Saving the Best

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To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.

I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.

I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.

I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.

Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?

Her: Why are we talking about this?

Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?

Her: are you taking drugs?

Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.

She starts crying.

Me: Do you have anything to say?

She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.

Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.

She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut

Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.

She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.

She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.

Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.

She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.

Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.

She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you

Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.

Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.

I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.

I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.

As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.

I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.

Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”

I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.

I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.

Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.

There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.

As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.

There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.

Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.

The Best of Her

The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.

Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.

Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.

Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.

One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.

I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.

I Want You to Want Me

Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

[…] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change

What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.

He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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john
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Jack Schitz

December 3rd, 2013 at 4:15 pm

Not a smart move. This whore is still his daughter’s mother. Wouldn’t want to do that to my kid.

Jeremy
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@swiftfoxmark2 However, desiring a woman to want to do those things should be of no consequence to him. I know it seems like he’d be using her and that she’d be doing it out of fear. But eventually that fear will subside and as long as she keeps on doing those things with him in the process, she will want to do it. He was led to believe that she loved him. He was led to believe that she simply couldn’t stomach (swallow?) those extra activities that he wanted to do, but still loved him regardless. He then discovered a… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Shaman I never thought of it as “good fantasy”. It’s not even that I thought it would be fun or enjoyable. And it wasn’t something I ever wanted to really try…ever. Best as I can deconstruct it, it was the eroticization of shame pure and simple — the subconscious shame I felt as a consequence of pedestalizing women and still being walked all over by them. The shame eventually sought an erotic outlet until I realized what was causing it. I can almost guarantee that men who have cuckold or “hot wife” fantasies are dealing with huge degrees of shame… Read more »

earl
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earl
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Then it seems the fastest way to hell for a man is through a woman.

Morpheus
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The argument Susan Walsh and like minded women often make is usually something like this: “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that you guys were fed a load of BS. But come on, guys! You lived in the real world! You were getting rejected and saw the bad boys and the dickbags getting laid left and right! How come you didn’t figure it out? “You should have ignored everything everyone else was telling you. You should have defied your parents and told them to piss up a rope. You should have deliberately disobeyed the authority figures in your life. But hey.… Read more »

deti
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“I think at a certain age it is damn near impossible to make sense of something when what you think you are observing as reality is at complete odds with a message that is being delivered repeatedly from all different directions and sources of “authority”.” Yes, exactly. Because what you are seeing is something you have no real world experience with until it happens. Then you have your parents and “authorities” telling you that what you’re seeing is not really what you’re seeing; but instead is something else entirely: “Those girls are just stupid.” “You’re obviously not being nice enough.”… Read more »

Danger
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I am actually shocked at how many posters here are talking about fixing it for two simple reasons…. 1. For the marriage. 2. For the child. Number one is just bunk. Marriage doesn’t mean $hit anymore. Wives get married at 30 when they are done wh0ring around, divorce 50% of the time and men get cleaned out. Now tell me, why should a man have to sacrifice and pay the bill due for the awful decisions made by a wh0re, all for the sake of “marriage”? Seriously? Listen up fellas, society doesn’t respect marriage, women don’t respect marriage, and YOU… Read more »

deti
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@Morpheus: “The “good guys” are capable of “emotional intimacy”. What becomes clear though is she is absolutely clueless what this means from a male perspective in terms of expectations. Emotional intimacy is a one-way street flowing from the guy to the woman.” Blue pill/HUS “emotional intimacy” appears to mean “he gives me what I want and he just knows what I want and need when I want and need it”. “whatever I want it to mean at that moment in time”. See, this I think is what Badger and others mean when they talk about how feminism and the current… Read more »

Jeremy
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Well, some porn is pure animation, not sure how I could squeeze that into being cuckold since the “actors” don’t exist.

randall g
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Recently the Canadian newspaper National Post asked readers to send letters on the topic: What invention has benefited you the most? Most were obvious like the printing press, airplanes, the Internet, flush toilets etc. Here is a slightly different one:

“The world as learned more in the past 10 years about female sexuality than in the previous 10,000 due to the complementary metal-oxide-semiconductor (CMOS) technology found in cameras and cell phones. Without it, we would all be back in the dark ages where women were as mysterious as the stars.”

This was printed in one of Canada’s two national newspapers!

