Artificial Joy

Of all the scenes in the Matrix, Cypher’s 30 pieces of silver moment here is the one that requires the most suspension of disbelief. Granted, it’s the Matrix, so you’re going in with a lot of suspended disbelief, and I understand Cypher’s Judas moment is central to the movie’s plot, but for as cerebral and philosophically rich as the Matrix is, this scene begs a lot of questions.

First we have to consider how long Cypher’s been cut away from the Matrix – 9 years. His experience of awakening, or something like it, we can presume was much like Neo’s. Shock, disbelief, denial, depression and finally acceptance. The experience Cypher and Neo, and anyone else so unplugged, would somewhat follow a predictable path, and thus the people doing the unplugging have pre-established programs to help those awakened adjust to a ‘real’ life.

What Cypher has here is 9 years of experiencing the harsh reality of the ‘real’. Although he understands it, he wants to forget it. He wants the comfort and bliss that being unconscious and ignorant in the Matrix makes possible for him.

The disbelief we have to suspend here is that the automatons of the Matrix will actually honor their end of the bargain and graciously wipe away all of his memories of being in the real world, to say nothing of actually improving Cypher’s ‘life’, such as it is, once he’s blissfully oblivious of the ‘real’. One would think that after 9 years of watching the Matrix ‘code and understanding how that system works Cypher wouldn’t have been so naive as to think that the system wouldn’t simply kill him once he’d betrayed Morpheus to it.

Still, the want for an escape from harsh realities is certainly an aspect of the human condition. We all have them and for the most part they’re harmless distractions to ease what we can bear of the real world. However, depending upon the personality and the severity of the need to escape, we can find ourselves preferring the fantasy to the reality. This is what can make harmless distractions into compulsive obsessions. It’s easy to on pick MMO games as an illustration, but the ‘addiction’ element of them stems from a personality that prefers the fantasy to the reality of its conditions.

Artificial Joy

Cypher is one such individual. He’s been rejected by Trinity – one of the only two women on his ship – in favor of the (at the time contextual) Alpha of a better looking and less creepy Neo. He resents Trinity’s attraction to Neo and spends his off hours watching encoded Matrix porn (not only a Buffer, but also an escape) and has a direct line to the only alcohol on the ship (courtesy of Dozer). Both of these classic male escapes, and many more just like them, are the characteristic remedy intended to cope with a reality that borders on insufferable. It’s almost prescient that this movie was written and released well before the rise of ubiquitous internet porn.

“If you entirely removed men’s access to porn and booze from society the male suicide rate would increase tenfold.”

I’ve read this comment on a couple of manosphere blogs in the past, and it’s almost a truism when you consider the most visceral of Buffers men turn to in order to escape their realities. Whether or not that guy is lost in his blue pill  mental jail cell or he feels destitute in the perceived  hopelessness of a cruel, but real, red pill existence he’s unprepared for, a man will always look for his escapes – and usually he gravitates, and fixates upon the ones that best satisfy what he’s unable to actualize.

On second thought, maybe we don’t need to suspend any disbelief with Cypher. Once we understand that condition and situation, and the abject lack of an ability to adress it, can drive someone to desperation, to hopeless suicide, acts of violence, to fanciful absorbing escapes, etc., ‘real’ naive beliefs and willful intellectual negligences seem of small consequence by comparison.

Reinsertion

I’m using Cypher’s character here today thanks to an enlightening post Athol Kay dropped last week. I disagree with his assertion here that red pill men need their occasional blue pill escapisms, but really only in how he’s applying terms. Athol sites this same video and character to illustrate how men have a desire (need?) to regress back into their former ‘magical thinking’ in order to cope with the reality our red pill, our Game awareness, our new ability to make sense of, and confront, our conditioning and the mechanics of fem-centrism now demands of Men.

My main objection is conflating to blue pill ignorance as some sort of escape that a Man might artificially enjoy from time to time in order to balance the harsh, and admittedly cruel truths his new awareness brings to him.

The trouble is, a lot of the Red Pill approach to life assumes a near telepathic assumption of negative intentions in others. Is it often right? Sure it is. But it’s almost impossible to live happily if you are endlessly paranoid and jaded about the intentions of everyone around you. If every woman is a hot mess of whorish desire and nothing else but a lying cunt of a hamster justifying her Alpha male sperm seeking… well it gets tiring being on edge after a while. Likewise every man is a third wheel seeking an opportunity and plots behind your back, pumping you for information about your woman, seeking to make a run into the endzone the moment you blink too slowly.

I read versions of this breakdown from a lot of guys who resist the idea of a red pill or a Game awareness altogether when it’s first presented to them and they acknowledge the basics of it. I addressed this in The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill and Bitter Misogynists, but the simple version is that what’s being outlined for red pill men seems too hopelessly nihilistic to actually be true. It sounds so paranoid and attention consuming that it can’t actually be.

From The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill:

The truth will set you free, but it doesn’t make truth hurt any less, nor does it make truth any prettier, and it certainly doesn’t absolve you of the responsibilities that truth requires. One of the biggest obstacles guys face in unplugging is accepting the hard truths that Game forces upon them. Among these is bearing the burden of realizing what you’ve been conditioned to believe for so long were comfortable ideals and loving expectations are really liabilities. Call them lies if you want, but there’s a certain hopeless nihilism that accompanies categorizing what really amounts to a system that you are now cut away from. It is not that you’re hopeless, it’s that you lack the insight at this point to see that you can create hope in a new system – one in which you have more direct control over.

Little Lies

The reason most men experience this initial hopelessness is because their only prior frame of reference for the way life works up until then has been that of a blue pill existence. It’s a very difficult aspect of killing the Beta and relearning how to exist in a red pill awareness – most men either reject it in wholesale denial or they turn paranoid and see the signs of the real intent or the underlying motivations for every action a woman or man presents them with as per Athol’s example.

The trouble this presents is one of switching a man’s paradigm from blue pill to red pill. Many transitioning guys tell me how impossible it is to “keep up the act” that they believe a red pill awareness requires of them. They believe so because their operative mindset, the direction they think will work best for them, are still based on the rules and mental framework of their former blue pill existence.

In the blue pill Matrix, everything was set for them, but with a red pill awareness comes the responsibility of doing things for themselves. They’re unprepared and cut away from a comforting system, but they don’t know what to do with that freedom. They understand that the blue pill is really a complex series of little lies meant to soften painful truths, and that they’d tell themselves more little lies to comfort themselves when those truths’ consequences hurt them, but now they know better. They have only themselves to blame for allowing the speeding, red pill train they knew was coming to flatten them. For one so unprepared it seems impossible to avoid.

Internalization

NEO: So what’re you trying to tell me, that I can dodge bullets?

MORPHEUS: No Neo, what I’m trying to tell you is that when you’re ready, you wont have to.

The problem lies in the assumption that Red Pill awareness is a consuming force in a Man’s life that demands his constant effort and vigilance to defend himself against.

Once this awareness is internalized and becomes a part of a Man’s personality there is no vigilance, just awareness. There is a subconscious understanding of the order of things from a red pill perspective, but that doesn’t mean I suspect the female bank teller I’m making a deposit with is ready to rob me blind the moment I turn to walk out the door.

Neil Strauss hinted at ‘social robots’ in The Game; guys who were nothing but Game all the time and were unable to make real emotional connections. I would argue just the opposite. The real danger inherent in Game and Red Pill awareness is a man using it to fulfill his former blue pill idealisms – that does require a constant effort.

A healthy red pill awareness requires not only a Man’s reassessment and recreation of himself, but also that he abandon his former blue pill paradigm and learn to live in a new, positive, red pill paradigm. It seems like a daunting task when you first come to terms with it, but ultimately your awareness becomes an internalized part of who you are. You can allow that to consume you with a paranoia  rooted in your former blue pill frame, or you can learn to create hope in a new system – one that you not only have more control over, but one that requires you to assume that control.

Don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better. Easier is telling yourself that you actually need the little lies the blue pill provides. Easier is is thinking the blue pill is the sugar that helps the medicine go down. Better is recreating a new, positively masculine, direction for yourself based on the awareness and the opportunity that the red pill provides and requires of you.

*Before I finish here I want to say that this post was in no way a ‘take down’ of Athol’s article. I have nothing but respect for the guy and count him as a valuable peer and colleague. His work with MMSL is a much needed resource in the manosphere, and I can’t say enough good things about his efforts. I simple disagree with his take on a need for blue pill illusion.


109 responses to “Artificial Joy

  • Leap of a Beta

    Good post.

    Once you truly accept the world as it is and work on increasing your masculinity, you’ll find you’re a new man in a new world. It takes some time to search for what you really want out of life, rather than what you were previously told. Following the same desires with a new skill set, or not cultivating new desires at all, is an unhealthy way to live. Instead, start engaging the world on your terms, rather than theirs, and take what you want from it. When you’re able to do that, you’ll be on a good path to find contentment and satisfaction.

  • earl

    I agree that going back to blue pill thinking to cope with the red pill isn’t the best way.

    But instead of artificial joy…man does need real joy. Part of taking control of your masculinity is also using empathy as a way to control your emotions and spread joy out into the world. There are very few places in the world you will find joy…so when you do, treat it as the treasure it is.

  • Martel

    My problem with Kay’s comments was his implicit assumption that most of what’s good in life is actually Blue Pill. Happiness derived from delusion is still delusion, and it will come crashing down on you just the same.

    At the same time, the real world isn’t all bad. When you accept life’s realities, you’ll find that many of them suck, but not all of them.

  • Alex

    I think the hardest part of unplugging is taking the ego plunge of saying “there are things about me that suck, and I need to change them.” Most men are just too invested in their egos, and they think their ideas are their identity. Once you realize that this isn’t true, and that ideas are like software – meaning you can update to a new program – you can wrap your ego around the idea of unplugging a little bit easier.

    Also once you realize that your blue pill mentality isn’t even your own idea, but a product of being socialized in a particular way, you can distance yourself from it more easily. Most men never think about where they got the idea to pedestalize women and supplicate them – they just kind of do it because the cathedral has brainwashed them into thinking that the universe will karmically reward them for trucking with the feminine imperative.

