who would act against it. Thus you get honor killing in the Muslim world, and you have men’s access to the DNA testing of children they suspect aren’t their own denied in the “best interest of the child.”

So are men to blame for the conditions they find their women in? Are we our sisters’ keepers, hamstrung by our own culpability to actually help them be better women? Or do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses of a Hypergamy most are only peripherally aware of?

 

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sjfrellc
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sjfrellc

How bout we not talk about race or religion and just talk about getting laid?

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong

@sjfrellc

How bout we not talk about race or religion and just talk about getting laid?

I’d do exactly that if people would stop putting their religious dicks in the rational mashed potatoes.

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

I meant for Mike to STFU because he is going on and on and on.

Sun Wukong– you are doing an admirable job of refuting. Definitely not faulting you. I did the same when insanewoman was going on and on because it was amusing how stupid the remarks were and you gotta practice for when some real intelligent douchebag comes along.

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

I’m not advocating for shutting down discussion. Just when it becomes a stuck record which is where I see this discussion has devolved.

Mike
Guest
Mike

@Sun Wukong: “It’s a reasonable assumption to make that God does not exist, but you insist on absolutes for him to not exist. You won’t step out a window despite a miniscule chance you could be right, but you’ll trust in God’s incredibly doubtful existence to make equally weighty (excuse the pun) decisions about your life despite the extremely likely chance that you’re wrong.” Our experience with gravity really helps to support the assumption that jumping out a high window will result in a fall. And as Jesus said to Satan in the wilderness, “It is written, thou shalt not… Read more »

The Diplomat
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The Diplomat

@sjf

I’m admittedly agnostic, but I find the debate here to be a constructive demonstration of textbook rationalism vs. superstitious absolutism. Conversations like this teach us all to think more critically (like men), rather than to construct arguments based on feelings as facts (like women).

And, yes, my first thought when Mike appeared was that he might well be an associate of IB. Good call.

Well, Mike…are you?

Mike
Guest
Mike

@Rollo: “Did the prodigal son reap what he’d sown?” No, because he repented. Pharaoh, for example, did not, and he did. Same with the man who buried his talents. “Human beings can’t know what absolute justice really is. Justice is whatever balances a perceived injustice and that injustice is perceived according to our interests.” Acknowledging the interests of others is only possible via appeal to absolute justice. “This thread is getting sidetracked with absolutes. It’s easy to consider justice when we think of things as tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye, but that’s not God’s justice… Read more »

Mike
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Mike

No, absolute justice is objective. It is the same for everyone. The fact that we can’t always see things from each other’s perspectives does not change that.

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

“You will all reap what you sow.”

If I sow Sofia Vergara , I don’t care about the reap.

Mike
Guest
Mike

Obviously, a person’s opinion regarding what is just in a certain situation may be distorted by their own interests and not actually fair and equitable. That’s why we often need third-parties to arbitrate disputes. The third-party is given the task of finding a solution that is closer to the most perfect, objective, absolute justice than those involved in the dispute.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@Mike

You keep using that word “objective.” I do not think it means what you think it means.

Mike
Guest
Mike

And God is the ultimate arbitrator. Nevertheless, his justice is no different from ours. The only difference is that he has all of the facts and is always able to hit the target we are aiming at. We may be way off but the target is still the same one.

Mike
Guest
Mike

@The Diplomat:

Inconceivable!

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@Mike

Arbiter. You meant ‘arbiter.’

Slightly different thing than an arbitrator.

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/ot_list.html

Read about the holly books.
Enjoy.

Mike
Guest
Mike

No, I meant arbitrator as I was referring to the previous comment about a third-party given the task of finding a solution to a specific dispute. My point was that God, being morally perfect and having absolute knowledge of the matter, knows absolute justice while we have to estimate. Although, he is the final arbiter as well.

By the way, I know what “objective” means too there buddy. Thanks for the help but try focusing on the actual message please.