Neo
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I went through nearly the same shit that man did, and I can feel the intense pain he’s going through. Same thing, wife very cold and withheld sex, but she did have multiple affairs at the end of the marriage. It’s a bitter pill to swallow when you realize you were a sucker beta provider. I quickly hired an attorney, divorced her, and have joint custody. I came out OK on the settlement, too. Learned some game, and I’m now enjoying bachelorhood. This is what would happen if he tried to work it out – He would hold in that… Read more »

S.Helena
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That’s why people married early before, and by early I mean not after teens. Human beings feel the urge to mate since very young (is an hypocrisy to ignore it). And by marrying young we were forced to mature and develop our abilities to survive. A way better way to grow compared to the common traumatic lifes of the pregnant teenagers. Thats how financial empires were build, from a solid family working together, the their children inherit it and continue to build it through generations of work and emotional stability (and thats one of the reason ‘you-know-who’ invest so much… Read more »

Matthew King
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Do you fellows fall for every hoax, or just the sex fantasies in which you detect a potential “teaching moment”? This “confession” screams cuckold slutwife sex fantasy. The woman’s psychology is inconsistent and sounds like it was fabricated by a man who has watched too much porn. The kind of woman who would subject herself to a videotaped gang bang, while seemingly common to a certain species of internet denizen addicted to prurience, is actually a deeply disturbed and rare female. You skip over probabilities in haste to make your academic points about the nature of women. He “stumbled” upon… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Good morning Roe, I did respond to your last night’s post before I left my desk, but my computer had a meltdown in the process of uploading it. Too bad, it was good (I thought so anyway)… Anyway, the gist of it was, yes, it is completely counter-intuitive, you’re absolutely right. There’s nothing intuitive about that response at all, but there is nothing rational really, at all, about the operation of the human psyche under duress. But that’s my point exactly. I’m adamant that most women/girls really need a large amount of psychiatric assistance, because they really don’t know how… Read more »

YOHAMI
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This only happens on porn sets and in fapper fantasies. And if it ever were to happen in real life, it would be so anomalous that it would be an exception proving the rule.

Yet you get all these people saying there’s nothing wrong with her behavior and telling him to man up.

Emma the Emo
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Lol, busted. This is the most dramatic, most horrifying, hilarious and tragic busted story ever. Loving all the manginas immediately calling her actions a result of rape or sexual abuse. Even when she never mentioned any rape or abuse herself (and kept the rape tape around). Don’t worry, regretful liars, even if you forget to accuse someone of rape, the caring manginas will do it for you.
Also, funny how livingtree was berating the guy in capslock and the culture the most, while criticism of the wife is more like an afterthought.

Jeremy
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@Matt He “stumbled” upon her video after seven years? She betrayed absolutely no signs of her extreme, abject depravity for that entire time but rather erased it from her psyche altogether and, in fact, somehow achieved the absolute opposite: unhealthy marital prudishness? This only happens on porn sets and in fapper fantasies. And if it ever were to happen in real life, it would be so anomalous that it would be an exception proving the rule. Actually, no, you’re wrong. It happens all the time. There are multiple women I know personally who have extraordinarily depraved sex lives from when… Read more »

deti
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The only way to save a marriage like this is to completely destroy the marriage that existed before, and rebuild it from the ground up. A few caveats: 1. She has to agree to every condition you set, without fail and without even the slightest deviation. This is nonnegotiable. 2. Sex on demand. Also nonnegotiable. 3. It requires constant vigilance. You have to absolutely crush disrespect. You have to be willing and able to run some decent asshole game; and graduate to full on Dread if necessary. 4. Forget about the niceguy, relaxation you used to have in your marriage… Read more »

Morpheus
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@ Matt King, None of us can be certain about the veracity of the story. That said, I don’t think your reasoning that it is an “obvious” fake has any validity. I’d point you to this post from Badger: http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/unbelievable/ Danger&Play recently posted a fantastic tweet that mirrored the subtext of some of his game-centric posts: “At some point in the game, your stories shouldn’t even sound believable to regular people. That’s how awesome being alive today is.” I’ve had a couple of game-oriented friends whose exploits were really unbelievable, and I wouldn’t have bought it had I not been there or… Read more »

deti
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Matt King: Sorry, I’m with Jeremy, Morpheus and Yohami on this one. The story might be embellished, but I can tell you that similar things like this happen all the time. I know it first hand, as anyone familiar with my commentary can attest. My wife lied about her N before we married and became a sexual prude. The exchanges we had about those discussions went down in similar fashion: -truth emerges -confrontation -confession -rationalization, justification, explanation –“don’t you judge me” “you did it too” “It’s in the past it doesn’t matter” -crying, weeping, begging, pleading “I’ll do whatever you… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Deti,