    I couldn’t deny the realities of game and the red pill once I filtered everything about my own love life, and what I had observed about those of my friends and family, though the maxims of the red pill. Everything made sense. I couldn’t deny the utter truth of it all.

    It takes a lot of character to be able to say “my outlook on women is wrong, and I suck at getting pussy.” But as they say, the first step to fixing a problem is admitting that you have one.

    As an aside – doesn’t it strike you as interesting that the three biggest social activities of men in the united states are basically just avenues for the primal masculine id? Pornography, first person shooter games, and sports. Fucking, fighting/killing, and physical tests of muster.

    That’s where the id has gone – it’s still there. There is a real man in most men waiting to be woken up. If you’re a healthy man, quit fapping, quit your x box, and stop watching so much sports. Get into a gym, start lifting, start eating healthy, and start approaching women with the attitude that you deserve to get pussy and be happy. And for god fucking sake don’t take any advice from women on what women want.

  • Transmillenium

    Kill Cypher? Why would the agents do that to betray him? They can betray their end of the deal with a better idea: don’t erase his memory nor his Red Pill, take all his power and connections and make him a poor hobo holding signs…”We live in the Matrix”

  • walawala

    interesting and timely. I just posted about this in “He’s Special”….

    The blue-pill-ish comment I made to the girl I was banging: “I thought you were the one person who could make me believe in love again. I was wrong.”

    Only elicted a very negative backlash of how selfish and uncaring I am.

    Hmmmmm. I know I’m not. In fact I know that i struggle against beta-backsliding.

    So why would a girl make such a comment? Women lose attraction when they see a guy’s value go down. The reasons could be many.

    But in my pseudo-Blue-pill post, the very thought I believed in love, or someone thought I could believe in love…was openly mocked, not seen as a vulnerable admission.

    Blue-pill Game…is self-delusional. It’s anti-game. The idea of suggesting a girl was capable of “helping” or “inspiring” a guy to find “love”…is unicorn thinking….to the very target.

    My foray into Blue-pill game shows me, perhaps in the cruelest way that even a suggestion that love exists on some level is absurd.

    Game helps to ensure the power-balance remains where nature intended.

  • MMA

    Doesn’t the larger issue go back to the difference between the PUA crowd and the MGTOW crowd?

    Usually when I experience frustration in one of those aspects, it’s a sign to me that I need to spend some time focusing on the other. Too much time spent in the gym and not giving a shit about women leaves me lonely and likely to jerk off. Hence, it’s time to ramp up my game. Too much time spent on game keeps me from enjoying time with the bro’s, on my motorcycle, training for Tough Mudder, etc.

    Althol’s MAP has been a great guide.

    Personally, the biggest struggle has been to stay away from the too dark anger of some of the MGTOW group, but use that to know that hypergamy will still shiv me in the yard if given the chance.

  • Daniel

    Quite a change from your comments last April:

    “Athol Kay is just Susan Walsh with a penis. I’m glad he’s been able to parlay his blog into some revenue, but he still lives in girl-world and has since he was a 24 year old virgin. Just like Susan, he plays to the feel-good female emotive response while offering just enough of what he could stomach of the Red Pill ideology he learned from Roosh and Roissy to sound like a convincing teacher for married guys with sexually disinterested wives.

    I’d say he was a sell-out, only his whole personal journey has always been about reconciling his white knighting with his sex drive.”

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/congratulations-athol-kay-and-mmsl/

    I’m curious what happen to change your view so dramatically.

  • Kate

    @walawala: “Me: you were the first person i thought could make me believe in love again. I was wrong.

    Her: you are selfish, i needed you to comfort me and care for me . YOU LOVE YOURSELF. you don’t care about others.”

    She may have been reacting badly to having let you done. Some women really do care about pleasing their men. You gave her a compliment in that she almost made you believe in love and then with your second line you took that away from her. So she was childish and threw an insult back at you.

    Were the two of you having a fight? What brought this on?

  • Random guy

    Another really good post by Tomassi. This guy has been the leading voice in the manosphere for a while now. Keep up the good work.

  • Kate

    Rollo: “The real danger inherent in Game and Red Pill awareness is a man using it to fulfill his former blue pill idealisms – that does require a constant effort.”

    I remember writing in the fall about a purple pill: using red pill knowledge to make blue pill dreams come true. Why do you consider that dangerous and a constant effort? Won’t most men who turn red pill have to interact with the blue pill world in some way? What is your version of the red pill way out that is not MGTOW?

  • snoeperd

    Who gives a fuck about awareness if you’re depressed. I’m so aware! fucking great

  • Jeremy

    A healthy red pill awareness requires not only a Man’s reassessment and recreation of himself, but also that he abandon his former blue pill paradigm and learn to live in a new, positive, red pill paradigm. It seems like a daunting task when you first come to terms with it, but ultimately your awareness becomes an internalized part of who you are. You can allow that to consume you with a paranoia rooted in your former blue pill frame, or you can learn to create hope in a new system – one that you not only have more control over, but one that requires you to assume that control.

    Yes. And more.

    Coming to awareness of game and it’s implications is a shift from the belief in a bargaining process that you’ve known all your life to one that is initially counter-intuitive, somewhat frightening, and yet promises to provide actual fulfillment. Suppose you lived your life believing that the barter system was all that exists. You grew up, became an adult, raised a family, all while depending on trading value for value. If someone wanted your cow, they had to provide 2-3 goats or some equivalent. This arrangement is simple but doesn’t give you everything you need, namely portability for your value, or the chance to increase wealth by storing it in a non-perishable form. Now someone proposes that in order to get what you want out of life, you need to use paper bills in the form of money. That money is going to look valueless to someone who only knows the barter system. It will seem extraordinarily frightening to hand food and/or livestock value to someone for a piece of paper. You will find yourself paranoid about the prices people ask for various things you spend your money on, it will seem like all the merchants are out to get you. Red pill knowledge is generally a gigantic move from one form of valuing yourself and others to something that from your prior perspective seems entirely devoid of value and actually dirty/evil. However, once you’ve grown accustomed to a stable currency, stable prices, paying your taxes and bills in paper instead of chickens and cows, and stashing the paper away so that you can survive a harsh winter instead of hoping your livestock survives, you realize life is much better than it was before.

    That analogy is a rough fit, but the point is there. the feelings of wanting the blue pill after recognizing the truth in the red pill is a yearning for an old value system that seems simple and pretty, but won’t bring you any closer to what you actually need.

    Recognizing the the advantages of a red pill perspective on life takes as much time and thought as some barter-system villager recognizing the value in a banking system. It can be done, but it takes some re-learning.

  • Freewill, unplugging, and depression….. | My journey to thrive….

    […] was incorrect, the past couple of days, and Rollo’s ArtificialJoy, make it clear to me what is happening.   Applying my reading from long ago, in correlation with […]

  • Fred Flange, Himself

    My own awakening was more akin to scales falling from my eyes, and me saying “OK! Now THIS finally makes sense!” And because it made sense and explained so much of what had up to then seemed so unjust and wrong, I couldn’t stay angry about all the wasted years in beta-ville. Was it/is it difficult to apply and keep perfecting? Sure, it is. I have much to learn, and I’m older than most here so I won’t have as much time. But the gift of a new open-eyed worldview was such a joy and relief that the bitterness of owning up to my heinous mistakes seemed more like some spice on the meal rather than a ghastly-tasting medicine.

  • Yep It's Me

    Was watching the movie Pitch Black the other day and thought this quote fits with your article…

    Imam: Because you do not believe in God does not mean God does not believe in you.
    Riddick: Think someone could spend half their life in a slam with a horse bit in their mouth and not believe? Think he could start out in some liquor store trash bin with an umbilical cord wrapped around his neck and not believe? Got it all wrong, holy man. I absolutely believe in God… And I absolutely hate the fucker.

    It fits because if you substitute the knowledge of the Red Pill in there, instead of God, you get the same type of thought process. Basically – you can be a sincere believer in the “world as it really is” and still not like it very much.

    In this case, we as Red Pill believers can see how we lived before, the evidence all around us (once our eyes are open) – but that does not mean we have to like it, or in some cases even accept it – there are plenty of people that live in their own fantasy world. But for those with a true level of acceptance – we can dislike it, but still embrace it and make it work for our own benefit.

    In my personal opinion, swimming with the current makes the most sense.

  • Ceniek

    It was Donlak if I remember well who pointed aspect of reality which you mentioned.
    You may be red pill man but you still live in blue pill World.
    Either you will be above them all and alone forever or you will learn how to live in this environment being still red pill man.

  • deti

    There’s a bible verse that (I’m paraphrasing) says that for the believer, trying to return to his old ways will make him even more miserable than he was before he accepted Christ, and will ultimately destroy him.

    So it is with the truths we learned and studied. You can’t go back. But even if you could, would you want to?

    I can’t go back. I know too much now.

  • Seven Dials

    Ah yes, Cypher’s treachery. He’s not going back to the Matrix because he can’t stand the truth. He’s going back because the Truth has lousy food and is run by a man wearing silly glasses who speaks in riddles, and the only woman there has turned him down. The Matrix may not be “real”, but it’s a damn sight less dull and boring than the dutiful, threadbare, unplugged reality.

    Cypher has two functions. He’s a plot device, without which the Agents don’t get Morpheus and the movie stops half-way through. But he’s also there for the people who don’t buy that revolt and dissension is a Good Thing. He’s every plugged-in Blue Pill man and woman in the cinema. And they believe the Agents will keep their word (after all, why wouldn’t they? what’s the cost?).

    In our world, Red Pill reality isn’t that hard. I never really trusted women, because I knew that they were lying about “not being that kind of girl” right from when I was old enough to want them to be that kind of girl with me. I knew they were husband-hunting (my generation of women in the UK were married younger than any pot-war generation before or since) and were doing it with all the professionalism and single-mindedness of a door-to-door salesman. All I wanted to do was get laid. But then, most people cannot live like that.

