Saving the Best

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To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.

I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.

I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.

I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.

Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?

Her: Why are we talking about this?

Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?

Her: are you taking drugs?

Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.

She starts crying.

Me: Do you have anything to say?

She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.

Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.

She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut

Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.

She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.

She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.

Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.

She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.

Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.

She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you

Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.

Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.

I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.

I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.

As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.

I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.

Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”

I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.

I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.

Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.

There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.

As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.

There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.

Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.

The Best of Her

The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.

Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.

Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.

Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.

One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.

I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.

I Want You to Want Me

Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

[…] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change

What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.

He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

796 comments on “Saving the Best

  1. Living Tree:

    So as to preserve some semblance of credibility, please answer this question:

    Do you condemn and denounce this woman’s fundamental dishonesty and fraud as Jeremy outlined above? Do you denounce her intentional lying to her husband about her N and her intentional and deliberate withholding of sex from her husband? This guy just wanted his wife to suck his dick and she refuses him; while he then runs across a video which simultaneously proves beyond all doubt his wife is an unrepentant liar and an enthusiastic participant in all manner of sexual conduct – with men she deems attractive.

    Do you denounce this?

    1. Of course I denounce it Deti, its repulsive! She married this poor guy under false pretenses, so she could pretend to herself that she was something other than what she was.

      She feels ashamed by what she did in the past, so much so that it is stifling her ability to even admit that she wants to be sexual! What really angers me is that even now, 60 years after the supposed “sexual revolution”, so many women still feel deeply ashamed about having sexual needs, that they have to cover them up and lie about them.

      And her husband is entirely clueless about the importance of shame in female sexuality. He is taking it on as a personal matter, and it isn’t. If she were right in the head, she WOULD want him, or she never would have married him. He made the wrong choice to sacrifice his own needs, is suffering a lifetime of consequences now, and is blaming her.

      It is a complete failure of authenticity. This, to me, does not seem like progress, and this case is a perfect example of it.

  2. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus.
    Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.

    Best summation of what women are thinking. Still can’t understand why men get married at all.

  3. As an aside, I wonder what witness protection program she entered – to change her story that much to her husband. But, there were lots of things I didn’t know about my wife before we married. She only brought up the two kids she gave up for adoption because one of them had reached out to her – saying they wanted meet her and she was afraid they would show up at the door one day.

    Past lives are very interesting. Still no excuse for not coming clean and/or lying to begin with.

    1. I am going to stand on this platform and scream it until you listen.

      IF YOU WANT TO MARRY SOMEONE THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR PAST HIDDEN FROM, OR THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBJUGATE YOUR NEEDS TO BE WITH, YOU ARE MAKING THE WRONG CHOICE.

  4. Well for me marriage is the only legit place you can have sex…otherwise it is a sin. That would be my motivation along with having a family.

    But I’m the oddity now…when this used to be the norm. And even with my personal feelings on how I regard marriage…I wouldn’t advise it for any guy unless he knows full well what he is getting into.

    I’d rather do more productive things with my time on this planet and let the chips fall where they may.

  5. “Women just get terribly upset when I deconstruct the mechanics behind it so men are better prepared for it.”

    Ah the innate sexuality…otherwise known as the “feminine mystique”.

    Women never tell men this stuff and I wouldn’t expect them too. So they get mad when a guy talks about it and could care less about their feelings.

  6. @earl

    Well for me marriage is the only legit place you can have sex…otherwise it is a sin. That would be my motivation along with having a family.

    I think about this from time to time. Probably because I used to be religious, but not any more. Also because I still occasionally meet women who are honest-to-god virgins (or at least as close as anyone could possibly venture to verify without an exam using some nitrile).

    After going red-pill, the female virgin is actually a hot potato, an enigma that’s difficult to reconcile. I can’t find a solution, because I honestly can’t blame her for wanting to protect her virginity. Yet at the same time the world has changed so much with the advent of female birth control, how do I not demand she put some skin in the game? How does one verify she’s not just going to be holding out on you forever like the poor guy in this post by Rollo, without convincing her to notch an N for your sake?

  7. @LT…

    You’d be surprised at how accommodating Men can be with regard to a woman’s sexual past. In fact, we can (and do, as evidenced by this story, and probably countless others) turn a blind eye to it. I knew my wife was on the slutty side – hell our relationship started out as a ONS – and she was more than willing to throw me under the bus and start looking for my replacement (and I still wanted her to be my wife).

    Oh, Men may be rough and hard around the edges, but once committed to something, it is deep And I won’t be the one to say “woman don’t commit” because they do – but it’s not the same. And the attraction we feel for our wives may have nothing to do with what she looks like – or how much weight she gained. My (x)wife told me once that “You only wanted to have sex with her when I’m fat and ignore me when I’m skinny” — the funny thing was, I wanted to have sex with her all the time, it was her that didn’t feel the need to have sex with me (but she couldn’t admit that) when she was getting validation out in the world by being one of the pretty girls. When she was “fat” she came to me for validation.

    And guess what, even through all this shit – the fact that I have been replaced, that she walked out, that we are divorced – I still love her. So I understand what this Man is going through. Even though you KNOW and I mean KNOW — there is something still there that says….Just Maybe….

    My heart goes out to this guy, whoever he is. That kind of pain is unimaginable unless you’ve experienced it. Men are like the Vulcans – once the emotions do flood you, they can overwhelm you.

    1. Great post, Tin Man. I’ve long suspected as much. 🙂
      Men try to pretend their all simple and and unaffected and whatever, but I know the truth, they are really very emotionally complex. Probably much more so than women, if the truth were told.

      Women are not emotionally complex, they’re just messy, messy from the shit of the world. If there were less shit in the world, or if we could rise above it rather than be brought down so easily by it… well, lets just say this site would have no reason to exist.

  8. @Livingtree2013: Your argument, as I understand it, is follows:

    This woman’s anti-slut conditioning was too weak to keep her from gangbanging 5 guys on camera, but was too strong to overcome to give her husband a blowjob.

    Further, the husband is responsible for not getting what he wanted from her, but she was helpless in the face of her anti-slut conditioning.

    Is that a fair summary?

    By any chance, are you familiar with the terms “hyperagency” and “hypoagency”?

    1. No, Roe, you missed the point completely. Anti-slut conditioning isn’t really enough to make women not want to have crazy sex. It may actually make them want to have crazy sex even more, just to be deviant. They just feel shamed about it when they do, because of the anti-slut conditioning.

      Then, they choose to marry men who don’t want whores, because it can make them forget (temporarily) about the fact that they might actually be one.

      Isn’t that dreadfully obvious?? I thought so.

  9. @LT

    He was not defrauded though, I will not concede that point.

    If you won’t concede that, we’re at another philosophical impasse. The male in a relationship gets access to the woman’s, any blockage of that access is fraud. If you get access to the fruit of my labor, I get access to your body. That’s the deal. She’s a liar, she committed to the man without telling him her sexual past while telling him she would not do certain things. She let him believe she wouldn’t do them because of any other reason then the truth. She committed marital fraud by not telling him the truth.

    The rest of your typing time might best be spent re-reading what Rollo wrote from another perspective.

    1. I think this is just a technical sticking point, not a philosophical impasse. We can get through this one Jeremy, don’t give up yet!

      lol…

      Is that the deal Jeremy? Did they make that deal when they married? I bet no-one ever has that type of understanding when they marry, they just make assumptions. Oh, the list of doomed couples I could list here…

      Plus, going back to our last argument, this is exactly why women wanted that dastardly “independence”, so they wouldn’t be bound by the confines of the trade, the trade in which they only had one thing of value to offer the world – sex. Don’t you get how demeaning it is to be reduced to nothing more than your sex organs? Its pathetic. At least if we work, we are bringing something else to the table, which (in theory) should mean that we don’t have to be our husband’s personal whore.

      Anyway, about the fraud thing. All I mean here is that there was no intention on her part to make him think he was getting a woman who would be sexually liberated. If he thought that would change after they got married, he was fooling himself into believing in fairy tales. He pretended that was what he wanted. She gave him exactly what she presented herself as before they married, she followed through, believing that was what he wanted her to be, but he wasn’t happy, he was faking it the whole time.

      For all she knew, if she had told him about her past, he would up and leave her. And what reason would she have to think any differently? Up to then he had falsely represented himself as being happy with her being prudish.

      So in fact, yes I guess she was committing fraud, but so was he. Again, a total failure of authenticity.

      1. LT,

        For all she knew, if she had told him about her past, he would up and leave her.

        It would have happened for sure before marriage.

        Please reverse the genders in your mind and re apply. Feminism is getting the best of your reasoning.

        1. Yohami, I’m not sure I get your point. Reverse that how?

          Like as in to say, if a man told his future wife about his sexual escapades prior to their marriage, would she leave him? That can’t possibly be a serious question.

          Women expect men will have whored around prior to marriage. Even my extremely religious grandmother knew about my granddad before they married that he was a drunken brawler and a scamp. After marriage, completely different story of course, he was as upright as anyone I’ve ever met.

          Point being, women don’t even bat an eyelash when men whore around prior to marriage, which I think is to their detriment. Unfortunately, as a consequence, it seems that men who DON’T whore around are the anomaly these days. And tragically, those are the guys that feel bad because they aren’t getting it as much as the “alpha’s”. I just don’t get it.

          You want to stand out, you should be setting the example instead of becoming just like everyone else.

  10. @livingtree2013

    She feels ashamed by what she did in the past, so much so that it is stifling her ability to even admit that she wants to be sexual! What really angers me is that even now, 60 years after the supposed “sexual revolution”, so many women still feel deeply ashamed about having sexual needs, that they have to cover them up and lie about them.

    That’s pure conflation.

    You’re conflating being ashamed of having sexual needs, with being ashamed of sexual deeds. They are night-and-day different things. Shame over choices you made is appropriate and without such shame we would never learn some hard lessons. Shame over what your body tells you that you need is something entirely different and is usually the mark of child abuse. Again, you’re conflating two dissimilar things because you want to excuse slutty behavior by equating the desire to be slutty with the choice to be a slut with anyone.

    1. Sure, OK you make an interesting point there Jeremy, but I think that more likely than not, the “deed” was committed out of a pre-existing sense of shame, it is exactly what motivated her behavior. Why would she say “I’m a dirty whore” in the video if it wasn’t about shaming?

      I wouldn’t be even the tiniest bit surprised if before the video was made, she’d already been date-raped, and taken the blame for it, so the experience made her have some deeply suppressed feelings of unworthiness.

      This chick is messed UP, I’m telling you.

      What he should do, this dude here, is leave, and tell his wife she needs to get some really good therapy, and then maybe they might have a chance, but only if they both can learn to be honest with each other.

  11. Good Lord in Heaven

    What a nightmare.

    This man chose poorly, overlooked the obvious danger signs and is now suffering the consequences.

