The Mystery of the Red Dress

Today’s quote is from the Biography of Steve Jobs. I did read the book in its entirety in 2010, but recently had this bit sent to me from a reader as an example of ‘How an Alpha should treat a Gold-digger‘. Mmm? No.

As an example of “alpha behavior” or an illustration of equal justice I can see why this incident might be construed as such, but there’s a much more valuable lesson to be learned in this exchange. The incident took place between Steve Jobs and singer Joan Baez, a woman who Jobs eventually had a relationship with.

In 1982, Jobs was introduced to Joan Baez by her sister Mimi Farina. He was 27 and she was 41. “It turned into a serious relationship between two accidental friends who became lovers,” said Jobs. Some of his friends believed that one thing that drew Jobs to Baez was the fact that she used to date Bob Dylan. “Steve loved that connection to Dylan,” said Jobs’ college friend Elizabeth Holmes.” The relationship fizzled out when it became clear that Jobs wanted children and Baez did not. 

Rolling Stone, 2011

Using a Red Pill Lens on this situation, we see a few apparent truths. The age difference was definitely a factor, but Jobs was well-known for what was called his “Reality Distortion Bubble“. In effect Steve Jobs had an intrinsic understanding of himself as his Mental Point of Origin. A lot of Type-A personalities have this in common – they innately make themselves the first thought they have in virtually all decisions they make. For some this can border on sociopathy, but most people we consider successes or geniuses had this sense of self as their starting point. Let me make this clear, you don’t have to be a sociopath or a solipsist to make yourself your Mental Point of Origin, but that is where these states begin.

Practically every very wealthy man I’ve ever worked for, or with, had himself in mind before a thought was give to anyone else’s consideration in his decision making process; family, spouse, employees, friends, we’re subordinate to his Mental Point of Origin. For most the process would start and end with themselves and their interests. These were the sociopaths. For a few that process started with themselves and ended with the consideration of others, but the process was a pragmatic one that facilitated a maintaining of power balance. As I’ve said in the past, I’m a proponent of enlightened self interest: I cannot help others until I help myself. Nor can I help others as effectively as when I help myself first. It’s not that you ought to become a selfish prick – you should think of the interests of others – but only after you’ve considered yourself in the scope of your own interests and how your interests facilitate the interests of others.

Now that this is settled, let me say that by this metric, Steve Jobs was none of this. According to the people he worked with, his family and friends, Jobs had all the characteristics of a solipsist. Yes, men can be solipsists too, though it’s more of a learned process rather than the innate proclivity women have to be solipsistic. From a business perspective, from a single-minded determination perspective, Jobs was certainly an Alpha. His mindset was that of an Alpha. His relationship history, however, was grossly influenced by Blue Pill idealism. One commonality you’ll find among men we consider great innovators, inventors, discoverers and entrepreneurial geniuses is they are almost invariably Blue Pill idealists with respect to their romantic lives. Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are two current examples of this commonality. Argue their greatness if you like, their personal lives are classic examples of what happens to the Nerd, the autist, the high IQ guy, who’s afforded the money and success to live out their Blue Pill fueled impression of what a relationship with a woman should be like. And predatory women, with the savvy to understand (and have the patience for) the nature of Beta men, make these guys their bread and butter.

“There’s a beautiful red dress there that would be perfect for you.”

I’m not sure I would describe Jobs as an autist, or being on the Asperger’s spectrum, but he was certainly on the sociopath spectrum. Try not to conflate ‘sociopath’ with something negative in this instance. Sociopathic behaviors and character attributes can equally be attractive survival traits as they are evidence of megalomaniacal tyranny. Sociopathy is really by order of degree. Jobs most certainly began and ended his thinking with himself in mind.

My Red Pill Lens read on this is as follows: Something in Steve Job’s subconscious was testing Joan Baez for genuine desire.

I’m fairly certain most of my readers will understand the ovulatory shift implications of a red dress being the item in mention here, but there is a method to Job’s madness in this.

“I said to myself, far out, I’m with one of the world’s richest men and he wants me to have this beautiful dress.”

Joan doesn’t get it from the start here. She presumes that a rich man would want to purchase her affections via the transaction of a gift. Not uncommon for even 41 year old women, and yes, her thinking here is exactly the solipsistic mental point of origin women have a natural default for. Indignant guys will call her a Gold Digger, which is accurate, but moreover you have to look at the process here. She presumes that rich men buy expensive gifts for the women they’re interested in. But in typical Jobs fashion Steve flips the script without knowing that’s what he’s doing.

When they get to the store Steve points out the dress and says, “You oughta buy it.” She looked a little surprised, said she couldn’t really afford it, he said nothing and they left.

“Wouldn’t you think if someone (a rich man) had talked like that the whole evening they were going to buy it for you?”