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

The Diplomat July 18th, 2015 at 6:12 pm Well said. Good distinction. Mike, I’ve never had a day in my life where I couldn’t hold both scientific and religious/spiritual beliefs and be completely comfortable with textbook rationalism vs. faith/mother nature/God/religious tenets. That being said. Your friend Insanitybitch2 showed up here like a wine swilling guest at a dinner party and repeated insults over and over, talked over the host of this blog and generally acted like an ass. Don’t be the dinner party guest that can’t go with a flowing, changing discussion and keep harping on the same thing like… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong

@The Diplomat

… wow. After those two I’ve come to the conclusion that watching Mike argue is like watching Corky get laid: fucking retarded.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/230/505/023.jpg

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

“My point was that God, being morally perfect and having absolute knowledge of the matter, knows absolute justice while we have to estimate. Although, he is the final arbiter as well.” You agree that God have a past and future archives of what is going to happen to me, Mr T. So bullshits me with the free will to fuck Sofia! What free will I had when he already had me fucking her in his future archives about me fucking her and then punishing me? I know, you’d say it’s the devil, but didn’t the devil’s name was next to… Read more »

Mike
Guest
Mike

@sjfrellc:

There is noting more important than the issues I have been discussing with you all here, which I believe are also extremely relevant to the changes in social and intersexual dynamics to which we are all trying to adapt. I am not really interested in discussing anything else. It is all utterly irrelevant without God anyway. I truly hope that some of you come to see that. However, I do not want to be rude either so will go ahead and leave now.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat
redlight
Guest
redlight

now that this comment thread has turned everyone into a lot of pillars of salt, except for Mike, I found it interesting to change up the Salon/Alternet quote (see a few hundred comments back) to this: “We have a romantic ideal in which we turn to one person to fulfill an endless list of needs,” the therapist says. “To be my greatest lover, my best friend, the best parent, my trusted confidant, my emotional companion, my intellectual equal. And I am it: I’m chosen, I’m unique, I’m indispensable, I’m irreplaceable, I’m the one. And overt hypergamy tells me I’m not.… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

“…….which I believe are also extremely relevant to the changes in social and intersexual dynamics to which we are all trying to adapt.”

Nothing personal, but there is a big difference in a bottoms up (micro) approach to men’s issues vs. a top down approach (macro).

Some of us are out to save our asses rather than our souls. Not that there is anything wrong with our souls (in an amoral discussion).

Thank you for trying.

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

The sad thing religious betas think Hypergamy care about God.
Hypergamy doesn’t care how much you love God.
Remember that women love men and God in opportunistic kind of love.
I doubt women are able to love God or men. I think deep inside, women hate God and I wonder whether they view him as an alpha or beta or who the fuck know how they truly view him.

theasdgamer
Guest

Ah, so now we know that you are a racist cunt too. And you’re a commie fag. P I just shit down their throats relentlessly. Where does 5h1t come from? @$$holes. You’re a commie fag @$$hole. Just using the words out of your cum-laden Progressive piehole. Go suck someone else’s c0ck. For the childrennnn. Fakk, you are so idiotic demanding that men pay to support women’s childrennnn. Women own the children under our current matriarchal system, dumb@$$. The truth is simple; the difference in social outcomes between the black and white working class in our society is marginal. Uh, no.… Read more »

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

Women are masters at going full blown solipistic with the all mighty when it comes to Hypergamy.

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

@ Mr T July 18th, 2015 at 8:30 pm How a woman perceives her man or her God is the key. Religiosity is based on faith and respect. I am neutral on what others think about Religiosity. I have a God, but my god transcends any organized religion by far. I really have god that is rationality and Mother Nature. Mother Nature is a perfectly antifragile non-caring perfect construct. She doesn’t operate like human mothers who care for her children (if they are not screwed up in the mind) with unconditional love. Mother Nature is out to preserve her god… Read more »

Novaseeker
Guest
Novaseeker

It is all utterly irrelevant without God anyway. I truly hope that some of you come to see that. However, I do not want to be rude either so will go ahead and leave now. There are readers who agree that it is irrelevant without God, including me. However, this venue is not the place to discuss that. It’s a neutral place, by design of the host. He allows all kinds of conversation here, but it isn’t a place that bends towards our 30k foot perspective. There are Christians here, but it isn’t fundamentally a Christian place, but one where… Read more »

The Diplomat
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The Diplomat

Well said, Novaseeker. If anyone here still doesn’t get that hypergamy doesn’t give a damn about the existence/non-existence of a deity, then that individual would be well advised to stop commenting and start reading.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

Hells bells. I’ll try HTML this time.