    Paternity test, divorce, learn and move on. This marriage can never recover

  12. @livingtree2013

    I am going to stand on this platform and scream it until you listen.

    IF YOU WANT TO MARRY SOMEONE THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR PAST HIDDEN FROM, OR THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBJUGATE YOUR NEEDS TO BE WITH, YOU ARE MAKING THE WRONG CHOICE.

    What is this, are we back to AOL days when caps lock somehow made a point more worthy of listening to?

    The man was defrauded. The marital commitment is one of committing a lifetime of work, provisioning and protection (for the man) in exchange for reproduction services, sexual services, and feminine support that only women can provide (for the women). He married someone who led him to believe she was attracted to him, even when he was walking out she was outright telling him she was attracted to him. Her actions demonstrate exactly the opposite. Her actions scream loudly that she was never attracted to him enough to give him the same sexual access that she would give total strangers.

    How is this not fraud?

  13. This post is so raw, touches the bones of my spirit, and justifies every action I have been taking the last 8 years.

    Thank you

    1. The anti slut defense is needed, even without a moral or religious reason. A slut is more likely to cheat and trade up or look up for strange, and is more likely to be an immature emotional reck.

      For the same reason girls have the anti-player defense when it comes down to relationships.

      The difference is that players are usually alphas, thus attractive. While sluts come in any variety.

  14. @livingtree2013

    Great post, Tin Man. I’ve long suspected as much. 🙂
    Men try to pretend their all simple and and unaffected and whatever, but I know the truth, they are really very emotionally complex. Probably much more so than women, if the truth were told.

    You got that men are emotionally complicated creatures from what Tin Man said? Do you only come here to read what you want to think into what other people write?

    Anti-slut conditioning isn’t really enough to make women not want to have crazy sex. It may actually make them want to have crazy sex even more, just to be deviant. They just feel shamed about it when they do, because of the anti-slut conditioning.

    No, women feel ashamed of deviant sex with strangers because they’ve stupidly offered up their most prized marital asset to someone they have no commitment to, full stop. It is no different than if I went and stupidly gambled away my life savings, just for the thrill of gambling; or drank away my health, just for the thrill of binge drinking. I’ve gone and destroyed my primary marital assets to a woman, all for a cheap thrill.

    And no, you’re not getting rid of me LT. I call out BS when I see it, either start thinking about what you write before you write it, or deal with my responses by actually reading them.

    1. Jeremy if you’re just going to get irate about every controversial comment I make, then we might as well stop talking because you may have already noticed, I am controversial almost all the time, just for the sake of opening up the discussion. I read what you said, I read what everyone here said, I just (like usual) think that we are limiting ourselves to a superficial reading of the situation.

      People are intricately complex, and that complexity provides endless sources for analysis, if only we are willing to go to that depth. If you don’t want to go there, I can certainly pander to you if you’d prefer. I would like to think that we’d all like to become better at this “life” thing. Am I wrong?

      I’m not in any way trying to excuse this woman’s behavior, or any woman who is faking being a “nice girl” to get a husband. I think its an atrocity. Nor am I trying to make him out to be the bad guy here. But the marriage was a sham, and while you want to blame her, I think that both of them are at fault, although for considerably different reasons, both of which are interesting and worthy of discussing.

      Are her reasons worse than his? YES, definitely. Does that make us any better off to blame her? No.

      Anyway, interesting the line you used:, they’ve “offered up their most prized marital asset to someone they have no commitment to”.

      Correct. But I think the bottom line is that women don’t actually place anywhere near as much value on this asset as men do. I especially don’t think that young women today have even a rudimentary understanding of the asset they possess, because they have never been taught that it’s valuable. They’ve been taught that its dirty and shameful on one hand, and a magical tool of manipulation on the other. There is nothing healthy about our culture’s representation of female sexuality.

      Sex is a very conflicted issue for women. Maybe for men too, but here’s the conundrum: A man can quit drinking, quit gambling, quit being a whore, whatever. He can always reclaim his honor by good behavior.

      But a girl can never, ever get her honor back, because her honor is based on a single, unfortunate decision to have sex before really understanding it.

      A woman’s chastity is an asset she can NEVER ever get back, and the wrong decision can ruin her life forever. Unfortunately, by the time they figure out the truth, usually the hard way, usually by some teenage prick, eager to get his count up, foisting himself upon her using some form of deceit, its too late, its gone forever.

      Forever. Game over. You’re a slut, before you even knew what happened.

  15. @LivingTree2013 – Thanks for taking the time to engage (multiple assailants at once, no less!)

    Frankly, no, it’s not obvious to me at all. Debating gender often falls to these misunderstandings, because men & women have such vastly different experiences of these things. The idea that a woman would act in a completely unrestrained manner with men who don’t care much about her, and deny that to the man who displayed love and sacrifice to her is *completely counter-intuitive* to me. And to be blunt I feel *really bad* for the man in this situation, and a little resentment towards the woman – which is part of the problem.

    So…. logical consistency then.

    If you’re going to, in any sense, exonerate the woman (whatever the mechanism) from responsibility by virtue of cultural forces you’ve got to extend that man the same curtesy. Nice Guys who don’t draw personal boundaries and push for what they want are as much of a product of cultural forces as women ashamed of their past sexual behaviour.

    Plus, she lied, he did not. That’s a *really* fundamental ethical distinction.

    1. Good morning Roe, I did respond to your last night’s post before I left my desk, but my computer had a meltdown in the process of uploading it. Too bad, it was good (I thought so anyway)…

      Anyway, the gist of it was, yes, it is completely counter-intuitive, you’re absolutely right. There’s nothing intuitive about that response at all, but there is nothing rational really, at all, about the operation of the human psyche under duress. But that’s my point exactly. I’m adamant that most women/girls really need a large amount of psychiatric assistance, because they really don’t know how to appropriately handle the massive number of conflicting inputs.

      But a lifetime of therapy wont do any good until a woman’s virginity is not considered to be a man’s property right, which, if this forum is any indication, does not appear to be on the horizon. Shame, that, because virtually every problem in the modern world stems from that belief (the subject of yet another article of mine…)

      And please, I hope that you don’t think that I meant to exonerate this woman from her fault. That was never my intention. The lie was unfair, and I would never back up a woman who did that. I just always make a point to think about the possible reasons for people’s behavior, it allows for me to have both empathy and objectivity, not to justify it, but to understand it and learn from it.
      (I can hear the scoffing and eye rolling from here).

      And you’re absolutely right on your second point too, there is definitely cultural pressure that likely caused him to think he should subvert his own needs to please her. I do understand that passivity is a trait that we cultivate far too much. The guy in this tale is definitely a “victim” of it. I’m not a fan of passivity, for anyone, in any instance. I just don’t happen to agree that the only alternative to passivity is dominance.

      But I still don’t think that the “victims” don’t have at least some responsibility for their actions. (and yes, I also think the same about date-rape victims).

  16. He reposted his thread in reddit, and also mentioned he filed for divorce. There was a post on roosh forum about it a week ago. About 60% of the people on reddit thought they were getting trolled with the story, and were angry with him. There was a guy who posted a thread a year ago in a city search forum about how he married a woman and found out she did blowjob trains in college, and how he couldn’t go on. Most of the comments there were angry with him as well, telling him he didn’t deserve her. It’s sad that people think they aren’t getting damaged goods, what can you do.

  17. *sigh*
    Marriage is a contract, a license must be signed, registered with the state, and there are a myriad number of laws constructed around dissolving it if one or both parties wants out..

    Besides a record label contract as a new recording artist, marriage is probably the number one contract that is consistently entered into in bad faith. Yet, somehow, the woman is protected from any and all consequences. She is also not required to have performed her wedding vows at any time during the marriage. Cash and prizes will be awarded regardless of contract fulfillment.

    This is nothing but fraud.

    A wife that has received every benefit from having a husband and refused to give him the benefits of having a wife, while having visual evidence that she had no problem giving it away for free to non-contractual men.

    Any argument to the contrary is just more hamsterized obfuscation.
    The end.

  18. LT,

    For all she knew, if she had told him about her past, he would up and leave her.

    It would have happened for sure before marriage.
    Please reverse the genders in your mind and re apply. Feminism is getting the best of your reasoning.

  19. This poor man never had a marriage. He doesn’t have one now and never will have one with this woman. This woman pulled the ultimate cuntery-of-a-scam on this poor fellow. She willfully used him as a financial-slush-fund to lock in a lifestyle she knows she damn well does not deserve. The baby, if it’s even his, is nothing more than a grappling-hook that she used to secure said funds for squanderous use in a planned future lifestyle (Away from Hubby, back to the boys-in-the-band). It’s all part of her diabolical plan. Don’t be fooled. No woman on earth would keep a gang-bang-napshot, let alone, a GOD-DAMN-VIDEO!!! of such a depraved event if she didn’t wantonly crave such depravity. This women has no moral scruples. I don’t have a problem with who she truly is (a depraved slut). I have problem with her filthy-rotten-lies, her calculated sexual starvation of the supposed man she loves and putting on the chaste-wife routine for financial gain. What a load of crap she is. This man deserves the truth. Not lies. If he disapproves of her scandalous past then, she should have sent on his merry-way, not locked him in loveless-sexless-packmule-lifestyle-of-a-marriage. This is the time for Maning-Up and kicking that bitch out.

  20. @livingtree2013

    Is that the deal Jeremy? Did they make that deal when they married? I bet no-one ever has that type of understanding when they marry, they just make assumptions. Oh, the list of doomed couples I could list here…

    That absolutely is the deal. Would you ever stick with a man who would not provide for you even after you shared your bed with him regularly? Of course you wouldn’t. Neither should a man stick with a woman after discovering she was holding out on him.

    Plus, going back to our last argument, this is exactly why women wanted that dastardly “independence”, so they wouldn’t be bound by the confines of the trade, the trade in which they only had one thing of value to offer the world – sex. Don’t you get how demeaning it is to be reduced to nothing more than your sex organs? Its pathetic. At least if we work, we are bringing something else to the table, which (in theory) should mean that we don’t have to be our husband’s personal whore.

    You are deceived into thinking you have to measure up to a man in a mans world to have any value to society. That is a false belief if there ever was one. In fact it speaks poorly of female intelligence that you believe that there’s only one yardstick by which your life should be judged. You perversely believe that it is demeaning to offer your body to a man as part of a marriage contract. It’s not, it’s the greatest gift you can give a man and until you’ve actually offered it you have no idea what you’re giving up. You also create a false dichotomy that implies that because women are valued for sex, that they cannot contribute to standard economic industry, this is absurd. This paragraph of yours is filled with logical fallacies and assumptions without evidence.

    Anyway, about the fraud thing. All I mean here is that there was no intention on her part to make him think he was getting a woman who would be sexually liberated.

