Doin’ It Live (again)

I’m in Vegas for most of this month (July is promo month for what I do), but I did make time for a Tom Torero interview last week, on the 4th of July no less.

Tom’s a good guy, and was (or still is) a partner of Nick Krauser’s crew. We talked for an hour, but I could’ve gone longer with him. We discussed a lot in that time. Have a listen on youtube or you can download the interview from iTunes (#27).

Let me know what you think here or you can comment on the youtube link too.

Thanks Tom.

192 comments

  1. You must watch this to get the ideology of the people we are up against on the cultural and political fronts. Feminist hipster comic does a routine on her encounter with an MRA. It’s not even funny…

  2. @ scribbleberg

    Yeah, who doesn’t love a good male suicide joke. Funny stuff. I posted this in the comments section before she disabled them:

    “Hey Maggie S., can you do a bit where you make fun of homeless men? That would be funny, yeah? Isn’t the suffering and weakness of others hilarious?

    Maybe you could make a wacky joke or two about their “neckbeards” and how “creepy” they are. That would be clever, original, and inspired in the way we’ve come to expect from feminists. I’ll bet homeless men are just mad because they can’t get laid. What about the menz!? Teehee!

    If men – the privileged oppressors whose lives are like a “video game set to easy” – are three times as likely to be homeless, then shouldn’t it be obvious than male homelessness is a gender issue? I mean… it is a gender issue, right? If not, then why not?

    And if it is a gender issue but there is still some question about it or if people like myself have to remind people like yourself of it, then how could this be possible after 40 years of feminist scholarship and advocacy if “feminism helps men too?” It’s not adding up, I have to be honest with you.

    Will feminism really free men and help them “express their feelings?” Because whenever I express my feelings, like right now, I get called a “misogynist” or a “whiner,” and accused of not being able to “get laid” by people like yourself. That’s what you did in your routine here. You literally suggested that the only reason a guy would care about male suicide is because he’s mad that he can’t get laid, yeah? Is that not what you were saying? If not, then what were you saying exactly?

    This is strange since you’re the underdogs and the good guys fighting for truth, justice, and equality and everything so, y’know, would you like to take this opportunity to clear this up so I and all the other confused men in this comment section can be allies to feminism? Because if I didn’t know any better, I’d say it looked like bullying.

    Is it not bullying when you disregard everything somebody says and mock them for being supposedly unattractive to the opposite sex?

    If I didn’t know better, I’d say all this sounded like the same venal and bigoted persecution politics, ignorance, and indifference to suffering that you find on the reactionary end of the political spectrum, the very same that you no doubt complain about when you’re not slaying them at comedy clubs with jokes about male suicide.

    This is all really confusing for us unwashed rubes who didn’t get your rigorous gender studies education, so if you could clear it up, that would be great, thanks.”

  3. Rollo….there are some things i don’t understand about frame.
    When you are talking about frame…especially IN a marriage…what kind of frame do you mean?
    – To play from a dominant standpoint
    – to dread her and game her (endlessly)
    – to never fully commit, i.e always having plates (also in a marriage)

    I don’t plan to marry, but i think that i haven’t fully understood what frame really means!!

    Thank u

    P.S: Are there “Frame” differents between business/privat communications?

  4. It is really interesting that Torrero interviewed Rollo. Torrero made some negative comments about Rollo’s first book, Rational Male. Watch his youtube video where he talks about books on PUA. He not so subtly steers his viewers away from Rollo’s perspective citing an “us vs them” mentality prevalent in the manosphere.

    It is also important to note that Torrero faked one of his infield pickup videos. Links are here:
    http://daygame.com/cafe/index.php?topic=6196.0
    http://krauserpua.com/2014/12/12/tom-torero-fakes-an-infield-kiss-close/

    I’m not saying Torrero is a bad guy and I don’t think he’s a huckster on the level of RSD. Just realize who the man is: a purple pill dating coach with questionable integrity and ethics.

  5. Here is the fraudulent video in all of its glory:

    Make your own judgement about the man. All of us have made mistakes. But you should be cognizant of all the facts about the man.

  6. @scribblerg

    That’s one of those videos that’s hard to watch since you’re rather embarrassed for the subject. She was among her own people and could barely get a laugh out of them.

    One of those loud mouth attention whores who tries to push her voice deeper, louder, and more grating just in case she might accidentally attract a non-androgynous male through a minute display of femininity. Never liked those types even when I was Blue Pill. Especially when they thought their meandering, punchlineless stories made them funny.

  7. Indeed, she’s a talentless little shrew, isn’t she? And not nearly as clever as she believes herself to be, like so many half-smart women. One thinks that IB and Kate-the-Kunt would operate on a similar intellectual level.

    Let’s do the next damn round table already! Sorry to be so pushy, hope you are making progress irl.

  8. @Rollo – Loved this interview. Tom brings a lot to the table and knows how to interview and frame an engaging narrative. Very well done and thanks for it!

  9. @scribblerg

    Let’s do the next damn round table already! Sorry to be so pushy, hope you are making progress irl.

    Funny you should mention that. I just got my mic and audio gear set back up after work today. I’ve got a few modifications to make to things on the server (including the need to get an actual web site up) and some additional ideas to add. Let’s shoot for Sunday the 19th at 16:00 Central.

    Planning on this to be the last “test” of ideas before I go for a real regular release and try to put the spit shine to things. On that note I’ll be keeping things more on track this time, and I’ve got an idea of how to avoid talking over each other that I want to try.

    You guys let me know who all will be there.

  10. @Mycroft

    Ewww, she’s ugly! She looks like a three, but her body is at least a 5.

    What really kills it for me is her posture. Slouch more, sweetheart. We can’t quite picture you as Quasimodo yet.

  11. Really cool talk. Hearing voices rather than seeing text somehow made the message more personal. Nothing new in essence but hearing it said out loud was kinda nice.

  12. ” her body is at least a 5.” It’s the footballer’s legs that are misleading you. The rest is like an Area 51 alien.
    Soccer, that is. Sign her up to USWNT, they’ll, er, love her low center of gravity.

  13. @scribblerg

    “Maggie” – what she blabs could seem threatening until you realize the obvious about her. She is at best a 3. With that attitude, she will never attract or enjoy any alpha although she yearns for one as all women do. She is psychologically compensating for extreme lack of self confidence and disappointment in herself for sexual dissatisfaction. Her body language and tone screams her sense of self worthlessness. The slumped shoulders, concave torso, elbows held close, etc. blatantly reveal her horrible insecurity and self loathing. Her voice is a droning morose monotone of negativity. She displays no feminine sexy vitality, confidence and gregariousness. No man worth a shit to himself of anyone else would want her. The best I can do is pity her. Can you imagine her with anything else other than some soft pudgy weakling liberal pussy boy? Whatever boyfriend, husband she has or men who persue her will only be self loathing losers themselves. No alpha male would concern himself in the least with her kind other than to avoid her like stepping around a turd on the sidewalk. Women who are vivacious, out going, attractive, positive minded and with desirable options themselves will also have nothing to do with her. They don’t want to be associated with such a dissatisfying negative looser mentality coming from a broad like that who is broadcasting her pathetic sexual dissatisfaction and lack of confidence.

  14. “Tom is a solid genuine guy and far from purple pill.”

    Bear in mind we are all capable of appearing so, and most people are chameleons to some extent. We tend to mirror each other to gain trust and develop comradery. However some people take it too far, especially when they are selling something or want to fit in and aren’t self confident they will fit in.

  15. @Tom (not Torrero)

    Who the hell cares? He did a creditable job of interviewing Rollo and we got to listen to Rollo’s thoughts.

    @ ScribblerG–I’m sensing a more positive tone to your comments. I like it.

    Also like the way you adopted and will continue to enforce Law #10. With all this red pill awareness I’m learning and better game I am employing myself, one of the most remarkable things I realize is how much of this I had already done naturally in my past history, rather than how I was clueless (I wasn’t). I nexted my sister-in-law(my brother’s wife) 20 years ago for her bitchy snobbishness and my Brother-in-Law(wife’s sister’s husband) 10 years ago when he was discovered to have a fetish/obsession with my wife and I rarely talk to her and haven’t spoken with him since. My wife doesn’t talk to her sister.