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

The thing most religious beta don’t understand is ; the way beta love God(whether sincere or to wait for Sofia Vergara ) is different than the way women love him.

Loving whatever God you chose doesn’t make you arousing , it is the same if you have a million dollars and no tingles.

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

My comment goes to Theaassgamer (whatever the fuck your name is)

Bravo, ,BOY.
How old are you?
18 ? 22?
You go BOY.
Stick to playing video games.
Sometimes I hate democracy and Internet that allows kids like you express their nuisance varmint opinion .
Ps
Where is your dad BOY.

Not Born This Morning
Guest

Back to primary concerns here. I just read The Paradox of Commitment. Had not seen this one before, excellent analysis of the subject, as usual I mostly agree and appreciate your work. Understanding this paradox is crucial, due to reality of commitments. However, I would like to focus on one aspect of commitments not developed in your post. Commitments are like contracts where the parties agree on specific contributions each will make to the relationship (commitment). These contributions include specific behaviors, roles, efforts, assets to be shared or exchanged. LTR commitments are only established when both parties consider these contribution… Read more »

Tom...
Guest
Tom...

@Sun Wukong Regarding muslims, are you talking about Americanized muslims or the ones in the Gulf and Asia? There are some very rich conservative Wahhabi muslims in Saudi Arabia. They still take their religion quite seriously. @stationarity I can agree with you that it is a father’s responsibility to raise his daughter properly. And as you say, it is easier to check the growth of hypergamous impulses earlier in a child’s development. However, I just cannot hold modern western men wholly culpable for the present situation. There are too many forces sapping his strength. I place 30 percent of the… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

It’s people! The state is made out of people!

Dan
Guest
Dan

white men gone,men gone,women gone,a.i.archontic robots rule/gone as mother earth blows anthopos10 back to ploroma indigestion.next.

Dan
Guest
Dan

lol .anthropos 10 . unfortunately anthropos 11 never emerged.

theasdgamer
Guest

IFITGD of Mr. Bling.

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

@’Dan’

u off ur meds chokmah?

Badpainter
Guest
Badpainter

Rollo – “In fact, if you really want to run Black Knight Game, watch your religious girl’s Facebook posts and Tweets for appeals to God or her friend’s sympathies; that’s when she’ll be open to imaginings about how you were sent by God to save her from her loneliness.”

Now that’s some subversive shit. Or maybe following that course is just a small part of God’s unknowable plan.

70'sAntiHero
Guest

The idea of GOD doesn’t pass logical muster. . . If you hold that God is some sort of benevolent super conscious that created the universe then you can use the following exercise. . . The question of his/her existence can be reduced to a philosophical irreducible. . . . The Primacy of Existence vs. The Primacy of Consciousness. . . Which one comes first? In order to be conscious you must be aware of something. Something denotes existence. Existence comes first. Consciousness requires existence. Existence does not require consciousness. Religions requires subordination to a greater non provable, unfalsifiable mystical… Read more »

Longgone
Guest
Longgone

Softek, Kudos to you on the poon….BTW as I’ve told you before you express yourself far beyond the 83 IQ someone labeled you with. Either responding to scribbler and others here….spontaneously I might add, has improved your IQ and reading comprehension or someone’s lying (to you, to us?). In any case, you’re giving more than you take around here these days. Thanks. scribblerg, More FR’s soon please. Old-guy game is a bitch but it’s encouraging to see it exists. If I have any oldest-guy FR’s to post here I’ll probably need an identity “adjustment similar to yours. (Working on some… Read more »

Divided Line
Guest

@ Mike “The purpose of the scientific method is to create a FICTIONAL story to explain an observation then modify that story until it fits your observations as closely as possible. ” Falsification and the scientific method are identical to the Socratic method. A hypothesis is fictional, but we do not attempt to prove it, but to disprove it. If it holds up, then it has some degree of reliability. That’s the best you can do. That was the intended point of Socrates’s famous “I know nothing” bit. Socrates never argued that such and such was true, he simply weeded… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

The Teamspeak server is up in preparation for starting at 16:00.