It would be easy to dismiss this part as default female entitlement, but remember this was 1982, and while women (particularly attractive and famous women) did expect things from well-to-do men, the entitlement levels weren’t anything like they are now. I think she was genuinely confused. She really didn’t get it.

“The mystery of the Red Dress is in your hands. I felt a bit strange about it.”

He would giver her computers, but not a dress, and when he brought her flowers he would be sure to say they were leftover from an event in the office.

“He was both romantic, and afraid to be romantic.”

This end part is Baez’s last attempt to explain why an ‘eccentric‘ rich man wouldn’t buy her a dress he thought she’d look good in. I’m often asked how to go about vetting a woman for a long term relationship, and I’ve written essays about how most men simply never actually have the luxury of holding (much less developing) standards by which to ‘vet‘ a woman’s commitment-worthiness. Most men are not rich men, most men are Betas. Fewer still have the sense of self-value, or the access to so many optional women, as to presume to test a woman’s interest in him in any meaningful sense. Steve Jobs was not a necessitous man, he had, or could easily realize options when he wanted to. But even though he was idealistic in a Blue Pill conditioned sense, his subconscious wanted something it couldn’t buy – genuine desire from Joan Baez.

It’s easy to dismiss the Red Dress Incident as just another quirky personality flaw of a borderline sociopath who didn’t have the Game or the social intelligence to know he was offending or turning off a girl he kind of liked. Indeed, Joan tries to insert her own pop-culture psychoanalysis of Steve in the end; He was afraid to be the romantic she just knew he wanted to be. I expect this kind of rationalization from women who miss out on a once-in-a-lifetime chance to optimize Hypergamy. But what if Steve wasn’t afraid? What if it was a form of his shit testing Joan to determine her genuine desire for him?

As I said, most men don’t have the luxury to shit test women at all. For low SMV men, which is to say most men, the thought of experimenting with testing a woman for desire, much less long term suitability is never a consideration. Most guys can’t believe their luck that a woman actually expressed interest in him because they’ve lacked romantic options for most of their lives. So to consciously experiment with determining honest signals from a woman seems like tempting fate. The Thirst is such that most men would do damn near anything not to screw things up with a girl who’s showing interest in him. Just be thankful your ship’s finally come in, right?

I’ll add again here that most women, particularly in this social media era, are well aware that most men will never vet them for anything beyond baseline arousal and sexual availability. Thirst serves the Feminine Imperative very well, but what about men who are Blue Pill idealists, that can actually afford the options? Men for whom money and access are no object, but still persist in the fairytale the Blue Pill told them was possible?

What I see happening here is Jobs’ request for Baez to buy the dress for herself was a test of her genuine desire for him. Steve could’ve easily bought her the dress, even the whole store, but that wasn’t the point. What Steve wanted was for her to want to please him. His expressing a like for the dress was his subconscious testing her desire to please him.

I think you’d look good in this; It’s perfect for you” isn’t an offer, it’s a request. Will you sacrifice something to please me? 41 year old Joan Baez, could’ve afforded the dress. Hell, Ralph Lauren would have probably given it to her. But she expected Steve to buy it for her; that was her expectation then and it was the source of her confusion right up to Jobs’ biography interview. Her affinity for Jobs was transactional, not based in genuine desire. She failed the test.

Whether subconsciously or by design Steve wanted what most well-conditioned Blue Pill men want today: a genuine connection with a woman based on genuine (preferably unmitigated) desire. The Desire Dynamic is synonymous with The Rational Male. You cannot negotiate genuine desire is a foundational principle of both my work and all Red Pill awareness that follows from it. Steve’s ego wouldn’t allow him to negotiate for Joan’s real desire. His Mental Point of Origin and marginally sociopathic nature wouldn’t conceive it. But consciously or unconsciously he would test her (and other women he was involved with) for her desire to please him.

What is Your Red Dress?

It’s a cliché now for wealthy men to test women’s true interest in them. “Does she love me for me or because of my money/fame/status?” is a Blue Pill fantasy script for Beta men. This has been the plot of many popular stories and movies for centuries now (Coming to America with Eddie Murphy), but it’s a cliché because it accurately describes men’s subconscious coming to terms with women’s mating strategies and opportunistic concept of love. Women don’t fall in love with who a man is, they fall in love with what that man is. If a woman ever falls in love with who a man is it’s only after loving him for what he is first.

That’s some real cognitive dissonance a man has to confront in his life. The indignation that dissonance produces is very much the Red Meat most low SMV men love to wallow in, and commiserate in.

“She doesn’t love me! She loves what I can afford her! She’s a Gold Digger, I knew it!”