    This paragraph makes me seriously question whether or not you actually read Rollo’s post. There was absolutely no hint of such a thing in the story, you’re creating another logical fallacy here known as a straw man. What actually occurred is the woman let her husband believe she was attracted to him. When he discovered all that she was willing to do sexually with other men, it became quite clear that she was never attracted to him, because she was willing to offer herself to all these other men without offering herself to him.

    For all she knew, if she had told him about her past, he would up and leave her. And what reason would she have to think any differently? Up to then he had falsely represented himself as being happy with her being prudish.

    So lying about your past is preferable to being left? You are justifying being a liar here.

    Here’s hoping you actually read what I write, it’s clear you don’t read what Rollo writes.

    1. Arggh, Jeremy I can’t reply to this tonight, I’m going to have to think on this, more than I can offer you tonight. Its late, I’m tired, I’ve barely eaten, I’m frustrated, and there’s a blizzard going on outside. I have to get on the road.
      Talk more tomorrow.

    2. Jeremy. I thought long and hard about your statement last night, and after much deliberation I think this IS where we come to the philosophical impasse.

      “Would you ever stick with a man who would not provide for you even after you shared your bed with him regularly? Of course you wouldn’t.” A statement founded in several incorrect assumptions.

      Yes actually. I would. Because in the modern world, I am not trading sex for food. We both get sex, we both get food, and we both get a whole lot more too, and with neither of us laboring under the burden of being indebted, we both are free.

      “Food for sex” may be the marriage trade for you, and maybe for the very conservative and fundamentalist folks among you, but this is exactly where we diverge. I just would never think of myself, the product of my uterus, or my husband, or his resources, as a trade-able commodity. That’s just how I roll.

      Its no coincidence that the majority of those opposed to women’s reproductive freedom are conservative, christian, anti-marxist, and the most ardent opponents of any sort of communal responsibility. These beliefs are all directly tied together, around the construct of property rights, and all of them stem from the right of paternity and patrilineage.

      A woman’s prized virginity is really about men’s need for paternity, and paternity is a property right. As you said yourself, it is the “greatest gift you can give a man,” which is a male-established, moral assumption, founded not in natural law but in the need to have the right of parent-ownership. Paternity (and maternity too, if you really want to know what I think) is a purely artificial construct created for the legal purpose of property transfer.

      It really saddens me that there are still so many people who see themselves, and their prospective spouses and children, as possessions that you have rights of entitlement over.

      We discussed this in our last talk, unsuccessfully, because you cast many unfounded assumptions upon me about what you think I believe. So defending the rest of this is pointless effort wasted, unless we reconcile this one point.

      I’m not even going to counter the points you made about lying, or about fraud, because I’ve already answered them MULTIPLE times here. If you need to read something into them that I didn’t say, that is your choice to make.

  21. LT,

    Shame is at the core of it, I concede you that.

    I wouldn’t be even the tiniest bit surprised if before the video was made, she’d already been date-raped

    Like everything in feminism, rape explains it all. Do you get a high thinking about it?

  22. @ livingtree2013

    Sure, OK you make an interesting point there Jeremy, but I think that more likely than not, the “deed” was committed out of a pre-existing sense of shame, it is exactly what motivated her behavior. Why would she say “I’m a dirty whore” in the video if it wasn’t about shaming?…

    This chick is messed UP, I’m telling you.

    You’re creating a distraction again. You’re shifting focus to the woman being messed up and some kind of “victim”. That the woman has issues is not in question, her behavior within a marriage contract is the issue. She lied. She convinced a man she was attracted to him when she was clearly not even honest with herself about who she was attracted to. She committed fraud.

  23. This situation is Game Over. Again, it is a contract that was entered into in bad faith, and there are only enforceable benefits for one side.
    The emotional contract between spouses….yet again an area where people are lying through their teeth from day one. And again, in this situation, only one spouse can have her desire fulfilled, Beta bucks….the husband can never have his true desire. Ever.

    There is no salvaging this marriage, because there has been a Point of No Return discovery.

  24. Another tragic case of a ‘nice guy’ learning the hard way. If he wasn’t getting what he needed from the start, why the hell did he marry her?

    The sexual history isn’t the primary issue. It’s the lies. She lied about her past. Accused him of being on drugs when he confronted her. What else is she lying about or hasn’t been discovered yet? He needs to get a paternity test immediately.

    If he didn’t have a kid, I would suggest immediate divorce. No counseling, no trial anything. However, he does, so he has a decision to make. The relationship will never be the same, but it sounds like it wasn’t that great to begin with. The only chance they have is for her to come completely clean with her past. Problem is, she is a practiced liar. Once trust is gone, it’s pretty much over.

    I don’t think the resentment will ever go away and will likely fester over time. Even if he agrees to reconcile, I would guess he is only signing up for a 2-4 year extension. She will divorce him eventually.

  25. *If* this is real… then the dude handled it badly by blowing up so quickly.

    YaReally got it. The right attitude would be nonjudgmental about it at first, hard as it may be. As in: “We should do that, you and me” and see where it goes. Does she change of her own accord, which would validate her story, or does it stay the same?

    There is a slight chance that she isn’t just lying or not attracted, but honestly felt what made her “slutty” wasn’t the gangbang, but the blowjob and enthusiasm itself, even for one person. So, to turn over a new leaf, she dials back, wildly overcompensates, and becomes a prude.

    That established, it’s a separate question whether you want to remain married to someone who would do this. And I’ve done some crazy things, but this is bad…

  26. I’m guessing that the wife in question was hot and out of the husband’s league. That’s why he’s been afraid to demand better sex all along. If he would have married someone of lower SMV he never would have tolerated the substandard sex. He would have told her gag on his dick or he would leave her.

    Don’t confuse my theory with the idea that the wife is anything but a horrible woman. Clearly this woman has the moral compass of Satan.

    All I’m saying is that married men have got to stop treating the women like delicate little flowers. JUst flat out tell the wife that that you will be getting sex. And it will be good sex. It can be from her or some other woman. But you will be having sex. It is up to the wife as to whether it is with her or some other woman. The choice is hers. This guy didn’t/couldn’t take what was his all along. What a terrible situation.

  27. I think that more likely than not, the “deed” was committed out of a pre-existing sense of shame, it is exactly what motivated her behavior. Why would she say “I’m a dirty whore” in the video if it wasn’t about shaming?…

    Mmmm, yeah, so much shame she held onto the video for 7 years. Why do you suppose that was? One would think that she would never want to be reminded of all that shame and it would’ve prompted her to destroy it a long time ago, but no. Wouldn’t it follow that the last thing any girl concerned with her husband thinking she was a slut would want to do would be hold onto graphic evidence of her enthusiastic sexual past for him to discover 7 years and one daughter later?

    So in light of what these facts imply, was it really shame of her sexuality that motivated her to her shooting a gang sex video she held onto for so long, knowing the risk to her marriage and family life it posed by keeping it for so long? Do you think maybe she got off on watching it a few times during those 7 years?

    Do you think maybe she wanted him to find it eventually?

    Anti-slut conditioning isn’t really enough to make women not want to have crazy sex

    That’s because ASD is a social convention, a tool for the feminine imperative.
    http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/09/the-tool-of-asd/

    The ASD Tool

    With ASD as a tool, a woman can operate unhindered in her sexual selection. As much as people want to take issue with me about Plate Theory, women have been employing it for centuries and the tool that is ASD has only made them better at it. In today’s western culture (and a lot of others as well) she’s got the best of the new rules and the old. A woman can be as flirtatious as she wants, be as arousing and flighty as she pleases and still enjoys the female prerogative to “change her mind”, to be concerned with her virtue. And we, as properly conditioned chumps, nod our heads in agreement with the girl who just won the wet t-shirt contest when she says she wont sleep with us because she’s “not THAT kind of girl.”

    1. Hey Rollo, that article you wrote about ASD – totally spot on. I was expecting it to be full of typical feminist-blaming bullshit, but I think you at the very least delved into how messy the sexual landscape is for many women, and how not worth it it is for men to get into that sort of mess. I’d almost say that by posting this link as your response, you actually are, perhaps without realizing it, agreeing with the points I made earlier! I’m sure you’ll deny that though, and that’s OK. I get it.

      Look, just because I don’t play the “aww, poor thing” sympathy routine that you guys seem to want, doesn’t mean I don’t feel some sympathy for you having to maneuver the feminine landscape.

      THAT is what makes it harder for us than men – men don’t carry that baggage, (even though they created most of it). Women, for some reason, feel like they have to pick it up and carry it around with them everywhere they go, instead of leaving it at the curb where it belongs.

  28. @livingtree2013 I don’t know what kind of world you live in, but here in the real world, it is male sexuality that is demonized and female sexuality is seen as empowerment since at least 1960 to present.

    Though I agree with the first half of your response. His needs were clearly not being met, and yet he wrongly decided against his own best interest to stay with her for 7 years too long.

  29. @livingtree2013

    Jeremy if you’re just going to get irate about every controversial comment I make, then we might as well stop talking because you may have already noticed, I am controversial almost all the time, just for the sake of opening up the discussion.

    I would go with illogical.

    People are intricately complex, and that complexity provides endless sources for analysis, if only we are willing to go to that depth. If you don’t want to go there, I can certainly pander to you if you’d prefer. I would like to think that we’d all like to become better at this “life” thing. Am I wrong?

    And here we start with a new discussion… No concession to your logical fallacies that you offered in your last reply. No restatement of my points to make it clear you understand what I meant. No alternate perspective offered. All you’re saying is, “wow, I’ve run out of talking points and I still disagree with you, ok, here’s a plate full of new topics and obfuscation.”

    I’m not in any way trying to excuse this woman’s behavior, or any woman who is faking being a “nice girl” to get a husband. I think its an atrocity. Nor am I trying to make him out to be the bad guy here. But the marriage was a sham, and while you want to blame her, I think that both of them are at fault, although for considerably different reasons, both of which are interesting and worthy of discussing.

    Then you concede she committed fraud, she is a liar, and she deceived the man into believing she liked him more than she actually did. So really your entire reply previously could read, “Yes, Jeremy, I agree.”

    …Correct. But I think the bottom line is that women don’t actually place anywhere near as much value on this asset as men do. I especially don’t think that young women today have even a rudimentary understanding of the asset they possess, because they have never been taught that it’s valuable. They’ve been taught that its dirty and shameful on one hand, and a magical tool of manipulation on the other. There is nothing healthy about our culture’s representation of female sexuality.

