Saving the Best

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To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.

I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.

I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.

I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.

Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?

Her: Why are we talking about this?

Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?

Her: are you taking drugs?

Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.

She starts crying.

Me: Do you have anything to say?

She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.

Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.

She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut

Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.

She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.

She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.

Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.

She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.

Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.

She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you

Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.

Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.

I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.

I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.

As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.

I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.

Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”

I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.

I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.

Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.

There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.

As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.

There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.

Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.

The Best of Her

The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.

Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.

Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.

Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.

One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.

I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.

I Want You to Want Me

Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

[...] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change

What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.

He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.


739 responses to “Saving the Best

  • YOHAMI

    “She starts crying.”

    Classic. She’s never been married with him. Plus she’s likely to have been cheating.

    Nothing to work out here.

  • The Latin Buddha

    Whoa. This post gave me chills. I’m not surprised but as I was reading this dude’s retorts, I started feeling it like it was me that this was happening to.

    It’s nothing Rollo hasn’t covered before but this is a great case study on the essence of intergender dynamics: desire, hypergamy and the dire necessity for men to be Game-aware.

  • nipnup

    The only thing that baffles me about the whole thing: why marry her in the first place if she (claimed she) didn’t enjoy screwing his brains out [1]???

    I’ll take no sex over lousy sex, thank you very much

    [1] We shall leave the question of why any sane man should get married at all aside for this one.

  • donalgraeme

    Thanks for providing this Rollo.

    The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut.

    Yes, especially in marriage. If we have to give our all, we damned well expect the same from her.

    This woman wasn’t giving her husband her all. I am inclined to agree with Yohami that this can’t be worked out, because I don’t think she can give her husband her all. Indeed, I dare say that he was never more than an appliance in her eyes.

  • ar10308

    Saw this post when it was snapshotted to RPReddit. Such a thing is scary to read, even when you know it won’t be you. It is like watching a version of yourself being tortured and all you can do is look on.

    The replies from the non-RP redditors were utterly sickening.

    Such threads and corresponding advice givers make me seriously wonder why more men do not lash out in violence as a result of anger.

  • mindstar

    “…her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that ” That is the crux of the issue. He is faced with clear evidence of her utter lack of desire for him. Had she been genuinely attracted to him she would have certainly engaged in the activities she had previously enjoyed with multiple partners

  • swiftfoxmark2

    Such a sad story. It is obvious that she never loved him, only desired his stability.

    Men have always judged how much a woman loves him by the quality of sex they receive. Sure there are other things, but that is the primary thing for men. This is why in a patriarchal society, virgins were prized.

    Unfortunately my advice is to not divorce nor engage in an open marriage, but to work things out as best as he can. Yes, she dealt him a crap hand, but they are married now.

    That is, unless she has cheated on him. In which case, leave her and go to another country as he will lose out big in divorce court.

  • darkpenguin350

    The fact that the guy is still able to even consider taking her back is what blows me away. Personally I’d have her executed for that deception…

  • sal ceech

    ..know when to walk away, know when to run , know when to ( Usain ) Bolt.

  • Marky Mark

    I guarantee she cheated… no way she can have those experiences when she is young and just randomly stop when she is older… she is still a woman with needs and desires. He should just move to Eastern Europe and wire all his money there.

  • The Latin Buddha

    @swiftfoxmark2

    There is no sense in living in misery and kicking the can down the road…. forever. That’s mediocre living. If you have a house with mold in the foundation, there’s no sense in trying to repair it. It will keep coming back or crumble on top of you. He must walk away for his sanity and long term well being.

  • thegreatshebang

    Thank you very much for this post, Rollo.

    Over the years, I’ve upped my Game, upped my SMP, tried to kill the beta, etc. etc. I’m just tired of it all a bit, it’s just a constant grind to get another girl, find out she’s not capable of a deeper connection, then grind to get another girl and repeat and meanwhile spin plates with girls I don’t are much for. It’s kinda dull so I mix it up to not get bored. Maybe I should add even more Alpha and more Game but the women don’t seem worth the extra effort. It’s just easy sex or move on, next, now.

  • swiftfoxmark2

    @The Latin Buddha

    How do you know that he will be miserable for the rest of his life if he stays with her?

    Right now, he’s confused, hurt, and pissed off. But he has an opportunity to make things better for both himself, his wife, and his daughter. It won’t be easy and it won’t fun, but it can happen.

    I’m not saying he should “man-up” like the white knights do, but I am saying that while his life really sucks right now, with a dying father and prudish whore for a wife, that there are things he can improve upon. I personally don’t know what he needs to do, but then again, I am not him.

    On a side note, it is weird how his wife kept the video tape. And it is odder still that nobody in Reddit really brought that up. They just assumed that she felt guilty about it or that she was sexually abused earlier in life, both of which is irrelevant to the topic.

    She kept the tape but held out on him.

  • YOHAMI

    “How do you know that he will be miserable for the rest of his life if he stays with her?”

    Really?

    “it is weird how his wife kept the video tape.”

    For starters.

    Its worse though. When he confronted her about the porn her immediate reaction was denial / deflect. When confronted with evidence, her first reaction was crying. When he tried to leave, her first reaction was to stop him.

    1) She lies to his face
    2) When put in evidence, she resorts to emotional manipulation
    3) When he tries to get out of the manipulation, she wants to keep him in

    Add that she doesnt want to have sex with him, but that she has the tape as a memory. Either as an alpha widow trophy, or as something she uses to carnade other men (seen that before)

    So why stay there?

    The fact that the dude makes an edit and says that he wants to work things out says all about the mechanics in that “marriage”.

  • deti

    One reason, and one reason only, to try and save it.

    They have a kid together (which kid that man should DNA/paternity test, and that right soon).

    Agree with all the comments. She’s not attracted to him. She never was and probably never will be.

    We don’t know she cheated (though she probably did). He should get to the bottom of that too (and that right soon). That man should immediately comb the cell phone bill and start grilling her on numbers he doesn’t recognize. He should put a keylogger on the computer, a GPS on her car and a voice-activacted recorder in the cabin of her car. If he can afford it he should put her under surveillance.

  • Cautiously Pessimistic

    That post gave me PTSD chills. Fortunately, I haven’t experienced that kind of betrayal in marriage, but I have experienced it.

    Based only on the info he gave (ie: assuming she hasn’t been cheating on him, which is not a good assumption to make) my advice to him would be that IF he wants to try to save the marriage, he cannot have the marriage he wanted, nor can he have the relationship with his wife that he wanted. He will have to fundamentally change his expectations of her and the marriage. He will be stuck acting like (in his mind) some misogynistic asshole to his wife because it’s the only way that she will respect him. And IF he does this, his marriage will be less likely to go nuclear, but it’s still likely that it will.