    “Law 10
    Infection: Avoid the Unhappy and Unlucky

    You can die from someone else’s misery – emotional states are as infectious as disease. You may feel you are helping the drowning man but you are only precipitating your own disaster. The unfortunate sometimes draw misfortune on themselves; they will also draw it on you. Associate with the happy and fortunate instead. ”

    Another thing I find remarkable is Nassim Taleb’s chapter on Via Negativa. A blueprint for Rollo Tomassi to be descriptive and tell men what not to do, rather than be prescriptive and tell them exacty what to do (Taleb referring to charlatans and most how to books–giving positive advice and only positive advice, exploiting gullibility.) The greatest–and most robust– contribution to knowledge consists in removing what we think is wrong–subtractive epistemology. So much of what men and woman do in today’s society including paying attention to mainstream media.

    @M. Simon

    I can’t back your exclusive alpha domination of your wife. It works fine ( until it doesn’t and she calls it alpha asshole behavior) and you are good at it , but LTR game still needs to address the comfort testing and comfort needs of women. Rollo touched on this in this interview. Due to the biologic underpinning of women’s psyche with it’s dualistic strategy, they still have the hard-wiring to need comfort. Even if it’s “for the kids”. I don’t find a lack of alpha frame in providing comfort and I doubt Rollo or I. Ironwood do either.

    Does anyone else see the value of understanding comfort vs. shit tests I referred to earlier re: LTR’s (and it resonates with them) from the links I posted to Heartiste and Athol Kay?

    @Sun Wukong I would like to participate on Sunday (assuming I don’t get side-tracked with farming or golfing or comforting my wife) and promise to remain sober.

  16. Should have typed………So much of what men and woman do in today’s society is wrong and should be avoided (including paying attention to mainstream media).

  17. It’s really stunning what a mess she is. yet I also thinks she utterly unconscious of it in a real way. I bet she thinks that everyone is a fucked up and self-loathing as she is.

    I lived in the East Village in NYC for a while and her type is not unfamiliar to me. The pose is everything, an all consuming self-absorption that values the aesthetic above all else. Listen to how she presents herself – she knows she’s being superficial. It’s almost like she’s daring us to tell her to shut up and sit down.

    Only place I disagree with you guys is on is her appearance. The posture is bad, but the whole slutty pixie librarian thing works for me and if she didn’t seem so morose and insipid, I’d fuck her no prob. She has a nice body for sure, petite and tight. But then again, my standards are far lower than you guys at this point.

    Her boyfriend is “Pajama Boy” a la Obama imagery. Trout-like shoulders and no chest, sallow but cheeky. Fashionable too – all 135 pounds of him.

  18. Via Negativa is brilliant in its simplicity. Recall the Papuan tribal custom of “don’t sleep under a dead tree” – it’s no abstract, it’s not probabalistic and is the kind of info that is passed down by elders and via apprenticeshis versus distilled, conceptual learning.

    It’s the kind of knowledge acquired up close and personal, often as a result of having skin in the game. You never really understand risk until you hold it in the palm of your wallet, if you know what I mean. Until it’s your house, your business, your equity. But business is so far away from that now.

    Many Wall Street firms used to be partnerships owned the equity. Can you imagine Lehman Brothers every going 30:1 leverage then? And back then, risk management was much more about prudential judgment and less about math. Heuristics, and even just common sense contain “negative” input that is often based on wisdom accumulated over time.

    Thanks for noticing the change in tone and the encouraging words. Yeah, I’m so much less frustrated now. I’m still struggling with motivation and consistency but I’m getting better at it. And yeah, “game” is applicable everywhere in my life, and Law 10 is a great insight. I’ve often spent a lot of energy on negative people and it just feels like shit when I do it now. That guy and I spoke briefly so as not to leave it on bad terms, but I just told him I couldn’t be with how he was being and that was that.

    Great lessons for me. Save me first – plenty of work right there.

  19. Gonna go with Rollo. HB4 just off looks alone. Add in the grating personality and the fact that she thinks she’s “funny” and she plunges to a -1. Would pay for someone to take her elsewhere so I could drink in peace.

  20. An interesting consequence of the RP for me is a broadening of my palette wrt women and being creative. Sure, she’s awful – as is I’d rather run my balls across a cheese grater , got it.

    But without the attitude? A real smile instead of a sneer? She does have a tight body and I do like the slutty pixie thing A LOT, that’s an aesthetic thing. Funny, the orientation is so different. I know I’m older and get IOIs a lot less and since I’m operating off them I’m entirely opportunistic. Remember, all I’m doing is short term mating with the hottest young women I can find.

    So for me it’s a threshhold issue and I’m finding that young and tight is all I really care about. He he.

  21. I wish I could post pics of the girls I’m working with in Vegas this weekend. You work enough liquor promos and product launches your standards will get pretty high.

    A girl like the “comedian” in that video is invisible to me.

  22. My ex was faaaaar hotter with a better body and an amazing attitude when we first met. First date she wound up jumping up with a huge grin tossing her arms around my neck and kissing me. That was a level of enthusiasm I’d never experienced from a woman, much less one that cute AND on a first date. Still feel like she was HB7.

    I don’t really feel like my standards are that high either. I just assess myself in the 7-8 range and felt like I was reasonable to expect the same out of the women I date.

  23. @rollo good interview yet again. You’d mentioned the movie Inside Out early up in the interview. I saw it recently with my daughter. What about it did you find anti red pill?

  24. I’m very bad at grading. I seem to have strange tastes, sometimes veering off into “joli laide”, if Mr Perky is any guide. Guys can call “HB 98 stunner”, I see “sturdy peasant girl, old before her time”. Coarse features (anywhere, even ankles) really put me off for some reason, which is a damned shame. Hey ho, my loss.
    But agree about the comedienne. HB3? Lower? Entirely because I would get recurring nightmares about having humped Rebecca Watson. Don’t do that, guys.
    She’s one of those people, isn’t she? I don’t think I could unclench my fists if she was anywhere in sight (or, particularly, hearing).

  25. Gad Saad is an evolutionary behavioral scientist at the John Molson School of Business, Concordia University, Montreal, who is known for applying evolutionary psychology to marketing and consumer behaviour.

    He’s doing a live show with Sargon of Akkad here right now

    He’s fantastic at explaining evo psych and sex and reinforces all we discuss here. I think he’s a great resource for us all. Here’s his channel, he’s got tons of relevant vids – and he’s a serious academic and scientist. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLH7qUqM0PLieCVaHA7RegA/videos

    Enjoy.

  26. Feminists are wounded little girls, who do not want to heal themselves,glorify and celebrate their victimhood,and at the same time projecting their shadow onto the world.
    Which comes across in reality as hatred of men and male sexuality and ultimately the hatred of their own primal sexual animal and true heart consciuouness .
    Instead they feel righteous to exist in the ‘entitled F.I.’ . read: excrement of their ivory tower princess bloated ego tyranny. Healing their own self ,becoming whole…umm…

  27. Sun brings up a point we’ve discussed before: I’ve known a couple women who objectively might hve been an HB5, but their personalities were so pleasant and bubbly that their rank went up at least one point on that alone. They were so fun to be around that, at least for a time, you didn’t care they weren’t so buxom, say, though for an LTR you might look more critically if that matters to you.

    Speaking of which – this is on topic both here and with the prior post – I reread a book from a bookstore beat up table, “The Bitch In The House.” * In which the editor specifically mocks the suggestion that GenX Mad Maxines might get better reactions from their husbands if they displayed “a pleasant and accepting attitude.” WHAT?!!!111! How DARE you???!!! That’s PATRIAMARLARKEY OSPREYESSION!

    The whole book, while eye-crossing at times, is Exhibit A for AFBB and modern hypergamy, testified by the grrlz themselves. They’re mad because hubby donesn’t do enough. That he does too much. That he acts like a dick. That he acts like a nice guy. That he doesn’t make enough money. That he lets her make more money than him even though he’s working too. That he’s a stay at home dad and a better parent. That he doesn’t do chores but she won’t let him anyway because he doesn’t do it like she wants and she can’t be bothered to show him he should know already but he doesn’s so it’s his fault. &c. &c. &c. (I like those: &c).

    *By, I think, Kathi Hannauer. Findable via those Amazonians, no doubt, in their remaindered book sections.

  28. Ah yes. Checked again. It’s there, for $0.01. Go git it, you hosers.
    Misspelled her name: Cathi Hanauer. Whoopsie.

  29. I think a lot of guys have this impression that really beautiful women necessarily have bitchy attitudes. It might be true in a sense because a hot girl who knows she’s hot will be accustomed to being deferred to by men, but I’ve found (in my line of work) this isn’t always the case.

