Transactional vs. Validational Sex

You cannot negotiate genuine desire.

This is one of my best known quotes because it resonates with so many men. There was a time in the early 2000s when I was doing peer counseling for men – most of whom were at least a decade my senior – as part of my undergraduate study and one consistent theme I got from almost all of them was how their marriages (or LTRs) had been so much more sexually satisfying when they were dating their wives or before they’d committed to some kind of exclusivity. That’s always the crux of it for guys. They mistakenly believed that the hot monkey sex they were having with their women prior to “doing the right thing” and getting married or committed was something that would be characteristic of their quality woman into a long term relationship with them.

Why was this the case for guys? I can remember coming up with this quote as part of the advice I was giving while working for one of these men. He, like many of the other guys, had gotten to the point that he would do almost anything to get back to that real desire that convinced him to commit to his wife in the first place. And, like many of these guys, he’d convinced his wife to go to marriage counseling in order to find out what exactly it was that he needed to do to “get her to come around” to wanting to bang him. Nothing was working for him. Even after his sessions he was still either sexless or his wife only begrudgingly would have lackluster ‘starfish’ sex with him. We called that a ‘grudge fuck’ back then.

As a student of behavioral psychology my interest was (still is) in what motivates or incentivizes behavior in people (sometimes animals). What was it that inspires genuine desire as opposed to behavior that still has a purpose, but was more motivated by future outcome. You can make a case that genuine desire is also motivated by a perceived outcome, but in this instance I’m making a distinction between a natural, unsolicited desire as opposed to an incentive based on a preconceived outcome – if all goes according to plan.

This guy broke down in tears with me on at least two occasions. He just couldn’t understand why what was supposed to work (open communication, rational discourse and honest negotiation) wasn’t getting her to “come around” to having sex with him. It was then I thought, you cannot negotiate genuine desire. Either a woman wants  to fuck you or she doesn’t. There are definitely ways to prompt that genuine desire – most of which are behavioral and conditional – but as has been stated many times in the ‘sphere, attraction is not a choice. The key word there is choice. Few men would ‘choose’ to be attracted by an obese woman and in many ways this choice dynamic is why women promoting the ‘body acceptance’ narrative have a tough time of it. For all the nonsense about beauty being a social construct, arousal for men is very much rooted in evolved biology. Men can’t choose to get an erection for a woman they’re simply not aroused by.

The same holds true for women, but the conditions are different. Women can and do have sex for reasons other than genuine desire. Negotiated desire really isn’t desire at all, but women have readily used sexual access to achieve those perceived outcomes I mentioned above here. Negotiated desire only ever leads to obligated compliance. A talented hooker or stripper may be very convincing in her act that she’s really into having sex with a man, but the negotiation that takes place before the act can never make a woman want to have sex with her client. Attraction is not a choice, but really, arousal is not a choice either.

Hormonal

I am presently about half way through my read of Dr. Martie Haselton’s new book Hormonal. I was really anticipating this book’s release, and I had intended to do my first-ever book review of it here, but as I read through I’ve decided not to. I still highly recommend reading it. As you might guess it’s chock full of stats and research confirmation of so much of what I write here that I want to put it at the top of the required Rational Male reading list. I’ve been referencing Dr. Haselton’s (and her colleagues) work since I began this blog, but the delivery of the information was disappointing, and in a lot of instances, very immature and sophomoric. It’s written almost as an apologetic to feminists for having to kill a lot of sacred feminist social convention cows. I feel as if she’s writing ‘down’ to the women who she’ll inevitably market this book to, but, if you can get past her constant attempts to legitimize her feminist credentials, the information is absolute gold.

One aspect of female sexual dynamics that Haselton and her team detail quite a bit is the idea of an Estrus state in human females. I’m not sure how well appreciated this research is in the manosphere, which is one reason I included it in Positive Masculinity, but this concept is really integral to how we define Hypergamy. As most of my readers know, Hypergamy – women’s dualistic sexual strategy (and really life strategy) – is much more than a tendency of a woman to ‘marry up’. In Hormonal the ideas of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks really solidify with the research.

However, as useful as it is as a catchy euphemism Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks could better be described as Alpha Seed and Beta Need. In a woman’s peak ovulatory phase of her menstrual cycle she enters an estrus state and becomes subject to behaviors that can only be defined as a pretext of seeking Alpha seed. In other words, nature and Hypergamy are very practical in maximizing the chances that a woman may get pregnant with the best available genetic specimen. Granted, the true outcome of all of that is subject to environment and a woman’s personal conditions, but the practicality of it remains the same as it has for 100,000 years. It’s also important to keep in mind that a woman’s behaviors, strategies, rationales and her own interpretation of all of them in those various times and conditions are also a part of the overall latent purpose of a woman consolidating on the best Alpha Seed and Beta to supply her needs.

While women are subject to an estrus state they still require the second half of Hypergamy – the Beta need for security, provisioning, protection, comfort and at least the sharing of parental investment responsibilities for any offspring. Estrus in women is concealed, meaning it is (or used to be) nearly, but not totally undetectable in women. There are in fact various ways men evolved to intuitively determine whether a woman is in an estrus state of fertility; most of these today are socially shamed in men so as to further confuse them and advantage women, but that’s a topic for another essay. A concealed estrus aids women in optimizing both Alpha Seed and Beta Need and it’s likely that much of what accounts for women’s sexual strategy is the result of this concealment.

Now, a lot has been written by myself and others about the impact of meeting a woman’s Beta Need aspect of Hypergamy being served by the state and/or direct or indirect transfers of resources from men to women. Most of my readers are well aware of how this side of Hypergamy has been progressively accommodated for over the past fifty years. In spite of this it’s important to remember that this accommodation of provisioning needs doesn’t eliminate the deeper needs that this side of Hypergamy engenders in women. It may be true that women have never been better provided for in history as far as money and opportunities go, but women still look for emotional security, protection, dominance and comfort in men as part of their innate mental firmware.

As a result of Hypergamy and this concealed estrus state women have been put into a condition of evaluating sex in different aspects today.

Validational Sex

When women look for that Alpha Seed in their peak ovulatory (proliferative) phase, the sex they seek is a desired sex with a man who meets evolutionary criteria. He’s the ‘hawt’ guy, or the man who leaves a woman with an perception of danger or excitement. A lot of men who don’t meet this criteria have a tendency to over-exaggerate this type of man as the ‘Alpha Chad’ and make a ridiculous parody of him as an ego protection mechanism for themselves. Let me state for the record here that every aspect and adjective that this type of guy embodies is mitigated by conditions and contexts. It is just as likely that this conventionally masculine dominant guy is only so according to his most immediate social situation. So spare me the “Chad Thundercock” anxieties.

The sex that women give “enthusiastic consent” for is validational for them. The easy assessment here is that women have a genuine desire to mate with conventionally masculine men who look and act the part – yes, behavioral congruency is vital. If you follow the research women consciously and unconsciously will actively put themselves into environments where the likelihood of their meeting a dominant masculine man who most closely matched that masculine ideal when they are in estrus. They openly and discreetly look of arousal cue from men who best embody what can only be described as Alpha Seed.