    Frankly, if he doesn’t have religious convictions preventing it, I’d advise him to leave her, if I didn’t have religious convictions against advising that. Given my convictions, though, I’d advise him to get proof of her adultery, and then leave her.

  • Tin Man

    @swiftfoxmark2
    It’s not strange, I would say it’s typical. Woman are collectors/horders by nature – how many do you know that still have “love letters” from their youth? She kept, end of story.

    As far as him staying married…it could work, there’s no reason to believe it couldn’t. If nothing else, Men are a strong lot and can endure very terrible things – including what this Man went through. Also, the fact that he found the RP Reddit means he may find some other resources – he may learn, he may integrate, he may just cross over the chasm from where he is today, to a place where he can truly lead his wife. Personally, I think the key to marriage for a Man is always have the attitude “there’s the door, it’s not locked, and don’t let it hit you in the ass when you leave” and two other things (1) Have and enforce boundaries and (2) everyone follows your lead and your rules.

    And I am only talking from perspective of not doing those things – and eventually having my marriage break down and becoming an ex-husband and co-parent. I was the “Great American Beta Husband” and at the time was proud to it. It was only after the shit hit the fan that I found this stuff and figured out where I went off the rails.

    He still has a chance – in fact, while she is in this particular mindset – his chances of changing the dynamic go way up.

    I think the greatest lie that most husbands buy into is “life will be easier now” – it’s not. It never stops. You have to game your wife harder than you ever did any other woman. It doesn’t get easier, it gets harder – because now, you HAVE TO do it or risk losing your family. Personally and from my point of view, fuck the financial impact of divorce, it’s the fact that I no longer have my family with me – and it only gets worse because now your family will be spending time with another man. I get substituted. That sucks the most.

    // end rant

  • The Latin Buddha

    @swiftfoxmark2

    In your opinion, what does “success” look like at that point? The issue is so systemic that it really boils down to her not wanting him but wanting his provision. How do you “learn” to “want” someone? You either want to fuck the shit out of your partner or you don’t. That’s desire.

    Their daughter will be better off with each of them hopefully becoming better people on their own rather than being miserable together.

  • YaReally

    lol it’s mind-boggling how many guys will read this and then think “but the girl I’LL get will be SPECIAL, she won’t have done anything sexual!! YaReally just gets bar sluts, not like the girls *I* get!” because of their madonna/whore complex. If you give off any kind of judgemental vibe, or even don’t give one off but don’t actively give off a NON-judgemental vibe, she’ll simply hide her history from you…ESPECIALLY if she sees you as potential long-term relationship material.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I would rather come off non-judgemental and encourage her to share her real sexual side with me, than tell her I only like good girls and have her clam up and keep secrets. I’ll quiz girls to see what kind of stuff they’ve done, under the guise of “wow, you banged an entire football team, that’s hot, that’s like some porn level shit, tell me more, they probably didn’t even use condoms hey? I hate condoms too ugh…” and then just not actually bang her (lol, surprise judgement! I don’t think less of her as a person and I wish her the best of luck, but I don’t want to stick my dick in that).

    I’ve done shit with girls that their boyfriends/hubbies/friends have no idea their girl is even capable of doing or would even fantasize about, because their girl is a perfect angel to them, because they might judge her.

    Like Tyler says, “the only reason you’re angry about it, is because you’re not a part of it”. That’s why this guy is pissed, it’s not that she did that, it’s that she won’t do it with HIM. Because he isn’t sexworthy enough to her.

    I would bet that this is the same kind of guy who would have been totally anti-game back when he met his chick too lol

    Props to the guy for having the balls to call her out on it and walk out. But he trapped himself by getting legally married to her so he’s pretty fucked. And his resentment isn’t going to go away anytime soon. An open marriage would be retarded…he will get zero pussy and she will fuck a bunch of guys, because he clearly doesn’t satisfy her Hypergamy.

    Learn game, learn to be sexual, learn to accept that women love sex and be okay with that, learn not to judge, and learn to keep growing as a man instead of resting on your laurels once you’re married. And don’t get married.

  • Singl4life

    This is a real life nightmare. I’m pretty sure I’d kill her. My failed 5 year marriage had similar issues but no where near that degree. I remember how it felt just knowing what little I did. If I found a video like that… Yeah murder, suicide, or both would’ve been on the dinner menu.

    These kinds of things are what have kept me firmly distanced from women for awhile now. I still have that raw sexual desire for them but it’s been overwhelmingly trumped by my revulsion for the things they do.

    I’ve been alpha before… I know I could do it again… I just don’t find them worth the effort… Any effort.

  • deti

    aaaaaaand the female commentariat is strangely silent.

    The only difference between this man’s wife and pretty much most other women in today’s SMP is that there’s videotape evidence of this woman’s past sluttery.

    What’s worse, this videotape is just what this man happened to stumble across. Almost certainly, it’s just the tip of the iceberg. What more has she done in her past that isn’t memorialized on film or in writing? What more did she do that she either (1) doesn’t remember or (2) won’t cop to?

    And don’t give me the “oooooh, men do it too” bullshit. She’d get all turned on if there were an amateur porno of her husband doing multiple women.

    She’s not ashamed of this video. She kept it as a trophy, as evidence of her past sexual market power. She was hot enough to get five men to fuck her on film at the same time. She’s proud of that video. I don’t believe for a minute that it was forgotten. Nobody forgets getting gangbanged by five men ON FILM. She’s sorry that he discovered it, and that she got caught red handed in a lie.

    What’s a man going to do to determine if his woman is/was a slut? Ask her? What’s he going to do to determine her N? Ask her? Don’t ever expect an honest answer to such questions. This post and the RPreddit thread are more support for the assertion that you multiply by 2 or 3 what she admits to; and now you’ve got a roughly accurate estimate of her N.

  • YaReally

    And as far as what he SHOULD do, if he wants to stay in the marriage which he should ’cause he’s got a kid and divorce rape sucks and all, is absorb everything on Married Man Sex Life and follow the Map thing to make himself more attractive on there.

