Saving the Best

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To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.

I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.

I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.

I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.

Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?

Her: Why are we talking about this?

Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?

Her: are you taking drugs?

Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.

She starts crying.

Me: Do you have anything to say?

She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.

Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.

She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut

Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.

She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.

She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.

Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.

She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.

Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.

She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you

Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.

Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.

I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.

I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.

As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.

I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.

Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”

I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.

I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.

Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.

There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.

As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.

There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.

Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.

The Best of Her

The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.

Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.

Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.

Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.

One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.

I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.

I Want You to Want Me

Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

[…] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change

What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.

He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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earl
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earl
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“-sex while intoxicated”

The sugary chick drinks made her do it.

“-sexual conduct involving anything other than P in V”

Because that isn’t “techincal” sex.

“-one night stands or flings”

Because when it happens in a different zip code or a place nobody knows her…that was her alter ego getting the lovin’.

“-incomplete P in V sex”

Whiskey dick is his fault.

And the serpent tricked Eve into eating the apple too.

Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 …from the start he was not getting his needs met. This man has habituated himself to put his needs aside in favor of hers… This is species-wide double-speak. When men are not spending all their attention on women, we’re derided as selfish and shallow. when we put our needs aside for women, we’re somehow broken. At some point you have to face facts that men have some instinctive desire to ignore their own pain in favor of taking care of their wife and kids, and that will get in the way of their own happiness to a large extent… Read more »

earl
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“Jesus, this one got me worked up, I might have to write another article about this.

OK, I’m ready. Bring it on.”

I love it when you talk dirty during foreplay.

deti
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Living Tree: Um, no. The problems here are that the woman in the OP lied to her husband about her N. She was never attracted to her husband. She is lying about being attracted to her husband so as to preserve the provisioning she receives from him. She has no problem being sexual. She simply doesn’t want to be sexual with her husband, because she’s not attracted to him. Your suggestion that women are screwed up about judgmentalism over sexuality misses the mark. She doesn’t care if this man judges her or not; so long as she doesn’t have to… Read more »

Tin Man
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Actually, I really like this discussion, but I’m going to say this one thing, then I have to meet a woman for a drink … My mother used to say “What’s done is did and can’t be undid” which is a line from a play she was in. Meaning, you change it, you can only take this new information and decide what you’re going to do with it. And for all those Men saying “I could never…” this is a personal choice (and it is personal to the core). I wouldn’t condemn him for working on his marriage or for… Read more »

deti
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Living Tree: So as to preserve some semblance of credibility, please answer this question: Do you condemn and denounce this woman’s fundamental dishonesty and fraud as Jeremy outlined above? Do you denounce her intentional lying to her husband about her N and her intentional and deliberate withholding of sex from her husband? This guy just wanted his wife to suck his dick and she refuses him; while he then runs across a video which simultaneously proves beyond all doubt his wife is an unrepentant liar and an enthusiastic participant in all manner of sexual conduct – with men she deems… Read more »

redpillsetmefree
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He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus.
Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.

Best summation of what women are thinking. Still can’t understand why men get married at all.

Tin Man
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As an aside, I wonder what witness protection program she entered – to change her story that much to her husband. But, there were lots of things I didn’t know about my wife before we married. She only brought up the two kids she gave up for adoption because one of them had reached out to her – saying they wanted meet her and she was afraid they would show up at the door one day.

Past lives are very interesting. Still no excuse for not coming clean and/or lying to begin with.

earl
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Well for me marriage is the only legit place you can have sex…otherwise it is a sin. That would be my motivation along with having a family.

But I’m the oddity now…when this used to be the norm. And even with my personal feelings on how I regard marriage…I wouldn’t advise it for any guy unless he knows full well what he is getting into.

I’d rather do more productive things with my time on this planet and let the chips fall where they may.

earl
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“Women just get terribly upset when I deconstruct the mechanics behind it so men are better prepared for it.”

Ah the innate sexuality…otherwise known as the “feminine mystique”.

Women never tell men this stuff and I wouldn’t expect them too. So they get mad when a guy talks about it and could care less about their feelings.