I should also add that women in “satisfying relationships” (meaning LTRs where a woman is still very hot for her husband/boyfriend) report an increase in sexual desire (proceptivity) for that guy during this phase. A lot of guys mistakenly think ANY woman will want to seek out extra-pair mating (cheating) opportunities when they’re in estrus. This is only true if a woman isn’t into her current man.

I don’t want to get too lost in the descriptions here. Rather, I want to focus on the associative feelings women get in and after having sex with that Alpha man during estrus. I would argue that Alpha Widows are made in the estrus phase. This is the sex women want to have and are enthusiastic in both the hunt and the act itself. This is largely (presumedly) the sex that men have with their wives-to-be before they marry. It’s this validational sex, the sex that women fantasize about, that men and women want to get back to once they are committed to each other monogamously but now have a dead bedroom. This sex validates a woman’s ego in that it proves to herself that a man of this SMV caliber would want to pin her to the bed and have marathon sex with her. Remember, the latent purpose of this sex, on this side of Hypergamy, is to access the sperm from men with high reproductive value as defined by what our evolved nature predisposes women to be aroused by. Validational sex is sex by choice and genuine desire, and is satisfying on both a psychological level and an evolutionary level.

Transactional Sex

One of the benefits of a concealed estrus is that it allows women a few luxuries. One of these was the ability to confuse men of their paternity. Today this confusion is little more difficult because we’ve got DNA figured out well enough to make accurate assessments, but in our evolutionary past it was important to trick cuckolded fathers into second guessing whether a child was his or not before he killed it and impregnated a woman on his own (this is also why men evolved mate guarding behaviors).

The other advantage of concealed estrus was essentially prostitution. Now, to pretty this up a bit, lets say that women who were sexual with men outside of their fertility window found that sex could be leveraged with non-Alpha men (men they didn’t want to have children with) to encourage them to help with a lot of the chores more Alpha men were less willing (but not entirely unwilling) to do. Enter transactional sex.

As mentioned, the most overt form of transactional sex is prostitution, but it’s impolite to call every woman a whore. In fact it’s impolite to even imply a woman may be having sex for other reasons than validational sex. Today women are contemplating whether or not transactional sex is itself rape since it technically meets the definition of rape (sex women don’t want to have). I discussed this “grey area sex” recently in another essay, but it’s interesting to see women wrestle with transactional sex in an era where the Future is Female and women ought to only have the (validational) sex they want to enthusiastically have.

For most men (i.e the 80% Beta men) transactional sex is where the rubber meets the road. In fact, I’d argue that for most Beta men transactional sex is the only definition of sex they ever really know. That’s kind of sad to think about, but most men never really experience the unfettered feral lust of a woman they’ve chosen to spend the rest of their lives with. I got into this in Saving the Best and Hats Off to the Bull, but I think it’s important for the average man today to acknowledge that it’s highly likely that their wives have shared parts of themselves with, and have lost all inhibitions with, men in their sexual pasts they may never know anything about. That’s a cold bucket of reality a lot of men who unplug from all this have to confront.

Marriage today is almost entirely predicated on on the transactional sex side of Hypergamy. I’m not saying it has to be, nor am I saying it always is, but I’m fairly comfortable in speculating that for most married women sex is reward she uses in the operant conditioning of her husband. And the very fact that this is effective with most husbands throws the power dynamic and Frame of the relationship firmly over to the wife. This has the effect of disqualifying that man from ever (or very rarely) being a candidate for validational sex within that marriage. And this too is another aspect of the transactional sex dynamic that modern feminists are contemplating today – if a woman doesn’t want to have sex with her husband, but does anyway, is it rape? But again, NAMALT, not all marriages are like this or have to be like this. I would also argue that a confident man whom a woman admires, who she recognizes as being above her SMV even if slightly and who has internalized Red Pill awareness within that marriage needn’t be doomed to transactional “duty” sex in his marriage.

Unnegotiated Desire

And so now we come full circle to the men I was counseling back in the day. Because all they’d ever known was transactional sex their deductive male brains attempted to solve their “sex problem” in the most logistical and pragmatic way – negotiate with her. If all sex ever is for a guy is a transaction – a quid pro quo – then it follows he’ll try to find the best way to ‘pay’ for his wife’s sexual access. Hunter Drew and I were recently discussing a man who Dean Abbot has been counseling and one thing we’ve all seen a lot of from young and old Blue Pill Beta men is this logical tendency for them to want to ‘sacrifice their way to happiness with their wives’. It’s as if the more they sacrifice the more they pay for that intimacy they seek, but what they never get is that this only buries their sex lives that much more.

One amazing turn around a lot of married and single Red Pill guys experience when they unplug is the attention they receive from women when they switch from a transactional disposition to a validational disposition with regard to sex. When a man unplugs and cuts himself away from his Blue Pill conditioning one change he makes is a shift from viewing sex as transactional to validational. In the beginning, when men are first learning Game and becoming more Red Pill aware about the nature of women they really don’t recognize this shift in attitude towards sex. When I say men need to make themselves the “prize” with regards to sex and their attention what happens is they go from the “how can I pay for sex to qualify for it with a woman” to “women will recognize that I represent and opportunity for validational sex”.

The Blue Pill conditions men to base their understanding of sex on a transactional paradigm. It’s all scarcity, and luck or providence that a woman might want to fuck them. This is why women get aggravated by the presumption that men might feel they are ‘owed sex‘ in exchange for what they do for them. And why wouldn’t men feel that way? They’ve been conditioned for half a life to believe that they should follow the old social contract and become a man with a lot to offer a woman, a wife. This is the transactional paradigm; I build my life to better accommodate a woman and she reciprocates with sex. Women know this too, so all pretenses of indignation about are complete bullshit. What upsets women is that a Beta man would feel entitled to her sexuality for having accommodated her. Alpha men are entitled to it, accommodations be damned, because he’s the man they want to have sex with.

596 comments

  1. Agreed completely with the above.
    What is missing is an explicit statement that for non-Alpha men (85+% by my reckoning), NO commitment to them by a woman will EVER be held up by the woman, not in spirit, and probably not by letter, either. That means that no marriage or other relationship-type agreement (legal or otherwise) with a woman can be entered into with any expectation of it having been a wise idea. Thus, any man that would want what he (wrongly) thinks a marriage would give him, should 100% avoid them like the plague. Call girls, ONS, some STRs of uggos or post-Ephiphany Phase women for sex, and egg donor with gestational surrogacy (while unmarried then and forever) for fatherhood, is how it has to be, until our country goes unstupid.

  2. a woman they’ve chosen to spend the rest of their lives with.

    It should be “a man she has chosen to spend the rest of her life with.”

    If she doesn’t have ONE-itis – reinforced by Game – it is not going to work.

  3. Great piece Rollo.
    I have very recently experienced the validational sex from a 25-year old Asian girl.

    Because I had a ‘good body’ and it was her last day in the country before flying back home, it translated to her mouth on my junk in backseat of my car in less than 15 mins of us meeting. Which includes the drive from the cafe to nearby business center parking lot.