    He will never ever ever ever ever logically convince his wife to be attracted to him, that’s just not how it works…but he COULD theoretically improve himself and down the road in year or two he may be able to start triggering her hypergamy and legitimately attract her…it’s an uphill battle, but hey, what else does he have to do, it’s not like he’s busy having hot kinky sex with his wife lol

    Preventative measures:

  • Tin Man

    BTW, personally, I think he should leave. Not a coward’s cut-n-run thing, but he states it several times – that he just doesn’t know if he get past it. If he can, then it could work (with a significant shift in HIS thinking – and regardless to how she reacts). But, from my experience, she won’t allow the dynamic to change in the long run, and will probably just decided to find the next provider while he stays around to support her.

    Better to be proactive, nuke her now, potentially he can keep his daughter and be the custodial parent.

    Bottom line, there are no winners here, regardless of the direction he takes next.

  • Jack Schitz

    Here’s a thought. He walks in and sits her down and tells here that their marriage is going to be completely run by him and by his rules from now on (e.g., his out of marriage relationships OK, her’s not), if not, or she fucks up, the video goes on the internet. If she files for divorce, the video goes on the internet. If she complains too much, the video goes on the internet. Basically this guy now owns this cunt, and if not, you guessed it, THE VIDEO GOES ON THE INTERNET.

  • YaReally

    @deti

    “What’s a man going to do to determine if his woman is/was a slut? Ask her? What’s he going to do to determine her N? Ask her? Don’t ever expect an honest answer to such questions”

    Ask them without judgement, and they’ll tend to be pretty honest. This is pretty much impossible for a lot of men though, ’cause of the madonna/whore complex most guys have. Her female BFF and gay BFF know things about her that her boyfriend doesn’t know…why? They won’t judge her. The only person less judgemental than her BFF is a guy who’s super comfortable with sex and sexuality, and who won’t be around for more than a few bangs…it’s safe for her to open up to that guy because he won’t judge her and he won’t be around long enough for any confessions she makes to have any impact on her “real” life.

    But a guy’s gotta’ experience this first-hand to really believe it.

  • deti

    Cautiously:

    +1. The only way this marriage can be saved is for him to hone his full on asshole game and run it. His marriage will never be the same after this, and he’ll never have the marriage he wanted. That ship has sailed and it’s never coming back. If and when he has grounds for divorce, if and when he discovers any cheating, he should IMMEDIATELY end the marriage.

  • The Latin Buddha

    @Tin Man and @YaReally

    Let’s say he does all that work and he successfully shifts his thinking and all. Can you imagine the first time he would have sex with her again? He’d have to be a psychological mural to not let thoughts of disgust or doubt creep in, or wonder if she’s genuinely having sex with him out of desire or out of duty (not that you couldn’t tell… which is worse if it were out of duty…. AGAIN).

    I don’t know. It seems like a tall order. Even if she were attracted to him after he shifted his thinking, I would imagine the last person you’d want to invest all that hard work and results on was the girl who didn’t initially truly want you.

  • Random Angeleno

    Poor guy. He needs a DNA test now for their child. And walk away, burn the earth behind him if it’s not his. Move out, move away, get lost, let her family, her friends, her job know about the tape and the kid’s paternity. Yes it will get back to his family too, but what other choice does he have if the child’s not his?

    If it is his then, the obligation is on him to support. To do that properly, he may have to reconcile with his wife, given that family court may take that kid away from him.

    If reconciliation is in the cards, then he needs to up his married man game. Athol Kay at MMSL is a good resource for that. He also needs to open up her entire life, cell phone, facebook, etc., for monitoring. Passwords for everything. It’s the only way she can earn his trust back. If she can.

  • Jeremy

    As f-ed up as it sounds, if he had slapped her during that conversation, he might have started the tinglings of the attraction that he never aroused in her before, and gotten himself thrown in jail in the process. Christ what a fucked up world this is.

    To me the take-away for the women is… N count matters less than our belief that you can be *OUR* slut when committed to us. However, the greater the N, the more obvious it is that you’ll do those things with anybody.

    The negotiated desire was obvious on the first reading of his account of the conversation. I found myself pointing at her and calling her a Beta supplicant, which was a first for me.

    And yes, I can say this would be a dealbreaker for me, should be for any man. when it becomes plainly obvious a woman wasn’t actually attracted to me, because she’ll do these things that I wanted with all these other guys, its over. No going back.

  • deti

    The women remain silent.

    I’m waiting.

    Waiting for any woman to come here and express outrage, disgust, judgment.

    But I hear none.

    Not a peep. Not one.

  • Stingray

    This was posted over at the Market Ticker forums last week, linked from ROK. I shouldn’t have been, but I was surprised at the number of men who were trying to shame this guy (not that he was there to read it). Many said how he should just let it go. The past is in the past. That lots of people do stuff like this, etc, etc.

    There were a couple of obviously red-pill guys there, I was glad to see, but most people were jumping to the woman’s defense.

  • YaReally

    @Latin Buddha

    “I don’t know. It seems like a tall order. Even if she were attracted to him after he shifted his thinking, I would imagine the last person you’d want to invest all that hard work and results on was the girl who didn’t initially truly want you.”

    Oh I agree. I don’t think he can salvage things. But his options are basically 1) leave, and lose half his shit and possibly custody of his kid (who may or may not be his kid) in divorce (and have to pay child support without getting to even see his kid), 2) stay with her and try to get her attracted and see if he can still bang her without wanting to barf, or 3) open marriage and bang other women.

    MMSL will help him head towards both 2 and 3…ie – the things he does that attract his wife will also attract other women, so then an open relationship isn’t SO bad. But doing an open relationship now, when he’s 7 years into being unattractive to even his wife, he’s not going to go out and slay a bunch of poon…he’s going to listen to his wife gang-banging more guys and they’ll ask him to hold the videocamera.

    I’m not saying he has to forgive her or anything, and I don’t think he COULD ever fuck her again without thinking all those things you listed. But realistically his options are all pretty bleak. MMSL has the highest payoff and most versatility, in terms of where his life will be 5 years from now.

  • Jeremy

    @swiftfoxmark2

    How do you know that he will be miserable for the rest of his life if he stays with her?

    Because she was never attracted to him in the first place. She’s outright lying when she says she is attracted to him, baldfaced, plain, deception. If a woman is genuinely attracted to you, all manner of physical pleasure is opened up, period. She’s saying that because she doesn’t want to lose the stable family life she has now, the provisioning and protection.

  • YaReally

    @Stingray

    “I was surprised at the number of men who were trying to shame this guy (not that he was there to read it). Many said how he should just let it go. The past is in the past. That lots of people do stuff like this, etc, etc.”