    I kind of feel bad for Beta guys whose experience of women is limited by their mindset or their feminized programming. Not saying anyone here, but most guy’s experience with women is colored by how a feminine social order expects them to defer or “respect” and support women who really don’t merit any of it.

    Due to this their general sense of women is one that tells them the don’t deserve to have ‘standards’ for women. So they accept a bitchy attitude or the rude shit as part of women’s natures and base their estimate on that precondition.

    When a guy hits a strip club and all the hot women are so nice and feminine and deferential to him it’s really a calculated sucker punch to him because these women make their money by being a breath of fresh air to him in a world where he presumes women are mostly indifferent to, or despising of his appreciation.

    Once or twice a month I work with some very beautiful women and yes most are leveraging it and have the entitled shit attitude, but one or two in ten still has that open good nature. Granted they’re leveraging it too, but it is appealing enough to boost an HB 8 into the HB 9 zone on the Tomassi scale.

  30. @Fred

    Sun brings up a point we’ve discussed before: I’ve known a couple women who objectively might hve been an HB5, but their personalities were so pleasant and bubbly that their rank went up at least one point on that alone. They were so fun to be around that, at least for a time, you didn’t care they weren’t so buxom, say, though for an LTR you might look more critically if that matters to you.

    Yeah, that’s one of the two major components of girl game: charm. The first thing a girl needs to attract a man’s attention and get arousal is looks, but the second thing if she wants to keep him around is charm. Being genuinely in to a dude and unafraid of showing it, actively enjoying playing with him instead of being bitchy and offended, being feminine and sweet, and so on and so forth.

    A lot of guys don’t know what it’s like to have a woman with charm because feminism actively discourages it and encourages replacing it with Miss Shitty Comedienne’s behaviors. It really ruins an otherwise average woman, and can even make hot chicks barely tolerable.

  31. I forgot to say thanks for your interview Rollo,and your comments… which are always very relevant.
    What I liked the most was your frame,the way you draw someone into your reality, and create the comfort,excitment and understanding of your own life .nice.

  32. Interesting scale @sun

    I do pretty well with the 6-7 crowd judging by that scale. In my part of the country (lets just say this isn’t LA or Miami), a true honest to god 8 or 9 is a RARE thing however.

    Why the actual fuck did I leave the west coast????

  33. A few thoughts on beautiful women. As a qual let’s just say i married the homecoming/prom queen and dated/fucked many HB8 and better in my day. And in case my commentary about the sluttie pixie has confused anyone here, she’s an HB4 for me as well and I would never give her the time of day. I was only trying to say she actually had a tight body and that the slutty pixie thing works for me.

    – Beautiful women are not approached nearly as much as most men think. The exceptions are the real clubwhores/bar flies who are out 5 nights a week in a big city, but they are a small subsection. In fact, most of the approaches they get are awful, nervous and very short. Most men are too intimidated to even try.

    – Very hot women often find it a mixed blessing. While of course they enjoy the status and attention, many don’t trust that men “like me for me”. This is why complimenting a beautiful woman is a huge mistake (in many ways) – she knows you want to fuck her, everyone wants to fuck her, this is nothing new. Her Dad’s friends want to fuck her, her teachers in college wanted to fuck her, her boss wants to fuck her, her friends Bfs want to fuck her – announcing you do too is nothing new.

    If you have game, you can have a huge advantage with a beautiful women from the outset because just by not being blown off your feet by her looks you are demonstrating high value. I also think that talking to her less hot friends with the same interest will really make her curious about you. Find something of common interest to discuss and draw her out a bit, and you will be giving her what 99.9% of men never do – realness.

    – I feel bad for Beta guys who never fuck a dime because for me, once I married one, I never felt like I couldn’t roll with one. And I’m 5’8″.

    I’m going to have to follow this up with a beautiful woman Field Report to demonstrate how refusing to hit on a beautiful woman will make her fuck you.

  34. @sun, you are an 11 and don’t let them tell you your anything less.
    Do you think the SUN out there in the sky thinks its a 7 or 8 ?
    Every Alpha male is the best,there is no competition.

  35. Field Report: Barcelona, 1995 at the annual biggest conference for derivatives trading. A week long event, right on the Med. Stayed at Hotel Arts, a Ritz Carlton property – my company IPOed that week – we partied like rockstars.

    She: 28 HB9, sweet, demure, smart marketing person. Blonde, blue eyed, great body (that she did not show off), she was also well educated and not stupid. She was well read and cultured and very well respected in our professional world.
    Me: Trying to be an 8 in designer (Canali) suits, 5’8″, ten lbs overweight, making rain for the company, selling to the smartest people in the world. But charming, ambitious as hell, considered by many to be smart and great at the art of conversation.

    Very short story. I always wanted to fuck her but refused to make a move until she showed interest. She was by nature a bit reserved, but also kept a cool almost aloof demeanor at the office. She showed interest in me as a colleague but never once gave me a hard IOI.

    Last day of trip is a Saturday after show, we all have the day to enjoy. We (8 of us) charter a sailboat and go for a sail and then end up going from bar to bar eating tapas by the seaside. As the group peels down, she keeps hanging with me. The conversation is getting deeper, she’s getting drunk, I’m already drunk but I still don’t make a move.

    Finally, maybe at 1 in the morning, it’s just her and me. I’ve not made a single move, and haven’t even Kinoed much (a little, a hand on the lower back as we move through crowds). We are dancing and the truth is that I was just enjoying myself. She was good company and my head (long before game) was always that if a woman made me “work” she was never going to fuck me anyway. I also intuitively knew that hot women had to make the first move towards me.

    She stops dancing and looks at me, then blurts, “For Christ’s sake, okay!”. flings her arms around me and begins kissing me deeply, and wildly. I swear, you could have knocked me over with a feather as I did not see it coming. What’s important here is that I had good strategy. I knew “trying” to fuck her would never work. I simply set it aside and in her case, she was great company and I was just enjoying hanging out with her – but did not focus my attention on her. There were many others in the group and I did not pay her special attention for most of the day. I also teased her a bit when I did and she would play a little bit of the scold to me – we always had some kind of emotional dynamic (very important to have something dynamic happening).

    I fucked her that night, for most of the night actually. In fact, I missed my flight to Madrid the next morning, lol. We saw each other for a while but I was a mess after my divorce. She was one of several super high quality women I was with during the first few years after my divorce who I blew it with.

    Moral of the story? I had the basics right, so not having optimal “game” didn’t really affect the outcome. I am a good conversationalist but didn’t escalate or isolate or try to “vibe” with her intentionally. The only thing I was from the outset was not thirsty. I had already turned down a married chick to fuck that week cuz back then I actually had some morals – pussy was not scarce to me. I was having a great time whether she fucked me or not.

    What I’m not sure of is if a man who has never had a very high value woman can have that kind of confidence? Remember, I had been married to a woman just as hot as her. It was not even conscious for me – I just never took shit from women or groveled to them after my marriage. Anyone who gave me too much grief got excised immediately – even after 10 minutes in a bar. I was known in moments of deep frustration to intervene in my pathetic, much lower SMV and hopelessly Beta friends at that point.

    One friend Rob was particularly bad and would chat these girls up for ever, buying them drinks and he never, ever picked up one. On several occasions I would finally just blurt out, “Okay, please be honest – are you going to fuck my friend Rob here tonight?” He would get pissed but by seeing the reactions he got from the girls he knew I was right.

    After my marriage, i was a zero tolerance zone for female nonsense and it served me well. I do think now that if I had a whiff of LTR game, my life might have taken a very different course because I could never tolerate more than 6 months with any one woman after that. Their behavior would escalate in ways I didn’t want to deal with, I’d warn them, they’d keep it up, I’d dump them, they would be shocked. I go do some “ex sex” if I could, rinse, repeat. There were at least 3 world class, great women in that group who were also wild about me that knowing what I know now I might have had a great chance to make something work with.

    Sigh…Listen up you young guys, listen up…

  36. Sun, I’d like to join in Sunday. My Reserve duty ends at 1600. Could you refresh the login details?

  37. Sure, ScribblerG, I talked about comfort test in the last comments section in Adaptations III. They are pretty important in LTR’s. I have seen problems in real life when one doesn’t know the difference between a shit test (value shit test) and a comfort test. (Like friends wives walking away with half their substantial wealth).