Jeremy
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@earl Well for me marriage is the only legit place you can have sex…otherwise it is a sin. That would be my motivation along with having a family. I think about this from time to time. Probably because I used to be religious, but not any more. Also because I still occasionally meet women who are honest-to-god virgins (or at least as close as anyone could possibly venture to verify without an exam using some nitrile). After going red-pill, the female virgin is actually a hot potato, an enigma that’s difficult to reconcile. I can’t find a solution, because I… Read more »

Tin Man
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@LT… You’d be surprised at how accommodating Men can be with regard to a woman’s sexual past. In fact, we can (and do, as evidenced by this story, and probably countless others) turn a blind eye to it. I knew my wife was on the slutty side – hell our relationship started out as a ONS – and she was more than willing to throw me under the bus and start looking for my replacement (and I still wanted her to be my wife). Oh, Men may be rough and hard around the edges, but once committed to something, it… Read more »

livingtree2013
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I’m not saying she isn’t a liar Jeremy, I’m not saying she isn’t completely selfish, or that she isn’t at fault. He was not defrauded though, I will not concede that point. Call it victim blaming if you need to, but she was a mess right from the start, from the VERY beginning. She never once gave him what he wanted, or ever gave him any impression that she would ever be what he wanted, so why would he ever think that it was a wise investment? WHAT THE FUCK???? I’m going to go all metaphorical on you now. Lets… Read more »

roe
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@Livingtree2013: Your argument, as I understand it, is follows:

This woman’s anti-slut conditioning was too weak to keep her from gangbanging 5 guys on camera, but was too strong to overcome to give her husband a blowjob.

Further, the husband is responsible for not getting what he wanted from her, but she was helpless in the face of her anti-slut conditioning.

Is that a fair summary?

By any chance, are you familiar with the terms “hyperagency” and “hypoagency”?

Jeremy
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@LT He was not defrauded though, I will not concede that point. If you won’t concede that, we’re at another philosophical impasse. The male in a relationship gets access to the woman’s, any blockage of that access is fraud. If you get access to the fruit of my labor, I get access to your body. That’s the deal. She’s a liar, she committed to the man without telling him her sexual past while telling him she would not do certain things. She let him believe she wouldn’t do them because of any other reason then the truth. She committed marital… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Of course I denounce it Deti, its repulsive! She married this poor guy under false pretenses, so she could pretend to herself that she was something other than what she was. She feels ashamed by what she did in the past, so much so that it is stifling her ability to even admit that she wants to be sexual! What really angers me is that even now, 60 years after the supposed “sexual revolution”, so many women still feel deeply ashamed about having sexual needs, that they have to cover them up and lie about them. And her husband is… Read more »

livingtree2013
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I am going to stand on this platform and scream it until you listen.

IF YOU WANT TO MARRY SOMEONE THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR PAST HIDDEN FROM, OR THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBJUGATE YOUR NEEDS TO BE WITH, YOU ARE MAKING THE WRONG CHOICE.

Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 She feels ashamed by what she did in the past, so much so that it is stifling her ability to even admit that she wants to be sexual! What really angers me is that even now, 60 years after the supposed “sexual revolution”, so many women still feel deeply ashamed about having sexual needs, that they have to cover them up and lie about them. That’s pure conflation. You’re conflating being ashamed of having sexual needs, with being ashamed of sexual deeds. They are night-and-day different things. Shame over choices you made is appropriate and without such shame we… Read more »

pdwalker
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Good Lord in Heaven

What a nightmare.

This man chose poorly, overlooked the obvious danger signs and is now suffering the consequences.

Paternity test, divorce, learn and move on. This marriage can never recover

Singl4life
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@LT

The conveniently forgotten part of you metaphor which I’ll fill in now is that your investor finds out that he is the only one quoted that risk assessment for the same investment engine that every prior investor got guaranteed returns on for minimal risk. Who wouldn’t feel cheated by such a revalation?

The problem wasn’t that he made an uneducated choice. It’s that he was fed false information from day one. Essentially there SHOULD have been great returns on his investment. Due to favoritism, they were withheld.

livingtree2013
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Apologies, Rollo, I didn’t mean to cast you in that net. YOU may not feel that way personally, as is evident in your work, but unfortunately you are not among the majority I suspect. I have seen more than enough evidence among the comments on these articles that tells me there is still much slut-shaming to be done. And so this is the point of my message. That, I think, is the real shame. Indeed I would say that many women are far too uncomfortable with their own sexuality to even entertain having a calm, open-minded conversation about it with… Read more »

Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 I am going to stand on this platform and scream it until you listen. IF YOU WANT TO MARRY SOMEONE THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR PAST HIDDEN FROM, OR THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBJUGATE YOUR NEEDS TO BE WITH, YOU ARE MAKING THE WRONG CHOICE. What is this, are we back to AOL days when caps lock somehow made a point more worthy of listening to? The man was defrauded. The marital commitment is one of committing a lifetime of work, provisioning and protection (for the man) in exchange for reproduction services, sexual services, and feminine support that… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Great post, Tin Man. I’ve long suspected as much. smile
Men try to pretend their all simple and and unaffected and whatever, but I know the truth, they are really very emotionally complex. Probably much more so than women, if the truth were told.