Sure, it *could* be saved if all those things were done. But the average blue-balled, blue-pilled beta male is not in the right state of mind to even conceive of how those things help him. It has to be better to blow up the marriage, take the lumps, learn the hard lessons, and find something better.

deti
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Jeremy:

Only reason to do any of that stuff I listed above is if kids are involved. There is in this situation.

Jeremy
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@Rollo Tomassi

I’ve personally counseled at least 4 men IRL and 3 online relating almost identical variations of this story.

Sounds like you’ve got quite a collection of cuckold porn stacking up there…

swiftfoxmark2
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@Jeremy I hear what you’re saying. He could just be alpha and disregard her feelings entirely, but that is not the life he committed to. I didn’t mean for him to disregard her feelings. He did that already. I’m saying he needs to disregard his own and stop whining. Sure, he has every right to mourn the past seven years of his life he’s wasted with this prudish whore, but mourning is process that can be done with in a few days. After that, he needs to take action and either make his marriage better or, if she has been… Read more »

trackback

[…] My new book is a textbook. Every page offers specific actionable advice for what to say and do while interacting with a woman you’re trying to seduce. To adequately convey this advice I need to bring my poor reader up to speed on key concepts and mindsets so I’ve been writing little “box out” sections as tangents to the body of the text. During my chapter on “daygame is dirty” I go into detail about the female’s dualist sexual strategy: […]

deti
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“I believe there is a very primal aspect to female sexuality that under the right circumstances can be unleashed.” Yes there is. I’ve long said: Right man, right time, right circumstances, low risk of detection, and many married women will cheat. I’ve heard too many stories from bartenders and bouncers talking about seeing married women slut it up at bars on girls nights out to believe otherwise. I’ve seen too many married women sloshed on rum and Cokes and hanging all over some old flame at a high school reunion to believe otherwise. I’ve heard too many women confess to… Read more »

Jeremy
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@swiftfoxmark2

I suspect, though, that she hasn’t cheated on him at all in those seven years.

This is like saying that because you’ve never seen an alcoholic drink in public for 7 years, that they’ve never had a drop in that span. Most alcoholics are experts at hiding their problem, and remaining functional despite their issue. Can you honestly say you suspect this woman has not cheated on him just because she hasn’t been putting out for him? Isn’t that like saying, “Well shit, this house is dry, there’s no way that alchy has been drinking whisky!”

Shaman
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@Jeremy “women’s biggest beef with porn is the “objectification of women”. But if actually know porn, in most porn ever made, the woman is usually shown head-to-butt in frame, she’s usually front-and-center and the center of the action. In contrast, the man is usually represented only by his genitalia, the rest of him being off-frame. So, who exactly is being objectified?” The book “A Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the Internet Tells Us About Sexual Relationships” has an interesting treatment of this phenomena. The researchers concluded that men’s sexual arousal is primarily visual and women’s is primarily mental — so we… Read more »

D-Man
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Let’s drill down into this… I want to hear some theories on WHY the woman in the story enjoyed being a “filthy whore” so much… “In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it.” -OP “As f-ed up as it sounds, if he had slapped her during that conversation, he might have started the tinglings of the attraction that he never aroused in her before” -Jeremy “If he wants a whore for a wife,… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Jeremy. I thought long and hard about your statement last night, and after much deliberation I think this IS where we come to the philosophical impasse. “Would you ever stick with a man who would not provide for you even after you shared your bed with him regularly? Of course you wouldn’t.” A statement founded in several incorrect assumptions. Yes actually. I would. Because in the modern world, I am not trading sex for food. We both get sex, we both get food, and we both get a whole lot more too, and with neither of us laboring under the… Read more »

redpillsetmefree
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But why, as it appears, do the same women, on some level or at some point in their lives, want to be treated as – and think of themselves as – filthy whores? For some reason, people can’t seem to grasp that just because a woman’s triggers are different than a man’s, that she wouldn’t want nasty, dirty, swarthy, slimy sexual experiences just like men do. At some level, and I’ll have to study it out to find if my theory is true, I suspect it has something to do with the pedestalization of European females in the West. That… Read more »

D-Man
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So, RPSMF, do you see it as a psychological desire for balance? They get sick or bored of being held up on high?