    I put a couple links before to Athol Kay who described it best (I don’t fault you for not clicking on them, but if you prefer a Chateau Heartiste link, here you go:

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/value-shit-tests-vs-comfort-shit-tests/

    In the above link, it refers to short term relationships.

    Athold Kay said it best in these two links:

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2014/07/why-being-asshole-alpha-works-for-about-six-months/

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/10/fitness-testing-vs-loyalty-testing/

    “One of the biggest frustrations I’ve had over the last five years, is watching the endless parade of guys get all excited about becoming Alpha, getting about six months of great success from it, then nose diving their relationship into the ground.”

    And:

    “I have talked about why wives can start getting withdrawn as their husbands improve their Sex Rank and start pulling ahead of their wives in attractiveness, just didn’t have a term for it. I think Loyalty Testing is a good one. A wife can be plenty attracted to her husband, just terrified of getting cheated on or dumped. There’s Dread Game where you inject a little of that into the mix and get a positive reaction, and then there’s losing hope that she can be anything other than a victim to his whim for how the relationship plays out. When that happens she pulls back, shuts her vagina down and braces for the emotional shotgun blast to the chest.

    Which is exactly why when a wife Loyalty Tests her husband, and he bumps back on her and acts aloof and unaffected by her like it’s a Fitness Test, it makes things significantly worse between them. Playing hard to get when someone is desperate to see loyalty is the completely wrong thing to do.”

    It is a very important to learn this stuff well before you need it. It is nuanced.

    Too much talk is devoted to Alpha, Alpha, Alpha in the manosphere, but once any one man decides to pursue a LTR he has to play his commitment card and successfully be an alpha with beta traits. You can have personality traits that don’t give you a full blown “diagnosis”.

    This is hardwired into women in their biological underpinnings and dualistic strategy of AF/BB. Being unaware of women’s need for comfort as well as value in a man can get you in a lot of trouble. Sure, you can get laid as an alpha asshole. You can get frivorced easily if your seedbank of BB comfort is depleted in an LTR.

  38. scribblerg,
    Great Field Report! You do sound better btw. I’ve always appreciated how you employ game, and being in a roughly similar situation but slightly (a good bit) older, am beginning to develop a measure of self-confidence thanks to the crew here and in no small measure, your comments.

  39. Speaking of women’s humor, what about men’s humor? I was watching TV last night with my wife and I laughed out loud when perusing the Google News. It was a story about how some woman found a dead coyote just barely off a suburban street with each of it’s four feet cut off. The woman took a picture and the newspaper posted it. The woman was mortified “that there is a creepy man creep out there who did this and I am afraid. Some of the comments were to the same effect from women, but some men had some humorous comments like “he must have been running with a bad crowd” and a few others (I tried to look up more of the comments just now, but the story is totally scrubbed.

    Anyway, my wife thought I was creepy for thinking the whole thing was humorous. Think about it, a densely populated suburb where there is too many coyotes just lost one. Good on the guyentity that got rid of one. My wife tried to admonish me to not talk about it or joke about it to any of mine or her friends (it’s been a topic lately with lots of sightings).
    My wife is comfort testing me. She thinks I’m insensitive to the fact that there is a creep out there. She’s not the least bit phased about the risk to her outdoor cats (all five of them).

    This morning I’m having brunch with my wife and we were talking about a restaurant on a lake she was planning to go paddle-boarding. I told her I met up with a friend “Jim” and his girlfriend at the same restaurant earlier this week. She asked who that was. I said you know the second guy who’s wife left him. You know the one of two guys that spurred me to get more red pill aware and be better at married man gameto be a better husband this past year? Her response was “not when you’re laughing about the coyote story–you are not any better. Ha! Ha! That gave me a shit eating grin.

    I think it is great that there is one less coyote roaming around.No more no less in my mind. And I think it is amusing for the way someone advertised that and freaked out the women folk so much so that they worry there is a creep on the loose. And by implication a creepy man. Meanwhile no one else is getting rid of the suburban coyotes.

  40. Good interview, Rollo. It’s all basic stuff but that’s the way to reach new people.

    Enjoyed your discussion of frame at the end. Some of this stuff still feels like ‘faking it’ at times for me, but I think I’m getting there.

    Sun, I’ll be on the roundtable if I’m at all able!

  41. “a dead coyote just barely off a suburban street with each of it’s four feet cut off”
    Is there a market for coyote feet? I mean like foxtails for bike aerials, or instead of fuzzy dice? Keychains?
    Otherwise I’d be thinking “uh oh, looks like the vibrancy is encroaching. Which culture? Aztecs? Voodoo? East Asian delicacy? Some grotesque African murder/witch-cult?”
    Therefore creepy, because humans. And not in a good way.
    Surely a reasonable person would take the hide and the canines, dump the rest? I know I do.

  42. @Tam

    I personally like to mount the heads on a pike. The neighbors tend to complain a bit, but they stay away out of fear. Mission accomplished.

  43. @Rollo

    I understand where you are going with that statement and that link.

    Excellent key points from you in that essay:

    “I disagree with his assertion here that red pill men need their occasional blue pill escapisms, but really only in how he’s applying terms.”

    “My main objection is conflating to blue pill ignorance as some sort of escape that a Man might artificially enjoy from time to time in order to balance the harsh, and admittedly cruel truths his new awareness brings to him.”

    “….lack the insight at this point to see that you can create hope in a new system – one in which you have more direct control over.”

    “In the blue pill Matrix, everything was set for them, but with a red pill awareness comes the responsibility of doing things for themselves.
    You can allow that to consume you with a paranoia rooted in your former blue pill frame, or you can learn to create hope in a new system – one that you not only have more control over, but one that requires you to assume that control.”

    Me personally, I have good insight, good hope and feel real control over the direction of my life (built upon what I already had until that foggy part in the middle).

    Much thanks to you, Rollo for that. My writing on this comfort testing vs. shit testing is not so much me trying to figure out or test things, but a feeble attempt to give back to your readers something that I feel they should know and understand before they need it in real life, or apply it to their lives now.

    I never really adopted blue pill tendencies, but I didn’t have enough red pill awareness to refrain from my abdicating a position of maleness in my relationship with my wife.(Hey the Feminine Imperative had the deck stacked) Now, I find it easy to not lose my frame. And it is not hard or scary ( I’m too experienced in life for that) proceeding forward. I really do think it is a matter of semantics and application of terms. I’m positive and the more assured I am in myself, the less it takes to give stuff to my female partner. After all we are a complementary pair.

    I’m not an Athol Kay fanboy simply because he says a few things about married game. I got a few good tips from him at a time when my getting on board with the red pill was deficient getting a good bead on married man monogamous game. I would not jump in the pool with him and I don’t advocate your readers invest much time in to his stuff (unless they find his early stuff as a fulcrum to leverage their relationships). I found his Mindful Attraction Plan very valuable to my own situation insofar as it made me hit the gym and powerlift and get rid of some of my vices and improve myself. It worked.

    Your disclaimer at the end of that linked essay was that you didn’t want to take down Athol Kay with it. Well, I also don’t want to build him up with my comments. I do think cherry picking a few of his thoughts if valuable.

    He didn’t come by most of his thoughts organically (with his N count of one). But he self admits that he studied the hell out of the manosphere and applied things and then regurgitated them. His new website or remnants of a blog are currently nearly unreadable by me. His proto-writings were decent.

  44. In terms of married man game. I can pretty much take anything from PUA, to young single man game to STR game and convert it into useful advice for LTR.

    My original interest in Game was after reading Neil Strauss’ book and being fascinated by the psychology. I wanted to use it but it sat in the back of my mind for a decade before I started searching for a way to avoid my collision with destiny and gain back desire sex from my wife.

    What made all the difference to me (I re-iterate) was finding an In-Real-Life mentor for red pill awareness and game. This guy is a genius and a real sounding board for no holds barred discussion. I benefited from his transition from recently divorced to being smart as a whip and taking his former red pill self and transforming his game with the manosphere over a five year period up to the time I started being his mentee.

    The first thing I had to do–and it took a lot of work– was to understand the concept and implement tactics to pass shit tests. I totally forgot about shit tests (and to this day don’t remember the passages in “The Game” book) and was failing them miserably. By the way, the best way to pass a shit test is to be a better person be better at being a man.

    Heartiste had this one bullet point in reader mailbag question July 10th about some guy asking how do you get girls to stop bugging you with their attention:

    “Give your girls more attention. I know, crazy talk, but if you’re serious about any of them, they will come to expect more from you than fly-by-night dickings.”