    That’s an easy one. I’d bet most of those guys have either had similar things happen to them, or their buddies, and been just as powerless to fight it. They want him to suck it up because that’s what they did, and it doesn’t seem as weak that they haven’t had sex in a year if they know other guys are in the same boat.

    I think the biggest boon to the red pill has been the Internet giving men a place to compare stories and go “YOU haven’t had sex in your relationship in a year EITHER?? I thought it was just me!!” and realizing they aren’t alone since in public everyone always acts like everything’s okay.

  • Deus Ex Machina

    Reblogged this on Deus Ex Machina and commented:
    Not even the greeks could’ve written a tragedy like this.

  • RikF

    I would probably leave finding out about something like this, after her having lied about it all those years. She can never be trusted again, especially considering her behaviour when he confronted her. He nees to get his assets and finances in order and save as much as he can.

    The problem, I guess, is that it seems to be harder to get 50/50 custody (or full custody for the father) in America than it is here in Euroep (at least in Sweden where I live). This probably means he will be financially ruined and more or less bound to her until the daugher reaches adulthood. Maybe it depends on which state you live in.

    On the other hand, as others have stated: if he does stay, he needs to set the rules and set them hard ans tight. He should have full sexual freedom while she should be kept … in a chastity belt, prehaps? He takes car of all the money, hers too etc. Anyway, the power balance will have to change completely for the marriage to be even the least bearable for him and he is the one who needs to enforce the change. From his writing, he doesn’t quite seem like the man to do it. At least not right now. Hope he has friends to talk to and who can push him in the right direction. He should probably call that lawyer brother of his.

  • earl

    How is that sexual liberation working out for women these days?

    If game, red pill, any of this knowledge is worth its weight in salt…it is knowing which women actually desire you, and which are the subtle sluts who gave it away for nothing and only want you for your ATM capabilities.

  • Stingray

    I just went back over there an re-read some of the comments on that MT thread. More than one guy said that he should have just taken her at her word and turned her into his slut, like she promised and that he would eventually get over it.

    Supposing for a second that she could actually do this for him (and I think the chances are slim that she could), I don’t see him getting over this, ever. I’m not a man, though. How many men could really get over this kind of betrayal?

  • earl

    And to echo an earlier comment…

    I would rather have no women in the world desire me…than to have one who tricks me like that.

  • Tin Man

    As the saying goes…. “you can’t unsee that” … he now knows. The red pill was forced down his throat, he didn’t take it willingly. The forum at NMMNG and MMSL are filled with these stories. Not for the faint of heart. And it should be required reading before any Man decides to get married.

    Because when your mind is awash in a sea of chemicals, you can make some really bad decisions.

  • earl

    “How many men could really get over this kind of betrayal?”

    If they said they could…they are lying.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    …he’s going to listen to his wife gang-banging more guys and they’ll ask him to hold the videocamera.

    I realize how twisted this is going to sound, but I can’t help but wonder if the commonness of situations like this aren’t somehow influencing the increased popularity of internet cuckold porn.

  • Stingray

    YaReally,

    That makes sense. Sadly, I’m picturing these women never changing and just relaxing back into their role as prude wife and holding their husbands forgiveness over their heads as just another link in the chain.

  • ropeyarns

    Of course she kept the tape, it reminds her that she isn’t really a frigid mommy that doesn’t like sex and doles out scraps to her Beta hubby. Unfortunately, this guy’s marriage is over. He will never be able to put this behind him and trying to use it as leverage will only turn her into a soul stealing shrew.

    As far as the reason for divorcing, the truth doesn’t need to come out. You just tell your family that you have grown apart. Because the real reason for divorcing isn’t the tape, it is because this woman settled for a Beta and now can’t stand the thought of f&*king him. Get out now while you still have your balls.

  • Jeremy

    This reveals another problem with distorted feminimity… Daddy issues.

    Only a woman who treats her husband like part-time-father would restrict sexual access to him, or think that certain acts are “icky” with a husband.

  • earl

    The truth will set you free…even though it may be painful.

    Men can be a pretty forgiving bunch…if you are truthful. Women may not like the results…but they may also be surprised at what can happen.

    Which goes to show…the lie or the cover up is usually much worse than the act.

  • Singl4life

    No man could honestly get over that. It’s similar to the dynamic of women wanting men “to just get it”. The moment she tells you what she wants the act of doing it no longer has value.

    The sex he wants out of guilt would be disgusting in his eyes. Nothing she can say or do could fix or change that fact. Game over.

  • Jeremy

    @earl

    And to echo an earlier comment…
    I would rather have no women in the world desire me…than to have one who tricks me like that.

    A-fucking-men. I would rather end my life a single loser video-game player than have to deal with the deception this guy dealt with, where years of his prime were lost to a woman who would not put out for him, but for others.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Think about that for a minute. Here’s a guy who’s desire for the past 7 years was a simple blow job from his wife, much less anything more imaginative – the guy didn’t have a problem with her being enthusiastically slutty, his problem was that he never got to experience even a fraction of the same enthusiasm.

    My guess is that he was (is?) hopeful he can get at something resembling the verve she had with these (and probably other) guys. He probably beat off to the video the first time he saw it because it turned him on thinking his wife actually had the capacity to be that way with him.

    Only later did he realized any “duty” sex she might have with him now would be a feigned effort. He’d be better off banging prostitutes.

  • YaReally

    @Stingray

    “Supposing for a second that she could actually do this for him (and I think the chances are slim that she could), I don’t see him getting over this, ever. I’m not a man, though. How many men could really get over this kind of betrayal?”

    Yep. All the “make her your slave! Now you have control of her!!” from the angry guys doesn’t actually solve his problem. He doesn’t WANT that stuff, and even if he got it he would just be heading down a path where his whole life and marriage is based around resentment and hatred for his wife. He just wants to un-know the stuff he knows, and have her want him in that way…but we know that can’t happen. He might get a little therapeutic revenge at treating her like shit for a bit, but it won’t do any good for his psyche long-term.

    @Tin Man

    “The red pill was forced down his throat, he didn’t take it willingly. The forum at NMMNG and MMSL are filled with these stories. Not for the faint of heart. And it should be required reading before any Man decides to get married.”

    Agreed.

    Acceptance VS Depression when you swallow the red pill:

    http://yareallyarchive.com/2012/9/#comment-heartiste-367897

    @Stingray

    “I’m picturing these women never changing and just relaxing back into their role as prude wife and holding their husbands forgiveness over their heads as just another link in the chain.”