    Sparing the details the sex was pretty bad. As a recovering beta the concept of a fine cute ass bending over for my taking was too much. And nut busting happened too quick.

    But having past the red pill rage I wanted to experience it more for the affirmation of the red pill wisdom than sex in itself.

    So yeah validation sex is quite positive experience for male psyche because the ‘feral lust’ in a woman is a sight to behold.

  4. one thing we’ve all seen a lot of from young and old Blue Pill Beta men is this logical tendency for them to want to ‘sacrifice their way to happiness with their wives’. It’s as if the more they sacrifice the more they pay for that intimacy they seek, but what they never get is that this only buries their sex lives that much more.

    ~Rollo Tomassi ( @RationalMale @RationalMale on Twitter) from his “THE RATIONAL MALE” post “TRANSACTIONAL VS. VALIDATIONAL SEX” which helps men become the men that physically fit, super attractive true Christian women want to commit to and be 100% faithful to (at no charge to his readers/students/those he mentors/the men that say he’s like the wonderful, masculine, Christian Dad they never had)

    When Sandy and I were dating, I attempted to hold her hand one night. She jerked back and said that the thought of holding my hand kind of made her sick. She said it in the nicest way possible, but for whatever reason, I simply wasn’t appealing to her. My temptation was to lick my wounds and walk away. Instead, I told her that I wasn’t in this relationship to hold hands or do anything else but be with her. Well, that obviously had an impact on her because we eventually did hold hands. Furthermore, we eventually got married.
    …When we finally married, I was shocked to find that sex was a painful experience for her. She wanted no part of it. I was humiliated, felt like a failure, and had no idea what to do. Then I remembered the hand holding incident. I went back to that place and realized that I had to be of the same mind now that I was then.

    ~Stephen Arterburn ( @SteveArterburn on Twitter ) from his book “Every Man’s Marriage” which taught men to be a “Sensitive New Age Guy” (SNAG*) so as to LJBF themselves in both monogamous dating and in a monogamous heterosexual marriage… leading to the complete destruction of potentially up to deca-millions of men while likely still increasing the number of male suicides even now.

    As Dalrock has stated, “Because he was obedient to God during their courtship by LJBFing himself, he was prepared by God for his unexpectedly sexless marriage. This helped him double down on stupidity”

    *Dalrock’s (Christian manosphere blogger) words, not Arterburn’s

  5. Rollo,

    Hit this out of the park:

    “I think it’s important for the average man today to acknowledge that it’s highly likely that their wives have shared parts of themselves with, and have lost all inhibitions with, men in their sexual pasts they may never know anything about. That’s a cold bucket of reality a lot of men who unplug from all this have to confront.”

    The above is a dammmm freezing cold bucket of water when you think about it. This to me is the hardest part of unplugging for a man awakened while married. The truth shall set you free but it hurts like hell……

  6. There are some things men need to learn and live by. The first is that almost all women are whores. You either pay the Alpha Fucks/ Alpha Seed method by using the currency of sexual charm(GAME) or you pay using the Beta Bucks/eta Need method by using the currency of provisioning and protecting. Most men use both, but women in this day and age especially in the West and particularly in the USA strongly prefer the Sexual Charm currency. The next thing to remember is that women’s romantic love is the lowest form of adult love their is. Obsolete Biological Wiring coupled with Social Programing convincing you that her romantic love is equal to and maybe even greater than your romantic love that you as a man give to her are observably false, logically false and factually false no matter how much your emotions and instincts tell you otherwise. The reason for this is because there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for another human being. Men’s romantic love quite often propels them to lay down their lives to be humiliated, maimed, mutilated and killed for women, but the opposite of women’s romantic love propelling women to lay down their lives for men is rare. I was born in 1968 just like Rollo Tomassi, and I can tell you that most women do not respect men’s romantic love for them much less attempt to reciprocate it equally. It has been like this when I was a teenage boy. It has only gotten worse in succeeding generations and as the years have passed by for my generation. Women never were able nor willing to fully reciprocate the romantic love which men gave to women, but at least in my parents and even more so my grandparents’ generation the women had more respect and appreciation for what men tried to do for women. That was lost in my Generation X generation and lost even more so with the millenials. Feminist Supremicism has made women worse and worse. Adjust your lives accordingly, gentlemen.

  7. I have experienced validational sex several times in my lifetime so I think I was fortunate. Most of the sex I have experienced has been transactional of one form or another both in marriage and out of marriage. Interestingly enough in retrospect, I “knew” it was transactional in nature and often involved alcohol on her part. I just sensed a tiny bit of disgust but plowed through anyway. Being able to read body language and physical tells kinda cued me in and in most cases, I felt a little disappointment both during and after. But I gotta tell ya, I still remember that validational sex even though some of it happened decades ago. They “wanted” me and let me know so through their own bodies. True desire is a magnificent thing to behold.

    Perhaps I was “alpha-widowed” by these women. One was actually quite beautiful (I still have slides of her taken with a Nikon F2 Photomic) but it was the desire that rocked my world. These women had absolutely abandoned all reason for me and you could see it in their eyes.

    Now, if those tells aren’t there, I don’t even hardly bother and certainly don’t invest any time or treasure in them. They gotta bring it to me.

    RP gives men the tools to increase the likelihood of that happening, this I know to be true but what I also know, is that window of opportunity decreases with age and usually happens when a woman is being driven nuts by her hormones during her prime reproductive years. Not so much with older women and really not so much with peri or post-menopausal women unless…..they patch up. I have seen this but it ain’t quite as fun fun with a 58 year old as it was with a 23 year old.

  8. Validational sex versus transactional sex…what a world of difference. The single best story of validational sex for me comes from over 35 years ago. I was the ‘bull” for a very hot 20 year-old who had a boyfriend. Once I was warming her up and fingering her and she said that she was ovulating and perhaps it wasn’t a good idea….I told her “you have no idea how hot that makes me.” I had no sooner said that when her pussy literally gushed. One of the single best fucks of my life ever. Later on, she would tell me that she felt guilty when she had sex with her boyfriend and sought my understanding that she had to do it once in a while….Alpha fux-beta bux, yes, it is for real.

  9. When you take TRP and have experienced both types of sex things become clear.

    You just don’t want the transactional type anymore. It becomes very clear to you what the two types are and why you’re getting each type at the exact moment you’re getting it.

    This is the main problem with re entry to any type of LTR. The sheer amount of game you will need to retain genuine desire in your mate. Plus the realisation that the transactional type is exactly that.

    This is why I won’t do an exclusive LTR and spin plates now.

    You can achieve validation sex if you do it right.

  10. The next thing to remember is that women’s romantic love is the lowest form of adult love their is.

    You teach them how to bond. If you do it right they can’t get enough. For bonding to work she has to surrender to you. A lost art. Still. It can be taught. At least a woman with ONE-itis can be taught how.

  11. The most enlightening thing I’ve ever done since learning game …is to withhold sex if the girl was acting out…

    The freeze out is a powerful tool along with dread game to keep the sex validational.