    That’s why we have a National Lottery in the UK. It’s designed to raise money for good causes and culture. It’s a way for the government to tax the poor and the despairing so that the middle classes can have opera and other stuff. Everyone knew it was that from the start. Doesn’t stop the poor and despairing playing it every week. The middle-class beneficiaries don’t play it, nor does anyone who understands gambling odds and payoffs. The jackpot winners either go for anonymity, or turn out to be unemployed people in Essex (Essex = the rough parts of New Jersey for our American readers). National Lottery = marriage / live-ins + children. Though the odds are slightly better on marriage (3:2 on) thought the losses are much, much larger.

    But you know what? Most people really do believe that “you can’t win if you don’t play”, that “it is better to have loved and divorce-raped, than never to have loved at all”. They are wired that way. The majority want to know that they can Follow Their Bliss, that The Right Man / Woman Is Out There, and There’s A Place For Us, Somewhere A Place For Us…

    And that’s what Cypher is there to confirm to them. That their belief and trust in the Blue Pill will be rewarded.

  • earl

    I couldn’t go back either. When you know too much every time you are out in the world you see it and understand it. Eventually you don’t need to dodge bullets because you know what a bullet is.

    I read an article about the recent Tim Duncan divorce (NBA player for the Spurs). Everything he did before he got married to the chick reeked of oneitis and betatude (called her 5 times a day and professed his love for her constantly)…and this is a guy with millions of dollars and fame. He hired a private investigator to basically confirm she cheated on him. I could tell way before he got married the things he did wrong to plant the seeds of this divorce.

    I’d rather know and have righteous anger…than to not know and feel angry at everyone for no reason.

  • Jeremy

    That’s interesting to learn about Duncan, he always struck me as super beta. It’s also interesting to note such a real life example that fabulous wealth and fame are not enough to save a dyed-in-the-wool beta. Yes, women want the provider, but they want the alpha more, even if the provider can provide the literal f-ing world to them.

  • Jeremy

    Actually, lets compare NBA players.

    Tim Duncan vs Kobe Bryant

    Tim Duncan:
    Doted on a woman he loved for years.
    Offered her fame & money.
    Tried to appease her to keep her with him.
    End result: She left him

    Kobe Bryant:
    Married a girl against his parents wishes
    Offered her fame & money.
    Cheated on her in a case that nearly had him legally called a rapist
    End result: She stayed with him

    EL-OH-EL.

  • strauMan (@strauMan)

    I spend my time wondering what’s next?

    Will the Manosphere continue to exist as an underground phenomenon or will it one day erupt like a volcano?

    Life has taught me that everything has a balance. The FI is balanced by Red Pill Men; however, the balance is too far skewed.

    Perhaps there is something else we are all unaware of waiting down the line. Time will tell I suppose.

  • earl

    “She stayed with him”

    She’s filed for divorce when they hit the magical 10 year mark in California plus Kobe payed enough money to feed a small nation on a rock for her after his romp in Colorado…but from what I’ve read they are still sort of together and trying to make it work.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Daniel, yes this deserves some explanation.

    I’m afraid I was a bit too brash when I wrote than on Dal’s blog and I severely regret having done so.

    My opinion then was really based on what I knew of Athol’s first edition of his blog prior to his book, forum and his MAP. I’ll admit I went off half-cocked and had another manosphere friend tell me so, and that I really needed to check out what he’d been working on.

    I did so, and like I said I regretted that comment. I misjudged him, and sent him a private email apologizing for it. Our takes may vary on certain issues, but we’re far more alike than we are different, and I’ll occasionally contribute on his forums with my input now.

    Unfortunately the internet never forgets, but I’ll admit when I’m wrong, and I was wrong.

  • LostSailor

    It seems like a daunting task when you first come to terms with it, but ultimately your awareness becomes an internalized part of who you are.

    And it can take years. It was helpful for me to apply the same reasoning I used to lose 45 lbs post-divorce to digesting the Red Pill (it’s not just about swallowing it): I didn’t pack on the pounds in just a few months, so it’s unreasonable to think that they’ll come off in a few months, it’s a long-haul kind of thing. Same with the Red Pill. It took a lot of indoctrination over a long time to fully become Blue Pill, so you’re not going to become fully Red Pill right away. It’s a long-haul process.

    But your point about ultimately merging Red Pill acceptance into just another part of who you are is an important one. Just as Neo only came into his full abilities when he could finally “see” the Matrix in real time, when you finally “see” the feminist matrix in real time, it becomes much easier to manipulate it to your advantage. And then, it doesn’t seem like an effort…

  • Ton

    Happiness comes from a 700 pound deadlift and trophy bucks on the walls.

  • Tilikum

    eh, I think MMSL is suffering from age induced testosterone drain as its been getting pretty blue lately.

  • This Way

    I took the red pill five years ago, discovering it on my own, and was pleased to find the manosphere over the last couple of years documenting and communicating things I had to find out on my own after a bitter divorce and re-entering the dating market.

    I could never go back to a blue pill existence, but recently I broke down into a deep depression thinking of my years and years of blue pill existence. Severe one-itis as a young adult wasted one decade, then a second decade was wasted in a beta marriage. Add another two years of divorce turbulance and there you have a good chunk of my life utterly wasted.

    I am a different man which these things could never happen again, and I pity the fool I was for over half of my life. All that wasted time. All those wasted opportunities. I lived my entire life for others, or what I thought what others wanted, instead of living life for me. Never again.

    The red pill is indeed a bitter pill to swallow and I am ashamed when I look back on that part of my existence. I am ashamed even more when I see other men clinging to a beta existence, but there is only so much I can do to show them the way.

  • D-Man

    “Don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better.”

    If only wishing were reliable. Red Pill ennui can reach into other areas of life, too. Just today, a good buddy asked me if I want to go see [insert big-name musical act]‘s show when they roll into town.

    I just can’t reconcile overpaying someone who’s already massively rich for the privilege of cheering for them so they can feel like the absolute King Alpha one more night. I would feel like a complete sucker the whole time. Maybe it has something to do with being a nonstarter musician myself, I dunno.

    But one thing is for sure – as every 2 year old boy discovers but is subsequently indoctrinated to forget – there is power in NO.

    NO I won’t get married. NO I won’t work my ass off to get reamed by taxes…

    This is probably more depressing than being a sucker and not knowing it… but maybe I wanna see how far down the rabbit hole goes.

  • BC

    eh, I think MMSL is suffering from age induced testosterone drain as its been getting pretty blue lately.

    I second this. I respect Athol’s MAP and if I had a friend who was already married or about to get married and needed help I would definitely send them to MMSL (along with a healthy balance of other readings, re: dread, etc.), but otherwise, probably not as there have been more than a few times over the last six months or so in particular that I have shaken my head and muttered “HUS for men” after reading a post.

  • Yep It's Me

    Maybe this is just sour grapes on my part, but I believe part of the problem with the MMLS forum is the encouragement and acceptance of women. Personally, we as men fuck up all the time by allowing women to join in the discussion of our shit. I don’t care how red pill they are – it’s a fact that they are different – and no matter how much acceptance they have of the “way the world really works” – they don’t know us, our feeling, our thoughts, or how to help.

    MMLS has more estrogen these days – which is why I quit being active on the board – both from men and women. Now worth my time anymore. Love the concept and really respect Athol – but his site is going down hill and headed to girly hell.

  • Bob Wallace

    “If every woman is a hot mess of whorish desire and nothing else but a lying cunt of a hamster justifying her Alpha male sperm seeking.”

    The Manosphere has a long way to go and it can only doing by going backward to past wisdom.

    Men who see women as the above description see them as Whores. The opposite of that is the Madonna, which is how “Betas” (sic) see them.

    The Madonna and the Whore has bee noticed for, oh, a few thousand years, I suppose.

    When you can see a woman in her good and bad she is then personified by what the Greeks called Sophia – the goddess of Wisdom.

  • Daniel

    Athol has encouraged (read:demanded) his board to be estrogen friendly for two reasons:

    First:$$$. He needs his project to be successful to support his family. Women buy more books than men and thus pad his pockets more (remind anyone of churches and their direction?).

    Second: fear of feminist. He thinks having women actively support his site will protect it from crazy feminist.

    It’s obvious that MMSL is watered down red pill. It even says on the forum: “Teaching Nice Guys to add a little Bad Boy without becoming Total Douchebags.” Does that sound closer to Roissy or closer to HUS doctrine?

    I’m surprised you retracted your statement, Rollo. Perhaps with your upcoming book release, you’ve realized (like Athol) that you can sell more copies by just toning it down a little.

  • Mark Minter

    Rollo, you need to stop following me around, spying on what I search on Google, quit eavesdropping on my Facebook conversations, and then using what you learn to create these posts that seem so pertinent and timely

    What other explanation could there be? Tell me? How did you know that I have been offered 30 pieces of silver? This very week. How else could you have known that?

    And how else could you know that that the topics I read and research fuel and feed that sense of paranoia, that belief that Lucy is going to lure me nto that old kicking the football routine and yank it out one more time.

    Yeah, this week alone I been on a very strange trip continuing with that polyandry theme, one woman, multiple men. Even though it exists as some tiny fraction of mating organization in the total number of recognized societies, both classical and non-classical, it appears that it is not an adaption that is suited to some regime like population imbalance or dire ecological circumstances that would require multiple men in order to support the reproductive necessity that women are.

    It seems to be possibly wired into women. The male penis is relatively huge as are the testes in ratio to overall size of men. The head of the penis acts as a squeegie to squeege out the semen of other men. The sperm count ejaculated into a women is far higher than another species that has a more predictably monogamous female.

    And the coup de grace, the woman’s orgasm, is possibly suited to compel her into polyandry and infidelity. Some researches believe it useless, unnecessary, some echo of the more necessary male orgasm, that the clitoris is an unnecessary analog to the head of the male penis, much as nipples on men are unnecessary, yet a result of the development of the fetus, which goes through an androgynous phase before sexual traits begin to develop,

    But, no, any man that has experienced her orgasm, knows better, that it is not some baggage of selection, that it serves a purpose. And there is a camp of researchers that believes that it exists exactly because the woman is conscious, that she recognizes the cost of pregnancy and reproduction, and her orgasm is the bait to bring her to intercourse. She has 7 times the nerve endings in her clitoris as a man has in the head of his penis. And her orgasm is far more explosive than the equivalent in men.

    And the kicker, is that she can have multiples, which researchers believe shows her evolutionary past as polyandrous. A man may only have one during a copulation cycle, but she may have multiple, that she has an evolutionary past of perhaps, gang bangs.