    Sums up one of my own major married man game provisions. I started paying more attention to her in a non blue pill way, keeping frame, going my own way in man pursuits. I embraced Heartiste’s ninth commandment and really did learn to understand that she did expect more from me than fly-by-night dickings.

  45. Agree with sffrelic and add: Athol’s first MMSL book has genuine red pill gold in it, filtered for married men, recapitulating concisely the lessons taught by CH, Robert Glover and others. It, plus this site, were lights in the tunnel for me when I started out. After he had to tone the message down to make his bread and butter from it, then yeah.

    It is possible not to get caught in the semantic trap of “red pill with blue pill garnish” by noting that one can do tenderness/romantic gestures in an LTR you are keen to maintain without supplicating or breaking frame. To tie in to the other essay, consider it another aspect of amused mastery: a change-up to Dread Game, to avoid monotony and keep the spark going.

  46. @Tam the Bam
    July 10th, 2015 at 4:52 pm

    That’s what’s so fucking funny to me. Who knows how it got there and who cares? It’s a dead coyote in a suburban area.

    And now the article in the online news just disappeared from the internet since yesterday.

  47. Well said Fred:

    “It is possible not to get caught in the semantic trap of “red pill with blue pill garnish” by noting that one can do tenderness/romantic gestures in an LTR you are keen to maintain without supplicating or breaking frame.”

    Resonates with me.

    I’m not very good at tenderness/romantic what with my Asperger’s-like traits (I’m not there, I merely have traits–un-empathetic and high functioning– no where near the diagnosis of Aspy–I tested negative on an internet site) but I’m a damn good provision-er.

    That goes right up there with my favorite saying from Forge the Sky:

    “This stuff doesn’t have to be hard. It doesn’t even have to be unnatural. I’ve found that, in general, RP and game feel more like the awakening of buried impulses than the addition of foreign behaviors.”

  48. Okay, I’m gonna dump a bunch of stuff here. Some might find it informative. I’m hoping others might help me understand some of it.

    Yes, I’m gonna talk about my old one-itis again. Shoot me now. Shit keeps happening.

    So some of you might remember I had a bit of beta backsliding some weeks/months back when she started re-connecting with me after she had a nasty breakup. I observed then how emotionally-charged contact with her seemed to throw me back towards one-itis and beta tendencies.

    Since I can’t avoid contact with her totally, It’s been a real head game trying to get out of that mindset. I think I’ve been doing pretty well; spinning a minor plate or two, mostly acting friendly and upbeat when I see her (punch her in the shoulder, teasing jibe, ask how her day is, then excuse self). I think about her a lot less unless I see her. Then she started seeing me for the therapy I do professionally, and so I’ve been seeing her then, 1-2x per week, alone in a room with her. Hard for me to turn her away as a client without seeming like a total ass lol. This started happening a little while after I sent her a text demanding she come to my house and make out with me, and a drunk text saying how sexy I found her body; she didn’t but I wonder if that got the hamster spinning a bit.

    Anyways, what I do there is just try to feel whatever vibe is in the room and roll with it. No outcome dependence. And she seems to be straining for some sort of emotional connection, and there may be a touch of attraction still there, but it’s quite weak if so. But it’s all bound up under a bitch shield or a front of physical vulnerability depending on her mood. I feel like I’m not really interacting with her, but with some persona most of the time.

    The past few times I’ve been in therapy with her I’ve finally felt the tension easing a bit. But she seems trying to subtly discourage my pursuing her. Maybe I’m still giving off a needy vibe? Anyways it was her birthday a few days back, and so I sent flowers to her house for old time’s sake. I used to do really elaborate gifts lol, now just flowers. She thanked me for them earnestly, she seemed quite touched, and she hugged me with both shoulders (she’s only hugged me with one for quite a while – but there seems to be a weird dissonance where she’s pulling away not from disgust but from a sort of fear or tension, like she’s forcing herself to stay away. If I touch her far shoulder when she does this she recoils as if burned with a brand.)

    Today I saw her in therapy again, and she was in a direct mood I guess. She asked me ‘how long am i going to have to do this therapy?” Kinda out of left field, she came to me for it. I gave an honest answer, that I think it will help her to keep getting it going forward but that a lot of her chronic pain was likely psychogenic and needed trauma therapy to reduce it permanently. I and her doctor have told her this many times and she’s taken no action on it, so whatever. It’s in her court now. Fine.

    A minute later she said: “You know I’m not hanging out with you because I don’t want you to get any ideas about us, right? I’m not just being an asshole.” (we used to hang out some weekends even fairly recently, haven’t been lately.)
    “Ideas about what?”
    “About what our relationship is. I think you still think about making us be together, and I don’t want you to be sad. You need to move on.”

    This went on for a little bit. I basically said that emotions don’t go away like magic just because she wants them to, but that I had been moving on, thank you very much. I admitted (probably stupidly, but I didn’t get emotional about it at least) that I liked her as a person, and that yes I was still attracted to her. She said that she liked hanging out with me a lot, but since she didn’t feel the same way it wasn’t fair for her to give me any chance of being led along.

    yada yada yada, classic BP feminine conversation. I don’t know what it is with this girl that I can’t hold frame with her. Ah well, that was still a lot better than I once would have done; I apologized for nothing, and remained insistent that the future was not something I was gonna try and control with fiat statements about what would never work.

    I thought I’d try a bit of directness myself. “Describe how you feel about me.”
    “You’re one of my best friends. I like you a lot as a friend! But it’s not fair to you.”
    “So, back when we had a relationship, did you feel drawn to me in and of yourself? Or were you just playing along with my attraction to you?”
    She looked in the distance, looked like she might cry for a second, then said: “I tried to make things work. You were an amazing person and I wanted to be able to like you.”
    “But you couldn’t?”
    “You can’t force these things to happen.”
    “So you weren’t ever really attracted to me? You sure seemed to be for a while.”
    “I tried. Really hard! You were a great person to me.”

    Bit of a pause for thought/therapy.

    I decided to try a bit of a different tack. “Look,” I said. “I actually am pretty over a lot of the idealism and other bullshit I had. I’m pretty happy when I’m not around you. There used to be a bunch of things I regretted…” She interrupted.
    “STOP. It wouldn’t have made a difference. Not if you had fixed (issue I had then) or resolved (office drama that made the relationship hard).”
    “Eh, I’m over it. I just felt we had a great physical chemistry, and it sucks that I was too inexperienced to make that work.” (I was a total chode in the sack, lol)
    “NO. Get that OUT of your head. It never would have happened.” She looked frustrated/angry but not disgusted.

    And, um. Lol. She went totally feral on me a few times. ‘It’ totally could have happened with a bit less nervousness on my part. I fully agree with her on one basic gist here; I don’t think she had enough visceral attraction to me to really make an LTR work out. Girls are weird, some of them just won’t be that into you lol, some will. But saying there was no real attraction on her part – that she was just ‘playing along,’ trying to fake it till you make it, is just not accurate.

    I suppose one thing I’d ask y’all – is it possible that she really wasn’t all that attracted to me, in spite of a truly feral sexual response at times toward me? That it was just ‘honeymoon period’ hormones and the occasional horny mood taking itself out on the most viable target? I’m trying to figure this out so I can recognize if that’s the case with other girls going forward. I feel like a real sexual response from a girl pretty much always indicates some degree of attraction, even if it’s insufficient to keep them around.

    Reference point – when I first started pursuing her (first mistake, naturally) she loved hanging out with me but rebuffed my romantic advances for a few months. Then a few of her friends seemed to imply a relationship would be a good idea for her, I started to grow a pair and got a bit more assertive with kino/innuendo, and she fell onto my lap. Sex was dominated by her needs and anxieties naturally, I was BP as all hell, and 8/10 of the time she would get me in bed with her, we’d have fun for a bit, and then she’d want to cuddle. Like it was her way of calming me down so I would cuddle, she loved to curl up close to me and listen to me talk quietly about something, a story or idea. Usually, she was very jumpy about me trying anything assertive or new in sex, though she would ‘let’ me sometimes (because she was ‘trying to make things work?’). Then the 2/10 of the time she would come to me hanging for it and was totally uninhibited. If I had been too shit coulda been fun, lol, that’s what I was bringing up to her as my ‘sole regret’ in the convo above.

    Anyways, 6-8 mo in things grew….sporadic, and drama expanded, I fought like mad to hold the thing together, found the RP, it blew up after about 1.5 years, she came onto me hard like 3 times in the next few weeks then before I knew it she was dating another dude. And the rest is history.