Women are not emotionally complex, they’re just messy, messy from the shit of the world. If there were less shit in the world, or if we could rise above it rather than be brought down so easily by it… well, lets just say this site would have no reason to exist.

livingtree2013
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No, Roe, you missed the point completely. Anti-slut conditioning isn’t really enough to make women not want to have crazy sex. It may actually make them want to have crazy sex even more, just to be deviant. They just feel shamed about it when they do, because of the anti-slut conditioning.

Then, they choose to marry men who don’t want whores, because it can make them forget (temporarily) about the fact that they might actually be one.

Isn’t that dreadfully obvious?? I thought so.

Adonis
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This post is so raw, touches the bones of my spirit, and justifies every action I have been taking the last 8 years.

Thank you

YOHAMI
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LT,

What are you talking about, really.

He accepted her as a non-sexual person. He married that person, hoping to warm her up to sex eventually.

She turned out to be a very sexual person, just not with him. She likes and enjoys sex wilder than he would have wanted, she just didnt see him in that light.

If she hadnt withholded that information he would probably not have married her. Full stop.

Got it?

Their marriage is a fraud.

trackback

[…] here at Cigars and Legs don’t usually post relationship style things, but this story about a lying wife just… struck us as odd. That’s […]

YOHAMI
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The anti slut defense is needed, even without a moral or religious reason. A slut is more likely to cheat and trade up or look up for strange, and is more likely to be an immature emotional reck.

For the same reason girls have the anti-player defense when it comes down to relationships.

The difference is that players are usually alphas, thus attractive. While sluts come in any variety.

Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 Great post, Tin Man. I’ve long suspected as much. Men try to pretend their all simple and and unaffected and whatever, but I know the truth, they are really very emotionally complex. Probably much more so than women, if the truth were told. You got that men are emotionally complicated creatures from what Tin Man said? Do you only come here to read what you want to think into what other people write? Anti-slut conditioning isn’t really enough to make women not want to have crazy sex. It may actually make them want to have crazy sex even more,… Read more »

roe
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roe
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@LivingTree2013 – Thanks for taking the time to engage (multiple assailants at once, no less!) Frankly, no, it’s not obvious to me at all. Debating gender often falls to these misunderstandings, because men & women have such vastly different experiences of these things. The idea that a woman would act in a completely unrestrained manner with men who don’t care much about her, and deny that to the man who displayed love and sacrifice to her is *completely counter-intuitive* to me. And to be blunt I feel *really bad* for the man in this situation, and a little resentment towards… Read more »

hrm
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He reposted his thread in reddit, and also mentioned he filed for divorce. There was a post on roosh forum about it a week ago. About 60% of the people on reddit thought they were getting trolled with the story, and were angry with him. There was a guy who posted a thread a year ago in a city search forum about how he married a woman and found out she did blowjob trains in college, and how he couldn’t go on. Most of the comments there were angry with him as well, telling him he didn’t deserve her. It’s… Read more »

redpillsetmefree
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*sigh* Marriage is a contract, a license must be signed, registered with the state, and there are a myriad number of laws constructed around dissolving it if one or both parties wants out.. Besides a record label contract as a new recording artist, marriage is probably the number one contract that is consistently entered into in bad faith. Yet, somehow, the woman is protected from any and all consequences. She is also not required to have performed her wedding vows at any time during the marriage. Cash and prizes will be awarded regardless of contract fulfillment. This is nothing but… Read more »

livingtree2013
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I think this is just a technical sticking point, not a philosophical impasse. We can get through this one Jeremy, don’t give up yet! lol… Is that the deal Jeremy? Did they make that deal when they married? I bet no-one ever has that type of understanding when they marry, they just make assumptions. Oh, the list of doomed couples I could list here… Plus, going back to our last argument, this is exactly why women wanted that dastardly “independence”, so they wouldn’t be bound by the confines of the trade, the trade in which they only had one thing… Read more »