  12. @Rollo: beyond the 20/80 split (or 10/90 or whatever), I think that the “majority” betas do get occasionally validational sex in some specific contexts.

    You even start this post with those examples – those guys that in the marriage are sexless or nearly so, did get validational sex before getting married. They probably weren’t in the 20% even back then, but they still got a “taste” for it.

    This might be nitpicking but I think it is important – I wouldn’t say that the 80% only know transactional sex.

    There will be many betas that only know it all their lives, but there will also be a significant chunk of betas that unknowingly hit on the right switches situationally and get a taste for it, and arguably that is quite dangerous because it makes (even more) prone for One-itis for the girl that they inadvertently got the validational sex with.

  13. If the only type of sex you can get from a woman/women is transactional in nature, then the most pragmatic solution would be to use the services of call girls, at least they will be hotter! ( and probably less risky than some CC rider that barebacks Alphas).

    Strangely enough even my marriage to my ex BPD Italian
    Baby momma, was littered with validational sex.
    She was a multi millionaire in her own right, semi nude calendar girl with a “fan page” where she would receive hundreds of messages from thirsty men who had seen her calendar “work”.
    She had been groomed by her family to marry a good Italian boy from a good family, yet she chose me an electrician from the UK she met while on vacation in Miami!

    I recall not long after getting married ( she was pregnant) we were showering together and she grabbed my manhood looked me in the eyes and said “ I married you for this!”. She complained that I didn’t give HER enough sex and I have a high sex drive!

    For me it is Alien to experience transactional sex as I feed of a woman’s enthusiasm, it’s probably the major component of what turns me on in the naughty room. I couldn’t accept transactional sex as I recognise it and it’s such a turn off for me, even if the woman is hot, if she’s not into me sexually I won’t be sticking around after I have established her lack of genuine desire to fuck me.

    Looking back my ex-oneitis, the girl that brought me here is a great example of the dynamic!
    She made me wait! ( I know !) and was super hot, very feminine, no tattoos, zero social media, very traditional type ( asked permission to take phone calls and use the restroom).

    I thought I’d found a unicorn and fell for her even before we had fucked ( again I know lol).

    Turns out doing the waiting game destroyed her initial ‘Alpha’ assessment of me with predictable results.

    I say that her initial assessment of me was Alpha as we had a great first date and she asked me to take her home at the end of the date, unfortunately due to horrible logistics and the fact I had work the following day at 7am the only way I could have made it work at the time would have been to drive my car drunk and I decided against it.

    Then due to working away and not seeing her for almost 2 weeks but plenty of talking/texting unbeknown to me at the time my frame was being eroded bit by bit and she was starting to view me in a different light.

    The results were entirely predictable and if I’m honest devastating to my ego investment in her. I could not accept my fall from grace in her eyes and instead of walking away as I usually would in this situation I decided to try and turn the situation around as I perceived her as ‘a quality woman/ Unicorn ‘ who would be difficult to replace in the current SMP.

    I thought I could regain my Alpha status with her but the damage was already done.

    Never again will I accept anything less than desire sex.

    The irony that my ex oneitis that brought me here tried to do that to me is not lost on me I can assure you!
    At the time I was convinced I could turn it around and get what I needed from her but my supplicating respectful courtship of her killed the dynamic between us necessary for validational sex and it never recovered.

    The hardest part to accept was that it was all on me and my belief that you should treat the “special ones” differently, when in fact had I treated her just like any other girl that I date the results would have probably been much different.

    No regrets the red pill can be a bitter pill to swallow but it’s a price worth paying.

  14. Good stuff Rollo.

    Now I’m going to have a hot cup of coffee whilst rummaging my memory banks to see if I can identify any transactional sex after age 18.

    Palma, I don’t think it takes sheer volumes of Game to effectively deal with a woman in a relationship on your terms. It’s not a job, it’s an adventure. The key is internalization. Trp better informs game and the combination is absolutely lethal. Always.

    IAS, from talking to random men over decades, I tend to go with Rollo’s assessment. Most men won’t experience desire, and they won’t even notice the absence because they are distracted and unfocused on themselves. A woman is allowing access so that becomes the mental focus. Her frame. I always say that no woman can ” give me pussy/sex “. I do the choosing and the giving.

    Mindset is a powerful thing.

    What struck me in the OP is the idea that most guys won’t really know the women they choose for sex or relationships. She has things she’ll never share with you. Again, access blunts a man understanding what’s happening in this scenario. The ” getting laid ” thing isn’t what’s crucial. Going on dates and shit is secondary or tertiary. What’s the purpose and value in spending time with a woman outside of the bedroom? Is that just dead air?

  15. As you’re probably aware, there is a subset of players/PUAs who game on sugar baby forums, notably Seeking Arrangement (SA), because it’s the most popular one right now. I’ve done it myself. The bang rate for red pill community members who game on SA is around 70-90%.

    Based on my experience, it’s often very obvious when a girl is doing transactional sex with you, hoping that you’ll reciprocate with an “allowance.” If feels like they’re just going through the motions. There are also girls I banged who appeared to be doing it for validational reasons, based on their behavior. These were usually the ones who said they were using SA as a dating site because they are attracted to older, established men.

    However, there are some women who seemed to be emotionally smitten, engaging in passionate foreplay and boning with abandon, often not asking me to put on a condom. But then, just five minutes after we were finished, asking when the allowance was going to start.

    Is it possible for sex for a woman to be both transactional and validational at the same time?

  16. I’m with Palma.

    If you’re in a transactional sex situation, just pull and walk. Finishing off jarms you and her opinion of you. Yeah you lose some pocket change, but you leave with a lesson on frame. The best things in life are free, right?

    Anyways, although the opening post rests much on the thirsty transactional badness, there is opportunity aplenty when you’ve gone all in…when she sexes you because she cares to keep you so close, mate guard you…because without you her hypergamy imagines the world filled with lesser options.

    Starting any conversation here with “Hypergamy + feminism is bullshit!” is a nonstarter.

  17. When Betas get validational sex, they often don’t recognize it as such. More often they don’t recognize the contexts and situational circumstances that produced it in this woman at this time in this place. Betas often don’t even know there is a difference between transactional sex and validational sex. I for one was specifically taught that all sex that women have is transactional – women do not have sex merely for pleasure or fun. They have sex (give up sex) because they are always exchanging sex for something else they want. There is something abnormal about a woman who has sex for pleasure or fun or with a man she doesn’t know very well. Or so I was taught.

    The truth is that to men, there is transactional sex and then there is validational sex. TO WOMEN, outwardly, sex is always transactional. A woman always expects to “get something” in return for sex, even if that “something” is a little bit of beta comfort from the alpha guy who turned her out 5 times the night before. Even if that something is a next-day phone call or text, or taking her out for breakfast. To her, she gave him sex, so he needs to give her something as payment and tribute.

  18. Tom,

    IMO, Alpha sex is alpha sex and at the sexual moment she feels validated. The second it’s over, the negotiating starts.

    BTW guys, women are the worst, and I mean God awful terrible negotiators in almost every part of their lives. It doesn’t stop at her introitus.