    For once it seems like you’ve read something of the manosphere. But again you’re missing the forest for the talking points posted on the perimeter trees. Women instinctively know their sexuality is valuable to men. They know this instinctively because they notice from young ages that they’re able to hold a mans visual attention longer than other people. Instead of being taught how to protect this asset while dealing with suitors appropriately, most modern women have been taught to ignore it’s value to men. Modern women are in fact taught to ignore men in general until they’re past 25, and to trash that asset however they see fit in what can somewhat aptly be metaphorically called… “spring break”. I’m sure those ladies on the cock carousel have great fun, but it’s can be a half-life of hangover after the ride.

    He can always reclaim his honor by good behavior.

    Really? Have you seen what a jail record does to a man’s honor and lifelong reputation? You realize that excessive drinking lands you in jail, gambling away yourself into debt can land you in jail, etc..etc.. You do realize that statistics bear out the fact that men make up about 90% of the prison population, and that men are about twice as likely to be jailed as women for the same crime. I think calling your statement disingenuous is only the beginning. You again are seeing the world only through the eyes of a “victimized female”, ignoring all the truly bad things that happen to men regularly. But of course, we’re far off topic now, so you’ve likely gotten too comfortable with not addressing my calling out of your logical fallacies in your last reply.

    Oh no, I haven’t forgotten LT. Yes, I’m keeping track of every point I make that you fail to acknowledge.

  30. @Jeremy, while I understand your point regarding women’s N count, I really think that the root of that discontent for men is wanting to get the best a woman has to offer sexually.

    Rollo,

    I think you’ve nailed it here. Taking it one step further, I think it is connected to the idea of a “fair trade” taking place. In a sense there is no higher compliment or greater gift a man (especially a higher SMV man with options) can give a woman than to make her his wife essentially making the proclamation I choose you over all others and give up the possibility of experiencing sexually any other woman. The “fair trade” to that is knowing the woman is giving her husband the best she has to offer sexually. If he is getting a vastly “inferior product” compared to other men in exchange for him offering the “best product” (lifetime monogamous committment) then essentially he is being taken for chump.

    Women being mostly solipsistic and tending to project I think vastly overvalue the commitment/choosing part because that is what they value and underestimate the “sexual performance” part.

  31. LT,

    May I suggest rereading and editing your comments prior to posting them. I honestly cannot follow some of your comments because they are basically a stream of consciousness of non-sequiturs.

  32. @Rollo
    “I realize how twisted this is going to sound, but I can’t help but wonder if the commonness of situations like this aren’t somehow influencing the increased popularity of internet cuckold porn.”

    I can tell you from first hand experience that this is EXACTLY what’s increasing the popularity of cuckold porn. I’m ashamed as hell to even admit it, but prior to swallowing the red pill, cuckold porn sucked me in. Shitty sex life with the wife, no physical affection at all, her flirting with my friends, me beta as shit, and before you know it I’m having these twisted ass cuckold fantasies and watching cuckold porn. Scared the living shit out of me.

    Long story short, I took the red pill by accident. Just stumbled across it actually. Off porn altogether and now disgusted by the fact that it even had any appeal. Like seriously revolted and absolutely ashamed of myself for sinking so low.

    Long, long way to go and who knows if the marriage will ultimately succeed or not, but the truth is I simply no longer care. I now speak my mind, hold nothing back, piss her off on a daily basis and care less and less whether she gives a shit. I do what I want now and spend more and more time doing things I really enjoy doing… and without her.

    And I also started fucking the living shit out of her in the past couple of months — still not as frequently as I want but a hell of a lot more frequently than in the past. Pull her hair, spank her ass, demand that she tell me her pussy is mine when I’m fucking her doggy. I’ve never been more turned on sexually in my life because now, finally I’m fucking her like my DNA programmed me to fuck her. I care less and less about her pleasure and more about my own.

    And frankly, I couldn’t give a shit whether she’s faking it or not. The way I look at it, she either enjoys it, will learn to enjoy it, or I’ll fuck her right out of the marriage — that is, if it’s revolting to her, at some point she won’t be able to tolerate it any longer.

    This has been a huge and royally fucked up awakening. It’s destroyed my faith in love and whether love is even possible, but paradoxically, I’m feeling more emotionally and mentally healthy than I have in years because my value is no longer dependent on phony externalities (the approval of females) which I am absolutely certain caused me to take a pretty nasty downward spiral into some seriously fucked up and unhealthy fantasies.

    It’s pretty late in the game for me, but these are lessons I will very soon begin teaching my son.

    [Thanks for your honesty, that took courage to type]

  33. Rollo, one of your best. Now I see why you were not so intrigued by my ideas for a new post. Anything that gets a debate going with Deti and YaReally is first rate.

  34. People are intricately complex, and that complexity provides endless sources for analysis, if only we are willing to go to that depth.

    Meh, not so much,…
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/11/06/people-are-people/

    An integral part of our feminized, equalist conditioning teaches us to reject propositions of ‘human nature’ – really even venturing to guess about it – in favor of a blank slate philosophy. Equalism, the religion of feminism, cannot exist in a world predicated upon even a margin of common influence determined by our biology’s, our evolved psychology, or even evidence of the mechanics which account for that collective influence on human beings.

    It’s not that most people subscribing to this wont admit to extrinsic influences on the individual when pressed, it’s just that they believe that freewill, conscious effort and determined conviction will lift the individual above their biological limitations and therefore the greater collective. And, in focussed concentration, on a by-person basis they’d probably be right. What they don’t account for is acknowledging the subconscious influence of extrinsic and intrinsic prompts that motivate human beings to hold those convictions in the first place. The evolutionary, innately biological limitations they wish to rise above aren’t “bugs” they’re “features”

    LT will never appreciate the red pill perspective because her life’s conditioning has been one of denying the evolved psychology, biological predispositions and hardwired neurological vestiges that influences human behavior today.

  35. I think that both of them are at fault, although for considerably different reasons, both of which are interesting and worthy of discussing.

    Why? Because he naively bought the bullshit he was fed for probably decades. Let me tell you something. Most men grow up and most confrontation is physical and direct. Not a lot of men get practice in their teens like women at deception, and playing games, etc. So when a guy hits his 20s he is ill-equipped to either recognize or deal with the sort of Machiavellian fraud many women are capable of with a straight face. You want to blame this guy because he believed? Fuck that.

    What gets me is many women, such as yourself or someone like Aunt Giggles (see Deti’s comment) want to blame the guy when he selects a woman of “bad character” yet at the same time demonize Rollo and what he is trying to do here in shining a spotlight on all the various things women are capable of. Many women want to simultaneously keep men in the dark about various aspects of female nature and psychology, yet also hold him partially responsible in situations like this when he didn’t know any better.

    One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process.

    This is gospel truth. Many aspects of female strategy regarding mating are essentially dependent on having a large population of basically ignorant men who happily go along with the program. Educating and more importantly changing male behavior threatens optimizing hypergamy. It’s why someone like Giggles spends numerous posts laying out complete bullshit on female SMV because the ultimate end from the female strategy is to convince both men and women to go along with “age-appropriate” dating.

    1. Morpheus,

      Many women want to simultaneously keep men in the dark about various aspects of female nature and psychology, yet also hold him partially responsible in situations like this when he didn’t know any better.

      Depending to what’s convenient each time.

      LT even tried to make this woman look like the victim – she might have been date raped! so blaming her would be victim blaming.

      Even though I know this is how it works it still fries my brain.

    2. Morpheus, how exactly do you see that I am “demonizing” anything said here by Rollo? Where? When? What I have REPEATEDLY SAID here is that I agree with most of what is being discussed here. I’m not quite prepared yet to accept the belief that women could eliminate all their own problems if they would just stop sucking, but it certainly wouldn’t be a bad place to start. Hey, why not give it a try? I advocate for it daily in my own life, just so you know.

      I know you guys don’t like to hear a woman make excuses for women’s bad behavior while blaming men, and though you do like to accuse me of it a lot, I don’t think that is, anywhere, at any time here, something I’ve done. I’m pretty sure if you read my comments objectively, you will see a general commonality, and that is that both men and women have lost their way in this world.

      The reasons for that will forever be debatable, but the end result is the same: the majority of us are not happy with our sexual relationships. SO, exactly why are we not working on fixing it instead of blaming each other?

  36. @LT

    “Women are not emotionally complex, they’re just messy, messy from the shit of the world. If there were less shit in the world, or if we could rise above it rather than be brought down so easily by it… well, lets just say this site would have no reason to exist.”

    There is a subtle different here – and a point that Rollo made in the post, and has made several times, that until I started reading (Manosphere blogs) and learning (about red pill) – I really had not clue – and it why, there are many, many Men that push back to hard…

    I (we) grew up being taught that “it just wasn’t fair” for woman out in the world. It wasn’t fair that they could take advantage of the same opportunities as Men. It wasn’t fair that they were excluded from (fill in the blank). It wasn’t fair that Men go to do (whatever) and they couldn’t, or if they did, they’d be called names (or shamed). Oh, and btw, there is never a reason to hit a woman. Never intimidate them by using your “strength” (or whatever the word would be in that instance).

    i (we) was taught this almost from the time we could understand. Also, such axioms as “Be Yourself” “don’t be jerk, girls won’t like you” “Buy flowers or gifts or dinners – woman like that” — and a hundred other little things.

    I (we) was taught that marriage is a partnership. And that it’s for life. That whatever troubles you have, you can work them out.

    Then once married, when we thought we could relax, the shit really hit the fan. Forget this poor soul that “discovered” a truth about his wife, or that his wife may or may not have lied to him – from day one of his life, he was sold a bill of good and then on some random Tuesday morning, when all he’s doing is trying to find a file on the damned computer, it all comes crashing down on him. That almost everything he “believed”, everything he held dear in his life, all the good and bad in his life, everything that made him who is was – is absolutely destroyed. Obliterated.

    And the one person that can make it right, the one person that you thought was your partner, this one person that have built a life with, and a family with – doesn’t own up to her actions, tries to make it right in all the wrong ways.

    Until you have gone that path, calling him stupid, calling him an idiot, telling him it’s his fault that all this happened – well, that’s unjustified. I agree buyer beware and sometimes you get what you get. But there was no way for him to be an informed buyer. He’s not a victim, he just a Man that grew up in a fucked up time.

  37. @livingtree2013
    Great post, Tin Man. I’ve long suspected as much. 🙂
    Men try to pretend their all simple and and unaffected and whatever, but I know the truth, they are really very emotionally complex. Probably much more so than women, if the truth were told.

    @Jeremy
    You got that men are emotionally complicated creatures from what Tin Man said? Do you only come here to read what you want to think into what other people write?

    I don’t know if that’s what I said or not…but I guess that’s how was interrupted. And to tell you the truth, I’m not trying to engage you LT in these comments. Rollo believes in an open forum – and so do I – but there are times when it would be nice to retire to the billiard’s room and enjoy a cigar and brandy by the Boys.