    Why would they change? Look at it from her perspective: He won’t leave her and she gets some drama excitement for a while. If he does leave her, she gets half his money and probably keeps their kid, as well as getting pats on the back from friends/family for leaving his judgemental “probably emotionally abusive and unable to sexually satisfy her” (as they’ll paint him) ass, as well as pats on the back from the white knights and feminists of society, and no one will ever dare judge her for it.

    Feminism has basically removed all consequences for women…so why WOULD they change? They don’t have to, and are actively encouraged NOT to.

    So again I say, don’t get married. Don’t cripple your ability to leave the situation. It’s a very cleverly designed trap that helps remove the ability to enforce consequences…it’s giving someone else entirely too much power over you.

  • The Latin Buddha

    @YaReally

    I hear what you’re saying. You’re coming at it from a pragmatic standpoint. And while I’m not versed in the divorce process because I was saved by cancer before marrying a crazy girl, I gotta tell ya…. if he’s been married for 7 years…. and is awakening from betahood … I think it’s safe to assume that he might be younger… possibly late 20s?

    It MAY be worth getting a fresh start even she keeps half. Maybe for his long-term well being or as part of his road to recovery. Again, I don’t know about that divorce process and we don’t know all the background info. But you’re right… he’s fucked either way.

  • Jeremy

    @deti

    The women remain silent.
    I’m waiting.
    Waiting for any woman to come here and express outrage, disgust, judgment.
    But I hear none.
    Not a peep. Not one.

    Because doing so would admit that a woman’s body should be freely given to her husband and her husband only when in a committed relationship, not held back. Women won’t admit such a thing.

  • Stingray

    Feminism has basically removed all consequences for women

    Yes and yet, somehow so many still think of themselves as strong. It’s maddening.

  • earl

    Feminism didn’t remove all consequences for women.

    It gave them a convienient excuse to hamsterbate away their consequences.

    Being a gangbanged slut still has grave consequences…even the most blue pill mangina of man would have a hard time being ok with this.

  • findOut

    I think that all men should ask their wives if they’re willing to take a lie detector test about all the men that they’ve slept with and what they’ve been willing to do. If the wife challenges the husband to also take a lie detector test about all the women that they’ve slept with, just agree to it. The women will yell and carry on about it, but just stand your ground and insist on a lie detector test as a condition of staying married.

  • Jack Schitz

    This guy can probably get a good settlement and custody in divorce, after all he has the tape and if he has the balls to use it then….

  • Tank

    “Only later did he realized any “duty” sex she might have with him now would be a feigned effort. He’d be better off banging prostitutes.”

    What’s the difference? Prostitutes are not pining for their Johns. It’s a business.

    The cards are on the table now. She said he can do whatever he wants to her. So why not go the other direction and fuck her exactly the way he wants to fuck her. Do it up her ass. Make her gag. She may not be dying to fuck him, but she may be dying to get fucked hard. Isn’t it possible that will make her attracted to him? That the reason she is not attracted to him is because she doesn’t think he’s capable of doing the things that the 5 guys in the video were capable of?

    If he wants a whore for a wife, maybe he just has to start treating her like one instead of “wanting her to want to fuck him.”

  • Rollo Tomassi

    This guy’s real issue is accepting the reality that any future sex he ever has with this woman will be an act of obligation motivated by fear of loss, not genuine desire. His marriage from here forward is now predicated on that fear.

    In acknowledging this he knows that his marriage and any hope he ever had about her ‘coming around’ sexually for him in time, is all a wasted effort. And in that knowledge he knows his marriage is over whether he tries to ‘work it out’ or not. As I said, a prostitute would be a better option, since her act of desire would be more believable without his knowing her sexual past experiences.

  • Deus Ex Machina

    Wow, not even the Greeks could’ve written a tragedy like this. The need for men to learn game is becoming more and more apparent everyday. Women are pragmatists masquerading as romantics. What’s funny is even after he asks her how many guys she’s fucked she still wouldn’t answer the question. The number is astronomical and it’s a certainty she’s been cheating on him. I commend him for his composure and not resolving to physical violence. Cases like these usually end in homicide, suicide or both. What I would do if I were him is get a paternity test on his daughter, dispose of this excuse for a woman immediately and learn game.

  • Jeremy

    @Rollo Tomassi

    This guy’s real issue is accepting the reality that any future sex he ever has with this woman will be an act of obligation motivated by fear of loss, not genuine desire.

    Didn’t he learn that it was always thus? Hasn’t he just unearthed that his entire marriage was a sham where she was holding back?

  • YaReally

    @Latin Buddha
    “It MAY be worth getting a fresh start even she keeps half. Maybe for his long-term well being or as part of his road to recovery.”

    Agreed, if it weren’t for his kid. Men generally aren’t favored in the courts when it comes to getting custody of their kid, and men generally don’t have any support (whereas all of her friends and family will come out of the woodwork to claim that they just KNEW he was abusing her and their child and she should get the kid etc.). So instigating a divorce has a high % chance of losing access to his kid (but not losing the requirement to pay child support that he knows she probably won’t even use for the kid).

    I’m sure he can walk away from his wife, and we’d all encourage that. But even as cold and dead inside as I am, I can’t in good conscience recommend walking away from his kid. He got into a situation, now he has to deal with it.

    @earl
    “Being a gangbanged slut still has grave consequences…even the most blue pill mangina of man would have a hard time being ok with this.”

    What consequences? Even if he leaves her, she and most of society will paint her as the victim and a thousand lame white knight men will line up to happily take his place.

    @findOut
    “I think that all men should ask their wives if they’re willing to take a lie detector test about all the men that they’ve slept with and what they’ve been willing to do.”

    lol even if this silly insecure scenario could be enforced, the hamster in women is strong enough to really convince her that that BJ she gave on vacation to the cabana boy “didn’t count”. She’d pass a lie detector just fine because she legitimately doesn’t view it as wrong, until she gets caught and there are consequences.

    Better to learn to be non-judgemental so she’s willing to be more open about her history.

    @Tank
    “So why not go the other direction and fuck her exactly the way he wants to fuck her.”

    Because the way he wants to fuck her is wanting her to WANT to fuck him. It’s not that she doesn’t give him BJs that’s his issue, he was doing just fine until he found the tape, it’s that she happily gave BJs to other men and doesn’t WANT to give him BJs that’s his issue.

    @Rollo
    “This guy’s real issue is accepting the reality that any future sex he ever has with this woman will be an act of obligation motivated by fear of loss, not genuine desire.”

