You cannot negotiate genuine desire.
This is one of my best known quotes because it resonates with so many men. There was a time in the early 2000s when I was doing peer counseling for men – most of whom were at least a decade my senior – as part of my undergraduate study and one consistent theme I got from almost all of them was how their marriages (or LTRs) had been so much more sexually satisfying when they were dating their wives or before they’d committed to some kind of exclusivity. That’s always the crux of it for guys. They mistakenly believed that the hot monkey sex they were having with their women prior to “doing the right thing” and getting married or committed was something that would be characteristic of their quality woman into a long term relationship with them.
Why was this the case for guys? I can remember coming up with this quote as part of the advice I was giving while working for one of these men. He, like many of the other guys, had gotten to the point that he would do almost anything to get back to that real desire that convinced him to commit to his wife in the first place. And, like many of these guys, he’d convinced his wife to go to marriage counseling in order to find out what exactly it was that he needed to do to “get her to come around” to wanting to bang him. Nothing was working for him. Even after his sessions he was still either sexless or his wife only begrudgingly would have lackluster ‘starfish’ sex with him. We called that a ‘grudge fuck’ back then.
As a student of behavioral psychology my interest was (still is) in what motivates or incentivizes behavior in people (sometimes animals). What was it that inspires genuine desire as opposed to behavior that still has a purpose, but was more motivated by future outcome. You can make a case that genuine desire is also motivated by a perceived outcome, but in this instance I’m making a distinction between a natural, unsolicited desire as opposed to an incentive based on a preconceived outcome – if all goes according to plan.
This guy broke down in tears with me on at least two occasions. He just couldn’t understand why what was supposed to work (open communication, rational discourse and honest negotiation) wasn’t getting her to “come around” to having sex with him. It was then I thought, you cannot negotiate genuine desire. Either a woman wants to fuck you or she doesn’t. There are definitely ways to prompt that genuine desire – most of which are behavioral and conditional – but as has been stated many times in the ‘sphere, attraction is not a choice. The key word there is choice. Few men would ‘choose’ to be attracted by an obese woman and in many ways this choice dynamic is why women promoting the ‘body acceptance’ narrative have a tough time of it. For all the nonsense about beauty being a social construct, arousal for men is very much rooted in evolved biology. Men can’t choose to get an erection for a woman they’re simply not aroused by.
The same holds true for women, but the conditions are different. Women can and do have sex for reasons other than genuine desire. Negotiated desire really isn’t desire at all, but women have readily used sexual access to achieve those perceived outcomes I mentioned above here. Negotiated desire only ever leads to obligated compliance. A talented hooker or stripper may be very convincing in her act that she’s really into having sex with a man, but the negotiation that takes place before the act can never make a woman want to have sex with her client. Attraction is not a choice, but really, arousal is not a choice either.
I am presently about half way through my read of Dr. Martie Haselton’s new book Hormonal. I was really anticipating this book’s release, and I had intended to do my first-ever book review of it here, but as I read through I’ve decided not to. I still highly recommend reading it. As you might guess it’s chock full of stats and research confirmation of so much of what I write here that I want to put it at the top of the required Rational Male reading list. I’ve been referencing Dr. Haselton’s (and her colleagues) work since I began this blog, but the delivery of the information was disappointing, and in a lot of instances, very immature and sophomoric. It’s written almost as an apologetic to feminists for having to kill a lot of sacred feminist social convention cows. I feel as if she’s writing ‘down’ to the women who she’ll inevitably market this book to, but, if you can get past her constant attempts to legitimize her feminist credentials, the information is absolute gold.
One aspect of female sexual dynamics that Haselton and her team detail quite a bit is the idea of an Estrus state in human females. I’m not sure how well appreciated this research is in the manosphere, which is one reason I included it in Positive Masculinity, but this concept is really integral to how we define Hypergamy. As most of my readers know, Hypergamy – women’s dualistic sexual strategy (and really life strategy) – is much more than a tendency of a woman to ‘marry up’. In Hormonal the ideas of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks really solidify with the research.
However, as useful as it is as a catchy euphemism Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks could better be described as Alpha Seed and Beta Need. In a woman’s peak ovulatory phase of her menstrual cycle she enters an estrus state and becomes subject to behaviors that can only be defined as a pretext of seeking Alpha seed. In other words, nature and Hypergamy are very practical in maximizing the chances that a woman may get pregnant with the best available genetic specimen. Granted, the true outcome of all of that is subject to environment and a woman’s personal conditions, but the practicality of it remains the same as it has for 100,000 years. It’s also important to keep in mind that a woman’s behaviors, strategies, rationales and her own interpretation of all of them in those various times and conditions are also a part of the overall latent purpose of a woman consolidating on the best Alpha Seed and Beta to supply her needs.
While women are subject to an estrus state they still require the second half of Hypergamy – the Beta need for security, provisioning, protection, comfort and at least the sharing of parental investment responsibilities for any offspring. Estrus in women is concealed, meaning it is (or used to be) nearly, but not totally undetectable in women. There are in fact various ways men evolved to intuitively determine whether a woman is in an estrus state of fertility; most of these today are socially shamed in men so as to further confuse them and advantage women, but that’s a topic for another essay. A concealed estrus aids women in optimizing both Alpha Seed and Beta Need and it’s likely that much of what accounts for women’s sexual strategy is the result of this concealment.