    Yes, our girl is not naturally monogamous, or naturally polygamous. She can be quite polyandrous and is possibly more susceptible to it than any other mating regime. There was a poll on one of the women’s pages with the question, “If there were no hard feelings, how many husbands would you want?” The answer that received the most votes was 1. BUT, the sum of the other quantities was higher than the winning value of 1. Second to 1 was “As many as I could get.” When I searched the term “polyandry”, guess which website came up as the number 2 link after the Wikipedia definition of the word.

    Jezebel.

    One of the most informative writings I read was by a Mensa girl. She said, of course polyandry exists, at least in her world, that world of MIT and Cal Tech students. She lettered in Cheerleading and Math team. Nobody had to explain polyandry to her. In her world, the imbalance is 220 to 100, the smaller number being females. In her world she could not only have the man she wanted but another one also, and even another if she choose. And in her world there is no “blank-slatey” naivete on either the part of the women or the men. The Mensa boy that can only feel himself with a Mensa woman like her understands he must share, and do it without stupidity, jealousy, possession, that some is better than none.

    And what we could be in the midst of is a polyandry regime. That we as men, look at the behavior of women, and we see this pattern of polygamy, with women in the soft harems of alpha men with beta,delta, gamma, and omega men excluded.

    And quite the reverse could be occurring, that some women are actually polyandrous with multiple “husbands”. The demographics favor them in a manner somewhat less than our Mensa girl, but obesity, declining birth rates, and the ever present wall occurring earlier for women than for men all lend to create an imbalance that favors polyandry. Perhaps she has one gamma “husband” for attention, another beta for finance, another alpha for sex, and that she actually controls her own harem, a collection of deluded alphas, wishful betas, and even resentful gammas, all at her beck and call. And over the past 40 years, she certainly has demonstrated a pattern of rotating polyandry as she trades “husbands” in and out via serial monogamy and divorce. And now men might be faced with a more overt form of polyandry.

    And that returns us to the paranoia, Lucy and the football, and that Red Pill awareness that most likely she will yank away that football.

    And the thing I have been dealing with week, this week of 30 pieces of silver, is the flip side of Red Pill. Self-disgust. Ok, you know how they are, the reality of hypergamy. And part of the rage of it all is that awareness, that reality, that they do choose as they do, on basis of the criteria they use, and underneath it is that fear that you just don’t measure up, Red Pill awareness in Blue Pill frame Lucy is gonna fucking do it to me again.

    “Don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better. ”

    “A healthy red pill awareness requires not only a Man’s reassessment and recreation of himself, but also that he abandon his former blue pill paradigm and learn to live in a new, positive, red pill paradigm.”

    Know this, our girl, Pollyandra, is polyandrous for one reason, and it can be summarized in the theft of an adage from football, “A coach with 2 quarterbacks doesn’t have 1 quarterback”. The romance novel sections are not crammed with polyandrous heroines. The only polyandrous story I can think of is Snow White, and “the one” awakens her.

    There is a constant theme in the Manosphere these days, this search for meaning. Where to now?

    I am sorry there is no meaning. But there is hope.

    NEO: So what’re you trying to tell me, that I can dodge bullets?

    MORPHEUS: No Neo, what I’m trying to tell you is that when you’re ready, you wont have to.

    We know, deep down, what we have to do, each of us. And one day, if you do what must be done, then you will be ready.

  • treylesnorth

    Rollo,

    Thank you. I read the minor debates on MMSL. I do like Athol’s comparison of red pill to muscle and blue to fat. Seemed that got lost in the mix

  • earl

    “Don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better.”

    Eventually you past the point where you don’t wish anymore. You don’t WANT it to be easier…and you WANT to get better.

  • gregg

    What does it mean “internalizing red pill”? “Internalizing” knowledge about women means treating them in ancient terms – like herd animals and disposable fuck toys, they are. How can any trully red pill man marry is just beyond me. It is no miracle that majority of men are not willing to go deep into red pill. Their ability to ever bond with women might be eternally fucked.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Daniel, have a look at my comments and the exchanges I have with Athol and Jack here and tell me if you think I’m toning anything down:

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2013/05/why-you-need-the-blue-pill-too/

  • walawala

    @Kate, there had been some slow, insidious distancing by her under the guise of being “busy” with work.

    I called her out on this nonsense—bad move. She reacted defensively.

    Some back and forth. So yes, there’d been some tension in the month.

    She never made the same efforts. I made the mistake of expressing my frustration. This was the result.

    In retrospect, I should have just let her go and did my own thing but…i had a momentary lapse of reason and believed the Blue Pill falacy..

    Feelings aren’t facts. Should have realized that and had better game. I’m in no contact and conscious of avoiding beta backsliding.

  • eon

    gregg,

    I have always thought that internalizing, as in “walking the path” and not just “knowing the path”, the last part of your comment:

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/25/the-5-stages-of-unplugging/#comment-8021

    was a more definitive sixth-stage of unplugging.

    “In my mid twenties I began my job as an advocate dealing with divorces. I was determined to protect those angelic women from baaad, baaad devilish men. To my suprise, I witnessed behaviour of women even Satan himself would be proud of having. And I observed something more. Those women doing those acts of ultimate betrayal to their spouses were completely unaware of doing anything wrong! Minute later they could be in acquisitive mode with their new boyfriend – all innocent and sweety.

    Higher knowledge, morals and awareness, some higher soul must have been denied to women. Our elders were right in this one.

    That was my red pill. After those experiences I could NEVER trust women to be loyal. Neither can I take any of them seriously. I like them the same way I like children. Plus sex. I definitely will not enter in any form of serious business with them – marriage included. I play with them, spend my time with them. I enjoy their feminine energy and pleasure in their acquisitive mode, but I am no longer able to look at them as my equal “partner”. They are definitely inferior in many values I admire and hold for myself. No material for serious matters in this environment.”

  • Höllenhund

    Daniel is right and his description of MMSL is also right. You don’t owe MMSL an apology, because he has an agenda. People who base their livelihood wholly or partially on the income they generate through the Internet will always have an agenda, because they need to keep the money coming in. And if one has an agenda, one is no longer pursuing the truth.

    Athol wants to sell his book. Susan Walsh wants to get in a position where she can sell hers. Don’t fall for them. They promote Game 2.0.

  • Kate

    @walawala: Not to give excuses, but perhaps provide insight, I remember being very preoccupied with work in my twenties. It wasn’t until after I had my daughter that work and family began to be put in proper perspective. As more younger women are unmarried and need jobs to support themselves, I imagine the job is even more important. I really don’t think we’re designed for that kind of stress. And I’m even in a female field!

    As far as effort, I believe you should be with someone who makes the same (or close to the same) effort. This should be voluntary. People should just want to be together. It could be a sign that a woman isn’t into having a relationship, doesn’t feel as strongly about you as you would want, or she just doesn’t “get it” yet if she isn’t matching you.

    “I’m in no contact and conscious of avoiding beta backsliding.” I’m teaching a satire unit to my students and shared this with them from Seinlanguage. The point is that sadly sometimes for women the wedding ceremony is more about show than anything else:

    “Don’t get me wrong, the wedding ceremony is a beautiful thing. The vows, the costumes. I think the idea behind the tuxedo is the woman’s point of view that “Men are all the same, we might as well dress them that way.”
    That’s why, to me, a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride, and some guy. The tuxedo is a wedding safety device, created by women, because they know that men are undependable. So in case the groom chickens out, everybody just takes one step over, and she married the next guy.
    That’s why the wedding vow isn’t, “Do you take Bill Simpson?”
    It’s, “Do you take this man?””

    Find the one who cares who’s in the suit! :)

  • Matthew King

    Sweet mercy. Can’t you put your enormous analytical energies into something slightly more worthwhile and with a greater probability of paying off, like a Shakespeare play?

    Granted, it’s much harder than passively absorbing a video.

    But, brother, do you really think you will uncover the profundities of life by dissecting a plonking cinematic allegory made by a transsexual?

    There are so many greater treasures to plunder in our culture, most of them literally at your fingertips in this day and age.

    Yours is an exegesis of the funny pages which you have mistaken for scripture. This is bad, bad religion.

    I want to say “whatever works,” or “whatever gets the chump across the alpha finish line,” but this material is too flimsy to work in any lasting way. You need substance that has survived the vicissitudes and criticisms of many ages to know whether it is worth the effort of worshiping as truth.

    The Matrix was visually revolutionary — we seem to forget that since even mediocre TV shows have since incorporated its CGI inventiveness and “bullet time” camera innovations. But the pseudophilosophy that held the narrative together was awful, new age filler. Is this not evident in the sequels, when they tried to expand on their fake wisdom and created two unwatchable tributes to garbage?

    If you are going to be enthralled by superficial revelations contained in their copy of a copy of a copy, at least do yourself a favor and visit the source one time: http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/allegory.html

    Matt

  • Matthew King

    TL;DR (since that’s the audience you play down to):

  • driveallnight

    The Matrix is indeed just sci-fi schlock at the end of the day Matt, but Rollo’s message is valid and well-received by me and apparently quite a few others.

    Consider maybe saving the green tuxedo for St. Pat’s Day, sir.

  • Yep It's Me

    Hey Matt….
    You may be right. There may be a better analogy to the whole thing. I believe you can take any analogy to far (as you notice, the first part of the word is anal, but I digress). But one of the tenets of being a better MAN is to “Never just point out problems, come with solutions” — so if you have better analogy, the bring it on. I’d love to hear it and discuss it.

    Here’s the definition (at the ones that are relevant) of ANALOGY from the Merriman-Webster Dictionary (online version)…

    1. inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others
    2. a: resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike; similarity
    b: comparison based on such resemblance

    So I believe, based upon what I remember/know about the movie “The Matrix” (and beyond the very cutting edge CGI) the analogy works in that “who the world really works or is” is not what they are perceiving. The storyline, although not perfect, two or more things that “agree” therefore there are probably more. We live in a messy world, as soon as we “know” one thing, there is always someone or something that will break the rule. Once you break down everything into 7 billion individual parts, you will find that most of the ants will operate just as you expect, and small number won’t. And as it has been proven, as soon as we “observe” something, our mere presence will affect the outcome.