We love having women’s duplicity confirmed for us as men. It means we dodged a bullet by not investing in, and wasting our reproductive potential with, a woman who would be a bad bet for our future paternity. It provides the same chemical exhilaration and relief women feel when they think they’ve figured out a man’s “true” nature (Alpha Cad/Beta Dad). In the same way women get off on the indignation of discovering of men’s attempts to deceive women’s existential fear of false signals, so to do low SMV men get off on the indignation of discovering a woman only wants him for his money – not the real him.

What our subconscious truly wants is a pairing with a woman who has a genuine desire for us. Hot, unmitigated, Darwinistic monkey-sex is usually the manifestation of that genuine desire, but there are many more nuanced ways our male psyches will try to determine it. In past essays I’ve had men and women run me up the flagpole for suggesting a man never buy lingerie for his girlfriend or wife.

“How’s she supposed to know what I like if I don’t buy it for her?”
“I love getting something sexy from my man, sucks to be you.”

These, and more like them, are usually efforts in remaining self-ignorant of never having experienced genuine desire from a woman. If a woman has genuine desire for you she will be interested enough in you, and have the desire enough, to know how to please you without you explaining it to her. Genuine, organic desire is the foundation of all healthy relationships between men and women. Women who have genuine, unobligated desire for a man don’t ask him if they can go to Vegas for a girl’s weekend – her desire is for her man. Plates don’t require an active ‘spinning‘ on your part when she has real desire to be part of that man’s life. Women will eagerly share a worthy Alpha (rather than be saddled to a faithful Beta) if she has genuine desire for him.

and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.

Genesis 3:16

When a woman has genuine desire for a man she Just Gets It when he suggests that a Red Dress would be “perfect for her” and she buys it, borrows it or steals it to wear it for him.

If Steve Jobs had purchased the Red Dress for Joan Baez, every time she wore it she would be wearing it for her, not for him. Something inside Steve knew this, and something in you does too.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

243 comments on “The Mystery of the Red Dress

  1. @KFG

    Sorry, I forgot the plot and theme in the 40 years since I read Bartelby the Scrivener. My bad.

    <blockquote<"Bartleby is a grim bastard. In his defiance, apparently unconcerned with impressing his fancy boss, he’s every high-achiever’s worst nightmare."


    No, I believe it is every bit fault-imposed-on-Musk for dealing with his meanderings, as far as inter-sexual relationships.

    One still has to play the cards that are dealt him, or imagine they are different. And at some point move along as if his father was not there influencing him.

    And no blame on dad, cute puppy syndrome.

    And it goes to the Deida concept of: “Live as if your father were dead. A man must love his father and yet be free of his father’s expectations and criticism in order to be a free man.”

    Elon took in the other direction, from that, though. That which Rollo spoke about in the Slay the Father part of his essay Promise Keepers. The bad dad, good child syndrome. “…determination, bordering on fanaticism, with outdoing the life-performance of their asshole fathers..the end result is the same; a beta who thinks women will categorically appreciate his devotion to the feminine by his promise not to become like “other guys” – like his asshole dad..”

  2. @ wahoo Mcdaniels

    “My take on it, ASD hangs his dick to the right, Blax hangs his to the left,Sjf’s is a bit short…”

    You missed the point!

    Blaximus’ dick is krazy glued to his left butt cheek. Everyone sees it. When they remark about it, he says that they are visually impaired and that they are falsely labeling him as a guy with his dick glued to his left butt cheek. I get the point about maintaining frame, but couldn’t he maintain frame and say, “Yes, my dick is glued to my left butt cheek, you got a problem with that?” I think most men would say, “No, it’s your dick, do what you want with it.”

    As for ASD, I don’t believe he makes any misrepresentations about his dick hang and as for SJF, he did, allegedly, father two children, and a little hubris ain’t such a bad thing on this blog.

  3. It’d be like counterfeiting a quid. You could do it but why? Now, “PalmaSailor” that’s got to be worth a fiver, yes governor, at least!

  4. If I Fell , that denial is a big part of the left handed hang, admission of agenda is a right hang trait. Also if a guy gets tired of stepping on it duck tape isn’t a bad idea.

    SJF , could be a bad dad promise keeper situ yet keeping in mind the consensus reality for the most part that is gaslighting by the hypergamous mom and deemed believable weather real or imagined. Escapeism is par for the course for guys that live off the investors.

    Palma , good luck getting a strong King over parliament. It’s long overdue.

  5. “…yet keeping in mind the consensus reality for the most part that is gaslighting by the hypergamous mom and deemed believable weather real or imagined…”

    The original post made up motivations attributed to Steve Jobs. His father was one that gave him away.

    Your supposed made up consensus reality is making shit up about Musk. It’s not like Musk’s father wasn’t a dick and it’s not like his mother wasn’t nice to her three children, or that she forced father Musks hand to do what he did. Or that she was necessarily a gas-lighter. But it makes good fodder for the un-rested. You can fit any paradigm you would like into a narrative, but it is right there in plain print in the inter-webs.