    Yep. I’d imagine there’s also a lot of self-loathing in there, in terms of “how could I not have seen it? how could I have fallen for this for 7 years??” Sooooo many issues.

    Prostitutes will get his dick wet with less baggage than fucking his wife, but they won’t restore the sense of manhood he just lost, which is ultimately the real issue…the sex is just an external thing, it’s not even really important compared to the internal damage he’ll have to repair.

  • earl

    “What consequences? Even if he leaves her, she and most of society will paint her as the victim and a thousand lame white knight men will line up to happily take his place.”

    And you don’t see that as a consequence.

    She wants an alpha to bang her…not some lame white knight to supplicate her victomhood. Althought that is probably the best she could get given she is a past slut…may get divorced, has a kid, and is much older than when she married her husband.

    You also didn’t present this option…even with getting half of the funds, the victomhood, and the kid…she could still wind up all alone. That is a fate worse than death for a lot of women.

  • deti

    “ This guy’s real issue is accepting the reality that any future sex he ever has with this woman will be an act of obligation motivated by fear of loss, not genuine desire. His marriage from here forward is now predicated on that fear.”

    And even if it isn’t; even if by some miracle she reaches deep within herself and manages to muster up some genuine attraction for him; and she then starts giving him regular pornstar level sex; that nagging doubt will always be there. He’ll always wonder if what he’s seeing and experiencing is genuine desire and love; or a performance motivated by obligation and fear.

  • Stingray

    Didn’t he learn that it was always thus?

    Learning it and accepting it are two different things.

  • YaReally

    @earl

    “She wants an alpha to bang her…not some lame white knight to supplicate her victomhood.”

    She’ll get an alpha to bang her…once she secures one of these lame white knights to take care of her. What would stop her from fucking alphas on the side?

    “even with getting half of the funds, the victomhood, and the kid…she could still wind up all alone. That is a fate worse than death for a lot of women.”

    lol. She very clearly has no problem/conscience with regards to using a beta guy for his money. She’ll have no problem doing it again with another one. The ones who end up alone are the ones who “don’t need a man to take care of me”. Long as she hits the gym and stays fuckable looking, there are plenty of men who will line up to take care of her.

  • Jeremy

    @Stingray

    Learning it and accepting it are two different things.

    Absolutely, but I would think that the realization that you never actually had what you thought you had might be a nice swift kick to the head in that direction.

  • Zeroday

    That’s some raw shit there mr tomassi. “Her best was never for him”

    Sounds eerily familiar. Only without the 7 years and daughter.

  • Jeremy

    @YaReally

    She’ll have no problem doing it again with another one.

    That depends on how close to the wall she is, and she instinctively knows it.

  • Jeremy

    oh, also… LOL…

    She never answered his question.

    Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.

    She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you…

    She NEVER ANSWERED IT… lol. Best example of women instinctively realizing what N count means to a man I’ve ever seen.

  • Stingray

    but I would think that the realization that you never actually had what you thought you had might be a nice swift kick to the head in that direction.

    One hopes, but we’ve all read and many of us have personally seen men who will not accept reality in hopes of keeping the girl. The fact that he posted this gives me hope that he is working on accepting it. The internet is giving men far more options in pulling away from the narrative and help in that acceptance.

    God knows that if he takes her back he will be simultaneously reviled and applauded for it. By both his wife and by society.

  • earl

    “She’ll have no problem doing it again with another one.”

    I’d have to see a recent photo of her to agree or disagree with that statement.

    And if she is throwing out all these statemtents to keep her current ATM…I’d have to say she has either hit the wall or is rapidly approaching it.

  • earl

    Heh…the next time a woman asks how much you make…just answer:

    “Why does it matter?”

  • YaReally

    @Jeremy
    “Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.

    She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you…

    She NEVER ANSWERED IT… lol. Best example of women instinctively realizing what N count means to a man I’ve ever seen.”

    lol this is an example of asking in a judgemental way. And what happens? Obviously, she won’t actually answer and will try to lie. That’s why the way I ask and the vibe I put out gets generally truthful answers, but a guy like this (and even if the guys aren’t saying these exact words, this is often how their question comes across) doesn’t.

    The thing a woman fears most is judgement. Remove that, and she’ll share all sorts of fucked up shit with you. That chick would tell a guy like Russell Brand her whole sexual history, and proudly.

    @Stingray
    lol Tyler has a good story about making out with a girl in front of her boyfriend, and when the boyfriend is like “wtf did you just kiss him?!” they both just go “no, it didn’t happen. We were just talking.” And even tho the guy SAW them making out, it would be too shattering to his reality to accept that, so he convinces himself that it didn’t happen, just like they said. It’s scary, and fascinating.

  • Jeremy

    Or, Earl, respond to a question with a question..

    Woman: “How much do you make?”
    You: “How many people have you had sex with?”

  • sunshinemary

    @Rollo

    I have a quick question if you have a moment.

    Recently someone linked to some NIH/CDC data on my site showing that the average number of sexual partners for females is 3ish and for males is 5ish:

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf

    Another study recently completely showed that when women were hooked up to lie detector tests, they admitted to higher numbers of partners, about the same as men, around 5 or 6:

    http://www.livescience.com/34778-men-and-women-lie-about-sex.html

    So my question is this: I believe you when you say that women all have this slut potential within them. And I see with my own two eyes a lot of slutty behavior portrayed online and around campus. How do we reconcile that with the surprisingly low number of total sexual partners? I would have assumed that most women had double-digit Ns at this point, but it seems like not. (I’m really having trouble believing that Ns for either men or women are actually this low – what do you think is going on with those low numbers?)

    @Deti:

    aaaaaaand the female commentariat is strangely silent.

    and

    The women remain silent. I’m waiting.

    while simultaneously:

    Men and women cannot have a frank and explicit online general dialogue about sex and mating from a so-called “game” or “red-pill” perspective at a female-run blog [...] Frankly, I’m not sure that men and women can have that dialogue even at a male run blog.

    There is no pleasing you, is there?

  • Jeremy

    @YaReally

    The thing a woman fears most is judgement. Remove that, and she’ll share all sorts of fucked up shit with you. That chick would tell a guy like Russell Brand her whole sexual history, and proudly.

    Exactly, which is why it is so obvious that her plea to save her marriage is actually based on an entirely false premise. She is not attracted to him, if she was she’d come clean, or have come clean already. She fears judgement by the man she married?? Really? Doesn’t sound like she was ever vulnerable to the man, ever.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Jeremy, while I understand your point regarding women’s N count, I really think that the root of that discontent for men is wanting to get the best a woman has to offer sexually. Of course fidelity and the potential for secure attachment and bonding are very important, but what men want to determine is sexual access above all, especially when he’s betting his future life and family on that access.