Client can be downloaded here.

Server address is neo.themantable.net or 80.82.64.201.

Feel free to join to get sound issues worked out and meet others before we get started.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

“In fact, if you really want to run Black Knight Game, watch your religious girl’s Facebook posts and Tweets for appeals to God or her friend’s sympathies; that’s when she’ll be open to imaginings about how you were sent by God to save her from her loneliness.” In fact, if you are at all savvy with your PUA skills, you will always look for that hint of superstition, mysticism, or magical thinking in any girl who is attractive and potentially f*ckworthy. It’s not ‘Black Knight game’—it’s simply GOOD game to feed chick crack to the kitty kat. They love you… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@Sun

Wish I could be there for it. Break a leg.

Divided Line
Guest

@ sjfrellc “If a woman thinks she is better than you then she can’t respect you and if she can’t respect you she can’t love you. Women love men differently to the way men love women. Woman’s love is based on adoration, adoration is a combination of both explicit admiration and respect. Respect is derived from power. Thus it follows that you must be powerful if you want to be loved, or you will never be loved. You will be held in contempt for being weak.” In a nutshell, this is why feminism belongs on the proverbial ash heap of… Read more »

Divided Line
Guest

Ugh, that should have read: “we could all frolic in the sunshine OF A utopian gender equality playland if women made it possible for them to do so.”

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@Divided Line Blaming feminism and/or women for relentlessly pursuing their biological imperatives isn’t constructive. It’s a counterproductive male victim mentality that feeds on itself. Learning the ways of and internalizing the Red Pill will go a long way to ensuring that you are generally—if not always—perceived as ‘better.’ Attitude and bearing matter more than money, looks, or height in this regard. Literally, “be” better and women (even feminists) treat you veeeeeerrrrry differently. It certainly isn’t the easy road, but consider believing the alternative as you’ve stated above and having it be your reality. Wow. I guess I just answered the… Read more »

Divided Line
Guest

@ The Diplomat I’m not practicing game and I don’t read this blog in order to find a better means of relating to women. I’m just interested in how it all works and how it turned into the disaster it’s become. I fully admit to resenting women and I’ve for the most part given up relating to them. It’s not that I don’t think I can do it, since I’ve done it before, it’s just that I’m exhausted by it and no longer think it’s worth the effort. I’m old and tired and I don’t feel like doing it anymore.… Read more »

Divided Line
Guest

In regards to whose fault all of this is, if we think women are capable of being rational moral agents, then it is entirely their fault, since the social landscape we find ourselves in is entirely of their creation. We’re the ones who perform, not them. We are no more responsible for their expectations and desires than a potential employee who interviews for jobs is responsible for what employers require of them to have a shot at getting the job. I’ve argued elsewhere that I think women are perfectly capable of moral agency, but that we’ve given then a social… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@Divided Line Let’s look at it a couple ways: the first being from the point of view of a father who is responsible for raising a child that you are trying to teach how to be a conscientious adult. This improves the individual child and benefits society as a whole. You must provide and enforce consequences for bad behavior and reward good behavior. Most good parents think of this as their duty and not an ‘option.’ That’s a burden of responsibility to the unwritten social contract. Lots of people ‘opt out’ of this duty as you have no doubt noticed.… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

@Divided Line “Women are the real roadblock to equality. The majority of men would happily drop the burden of performance and we could all frolic in the sunshine of utopian gender equality playland if women made it possible for them to do so.” “So, from my perspective, I’m interested in who is to blame and so far as I can tell, it’s women that stand in the way of equality. If equality were possible, I think it would be great. What a shame it isn’t.” I would take issue with your Socratic premise. In social, political, and intersexual relations, women… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

Ilimitable Man MAXIM #24: “If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has accepted he is submissive and so she revels in the power her control gives her. If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her. And she will never forget his old ways. She will never really believe he is a worthy leader.” http://illimitablemen.com/2015/07/17/fifty-shades-of-red/ If the matriarchy experiences the submissive patriarchy trying to become dominant, the matriarchy will utterly oppose the patriarchy’s plans. The matriarchy has accepted that the patriarchy was submissive and… Read more »

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

Rollo

Who do you think is responsible?