    Hope I haven’t bored y’all, I’ve never really related this whole thing in before, ha. I just thought some context was needed here to get this convo. I’m just kinda set back on my heels here, I was actually being less needy, having better game, etc even as I was starting to kick the oneitis again and then this shit happens. I think she has her eyes set on another guy currently so that’s maybe part of it but still.

    From what I wrote about the relationship, do y’all think that she just might be a girl who was never all that attracted to me? Is any level of ‘gaming’ her just futile in that case? I could def. get her aroused sometimes, but it was infrequent and (seemingly at the time) random. Understand, I’m not trying to get this girl back, and I’m not totally invested in even giving her a ‘goodbye bang’ anymore lol. I am still driven by a desire to prove that I can do that though, it fucking pisses me off to fail at that. I recognize that’s some sort of need for validation talking, and possibly a rationalization due to perceived scarcity, I’m just letting ya’ll know what this is like from the inside.

  49. I have a lot of respect for Athol. Speaking with him directly he is very straightforward, knowledgeable, and humorous.

    TRM and MMSL (in it’s early form) were my first exposures to red pill anything.

    However, there are certain truths that mmsl gloss’ over in the effort to make the marriage “work”

    You can’t “negotiate desire” is the biggest one.

  50. There is no Alpha with a side of Beta, there is only the man who’s genuine concern is first for himself, the man who prepares and provisions for himself, the man who maintains Frame to the point of arrogance because that’s who he is and what he genuinely merits. There is only the Man who improves his circumstance for his own benefit, and then, by association and merit, the benefit of those whom he loves and befriends.

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/09/01/the-myth-of-the-good-guy/

  51. @sjfrellc

    “That goes right up there with my favorite saying from Forge the Sky…”

    Haha, then I go and bleed all over the comment below ya.

    Anyways, I still stand by that. To inflect on it, I can actually feel a shift – sometimes even day to day or hour to hour depending on my circumstances – between ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ mindsets. And RP behaviours and game just fall naturally into place when I’m in an ‘alpha’ mindset.

    My current theory is that these are behavioral subroutines that get activated or de-activated based upon a subconscious assessment of your status and options. Beta behaviors happen when you’re scarcity/anxiety based, alpha behaviors with abundance/confidence.

    Specific behaviors like letting your needs be known, for example, are a natural impulse for an alpha. But they can be conditioned/trained out of you. Men who have an alpha frame and mindset, but just have had some of these behaviors trained out of you, often make tremendous quick progress with the red pill and game; they just have to de-suppress things. Men who are stuck in a beta frame have a harder time of it, because they need to start by changing their fundamental mindset first, and then training the behaviors. If they do it in opposite order they’re going to be going against what their instincts tell them to do, which is why lots of RP betas complain about having to create a fake persona and work hard in order to get women.

    I think in my example I was mildly alpha (probably genetically a natural that just got beaten down too much growing up for it to fully emerge), then got turned hardcore beta by the old one-itis. So I had to crawl out of beta mindsets but it wasn’t too terribly hard for me (so long as I stayed away from the oneitis) because it was more my natural state.

  52. @ Rollo

    There is no Beta with a side of Alpha

    I’m with you on that one Rollo. I hope you are not suggesting that I’m implying the opposite, but that you are merely emphasizing and clarifying for your readers. Thanks to you I have been recently successful in employing the following awareness and game with a measure of success.
    It is remarkable what one can do if they follow your script version of connecting the dots :

    In that link you state:

    “It is a far better proposition to impress a woman with an organic Alpha dominance – Alpha can only be a man’s dominant personality origin. There is no Beta with a side of Alpha because that side of Alpha is NEVER believable when your overall perception is one of being Beta to begin with. This is why I stress Alpha traits above all else. It’s easy, and endearing to ‘reveal’ a flash of Beta sensitivity when a woman perceives you as predominantly Alpha. If your personality is predominantly Beta, any sporadic flashes of Alpha will seem like emotional tantrums at best, character flaws at worst.

    Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.”

    And in the sublink you state:

    “Well LTR gentlemen, I’m here to tell you that, yes, you do in fact have an intrinsic upper hand in this regard if you’re fearless and willing to exercise your power. What I described in the last paragraph seems to be the most intuitive – do what she says = get sex – so it should come as no shock that the answer to it is counter-intuitive. You must find ways to, subtly, return back to the state of competition anxiety she had in the beginning. I emphasize subtly, because, as with most everything else female, doing so overtly will be met with hostility, resentment and at best, obligated compliance. To get more (any?) sex, to retain the frame, to inspire more respect in her, you must disengage from her. That doesn’t mean becoming arrogantly aloof, or sulking like a child, or becoming an instant asshole; those are OVERT signs and methods. What is needed is incremental reassertion of yourself as the primary AND that her sexual agency, while still welcomed, is not a motivator for your own decisions.”

  53. @Rollo re: alpha with a side of beta

    Think the comment I just wrote resonates with what you’re saying. I’m trying to figure out what sorts of subconscious evaluations might be behind ‘alpha’ and ‘beta,’ but I’d assert that there’s a distinct and unmistakable difference in mindset involved. The two don’t get mixed together, any more than you can feel anxious and confident at the same time.

    It’s possible to do compassionate or kind things from an Alpha mindset. Such actions would strike the alpha as either being a natural thing to do in his world, beneficial to himself or those he wants to keep in a good state, or he sees it as an act of benevolence. As opposed to a beta, who does things for others mostly out of a need to be liked (either by himself or others). That’s as close as it gets. Alpha doesn’t do beta, but that doesn’t mean alpha is a raging asshole to everyone – or even an unpleasant person to be around. Quite the opposite, often enough.

  54. @Rollo, about the perception of bitchy attributed to the high ranking women: I find it to be something else. Back when I lived in a ski resort we called it the pretty girl sneer. It’s most likely a response to the sheer number of hits they get on a daily basis. And those hits don’t always come from the most savory of men. I can recall an evening spent in a bar in Reno with an obvious HB8+ who was getting direct hits from the lowest (think wife-beater clad) mouth-breathers in the place. And…it was not that kind of place. She said to me at one point “Why can’t I attract some nice normal guy?” I looked around the room and there were several OK or better looking men in there so I said to her “Like who? Point one out.” She did and I went over to him and quietly told him to look at her and if he was interested to come over and get an introduction. Didn’t need to say it twice. I heard that some 5 years later they were still seeing each other.

    This ties into the idea that charm, a good attitude and openness can add value. It does. It’s not a very common quality but I do associate with a couple of women who just seem to be beyond any sharp edges in their personalities. Sure, I could push buttons and get a snarl but I can do that with anyone. Why fuck up a pleasant thing?

    @Sun, loved the pictorial scale. Just so y’all know anyone under a 6 on that scale just left me clenching my teeth. Wondering what others think? On this subject, I often muse about the young women I was exposed to in high school and college. The oversized women of today were really quite rare back then. In contrast just today I saw a good looking young man with a gal that could have sent him flying off the teeter-totter. I had a cringe reaction. Judgmental? Yep! Then again, I guess she’s warm in the winter and shade in the summer.

    Head on a pike? +1

    funoldguy

  55. @Forge the Sky

    “I suppose one thing I’d ask y’all – is it possible that she really wasn’t all that attracted to me, in spite of a truly feral sexual response at times toward me? ”

    I think it is simple. Ties into what info you got from Vulpine and YaReally.

    I will be uncharacteristically brief:

    You didn’t fuck her good enough. And the feral sexual responses were when she was ovulating.

  56. Once again, riffing on Fred’s comment, I see the beta, comfort, provisioning as a game tactic. Coming from an alpha frame. A tactic when necessary.

    Fred: “It is possible not to get caught in the semantic trap of “red pill with blue pill garnish” by noting that one can do tenderness/romantic gestures in an LTR you are keen to maintain without supplicating or breaking frame.”

    And one of Rollo’s sublinks in essays from above links to CH’s beta strategy as game. Once again, I’m not advocating for beta, but making something happen with what you got to work with.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/07/31/when-beta-male-strategies-can-work/

    From Heartiste:

    “When Beta Male Strategies Can Work
    July 31, 2012 by CH
    Beta male sexual market strategies are not always doomed to failure. They can work under certain conditions. The two primary scenarios in which the beta male strategy is workable (if not necessarily optimal) are:

    1. As a “softening agent” to improve your attainability, or your “long term lover” potential, if your alpha male traits have pushed a woman too far into feeling unloved and unneeded.