    On some level of consciousness men toss out all of the underlying sentimentality and understand the reality that they’re exchanging their current and future resources for that sexual access and want the best bargain for that exchange. If some other man received better sexual service than he will in his investment for the rest of his life, that’s hardly the best bargain he can secure. Thus women have evolved personal and social failsafes (social conventions) to be as secretive about this as possible.

    If this woman’s N count was just one guy, but that guy took her in the ass, gave her facials and basically received enthusiastic porn-star sexual services she genuinely desired to engage in with him, yet wouldn’t give her husband of 7 years so much as a perfunctory blow job, does it really matter if she had gang bangs or 20 men before him? The result is still the same.

  • deti

    We all know what Aunt Giggles would tell our RPReddit commenter in the OP.

    Something like this:

    “You obviously made a poor choice in your spouse. You should shut up, stop your complaining, and live with your mistake; or simply divorce her and take your lumps. Sucks to be you.”

  • Jeremy

    I don’t disagree at all Rollo, which is why my first comment here said this:

    To me the take-away for the women is… N count matters less than our belief that you can be *OUR* slut when committed to us. However, the greater the N, the more obvious it is that you’ll do those things with anybody.

    The N-count only struck me as humorous on a re-reading. This woman was “pleading” to save her marriage. She was giving all outward appearances that her world was ending because her man was misjudging her, but was still unwilling to come clean and take him at his word that the N count mattered less than her attraction ( I believe that was what he was trying to convey).

  • Theodore Logan

    There is nothing in that marriage to save, not even the daughter. He should just go flat out scorched earth on that bitch, leave and divorce.

  • deti

    SSM:

    My point in noting that women are silent on this thread is simply to point out that women aren’t coming here to condemn the clear wrong this woman in the OP perpetrated on her husband. You can’t claim I’m being inconsistent in demanding that women condemn the conduct, because I’m not insisting that debate take place. The wrongfulness of her conduct is simply beyond all debate.

    Nice try, though.

  • earl

    If you are talking about N count and desire.

    As the N count goes up…the desire for future men goes down. Doesn’t mean a woman of say 4 or 5 can’t still desire her husband…but the odds of that happening go down the more dicks she encounters.

    The wise thing for a woman to do is marry the man she desires…and keep her legs shut until that happens. However wisdom is a rare commodity these days

  • Red Hurricane

    My ex wife once told me she had done ass-to-mouth with another man in her past. When I tried to do ti to her a week later she refused. She said explicitly “No, you wouldn’t appreciate it”. I have never felt more rage or shame than I did that day.

    Post divorce we have a friends with benefits sort of relationship. Now that I’m spending all my time and money on improving myself things are quite different. I’ve ass-to-mouthed her many times. And she’s sent thank you texts for ‘the severe ass fucking you inflicted on me last night”.

    I still feel shame though, from that first night and the phrase “you wouldn’t appreciate it”.

  • earl

    @deti…

    Well are they going to do it now that you’ve constantly said these things.

    Demanding women condemn this woman…is like demanding a woman to desire a man she couldn’t care less about. Free will can’t be negotiated.

  • YaReally

    “If this woman’s N count was just one guy, but that guy took her in the ass, gave her facials and basically received enthusiastic porn-star sexual services she genuinely desired to engage in with him, yet wouldn’t give her husband of 7 years so much as a perfunctory blow job, does it really matter if she had gang bangs or 20 men before him? The result is still the same.”

    This. Well said. Like I say, it’s not WHAT she did that’s blown the guy’s mind, it’s that she wouldn’t do it with HIM. That’s why “now you can do her in the ass however you want” doesn’t help him…it’s not the act itself that he wants, it’s her viewing him as sexworthy and WANTING to do that act with him, that he wants. That’s not something he can force or logically convince her into, that’s something that at best he can trigger her hypergamy to want, but even then he’ll doubt it in the back of his mind.

    If it weren’t for his daughter, I would say cut all ties and run because he won’t be able to salvage this. But to avoid breaking up his daughter’s home life, it’s worth trying MMSL to, far down the road, possibly get his wife’s attracted to him (but even then he’ll doubt it and have to decide if he even WANTS her attraction anymore), and/or build in himself the ability/skill-set to get other women and have an open marriage where he can feel like a man again because other women want him.

    To me, hiring prostitutes just reinforces “no woman would want me unless I pay them, I am unattractive and a failure as a man”. VS learning to actually flirt with a cute waitress who ends up wanting to bang him…that’s the kind of shit that could revive his shattered soul.

  • deti

    Earl:

    “ Well are they going to do it now that you’ve constantly said these things.”

    No, they won’t. The only ones who will say anything about this are honest women of integrity like SSM and Sting, who aren’t afraid to acknowledge that most women have this level of sluttery in them.

  • earl

    I don’t mind that women have that level of sluttery in them…as long as the one I pick has that level of sluttery only for me. Problem is that most have been fed a lie that they need “experiences” before they marry. The more experience they have…the more their odds of desiring the next man go down. Settling is a BIG problem in today’s culture.

    Plus a woman that is a prude is no more fun than a depleted slut who wants to retire her jersey.

  • sunshinemary

    SSM and Sting, who aren’t afraid to acknowledge that most women have this level of sluttery in them.

    Oh, indeed, I have no problem reiterating what I said at Donal’s; pretty much all women are Ado Annie and just cain’t say no, if genuine desire is present.

    Moving on.

    A question: several people now have said that it wasn’t WHAT the woman had done, it was that she didn’t then want to do those things with her husband. Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?

  • Jeremy

    Deti,

    It’s not so much the sluttery you want condemned, it’s the fraud. What needs to be condemned is the fact that a woman would let a man believe she was his woman (slut) only for him to discover that not only has she been holding out on him, but she’s been holding out things she easily did for other men.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    As the N count goes up…the desire for future men goes down.

    So goes the conventional wisdom of the manosphere, and I do agree, but this dynamic is specific to women. Men want to secure sexual access and/or assess the cost to benefit ratio of investing their resources into a life pair-bonded to a woman who will provide him with the best sexual service. Aunt Giggles will tell it differently, but for men, desire for future women does not diminish with a higher N count, or rather desire for the best sexual exchange for his provisioning doesn’t diminish.