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[…] Saving the Best. […]

livingtree2013
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Sure, OK you make an interesting point there Jeremy, but I think that more likely than not, the “deed” was committed out of a pre-existing sense of shame, it is exactly what motivated her behavior. Why would she say “I’m a dirty whore” in the video if it wasn’t about shaming? I wouldn’t be even the tiniest bit surprised if before the video was made, she’d already been date-raped, and taken the blame for it, so the experience made her have some deeply suppressed feelings of unworthiness. This chick is messed UP, I’m telling you. What he should do, this… Read more »

YOHAMI
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LT,

For all she knew, if she had told him about her past, he would up and leave her.

It would have happened for sure before marriage.

Please reverse the genders in your mind and re apply. Feminism is getting the best of your reasoning.

YOHAMI
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LT,

For all she knew, if she had told him about her past, he would up and leave her.

It would have happened for sure before marriage.
Please reverse the genders in your mind and re apply. Feminism is getting the best of your reasoning.

jynxi
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This poor man never had a marriage. He doesn’t have one now and never will have one with this woman. This woman pulled the ultimate cuntery-of-a-scam on this poor fellow. She willfully used him as a financial-slush-fund to lock in a lifestyle she knows she damn well does not deserve. The baby, if it’s even his, is nothing more than a grappling-hook that she used to secure said funds for squanderous use in a planned future lifestyle (Away from Hubby, back to the boys-in-the-band). It’s all part of her diabolical plan. Don’t be fooled. No woman on earth would keep… Read more »

Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 Is that the deal Jeremy? Did they make that deal when they married? I bet no-one ever has that type of understanding when they marry, they just make assumptions. Oh, the list of doomed couples I could list here… That absolutely is the deal. Would you ever stick with a man who would not provide for you even after you shared your bed with him regularly? Of course you wouldn’t. Neither should a man stick with a woman after discovering she was holding out on him. Plus, going back to our last argument, this is exactly why women wanted… Read more »

YOHAMI
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LT,

Shame is at the core of it, I concede you that.

I wouldn’t be even the tiniest bit surprised if before the video was made, she’d already been date-raped

Like everything in feminism, rape explains it all. Do you get a high thinking about it?

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@ livingtree2013 Sure, OK you make an interesting point there Jeremy, but I think that more likely than not, the “deed” was committed out of a pre-existing sense of shame, it is exactly what motivated her behavior. Why would she say “I’m a dirty whore” in the video if it wasn’t about shaming?… This chick is messed UP, I’m telling you. You’re creating a distraction again. You’re shifting focus to the woman being messed up and some kind of “victim”. That the woman has issues is not in question, her behavior within a marriage contract is the issue. She lied.… Read more »

redpillsetmefree
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This situation is Game Over. Again, it is a contract that was entered into in bad faith, and there are only enforceable benefits for one side.
The emotional contract between spouses….yet again an area where people are lying through their teeth from day one. And again, in this situation, only one spouse can have her desire fulfilled, Beta bucks….the husband can never have his true desire. Ever.

There is no salvaging this marriage, because there has been a Point of No Return discovery.

livingtree2013
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I don’t disagree with you there Singl4life, you’re absolutely correct, and I fully understand why he feels cheated. I feel bad for him, I really do, I’m just being a hard-ass here. But my point is, while yes there should have been great returns on his investment, he easily could have seen those returns with ANY NUMBER of other investment choices! Instead, he chose to forgo those great returns… and forgo the return that he really wanted… in exchange for something he… didn’t? want? I guess? And whats worse, he did so on the (admittedly false) premise that he was… Read more »

Vektor
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Vektor
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Another tragic case of a ‘nice guy’ learning the hard way. If he wasn’t getting what he needed from the start, why the hell did he marry her? The sexual history isn’t the primary issue. It’s the lies. She lied about her past. Accused him of being on drugs when he confronted her. What else is she lying about or hasn’t been discovered yet? He needs to get a paternity test immediately. If he didn’t have a kid, I would suggest immediate divorce. No counseling, no trial anything. However, he does, so he has a decision to make. The relationship… Read more »