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

Three men are responsible
1, fathers.
2,brothers.
3 , desperate BETAS.

Divided Line
Guest

@ sjfrellc

I don’t know that it’s really a Socratic premise. Socrates did say “make woman man’s equal and she becomes his superior.”

I don’t think any such equilibrium is possible in a post industrial revolution context. All that is possible is increasing male obligations and increasing female privilege. While there was something more like equilibrium once upon a time, let’s face it, men always got the worse end of the deal.

Omegasaurus Rex
Guest
Omegasaurus Rex

Alpha…Beta…Hypergamy…Game…Moral Agency…Fark it all, it hurteth my head.
3 days to go.
When I get back to town, I’ll be dusting off my omega skillz and heading for the whorehouse. Then a beer and a feed. Then up the mountains for a ski.

Novaseeker
Guest
Novaseeker

Socrates did say “make woman man’s equal and she becomes his superior.”

Well, that’s obvious, as lost as it is on most today. I mean, if you let women gain equality with men in the spheres where men previously dominated women, women will have an advantage, because there are other spheres which are dominated by women (taking men and women in the aggregate, not alpha males as compared with all women). It seems obvious enough, yet today virtually everyone is in denial of that.

Divided Line
Guest

@ The Diplomat “Yes, you can say “why is that MY problem?” and walk away from it. Nobody’s going to stop you. But if you do that, you forfeit your right to complain about how “unjust” the current state of affairs are.” Obviously it’s everybody’s problem, I just don’t believe I have a solution to it. If women are capable moral agents, then shouldn’t we be treating them as such? If they are capable of this, then it’s a matter of changing the public dialogue, I guess, but what else would be possible? And would this even be sufficient? I… Read more »

Divided Line
Guest

@ Novaseeker “Well, that’s obvious, as lost as it is on most today. I mean, if you let women gain equality with men in the spheres where men previously dominated women, women will have an advantage, because there are other spheres which are dominated by women (taking men and women in the aggregate, not alpha males as compared with all women). It seems obvious enough, yet today virtually everyone is in denial of that.” Women’s social power is always going to be conferred by their innate sexual value. Their power is rooted biologically and is guaranteed. Male power, by contrast,… Read more »

Longgone
Guest
Longgone

Divided Line

“I don’t have the answer. As for sounding like a whiny victim, I just don’t care.”

For someone that doesn’t care you seem to post a lot.

Longgone
Guest
Longgone

Divided Lie
“I just don’t believe I have a solution to it.”
“I have my doubts.”
“I don’t have the answer.”
“I just don’t care.”

Like many concern trolls……

Mr T
Guest
Mr T

I know how to cap Hypergamy.
Let it be the law of the land that makes washing pussy is a crime punishable by the death penalty.

Enjoy the smell.

Divided Line
Guest

@ Longgone

“For someone that doesn’t care you seem to post a lot.”

I already explained that I’m interested in understanding it. If it’s such a pain to read, you can help me post less by not making me repeat myself.

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

Sun Wukong hosted another sublime red pill experience last night. I expounded a bit both on record and off record about how getting through the Kubler-Ross stages of grief or unplugging are beneficial in moving on to “building your empire”. Without acceptance of red pill awareness or any of it’s praxeology, it is hard not to advance in your self improvement and be better at the Game that is life. These are bullet points from Wikipedia Kubler-Ross: “-The Kübler-Ross model postulates a series of emotional stages experienced by survivors of an intimate’s death, wherein the five stages are denial, anger,… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

This is a place of triage, support, and counsel for many broken, angry, despair-filled men to come and get help figuring it all out. I’m glad that Rollo keeps this venue open to everyone. Doesn’t matter what your deal is as long as you can put up with some unpretty truth-slinging. I was one of those broken and angry men when I first started lurking around here on TRM around two-and-a-half years ago. This place saved my bacon. I’m not angry anymore, and I have come to terms with the RP. That’s no small accomplishment at all. You’ve stuck around… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

“I’m not angry anymore, and I have come to terms with the RP. That’s no small accomplishment at all.”