Now, a lot has been written by myself and others about the impact of meeting a woman’s Beta Need aspect of Hypergamy being served by the state and/or direct or indirect transfers of resources from men to women. Most of my readers are well aware of how this side of Hypergamy has been progressively accommodated for over the past fifty years. In spite of this it’s important to remember that this accommodation of provisioning needs doesn’t eliminate the deeper needs that this side of Hypergamy engenders in women. It may be true that women have never been better provided for in history as far as money and opportunities go, but women still look for emotional security, protection, dominance and comfort in men as part of their innate mental firmware.
As a result of Hypergamy and this concealed estrus state women have been put into a condition of evaluating sex in different aspects today.
When women look for that Alpha Seed in their peak ovulatory (proliferative) phase, the sex they seek is a desired sex with a man who meets evolutionary criteria. He’s the ‘hawt’ guy, or the man who leaves a woman with an perception of danger or excitement. A lot of men who don’t meet this criteria have a tendency to over-exaggerate this type of man as the ‘Alpha Chad’ and make a ridiculous parody of him as an ego protection mechanism for themselves. Let me state for the record here that every aspect and adjective that this type of guy embodies is mitigated by conditions and contexts. It is just as likely that this conventionally masculine dominant guy is only so according to his most immediate social situation. So spare me the “Chad Thundercock” anxieties.
The sex that women give “enthusiastic consent” for is validational for them. The easy assessment here is that women have a genuine desire to mate with conventionally masculine men who look and act the part – yes, behavioral congruency is vital. If you follow the research women consciously and unconsciously will actively put themselves into environments where the likelihood of their meeting a dominant masculine man who most closely matched that masculine ideal when they are in estrus. They openly and discreetly look of arousal cue from men who best embody what can only be described as Alpha Seed.
I should also add that women in “satisfying relationships” (meaning LTRs where a woman is still very hot for her husband/boyfriend) report an increase in sexual desire (proceptivity) for that guy during this phase. A lot of guys mistakenly think ANY woman will want to seek out extra-pair mating (cheating) opportunities when they’re in estrus. This is only true if a woman isn’t into her current man.
I don’t want to get too lost in the descriptions here. Rather, I want to focus on the associative feelings women get in and after having sex with that Alpha man during estrus. I would argue that Alpha Widows are made in the estrus phase. This is the sex women want to have and are enthusiastic in both the hunt and the act itself. This is largely (presumedly) the sex that men have with their wives-to-be before they marry. It’s this validational sex, the sex that women fantasize about, that men and women want to get back to once they are committed to each other monogamously but now have a dead bedroom. This sex validates a woman’s ego in that it proves to herself that a man of this SMV caliber would want to pin her to the bed and have marathon sex with her. Remember, the latent purpose of this sex, on this side of Hypergamy, is to access the sperm from men with high reproductive value as defined by what our evolved nature predisposes women to be aroused by. Validational sex is sex by choice and genuine desire, and is satisfying on both a psychological level and an evolutionary level.
One of the benefits of a concealed estrus is that it allows women a few luxuries. One of these was the ability to confuse men of their paternity. Today this confusion is little more difficult because we’ve got DNA figured out well enough to make accurate assessments, but in our evolutionary past it was important to trick cuckolded fathers into second guessing whether a child was his or not before he killed it and impregnated a woman on his own (this is also why men evolved mate guarding behaviors).
The other advantage of concealed estrus was essentially prostitution. Now, to pretty this up a bit, lets say that women who were sexual with men outside of their fertility window found that sex could be leveraged with non-Alpha men (men they didn’t want to have children with) to encourage them to help with a lot of the chores more Alpha men were less willing (but not entirely unwilling) to do. Enter transactional sex.
As mentioned, the most overt form of transactional sex is prostitution, but it’s impolite to call every woman a whore. In fact it’s impolite to even imply a woman may be having sex for other reasons than validational sex. Today women are contemplating whether or not transactional sex is itself rape since it technically meets the definition of rape (sex women don’t want to have). I discussed this “grey area sex” recently in another essay, but it’s interesting to see women wrestle with transactional sex in an era where the Future is Female and women ought to only have the (validational) sex they want to enthusiastically have.
For most men (i.e the 80% Beta men) transactional sex is where the rubber meets the road. In fact, I’d argue that for most Beta men transactional sex is the only definition of sex they ever really know. That’s kind of sad to think about, but most men never really experience the unfettered feral lust of a woman they’ve chosen to spend the rest of their lives with. I got into this in Saving the Best and Hats Off to the Bull, but I think it’s important for the average man today to acknowledge that it’s highly likely that their wives have shared parts of themselves with, and have lost all inhibitions with, men in their sexual pasts they may never know anything about. That’s a cold bucket of reality a lot of men who unplug from all this have to confront.