    And (@SSM too) for the record I’ve never been entirely convinced that a woman’s quantitative N count is more important than the qualitative types of men she’s had sex with in the past. In other words, one prior Alpha partner can be enough to make a woman an Alpha Widow and thus ruins her capacity to bond with a future monogamous partner, while 6-7 Beta sex partners drift off into obscurity when she pair-bonds with a sufficiently Alpha husband or partner.

  • deti

    “I’m really having trouble believing that Ns for either men or women are actually this low – what do you think is going on with those low numbers?”

    I’ll take a crack at that one. I think the average male lifetime N of 5 or 6 is probably accurate. I think women are able to convince themselves that their Ns are lower than they actually are, and can lie convincingly about it. I think they can lie so convincingly about it that they can even deceive themselves into believing their Ns are lower than they are. Another factor is sex while intoxicated and the distorted memories and perceptions associated with it. I suspect a lot of women don’t remember a good portion of the sex or the sex partners they’ve had. Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable and can be defeated. Another thing to keep in mind is the relative ease with which women can secure sex, and the relative difficulty for most men in securing sex.

  • Jeremy

    @sunshinemary

    Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?

    All you have to do as a wife is convince me that I can have your body anytime I want, any way I want, and I’ll build you a home on Mars before I’ll worry about other guys. Think of the low-gravity on your figure!

  • Cautiously Pessimistic

    She said explicitly “No, you wouldn’t appreciate it”. I have never felt more rage or shame than I did that day.

    I think, for better or worse, western men have been conditioned not to care about a woman’s past sexual history. In my opinion, that’s a bad thing, but that’s beside the point. What men do care about and care about quite deeply is that their wife did stuff with other men that she won’t do with him. Because he’s not worth it. Because she doesn’t think of him in that way. Because she’s not that way anymore (not with him, anyway).

    That’s something visceral right there. Best not to be in that situation, or to get out of it if you find yourself in that situation.

  • deti

    “Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?”

    It might be. As long as I’m going to be expected to pay full freight and buy the cow, I want the same quality milk. I want to have what everyone else got to have.

  • aaron

    Quite a story. Of course, this won’t be consciously calculated on her part, just her following her instinct – or feelings. It’s completely right that her only aim is maintaining the situation for herself with absolutely no regard for how it could impact him. All trust has been lost – unwise it would be to back.

  • Stingray

    several people now have said that it wasn’t WHAT the woman had done, it was that she didn’t then want to do those things with her husband. Is that really true?

    In relative terms, yes. What she did was not only a deep betrayal, but it was an enormous slam directly to his masculinity and his manhood. Being a past slut is bad, but if she is honest about it, she gives him a choice. But the dig to his manhood is all but unrecoverable.

  • Stingray

    It’s scary, and fascinating.

    Holy crap. Yes, scary and fascinating. And just sad.

  • earl

    “Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?”

    It’s a red flag…but geniue non-negotiated desire can cover faults. Actions speak louder than words.

  • deti

    SSM:

    Most women believe that the only sex partners who count towards their N are sober, P in V sex, completed to ejaculation, within a relationship. Most women don’t believe the following count:

    -sex while intoxicated
    -sexual conduct involving anything other than P in V
    -one night stands or flings
    -incomplete P in V sex

  • livingtree2013

    Hey Rollo, another very interesting post! And this time, I 100% agree. However, I stopped sympathizing with buddy’s plight after this line:

    “She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but [I REALLY LIKED HER] and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, [IT NEVER GOT ANY BETTER] but [I LEARNED TO GET OVER IT].”

    Unbelievable. Do you not see the problem here?

    He “really liked her”, which is great I guess, but the point is, from the start he was not getting his needs met. This man has habituated himself to put his needs aside in favor of hers. A BAD DECISION on his part, which was predicated, no doubt, by some deep-seated desire to be her hero, to put his needs aside so she could be happy. Total bullshit.

    Now tell me, what kind of dumbass would follow through and MARRY someone who wasn’t meeting his/her needs??? Oh, that’s right – hundreds of millions of dumbasses. It seriously annoys me that we’re all so accustomed to thinking this kind of relationship dynamic is supposed to be normal. This is not what happens in a healthy relationship!!! And the really sad part is that YOU GUYS FEEL BAD FOR HIM, I assume that must be because you’ve done it too.

    I also don’t feel too bad for guy when he chooses to take on HER insecurities about sex as a statement of HIS desirability. Talk about neurotic, holy crap. Like it has anything to do with him.

    Rollo, you claim in this article that “every man” wants a slut for his very own, while completely missing out on the fact that every part of our world is telling us that sluts are evil and disposable… and you yourselves on this forum here say so many things that support this viewpoint!

    We grow up learning, by so many means, that women who are sexually active are undesirable to men as long-term mates. What we see is proof, everywhere, that women who are comfortable with their sexuality are… alone. So if women want to find said mate, we better not display sexual desire, especially not any wild stuff. So this is why they hide it.

    This is an essential part of understanding the female psychology, and I cannot believe you don’t understand this. Its got absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. It has everything to do with the fact that “slut” is used as a highly derogatory term, and it has so MUCH evidence of history behind it!

    Or should I say, the only thing it has to do with you is that, by your actions and words, you aren’t making her BELIEVE that you wouldn’t judge her if she cut loose.

    This is Female Psychology, grade 1 coursework.

    Seriously. Don’t you realize how screwed up some women are about judgement over being sexual???? The woman in this story, and so very many others as well, is clearly very messed up about sex, and clearly was from the first day he met her. So this is what I keep saying to you guys – make better choices!!! Its your whole life you’re expected to give to someone. You want things to change??? Here is a great place to start.

    Unless sex is something that isn’t important to you, then find a woman who is comfortable with her sexuality, or make her believe you want one who is. If a sexually available woman is something you really want as a partner, you need to back that up with action!!!

    You need to stop making sexually available women into disposable commodities, because that just reinforces the belief that they aren’t worthy of being loved, which we learn from the age of three.

    You need to start making real decisions in your life that tell women you think being sexually available is something you, personally, find attractive, not something they should be ashamed of.

    You need to think about the consequences of your actions and your casual statements upon the world around you.

    And you need to understand that “whore” is a term that should never, ever be used outside of the bedroom, in any way besides affectionately.

    But be aware, you can say whatever you like about what you want, and about respect and whatever blah blah, but actions speak a LOT louder than words. If you don’t mean it, women will always see it in your actions. The truth always comes out.

    Jesus, this one got me worked up, I might have to write another article about this.

    OK, I’m ready. Bring it on.

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