Or do you see it as a corporeal, animal urge that must out, and the more and longer it’s pent up, the dirtier it’s gonna be?

swiftfoxmark2
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@Jeremy The primary reason I suspect that she hasn’t cheated on him is because of her behavior during her marriage toward her husband. To her, her husband was her meal ticket essentially. While I agree that people often do irrational things against their best interests, in her case, I think she didn’t cheat on him during the marriage because she knew it would jeopardize her meal ticket. Women are very good at weighing the benefits of marriage against being single and/or divorced. This is largely why the high divorce rates in the United States can be attributed to women as… Read more »

deti
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D-man:

I agree mostly with RPSMF and Morpheus’ characterizations. Women want dick. They want a masculine man to fuck them silly without apology or excuse.

I see this as a manifestation of what I call the female prime directive, which is in turn a subpart of Rollo’s Feminine Imperative.

The female prime directive is to secure alpha seed from the best, highest quality man (men) possible so as to get pregnant and have as many strong, healthy babies as possible.

redpillsetmefree
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So, RPSMF, do you see it as a psychological desire for balance? They get sick or bored of being held up on high? No, sexual drives don’t originate from a desire for balance…but from a strong sense of need. Release, or impregnation, or attention, or domination, whatever the case may be. I do know that women get tired of being pedestalized, yes, because that’s a denial of their basic humanity. They want to get off sexually just like men do, but fueled by more reasons than physical need. Or do you see it as a corporeal, animal urge that must… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Hey Rollo, that article you wrote about ASD – totally spot on. I was expecting it to be full of typical feminist-blaming bullshit, but I think you at the very least delved into how messy the sexual landscape is for many women, and how not worth it it is for men to get into that sort of mess. I’d almost say that by posting this link as your response, you actually are, perhaps without realizing it, agreeing with the points I made earlier! I’m sure you’ll deny that though, and that’s OK. I get it. Look, just because I don’t… Read more »

Red Hurricane
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If all women are game aware and a logical conclusion of game is that marriage is a no-upside proposition for men then do all women think less of married men? When proposed to do women have the thought in the back of their head: “this guy is not as clever as I thought he was.” And shit, on the other end of it do men who leave their wives get a bump in feminine SMP valuation? The most effective pickup line I’ve ever used in my life was on the day I left my wife. I said “This morning I… Read more »

D-Man
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D-Man
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Thanks, keep em coming… I agree that Western women have been over-pedestalized, and bottling up the more feral aspects of their nature is leading to some dramatic de-pressurizations. But I’m interested in how it plays out INTERNALLY within each woman. I mean, aside from the basic psychological dynamic of putting someone in a room with a red button and a sign that says: DO NOT PRESS THE RED BUTTON. A woman who asks to be treated like a filthy, worthless whore is pressing that red button that’s been sitting in front of her all her life. Here’s a thought: I… Read more »

D-Man
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D-Man
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As an aside…

“The female prime directive is to … have as many strong, healthy babies as possible.”

If this is true, the modern woman is fucking up bigtime. I know of many couples who’ve waited until their late thirties to “start trying”, and are shocked and depressed that it doesn’t seem to be working…

D-Man
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D-Man
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Ahh, RPSMF, I just went to your article, I see we’ve arrived at the same observation:

“She has one force that is her desire to be desired.”

…I’ll keep reading…

livingtree2013
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Morpheus, how exactly do you see that I am “demonizing” anything said here by Rollo? Where? When? What I have REPEATEDLY SAID here is that I agree with most of what is being discussed here. I’m not quite prepared yet to accept the belief that women could eliminate all their own problems if they would just stop sucking, but it certainly wouldn’t be a bad place to start. Hey, why not give it a try? I advocate for it daily in my own life, just so you know. I know you guys don’t like to hear a woman make excuses… Read more »