    Occam’s razor. An abductive heuristic. Probabilistic, not deterministic. Not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result.

  6. SJF, Job’s mother gave him up for adoption, couldn’t say for sure about Musk’s father only that popular gossip in the consensus is putting down dads not moms , just as popular belief is man made climate change. Musk isn’t above capitalizing on common misconceptions. You can put anything all over the web anytime you are inclined to , doesn’t change the facts and the truth always comes out in the final conclusion.

  7. Wahoo

    Popular consensus is what gets young men in trouble with inter-sexual dynamics these days. Because it is gyno-centric. And I won’t mention politics in the equation.

  8. @ wahoo Mcdaniels

    You are right. Your observations match better with reality. I was thinking that in an anonymous forum… But. Yes, duct tape should also work.

  9. “Popular consensus is what gets young men in trouble with inter-sexual dynamics these days. Because it is gyno-centric. And I won’t mention politics in the equation.”

    It makes relationships impossible for both sexes in the equation. It gets young men into trouble at work even.

  10. Well, that sounds awful Lilly White. And Faggy. Transgender–wise WTF, who did that? Two brothers? How the hell did that happen?

    Shit for logic. And for a narrative.

    Next up: changing David Fincher’s Fight Club into not really meaning to punch people in the face. Or talk about it.

  11. Are we done with the gay bathhouse schtick yet? I found it a little strange.

    I’ve been playing on twitter lately. Some trolling, some not. The lefty broads are fun to troll. Standard two sh!t tests and then they chase. It’s as predictable as rain from cumulo-nimbus clouds. It’s all about frame and game.

    The rightwing girls are also fun to mess with, but it’s a little different game.

  12. Next up a rewrite where Neo takes both pills , he heard it is like doing X. He still fight with Smith but keeps running back into the matrix to lick his wounds. Winds up addicted to some new purple pill and after getting out of prison for domestic violence starts teaching anger management classes.

  13. Love in the Time of Covid19…Well, actually…Not even lust…

    My Daughter came to me a little down. She had been seeing/dating exclusively (or so she thought) a guy for about 4 months. She had recently bought him a nice expensive birthday gift. She is in healthcare and her “boyfriend” didn’t want to see her in person for fear of contracting coronavirus, but she persevered. He sent her frequent texts about how he really wanted to be with her. Finally, he came clean and said that he wasn’t ready for a relationship and it wasn’t fair of him to keep seeing her when she was more serious than he. He returned the gift, but wanted to remain friends. Daughter said she didn’t want that.

    From what’s been explained, he graduated college in a career field but works as a waiter. A mamma’s boy. Lives with other guys in a shared apartment, but will be moving back with his mother. He doesn’t have his life even a little together.

    I told her that when I was dating her mother, had she said that she was running a fever, I would have asked for the reading and symptoms before calling off the date. This made her laugh a little.

    I told her, “He’s playing you, move on.”

    She waited another week, then she ran the same scenario by my wife. Funny enough, wife said that daughter was in the 5 stages of grief (like SJF would say—no, I don’t overtly discuss fight club).

    Daughter has limited dating experience as many of her generation do. She’s trying to make this work because she has never wanted to go the route of tinder-instadate-fuck-same-night-done-repeat. She’s told me about telling older men hitting on her to fuck off.

    This raises a lot of questions.

    Rollo mentioned pointing out intersexual dynamics to his daughter. To what extent should this be done? Some say that all women are red pill. It doesn’t seem so in this case. Daughter now seems to want to “root in the garbage already taken out to the curb.” Plus, it’s like she’s trying to win this guy with beta provider game, which is a total role reversal.

    Sentient had a great line to a potential son-in-law about no give backs, break it you bought it, not raising any grandchildren, no hand in my pocket.

    ASDGAMER, has shared the trials of having a loser son-in-law and having to take on the daddy role.

    SJF has shared his happiness that his daughter found a decent guy—someone he can welcome into his tribe.

    QUESTION: Is there anything more a father can do for his daughter?

  14. Husband not worried wife is dating…

    “The split has been tough for him, but he is doing his best to stay positive,” the source said. “They split in the past and then got back together. Brian has no plans to file for divorce. He isn’t ready to date either. It seems he is hoping that he and Megan once again can work things out. He is giving her space and letting her do her thing. He wants her to be happy. He thinks she is a great mom and is not at all bitter that she is dating.”

  15. If I fell

    QUESTION: Is there anything more a father can do for his daughter?

    Have a young guy you like over for dinner. Then send them out to bring back some more wine or dessert.

  16. @If-I-Fell

    I don’t have a daughter so take what you want from it.

    Rollo mentioned pointing out intersexual dynamics to his daughter. To what extent should this be done? 

    What would it change? Her mind? Surely not her feelings?