Marriage today is almost entirely predicated on on the transactional sex side of Hypergamy. I’m not saying it has to be, nor am I saying it always is, but I’m fairly comfortable in speculating that for most married women sex is reward she uses in the operant conditioning of her husband. And the very fact that this is effective with most husbands throws the power dynamic and Frame of the relationship firmly over to the wife. This has the effect of disqualifying that man from ever (or very rarely) being a candidate for validational sex within that marriage. And this too is another aspect of the transactional sex dynamic that modern feminists are contemplating today – if a woman doesn’t want to have sex with her husband, but does anyway, is it rape? But again, NAMALT, not all marriages are like this or have to be like this. I would also argue that a confident man whom a woman admires, who she recognizes as being above her SMV even if slightly and who has internalized Red Pill awareness within that marriage needn’t be doomed to transactional “duty” sex in his marriage.
And so now we come full circle to the men I was counseling back in the day. Because all they’d ever known was transactional sex their deductive male brains attempted to solve their “sex problem” in the most logistical and pragmatic way – negotiate with her. If all sex ever is for a guy is a transaction – a quid pro quo – then it follows he’ll try to find the best way to ‘pay’ for his wife’s sexual access. Hunter Drew and I were recently discussing a man who Dean Abbot has been counseling and one thing we’ve all seen a lot of from young and old Blue Pill Beta men is this logical tendency for them to want to ‘sacrifice their way to happiness with their wives’. It’s as if the more they sacrifice the more they pay for that intimacy they seek, but what they never get is that this only buries their sex lives that much more.
One amazing turn around a lot of married and single Red Pill guys experience when they unplug is the attention they receive from women when they switch from a transactional disposition to a validational disposition with regard to sex. When a man unplugs and cuts himself away from his Blue Pill conditioning one change he makes is a shift from viewing sex as transactional to validational. In the beginning, when men are first learning Game and becoming more Red Pill aware about the nature of women they really don’t recognize this shift in attitude towards sex. When I say men need to make themselves the “prize” with regards to sex and their attention what happens is they go from the “how can I pay for sex to qualify for it with a woman” to “women will recognize that I represent and opportunity for validational sex”.
The Blue Pill conditions men to base their understanding of sex on a transactional paradigm. It’s all scarcity, and luck or providence that a woman might want to fuck them. This is why women get aggravated by the presumption that men might feel they are ‘owed sex‘ in exchange for what they do for them. And why wouldn’t men feel that way? They’ve been conditioned for half a life to believe that they should follow the old social contract and become a man with a lot to offer a woman, a wife. This is the transactional paradigm; I build my life to better accommodate a woman and she reciprocates with sex. Women know this too, so all pretenses of indignation about are complete bullshit. What upsets women is that a Beta man would feel entitled to her sexuality for having accommodated her. Alpha men are entitled to it, accommodations be damned, because he’s the man they want to have sex with.
[…] Transactional vs. Validational Sex […]
It’s done from their
Agreed completely with the above. What is missing is an explicit statement that for non-Alpha men (85+% by my reckoning), NO commitment to them by a woman will EVER be held up by the woman, not in spirit, and probably not by letter, either. That means that no marriage or other relationship-type agreement (legal or otherwise) with a woman can be entered into with any expectation of it having been a wise idea. Thus, any man that would want what he (wrongly) thinks a marriage would give him, should 100% avoid them like the plague. Call girls, ONS, some STRs… Read more »
a woman they’ve chosen to spend the rest of their lives with.
It should be “a man she has chosen to spend the rest of her life with.”
If she doesn’t have ONE-itis – reinforced by Game – it is not going to work.
Great piece Rollo. I have very recently experienced the validational sex from a 25-year old Asian girl. Because I had a ‘good body’ and it was her last day in the country before flying back home, it translated to her mouth on my junk in backseat of my car in less than 15 mins of us meeting. Which includes the drive from the cafe to nearby business center parking lot. Sparing the details the sex was pretty bad. As a recovering beta the concept of a fine cute ass bending over for my taking was too much. And nut busting… Read more »
one thing we’ve all seen a lot of from young and old Blue Pill Beta men is this logical tendency for them to want to ‘sacrifice their way to happiness with their wives’. It’s as if the more they sacrifice the more they pay for that intimacy they seek, but what they never get is that this only buries their sex lives that much more. ~Rollo Tomassi ( @Rollo Tomassi @Rollo Tomassi on Twitter) from his “THE RATIONAL MALE” post “TRANSACTIONAL VS. VALIDATIONAL SEX” which helps men become the men that physically fit, super attractive true Christian women want to… Read more »
Rollo, Hit this out of the park: “I think it’s important for the average man today to acknowledge that it’s highly likely that their wives have shared parts of themselves with, and have lost all inhibitions with, men in their sexual pasts they may never know anything about. That’s a cold bucket of reality a lot of men who unplug from all this have to confront.” The above is a dammmm freezing cold bucket of water when you think about it. This to me is the hardest part of unplugging for a man awakened while married. The truth shall set… Read more »
There are some things men need to learn and live by. The first is that almost all women are whores. You either pay the Alpha Fucks/ Alpha Seed method by using the currency of sexual charm(GAME) or you pay using the Beta Bucks/eta Need method by using the currency of provisioning and protecting. Most men use both, but women in this day and age especially in the West and particularly in the USA strongly prefer the Sexual Charm currency. The next thing to remember is that women’s romantic love is the lowest form of adult love their is. Obsolete Biological… Read more »
Your comments and in particular:
“The first is that almost all women are whores ” is evidence of the potent misogony widespread in society.