redpillsetmefree
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If all women are game aware and a logical conclusion of game is that marriage is a no-upside proposition for men then do all women think less of married men? In a word, yes. When proposed to do women have the thought in the back of their head: “this guy is not as clever as I thought he was.” Again: yes. And shit, on the other end of it do men who leave their wives get a bump in feminine SMP valuation? The most effective pickup line I’ve ever used in my life was on the day I left my… Read more »

deti
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deti
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Deti:“The female prime directive is to … have as many strong, healthy babies as possible.” D-man: “If this is true, the modern woman is fucking up bigtime.” No she’s not. The imperative is to secure the seed in the first instance. The single woman slutting around with the most attractive men she can find still wants the hot alpha man to have sex with; but intentionally thwarts the impregnation part of it. There are many reasons for this: Choice addiction; not wanting to commit; wanting to be a strongindependentwoman ™; etc. Yes, the end result is supposed to be pregnancy.… Read more »

bob
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bob
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“I found a video of my wife being fucked by 5 guys.” Life shattering, right? “I ended up feeling really sad.” Really sad? That’s how you describe it? “I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.” That’s damn convenient, the guy was drunk so, please, if it doesn’t make sense, that’s perfectly fine. “My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.” Yeah,… Read more »

sal ceech
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sal ceech
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@Rollo ..is it twisted the increase in cuk porn ..yes in some respects. Is it sad most definitely. Remember you sent us the post about ” Blue Valentine” the movie? The scenario is a bit different however the bottom line is the same ..walk away. @redpill I’m gonna write that down what you posted because the entire manosphere awareness , SS forums , Rollo, s book and blog …it is entierally condensed in those 2 paragraphs. After a man comes to the arrival of red pill awareness let it be SOP for well being ..if your alone let Freedom be… Read more »

redpillsetmefree
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@Rollo

Spot. On.

roe
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roe
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@LivingTree2013 – The forum here has collectively exhausted this topic for insight, I think. I’ll offer some summarizing thoughts: We can come at a topic like this from an “understanding” frame – where we talk about the biomechanics (women’s dual-mating strategy) and the culture milieu (slut-shaming), and this is a good way to understand the problem – but it does suggest the people involved have less agency and are more at the whim of forces beyond their ken or control. We can also take a “responsibility” frame, where we take it as writ people have full agency, regardless of biomechanics… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@LT Yes actually. I would. Because in the modern world, I am not trading sex for food. We both get sex, we both get food, and we both get a whole lot more too, and with neither of us laboring under the burden of being indebted, we both are free. “Food for sex” may be the marriage trade for you, and maybe for the very conservative and fundamentalist folks among you, but this is exactly where we diverge. I just would never think of myself, the product of my uterus, or my husband, or his resources, as a trade-able commodity.… Read more »

roe
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roe
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One more thing, LT:

The expectations of me as a father (two daughters) is not characterized, even culturally, as consisting mostly of “rights”, but of “obligations” – as in, we’re (my wife & I) obligated to feed them, provide a healthy, secure and nurturing environment, &etc. This is as it should be – we chose to bring them into the world, they did not choose me as a father, so the obligations flow from me to them.

My “rights” are active involvement in their lives and security in the knowledge that I’m their biological father.

Dr. Jeremy
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Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo

That song is going on my playlist. Good find…

The guy’s issue seems to be that he cares more about validation from her to meet his emotional neediness, than he cares about her compliance in meeting his tangible relationship requirements. Common “blue pill” brainwashed mistake in prioritizing “feelings” over “doings”. In contrast, the guys who escalated, elicited, and required that behavior of her in the video, without worrying about her validation, got her enthusiastic submission and participation – and her attraction too as a byproduct.

livingtree2013
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Roe, I never once had any baby/wedding fantasies as a young girl. I have my tubes tied. And I was adopted from birth. So its true, I do feel somewhat more philosophical about the maternal “parental-ownership” construct, which I think is largely an emotionally driven compulsion. I’m not in any way suggesting that But nevermind me… I have nothing more to say here, I’m enjoying the dialogue going on now. The thing I’ve always found lacking in these articles is any discussion bout WHY women are so fucked up about sex…and they really are. Its incredibly important to understand it,… Read more »

livingtree2013
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oops, missed finishing a sentence there… I’m not suggesting that there is no parent-child bond. Just that it doesn’t need to be the formative construct of our entire world.