    Ever watch your average woman buy a car let alone a house? Shudder.

    Keep that in mind next time that hottie plays bitch face.

  19. A curiosity that occurs right in the middle of the “hot monkey” phase of things:

    Suddenly as if switched-on the woman will try and find SOMEthing “wrong” with the man – even if it has to be fabricated, even if it is a trivial “defect” – but some kind of chink in the armor, e.g. try to get the man to be “vulnerable” or have “feelings.”

    To the man’s reasoning mind it seems she resents herself for being in such a state and wants to reject it; but even so it makes zero sense: it’s like keying your own brand-new roadster. This has happened on/with multiple occasions/women so seems “wired” into the female brain. It seems not a mere “shit test;” subtly rejecting it – especially if genuinely amused and not the least irritated – causes redoubling of her effort and sometimes irritation.

    It’s like creating waves where there is no wind.

    Have you observed this phenomenon?
    Why is this?
    Is she (unknowingly) trying to shift things “transactional”?

  20. “To the man’s reasoning mind it seems she resents herself for being in such a state and wants to reject it;”

    Women do resent the state in which they gave it all up, this observed if sticking around for coffee or breakfast. When playing harder Alpha Mofo game, splitting immediately post coitus, I’ve not stuck around long enough to see the withering of that desire.

    Read the recently published story of Tommy Lee and Pamela Anderson. Read her history and the continual swinging pendulum of desire reflected in multiple marriages and remarriages.

    There is no rationale for women’s desire, only that it emerges in estrus and is short lived. That is why a man’s presence must also be short lived. Hang around too long and the mystery of your life is now demystified and you are no different than the next fool.

    Women will also pine for that fleeting vulnerability that gave them so much pleasure. They will seek it wherever it is convenient and timely to estrus.

    A man seeking to replicate it will likely be cursed with familiarity.

    As for drinking, many women find alcohol useful to bring on the burn. I personally despise drunk women and drunk sex. If I were to drink as much as is necessary to abide the burn in the women I know, I would be a mess.

    Sobriety and my own health is far more valuable to me than notching a slobbering hot piece.

  21. JT

    Cultural influences. Religion. ASD. Plausable deniability she’s not doing a SNL because he overwhelmed her sensibilities.

    Insecurity is the feature of hypergamy. Shell look to the nearest best excuse for her feral behavior and stick with that.

  22. “Never again will I accept anything less than desire sex.”

    There you go. You get the sex you are willing to live with.

    Full stop.

    Rollo you should examine the effect of children on LTR dynamics. That in my experience has far more impact than any kind of commitment to monogamy.

  23. I’m about 5’9 and 19 yrs.

    In the last months I had some serious issues about my height.

    Do you think at 5’9 I’m in disadvantage on dating.

    Thanks Rollo

  24. Mau

    “Do you think at 5’9 I’m in disadvantage on dating.”

    Guys or girls?

  25. This article hit home for me I’m 32 and in a LTR with a woman who’s 29 and SMV is 2 points under however we have hit a point in the relationship when sex and especially good sex is rare and more like a transaction. Being the red pill aware male I am (got all 3 books) I want to know how to best deal with this issue and get back to the frame I had at the beginning of the relationship where things were hot and sexy all the time. We do have a young daughter so I did give her a whole year after child birth. I would hate to marry her if things stay like this cause I feel I will be going into something already broken.

  26. “for most married women sex is reward she uses in the operant conditioning of her husband.”

    psychology 101 – hypergamy and the roots of sexual selection in the female homo sapien sapien: explores the biological, evolutionary and cultural history of alpha fux beta bux beginning with the sexual selection process of females in ape family not hiding estrus and finishing with our tricky little unicorn princesses here in the 21st

    psychology 102 – hypergamy and the operant conditioning of beta male homo sapien sapien: explores manipulation techiniques of the female through every stage of the male life

    Grade 4-5 ideally, before suzie q can get her hooks into them. then the idea of beta male supplication will be so vile to them they won’t even consider it an option

    how many college level courses like this?

    a red pilled high school warrior near prestigious university should use his underage gf to entrap progressive perv prof and then blackmail him into offering courses like this

    this is war and there are no rules. may the best men win

  27. Word to the wise:

    When your wife openly says sex with you feels like rape, or says she feels like she’s being violated, or has to leap up after sex to retch into the toilet, or openly says she doesn’t like sex with you and doesn’t have to like it….

    Stick a fork in that marriage. It’s done. Kill that puppy, It’s dead, and it’s not ever coming back. End that marriage forthwith.

  28. “I am a humanities professor who teaches feminist theory, models feminist behavior for my students and my own children, and has achieved success in a male-dominated field” = fat disgusting pig

    “This writer has chosen to remain anonymous to protect everyone involved in this article.” = fat disgusting pig

    “When we have sex, I feel like I’m being violated.” The unwanted sex at times made me sick: Once I had to run straight from bed to the bathroom, where I retched into the toilet”

    this makes me happy because she is a cunt

  29. When a girl is in love with you, she is “lit up” often when around you, warm, sweet, spontaneous and she tests you.

    If you are so unfortunate as to be in a LTR where sex is transactional but the girl wants you for bucks or honeydos, then your girl will be cautious, cool, manipulative, and controlling. She will treat you like her best girlfriend and won’t be “lit up.”

  30. a red pilled high school warrior near prestigious university should use his underage gf to entrap progressive perv prof and then blackmail him into offering courses like this

    This is sick, twisted, perverted and BRILLIANT!

  31. ” But what if you lie next to that man every night, and prefer to sleep naked? Should he assume your body is perpetually available to him for sex? ”

    her: that was fun

    me: you’re dreaming

    her: so you didn’t finger me and fuck me while I was sleeping last night? I didn’t get up and go to the bathroom afterwards and have something besides pee come out of me?

    me: you’re crazy

    her: I wish you would do that more

    me: crazy bitch dreaming about being sexually assaulted in her wet dreams. cute, but not at all unusual

    her: why else would I sleep naked?

  32. @George Harris

    Don’t marry her.

    Learn about dread and start there. Yollo has already asked an important question.

  33. The biggest challenge was taking that monstrous truck sized pill and swallowing it. It took me years to accept and it hurt. It still does. Eventually, you do, because you don’t have a choice. Deveoping game in a marriage does not happen overnight either, but you do, because she didn’t have a choice. Nowadays, it’s almost full time amused mastery in the house. The biggest change in the dynamic was when I disconnected from transactional events entirely. Do it? Great. Don’t do it? Great. I’ve better things to do, which I do. The result is you carry yourself differently and send out a completely different vibe. The kids pick up on it too. Real event, two weeks ago: wife and I are heading through the mall to look at furniture. I stop by the chocolate vendor and a pretty 20 something is behind the counter. Right in front of wife I decide to pull a little day game. Nothing special, just to see if I can get a smile. Surprise surprise, the young one is engaged. I keep it up, escalate, and I don’t shy away: exclusively and for the sole purpose of letting the wife know I’ve options available. Pretty young thing decides to give me my purchase for free. I part with “I’m going to apply here so we can work together”. Wife brings it up 2 weeks later, all (fake) pissy the girl was flirting with me (not the other way around). Ha. Just like clockwork.