With those prevaling thoughts, your behaviour will reflect that you do not merit a relationship that you seek. You are prejudiced in the most vitriolic manner.
I have experienced validational sex several times in my lifetime so I think I was fortunate. Most of the sex I have experienced has been transactional of one form or another both in marriage and out of marriage. Interestingly enough in retrospect, I “knew” it was transactional in nature and often involved alcohol on her part. I just sensed a tiny bit of disgust but plowed through anyway. Being able to read body language and physical tells kinda cued me in and in most cases, I felt a little disappointment both during and after. But I gotta tell ya, I… Read more »
Validational sex versus transactional sex…what a world of difference. The single best story of validational sex for me comes from over 35 years ago. I was the ‘bull” for a very hot 20 year-old who had a boyfriend. Once I was warming her up and fingering her and she said that she was ovulating and perhaps it wasn’t a good idea….I told her “you have no idea how hot that makes me.” I had no sooner said that when her pussy literally gushed. One of the single best fucks of my life ever. Later on, she would tell me that… Read more »
The next thing to remember is that women’s romantic love is the lowest form of adult love their is.
You teach them how to bond. If you do it right they can’t get enough. For bonding to work she has to surrender to you. A lost art. Still. It can be taught. At least a woman with ONE-itis can be taught how.
The most enlightening thing I’ve ever done since learning game …is to withhold sex if the girl was acting out…
The freeze out is a powerful tool along with dread game to keep the sex validational.
@Rollo: beyond the 20/80 split (or 10/90 or whatever), I think that the “majority” betas do get occasionally validational sex in some specific contexts. You even start this post with those examples – those guys that in the marriage are sexless or nearly so, did get validational sex before getting married. They probably weren’t in the 20% even back then, but they still got a “taste” for it. This might be nitpicking but I think it is important – I wouldn’t say that the 80% only know transactional sex. There will be many betas that only know it all their… Read more »
If the only type of sex you can get from a woman/women is transactional in nature, then the most pragmatic solution would be to use the services of call girls, at least they will be hotter! ( and probably less risky than some CC rider that barebacks Alphas). Strangely enough even my marriage to my ex BPD Italian Baby momma, was littered with validational sex. She was a multi millionaire in her own right, semi nude calendar girl with a “fan page” where she would receive hundreds of messages from thirsty men who had seen her calendar “work”. She had… Read more »
Good stuff Rollo. Now I’m going to have a hot cup of coffee whilst rummaging my memory banks to see if I can identify any transactional sex after age 18. Palma, I don’t think it takes sheer volumes of Game to effectively deal with a woman in a relationship on your terms. It’s not a job, it’s an adventure. The key is internalization. Trp better informs game and the combination is absolutely lethal. Always. IAS, from talking to random men over decades, I tend to go with Rollo’s assessment. Most men won’t experience desire, and they won’t even notice the… Read more »
As you’re probably aware, there is a subset of players/PUAs who game on sugar baby forums, notably Seeking Arrangement (SA), because it’s the most popular one right now. I’ve done it myself. The bang rate for red pill community members who game on SA is around 70-90%. Based on my experience, it’s often very obvious when a girl is doing transactional sex with you, hoping that you’ll reciprocate with an “allowance.” If feels like they’re just going through the motions. There are also girls I banged who appeared to be doing it for validational reasons, based on their behavior. These… Read more »
I’m with Palma. If you’re in a transactional sex situation, just pull and walk. Finishing off jarms you and her opinion of you. Yeah you lose some pocket change, but you leave with a lesson on frame. The best things in life are free, right? Anyways, although the opening post rests much on the thirsty transactional badness, there is opportunity aplenty when you’ve gone all in…when she sexes you because she cares to keep you so close, mate guard you…because without you her hypergamy imagines the world filled with lesser options. Starting any conversation here with “Hypergamy + feminism is… Read more »
When Betas get validational sex, they often don’t recognize it as such. More often they don’t recognize the contexts and situational circumstances that produced it in this woman at this time in this place. Betas often don’t even know there is a difference between transactional sex and validational sex. I for one was specifically taught that all sex that women have is transactional – women do not have sex merely for pleasure or fun. They have sex (give up sex) because they are always exchanging sex for something else they want. There is something abnormal about a woman who has… Read more »
IMO, Alpha sex is alpha sex and at the sexual moment she feels validated. The second it’s over, the negotiating starts.
BTW guys, women are the worst, and I mean God awful terrible negotiators in almost every part of their lives. It doesn’t stop at her introitus.
Ever watch your average woman buy a car let alone a house? Shudder.
Keep that in mind next time that hottie plays bitch face.
A curiosity that occurs right in the middle of the “hot monkey” phase of things: Suddenly as if switched-on the woman will try and find SOMEthing “wrong” with the man – even if it has to be fabricated, even if it is a trivial “defect” – but some kind of chink in the armor, e.g. try to get the man to be “vulnerable” or have “feelings.” To the man’s reasoning mind it seems she resents herself for being in such a state and wants to reject it; but even so it makes zero sense: it’s like keying your own brand-new… Read more »
Has it to do with “Frame” perhaps.