    The guy hasn’t had a chance to become an irritating furniture. And she’s been pushed away, not the other way round. He may well be a chump, but we know it plays with girls’ feelings. What ifs, lost opportunities, chasing, \/\/\/\/\ and re-living it. Soap operas are built on that.

    Old new maxims: “investment creates compliance” and “it’s all there is to game”. The hamster is doing the rest now.

    Will explaining the evo-bio-psych help her? If there was a better option, her hindbrain would know, follow the heat and move on. Hypergamy, right? She doesn’t need to know how or why. Life finds a way.

    The question seems to be rather if there’s a guy around who could lead her and let her blossom.

  17. If-I-Fell

    I tried to clear my mind and come up with some shit for you. I went out to my farm and cleared my mind a bit. Actually, a lot. Doing shit.

    I went back and tried to review Rollo’s book Positive Masculinity to get some ideas on what to respond to your questions. But there is not much there. Only have a good daughter and teach your son’s well.

    Amused Mastery was never really fleshed out there.

    And having a daughter and being a father and being red pill and making her make good choices was never really fleshed out there either. So Rollo had an attractive wife and bred an attractive daughter that can pick and choose? That’s not open advice.

    Red Pill wise, I remember telling my daughter when she was 23.5 y.o.: Guess when your peak value is? As a woman? She asked me: What? I told her 23 y.o. And she “just got it”. As if, no mystery.
    Hypergamy is not really a mystery. And it is not a foreign concept in cat language. AF/BB. And it is not like Rollo tells it and the red pill realm explains it. It’s not like it can’t be a shape shift. What happens it that women do actually want both. And so the do the cat thing and think in their female mind: I can Imagine my partner as both. Until I can’t. And that is the thing: If she has half a brain she will want both. A guy she want’s to fuck and a guy that is a provider.

    The problem is for a father if a daughter want’s only the half: BB or AF then she is defective.

    The goal for a father is to have her want both. A good provider and a guy she can get on with as a submissive fucker. The sweet spot.
    And what all males should subscribe to in red pill. Have stuff handled. And be attractive. IOW: positive masculinity. And have her be feminine in any way she wants to be.

    My daughter is 28. She had two serial monogomy boyfriends. One in high school for two years, one in college for two years. The one in college for two years was a beta loser(growing up resource wise–mother and father..). It was just after they both watched the Blue Valentine movie that she saw the writing on the wall and dumped him.

    Her husband, my now son-in-law for a year actually does combine the AF/BB archetype. She dated him for 4 years, married a year ago.

    He’s not lacking in both.

    For some reason, I don’t talk to him about red pill. Because he doesn’t fucking need it. I haven’t seen an issue.

    Organic, it seemed like the right thing to do….And it was. So be it. It’s not like a problem, or a mystery, nor a revenge against how the hell do I have to do this? Geez. It fucking happens.

    And did I mention a million times, my people marry and stay married? That’s all we’ve ever done in my culture….

    So, If-I-Fell, one thing is: transmit that you expect the best from her. Give her the idea that she should expect the best from a boyfriend. The absolute best. That can give her the best of both worlds.

    She has the hind-brain that knows hypergamy. You don’t even need to explain it. Just tell her not to settle for the lest than the best and she will just get it. You don’t need to talk red pill fight club. Just use amused mastery to just get it: Tell her: Don’t settle. It isn’t worth it.

    And you didn’t even mention how old she is…

    Which is telling. I assume she is 22 y.o. Which makes her current boyfriend a loser after his college graduation a loser from what you described

    If she is in heath care, guess what her options are for better…Fucking pursue a doctor. But be discriminatory–very few are not fucked up, personality wise. The Pareto distribution…

    So if your daughter is down. Get her up. Tell her to set her sights higher. In heath-care the sights are limitless. Just don’t have her pick a loser doctor.

    Come back at this for further dialog. Because I hope I can help clear your mind. I hope for her best.

  18. I hate to say that what prompted me to post was coming across Fiona Apple’s song Criminal on my ear-buds, going to sleep:

    This song is about Apple making a mistake in a relationship (cheating, perhaps?) and therefore making her a “criminal.” Depression and self-loathing were a common theme in Fiona’s songwriting at the time. She told Interview magazine: “It’s psychologically and chemically impossible for me to be happy.”

    I’m not imputing this on your daughter. Just don’t let her impute it on herself.

    The world is an oyster.

    It doesn’t hurt for a father to tell his daughter to shoot for the best. With what ever tools he has.

    And the best advice is to demonstrate by being a role model to the mother–the relationship of positive role model–mom-dad…


  19. I still don’t believe that this is the real if I fell that hired a vintage Chevy for the day and took his son out for a blast

  20. Rollo, you are at your best when you dissect RP/ BP behaviour in real life, with real examples. Its how the theory, evidence is demonstrated and absorbed most effectivelly. Youve done such a great job in sharing the evidence, principles, its really good to see (and feel) how they apply in real life scenarios that men can relate to.