OffTheCuff
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OffTheCuff
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*If* this is real… then the dude handled it badly by blowing up so quickly. YaReally got it. The right attitude would be nonjudgmental about it at first, hard as it may be. As in: “We should do that, you and me” and see where it goes. Does she change of her own accord, which would validate her story, or does it stay the same? There is a slight chance that she isn’t just lying or not attracted, but honestly felt what made her “slutty” wasn’t the gangbang, but the blowjob and enthusiasm itself, even for one person. So, to… Read more »

AKA
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AKA
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I’m guessing that the wife in question was hot and out of the husband’s league. That’s why he’s been afraid to demand better sex all along. If he would have married someone of lower SMV he never would have tolerated the substandard sex. He would have told her gag on his dick or he would leave her. Don’t confuse my theory with the idea that the wife is anything but a horrible woman. Clearly this woman has the moral compass of Satan. All I’m saying is that married men have got to stop treating the women like delicate little flowers.… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Jeremy if you’re just going to get irate about every controversial comment I make, then we might as well stop talking because you may have already noticed, I am controversial almost all the time, just for the sake of opening up the discussion. I read what you said, I read what everyone here said, I just (like usual) think that we are limiting ourselves to a superficial reading of the situation. People are intricately complex, and that complexity provides endless sources for analysis, if only we are willing to go to that depth. If you don’t want to go there,… Read more »

Theodore Logan
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Theodore Logan
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@livingtree2013 I don’t know what kind of world you live in, but here in the real world, it is male sexuality that is demonized and female sexuality is seen as empowerment since at least 1960 to present.

Though I agree with the first half of your response. His needs were clearly not being met, and yet he wrongly decided against his own best interest to stay with her for 7 years too long.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 Jeremy if you’re just going to get irate about every controversial comment I make, then we might as well stop talking because you may have already noticed, I am controversial almost all the time, just for the sake of opening up the discussion. I would go with illogical. People are intricately complex, and that complexity provides endless sources for analysis, if only we are willing to go to that depth. If you don’t want to go there, I can certainly pander to you if you’d prefer. I would like to think that we’d all like to become better at… Read more »

Morpheus
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@Jeremy, while I understand your point regarding women’s N count, I really think that the root of that discontent for men is wanting to get the best a woman has to offer sexually. Rollo, I think you’ve nailed it here. Taking it one step further, I think it is connected to the idea of a “fair trade” taking place. In a sense there is no higher compliment or greater gift a man (especially a higher SMV man with options) can give a woman than to make her his wife essentially making the proclamation I choose you over all others and… Read more »

Morpheus
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Morpheus
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LT,

May I suggest rereading and editing your comments prior to posting them. I honestly cannot follow some of your comments because they are basically a stream of consciousness of non-sequiturs.

Shaman
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Shaman
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@Rollo “I realize how twisted this is going to sound, but I can’t help but wonder if the commonness of situations like this aren’t somehow influencing the increased popularity of internet cuckold porn.” I can tell you from first hand experience that this is EXACTLY what’s increasing the popularity of cuckold porn. I’m ashamed as hell to even admit it, but prior to swallowing the red pill, cuckold porn sucked me in. Shitty sex life with the wife, no physical affection at all, her flirting with my friends, me beta as shit, and before you know it I’m having these… Read more »

Senior Beta
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Senior Beta
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Rollo, one of your best. Now I see why you were not so intrigued by my ideas for a new post. Anything that gets a debate going with Deti and YaReally is first rate.

livingtree2013
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Yohami, I’m not sure I get your point. Reverse that how? Like as in to say, if a man told his future wife about his sexual escapades prior to their marriage, would she leave him? That can’t possibly be a serious question. Women expect men will have whored around prior to marriage. Even my extremely religious grandmother knew about my granddad before they married that he was a drunken brawler and a scamp. After marriage, completely different story of course, he was as upright as anyone I’ve ever met. Point being, women don’t even bat an eyelash when men whore… Read more »

Morpheus
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Morpheus
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I think that both of them are at fault, although for considerably different reasons, both of which are interesting and worthy of discussing. Why? Because he naively bought the bullshit he was fed for probably decades. Let me tell you something. Most men grow up and most confrontation is physical and direct. Not a lot of men get practice in their teens like women at deception, and playing games, etc. So when a guy hits his 20s he is ill-equipped to either recognize or deal with the sort of Machiavellian fraud many women are capable of with a straight face.… Read more »