“To the man’s reasoning mind it seems she resents herself for being in such a state and wants to reject it;” Women do resent the state in which they gave it all up, this observed if sticking around for coffee or breakfast. When playing harder Alpha Mofo game, splitting immediately post coitus, I’ve not stuck around long enough to see the withering of that desire. Read the recently published story of Tommy Lee and Pamela Anderson. Read her history and the continual swinging pendulum of desire reflected in multiple marriages and remarriages. There is no rationale for women’s desire, only… Read more »
Cultural influences. Religion. ASD. Plausable deniability she’s not doing a SNL because he overwhelmed her sensibilities.
Insecurity is the feature of hypergamy. Shell look to the nearest best excuse for her feral behavior and stick with that.
Everyone should check out Rollo’s interview with Donovan Sharpe.
“Never again will I accept anything less than desire sex.”
There you go. You get the sex you are willing to live with.
Rollo you should examine the effect of children on LTR dynamics. That in my experience has far more impact than any kind of commitment to monogamy.
Man, I hate being right all the time:
@Rollo: On the Vox article….
Couldn’t even finish it – Jeezusss!!!😅
I’m about 5’9 and 19 yrs.
In the last months I had some serious issues about my height.
Do you think at 5’9 I’m in disadvantage on dating.
“Do you think at 5’9 I’m in disadvantage on dating.”
Guys or girls?
This article hit home for me I’m 32 and in a LTR with a woman who’s 29 and SMV is 2 points under however we have hit a point in the relationship when sex and especially good sex is rare and more like a transaction. Being the red pill aware male I am (got all 3 books) I want to know how to best deal with this issue and get back to the frame I had at the beginning of the relationship where things were hot and sexy all the time. We do have a young daughter so I did… Read more »
“for most married women sex is reward she uses in the operant conditioning of her husband.” psychology 101 – hypergamy and the roots of sexual selection in the female homo sapien sapien: explores the biological, evolutionary and cultural history of alpha fux beta bux beginning with the sexual selection process of females in ape family not hiding estrus and finishing with our tricky little unicorn princesses here in the 21st psychology 102 – hypergamy and the operant conditioning of beta male homo sapien sapien: explores manipulation techiniques of the female through every stage of the male life Grade 4-5 ideally,… Read more »
“Man, I hate being right all the time:”
You cracked the code, Rollo.
Word to the wise:
When your wife openly says sex with you feels like rape, or says she feels like she’s being violated, or has to leap up after sex to retch into the toilet, or openly says she doesn’t like sex with you and doesn’t have to like it….
Stick a fork in that marriage. It’s done. Kill that puppy, It’s dead, and it’s not ever coming back. End that marriage forthwith.
“I am a humanities professor who teaches feminist theory, models feminist behavior for my students and my own children, and has achieved success in a male-dominated field” = fat disgusting pig
“This writer has chosen to remain anonymous to protect everyone involved in this article.” = fat disgusting pig
“When we have sex, I feel like I’m being violated.” The unwanted sex at times made me sick: Once I had to run straight from bed to the bathroom, where I retched into the toilet”
this makes me happy because she is a cunt
When a girl is in love with you, she is “lit up” often when around you, warm, sweet, spontaneous and she tests you.
If you are so unfortunate as to be in a LTR where sex is transactional but the girl wants you for bucks or honeydos, then your girl will be cautious, cool, manipulative, and controlling. She will treat you like her best girlfriend and won’t be “lit up.”
a red pilled high school warrior near prestigious university should use his underage gf to entrap progressive perv prof and then blackmail him into offering courses like this
This is sick, twisted, perverted and BRILLIANT!
” But what if you lie next to that man every night, and prefer to sleep naked? Should he assume your body is perpetually available to him for sex? ” her: that was fun me: you’re dreaming her: so you didn’t finger me and fuck me while I was sleeping last night? I didn’t get up and go to the bathroom afterwards and have something besides pee come out of me? me: you’re crazy her: I wish you would do that more me: crazy bitch dreaming about being sexually assaulted in her wet dreams. cute, but not at all unusual… Read more »
Is she YOUR daughter?
The biggest challenge was taking that monstrous truck sized pill and swallowing it. It took me years to accept and it hurt. It still does. Eventually, you do, because you don’t have a choice. Deveoping game in a marriage does not happen overnight either, but you do, because she didn’t have a choice. Nowadays, it’s almost full time amused mastery in the house. The biggest change in the dynamic was when I disconnected from transactional events entirely. Do it? Great. Don’t do it? Great. I’ve better things to do, which I do. The result is you carry yourself differently and… Read more »
From Rollos article:
“Do we believe there is no painfully “bad sex,” coercion, or sexual assault in marriage? If we do recognize the prevalence of these things, why aren’t we talking about it?”
A clumsy straw man set up by a Kristine McKinnon wanna be. McKinnon has been claiming all sex is rape for 30 years.
Always forward, never retreat. There’s an endless supply of leftist legislative agendas for all occasions in their desk drawer.
Catharine MacKinnon. U of Michigan law professor, has written articles arguing that all sex is rape and all marital sex is rape.
what would happen if the meme crew took some time to work on hypergamy instead?
could they crush their enemy even faster that way?
will men more readily accept an international criminal conspiracy, or the fact that bitches be cheatin’?
which is easier to understand, fractional reserve banking, or “bitches be cheatin'”?
“bitches be cheatin’… ever wonder why?”