  38. @livingtree2013 As long as women always see men as a walking wallet/ATM machine to exploit and dispose, and feminism remains a force of influence over modern social laws and mores, red pill men will always see women as the said disposable commodity you speak of until some sort of social collapse happens and then the real fun begins.

  39. But I do have to say…

    Ole LT has gotten the Boys all riled up!! She showed up Rollo’s comments have blown up. And the stars have come out to play!!

  40. @Shaman
    I find it fascinating that your porn interests warped over time to essentially reflect what your brain perceives as “this is the limit to what I can expect from my sex life” in your reality. I wonder if single guys watch freakier and a wider variety of porn with a wider variety of girls in them than incel marriage guys…and if “reality porn” with average/plain girls tends to be viewed more by guys without game who’s brains tell them that an average looking semi-chubby normal chick is the limit of what they can expect from their sex life. Thanks for sharing.

    Also ideally this guy follows your lead. You’re essentially executing MMSL. Unfortunately I think this guy got rocked so hard with such a brutal 7-year betrayal (it had to be a huge “dirty little whore” gang-bang and not even just a BJ video with one guy or something) that I don’t know if he’d be able to execute shit as solid as you have since in the back of his head he’s still pining for “how I wish it was, I’m a victim” VS accepting “this is how it is, now let’s fix it”.

    @Tin Man
    “Then once married, when we thought we could relax, the shit really hit the fan.”

    This is one of the hardest things to swallow about the red pill. I don’t remember which article, but I remember Rollo talking about how men just want somewhere they can relax…but then it turns out that we were fed the lie that once we have a girl who loves us, we can relax with her, and it’s encouraged that we do…except no one told us the truth: that she’ll lose attraction for us.

    The Game doesn’t end. That’s why it’s all the more important for guys to learn and internalize this shit when they’re young, so by the time they settle down they do most of it on instinct.

  41. This is one of the hardest things to swallow about the red pill. I don’t remember which article, but I remember Rollo talking about how men just want somewhere they can relax…but then it turns out that we were fed the lie that once we have a girl who loves us, we can relax with her, and it’s encouraged that we do…except no one told us the truth: that she’ll lose attraction for us.
    The Game doesn’t end. That’s why it’s all the more important for guys to learn and internalize this shit when they’re young, so by the time they settle down they do most of it on instinct.

    One theme Dalrock repeatedly hits is that the courtship never ends. I can’t remember the movie now, but one of the main themes is the HUSBAND winning a competion to win his WIFE from a doctor making moves on her.

  42. @Shaman – take it over the edge and enjoy it. As you say, she can deal or GTFO.

    I’m still astonished that you guys are bothering to try and educate that retarded LivingTree. It’s like you haven’t yet figured that anything coming out of a woman’s mouth has only one purpose: to deceive you into her frame. Even when she’s agreeing, especially when she’s arguing, and most especially when she’s trying to achieve a consensus or compromise.

    The problem when you compromise is that you have walked away from the truth – what is real. You have been lured into a frame that is not your own and into something that is her frame, or as close as she can currently get you into her frame. She can then use that frame as another starting-point for the next compromise.

    This progress can and will continue until – surprise! – you find that you have entered her frame fully. You’ve compromised and compromised at her bequest, until you have fully given in and become her bitch. You’re under her thumb, living inside her illusion, instead of her being under your thumb and living in the real world.

    There is no surprise that a woman walks from you when she finds how easily bent and twisted from your purpose and plans you are.

    Bronislaw Kaper, musical composer and junior saber champion of Poland: when he watched the new music arts deviate from the classics to undisciplined popularity he declared that people, like their music, lose their way. He saw Kenpo deviate from the Way and declared that he saw the very essence of Kenpo dissipate into absurdity. Even Miyamoto Musashi said that it was very easy to deviate from the Way.

    So, regarding the poor sod who had a rude awakening: he now knows the lie. The fact that he’s even considering staying in that marriage, let alone apologising to her or considering her health and well being as being anything of concern, shows how strong a grip the lie has upon him. The marriage is dead, get the fuck out of it: I did for lesser things and this is so far over the line that you need binoculars to look back at the starting posts.

    1/ post that video of her up on the internet

    2/ leave (beating her to a pulp is optional though not advised)

    Showing any children exactly why you are leaving is also a priority: make it abundantly clear, even though it scars them. Tough shit, the truth is better than any bucket of lies she can then attempt to force-feed them. “Look, mommy got gang-fucked by five other guys and enjoyed it. This is why I’m leaving: she has no decency in her.” In the end you’re doing them a favour and showing them what real life is like, not the cottonwool swaddling and pap that they normally get.

  43. My first impression was that LT showed up (again) and the comment section went to shit (again), but it’s just. too. damn. funny. reading the trainwreck.

    I salute your comment policy, Rollo.

  44. “Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.”

    I am glad I found sites like these a long time a long time ago, because, Jesus, that could have been me.

    Easily.

  45. LT gets her male attention for the day.

    @ Jeremy

    “Yet at the same time the world has changed so much with the advent of female birth control, how do I not demand she put some skin in the game? How does one verify she’s not just going to be holding out on you forever like the poor guy in this post by Rollo, without convincing her to notch an N for your sake?”

    Birth control is definitely the big game changer. However I still stick with the Bible teaching when it comes to fornication….because that never changes. And by the looks of the results…there is a plenty of good reasons why you should avoid it at all costs.

    And how does one verify…well how much does she try to paw at you when she gets the chance…or pursue you…or do things for you. You don’t need to have sex before marriage to see how much she desires you.

  46. “What really angers me is that even now, 60 years after the supposed “sexual revolution”, so many women still feel deeply ashamed about having sexual needs, that they have to cover them up and lie about them”

    Hey ho, arse-about-tit as per usual.
    The reason that women lie about their shagging mileage, so many years after their supposed liberation, is (despite mens’ best efforts to enable their professed desire for independence) because they have money needs, not sex needs.

    Women have a steely determination to depend on Other Buggers’ Efforts which defies all reason and looks set to continue to the end of time.
    To the extent that they demand that Other Peoples’ Children should be bound in servitude and tithed, to provide for them in old age or indigence, rather than those strangers’ children supporting their own families should they ever be fortunate enough to make enough, after tax, to even have a home or children.
    Women are, in the ultimatel analysis, utterly dependent on men. And have only one non-trivial purpose. One wishes fervently that it were otherwise, but they won’t have it any other way. Too difficult.

  47. “And you need to understand that “whore” is a term that should never, ever be used outside of the bedroom, in any way besides affectionately.”

    This could not be more incorrect.

  48. While it behooves men to know the nature of women…it is also wise that IRL they don’t go spreading around they know what women are up to. Unless you enjoy getting into illogical arguments with women who just want your attention.

  49. @nipnup I totally understand it. Your mistake is that you assume every man wants sex and primarily sex. This guy may want a family life more than sex. I actually don’t really like sex much. I like being a husband, dad, having a normal home, family life, normalcy, having a reliable ally type of wife, and generally having a set of duties that give me aim and direction in life. We both are pretty much asexual – see it like bowel movements, a disgusting but necessary function of the body – although managed to do it because we want kids and thankfully she is now pregnant. So now I have a duty in my life, something to live for.

    This seems to be a basic problem with many Manosphere authors, confusing rationality with how people are wired. Surely, if people are wired for wanting sex, and have all sorts of selfish desires to live for, marriage is a bad idea. Irrational.

    Then there are people like me, who need to live for something else than ourselves. Who need the validation that we are capable of making a family and thus live up the example of our parents. The validation that we are not worthless, that we can be dads and not nobodies.

    This is not a question of rationality. This may be a psychological question, or a matter of hormones. But when and if one has this kind of psychlogy or hormonal level this is a perfectly rational choice.

  50. “Long, long way to go and who knows if the marriage will ultimately succeed or not, but the truth is I simply no longer care. I now speak my mind, hold nothing back, piss her off on a daily basis and care less and less whether she gives a shit”

    It’s a hell of a thing, isn’t it? Counterintuitive as all get out.

    Sometimes the only way to save a marriage is to stop caring about whether it is salvageable.

    Sometimes the only way to save a marriage is to stop trying to save it.

    Sometimes the only way to save a marriage is to start destroying it.

  51. @sunshinemary

    “Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?”

    I’d accept it, to a limit tho. If she enjoyed performing with me as much as on the video, at least she’d be consistent. It might leave a sour taste in my mouth but i accept there is no ‘the one’. Depending on age, i wouldn’t expect who i was with to be sitting in her locked tower waiting for me to one day come rescue her.

    That said, i’d leave in a heartbeat if i saw her getting a train run on her by the football team.

    And if she had 50 tapes, with 50 different guys.. she’d be history too.

    I still love how LT conflates female sexuality and desire for sex needing to equal experimentation with hundreds of partners.. as if fulfilling the ‘slut’ requirement cannot be done with a single partner.

    A woman can learn everything about her sexuality, her desires and satiate her love of sex with a minimal of partners. Enjoying sex is not the mark of a slut. Enjoying the feeling of smelling the ‘new car scent’ to the point of addiction makes you a slut. It’s the partner count stupid. Hence the opening picture in the post of the condom collectress.

  52. Morpheus, 12/3, 11:09 pm

    Spot on, steel on target.

    The argument Susan Walsh and like minded women often make is usually something like this:

    “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that you guys were fed a load of BS. But come on, guys! You lived in the real world! You were getting rejected and saw the bad boys and the dickbags getting laid left and right! How come you didn’t figure it out?

    “You should have ignored everything everyone else was telling you. You should have defied your parents and told them to piss up a rope. You should have deliberately disobeyed the authority figures in your life. But hey. You fucked up, you trusted them. You actually believed what they were telling you,

    “Despite the fact that you were young, impressionable, inexperienced and with no power to change any of it, you should have done so. You should have changed it. You should have bucked everything around you, all by yourself, with no help or guidance or instruction from anyone. You should have defied and disobeyed everyone around you, even on pain of severe penalty and retribution from them.

    “You didn’t, and so you made a poor choice. Oh well. Too bad so sad. Now SHUT UP. We’re sick of hearing you whine and complain about decisions that YOU made. It’s YOUR fault that you made decisions with shitty advice and wrongheaded notions about the world that WE gave you. They’re still YOUR decisions. You should have figured out that we were full of shit, but you didn’t. We don’t care about your problems; we care only that you are there to be boyfriends, husbands, packmules and servants for OUR needs, how we need you, when we need you.

    “So SHUT UP and put your nose back to that grindstone.”

    1. We don’t care about your problems; we care only that you are there to be boyfriends, husbands, packmules and servants for OUR needs, how we need you, when we need you.