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@Redhurricane… “(for the record my ex-wife may be crazy but in retrospect it was me who lost my alpha edge in the marriage and pushed her into being a bitch towards me)” That was me also. I’ve stated before, I become the Great American Beta Husband – and I’ve come to realize (after reading over the past year) that my (x)wife is probably the “quintessential” woman – almost every article/post I read is her to a T — and only became a problem once I became a BETA husband and a pure supplicant. And as Deti and Morpheus were discussion… Read more »

YOHAMI
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YOHAMI
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LT,

the maternal “parental-ownership” construct, which I think is largely an emotionally driven compulsion.

Its either a construct (void, meaningless, arbitrary) or an emotional driven compulsion (biological, true). Pick one, you dont make sense.

I don’t think there’s a biological need for “alpha seed to make many healthy babies”

So you dont think women are sexually attracted to alpha men.

Random Angeleno
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Random Angeleno
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sacrifices and obligations: man sacrifices his economic surplus. that’s his value. woman sacrifices her body. that’s her value. benefits: man gets exclusive access to her body. woman gets exclusive access to his resources. This is why a man’s affairs piss off the woman: she sees resources that should be hers go to some other woman. Also I have known women who attempted to cut men off from their children of a previous marriage in order to get him to redirect his resources for her children’s exclusive use. This is why paternity fraud is such a big deal. It’s one thing… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Dr. Jeremy

In contrast, the guys who escalated, elicited, and required that behavior of her in the video, without worrying about her validation, got her enthusiastic submission and participation – and her attraction too as a byproduct.

… difficult to argue with this. Harder still when I consider your credentials. Makes me really pause and realize that there is no alternative to creating (and ensuring/demanding) attraction and proof of attraction first and foremost.

livingtree2013
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Ah Jeremy, you just explained why I’ve never wanted to marry.

I have no such thoughts about trade, I am a capitalist through and through.

I just don’t think my body is a tradeable commodity. If I did, I would be inclined to marry, or become a prostitute, which is what marriage by your definition, is, and why I’ll have none of it. And though I can’t recall now which one it was, I believe even your hero Rollo has written articles saying as much.

I know, crazy feminists, right.

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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And now I’ve got one more comment…then I really need to get back to making money… A woman’s mission is CHANGE the man she chooses (call it whatever you want, but it is her choosing – because we bash them over the head and cart them off to our cave anymore – we choose who we approach and then commit to) A Man’s mission is NOT CHANGE for that woman (because if you change, she will no longer want you, and will choose another) That simple rule is not taught with enough emphasis, at least it wasn’t taught to me… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 …If I did, I would be inclined to marry, or become a prostitute, which is what marriage by your definition, is, and why I’ll have none of it. So, now you agree with me about the marriage contract, and use that agreement as an example of why you don’t marry… But I’m still entirely wrong, and all my explanations of biological inclinations for why the marriage deal is the way it is have to do with my extreme conservatism and religiousity? So, all marriage, throughout time, was an evil construct of the patriarchy? Incidentally, if you can’t see the… Read more »

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@Rollo….Quiet woman, men are speaking.

^^^THIS^^^

To the kitchen with you, the Men are going to the parlor to talk.

livingtree2013
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Not what I’m saying at all Yohami. Many women (though not all, definitely not all) are attracted to alpha men, I just doubt that it has much to do with impregnation. Maybe at a subliminal level, but I think its really more about the shame factor. And also, truth be known, they’re funner in bed. Honestly, if women could just be OK with enjoying sex, even outside of the bounds of marriage, egads!… if they weren’t so messed up over being innundated constantly with so many conflicting messages, scandalized or worshipped or glamorized or “proprietized” over their sexuality (ya I… Read more »

Red Hurricane
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Red Hurricane
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Here’s a fun study I’d like to perform. I want to survey highschool boys and correlate their sexual frequency with their parenting situation. From my highschool days I would guess that the boys raised by single fathers get laid the least, and the boys raised by single mothers get laid the most, with two parent boys somewhere in the middle. If (and it’s still if) that holds I would forward and explanation. Every boy’s first role model is his father. Single dad’s are overwhelmingly extreme betas. And single mothers usually end up that way by fucking a big bad alpha… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
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Dr. Jeremy
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@ Jeremy Both my personal and professional experience has led me to the conclusion that most modern people will take the trade you offer them – whether it is “fair” for you or not. So, if a man offers a woman “everything”, simply in exchange for making him feel “special” and nothing more, many women will take that deal (and provide nothing more than required). In some ways, they would be stupid not to take it. Yes, historically, there was some influence from religion and morality that punished people for agreeing to trades that took advantage of others – but… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Of course I see that Jeremy. Its not a one way street where women are exploited and men have perfect liberty. I don’t think that at all. I think I’ve been pretty clear that I think we are both getting a raw deal here. Just that women are really fucked about sex. I genuinely wish that weren’t the case. And I am not interested in marrying because I know that there are too many men in the world who think that by marrying me that I become their possession that they can use any time they like, thereby eliminating my… Read more »