    Rollo, I can’t thank you and your readers enough. I don’t want to imagine what a shit life I would have had, had I not turned this around.

  34. From Rollos article:

    “Do we believe there is no painfully “bad sex,” coercion, or sexual assault in marriage? If we do recognize the prevalence of these things, why aren’t we talking about it?”

    A clumsy straw man set up by a Kristine McKinnon wanna be. McKinnon has been claiming all sex is rape for 30 years.

    Always forward, never retreat. There’s an endless supply of leftist legislative agendas for all occasions in their desk drawer.

  35. Catharine MacKinnon. U of Michigan law professor, has written articles arguing that all sex is rape and all marital sex is rape.

  36. what would happen if the meme crew took some time to work on hypergamy instead?

    could they crush their enemy even faster that way?

    will men more readily accept an international criminal conspiracy, or the fact that bitches be cheatin’?

    which is easier to understand, fractional reserve banking, or “bitches be cheatin'”?

    “bitches be cheatin’… ever wonder why?”

  37. @fleezer
    “a red pilled high school warrior near prestigious university should use his underage gf to entrap progressive perv prof and then blackmail him into offering courses like this”
    Laughed out loud on that one. Agree with gamer, that’s gold.

  38. I won’t ever go through this… I will never marry… Every women is Queen, And most of us are drones and worker bees… I wonder sometimes what if my gf is in a bad mood and sends me to the prison for nothing…

  39. Easy Escher.

    You’ve yet, no frame, no sexual history.

    You say you’ll never get married. O.k. no problems with that. Don’t use it as a crutch to justify your meager sex life, tho.

    You have time. Why so much unearned anger at 19? Leave that to the incels.

    Stick around, build frame, get laid.

  40. @Mau

    You wont lose points for that height. I’d dial back the pussy-ass approval-seeking though.

  41. @Escher

    Do they play European Rugby where you are?

    If so join the club

    Or another team sport.. hockey?

    Plus I mentioned lifting.

    What positive things are you going to do to improve your situation?

  42. One of your best, Rollo. Hits the nail on the head. With a Viking war hammer.

    Two thoughts –

    Somewhere in the comments not too too long ago, someone said that metoo may be part of a conscious effort by feminists and elites to counteract the MRM and Red Pill knowledge. One or two commenters scoffed. Well, now the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has listed numerous Red Pill and MRA sites, forums, and groups as “hate groups” and “male supremacists”. The action is getting press and is complementing the mainstream metoo movement, which has now progressed to this phase of the witch hunt: http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/01/nyta-m01.html – thus reinforcing the “sex she doesn’t really want = rape” zeitgeist.

    Second, I was fortunate enough to be the alpha to my gf/fiance/wife and experience the joy of validational sex in all kinds of fun and nasty ways. I got her best, so I’m thankful for that. Unfortunately, over time and children I sank into blue pill investment and drunk captain-hood, losing attraction and respect. It wasn’t until swallowing the red pill that I woke up to the pathetic state of our marriage and I told myself I will never have sex with her if it’s transactional (or duty). I don’t get upset and don’t much care. I have better things to do with my time if she’s not into it.

  43. “Betas often don’t even know there is a difference between transactional sex and validational sex. I for one was specifically taught that all sex that women have is transactional – women do not have sex merely for pleasure or fun. They have sex (give up sex) because they are always exchanging sex for something else they want. There is something abnormal about a woman who has sex for pleasure or fun or with a man she doesn’t know very well. Or so I was taught.”

    – thedeti

    Wow … this is what my own life experience has taught me and I never believed otherwise. But life experience will always scream louder than anything I read on the Internet, especially from a site I only just discovered. If you’re not in that upper 10%-20% of the population, I guess you may not know any other reality? Taking the red pill makes you aware, but can a member of the 80% become part of the 20%?

  44. palmasailor
    March 8, 2018 at 1:31 am

    You’re speaking of deep conversion

    I have called it bonding for as long as i can remember. Probably longer than the term “deep conversion” has been in existence.

  45. M Simon

    Evidently a majority of men don’t believe in a level of deep conversion at all. We had a semi discussion about it at trm once and the level of scoffing was deafening.

    That’s one reason I pointed to Rollo’s Donovan interview. The phrase ” ..trust you with her life ” was used, and Rollo riffed on it a little.

    Quite a few of the relationships in my immediate social circle have couples in it that have been together for years, but for all intents and purpose, they are virtually strangers. Some of the men are practically held at arm’s length from their women.

    And the men are perfectly content with that as long as they get a measure of sex – of whatever quality.

    How does one spend so much time with another person, and not really know who they are? In detail? And why?

  46. @blax LOL Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it 🙂

    But seriously, WSWS is actually principled, unlike the NY Times (Judith Miller anyone? Spiking the NSA domestic spying story till after Bush was re-elected?), irregardless if one agrees with socialism (I’m not, I just read a lot of different perspectives for context).

    Anyway, the commentary is incisive, and coming from a “left wing” website makes it all the more damning of the whole metoo charade.

  47. Rollo,

    Considering your study of the subject and experience, do you think it’s possible that most men are a healthy mix of alpha and beta, and that the natural norm of that mixture falls within a reasonable balance? I mean, is it possible that the majority of men are formed with an effective balance of both alpha and beta physiological drivers innately? If so, the true “bad boys” and true “nice guys” would exist at the extremes of the spectrum and would both be minorities while the majority would possess a beneficial mix of both. This theory would contradict the 80% beta 20% alpha model that currently seems to be accepted in the ‘sphere, in a physiological “natural” context. Maybe it is possible that the 80% – 20% phenomena we observe today is more influence day by a synthesized result of social conditioning (social engineering) and, more significantly, the result of power women enjoy via their almost exclusive power over birth control as well as modern comforts that allow far more leisure. I know this would also compete with the claim that primarily 20% of all men fertilized most women in the past. However, that claim, in my opinion, seems very questionable for a few reasons. First, humans were dispersed in smaller groups in the past which would disperse women among all men more homogeneously. Second, tracing actual leinage is next to impossible despite the BS ancestry.com et. al. is selling. Third, tying individuals to a specific ancestor (like Ghingas Kahn) is not possible due to the extremely complex DNA molecule and variability. These claims turn out to be most likely bullshit when you research the real science.

    Of course, such claims are very popular among men as we all would like to enjoy a Ghingas Kahn lifestyle and psychologically project ourselves into like roles.

    What do you think?

  48. NBTM, I think most men are Beta. Most men in any society are going to be Beta. Individual men can become Alpha (although for most men the effort required would probably be prohibitive), but overall most men are still going to be Beta. Whether or not this is healthy or unhealthy is largely irrelevant, this is the way it is.

    I know this would also compete with the claim that primarily 20% of all men fertilized most women in the past.