    What a great and glorious time we live in.

  • Robert in Arabia

    Three Great Women: Hanna Reitsch, Melitta Schenk Grafin von Stauffenberg, Hannah Duston

    Hanna Reitsch
    In 1937 Reitsch was posted to the Luftwaffe testing centre at Rechlin-L?rz Airfield by Ernst Udet. She was a test pilot on the Junkers Ju 87 Stuka and Dornier Do 17 projects. Reitsch was the first female helicopter pilot and one of the few pilots to fly the Focke-Achgelis Fa 61, the first fully controllable helicopter. Her flying skill, desire for publicity and photogenic qualities made her a star of Nazi party propaganda. Physically she was petite in stature, very slender with blonde hair, blue eyes and a “ready smile”.[3] She appeared in Nazi Party propaganda throughout the late 1930s and early 1940s. In 1938 she made nightly flights of the Fa 61 helicopter inside the “Deutschlandhalle” at the Berlin Motor Show.

    Adolf Hitler awards Hanna Reitsch the Iron Cross 2nd Class in March 1941
    At the outbreak of war in 1939 Reitsch was asked to fly many of Germany’s latest designs, among them the rocket-propelled Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet as well as several larger bombers on which she tested various mechanisms for cutting barrage balloon cables. A crash on her fifth Me 163 flight badly injured Reitsch, who reportedly insisted on writing her post-flight report before falling unconscious and spending five months in hospital. Reitsch became Adolf Hitler’s favourite pilot and was one of only two women awarded the Iron Cross during World War II

    Melitta Schenk Grafin von Stauffenberg
    Melitta Schenk Grafin von Stauffenberg, born Melitta Schiller (9 January 1903 — 8 April 1945), was a German aviatrix who served as a test pilot in the Luftwaffe before and during World War II.

    She was the second German woman to be awarded the honorary title of Flugkapit?nin (English: flight captain) and also flew over 2,500 test sorties in dive bombers, the second most of any Luftwaffe test pilot. Von Stauffenberg was awarded the Iron Cross Second Class and the Gold Front Flying Clasp for Bombers with diamonds, for performing over 1,500 test flights in dive bomber aircraft. In 1944, she was arrested with other Stauffenberg family members for suspicion of conspiring with her brothers-in-law to assassinate Adolf Hitler, but she was later released to continue her test flight duties.

    Countess von Stauffenberg died after being shot down by an allied fighter plane on 8 April 1945.

    Hannah Duston

    In March of 1697, Hannah Duston’s tiny farm was attacked by a marauding band of Abenaki Indians (alternate sources say they were Mohawks)). They attacked Hannah’s husband Thomas while he was out working in the field, but he managed to run back to the farmhouse and warn his wife of the impending raid. Unfortunately, Hannah was unable to escape – she had just given birth to a child a couple days prior, and wasn’t in any condition to be moved. Hannah, her nursemaid, and her newborn stayed behind, and she encouraged her husband to get out of there and flee with their eight other children while they still could.

    On this day she wasn’t in any position to fight off a swarming horde of warriors, and was quickly captured and forced out of her home. Her house was plundered and torched to the ground, and a subsequent raid on the village of Haverhill resulted in forty additional settlers being killed or captured by the Abenaki.

    Along with the other captives, she was forced at gunpoint to walk north towards Canada. For several days they walked through ankle-deep snow and bitter, freezing cold, traveling nearly fifty miles from Haverhill to present-day Concord, New Hampshire. Anybody who couldn’t keep up was brained in the face with a hatchet, and when Hannah’s child wouldn’t stop crying, her captors gave the kid a post-partum abortion by smacking it against a tree. By the time the party left Concord and started traveling by canoe up the Merrimack River, all that remained of the captives were Hannah, her nursemaid, and some fourteen-year old kid they’d picked up along the way.

    Hannah Duston was a tough New England broad, and she wasn’t going to let the Indians get away with it.

    The next night, while all of the warrior braves were sleeping, Hannah sought her vengeance. She somehow broke free from her restraints and slowly tiptoed her way across the campsite. Using extreme caution, she held her breath, quietly reached into the pack of one of the warriors, closed her fingers around the wooden handle of a razor-sharp tomahawk, and silently pulled it out into the night air.

    Before anybody knew what was going on, Hannah Duston was in the midst of their campfire whirling and slashing at everything she could reach. In the span of just a few seconds, she had killed ten indians with a tomahawk and sent two other warriors sprinting off into the woods screaming their heads off.

    This angry Puritan mother took out an entire raiding party by herself without even blinking.

    The two men who ran off were sure to be returning in the relatively near future. It made sense for the Puritans to not be sitting around a giant pile of corpses when they returned.

    Hannah assembled her friends, grabbed a rifle and some food from the campsite, stole a canoe and headed back towards Haverhill.

    She also went back and scalped the dead Indians before heading out.

    In the canoe, the small group of fugitives paddled desperately trying to get down river before they were caught, recaptured, and harshly executed.

    After a couple days of this nocturnal adventuring, they reached the New Hampshire town of Bradley Cove, where they convinced a local farmer to provide them with food and shelter for the night. From there, they headed out for home, walking the remaining 30+ miles to Haverhill.

    Hannah Duston really didn’t take kindly to being captured, force-marched, and having her kid brutally murdered right in front of her.

    To commemorate the adventures of this frontierswoman, in 1879 an appropriately-grim-looking statue of Mrs. Duston was erected in downtown Haverhill.

    She is believed to be the first American woman to have a public monument built in her honor.

    http://www.badassoftheweek.com/duston.html

    Sources:

    Cook, Bernard. Women and War. ABC-CLIO, 2006.

    James, Edward T., et al. Notable American Women. Harvard Univ. Press, 1971.

    The Story of Hannah Dustin

  • Keanu

    “The disbelief we have to suspend here is that the automatons of the Matrix will actually honor their end of the bargain and graciously wipe away all of his memories of being in the real world, to say nothing of actually improving Cypher’s ‘life’, such as it is, once he’s blissfully oblivious of the ‘real’. One would think that after 9 years of watching the Matrix ‘code and understanding how that system works Cypher wouldn’t have been so naive as to think that the system wouldn’t simply kill him once he’d betrayed Morpheus to it.”

    I think this is a great frame for beta male self delusion at its finest. You’d be surprised how defensive people are of their misconstructed worldviews…even with oodles of evidence that they are wrong.

  • monster221

    yes yes, but you forgot one important distinction between cyphers “matrix” and ours: in his world the real food is shit but in ours the food that comes from the red pill tastes much better and is plentiful.

    if the red pill meant more jacking off, taking orders from a quasi-bulldyke, eating mush and just a general lack of control over my life, id want to go back too.

    thank god it isnt that way in real life. life gets sweeter once you get over the disappointment.

  • Matthew King

    Yep It’s Me wrote:

    so if you have better analogy, the[n] bring it on

    Already did. Pay attention. Follow the links.

    And it’s not about the utility of the analogy — metaphor is the essence of teaching. The problem is settling for untested, passive, visual allegory rather than doing the extra work of understanding the more robust, more comprehensive works available to everyone today.

    There’s an argument for inclusiveness that leads to using least-common-denominator materials. But there’s another argument for challenging men to punch above their weight class: dress for the job you want not the job you have, fake it till you make it. In other words, present the good stuff and trust that your students will rise to the occasion, rather than spoon-feeding them the whiz-bang sci-fi escapism to which horrid philosophy often attaches itself.

    Matt

  • Yep It's Me

    @Monster221

    Good point. Red Pill does not mean you are living in a dream world (well I guess we could debate all the existential stuff, but you know what I mean) it’s more like the day that you find out there is not Santa Claus – it’s disappointing and you may “rage against it” but in my case, we still had Christmas, and in fact still kept the Santa tradition, So it’s really just and understanding of “how the world really works” – and once you (really) know it, then you can work within the operating instructions – instead of just hunting and pecking, hoping to get it right.

    Once I got over my anger (took a few months) it really is more comical than anything else – I know we can rage against the unfairness of it all, how MEN are taken advantage of, how we have to “submit” to fem-beta laws and procedures.

    One of the most wonderful things about MEN is that we are adaptable. We survive, we figure out ways to GAME the system, to take advantage where there does not seem to be any. It’s like being a sales guy and figuring out how to maximize your commission structure – it may take a while, but the good ones always do. Red Pill knowledge is like that – once we understand, we can really figure it out and make it work to our advantage.

    Personally, it really makes life look more like a GAME – one with written and unwritten rules – and one that takes a while to really understand. But once you understand it, the fun can ensue.

    And @Robert – WTF is that all about – just curious what your point was or if it was just a spam. Not trying to flame, just trying to understand.

  • Marky Mark

    @Yep It’s Me

    Love your comment… it is so true! Once you figure out how to game the system you are good though.

  • Kate

    I read The Allegory of the Cave in tenth grade world lit. My teacher also had us reading George Orwell (Animal Farm) and studying the Russian Revolution as well as reading Ayn Rand (Anthem). There is a whole other list of “great books” one should read for this unplugging/Matrix theme.

    1984- George Orwell
    Fahrenheit 451- Ray Bradbury
    Brave New World- Alex Huxley
    The Fountainhead- Ayn Rand
    Siddhartha- Hermann Hesse

  • Rollo Tomassi

    It’s OK Kate, Matt’s first response to everything is that no one is as educated or morally conscious as he is.

    The movie, Oh Brother Where Art Thou? is essentially the retelling of The Odyssey. Does it invalidate the story if it’s set in the depression era south instead of ancient Greece?