      Deti,

      I think you just crafted the clearest, most concise definition of the feminine imperative. Sadly, this basically summarizes the HUS “mission” as well. With the new echo chamber of comments, you can actually see this attitude above on full display. I’ve noticed one of her new buzzwords/catch phrases that she likes to use over and over again is “emotional intimacy”. The “good guys” are capable of “emotional intimacy”. What becomes clear though is she is absolutely clueless what this means from a male perspective in terms of expectations. Emotional intimacy is a one-way street flowing from the guy to the woman.

      Rollo, maybe a post idea there on “emotional intimacy” and what that means to a guy/husband? I might take it up myself, but I think you would probably do a much better job than me tackling the subject. I’m not sure you’ve written on it before from a male POV.

    2. The argument Susan Walsh and like minded women often make is usually something like this:

      “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that you guys were fed a load of BS. But come on, guys! You lived in the real world! You were getting rejected and saw the bad boys and the dickbags getting laid left and right! How come you didn’t figure it out?

      “You should have ignored everything everyone else was telling you. You should have defied your parents and told them to piss up a rope. You should have deliberately disobeyed the authority figures in your life. But hey. You fucked up, you trusted them. You actually believed what they were telling you,

      “Despite the fact that you were young, impressionable, inexperienced and with no power to change any of it, you should have done so. You should have changed it. You should have bucked everything around you, all by yourself, with no help or guidance or instruction from anyone. You should have defied and disobeyed everyone around you, even on pain of severe penalty and retribution from them.

      “You didn’t, and so you made a poor choice.

      Deti,

      It just dawned on me that the process as you explained it which I think is absolutely accurate (we are similar ages having grown up in the same cultural backdrop) is basically equivalent to gaslighting. I think at a certain age it is damn near impossible to make sense of something when what you think you are observing as reality is at complete odds with a message that is being delivered repeatedly from all different directions and sources of “authority”. This is why I am so passionate about spreading Red Pill truths and feel revulsion towards those who would continue to propagate lies.

  53. @BlackPoisonSoul

    I’m still astonished that you guys are bothering to try and educate that retarded LivingTree. It’s like you haven’t yet figured that anything coming out of a woman’s mouth has only one purpose: to deceive you into her frame. Even when she’s agreeing, especially when she’s arguing, and most especially when she’s trying to achieve a consensus or compromise.

    Yes, but understand, LivingTree doesn’t understand that that’s her own purpose. She believes she’s being rational.

    I was actually more shocked that Kate thought LT had valid points than anything else.

  54. “What gets me is many women, such as yourself or someone like Aunt Giggles (see Deti’s comment) want to blame the guy when he selects a woman of “bad character”yet at the same time demonize Rollo and what he is trying to do here in shining a spotlight on all the various things women are capable of. Many women want to simultaneously keep men in the dark about various aspects of female nature and psychology, yet also hold him partially responsible in situations like this when he didn’t know any better.”

    Exactly right.

  55. Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?

    No.
    Some guys may say that they wouldn’t care, but that’s simply not true. Men are visual, and the shock of seeing her not only doing it, but enjoying it(which is where the real pain comes from for men), would be something that you would never get past.
    Even if she did it with you, you’d never be able to get rid of the nagging questions…..what else has she done? And with whom? And is she faking with me? And does she secretly want to do my friends?

    In terms of cuckold porn, that has to be filed under the heading of, ‘Good Fantasy, Bad Reality.’ It’s something that guys just think would be fun.

    If you like a moron sit there and watch some guy screw the hell out of your wife and think that your relationship will ever be the same, think again.

  56. This is just a lazy shlub who never wanted to face reality. I feel bad for him on a personal level because this is a heartbreaking situation. However, with so many clear red flags in prior behavior, the only lesson we should draw is to take life seriously and not settle for anything except what we really want. The woman is just a disingenuous bitch, but the reason we have a victim is because he willingly let himself become one. Otherwise, she would be trolling for a different sucker.

  57. @ Rollo

    “LT will never appreciate the red pill perspective because her life’s conditioning has been one of denying the evolved psychology, biological predispositions and hardwired neurological vestiges that influences human behavior today.”

    CH’s post yesterday on brain pattern science must have sent her over the edge.

  58. It’s probably too late for this marriage, but this may help the guy in the future:

    http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339

    I feel bad for the guy and even worse for the daughter. However, he is an example of the pathology of the ‘Nice Guy’ that infects so many men in the world. It is the nice guys that are the betas in the ‘beta bucks’ side of the equation. Most of the white knights in the world are also nice guys. It is a disease that enables much of the bad behavior of women, and it is the nice guys/betas that financially support the whole rotten system.

    Women aren’t going to change unless forced to.

    The Nice guys must change – they must be cured though self knowledge and red pill knowledge. It just sucks that so many men only wake up after their world is destroyed. Stories like this and the millions of others like it should be required reading for young men, or even better, a father should have be the one to open their sons eyes.

  59. @earl

    And how does one verify…well how much does she try to paw at you when she gets the chance…or pursue you…or do things for you. You don’t need to have sex before marriage to see how much she desires you.

    I’d rather leave God’s commandments out of this, if only because Rollo and others have outlined perfectly valid reasons for women to want to protect their virginity even if religion never existed.

    I would say that that is not verification. I’ve actually witnessed friends *and* family fall prey to women who were extraordinarily “hot-to-trot” (but chaste) while dating, only to turn into icebergs after marriage. My brother had this happen to him with his first wife, she was totally eager to engage in everything up to the deed before, but when married they had sex like twice a year or some such. This is why I say that it is not verification.

  60. It’s obvious the guy in the story fell in love with her and did the ‘feminine imperative’, feminist approved right thing to do every step of the way..

    Not press for her for the sex he wanted
    Not be a dick and respect her boundaries
    To repress his beastly sexual oppression of wanting her to give him a blowjob.. that animal
    To accept her ‘as she is’, faults and all
    Respect her needs and wishes
    What kind of sick twisted fuck are you to think of NEXTing such a wonderful woman because she won’t sex you up like you want you borderline rapist
    Blowjobs are oppression.. but you go down on her and you like it boy.. or she’ll find someone else who can be a man and do the j.o.b.
    If you love her, you’ll tough it out

    If he nexted her early, he would have been the villain. He nexts her after the tape, he’s a villian. He’s damned every way. There is no winning play in girlworld except sucking it up and taking it.

    You can’t negotiate desire, she has none for him.

    If he had this tape 7 years ago and saw it before getting married, im sure they’d never gotten married in the first place, either for being outted for a slut, or for realizing he was getting tepid sex in the wake of other ‘stranger menfolk’ getting the best sex she had to offer.. in feminist parlance.. ENTHUSIASTIC CONSENSUAL SEX.

  61. Jeremey said:
    “I’ve actually witnessed friends *and* family fall prey to women who were extraordinarily “hot-to-trot” (but chaste) while dating, only to turn into icebergs after marriage. My brother had this happen to him with his first wife, she was totally eager to engage in everything up to the deed before, but when married they had sex like twice a year or some such.”

    And they say guys who use game to trick a women into bed are manipulative…

  62. @New Yorker

    I tend to agree. Being blind and unaware of your surroundings is not the mark of a victim, it the mark the next antelope that kills. There are not victims, we are the makers of our lives – that is first thing this Man will have to realize. It was his choice to first date then marry this woman – from what I can gather, this was not an arranged marriage – there were no guns pointed at his head. It was still a choice.

    Once again, this should be a cautionary tale to any Man that is not married today. Take your time, truly “vet” the situation and people involved. You are not buying a pack of gum at the convenience store. This is not a trivial matter.

    Most of these heartbreaking stories, could have been averted, if a little more time was taken to be “logical” in the decision process and not driven by emotions. Someone mentioned staying within your Frame, not the woman’s – I think most men, when they decide to get married, get lost in their soon-to-be wife’s frame – it is the first step to becoming the “Great American Beta Husband” [insert different country as needed].

  63. The good news is they divorced about as amicably as you’ve ever seen. No kids, assets split down the middle, no alimony. He still lost out on the deal, because he paid for her degree in accounting.

  64. I think people are forgetting the volatility of a woman’s own desires. This guy did the Alpha thing (mostly) and flat out confronted her on her prudish behavior.

    However, desiring a woman to want to do those things should be of no consequence to him. I know it seems like he’d be using her and that she’d be doing it out of fear. But eventually that fear will subside and as long as she keeps on doing those things with him in the process, she will want to do it.

    Right now, this man is choking on the Red Pill (can we get a different analogy for it, I hated that fucking movie), but I think he can turn things around.

    This is whole ordeal is exactly why slut shaming is essential for civilization. Past slutty behavior often ends up with prudish, uptight behavior later on, once a white knight has “saved” her. But there is always that lingering uneasiness that he wasn’t her best and that she doesn’t want to be his slut. And thus we see the end of marriages as a result.

    It is better for a man to marry a virgin or remain single. Always has been, always will be until the end of this life.

  65. @Deti… Yes, counterintuitive and 180 degrees different than everything I was told when being raised by a single mom (absent beta father) about being a “nice boy.”

    Intriguingly, I had my alpha and beta days growing up. Alpha always worked and got me laid, beta never worked and got me dumped or LJBF’d. You think I would have internalized the results and opted for alpha but the feminist imperative/feminist conditioning was THAT strong.

    @Redpillsetmefree
    “In terms of cuckold porn, that has to be filed under the heading of, ‘Good Fantasy, Bad Reality.’ It’s something that guys just think would be fun.”

    I never thought of it as “good fantasy”. It’s not even that I thought it would be fun or enjoyable. And it wasn’t something I ever wanted to really try…ever. Best as I can deconstruct it, it was the eroticization of shame pure and simple — the subconscious shame I felt as a consequence of pedestalizing women and still being walked all over by them.

    The shame eventually sought an erotic outlet until I realized what was causing it. I can almost guarantee that men who have cuckold or “hot wife” fantasies are dealing with huge degrees of shame and are revolted by their beta behavior.

    The good news is that the minute I “alpha’d up”, the fantasies evaporated and I now have no interest or compulsion whatsoever in revisiting these very dark recesses of my psyche.

  66. Jack Schitz

    December 3rd, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    Not a smart move. This whore is still his daughter’s mother. Wouldn’t want to do that to my kid.

  67. @swiftfoxmark2

    However, desiring a woman to want to do those things should be of no consequence to him. I know it seems like he’d be using her and that she’d be doing it out of fear. But eventually that fear will subside and as long as she keeps on doing those things with him in the process, she will want to do it.

    He was led to believe that she loved him. He was led to believe that she simply couldn’t stomach (swallow?) those extra activities that he wanted to do, but still loved him regardless. He then discovered a video that she kept around for years, even during their marriage, that showed she was willing to do these other things with near strangers, if not total strangers. How can you possibly continue under those circumstances? I hear what you’re saying. He could just be alpha and disregard her feelings entirely, but that is not the life he committed to. That is not the life she led him to believe he was getting. That would be an entirely different relationship than the one she fraudulently enabled.