  21. Thanks IRL, Sentient, SJF

    Sorry it took me so long to acknowledge, but I decided to perform two days of outdoor maintenance to the point where I was a physical wreck.

    Daughter is 25.5, but in terms of dating experience she might as well be 17. I wish she had the experience of having a high school steady, but that’s this generation’s thing.

    She did stop by for a short, social distancing driveway visit. She is still smarting–saying she didn’t understand how the guy could be saying he was tired of the relationship when he had put no effort into it. I had to get back to my labors, but wife told her that you can’t change the other person in a relationship. They are who they are.

    Her long-long time best girlfriend is “panic-marrying” a guy she lives with. He is a super jealous, controlling, beta guy. This guy actually “controls” the amount of time best girlfriend and daughter spend together.

    She’s told me that her coworkers tell her that healthcare workers and firefighters are the worst for fidelity with some making very little effort to conceal their extramarital activities.

    I’ll do more to reinforce in her to expect the best of both “worlds”.

    @PalmaSailor, it was a V8 Ford Mustang.

  22. “I had to get back to my labors, but wife told her that you can’t change the other person in a relationship. They are who they are.

    Her long-long time best girlfriend is “panic-marrying” a guy she lives with. He is a super jealous, controlling, beta guy. This guy actually “controls” the amount of time best girlfriend and daughter spend together.”

    Sounds like your wife and you really are complementary to each other in parenting and she (your wife) sounds smart, feminine wiles, wise.

    Two good messages in two paragraphs there…

    But, problem is it sounds like your daughter is too influenced by the community rather than you two. And the “community” is family, neighborhood, schools–high school and college, and then all the larger political, feminism and soy boy cultural baggage.

    To tell you the truth, If-I-Fell, I have forgotten your back story. If you could refresh it in regards to your marriage, in only two sentences I would appreciate it.

    And oh, my, gosh 25.5 year’s old is totally in between time for your daughter. (And in that regard, I would recommend either you or your wife read Dave Gray’s Liminal Thinking Book. Or just look at his website or look at his YouTubes.) She’s in a total liminal space. <“The liminal space is the “crossing over” space – a space where you have left something behind, yet you are not yet fully in something else.”

    I assume you can talk over things with your wife in regards to parenting these days without it being contentious, i.e. not arguing with your wife. IOW, talk to your wife outside the bedroom on what you can do–Good Cop/Bad Cop, or even better good father, with amused mastery, good mother with wisdom, feminine wiles and life experience. With the goal of not letting your daughter settle for less than excellence, both in her self and with a boyfriend and future LTR. Daughter’s are best married to an excellent son-in-law.

    And I know of your physical exhaustion. I went through it this weekend. Planting work at my farm in hot humid weather and lots of physical work. I ended up coming through with some narrow window planting times. And had a great meetup yesterday after physical work with being over to to my daughter and son-in-law’s yesterday a week after their first wedding anniversary with my son and wife, and the SIL’s father and second wife. It was awesome. We did yardwork yesterday on Memorial day, and I got so totally dehydrated because of the heat and humidity, than when my wife went to fuck me after dinner, and I had a huge boner, first my feet cramped up and then when I went to roll off of her, I had the worst cramps in my biceps. Never happened to me ever in my life of 59 years. The severe cramps, not the big boner. No big deal. I was totally dehydrated and electrolyte depleted (from super ketogenic lifestyle–I just can’t keep the electrolytes in. I’ll have to work on that.)

    My birthday was yesterday. Memorial. My birthday present was a haircut after 2 months from my wife. (Like I said, I gave her a $10 acrylic cool looking black cat sculpture for her 55th birthday three weeks ago.) We my wife and I had our 30th anniversary two weeks ago. My daughter. Her husband had his birthday recently too. My daughter had her birthday back on Leap Day. So a lot of round numbers, but my daughter was radiant the other day when we were over and there is no better joy than seeing that and her smile and her bright eyes with no negativism. She laughed and said: “Yeah, we don’t have to celebrate anything until her brother, my son’s, birthday in December.

    But they announced plans to have a “festival” on my wildlife habitat farm in three weeks since their normal lifestyle music festivals are covid blocked. So that should be cool. Camping out and enjoying life in nature. Tents, campfire, touring a pretty place…

    So go for healthy, normal, not seeking external validation behaviors, not allowing gas-lighting (in her or him–being non-reactive when that happens–gas lighting is merely a shit test in either direction. In the latest original essay: Pro-Revenge, that is merely gas-lighting by a gamma male), wanting the best for your daughter.

    Proceeding forward with your’s and your wife’s wisdom. Don’t sacrifice your ideals for your adult children, but let them get what is best, because you are doing it yourself. Let them feed off of you.