Tin Man
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@LT “Women are not emotionally complex, they’re just messy, messy from the shit of the world. If there were less shit in the world, or if we could rise above it rather than be brought down so easily by it… well, lets just say this site would have no reason to exist.” There is a subtle different here – and a point that Rollo made in the post, and has made several times, that until I started reading (Manosphere blogs) and learning (about red pill) – I really had not clue – and it why, there are many, many Men… Read more »

Tin Man
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@livingtree2013 Great post, Tin Man. I’ve long suspected as much. Men try to pretend their all simple and and unaffected and whatever, but I know the truth, they are really very emotionally complex. Probably much more so than women, if the truth were told. @Jeremy You got that men are emotionally complicated creatures from what Tin Man said? Do you only come here to read what you want to think into what other people write? I don’t know if that’s what I said or not…but I guess that’s how was interrupted. And to tell you the truth, I’m not trying… Read more »

Theodore Logan
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Theodore Logan
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@livingtree2013 As long as women always see men as a walking wallet/ATM machine to exploit and dispose, and feminism remains a force of influence over modern social laws and mores, red pill men will always see women as the said disposable commodity you speak of until some sort of social collapse happens and then the real fun begins.

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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But I do have to say…

Ole LT has gotten the Boys all riled up!! She showed up Rollo’s comments have blown up. And the stars have come out to play!!

YaReally
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YaReally
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@Shaman I find it fascinating that your porn interests warped over time to essentially reflect what your brain perceives as “this is the limit to what I can expect from my sex life” in your reality. I wonder if single guys watch freakier and a wider variety of porn with a wider variety of girls in them than incel marriage guys…and if “reality porn” with average/plain girls tends to be viewed more by guys without game who’s brains tell them that an average looking semi-chubby normal chick is the limit of what they can expect from their sex life. Thanks… Read more »

Morpheus
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This is one of the hardest things to swallow about the red pill. I don’t remember which article, but I remember Rollo talking about how men just want somewhere they can relax…but then it turns out that we were fed the lie that once we have a girl who loves us, we can relax with her, and it’s encouraged that we do…except no one told us the truth: that she’ll lose attraction for us. The Game doesn’t end. That’s why it’s all the more important for guys to learn and internalize this shit when they’re young, so by the time… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@ Morpheus

The movie you’re thinking of is Fireproof
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireproof_%28film%29

It’s like corporate training for hypergamy.

livingtree2013
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Arggh, Jeremy I can’t reply to this tonight, I’m going to have to think on this, more than I can offer you tonight. Its late, I’m tired, I’ve barely eaten, I’m frustrated, and there’s a blizzard going on outside. I have to get on the road.
Talk more tomorrow.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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Take your time LT. I’d rather you think before writing than not.

M3
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M3
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She’d make a good candidate for cheating on him.

“Unsurprisingly, 81 per cent said that they are more sexually experimental with their lovers than their spouses.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2517624/Would-cheat-husband-wears-socks-sex-The-reasons-women-seeking-affairs-revealed.html

BlackPoisonSoul
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@Shaman – take it over the edge and enjoy it. As you say, she can deal or GTFO. I’m still astonished that you guys are bothering to try and educate that retarded LivingTree. It’s like you haven’t yet figured that anything coming out of a woman’s mouth has only one purpose: to deceive you into her frame. Even when she’s agreeing, especially when she’s arguing, and most especially when she’s trying to achieve a consensus or compromise. The problem when you compromise is that you have walked away from the truth – what is real. You have been lured into… Read more »

BC
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BC
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My first impression was that LT showed up (again) and the comment section went to shit (again), but it’s just. too. damn. funny. reading the trainwreck.

I salute your comment policy, Rollo.

orion
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orion
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“Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.”

I am glad I found sites like these a long time a long time ago, because, Jesus, that could have been me.

Easily.

Never Mind the Balzac
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Never Mind the Balzac
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There is no “Soul Mate”

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm5pf1uRyYE&w=640&h=360]

redpillsetmefree
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Aaaaaaaand let’s hear from a professional:
http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/on-a-mountaintop/

earl
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earl
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LT gets her male attention for the day. @ Jeremy “Yet at the same time the world has changed so much with the advent of female birth control, how do I not demand she put some skin in the game? How does one verify she’s not just going to be holding out on you forever like the poor guy in this post by Rollo, without convincing her to notch an N for your sake?” Birth control is definitely the big game changer. However I still stick with the Bible teaching when it comes to fornication….because that never changes. And by… Read more »

T the B
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“What really angers me is that even now, 60 years after the supposed “sexual revolution”, so many women still feel deeply ashamed about having sexual needs, that they have to cover them up and lie about them” Hey ho, arse-about-tit as per usual. The reason that women lie about their shagging mileage, so many years after their supposed liberation, is (despite mens’ best efforts to enable their professed desire for independence) because they have money needs, not sex needs. Women have a steely determination to depend on Other Buggers’ Efforts which defies all reason and looks set to continue to… Read more »

YOHAMI
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YOHAMI
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Morpheus,

Many women want to simultaneously keep men in the dark about various aspects of female nature and psychology, yet also hold him partially responsible in situations like this when he didn’t know any better.