    Actually I think the evidence does sort of back this up. Its not quite this pronounced, but it would be close.

    humans were dispersed in smaller groups in the past which would disperse women among all men more homogeneously

    I don’t think that would have much of an effect on countering hypergamy. Young, fertile women would always be in short supply, even without polygamy. But polygamy was usual in these societies. It would have normally been limited to the tribal leader and maybe his lieutenant, but even such limited polygamy would cause a pronounced shortage of eligible young women.

  49. ” . . . in all essentials the savage and the child of civilization are identical. I dare say that the highly civilized lady reading this will smile at an old fool of a hunter’s simplicity when she thinks of her black bead-bedecked sister; and so will the superfine cultured idler scientifically eating a dinner at his club, the cost of which would keep a starving family for a week. And yet, my dear young lady, what are those pretty things round your own neck?—they have a strong family resemblance, especially when you wear that very low dress, to the savage woman’s beads. Your habit of turning round and round to the sound of horns and tom-toms, your fondness for pigments and powders, the way in which you love to subjugate yourself to the rich warrior who has captured you in marriage, and the quickness with which your taste in feathered head-dresses varies—all these things suggest touches of kinship; and you remember that in the fundamental principles of your nature you are quite identical.”

    Allan Quatermain – 1887

  50. “. . . do you think it’s possible that most men are a healthy mix of alpha and beta, and that the natural norm of that mixture falls within a reasonable balance?”

    Apology NBTM (no Rollo here) – but the question is intriguing. Case in point: the commanding general at work who is subservient at home would suggest a mix in that man and what is expressed is contextual/situational: alpha in the field; beta at home.

    But as a mindset don’t think there can be a mix like that.

    If observe closely the military, will find in the most senior leadership positions very beta men: it is a team sport, authority over others is not earned but given from on high, and these can exhibit very obsequious behavior to their own bosses. These can actually be quite fearful men: put in a tough position that requires backbone most often these will fold. These often got where they are in the ranks (in peacetime) by subordinating themselves to the rules and those over them who do the selecting for promotion. By contrast alpha man is often expelled/passed over (at least in peacetime) because he tends to NOT subordinate himself or be involved in a system requiring obedience to another; yet under desperate circumstance he comes to the fore, being the only man in the room who, not needing permission (as he is his own mental point of origin), knows what to do.

    I suspect very often the alpha does not even know he is “alpha.” He just is himself; he does what he does.

  51. As a term “Validation Sex” is a fail. Try a polite version of Cumdumpster

  52. “These often got where they are in the ranks (in peacetime) by subordinating themselves to the rules and those over them who do the selecting for promotion. By contrast alpha man is often expelled/passed over (at least in peacetime) because he tends to NOT subordinate himself or be involved in a system requiring obedience to another”

    “That’s really the great mystery about bureaucracies. Why is it so often that the best people are stuck in the middle and the people who are running things—the leaders—are the mediocrities? Because excellence isn’t usually what gets you up the greasy pole. What gets you up is a talent for maneuvering. Kissing up to the people above you, kicking down to the people below you. Pleasing your teachers, pleasing your superiors, picking a powerful mentor and riding his coattails until it’s time to stab him in the back. Jumping through hoops. Getting along by going along. Being whatever other people want you to be, so that it finally comes to seem that, like the manager of the Central Station, you have nothing inside you at all. Not taking stupid risks like trying to change how things are done or question why they’re done. Just keeping the routine going.”

    https://theamericanscholar.org/solitude-and-leadership/

  53. j that’s the “Peter Principle” in action.

    A woman who divorces her decent husband because she’s unhappy and bored is bad. A woman who refuses to ever have sex with her decent husband because she’s bored is also bad. But that terrible Vox article Rollo links shows us something much worse. A woman who willingly acquiesces to her husband to keep him happy and stop him divorcing her, and then later complains in a national publication that every acquiescence was a an act of rape which left her dead inside.

    “Submitting to sex with a man who knew it was unwanted, who knew I felt deep pain at our lack
    of emotional connection, and who knew — who had been clearly told — that it felt like a violation, broke something in me. Knowing that he could still enjoy and feel emotionally fulfilled by that unwanted sex shattered my idea of our marriage. I felt like a sex doll. I felt unselfed.”

    Unless we assume her ex husband is a vicious brute (which is unlikely) she must not have “clearly told him” how traumatic this transactional sex was to her. In all probability she just gave him vague hints.

  54. rugby11
    March 8, 2018 at 10:52 pm

    “The (Un)Scientific Method” is as unscientific as it gets. As noted in the comments to the article.

  55. I feel so sorry for all those Beta’s out there who have never had hot, wild validational se It’s all i’ve ever known. I’d never really thought about that concept for the past 20+ years when i was banging lots of hotties usually much younger than me, but rarely did i fully commit to any of them, or them to me. So it was all validational sex. Even now that i’m in a bit of a pussy slump i’d still rather be single and alone than married to some harpy that didn’t want to fuck me (if i still had passion for her, of course). Nothing worse than wanting a woman who doesn’t want you. If women truly are like this (and i believe they most likely are) then it’s really hard not to look at them all as whores and have very little or no respect to the “fairer sex” at all. And the concept of “rape” re transactional sex is a fucking joke! If anyone is being “raped” it’s all those poor old pussy starved Beta’s. Let’s see how the wymmyn respond if enough of them Beta’s wake the fuck up and down tools, orbiting and pussy begging… But i doubt this will happen in my lifetime. There’s just too many hungry males (not men) out starving for pussy…

    Maybe i’ll find a unicorn and prove this wrong, but i’m not going to hold my breath…

  56. Blaximus
    March 8, 2018 at 1:36 pm

    How does one spend so much time with another person, and not really know who they are? In detail? And why?

    I am often considered the least social of the people at any gathering. And yet I can figure it out.

    It is possible that my ineptness is in fact a gift. I have fewer assumptions.

    In any case it is a wonder.

  57. From the article

    1) “way of training me to see my needs — emotional connection and communication — as excessive”

    It’s because those needs can not be articulated, and yet those needs change constantly.

    2) And this gem of female logic

    “I am a humanities professor who teaches feminist theory, models feminist behavior for my students and my own children, and has achieved success in a male-dominated field.”

    Male dominated field? Right.

    3) But more proof that game works/and how they view it.

    “It gives a man years to accomplish the emotional manipulation that men on dates must squeeze into an evening. ”

    —–

    I’m still skeptical of this world view overall, and accepting lots of these premises ignores common experience and creates unrealistic expectations, just to service a theory that in practical terms means tight rope LTRs, mgtow, or inveterate players.

  58. Re: mixing Alpha and Beta

    Try it at your own peril. Try plugging yourself back into the matrix while you’re at it too. This talk happens more than I’d expect at TRM. Yet I’m baffled that I’m baffled someone who hangs out a lot here, would suggest it. Is there no empirical RP truth that could convince you not to fuck with the script?

    An ounce of Beta in a gallon of Alpha tastes more like Alpha than Beta. She hates Beta. Full stop.

    I’m the poster boy why not to try mixing it too. It’s a lot of work clawing your way out and she’ll fight you all the way, your Beta friends will abandon you. You have to start over.

    Alpha is all upside. Beta is slavery.

    It’s your choice.