Heheh. There it goes again. Another one accepts the dust.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@sjf

“The Dust.” I like that metaphor. Especially apt since I live in a desert.

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

There are plenty of ways that you can hurt a man
And bring him to the ground
You can beat him, you can cheat him
You can treat him bad and leave him when he’s down

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, I’m gonna get you, too
Another one bites the dust

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

Better to accept it and move on than to bite it.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

P.S. sjf
You promised you weren’t going to Scotch it up for the Man Table this time. I’m counting on you, Doc.

Divided Line
Guest

@ sjfrellc “6. Jaded* – MGTOW Permutations: “Fuck learning all these rules. Sex isn’t worth it and women aren’t that fun anyway. The last thing I want to do is learn routines or the 5 stages of pickup. There’s too many websites, too much to read, I can’t remember it all much less sort it all out. Who has all that time to go out and chat up women anyway? It’s not like I see any women under 40 at work at my engineering job to practice on. Video games and porn are more fun and more available. I just… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

“You promised you weren’t going to Scotch it up for the Man Table this time. I’m counting on you, Doc.” The proof will be in the pudding. I didn’t drink at all. Hopefully the sound of me chewing tobacco didn’t make it through to the microphone. And you be sure to tell me if I made any sense. The other guys sure did. And I want to make a disclaimer. Any information on single guy game or divorced guy game is interesting, very interesting, to me as a monogamous middle aged married man (as someone may ask why I engage… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

“If the bar for sexual access was lower, sure, but I don’t have ninja social skills and it seems like a lot of work to acquire them for something that is of questionable value. And I don’t personally value much of what we’re calling alpha traits. It’s not that I think they are worthless, but I’m personally indifferent. They aren’t things I personally strive for.” Ouch! Lower the bar through self improvement and game practice. Get better social skills. Be better at being a man for your own selfish reasons. Value masculine traits. You only have so many trips round… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@Divided 1) From here it looks like what you’re really angry at is that women aren’t actually the way you want them to be/were taught that they were ‘supposed’ to be. And you’re STILL pedestalizing them if you’re equating them with French aristocracy and yourself with the peasants. Not a constructive POV. So who are you really angry at now? Women? Society? Yourself? This is an important question for you to answer. 2) As far as putting on an “act” for women–once you’ve internalized the RP, it isn’t an act at all. It becomes your nature (Rollo has posited this… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

@sjf

I’m really looking forward to the latest Man Table. Glad it went so well. I’d really like to participate one of these days, schedule permitting.

longgone
Guest
longgone

“At least MGTOW holds the possibility of being able to spend my time and energy doing something I enjoy or care about, because doing the song and dance for women makes me want to blow my brains out at this point. I don’t even know if MGTOW is possible. I like to think it is. Maybe at some point I’ll find the MGTOW zen and no longer think or care about women. Unfortunately it hasn’t happened yet.” Didn’t mean to flip you off as I did, and owe an apology. I just wasn’t sure what you were saying earlier and… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

@The Diplomat “3) The next step in your situation-improvement scenario is making enlightened self-interest your first and only goal.” I like the term enlightened self-interest. Last night we discussed that issue, but using a more awkward term that Sun Wukong brought up as The Value of Time and being “selfish”. Self interest sounds better than the perjorative term selfish. (The value of time being like Kacey Musgrave’s lyric): “‘Cause you just get So many trips ’round the sun Yeah, you only Only live once” “4) Forget about chasing pussy for awhile. Your rage is scaring all the pussy off. Women… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

Another topic we briefly discussed in relationship to Divided Line’s mindset above was the topic of avoiding gumption traps when working on some task with inherent hurdles to overcome. Here is some background information on that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gumption_trap From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: “A gumption trap is an event or mindset that can cause a person to lose enthusiasm and become discouraged from starting or continuing a project. The word “gumption” denotes a combination of commonsense, shrewdness, and a sense of initiative. Although the last of these traits is the primary victim of the “gumption trap,” the first two suffer indirectly… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