    The manosphere has a wicked way of receiving gas-lighting and trying to dish it out. In the end, when we look back, we did the best we could (at all different skill levels). And when your daughter meets up with a guy, there is the initial two years of interacting, then there is the after resolving difficulties and making her and her guy the best thing they can be for them, and then having good parenting skills that raise the best kids.

    So best of guidance to you.

  23. And for the record, I’m not telling about myself to gloss myself. I don’t need to.

    I’m doing it to tell a story or a half story. To relate.

    That’s what guys do.

    I just put together a thought about what I’ve experienced before by guys telling hunting or farming or wildlife habitat stories or lecturing in a gas-lighting mode. In other words to put the other down, in order to build their self up. To try to create cognitive dissonance in the other. I went on this fishing trip/ I shot this bear and put the hide up on my wall or floor. I did this/I did that.

    It’s not about that. It’s about relating in order to have a dialogue.

    It’s like I snapped at Coolio in the current OP thread. Masculine blog, social retart. Who can’t even give a story about himself because he doesn’t know how to talk in normal conversation with a harmonious group of guys?

    IOW, he just shouts at a crowd. Or is narcissistic, or believes in social warfare always, or is a pimp, or is a gym rat, or was born into wealth, or got lucky, or is young and enthusiastic. You get the idea. Guy says something in a forum/group/dinner party.Walks in without regard to who he is talking to. What’s the frame of reference? Whatever comes out of your mouth is filtered by someone else’s perception. Keep that in mind. It is domain dependent…

    And always has been.

    When you want to learn something or resonate with someone. Guess what you judge based on what a person says, based on their domain and reference experiences, stories and successes. Not failures, not black pill whining, etc.

    Why else you think there are Frank Herbert Dune Quotes? Because he didn’t tell a story with a frame of reference?

  24. @ if i fell

    I stand corrected. Gut feeling was that you were being sock puppeted.

  25. I had a full day of work followed by another hour and a half of yard work.

    Thanks for the tip on Dave Gray. I’ll look into it; better yet, I’ll find some way to get the wife to look into it. She’s the one out of work at the present. We’re not without skills, but they can always be improved.

    I had to laugh when you mentioned your wedding date. After the fact, I asked my wife how she had picked our wedding date. She explained that she wanted it within the year, because she was afraid I would back out. Then she picked the exact calendar date 6 months from her birthday, because she wanted something to look forward to at least twice a year.

    Back Story: Together 37 years, married 30, raised daughter and son. We have an atypical relationship and I often refer to her as a unicorn. In Myers Briggs personality typing terms, I’m INTP (The Thinkers) she’s ISFJ (The Nurturers). She grounds me and I lighten her up. It’s extremely good fortune and not screwing things up beyond repair.

    It’s not glossing if it’s authentic and celebratory.

  26. “I’m INTP (The Thinkers) she’s ISFJ (The Nurturers)”

    Holy shit. That explains a lot. Rolling around in the mud a lot.
    And I don’t mean that as a pejorative.

    Atypical for sure. “We’re not without skills, but they can always be improved.” Goes with the design. And explains you two. Best of Luck going forward.

    And thanks for the kind words about being celebratory. That hits the spot with our current relationship and having raised adult children and being on even keel. That is cool of you to mention that.

    I see you and your wife have a unique Myers-Briggs. It’s a shame Rollo started the shaming of the understanding of it in the manosphere for selfish reasons. You know, Carl Jung and the follow on woman and daughter franchise. I understand why.

    Nick Krauser and Black Label Logic are INTJ’s and got masculine logic from how they think that way. Not just that but what their preferences are in dealing with outside crap. It’s a useful heuristic. For those that care to move forward.

    I’m a proud INTJ and my wife is a strong feminine ENTP. And that is very complementary.

    Life is good. It’s not a shit show. It’s Beautiful. Keep it that way and teach your children well…

  27. Here is an excerpt of the Dave Gray book which is actually short and sweet:

    Could actually be a lesson to the terse Indian that is trying to get cheat codes on the current Field Reports too. Relates to game too.

    But I would caution that you have to watch when others are telling you stories to watch out for narcissim, gaslighting and boring. I’ve seen that happen in male spaces, esp. with hunting spaces. Trying to self aggrandize and act as if value is with a boring story, but that is and aside from positive story telling

    And parental story telling like If-I-fell and his wife relating positive stories to their daughter. Seperate issue…

    Make Sense with Stories

    How could you live and have no story to tell?
    —Fyodor Dostoyevsky

    I was in a taxi with the CEO and the head of sales. It was sort of an accident that I was in the taxi. It just so happened that we were all heading to the airport about the same time.

    The executives were deeply involved in a conversation that I wouldn’t have usually heard. I was in the front seat, and they were in the back. They were talking about sales numbers.