  • Blind

    So this is unrelated but worth bringing up

    There has been a post flying around the internet as of late that caught my attention. The post is about being “girlfriend” zoned. I get the feeling this was written as a bit of a joke and a shaming tool against the justified anger of men and boys who were friend zoned. Remember if you can’t disprove it you can always discredit it.
    At first I was really annoyed by this post because it flies in the face of people who were quite hurt. For a guy, being shut down when you try to make a relationship is a big deal, but women don’t see it as such and I think I have figured out why.
    They’re getting the milk for free.
    We’ve all heard about some girl being told that no guy is going to buy a cow (fat joke here) when they can get the milk for free. This was of course talking about a girl’s most valuable asset, sex. Women have come up with a whole host of reasons to have and not to have sex but it all comes back to no man is going to seriously commit to a girl if he thinks he can’t get laid. So how are we giving away the milk?
    As men, our most valuable service is our commitment to a relationship. A woman wants commitment from a man. She wants the beta provider. Don’t misunderstand me, she NEEDS the Alpha cad but she desperately WANTS the beta provider. This is why women love their beta orbiters. These men COMMIT to her and no one else (unless another girl seems to return his feelings). For a woman she is now getting everything she wants out of a relationship with no real work. She is loved, supported, respected and above all else contented. Beta guys give away their commitment for nothing and are shamed when they ask for something back. This is why they curse you over the internet, which is only one step above writing about you in his diary in terms of its likelihood of affecting you.
    When I was more beta I constantly heard the line “all you want is sex, why can’t we just be friends.” The reason for this line was I was giving it up for free. When I tried to move to a relationship the only real perceptible change was sex and suddenly all of my efforts were toward that goal. Now I’m the bad guy for only caring about one thing when she had everything she wanted.
    What betas mean when they ask for a relationship
    To girls, imagine you want to build a house with a guy. You and he begin to build and make a rock solid common foundation. Next, because he is nice he decides to build up the parts of the house you like most. He builds and entryway, a common room with a TV and couch, a single bedroom for you, a clean bathroom, ect. Once you and he are done though you decide that construction can end. The house is basically done and has everything you need. Why continue? Then he asks you to help build the parts he wants. A bit selfish of him right. He only wants a kitchen so you can make him food, he only wants a garage to build his expensive toys, and he only wants a common bedroom to have sex in. Suddenly this house isn’t about the two of you (really just you) it’s about him. But look at it from the guy’s side. He did all this to build a house for you AND him, not just you. So when he tries to build the parts he wants (friendship to relationship) and you say no he sees it as quite a bit of wasted time. He spent time, energy and money building a common foundation and everything you wanted only to be told he doesn’t get his part of the house. And when he takes the logical step to build a new house with someone else (after venting about his wasted time) you shame him for not staying in the house the two of you built.
    Understand the “girlfriend” zone doesn’t take away any parts of your house; it just means you have to build the rest.

    -Blind

    Post in question

    http://cheezburger.com/7500405504

  • Kate

    Speaking of The Allegory of the Cave, I rejoined an online woman’s group I was part of in the past. I’ve done my usual of dispensing advice, supporting those going through a tough time, etc. I made some pro-male statements yesterday that I was pretty sure would get me into trouble, and it turns out I was right. It makes me so sad that it has to be women vs. men and men vs. women instead of understanding that there are casualties on each side. There are good men and bad men. There are good women and bad women. Why is it so hard to understand sometimes good men get hurt by bad women? Women can certainly accept that there are bad men who hurt good women. Each side feels it has it worse than the other. And this is why countless marriages break down. No ability to empathize, have compassion, or perspective. No belief that the other side is often doing the best with what they know how too. I count myself lucky everyday to have come out of the cave. It was painful, but your eyes adjust to the light eventually. For me, its been nearly five years. That is a long time to wait But, the reward is a good one and will last all the rest of my years, which is far more than five.

  • Matthew King

    Matt’s first response to everything is that no one is as educated or morally conscious as he is.

    Wrong. And your insecurity is showing. I suggested there were better works for you to invest your energy into interpreting. I further cautioned that attempting to yield wisdom from a comic book movie is bound to disappoint both you and your students. Knowing that Plato is better than Keanu isn’t me flaunting my degree or talking like a fag.

    The movie, Oh Brother Where Art Thou? is essentially the retelling of The Odyssey. Does it invalidate the story if it’s set in the depression era south instead of ancient Greece?

    If the Coen Brothers’ very loose interpretation is one’s only access to Homer, then yes, the story is invalidated. The reasons why The Odyssey is still going strong after 3000 years are not expressible in (the great) O Brother. Something must be lost in a different medium expressed by inferior artists.

    Maybe the Coens will some day be considered the equal of Homer, but those considerations are determined by the art’s resiliency under centuries of criticism and challenge. It’s safe to say the Coens aren’t there yet. (It is also safe to say that, of the two sets of brothers, the Wachowski freakshow is not even in the same conversation as Joel and Ethan.)

    Matt

  • Matthew King

    Kate testified:

    I count myself lucky everyday to have come out of the cave. It was painful, but your eyes adjust to the light eventually. For me, its been nearly five years. That is a long time to wait But, the reward is a good one and will last all the rest of my years, which is far more than five.

    Amen.

    — — — — —

    [Socrates]: And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him? …

    He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day? …

    And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the cave and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?

    [Glaucon] Certainly, he would. … I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner. …

    [Socrates] [Y]ou must not wonder that those who attain to [the] beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural. …

    And now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced…? …

    [Glaucon] By all means …

    — — — — —

    Welcome Guardian Kate. You can never go back. Enjoy the pain.

    Matt

  • Case

    Kate 2:25 pm writes:

    “Rollo: ‘The real danger inherent in Game and Red Pill awareness is a man using it to fulfill his former blue pill idealisms – that does require a constant effort.’
    “I remember writing in the fall about a purple pill: using red pill knowledge to make blue pill dreams come true. Why do you consider that dangerous and a constant effort?”

    I also would appreciate some discussion of this – particularly in that by actual example Rollo’s married and had a family and been largely monogamous. I often wrestle trying to decipher what he seems to be promoting, as understood through the prism of his own example.

    @Yep It’s Me, re: 5:03 pm, the Imam/Riddick quip – brilliant. That alone made today worth it to get out of bed and do.

    @Ton, re: 7:40 pm, “Happiness comes from a 700 pound deadlift and trophy bucks on the walls.”

    …Truth.

    @Kate, 10:34 am, re: your book list.

    All the rest great, but about Rand … sadly due to the unbelievable decade-on-decade grassroots success of the Ayn Rand Institute’s high school essay contest it is clear that it will be among my life’s work to labor to put out the forest fire of the collective intellect that her work has become. You, as I, obviously have read enough Rand. Ayn Rand is to capitalism what the editorial CARTOON of the editorial page of the NYT is to Marx and Das Kapital. Please consider reading Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations – Oxford puts out a good abridged copy. Then every time your mind tries to make a reference to Rand, run a corrective program that over-rides the habit re-routes to Smith. Recommend Smith to others, especially and foremost, admirers of Rand. If you really understand Smith, Rand is a (bad) joke, and soon enough may prove to be a grossly costly one.

    @Matthew King, 1:29 pm, re: “Sweet mercy. Can’t you put your enormous analytical energies into…”

    Matt – your words here are to me like long fingernails pressed hard on a chalkboard. LFPd (literally facepalmed).

    Matt – I want to reach out to you rather than argue with you. I think you would agree with the statement that the Catholic Church was whole in the 12 centuries prior to the Summa. And yet, somehow, the Summa was essential. The church had fallen out of date. I think today, too, it is out of date.

    Aquinas achieved the monumental accomplishment of writing the Summa, above all, by listening. Lay aside all you know, and understand that you are acting in the highest spirit of the Summa and of Thomas Aquinas if, for a while, you would just listen.

    I will make this one note too. Unless someone else is using your moniker, I observe you sustain conversations publicly, online, at Heartiste, with people who everyone everywhere else in the entire civilized world correctly recognizes as national socialists. I question whether this indulgence may be understood as “alpha”. I am prepared to bet a finite sum Heartiste himself looks upon it and laughs at his commenters, not with them. I believe I am on quite firm ground to say that Ecclesia Militans reckons it to be scandal – “a word or action, evil in itself, which occasions another’s (usually a spiritually weaker’s) spiritual ruin”.
    Your most powerful moral message are your actions, including your silence.

  • Martel

    @ Matt: You’ve made some pretty important insights at times, and I seriously mean that.

    HOWEVER, the tone with which you deliver those insights virtually ensures that nobody will consider them. You consistently exude utter condescension with almost every comment you write, and it makes people NOT want to agree with you. Reading your comments feels like being lectured by a hybrid of the worst aspects of F. Lee Bailey, Rick Santorum, and Al Gore. Nobody wants to hear it.

    I understand that there are some things that are extremely important to get across, and when you’re facing an actual ENEMY, the type of tone at which you excel is both effective and appropriate.

    Nevertheless, although we disagree with you on some points (and will continue to do so), we’re basically allies here against the downward spiral of American culture. If you disagree without implying that anyone who disagrees with you on some minor point is a complete and utter moron, they might be more responsive.

    You’re obviously exceptionally knowledgeable, and this is a good thing. Yes, Plato’s cave story demonstrates what’s going on better than the Matrix. However, if you refer to the cave story, most people will have no clue what you’re talking about, one quick sentence about the Red Pill in the Matrix, and they do. In more advanced forums, there’s a case to be made that we should switch to Plato instead, but considering that the Matrix is a knockoff of the same idea, it’s NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.

    (And yes, I’m fully cognizant of the importance of taking back the language from the left. This isn’t the way to do it.)

    I repeat, sometimes an obnoxious tone is what’s called for. Jeremiah wasn’t exactly known for his tact. But your’re NOT Jeremiah, and I doubt Jeremiah would exude the same type of condescension as you with those who were in basic agreement with him.

    You’re a serious person with serious things to say, but you make yourself come across as a joke. One example is when you basically said that nobody can provide any worthwhile insights on happiness unless they’ve read Aristotle’s take on it. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Aristotle (I just started Rhetoric and it’s blowing my mind), but when you present Aristotle’s views that way, you simply turn people off to him the same way some snooty high school English teacher can turn kids off to Shakespeare.

    Another example was your obnoxious tirade on the value of Humility over at (I think) Stingray’s blog. When I read it, I laughed so hard my stomach hurt because it was one of the strangest mixes of quality content delivered in such a way as to undercut that content I had ever seen. It was like reading “These ridiculous peons in the Manosphere will never understand the essential value of Humility nearly as well as one so illustrious as Myself.”