    2. As a self-advertisement for long term relationship suitability, given preexisting sufficiently compensatory alpha male traits.

    Number one is a game corrective. Number two is a specific game strategy designed to screen out girls who would make bad long term relationship prospects, and attract women who are looking to settle down.

    Note that the common denominator in all successful beta male mating strategies is the assumption of some degree of preexisting alpha male characteristics, or an already present alpha male dynamic within a relationship. Beta male strategies, in other words, are meant as adjuncts to alpha male, or high value male, game.

    The reverse — adjunct alpha male strategies to complement low value beta male game — is hardly ever an effective strategy for attracting and bedding the women you want. But it can be a decent way of life for beta providers who wish to spice up their marriages as a preventative against wifely infidelity or bitchiness.”

  57. As I wrote in Vulnerability, that Beta flash of humanness is only briefly effective, much less appreciated, by a woman when a man expresses it from the position of a well established dominant Alpha frame.

    It’s should come off as you being human while she thinks of you as more than human. As I’ve stated many times, nothing is more self-satisfying than for a woman to think she’s figured a man out with her (mythical) feminine intuition. Her imagining you being contextually sensitive is one of those instances.

    Athol’s premise is one stemming from weakness. If you don’t spoon and cuddle her enough she might leave you – that stems directly from his singular fear of losing his wife because he has never known abundance and never experienced another woman in his life.

    His “balance the blue pill” walk back of his original MAP, combined with his welcoming women into his (their) plan to make husbands better for those women reeks of Scarcity Mentality. That’s why I say take Athol with a lot of salt.

    At least 80% of men in bad marriages seeking him out need to be more Alpha with their wives, without their awareness of that effort. The Beta mindset? They have that down in spades already, so telling them being an asshole will only get them laid for 6 months is just purple pill buffers and comfort that dissuades them from accepting the harsh realities of what the Red Pill actually requires of them.

  58. The being alpha for six months thing results in “try hard”, Instead of the frame of mind that is actually needed for those men.

    Which means that ultimately the six months of asshole is just another negotiation for sex or her love.

  59. The beta comfort is an image that sticks in a woman’s brian that can not be easily deleted.
    The beta comfort erase 70% of the alpha mind set.
    The beta comfort is a weakness that a woman want to feel but not see.
    The beta comfort destroy (whatever alpha you built ) in 5 minutes.
    Is it worth it? NO.
    If she needs comfort, give her a cat.

  60. The beta comfort is a shit test in disguise.
    It proves to her that you can be ” sensitive”/weak.

  61. Last thought (I promise)
    The one who needs the comfort is :

    THE BETA MAN.

    Women need comfort? It’s like saying the devil need comfort!

  62. I’m happy to have provoked some thought. I realize I had too much pressure of speech about the beta tactic. No lie, Rollo’s interjections realigned my thoughts on the issue today and made me think I over-spoke.

    In real life, though, I’m keeping good frame, practicing good game and reaping the benefits. Hopefully what I comment on is not too contextual.
    What works for me is not as important as universal truths that are more important.

  63. @sjfrellc

    “I think it is simple. Ties into what info you got from Vulpine and YaReally.
    I will be uncharacteristically brief:
    You didn’t fuck her good enough. And the feral sexual responses were when she was ovulating.”

    Ultimately, yes. That nails it. (heh)

    I’m just astonished at how this can still feel like a punch in the gut. I just went and walked for a few hours to hash it out with myself.

    Basically, she thought I had potential. When we first were hanging out I did my own thing and blew her mind with my reality and exploits, her friends tended to be blown away, I had strong social proof, etc. Those were all things I could do well. Then when things got serious enough for her to show me negative emotions, I took them way to seriously instead of just demonstrating to her that they were unimportant. And when it came to physical/sexual stuff, I just wasn’t much good. I mean, I was good, but I wasn’t assertive and she constantly tested me. It must have been really disappointing to her, really. All girls want to feel like a woman who’s passionately desired by a man, not a girl who’s kinda okay to get off in if she lets him but he stops if she says no.

    It’s just lack of practice, I was reading books when other dudes were flirting and making out in middle school, but I think I have the potential to be great at those things too given practice – I’m great at being intuitive with people’s emotions and bodies, it’s why I’m good at my job 😀

    Even now, she kinda pines for doing fun things with me, going to my hangouts, etc. It’s the first thing she tried to do with me when she broke up with her boyfriend. If I had been great at sex but shitty at those other things, she might have banged me a few times post-breakup but wanted nothing to do with me other than that. It all kinda makes sense from her perspective.

    Backing up a step further – really the issue was me choosing a challenge too great for my remedial relationship skill set. In the end this girl isn’t unmanageable, she has her issues that aren’t going away but a lot of it is just that she needs a bit more dominance and aggressive masculinity than the average girl to be attracted. But her cute, childlike persona leads a BP guy running ‘identifying game’ to dive in headfirst, subconsciously thinking that her overt femininity would make her more amenable to a softer approach. The opposite is true.

    I was in a kind of weird situation – socially interesting and dominant enough to still be intriguing to this kinda girl, but with virtually no sexual or emotional leadership skills. Rock, meet hard place.

    If I had started with a girl who needed less dominance to be attracted, who was less of an alpha widow, maybe I could have learned fast enough to avoid blowing the whole thing up. Or at least the learning curve would have been a bit less disorienting. Holy hell, this girl’s shit tests were brutal, old me didn’t stand a chance, haha.

    Anyways, I learned lessons more quickly and more thoroughly this way than I would have otherwise. Given a girl with less stringent demands for masculinity, I may well have ended up in a vaguely unhappy marriage, not bad enough to blow up but not good enough to be rewarding. So, like my (initial) sexual experience with a full-blown crazy BPD girl, it fucking hurt but that’s how we grow in the end. I’d like to think I’m better for it all.

    I feel somewhat better now. I’m metabolizing this shit a lot faster these days, thank Poseidon. And now I’ve got to do something I should have done weeks ago. I’m going to try and talk to this girl sometime in the next few days, and I’m gonna plant a food down. I have very little takeaway power left at this point, but I need to defend myself at least; I’m going to tell her she can’t see me anymore for therapy. Sucks because it helps her, but this is fucking killing me. And I’ll tell her that if she asks me to hang out again, I’m going to assume she’s either in some significant crisis other people can’t help with or is at least considering fucking me.

    I kinda want to be like, “the narrative you fed me is bullshit, I just didn’t fuck you right. Joke’s on you, we’re about to find out my potential,” or some shit. Theres’ no practical point to it, I just like to explain my viewpoints lol. But we’ll see.

    Time to crush this. I’m spending too much money on ethanol.

  64. So, the next time I kill a ‘yote I’ll take the carcass and leave the feet – just so the wiminfolk don’t get all weirded out.

  65. @Forge the Sky

    It doesn’t matter how analytical you think you’re being here. Explaining to her why it didn’t work out is too overt no matter how you try to finagle your comment into some rationalization of gaming her. I’ve do this myself, and when I do it’s essentially turning analysis of what I did wrong and trying to learn from it into an attempt to game her and get her back.

    There is a reason why you shouldn’t try to game girls you failed with from pre RP: it reliquinshes any frame you’ve built up before you even realize it, brings out old habits, and you’re back to square one within a week.

    I’m being constructive here because I wish someone would kick me in the teeth when I’m in your type of situation.

    Being around that type of thing will definitely build your resolve toward it but it’ll also hinder the progress you need.

  66. So, the next time I kill a ‘yote I’ll take the carcass and leave the feet – just so the wiminfolk don’t get all weirded out.

  67. Nah, it’s okay people, it’s just regular old Capitalism.
    Nothing to see here. Keychains, real paws, $15-$18 a corner, Etsy.
    ASPCA should be investigating possible reports of an inconsiderately driven orange ’69 Dodge Charger in the area.

  68. I’ve named my dick “Mr. Nice Guy” because the chicas are always wanting a nice guy.

    He is very sensitive to their needs.

  69. Fucking fantastic! Us old guys have to keep each other’s spirits up. Creating a positive vision for what I call “the third act of my life” is coming along, hence why i’m sounding better. Confidence is a funny thing, I tend to look at it as being more self-loving, self-focused. As a man, I was always other focused in a weird way that I never saw. Even when being arrogant and cocky.