Depending to what’s convenient each time.

LT even tried to make this woman look like the victim – she might have been date raped! so blaming her would be victim blaming.

Even though I know this is how it works it still fries my brain.

shaze
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shaze
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“And you need to understand that “whore” is a term that should never, ever be used outside of the bedroom, in any way besides affectionately.”

This could not be more incorrect.

earl
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earl
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While it behooves men to know the nature of women…it is also wise that IRL they don’t go spreading around they know what women are up to. Unless you enjoy getting into illogical arguments with women who just want your attention.

Shenpen
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Shenpen
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@nipnup I totally understand it. Your mistake is that you assume every man wants sex and primarily sex. This guy may want a family life more than sex. I actually don’t really like sex much. I like being a husband, dad, having a normal home, family life, normalcy, having a reliable ally type of wife, and generally having a set of duties that give me aim and direction in life. We both are pretty much asexual – see it like bowel movements, a disgusting but necessary function of the body – although managed to do it because we want kids… Read more »

deti
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deti
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“Long, long way to go and who knows if the marriage will ultimately succeed or not, but the truth is I simply no longer care. I now speak my mind, hold nothing back, piss her off on a daily basis and care less and less whether she gives a shit” It’s a hell of a thing, isn’t it? Counterintuitive as all get out. Sometimes the only way to save a marriage is to stop caring about whether it is salvageable. Sometimes the only way to save a marriage is to stop trying to save it. Sometimes the only way to… Read more »

earl
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earl
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Counterintuitive is pretty much how you deal with women.

M3
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M3
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@sunshinemary “Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?” I’d accept it, to a limit tho. If she enjoyed performing with me as much as on the video, at least she’d be consistent. It might leave a sour taste in my mouth but i accept there is no ‘the one’. Depending on age, i wouldn’t expect who i was with to be sitting in her locked tower waiting for me to one day come… Read more »

deti
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deti
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Morpheus, 12/3, 11:09 pm Spot on, steel on target. The argument Susan Walsh and like minded women often make is usually something like this: “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that you guys were fed a load of BS. But come on, guys! You lived in the real world! You were getting rejected and saw the bad boys and the dickbags getting laid left and right! How come you didn’t figure it out? “You should have ignored everything everyone else was telling you. You should have defied your parents and told them to piss up a rope. You should have deliberately… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@BlackPoisonSoul

I’m still astonished that you guys are bothering to try and educate that retarded LivingTree. It’s like you haven’t yet figured that anything coming out of a woman’s mouth has only one purpose: to deceive you into her frame. Even when she’s agreeing, especially when she’s arguing, and most especially when she’s trying to achieve a consensus or compromise.

Yes, but understand, LivingTree doesn’t understand that that’s her own purpose. She believes she’s being rational.

I was actually more shocked that Kate thought LT had valid points than anything else.

deti
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deti
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“What gets me is many women, such as yourself or someone like Aunt Giggles (see Deti’s comment) want to blame the guy when he selects a woman of “bad character”yet at the same time demonize Rollo and what he is trying to do here in shining a spotlight on all the various things women are capable of. Many women want to simultaneously keep men in the dark about various aspects of female nature and psychology, yet also hold him partially responsible in situations like this when he didn’t know any better.”

Exactly right.

redpillsetmefree
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Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too? No. Some guys may say that they wouldn’t care, but that’s simply not true. Men are visual, and the shock of seeing her not only doing it, but enjoying it(which is where the real pain comes from for men), would be something that you would never get past. Even if she did it with you, you’d never be able to get rid of the nagging questions…..what… Read more »

New Yorker
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New Yorker
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This is just a lazy shlub who never wanted to face reality. I feel bad for him on a personal level because this is a heartbreaking situation. However, with so many clear red flags in prior behavior, the only lesson we should draw is to take life seriously and not settle for anything except what we really want. The woman is just a disingenuous bitch, but the reason we have a victim is because he willingly let himself become one. Otherwise, she would be trolling for a different sucker.