    So tone it down a bit, and you might find that you convince a male member of the manosphere of something at some point (and when it comes to language, morality, and some other issues you have some ideas that need some spreading). Or, write the same way you do now and continue to be looked at as a a clown.

    Your choice, obviously

  • eon

    @ Case

    You have obviously studied Rand to the fullest extent of your ability, so I will now help you to double your knowledge, by instructing you to meditate upon the third word in the title of her book “Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal”.

    And congratulations on getting through the first two words!

  • AngelOfFire

    That you have to write this post now Rollo.
    It’s time that people see that game is a society thing. You can only play the game on societies’ terms. You cannot win. Only when you are BORN alpha you can win. The other guys don’t stand a chance.
    I’m a gamma male and last week I decided to stop playing. Stop handing my balls over on a silver plate. It’s liberating, it sets you free. The work you have to do for one notch is too much. You don’t have to do any work. Just relax, live your life and sit on your ass.
    For saying it in Matrix-analogies: pushing the red-pill though my throat was hard but surviving in the “dessert of the real” is much harder.

  • Links and Comments #11 | The Society of Phineas

    […] The blue-pill is an artificial joy. […]

  • Kate

    Thank you, King. It pains me greatly to see these exchanges. Please do try to do the building up with less tearing down. If for no other reason, then for my poor heart.

  • Kate

    Thank you for the suggestion, Case. Still have a thing for Howard Roark though ;)

  • gregg

    @Matt

    Socrates and Plato´s views on world are far above this discussion so there is no use to put them here. According to those teachings – this WORLD as the mere projection of your SOUL including your body, emotions, ego, etc. IS MATRIX. Women are just a part of it, insignificant part and projection of your desire.

    This blog is about women and society AS THE MATRIX. See the difference? It is structured and usefull for common people not for the tiny minority of awakened. And still there is a good portion of valuable wisdom which can be used in an ordinary life by ordinary men. Do you feel the need to put others down to feel good about yourself or fucking what? I honestly see neither humanity/humility NOR wisdom in your “FROM ABOVE” lectures.

  • Matthew King

    Talk about “artificial joy.” Nobody likes to be criticized for his deficiencies. The tendency of the criticized is to focus on the critic himself rather than the content of the criticism. So you imagine that all I need to do is adopt a niceguy disposition and the content will stand on its own.

    Case in point above. I (sharply) suggested you not depend on sci-fi potboilers for your intellectual salvation but rather devote your prodigious energies to something with a greater chance of paying off. Humiliation is half the message. You feel no shame finding comfort in false idolatry, in children’s literature. It is a form of intellectual escapism, because creating a sturdy philosophical foundation is hard, frustrating, often tedious work. Not as much fun as watching Keanu in sunglasses recite fortune cookies.

    “Most people will have no clue what you’re talking about, one quick sentence about the Red Pill in the Matrix, and they do.” What if The Matrix has no clue what it’s talking about? Then where does your shortcut take you? There is no substitute for serious thinking. There is no magic “pill.”

    “In more advanced forums, there’s a case to be made that we should switch to Plato.” Not at all. This is the difference between practical thinking men and intellectual poseurs. Rollo doesn’t have to conduct a graduate seminar on The Republic, nor would I suggest such a flatulent exchange. But if he is going to presume to lay the deep foundations of this community project, it is his job to know the very best expressions of the ideas he is peddling, and then, like any good teacher, present them in a form his students can grasp. He flatters your low comprehension abilities by lowering his inquiry to your level, thereby retarding the general progress.

    There is no “building up with less tearing down.” You can’t build towers without clearing the tenements first.

    But you don’t want to hear that you are in the slums. You don’t want to hear that you are not good enough to make it. You want me to call you curvy and big boned with a placating warm smile on my face.

    I understand my message isn’t for everyone. Most men today are wilting hothouse flowers who shrivel up at a chill wind. How are Martel or Case or Rollo the exceptions? They write and act as though they are owed the world’s automatic esteem, all special boys who can be presidents and astronauts, and their mommy loves them so.

    Finally, comparing this website to the Summa is beyond strange. It is outright dangerous. It’s like depending on an ad man to write the Operator’s Manual to a nuclear power plant. Real souls are in the balance here, men’s lives. You can’t dash off instructions to them on a whim or a vague notion; you owe them your work and study, you owe them support for and testing of your wisdom through “the best that has been thought and said,” rather than the mere fabrication of pseudoprofundities.

    I am not humble? Har har har? You are correct, I do not bow and scrape before this kind of uninspired material, nor do I humbly accept your transparent feelgoodism as criticism. Rather, I describe it for what it is. But I do in fact learn at the feet of great teachers like Plato and St. Thomas. I do in fact seek wisdom wherever I can find it, and often it comes from humble men of experience like Rollo. But when they lose that humility — when they begin haphazardly punching above their weight class — they lose their power, and yes, I will call out hubris where I find it.

    I am in the tragedy prevention business, and I won’t apologize for tackling someone to the ground — out of the path of a bus. Neither will I adopt an air of apology around my writing style in general. That’s good for nothing. If it’s too harsh for you, if you think it’s nothing but “a joke,” then you have removed yourself from the kind of men I want to reach anyway. When you’re ready to graduate to the grown-ups’ table, seek me out again. I can’t promise availability, though. This preponderance of weeny whining is only tolerable for so long. There is real work to do. I can only take so much from men who refuse to grab a shovel because they’re not being coddled and flattered.

    Matt

  • Kate

    “There is no “building up with less tearing down.” You can’t build towers without clearing the tenements first.
    But you don’t want to hear that you are in the slums. You don’t want to hear that you are not good enough to make it. You want me to call you curvy and big boned with a placating warm smile on my face.”

    Did you just fucking call me fat? People are already torn down. In many cases, you are dealing with people in ruins. Until *you* realize they don’t need you to make it worse, you will be doomed to remain unable to help them, which I know is your ultimate intention. Never have I seen someone so capable so powerless. Stop. And examine.

  • gregg

    If I have to find the antithesis of wisdom and experience in one sentence, it would be this:

    “When you’re ready to graduate to the grown-ups’ table, seek ME out again. I can’t promise availability, though.”

    Matt, you have to be very amusing and interesting person…like the rest of us ;)

  • Matthew King

    Did you just fucking call me fat? People are already torn down. In many cases, you are dealing with people in ruins. Until *you* realize they don’t need you to make it worse, you will be doomed to remain unable to help them, which I know is your ultimate intention. Never have I seen someone so capable so powerless. Stop. And examine.

    Whoa, lady. I didn’t call you fat, so put down the rolling pin. Incidentally, I don’t think you literally live in the slums either.

    I didn’t include you in the group I was criticizing at all. In fact, I called you a “guardian.” You read yourself into their woes, and then proceeded to literalize a metaphor, just to feel the high dudgeon.

    Yes, I am dealing with people in the ruins. I am here to condemn and clear out the ruins. But you want to blame the bulldozer for squashing the defiant squatter. I am telling those squatters to stop clinging to their precious ruins, to seek better and sturdier places, or get plowed with rubbish.

    This is all very painful. But I have nothing but contempt for apologists of the Rachel Corrie strategy.

    Matt

  • anonymous

    “…the tone with which you deliver those insights virtually ensures that nobody will consider them. You consistently exude utter condescension with almost every comment you write, and it makes people NOT want to agree with you.”

    “Do you feel the need to put others down to feel good about yourself or fucking what?”

    Oh wahh waahh waaaahhhhhh! Somebody call the waaaaaaammmbulance!!!!

    What a joke. This entire pathetic critique says a lot more about you than it does about Matt.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but whatever it is you are, you are not men. GROW UP.

  • Bel Riose

    Hey Kate,

    Yes, Matt did call you fat.

    And no, he did not apologize for doing so.

    I’m proud of you for standing up for yourself. Your perception of Matt is exactly right. Except, perhaps, when you describe him as “capable.” He’s a nuisance at worst, and an amusement at best. Take him for what he is.

    Whenever his bombast becomes too much to take, just remember that he believes in a supernatural, invisible being who created the earth and heavens. That will put him in perspective.

    He is a superstitious freak, no different from a jungle savage worshipping the gods of the forest, stream and swamp. Evaluate him accordingly.

  • Kate

    I feel I know him best of anyone here and I have learned several valuable lessons from him. I’m just going to have to stop reading because this is what men do, apparently, and its just too distressing. As a woman its just too much conflict. Knock yourselves out.

  • Bel Riose

    “I feel I know him best of anyone here and I have learned several valuable lessons from him.”

    You just learned another valuable lesson from Matt: a lesson in arrogance and smugness. For all his posturing, for all his assumed moral superiority, a simple “I’m sorry — I didn’t intend to insult you” is completely beyond him.

    I am sorry to hear that you are considering leaving this site. You are one of the very few female commenters I enjoy hearing from. Please don’t let our Mad Jesuit bully or intimidate you into leaving.

  • bob

    “Hey Kate,

    Yes, Matt did call you fat.

    And no, he did not apologize for doing so.

    I’m proud of you for standing up for yourself. Your perception of Matt is exactly right. Except, perhaps, when you describe him as “capable.” He’s a nuisance at worst, and an amusement at best. Take him for what he is.

    Whenever his bombast becomes too much to take, just remember that he believes in a supernatural, invisible being who created the earth and heavens. That will put him in perspective.

    He is a superstitious freak, no different from a jungle savage worshipping the gods of the forest, stream and swamp. Evaluate him accordingly.”

    And here comes the snake.

  • Balzac

    It’s hard to be a prophet in the comment section.

  • Underdog

    In other words, hopelessness only comes from helplessness.

    I love this blog. This is the only manosphere blog now where I continuously gain fresh insights whether they be from Rollo or the commenters.

  • Matthew King

    It’s hard to be a prophet in the comment section.

    Ha!

  • jase

    So Matt, how about you stop telling Rolo or others how they should write and do it yourself? Start a blog, write a book, and do-it-yourself.
    When I was a pro musician I’d run into amateurs and wanna-be’s who would tell me everything I should be doing, how I should play something, what kind of stuff I should be writing, etc, it was always amusing… and my answer was always the same “if that’s what you want to hear, write and play it yourself”
    So write the blog post you think we should all be reading, write the book that we should all be buying, then come here and share it with us.