    It became evident to me that they were explaining the sales numbers to themselves using self-sealing logic. They were simply looking at the numbers and making up stories to explain why the sales weren’t happening.

    This guy isn’t stepping up to the plate. That person dropped the ball. This person is incompetent. I knew enough about the situation to realize that these stories they were telling each other were pure fantasy.

    I said, “Have you talked to the customer? What about talking to the customer?”
    What do you think they said? Do you have a guess?

    They didn’t say a thing. They just paused in their conversation, and after a moment they just went right back to their fantasy conversation.

    That’s how powerful self-sealing logic is.

    This is so common. People ask, “Why isn’t this happening?” and instead of going out and exploring, trying to find valid information, they make up stories.

    I’ve been telling a lot of stories in this book. Story after story. Every chapter starts with a story. Why am I telling all these stories?

    I started out this book by explaining that a belief is a story in your head. Stories are one of the primary ways we make sense of experiences. To share those experiences later, we tell a story. When people tell stories, they are not just sharing knowledge, but building relationships and expressing beliefs.

    Why stories? Facts alone may provide information, but a story gives you context that connects those facts to people, situations, and events. It gives them meaning. Give people facts without a story, and they will create a story to make sense of the facts.

    Stories are learning tools. Since language began, a story was the best way to share an experience so that others could learn from it.

    In fact, a good story works like a drug, releasing hormones in the brains of the teller and listeners. Brain scans show that when people share stories with each other, their brains connect and mirror each other. Their neurons literally fire in the same pattern in a phenomenon known as neural coupling.

    When people hear a stressful, dramatic, high point of a story, their brain releases cortisol, the same hormone that creates the fight-or-flight response and creates strong memories of emotional experiences. And when conflicts or difficulties are resolved, the brain releases oxytocin, the hormone released by physical touch, which creates social bonds and feelings of contentment, calm, and security.

    When someone tells you a story, they are sharing an experience and expressing their beliefs about that experience at the same time. In addition, both teller and listener are pairing their brains, building relationships and creating social cohesion that makes it easier for them to develop shared goals and move toward those goals in a collaborative, coordinated way.

    Prompting other people to tell stories, and listening to them, is as much of an art as storytelling. When you ask someone to tell a story, you are telling them that their experiences are important, that they have meaning, and that they matter.

    A good way to elicit stories from people is through the use of something called a story prompt. Story prompts are questions about people’s experiences and how they made meaning out of them. Things like:

    “Think of the best team you’ve ever been a part of. What happened that made you feel that way?”

    “What is the most scared you have ever been? What happened?”

    “Tell me about a time when you felt uncomfortable or out of place. What did you do about it?”
    “What was your best day at work here, and what made it great?”

    “What was your worst day, and what happened that made it so bad?”

    “Did you ever have an experience that changed your life? What happened?”

    When you ask someone to tell you a story, you are inviting them to deepen their connection with you, to bond with you. It’s an invitation that says their life and experiences are important, meaningful, and worth learning from. It’s a simple step you can take, every day, to create a shared world with the people who matter to you.

    Every good story starts with a person in some kind of situation: a problem, a choice, or an opportunity. Then the story tells you what they did, and why, and then it tells you what happened because of that. Maybe a lesson was learned. If the story is good enough, it’s worth remembering and repeating to others.

    This makes a story a perfect mechanism for making sense of, and sharing, information. In effect, a story translates facts into “rules for action.” A story is just about the most perfect way to package and share beliefs that you will ever find.

    Listen to the stories someone tells, notice the stories they respond to most positively, and you will begin to understand their beliefs—and their bubble.

    If you have beliefs that you want to share, beliefs that you think may change the world for the better, the way to help those beliefs take flight is to share them as stories.

    Make sense with stories.

    If you give people facts without a story, they will explain it within their existing belief system. The best way to promote a new or different belief is not with facts, but with a story.

  28. @SJF:

    That looks like an issue of hard coded formatting in the original text, not an issue with the site.

  29. This very much goes along with the fact that what a woman is ‘Attracted’ to is not necessarily what she is ‘Aroused’ by. Men and women both feel attraction as well as arousal for the opposite sex, but the problem is that non Red Pilled men (and most women) don’t realize that just because they (men) are ‘Attracted’ to AND ‘Aroused’ by the same things in woman (great ass, great tits, etc.), women are NOT. A woman is ‘Attracted’ to a man’s high-paying job, future prospects and love of puppies, but she is ‘Aroused’ by six-pack abs, long black hair & skill on a six-string–two DIFFERENT men can fulfill these feelings (i.e. Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks).

    Just because a woman can love am man doesn’t mean she will LUST for that man. If she doesn’t drop her draws at the drop of a hat and stick her ass up in the air when you say ‘Daddy wants his hole’, my friend, you are the man she settled on and will never be the man she lust for.

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