Heh, well we sure turned on the advice spigot for Divided Line. Hey dude, I think the men who responded to your predicament recognize that you probably already know and have heard these things before. But hearing them again, in a new way, can be important. I’ll just add that it can be genuinely surprising how much better women treat you – even right upon meeting you! – if you’re in a state of both masculine mastery and positivity. That’s when women can be enjoyable again. It’s important not to expect too much from them. This will make you content… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

We had a good roundtable last night! Thanks to Sun Wukong for hosting, good to talk to ya and SJF again. Good to meet RM lurker Jack-Jack. Was hoping Glenn could make it, but eh, he’s a busy guy. We covered some cool stuff this time. I think y’all will enjoy it. And yup, the doc held off the sauce, and all I could hear was the occasional clattering of what I now realize was a tobacco tin. SJF, it is frustrating to lack a natural gift at something you admire. Like Salieri in the film ‘Amadeus.’ But for what… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

Divided Line:

https://youtu.be/HGEO6ig8WsM

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

Happy Anniversary Rollo!

redlight
Guest
redlight

@FTS 11:05am

The great part of the video is when Tyler shifts to beta mode, same guy, same clothes, watch the women

Excalibur
Guest
Excalibur

Alpha males aren’t all that. They can be ignored as well. We’re talking about baboons here in this article, but is it applicable to human behavior?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3168293/Have-baboons-developed-DEMOCRACY-Decisions-group-despite-presence-dominant-individuals.html

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

@Rollo,

As an acolyte of Roissy, I suggest getting your wife an unsigned birthday card and a bag of skittles.

just getting it
Guest
just getting it

The very thought of being responsible for todays women is laughable, but as ever with women, what has been said is not as per first reading: Juggle it round a bit and it says ‘Stay engaged with us and you might be able to change our behaviour’. Any man with a passing aquaintance with the pill knows this to be so much bunk – just extending hope to the worshippers of the the vag. This is important to me because I want to assess my chances in any game I participate in. If I see myself as an also-ran in… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

Just getting it,

the key is to not make changing women your objective. If men are to change women at all – and I don’t really think it’s our responsibility, but suppose it is – it doesn’t change our modus operandi.

Have a mission. Have requirements for the people you keep around you based upon your needs, and if they don’t meet them, next.

As you note, it’s a fool’s errand to try and change women directly. Really that applies to anyone, not just women.

Chump No More
Guest
Chump No More

@SJF, thanks for getting the thread back on track! I’m also a natural observer and continue to find men’s journey through the ‘stages’ fascinating. No journey is the same. I went through ‘denial’ and ‘anger’ pretty quickly, but took up residence in ‘bargaining’ for many months. For the uninitiated, this is where the purple pill lives… which is no doubt why I stayed waaaaay past the expiration date on Athol’s forum. I can remember the exact day and moment I graduated from ‘bargaining’. It was the day I internalized all my progress since taking the RP, re-captured my self worth,… Read more »

Chump No More
Guest
Chump No More

And speaking of “there is no alpha with a side of beta”…

Alpha = in my frame
Beta = not in my frame

Maybe I’m over simplifying, but it works for me.

just getting it
Guest
just getting it

Hi Forge, I’ve got plenty of missions thanks, I’m just in disbelief that some femmy complaint of ‘you could stop us being like we are’ is getting so much buy in and response. There’s a time and a place for everything, and women aren’t everything. I’m just saying that the complaint thrown at us shows again that women don’t know what they want, expect men to foot the bill always, it’s always men’s fault, blah, blah, blah, but please don’t ignore us – you’ll have to sort this out when it goes south. I can’t see how that got taken… Read more »

Divided Line
Guest

I appreciate the thoughtful comments and advice, guys. Thanks.

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

I agree. It’s a frame grab at a societal level. Frankly guys lost in this ‘is it our responsibility to change women?’ are, in my opinion, stuck in the bargaining stage – at least with this aspect of the RP.

It’s kinda like the purple-pill ‘maybe if I change my behavior to be more masculine she’ll love me back’ kinda thinking.

But this is the place to hash these things out.

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

@redlight

Yeah, that was a real eye-opener for me.

If most girls are being bitches to you, it’s not because they’re mostly bitches. It’s because you’re beta.

anonymous
Guest
anonymous

@scribble, good lord are you a stupid brainwashed faggot.