  68. @Shaman

    I never thought of it as “good fantasy”. It’s not even that I thought it would be fun or enjoyable. And it wasn’t something I ever wanted to really try…ever. Best as I can deconstruct it, it was the eroticization of shame pure and simple — the subconscious shame I felt as a consequence of pedestalizing women and still being walked all over by them.

    The shame eventually sought an erotic outlet until I realized what was causing it. I can almost guarantee that men who have cuckold or “hot wife” fantasies are dealing with huge degrees of shame and are revolted by their beta behavior.

    The good news is that the minute I “alpha’d up”, the fantasies evaporated and I now have no interest or compulsion whatsoever in revisiting these very dark recesses of my psyche.

    Most newer porn types are based on some kind of eroticized shame. Cuckold porn is just one among probably hundreds of types that could be directly linked to 3rd gen feminism shaming natural masculinity.

    The hilarious thing about it all is that while all this expression of shamed masculinity is coming out… women’s biggest beef with porn is the “objectification of women”. But if actually know porn, in most porn ever made, the woman is usually shown head-to-butt in frame, she’s usually front-and-center and the center of the action. In contrast, the man is usually represented only by his genitalia, the rest of him being off-frame. So, who exactly is being objectified? The woman whose usually beautiful body takes up most of the frame, who is at least represented as a whole human being, or the man who is reduced to a faceless cock, and might as well be fake?

  69. “I think at a certain age it is damn near impossible to make sense of something when what you think you are observing as reality is at complete odds with a message that is being delivered repeatedly from all different directions and sources of “authority”.”

    Yes, exactly. Because what you are seeing is something you have no real world experience with until it happens. Then you have your parents and “authorities” telling you that what you’re seeing is not really what you’re seeing; but instead is something else entirely: “Those girls are just stupid.” “You’re obviously not being nice enough.” You also have “authorities” telling you that if you so much as look at some girl for a few seconds too long, that’s sexual harassment and you’ll get kicked out of school; lose your job, face criminal sanctions, etc.

  70. I am actually shocked at how many posters here are talking about fixing it for two simple reasons….

    1. For the marriage.
    2. For the child.

    Number one is just bunk. Marriage doesn’t mean $hit anymore. Wives get married at 30 when they are done wh0ring around, divorce 50% of the time and men get cleaned out.

    Now tell me, why should a man have to sacrifice and pay the bill due for the awful decisions made by a wh0re, all for the sake of “marriage”? Seriously? Listen up fellas, society doesn’t respect marriage, women don’t respect marriage, and YOU should not respect marriage. It is only a tool used to extract everything possible from a man’s sense of “honor”. Stop being fools and wake up.

    2. Now this one I could believe, but children are smart and perceptive. His daughter will know that the marriage is loveless. Better to have two households where at least one is not toxic, than to have one toxic household to live in.

    He needs to do what is right for him and walk away so he can salvage the remainder of his life.

    She made all of these mistakes, and her concession is to ask HIM to sacrifice as a result of it. W.T.F.

  71. @Morpheus:

    “The “good guys” are capable of “emotional intimacy”. What becomes clear though is she is absolutely clueless what this means from a male perspective in terms of expectations. Emotional intimacy is a one-way street flowing from the guy to the woman.”

    Blue pill/HUS “emotional intimacy” appears to mean

    “he gives me what I want and he just knows what I want and need when I want and need it”.

    “whatever I want it to mean at that moment in time”.

    See, this I think is what Badger and others mean when they talk about how feminism and the current SMP and MMP have left most men deeply, deeply confused about how to get what they want while simultaneously “doing their part” in a one-on-one relationship. Most men are deeply confused about everything – sex roles, how to comport themselves in relationships, what a relationship is, female sexual desire, EVERYTHING.

    All the more reason for men to pursue their own wants and needs, and chuck everything else out the window.

    1. After seeing all this worthless back and forth with LT I came to realize it doesnt matter. I dont care if a woman, or women in general, can sympathize or not with this guys feelings. Its an interest exercise but pushing it is pointless. This is how men feel and its not going to change. The reasons and whys men feel this way are out there to explore, if any woman wants to understand these things, but really, it doesnt matter.

      Bottom line, if the genders were reversed and the story would be told from the perspective of a woman, she’ll get all the support and blaming the man for the jerk he is. If its not he withholding sex, make it about money, commitment, time, whatever. Women complain – favorite sport – and divorce for much lighter things, from the toothbrush to not getting enough love letter to you name it. This whole thing is permeated by the wall of not wanting to deal with men wants, desires, expectation, psychology, and the need to silence them (man up) to make room for even more female whining about their own desires, wants, and psychology.

      But fuck it. End of pointless trying to get a woman “understand” which is more like dialectical raping a snake of smoke and mirrors.

      This is how men feel, it doesnt need any woman or political faction to be validated. Instead use that information for your own benefit or ignore it for your own detriment.

      1. But fuck it. End of pointless trying to get a woman “understand” which is more like dialectical raping a snake of smoke and mirrors.

        This is how men feel, it doesnt need any woman or political faction to be validated. Instead use that information for your own benefit or ignore it for your own detriment.

        Amen.

  72. Recently the Canadian newspaper National Post asked readers to send letters on the topic: What invention has benefited you the most? Most were obvious like the printing press, airplanes, the Internet, flush toilets etc. Here is a slightly different one:

    “The world as learned more in the past 10 years about female sexuality than in the previous 10,000 due to the complementary metal-oxide-semiconductor (CMOS) technology found in cameras and cell phones. Without it, we would all be back in the dark ages where women were as mysterious as the stars.”

    This was printed in one of Canada’s two national newspapers!

  73. I went through nearly the same shit that man did, and I can feel the intense pain he’s going through. Same thing, wife very cold and withheld sex, but she did have multiple affairs at the end of the marriage. It’s a bitter pill to swallow when you realize you were a sucker beta provider. I quickly hired an attorney, divorced her, and have joint custody. I came out OK on the settlement, too. Learned some game, and I’m now enjoying bachelorhood.

    This is what would happen if he tried to work it out – He would hold in that anger and it would eat him up from the inside, probably manifesting in a health problem. They would go to counseling until he formally forgave her, and then the forgiveness would be used against him from that point forward. Oh, and she would only be with him to secure provisioning while she plans for divorce on her terms, and/or secures the next provider.

  74. That’s why people married early before, and by early I mean not after teens. Human beings feel the urge to mate since very young (is an hypocrisy to ignore it). And by marrying young we were forced to mature and develop our abilities to survive. A way better way to grow compared to the common traumatic lifes of the pregnant teenagers. Thats how financial empires were build, from a solid family working together, the their children inherit it and continue to build it through generations of work and emotional stability (and thats one of the reason ‘you-know-who’ invest so much in the destruction of women, and throught it the destruction of family).
    And that’s why the elders choose who would marry with who. Exclude some marriages for interest for those who were rich, most parents choose only the best consorts possible for their children because they LOVED them. They could not be the most handsome/pretty, but most of them were good people from friendly families, who would stuck with you for the best and worse. And love would grow from there, from sharing the efforts to constroy a family and feed it together.
    It creeps me out to think it could have been my future son in this position or my future daugther causing it.
    Let’s pray those kids future is brighter than ours.
    Good luck!

  75. Do you fellows fall for every hoax, or just the sex fantasies in which you detect a potential “teaching moment”?

    This “confession” screams cuckold slutwife sex fantasy. The woman’s psychology is inconsistent and sounds like it was fabricated by a man who has watched too much porn. The kind of woman who would subject herself to a videotaped gang bang, while seemingly common to a certain species of internet denizen addicted to prurience, is actually a deeply disturbed and rare female. You skip over probabilities in haste to make your academic points about the nature of women.

    He “stumbled” upon her video after seven years? She betrayed absolutely no signs of her extreme, abject depravity for that entire time but rather erased it from her psyche altogether and, in fact, somehow achieved the absolute opposite: unhealthy marital prudishness? This only happens on porn sets and in fapper fantasies. And if it ever were to happen in real life, it would be so anomalous that it would be an exception proving the rule.

    Who has had experiences like Mr. Reddit Fabulist had? How many men have you spoken to with anything close to a similar real-life circumstance? Do not believe everything you read on the internet.

    Not convinced? Okay. Grant that the entire story is genuine. Now imagine these people as they truly are. They are Maury Povich/Jerry Springer white trash. The woman is ugly, the man is a loser. The videotape is not HD porn, it’s a fuzzy videotaped melange of fat people, runaway pubic hair, and oily sleaze. Those are the kind of people who do those kinds of things.

    If you don’t believe me, go to any nudist colony or look at any swinger couple. Look at the porn stars of the 70s-90s — before the advent of ubiquitous video — were there any genuinely pretty ones who had alternatives?

    Beautiful — and even average — people do not have to deprave themselves to get sexual satisfaction, whereas the dregs of sexual value are forced to make up for their physical deficiencies with an openness to extreme acts. The only place where normal-to-beautiful people do this in real life is, again, in the porn industry. Because they are paid.

    Look, I understand your community enthusiasm when a story emerges to prove your philosophy by example. In journalism they call this a story “too good to check” for facts. Your rush to draw conclusions makes sense. But a moment’s reflection would have made you realize the improbabilities.

    And as if to put an exclamation point on his bullshit, he concludes by saying, “I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage.” The very last thing on the mind of a man truly devastated by the precipitous collapse of his family would have been the “fulfilling sex lives” of either of them — especially hers! — since that was the death blow to their marriage in the first place. Unless, of course, the whole point was for a cuckold to sublimate his fantasy into plausible sounding psychology for the consumption of the gullible and quick-skimming.

    Matt

    1. This only happens on porn sets and in fapper fantasies. And if it ever were to happen in real life, it would be so anomalous that it would be an exception proving the rule.

      Yet you get all these people saying there’s nothing wrong with her behavior and telling him to man up.

    2. @ Matt King,

      None of us can be certain about the veracity of the story. That said, I don’t think your reasoning that it is an “obvious” fake has any validity. I’d point you to this post from Badger:

      http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/unbelievable/

      Danger&Play recently posted a fantastic tweet that mirrored the subtext of some of his game-centric posts:
      “At some point in the game, your stories shouldn’t even sound believable to regular people. That’s how awesome being alive today is.”
      I’ve had a couple of game-oriented friends whose exploits were really unbelievable, and I wouldn’t have bought it had I not been there or seen photos. 

      I bounced for awhile many years back. I saw stuff and knew of stuff I never would have believed prior to bouncing. I’d bet a number of C notes that both Rollo and Yohami could tell us some pretty “unbelievable” stories that are completely true.