“a red pilled high school warrior near prestigious university should use his underage gf to entrap progressive perv prof and then blackmail him into offering courses like this”
Laughed out loud on that one. Agree with gamer, that’s gold.
You’ve yet, no frame, no sexual history.
You say you’ll never get married. O.k. no problems with that. Don’t use it as a crutch to justify your meager sex life, tho.
You have time. Why so much unearned anger at 19? Leave that to the incels.
Stick around, build frame, get laid.
You wont lose points for that height. I’d dial back the pussy-ass approval-seeking though.
Stick around, build frame, get laid.
One of your best, Rollo. Hits the nail on the head. With a Viking war hammer. Two thoughts – Somewhere in the comments not too too long ago, someone said that metoo may be part of a conscious effort by feminists and elites to counteract the MRM and Red Pill knowledge. One or two commenters scoffed. Well, now the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has listed numerous Red Pill and MRA sites, forums, and groups as “hate groups” and “male supremacists”. The action is getting press and is complementing the mainstream metoo movement, which has now progressed to this phase… Read more »
“Betas often don’t even know there is a difference between transactional sex and validational sex. I for one was specifically taught that all sex that women have is transactional – women do not have sex merely for pleasure or fun. They have sex (give up sex) because they are always exchanging sex for something else they want. There is something abnormal about a woman who has sex for pleasure or fun or with a man she doesn’t know very well. Or so I was taught.” – thedeti Wow … this is what my own life experience has taught me and… Read more »
Yes, if it’s late enough in the night.
March 8, 2018 at 1:31 am
You’re speaking of deep conversion
I have called it bonding for as long as i can remember. Probably longer than the term “deep conversion” has been in existence.
World socialist web site???
M Simon Evidently a majority of men don’t believe in a level of deep conversion at all. We had a semi discussion about it at trm once and the level of scoffing was deafening. That’s one reason I pointed to Rollo’s Donovan interview. The phrase ” ..trust you with her life ” was used, and Rollo riffed on it a little. Quite a few of the relationships in my immediate social circle have couples in it that have been together for years, but for all intents and purpose, they are virtually strangers. Some of the men are practically held at… Read more »
@blax LOL Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it 🙂
But seriously, WSWS is actually principled, unlike the NY Times (Judith Miller anyone? Spiking the NSA domestic spying story till after Bush was re-elected?), irregardless if one agrees with socialism (I’m not, I just read a lot of different perspectives for context).
Anyway, the commentary is incisive, and coming from a “left wing” website makes it all the more damning of the whole metoo charade.
Self care and creation while helping other’s
Rollo, Considering your study of the subject and experience, do you think it’s possible that most men are a healthy mix of alpha and beta, and that the natural norm of that mixture falls within a reasonable balance? I mean, is it possible that the majority of men are formed with an effective balance of both alpha and beta physiological drivers innately? If so, the true “bad boys” and true “nice guys” would exist at the extremes of the spectrum and would both be minorities while the majority would possess a beneficial mix of both. This theory would contradict the… Read more »
NBTM, I think most men are Beta. Most men in any society are going to be Beta. Individual men can become Alpha (although for most men the effort required would probably be prohibitive), but overall most men are still going to be Beta. Whether or not this is healthy or unhealthy is largely irrelevant, this is the way it is. I know this would also compete with the claim that primarily 20% of all men fertilized most women in the past. Actually I think the evidence does sort of back this up. Its not quite this pronounced, but it would… Read more »
[…] article dovetails nicely with Rollo Tomassi’s point, “You cannot negotiate genuine desire.” Any man who attempts to negotiate genuine desire to destined to fail, as the writer’s […]
” . . . in all essentials the savage and the child of civilization are identical. I dare say that the highly civilized lady reading this will smile at an old fool of a hunter’s simplicity when she thinks of her black bead-bedecked sister; and so will the superfine cultured idler scientifically eating a dinner at his club, the cost of which would keep a starving family for a week. And yet, my dear young lady, what are those pretty things round your own neck?—they have a strong family resemblance, especially when you wear that very low dress, to the… Read more »
[…] “You cannot negotiate genuine desire” is one of the most important concepts in game and life. The actual title of Rollo’s post is “Transactional vs. validation sex,” but “You cannot negotiate genuine desire.” Pretty much any guy who’s been in a long-term relationship will relate to the point. […]
“. . . do you think it’s possible that most men are a healthy mix of alpha and beta, and that the natural norm of that mixture falls within a reasonable balance?” Apology NBTM (no Rollo here) – but the question is intriguing. Case in point: the commanding general at work who is subservient at home would suggest a mix in that man and what is expressed is contextual/situational: alpha in the field; beta at home. But as a mindset don’t think there can be a mix like that. If observe closely the military, will find in the most senior… Read more »
So – possibly a military “alpha”
As a term “Validation Sex” is a fail. Try a polite version of Cumdumpster
Tsk tsk tsk.