  • Yep It's Me

    I just love blogs and passionate readers – and reading comments. It reminds me of rafting down the Colorado River – there are long stretches where things just flow, literally you are floating – then there short bursts of real rapids, where you have to be conscience and paddle like hell.

    What Rollo started (in this blog post) was like the river master shoving us off the banks of the river and waving goodbye – the rest of the journey is ours.

    @Kate — yes you are right, men debate, men argue, men stand tall with an opinion, in many cases, men are not looking to agree or even to sway people to their point of view (well except politicians). Men are not natural seekers of consensus.

    @Matt — Thanks for your insights. I can be uncultured, uneducated, uninspired, whatever – but I’d rather use pop-culture references – but I appreciated the your point of view – I just don’t necessarily agree with it.

    @Rollo — thanks for giving us a good push off the banks to get us going (and thinking). Because your original thoughts on “can you ever go back and would you want to” is valid.

  • Yep It's Me

    “It’s hard to be a prophet in the comment section”

    @Balzac — Love this.

  • Rob T

    I personally love reading all of this. I’ve been with 70+ women. Had probably 300+ dates. I look back and realize that I have both alpha and beta tendancies. I think of 2 very attractive women I dated. One I fell for. One I didn’t. I was mostly Alpha w the one I didn’t fall for. What happened? I had access to her a year later. I was mostly Beta with the one I fell for. She never returned. There is validity in a lot of these articles to me. However, if you just act like a hard ass all the time, it’s going to be hard to attract anyone. And hear is the real fly in the ointment. There comes a time when you do fall in love as a man. It’s inevitable. The girl is squirting on you, fulfilling fantasies, etc. You go out and have fun. She’s into it and so are you. Good luck running game at that point. Or acting all Alpha. Emotions take over. Here’s the other fly in the ointment. When you are able to run game it’s usually because you aren’t into the girl that much. What fun is that? But overall I think most of this stuff is great and that’s why I read it.

  • Emma the Emo

    “My problem with Kay’s comments was his implicit assumption that most of what’s good in life is actually Blue Pill. Happiness derived from delusion is still delusion, and it will come crashing down on you just the same.”

    I don’t think this is always, or even mostly, true. From my point of view, people who believe in the afterlife are likely deluded, but they are pretty happy and never does anything seem to come crashing down for them. Other people believe in angels, healers, astrology, and other shit, and it always “works” for them. Not to mention, some people have an unwarranted amount of self-esteem, which makes sure they never feel shame. Some people have an unwarranted amount of optimism, which makes sure they never fret. Some delusions are incredibly useful, and I say that, even though I’m very into truth. It can potentially lead you into trouble, but for a lot of people, benefits outweigh the costs.

  • Lion

    When I start talking about the inevitability of a collapse of society due to population growth, sustainability issues, and currency/economy issues, people don’t want to even consider it or hear about it. I think I’d be happier living in ignorance on that topic. However, I prefer knowing about women. At least I have some control over that issue.

  • Lion

    I saw a really hot young woman this morning. My first thought was, “Wow, foxy.” My second thought was, “She’ll be some guy’s nightmare someday.”

  • Matthew King

    I can be uncultured, uneducated, uninspired, whatever – but I’d rather use pop-culture references…

    I use pop references all the time. The problem isn’t using them as a quick and dirty metaphor. The problem is depending on them to frame a philosophy, especially when using it for an extended pedagogical allegory. That stretches the balloon well past its elasticity.

    Red pill-taking, or voluntarily awakening from a comforting hallucination, is a useful metaphor. But then to call yourself “red-pill” this and “unplugged” that brings on sloppy analysis, which leads to accepting schlock like the following as profound:

    No Neo, what I’m trying to tell you is that when you’re ready, you wont have to [dodge bullets].

    That’s some tranny screenwriter writing a line of dialogue, imagining what a wise person might say. There is zero wisdom in that utterance, and to think there must be is a misplaced faith in the power of a film. Extending the Matrix metaphor allows naïve people to accept bad sophistry as useful in their lives.

    And why don’t I

    stop telling Rolo [sic] or others how they should write and do it [myself]?

    Why don’t I “start a blog, write a book, and do-it-[myself]“?

    Because I am not here to preach or enlighten. I am here to find the already prepared. To rally a few good men, the happy few, the band of brothers, and to leave the rest to

    … your uncertainty!
    Let every feeble rumor shake your hearts!
    Your enemies, with nodding of their plumes,
    Fan you into despair! …
    There is a world elsewhere.

    That’s the only way out of this morass. Trying to convert one omega at a time through prose and sci-fi metaphor is a prescription for tedium and frustration and failure. The best hope is to rally the initiated, who only need camaraderie for support, rather than constant tutelage.

    Men have to be reminded they are men more than they need to be constructed into men through elaborate new methodologies. They don’t need an updated glossary or seminar or movie metaphor. They need to be challenged to mine the material which has always been there.

    But, as this thread demonstrates, simple reminders are regarded as hostile, and I simply have bigger fish to fry than to repetitively instruct men to stop crying and start doing, especially since the reminding itself brings on more crying — and in Kate’s case, the “lamentations of the women” (cf. Conan the Barbarian).

    If we’re going to do a movie, can’t it be one with Schwarzenegger in it and produced by John Milius, rather than Keanu and the magical negroes, written by a he-she?

    Matt

  • shinzaemon

    Since the discussion is on MMSL, I have to say I am disappointed with the forum he started. I was trying to peruse it for good advice and it seems over half his readers are now women.

    I am not trying to break his rice bowl. Those ladies don’t belong there and he hasn’t put his foot down. I am not impressed.

    No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Glover has everything you need to up the Alpha and ditch the AFC.

  • anonymous

    “Because I am not here to preach or enlighten. I am here to find the already prepared. To rally a few good men, the happy few, the band of brothers, and to leave the rest to…”

    If you’re serious about that, you should have a chat with commenter ‘Porter’ over at Mangan’s blog. So alike the two of you appear to be in terms of education, philosophy, command of the language, breadth/depth of knowledge and general sense of repartee that I’ve occasionally wondered if you’re the same person, employing a slightly different tone. A meeting of the minds would surely produce an interesting exchange of ideas, if nothing else.

  • Yep It's Me

    @shinzaemon

    +1

    Women will never get it and their “help” is not very helpful. But the MMLS forum is full of fem-attention-seeking-men – that love to engage all those “red pill” women and “first mates” to get their opinion on one thing or another. I posted there for about a month, until I figured out what was going on – still read the blog, but don’t engage on the forum or comments.

    I was very active on the NMMNG forum for about 6 months – not so much over the past 3. There is lots of pain over there and lots of new guys showing up everyday with the same basic story “I was married for XX years and I just found my wife has been cheating on me…what should I do?”. But all in all, it’s a great forum – because it’s not there to give you a big hug, it’s there to kick you in the ass and get you going in the right direction.

    Just like most of what’s out there – women will never get how “Men help Men” versus how “women help women”.

  • Matthew King

    I am not “Porter,” and I’ve never been to Mangan’s blog because it sounds wayyy too much like “mangina.” Wouldn’t risk my street cred.

  • necorochi

    Ok so I tried using Plenty of Fish to help with my text game, any advice? Where did I go wrong, was I to much of a Douche,

    Rollo please help me.

    So here goes;

    Me: I don’t think we should get to know each other.

    Her: Then why did you message me?

    Me:We just wouldn’t get along, you wouldn’t take my shit, I wouldn’t take yours, etc.

    Her:Okay?

    Me: It’s because were to much alike, who do you think cheats more in relationships girls or guys?

    Her: Both cheat. Not one cheats more than the other.

    Me: Oh my God, girls cheat way more. I read this article on yahoo news yesterday morning at 6:00 and this guy was raising his kid for 2 years, come to find out, it wasn’t HIS.

    Her: And? Do you know how many single moms are out there raising kids on their own? Millions. My mom is one of them.

    Me: Fair, but do you know how many guys are stuck paying child support because their partner sabotaged their condom?

    Me: Case closed.

    Her: There are a lot of those too! Never said there wasn’t. Jesus Christ! Do you get on here just to piss people the fuck off? Honestly!

    Her: I would understand if I messaged you first, but I didn’t! You provoked a damn argument on purpose. No wonder you’re on this site. You can’t find a girl because you’re an inconsiderate prick. I’m on here because I’m bored and in my free time its fun.

    Me: Ha Ha Ha OK, so tell me, what are three things that make you unique?

    Her: ..Why do you ask?

    Me: Well I was curious about you but now I’m just annoyed.

    Her: Your first impression that you gave me was terrible. Why would I want to tell you anything about me, huh? Go read my profile again if you want to know anything, jerk. Bye.

    Brutal Truth me.

  • Glenbert

    Athol was my introduction to all of this, but I didn’t get that post. I get his thesis about cultivating a mixture of alpha and beta traits. But he also seemed to say that working on the beta side was only really safe once you went red pill. Frankly, I’m happier working toward being red pill. Doing anything blue pill, beta or alpha (yeah, I’d say I know a couple of blue pill alphas, i.e. naturals) strikes me as as inviting tragedy.

  • Glenbert

    @Matthew

    We all come from divergent backgrounds here. I don’t give a fuck about Plato and my six fig salary tells me that I don’t have to. But I’ve seen the Matrix.

    The Matrix is our Esperanto.

    I normally like your comments but, chill.

  • anon

    “Begs a lot of questions” surely you mean “raises a lot of questions”

  • Matthew King

    I don’t give a fuck about Plato and my six fig salary tells me that I don’t have to.

    Oh please. Keep the jock/nerd bravado in high school.

    I didn’t say you should know Plato. I said Rollo should, if he is going to expend so much energy in an attempt at deep explanation/translation to students exactly like you. Matrix is fine for your limited purposes, but a disaster for his more expansive mission.

    Matt

  • shinzaemon

    @ Yep It’s Me
    I like his forum because its men speaking to men. I only wish their were more members and posted more often at NMMNG forums. Those guys don’t act pansies.

    There was a hilarious post were a bitchy wife found out he was a member and wanted to ” set the record straight”.

    Hilarity ensued.

    The guys told her this was a men’s board for men and moved her post somewhere else.

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