      I believe there is a very primal aspect to female sexuality that under the right circumstances can be unleashed. Probably some alchohol to loosen inhibitions, then you just need the right frame, context, and guys possessing the right mix of dominance and short-term sexy traits, and then I think one would be shocked at the percentage of women who once in that situation will throw caution to the wind, and do just about anything. I know multiple guys who have shared stories with me that sort of all corroborate this basic fact. I think women properly raised in good homes with strong father figures have the necessary ingredients to fight off certain instincts, and also know how to prevent themselves from ever getting in certain situations in the first place.

      The story may be false, but there is absolutely nothing about it that rings obviously false. Anyone who has seen behind the curtain knows stuff like this does in fact happen, and not just amongst the fat and ugly crowd.

      1. @Matt,
        http://therationalmale.com/2013/03/19/quality-women/

        Back when he had a terrestrial radio show Tom Leykis did a topic about this: He had everyday women call in and tell their stories of how they used to be sexually (i.e. slutty) and how they are now. He came up with this after driving past a grade school on his way to the studio and seeing all of the women there waiting for their kids to come out and wondered about what their lives used to be like in their childless 20s. This was a wildly popular topic and the confessions just poured in like all of these women had been waiting for years to come clean anonymously about the sexual past that their husbands would never dream they were capable of. Each of these women sounded proud of themselves, almost nostalgic, as if they were some kind of past accomplishments.

        This is why I laugh at the concept of the Quality woman. Don’t misinterpret that as a “women = shit” binary opinion. I mean it in the sense that most guy’s concept of a quality woman is an unrealistic idealization. There’s not a guy in the world who committed to monogamy with a woman who didn’t think she was ‘quality’ when he was with her. Even if she was a clinical neurotic before he hooked up with her, she’s still got “other redeeming qualities” that make her worth the effort. It’s only afterwards when the world he built up around her idealization comes crashing down in flames that she “really wasn’t a Quality Woman.”

        This call-in your sexual past theme was such a success Leykis repeated it at least once a year on his terrestrial show and again since he came online.

        I’ll see if I can track down one of these podcast episodes.

  76. Lol, busted. This is the most dramatic, most horrifying, hilarious and tragic busted story ever. Loving all the manginas immediately calling her actions a result of rape or sexual abuse. Even when she never mentioned any rape or abuse herself (and kept the rape tape around). Don’t worry, regretful liars, even if you forget to accuse someone of rape, the caring manginas will do it for you.
    Also, funny how livingtree was berating the guy in capslock and the culture the most, while criticism of the wife is more like an afterthought.

  77. @Matt

    He “stumbled” upon her video after seven years? She betrayed absolutely no signs of her extreme, abject depravity for that entire time but rather erased it from her psyche altogether and, in fact, somehow achieved the absolute opposite: unhealthy marital prudishness? This only happens on porn sets and in fapper fantasies. And if it ever were to happen in real life, it would be so anomalous that it would be an exception proving the rule.

    Actually, no, you’re wrong. It happens all the time. There are multiple women I know personally who have extraordinarily depraved sex lives from when they were younger (probably worse than I know about), and their current husband/co-habitation partner has absolutely no idea. One of these women still insists on having breakfast with me (no, not that kind of wake up meal) every 9/80 Friday morning. Her partner, the father of her kids probably has no idea that she even does this. I presume she does this because she knows she would rather have not chosen a beta with no career and no income to be the father of her kids. She’s alpha pining, and I never even did the deed with her, lol.

    Women are absolutely able to pretend that what happened when they were young doesn’t “matter” and is not their partners business as a result.

    This specific story may be bullshit, but the reality is this sort of thing actually does happen.

  78. The only way to save a marriage like this is to completely destroy the marriage that existed before, and rebuild it from the ground up. A few caveats:

    1. She has to agree to every condition you set, without fail and without even the slightest deviation. This is nonnegotiable.

    2. Sex on demand. Also nonnegotiable.

    3. It requires constant vigilance. You have to absolutely crush disrespect. You have to be willing and able to run some decent asshole game; and graduate to full on Dread if necessary.

    4. Forget about the niceguy, relaxation you used to have in your marriage before. It won’t work, it’s gone, and it wasn’t real anyway. You must clear your eyes and head about any illusions you had about marriage. The kind of marriage you wanted or thought you had is gone, and you’ll never, ever have that.

    5. It might not work. You still might get divorced. If that happens, be ready to go to war.

  79. Matt King:

    Sorry, I’m with Jeremy, Morpheus and Yohami on this one. The story might be embellished, but I can tell you that similar things like this happen all the time. I know it first hand, as anyone familiar with my commentary can attest. My wife lied about her N before we married and became a sexual prude. The exchanges we had about those discussions went down in similar fashion:

    -truth emerges

    -confrontation

    -confession

    -rationalization, justification, explanation

    –“don’t you judge me” “you did it too” “It’s in the past it doesn’t matter”

    -crying, weeping, begging, pleading “I’ll do whatever you want”

    -decision made to end marriage or attempt salvaging it

    -destruction of prior marriage dynamic with new, Game-based dynamic

  80. @Deti,

    Sure, it *could* be saved if all those things were done. But the average blue-balled, blue-pilled beta male is not in the right state of mind to even conceive of how those things help him. It has to be better to blow up the marriage, take the lumps, learn the hard lessons, and find something better.

  81. @Rollo Tomassi

    I’ve personally counseled at least 4 men IRL and 3 online relating almost identical variations of this story.

    Sounds like you’ve got quite a collection of cuckold porn stacking up there…

  82. @Jeremy

    I hear what you’re saying. He could just be alpha and disregard her feelings entirely, but that is not the life he committed to.

    I didn’t mean for him to disregard her feelings. He did that already. I’m saying he needs to disregard his own and stop whining. Sure, he has every right to mourn the past seven years of his life he’s wasted with this prudish whore, but mourning is process that can be done with in a few days.

    After that, he needs to take action and either make his marriage better or, if she has been cheating on him, end it quickly. I suspect, though, that she hasn’t cheated on him at all in those seven years.

  83. “I believe there is a very primal aspect to female sexuality that under the right circumstances can be unleashed.”

    Yes there is. I’ve long said: Right man, right time, right circumstances, low risk of detection, and many married women will cheat. I’ve heard too many stories from bartenders and bouncers talking about seeing married women slut it up at bars on girls nights out to believe otherwise. I’ve seen too many married women sloshed on rum and Cokes and hanging all over some old flame at a high school reunion to believe otherwise. I’ve heard too many women confess to partner counts north of 20 to believe otherwise.

  84. @swiftfoxmark2

    I suspect, though, that she hasn’t cheated on him at all in those seven years.

    This is like saying that because you’ve never seen an alcoholic drink in public for 7 years, that they’ve never had a drop in that span. Most alcoholics are experts at hiding their problem, and remaining functional despite their issue. Can you honestly say you suspect this woman has not cheated on him just because she hasn’t been putting out for him? Isn’t that like saying, “Well shit, this house is dry, there’s no way that alchy has been drinking whisky!”

  85. @Jeremy
    “women’s biggest beef with porn is the “objectification of women”. But if actually know porn, in most porn ever made, the woman is usually shown head-to-butt in frame, she’s usually front-and-center and the center of the action. In contrast, the man is usually represented only by his genitalia, the rest of him being off-frame. So, who exactly is being objectified?”

    The book “A Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the Internet Tells Us About Sexual Relationships” has an interesting treatment of this phenomena. The researchers concluded that men’s sexual arousal is primarily visual and women’s is primarily mental — so we really are interested in looking at tits, ass and female genitalia…

    Women, not so much. They don’t really care about looking at naked men, cocks, balls, etc, but are far more sexually aroused based on elaborate scenarios — hence the explosion of “chick porn” (romance novels), that, by the way, rake in far more revenue than online porn according to the book.

    Where it gets really interesting though is **what** scenarios are most prevalent in chick porn. Care to guess?

    According to the authors, it’s rape fantasies… Women being overwhelmed and having their clothes torn off by some sweaty, swarthy pirate-type who takes them against their will ties them to the mast as the rest of the ogling shipmates look on and has his way with her. It’s a theme that shows up over and over again.

    If you ever needed overwhelming evidence that women aren’t turned on by a supplicating beta in the bedroom (or anywhere else for that matter), but would rather be dominated, overwhelmed and forced to surrender, just look at what they’re reading.

  86. Let’s drill down into this…

    I want to hear some theories on WHY the woman in the story enjoyed being a “filthy whore” so much…

    “In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it.”
    -OP

    “As f-ed up as it sounds, if he had slapped her during that conversation, he might have started the tinglings of the attraction that he never aroused in her before”
    -Jeremy

    “If he wants a whore for a wife, maybe he just has to start treating her like one”
    -tank

    “,..and in other news 5-way gang-bang bukkake double-penetration amateur video pornography has just been codified as a “Sexual Need” by Femipedia”
    -Rollo

    “Almost certainly, it’s just the tip of the iceberg.”
    -deti

    Is it a Sperm Wars thing? Are we looking at a situation where, when provisioning is plentiful and basic needs are easily met (therefore women don’t have to latch on to one guy to survive), Mother Nature’s strategy switches to getting filled with as much semen as possible (and letting the sperm duke it out inside her on the way to the egg)? Extra bonus that semen contains serotonin so she gets high?

    Or is it something else? Clearly, there are pathogenic (STD) risks to that strategy…

    “Being a gangbanged slut still has grave consequences…”
    -earl

    Why is there so often the accompanying desire to be disrespected/defiled? Even including violence?

    The consensus here seems to be that deep down, it exists to some degree in all women. And it’s clearly showing up more and more, even as the veneer of our society appears to be headed in the other direction (i.e. women are outwardly seizing more and more control).

    In other words, the Red Pill does a great job of explaining why, on some level, all women loathe the Nice Guy who’s intelligent, diligent, and productive, but pedestalizes them and can’t seem to speak up for what he wants.

    But why, as it appears, do the same women, on some level or at some point in their lives, want to be treated as – and think of themselves as – filthy whores?

  87. But why, as it appears, do the same women, on some level or at some point in their lives, want to be treated as – and think of themselves as – filthy whores?

    For some reason, people can’t seem to grasp that just because a woman’s triggers are different than a man’s, that she wouldn’t want nasty, dirty, swarthy, slimy sexual experiences just like men do.

    At some level, and I’ll have to study it out to find if my theory is true, I suspect it has something to do with the pedestalization of European females in the West. That women in general, but white women in particular, at some point got presented as pristine, “innocent,” naive creatures with no sexual thoughts, drives, or desires and people en masse accepted this image. This ridiculous idea that us men were the only ones with nasty, pornographic thoughts.

    So the Red Pill effect of making men realize what has actually always been true….that women have a feral sexuality that they long to unleash….seems shocking to some. But that truth has always been self-evident; if you give a woman that right context, she will screw up such a storm until the men will be exhausted and she’ll be begging for more.

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