“These often got where they are in the ranks (in peacetime) by subordinating themselves to the rules and those over them who do the selecting for promotion. By contrast alpha man is often expelled/passed over (at least in peacetime) because he tends to NOT subordinate himself or be involved in a system requiring obedience to another” “That’s really the great mystery about bureaucracies. Why is it so often that the best people are stuck in the middle and the people who are running things—the leaders—are the mediocrities? Because excellence isn’t usually what gets you up the greasy pole. What gets… Read more »
j that’s the “Peter Principle” in action. A woman who divorces her decent husband because she’s unhappy and bored is bad. A woman who refuses to ever have sex with her decent husband because she’s bored is also bad. But that terrible Vox article Rollo links shows us something much worse. A woman who willingly acquiesces to her husband to keep him happy and stop him divorcing her, and then later complains in a national publication that every acquiescence was a an act of rape which left her dead inside. “Submitting to sex with a man who knew it was… Read more »
The triumph of the Beta male. Silicon Valley style.
A sign of the times.
A technical note: hardware guys tend more towards the Alpha. Electrons don’t care what you think. And they are unforgiving. But you can herd them in the right direction. Mostly. (Sound like any women you know?)
“you can herd them in the right direction with careful manipulation.”
March 8, 2018 at 10:52 pm
“The (Un)Scientific Method” is as unscientific as it gets. As noted in the comments to the article.
I feel so sorry for all those Beta’s out there who have never had hot, wild validational se It’s all i’ve ever known. I’d never really thought about that concept for the past 20+ years when i was banging lots of hotties usually much younger than me, but rarely did i fully commit to any of them, or them to me. So it was all validational sex. Even now that i’m in a bit of a pussy slump i’d still rather be single and alone than married to some harpy that didn’t want to fuck me (if i still had… Read more »
@Silver Fox: Exactly. The woman should always want & need you more by order of magnitude.
I’ve been seeing this bullshit quotes on social media recently – “My mom always told me to find a man whobloves you more than you love him.”😂😂😂😂
I mean, the F.I. echo chamber that is social media is just setting up more of this “rape-in-marriage” nonsense!
If a woman knows you need her, want her & love her more than she does you, it’s all down hill from there I’m afraid, whether she leaves or cucks you, or not.
se = seX!
March 8, 2018 at 1:36 pm
How does one spend so much time with another person, and not really know who they are? In detail? And why?
I am often considered the least social of the people at any gathering. And yet I can figure it out.
It is possible that my ineptness is in fact a gift. I have fewer assumptions.
In any case it is a wonder.
From the article 1) “way of training me to see my needs — emotional connection and communication — as excessive” It’s because those needs can not be articulated, and yet those needs change constantly. 2) And this gem of female logic “I am a humanities professor who teaches feminist theory, models feminist behavior for my students and my own children, and has achieved success in a male-dominated field.” Male dominated field? Right. 3) But more proof that game works/and how they view it. “It gives a man years to accomplish the emotional manipulation that men on dates must squeeze into… Read more »
Re: mixing Alpha and Beta Try it at your own peril. Try plugging yourself back into the matrix while you’re at it too. This talk happens more than I’d expect at TRM. Yet I’m baffled that I’m baffled someone who hangs out a lot here, would suggest it. Is there no empirical RP truth that could convince you not to fuck with the script? An ounce of Beta in a gallon of Alpha tastes more like Alpha than Beta. She hates Beta. Full stop. I’m the poster boy why not to try mixing it too. It’s a lot of work… Read more »
An ounce of Beta in a gallon of Alpha tastes more like Beta than Alpha. She hates Beta.
I fixed it for me.
@Rollo Interesting vox article, the husband doesn’t sound beta from the limited details they provide and has more of an idgaf attitude. I know the wife identifies as a feminist and there’s a lot of hamstering but what are your thoughts on this part: “At home, having tried without success the therapist-prescribed exercises for restoring emotional connection — check-ins about feelings, “nonsexual” touch — my husband lobbied for his own solution: “The thing you need is really complicated and difficult, and it’s not something I can do. But the thing I need is easy and quick. Why can’t you just… Read more »
“Interesting vox article, the husband doesn’t sound beta from the limited details they provide and has more of an idgaf attitude.
“If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?”
If a woman is indifferent to you and you DGAF, does that spark desire?
“every once in a while the gf will say she just needs to be reassured by me that I am still committed and not losing interest”
To her: then act like like someone who I’d find interesting and would want to commit to.
Then slap that ass…
“At no time should the sniper have to fire on someone’s command. He should be given clearance to fire and then he and he alone should decide exactly when.”
clearance to fire/mpo is granted to all men at birth – before even, like when we’re stealing our momma’s nutrients right out of her bloodstream
they live to give. we dishonor their nature by not taking
I feel so sorry for all those Beta’s out there who have never had hot, wild validational se It’s all i’ve ever known.
On the other hand, it’s also true that most women will never know what it’s like to be committed to by a man they can look up to.
“. . . having tried without success the therapist-prescribed exercises for restoring emotional connection — check-ins about feelings, “nonsexual” touch . . .” Jeeezus. ““The thing you need is really complicated and difficult, and it’s not something I can do. But the thing I need is easy and quick. Why can’t you just give me the thing I need?” Especially the last sentence, does this come from a place of insecurity on her part where he is too much on the alpha end and there is not enough comfort?” The last sentence comes from a pathetic place of desperate begging… Read more »
they live to give. we dishonor their nature by not taking
that’s exactly what women say about men
But do not point out that women have a nature as well, something they want, and that their nature is inextricably linked to the nature of men.
‘Cause that really pisses them off.