  59. Oops.

    An ounce of Beta in a gallon of Alpha tastes more like Beta than Alpha. She hates Beta.

    I fixed it for me.

  60. @Rollo

    Interesting vox article, the husband doesn’t sound beta from the limited details they provide and has more of an idgaf attitude.

    I know the wife identifies as a feminist and there’s a lot of hamstering but what are your thoughts on this part:

    “At home, having tried without success the therapist-prescribed exercises for restoring emotional connection — check-ins about feelings, “nonsexual” touch — my husband lobbied for his own solution: “The thing you need is really complicated and difficult, and it’s not something I can do. But the thing I need is easy and quick. Why can’t you just give me the thing I need?”

    Especially the last sentence, does this come from a place of insecurity on her part where he is too much on the alpha end and there is not enough comfort? Kind of going through this in an LTR where every once in a while the gf will say she just needs to be reassured by me that I am still committed and not losing interest, needs more “emotional support”.

    If you could comment on that or point me to past essay’s that discuss this in depth that would be great.

  61. Bromeo

    “every once in a while the gf will say she just needs to be reassured by me that I am still committed and not losing interest”

    To her: then act like like someone who I’d find interesting and would want to commit to.

    Then slap that ass…

  62. “At no time should the sniper have to fire on someone’s command. He should be given clearance to fire and then he and he alone should decide exactly when.”

    clearance to fire/mpo is granted to all men at birth – before even, like when we’re stealing our momma’s nutrients right out of her bloodstream

    they live to give. we dishonor their nature by not taking

  63. I feel so sorry for all those Beta’s out there who have never had hot, wild validational se It’s all i’ve ever known.

    On the other hand, it’s also true that most women will never know what it’s like to be committed to by a man they can look up to.

  64. “. . . having tried without success the therapist-prescribed exercises for restoring emotional connection — check-ins about feelings, “nonsexual” touch . . .”

    Jeeezus.

    ““The thing you need is really complicated and difficult, and it’s not something I can do. But the thing I need is easy and quick. Why can’t you just give me the thing I need?”

    Especially the last sentence, does this come from a place of insecurity on her part where he is too much on the alpha end and there is not enough comfort?”

    The last sentence comes from a pathetic place of desperate begging on his part. It is the reason she now has to go to the bathroom and retch at the mere thought of his touch, or perhaps the mere thought of his existence.

    If you think this is a sign of his being too alpha, you need to go directly to The Best of Year One. Do not pass Enthusiastic Consent. Do not collect a lay until you get your head straight and are ready to roll again.

  65. they live to give. we dishonor their nature by not taking

    that’s exactly what women say about men

  66. But do not point out that women have a nature as well, something they want, and that their nature is inextricably linked to the nature of men.

    ‘Cause that really pisses them off.

  67. Thinking more about it, my question has become “What is the cause (or are the causes) of this apparent 80% beta 20% alpha distribution?”

    I agree, behaviorally what we see here today is an 80% beta -20% distribution. But why? And more importantly what really is it beneath the surface? What are we really observing and through what lens? If 80% beta -20% is the result of innate physiological phenomena, then where did all these betas come from? From whom did they descend? If 20% of males in the past were providing most of the seed and they were alpha, then why aren’t we observing mostly alpha males today, and certainly not the reverse? How did Ghingas Kahn sire so many beta sissy males? Based on the current hypothesis, women’s valadational side of hypergamy and the majority of seed being alpha, wouldnt we have mostly selected out beta males from reproducing? There is no other logical consideration in this context.

    Our assumptions and this model concerning alpha and beta considered within the context of what we understand about evolutionary phenomena rules out the possibility that the current beta majority could have been formed hereditarily. This strongly infers that the current beta prevalence is significantly the result of social conditioning. What other influence is there? I do agree that beta is in fact and can be the result of social conditioning. However, this consideration (that its current prevalence is due to social conditioning) is also very questionable. It is very questionable because alpha (the other side of the hypergamy coin) is primarily defined by the alphas natural tendency to think for himself, establish and maintain his own frame and not be influenced by the social conditioning that would make him beta; the very essence of alpha being established by an immunity from the beta tendency to lose frame, etc.

    So….where did this 80% majority of betas come from?

  68. Evolution is not a striving for perfection.
    Alphas are not perfect.

    But, to the extent that alpha is hereditary, I note that there was a mass culling of wolves in the 20th century, followed by a period of breeding like rabbits.

  69. Alpha and beta are mindsets. I get that. But, mindset is established by innate physiological constitution and social influences. There aren’t any others discussed with any significance. Perhaps there are others such as what is consumed and injested, smoked, or exposed to from the physical environment.

    So, the question remains how did the beta majority form?

  70. @ kfg

    Word. Don’t fuck with nature.

    “But in fact, Yellowstone was not preserved. On the contrary, it was altered beyond repair in a matter of years. By 1934, the Park Service acknowledged that whitetail deer, cougar, lynx, wolf, and possibly wolverine and fisher are gone from the Yellowstone.

    What they didn’t say was that the Park Service was solely responsible for the disappearances. Park rangers had been shooting the animals for decades, even though that was illegal since the Lacey Act of 1894. But they thought they knew best.”

    http://www.independent.org/events/transcript.asp?id=111

  71. Just how many world’s fastest 100 meter dashers do you think there are at any one time?

    Out of a pile of uncut diamonds, how many do you suppose are “perfect?”

  72. No implication that eveloution seeks “perfection” here. “Perfection” is relative to who is evaluating and why. It is not a real phenomena, it is only a subjective psychological experience of real phenomena.

    Evolutionary adaptation does not appear to be willful. It seems to occur more by opportunity rather than individual intent. Although individuals do alter behavior based on perceived rewards as well as perceived threats, those who evolve do so by innately possessing traits that are advantageous in new conditions. Unless….there exists some universal orchestration possiblely found within individuals that enables (but doesn’t guarantee) individual change in response to changing conditions.

  73. “How did Ghingas Kahn sire so many beta sissy males?”
    Great analysis/question – you come up with the best NBTM

    Seems genetics account for at best 50% how we end up – even with identical genetics no guarantee of a trait presenting/disease manifesting:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4623659/

    Current thought is “okay, so genes confer a vulnerability but the rest is environment.” Something additional is needed to “trigger” the disease e.g. good soil, water effect on a seed analogy. And genes themselves have heritability factors e.g. blue eyes being “recessive.” And no telling what genetics mom is bringing. Heck – maybe it’s all mom.

    Could be that put that soup altogether, and in actual global impact, evolutionary biology/psychology is selecting OUT the alpha. Even though evolution does not have an objective, consider on the whole: betas are more suitable for a civilization, as having their mental point of origin external to themselves, these are much easier to tame/control. They keep the rules. They play nice. They want to please. Betas are the workers in the bee colony. But they can’t reproduce.

  74. @KFG

    “The last sentence comes from a pathetic place of desperate begging on his part. It is the reason she now has to go to the bathroom and retch at the mere thought of his touch, or perhaps the mere thought of his existence.”

    Ah my bad, I misread that thinking she ha stated that not him.

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