  70. In no particular order:
    “Hard for me to turn her away as a client without seeming like a total ass lol.” – Not true, and your crucial mistake in this entire episode. You can simply say you’d rather not treat her for personal reasons and not explain yourself any further. She can find someone else or not or fucking burst into flames – you do not owe her this. I wonder if you get how you are being very dishonest with yourself in this way? You ache to see her in these sessions, yes? You look forward to them and strategize etc – at least it seems that way to me.

    – Blah, blah, blah blah – You could be explaining to her how to turn lead into gold – she’s not going to react to you. Why? You are paying attention to what she’s saying, not the medium/context/behavior. She’s acting like she’s lukewarm about you – you react by trying to talk her into wanting to fuck you. But you KNOW you can’t negotiate desire, you can only do what you can to fan the flames of it.

    The sex – My goodness, this is the very definition of beta sex. I think part of what’s going on with you here is all about the sex. I think you want to go back and give her the alpha/dominant fucking that you think would turn her on a dime back to you. But you see, that misses that being dominant in the sack can only happen if she’s already highly attracted, it’s the cart before the horse.

    Her words – You are paying far too much attention to her desperate attempts to fend you off. They are not shit tests, but rather she’s saying – “I crave your comfort but you aren’t making me wet.” Don’t take her rejection OR HER LUST too seriously – they are both ephemeral and arise more simply and superficially than we as men want to accept. We are playing chess – they are going where the wind blows them.

    But here’s where I’m going to surprise you. I bet you can fuck her again if you really want to. But you need to completely X her out of the picture. However, it’s all about you grabbing back your own mental point of origin. Cut her off from therapy immediately – not to be manipulative but because it doesn’t serve you. Period. Also, get that you need to create a much more intense and balanced dynamic between the two of you. No “punch in the shoulder” who does that to a woman in the real world? Dude, you are being weird, you have to get that.

    Treat her like any pretty woman in bar that you want to fuck. Demonstrate high value with other women – and do so authentically. I am actually not “interested” in women now who don’t show me IOIs. Sure, I’m initially attracted to many women but that is more like my radar going off, it’s just a signal not a validation of who I am.

    In this case some intense but subtle negging may work. I turned around a plate recently (the pro domme chick – she’s not domme with me). She shared some new portfolio shots with me and I sent back and email with the subject “Green is not your color”. I proceeded to describe why and what was her color. Her reaction? After months of avoiding committing to see me again (she’s been out of town) she reacted by asking to see me when she returns. Fyi, I really hated the green color on her. Pay attention to context and emotional dynamics and behavior. To me, there has to be some tension, some teasing, some to and fro or attraction will not arise.

    You also need to fuck some other women and I don’t care who. You reference “minor plates” – what is that? Oneitis is always cured by sinking your cock into another woman. You must do this if you want to have any chance of fucking this woman again – u see the paradox, yes? You can even pretend it’s your oneitis if you like. Have you ever done that? Just closed your eyes and pretended you were fucking someone else? One of the ways I let go of my Oneitis for my ex was by imagining I was fucking her when with other women. Somehow it was like I was reclaiming my desire by generating it all without her. Weird, I know, but I learned something important about my own sexuality by doing so.

    Hope I’m not being too harsh – I love it when you share and you being so vulnerable and open here. This shit is hard and we all struggle to some degree, and this is the right place to come with this shit, so thanks for sharing all that. I also sympathize greatly – it’s not like you don’t “know” that you should be behaving differently but actually changing the underlying mindset is much harder. It’s like we have these grooves in our ways of being that we fall into without vigilance and discipline.

  71. I’m just catching up on all this and in some ways, this is the most productive RP exchange ever for me. Why?

    Cuz being alpha doesn’t mean being an asshole, being alpha (a horrible term for male dominance) is about setting the frame.

    Example: Cooking dinner. If I’m cooking dinner because it’s “fair” and my share of the work, that’s Beta. If I’m cooking dinner because I love to cook and I do my own recipe and don’t give a fuck that my GF is super picky about every single aspect of food and just make what love – that’s alpha (I don’t make what she hates either). If I choose not to cook and she doesn’t, alpha makes a sandwich for himself. Or goes out.

    All of this has finally fallen into place for me. The most subtle part of this slippery slope is the presumption of equalism as it has infected every aspect of the social context of intersexual dynamics. Just consider cuddling. Sure, if I want to watch a movie or some dumb TV show at the end of the day, and she wants to curl up next to me? Great. In the bedroom? That’s the point of sharing a bed, beyond sex.

    But here’s how my sister does it with her hubby. She makes him watch a show he doesn’t like, and demands he sit on the couch with her. Funnily, this doesn’t satisfy either of them. Her framing takes her nowhere because setting the frame is not really what is going to comfort her.

    I’m reading all the links and stuff and have a lot to digest, but thanks for all this. It’s just fantastic.

  72. Athol’s MAP was a great entry for me. But his message board sucked ballz and got me seriously offtrack for awhile with it’s conflicting “alpha with a side of beta.”

    Every…Single…Time I went the sensitive route I had a setback. Every time I upped the alpha I had a breakthrough. That’s when I abandoned him altogether and started hanging around in healthier neighborhoods (TRM, Heartiste).

    Here’s the crazy contrast that demonstrates how this really works: Years ago when we were first married I bought my wife a brand new car for Christmas one year. Wrapped the fucking thing up in a red bow out in the driveway. About the most supplicating, cringe-worthy beta thing you could do. Was fully expecting that she would be completely overwhelmed with emotion and affection for the incredible thing I had just done to make her happy. What did I get? She sees the car, says “oh wow, thanks” and gives me this curious almost disgusted look like she had found dog shit on the bottom of her shoe. No appreciation, no validation… I couldn’t believe it and was furious at the time.

    Fast forward to a few weeks ago. It’s our anniversary and what do I do? Send her…….. an email. “Happy anniversary.” Worse, I mistakenly send it on the wrong day (a day early). She emails me back, “Thanks honey, but it’s tomorrow.” I reply, “Oh, sorry that’s when it popped up on my computer.”

    We’re sitting around with a group of friends having a drink a few days later and she tells the story of how all I did for our anniversary was send her an email on the wrong day.

    (And here’s the really super-subtle part that you have to pay close attention to.)

    She wasn’t really complaining. She was only faux-complaining. The best way to describe it was as a kind “humble brag” – those self-deprecating stories that really are told to draw attention to something you’re proud of.

    Sure it looked like she was complaining about what an inconsiderate asshole I was. All the wives we were with were saying “Oh my God! No he didn’t!” They’re all laughing and yucking it up. The husbands are saying, “Man I’d be dead if I did that.”

    But what she was really conveying was way more subtextual. What she was really communicating to all of these other wives was that she was queen chicken at the top of the pecking order. That she had a high value man who had loads of important shit to do and couldn’t be bothered with trifles like anniversary’s and such. A man on the go. A man who puts himself first.

    How do I know this? You just watch the subcomms and body language closely. After she tells her little story, all of the women turn their attention to me. They literally all turn their bodies to face me. They light up like Christmas trees. They’re flirty as hell. They’re teasing and joking with me. Telling me what a jerk I am. Playfully punching me in the arm. Throwing off IOI’s left and right. Even in front of their husbands.

    I look over at the wife at one point, and she’s sitting there beaming with pride and this look of perfect contentment on her face that basically says “Yeah, look what I got bitches.”

    Now, she would never in a million years admit that any of this was her intention. In fact, from an evo-psych standpoint she’s likely not even consciously aware of it. But the non-verbals and subcomms are undeniable. It’s the best real life illustration I’ve seen of the “Skittles Man” phenomenon. https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/be-a-skittles-man/

  73. Turns out that coyote skinning is a lot harder if you leave the feet on. Here’s a vid of a guy skinning a coyote and in the beginning he makes clear that he’s going to skin it with the claws on but that it takes quite a bit more effort to do so. Cutting the feet off makes for easier skinning. You can see how much of the time spent doing this skinning focuses on the feet/claws.

  74. In a long article on how to remove coyote pelts.
    “Start by cutting off all four legs right above the second joint, using a real sharp hatchet. Make sure you lay the legs on a sturdy log or steady, rock-solid surface of some type. By doing this you won’t dull your hatchet. The lower part of the leg is discarded because there isn’t enough fur on it to be of any value.”

    http://www.foremostcoyotehunting.com/2011/02/how-to-remove-coyote-pelt-and-prepare.html

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