M3
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M3
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@ Rollo

“LT will never appreciate the red pill perspective because her life’s conditioning has been one of denying the evolved psychology, biological predispositions and hardwired neurological vestiges that influences human behavior today.”

CH’s post yesterday on brain pattern science must have sent her over the edge.

Vektor
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Vektor
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It’s probably too late for this marriage, but this may help the guy in the future: http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339 I feel bad for the guy and even worse for the daughter. However, he is an example of the pathology of the ‘Nice Guy’ that infects so many men in the world. It is the nice guys that are the betas in the ‘beta bucks’ side of the equation. Most of the white knights in the world are also nice guys. It is a disease that enables much of the bad behavior of women, and it is the nice guys/betas that financially support… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@earl And how does one verify…well how much does she try to paw at you when she gets the chance…or pursue you…or do things for you. You don’t need to have sex before marriage to see how much she desires you. I’d rather leave God’s commandments out of this, if only because Rollo and others have outlined perfectly valid reasons for women to want to protect their virginity even if religion never existed. I would say that that is not verification. I’ve actually witnessed friends *and* family fall prey to women who were extraordinarily “hot-to-trot” (but chaste) while dating, only… Read more »

M3
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M3
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It’s obvious the guy in the story fell in love with her and did the ‘feminine imperative’, feminist approved right thing to do every step of the way.. Not press for her for the sex he wanted Not be a dick and respect her boundaries To repress his beastly sexual oppression of wanting her to give him a blowjob.. that animal To accept her ‘as she is’, faults and all Respect her needs and wishes What kind of sick twisted fuck are you to think of NEXTing such a wonderful woman because she won’t sex you up like you want… Read more »

M3
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M3
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Jeremey said:
“I’ve actually witnessed friends *and* family fall prey to women who were extraordinarily “hot-to-trot” (but chaste) while dating, only to turn into icebergs after marriage. My brother had this happen to him with his first wife, she was totally eager to engage in everything up to the deed before, but when married they had sex like twice a year or some such.”

And they say guys who use game to trick a women into bed are manipulative…

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@New Yorker I tend to agree. Being blind and unaware of your surroundings is not the mark of a victim, it the mark the next antelope that kills. There are not victims, we are the makers of our lives – that is first thing this Man will have to realize. It was his choice to first date then marry this woman – from what I can gather, this was not an arranged marriage – there were no guns pointed at his head. It was still a choice. Once again, this should be a cautionary tale to any Man that is… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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The good news is they divorced about as amicably as you’ve ever seen. No kids, assets split down the middle, no alimony. He still lost out on the deal, because he paid for her degree in accounting.

Morpheus
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Morpheus
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We don’t care about your problems; we care only that you are there to be boyfriends, husbands, packmules and servants for OUR needs, how we need you, when we need you. Deti, I think you just crafted the clearest, most concise definition of the feminine imperative. Sadly, this basically summarizes the HUS “mission” as well. With the new echo chamber of comments, you can actually see this attitude above on full display. I’ve noticed one of her new buzzwords/catch phrases that she likes to use over and over again is “emotional intimacy”. The “good guys” are capable of “emotional intimacy”.… Read more »

swiftfoxmark2
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I think people are forgetting the volatility of a woman’s own desires. This guy did the Alpha thing (mostly) and flat out confronted her on her prudish behavior. However, desiring a woman to want to do those things should be of no consequence to him. I know it seems like he’d be using her and that she’d be doing it out of fear. But eventually that fear will subside and as long as she keeps on doing those things with him in the process, she will want to do it. Right now, this man is choking on the Red Pill… Read more »

Shaman
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Shaman
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@Deti… Yes, counterintuitive and 180 degrees different than everything I was told when being raised by a single mom (absent beta father) about being a “nice boy.” Intriguingly, I had my alpha and beta days growing up. Alpha always worked and got me laid, beta never worked and got me dumped or LJBF’d. You think I would have internalized the results and opted for alpha but the feminist imperative/feminist conditioning was THAT strong. @Redpillsetmefree “In terms of cuckold porn, that has to be filed under the heading of, ‘Good Fantasy, Bad Reality.’ It’s something that guys just think would be… Read more »

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