Thinking more about it, my question has become “What is the cause (or are the causes) of this apparent 80% beta 20% alpha distribution?” I agree, behaviorally what we see here today is an 80% beta -20% distribution. But why? And more importantly what really is it beneath the surface? What are we really observing and through what lens? If 80% beta -20% is the result of innate physiological phenomena, then where did all these betas come from? From whom did they descend? If 20% of males in the past were providing most of the seed and they were alpha,… Read more »
Evolution is not a striving for perfection.
Alphas are not perfect.
But, to the extent that alpha is hereditary, I note that there was a mass culling of wolves in the 20th century, followed by a period of breeding like rabbits.
Alpha and beta are mindsets. I get that. But, mindset is established by innate physiological constitution and social influences. There aren’t any others discussed with any significance. Perhaps there are others such as what is consumed and injested, smoked, or exposed to from the physical environment.
So, the question remains how did the beta majority form?
Word. Don’t fuck with nature.
“But in fact, Yellowstone was not preserved. On the contrary, it was altered beyond repair in a matter of years. By 1934, the Park Service acknowledged that whitetail deer, cougar, lynx, wolf, and possibly wolverine and fisher are gone from the Yellowstone.
What they didn’t say was that the Park Service was solely responsible for the disappearances. Park rangers had been shooting the animals for decades, even though that was illegal since the Lacey Act of 1894. But they thought they knew best.”
Just how many world’s fastest 100 meter dashers do you think there are at any one time?
Out of a pile of uncut diamonds, how many do you suppose are “perfect?”
No implication that eveloution seeks “perfection” here. “Perfection” is relative to who is evaluating and why. It is not a real phenomena, it is only a subjective psychological experience of real phenomena. Evolutionary adaptation does not appear to be willful. It seems to occur more by opportunity rather than individual intent. Although individuals do alter behavior based on perceived rewards as well as perceived threats, those who evolve do so by innately possessing traits that are advantageous in new conditions. Unless….there exists some universal orchestration possiblely found within individuals that enables (but doesn’t guarantee) individual change in response to changing… Read more »
“How did Ghingas Kahn sire so many beta sissy males?” Great analysis/question – you come up with the best NBTM Seems genetics account for at best 50% how we end up – even with identical genetics no guarantee of a trait presenting/disease manifesting: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4623659/ Current thought is “okay, so genes confer a vulnerability but the rest is environment.” Something additional is needed to “trigger” the disease e.g. good soil, water effect on a seed analogy. And genes themselves have heritability factors e.g. blue eyes being “recessive.” And no telling what genetics mom is bringing. Heck – maybe it’s all mom.… Read more »
“The last sentence comes from a pathetic place of desperate begging on his part. It is the reason she now has to go to the bathroom and retch at the mere thought of his touch, or perhaps the mere thought of his existence.”
Ah my bad, I misread that thinking she ha stated that not him.
Rollo, you are proved right again.
Jennifer Lawrence, with the “wall” looming close is now a “born again virgin” who hates sex.
That Jennifer Lawrence article is hilarious!!!!
“Meanwhile, the ‘American Hustle’ actress recently admitted she has a drunken dare-devil alter ego named Gail”
“Meanwhile, the actress recently admitted she has a drunken dare-devil alter ego named Gail. She said: ‘I didn’t (name her Gail), she almost named herself. I think my girl friends probably named her Gail just by the way I look.”
She’s AWALT certifiable. AF, no need for BB, still ASDing, just in case.
“Seems genetics account for at best 50% how we end up – even with identical genetics no guarantee of a trait presenting/disease manifesting:” Here is an interesting fact. I am an identical twin. I lean alpha. My brother on the other hand is a consummate beta. He is captain save a whore to the max. His first marriage was a disaster because of it, he made an awful,choice went into it because of it. It blew up, totally unsustainable. As typical,she filed. He balled his eyes out in front of my mother and I wailing “all I ever wanted to… Read more »
“What is the cause (or are the causes) of this apparent 80% beta 20% alpha distribution?” The female tendency to be only attracted towards exceptional men. That’s it. This tendency seems to home in on “masculine” men – tall, muscular, dark triad behavior. If these characteristics are commonplace, then they will prefer those men who display these traits most strongly. “. . . having tried without success the therapist-prescribed exercises for restoring emotional connection — check-ins about feelings, “nonsexual” touch . . .” And doing household chores of course! These “exercises” are acting the role of a platonic male friend.… Read more »
Afterthought: be interesting to see survival rates of the alpha vs. the beta.
Gut says it’s not the beta who learns to fly, jumps out of an airplane, rides a motorcycle, forms a gang, goes bungee jumping. Hypothesis is the alpha has a significantly higher rate of mortality and shorter lifespan; and so would tend to be “selected out” while yet young.
Seriously? You and your brother developed differently because society conditions boys of the loserly caliber to metabolize Intra-sexual competition anxiety as an invitation to the Simp Olympics.
The “Hot” brother becomes the favorite. The “not hot brother” becomes the nerd in an attempt to fight Fire with duck feathers as prescribed in Woody Allen’s movies.
See also “Vulnerability as Strength” and you have the ingredients of a willful ignorance of Inter-sexual dynamics that perpetuates it’s own existence at the expense of the man.
“SIMP HARDER!!!” “Sacrifice MOAR”