livingtree2013
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“To the kitchen with you, the Men are going to the parlor to talk.”

Fine…

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 And I am not interested in marrying because I know that there are too many men in the world who think that by marrying me that I become their possession that they can use any time they like, thereby eliminating my will from the equation. It really sounds like you’re not ready for commitment in any sense of the word. Where that comes from is outside the scope of the conversation, but that’s what you’re saying. You’re saying, “commitment is prostitution,” and I’m saying, “commitment is mutual sacrifice.” Your way of looking at it involves painting women as victims.… Read more »

earl
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earl
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Moral of the story: We all live in a world of shit.

I honestly don’t know how an athiest who takes the red pill could believe or invest everything in this broken down mixed up world. For as many highs as it provides…there are many lows too.

Faith and hope are the two things keeping me from despair or insanity.

YaReally
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YaReally
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@Matt

“Beautiful — and even average — people do not have to deprave themselves to get sexual satisfaction,”

Lololol oh Matt…every post you make contains at least one little nugget of joy that lets everyone know you’ve never actually had sex or kept a woman.

Sorry guys, average to beautiful women do NOT like depraved fucking. Light romantic candles and call her a goddess, that’s what they really want.

How’s your collection of cuckold porn, Matt? lol

Morpheus
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Morpheus
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Not what I’m saying at all Yohami. Many women (though not all, definitely not all) are attracted to alpha men, I just doubt that it has much to do with impregnation. Maybe at a subliminal level, but I think its really more about the shame factor. LT, based on this statement, either one of two things is true, either you are completely unfamiliar with evolutionary psychology or completely reject it as an explanatory model for human mating behavior. If it is the latter, all of us here will be talking past each other endlessly. I’d say one of the pillars… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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Also this particular story reads as a hoax, but it doesn’t matter. It’s a good teaching opportunity because a lot of men have been through very similar experiences, or have friends who have, or are on their way toward it right now.

Hell my buddies and I alone can vouch for getting way better/kinkier sex from girls than their boyfriends/husbands get from them lol this is a legitimate thing that red pill men should study and keep in mind…ESPECIALLY before marriage/kids (also don’t get married lol)

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Dr. Jeremy

Frankly, I think part of the “blue pill” problem is that many people still have not woken up to this wild-west reality.

Or, in the case of most men, they’re taught by mother, father, family, friends, and everyone they know that reality isn’t reality. This isn’t done maliciously, but it is done, and it’s evil.

livingtree2013
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Not at all Jeremy. The prostitution is just part of the “exchange” theory that so many men ascribe to. If I’m going to be a prostitute, I’m going to do it on my terms. That’s what independent means, in theory. I’d happily commit to someone who didn’t restrict my free will. I want to be in a commitment because I WANT to be, not because I HAVE to be. Just that it doesn’t happen that way very often, but there is a huge difference between them. And I dunno, from what you guys are saying here, I think you want… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Just kidding about that last bit. I never cry over philosophy. smile

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@LT I’d happily commit to someone who didn’t restrict my free will. I want to be in a commitment because I WANT to be, not because I HAVE to be. Just that it doesn’t happen that way very often, but there is a huge difference between them. com·mit·ment (k-mtmnt) n. 1. The act or an instance of committing, especially: a. The act of referring a legislative bill to committee. b. Official consignment, as to a prison or mental health facility. c. A court order authorizing consignment to a prison. 2. a. A pledge to do. b. Something pledged, especially an… Read more »

livingtree2013
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No Morpheus, its that classical “evolutionary psychology” doctrine hasn’t really captured the peculiarities of our modern evolutionary stage – biology is a factor, but a suppressed one. Our psychology is being overridden by external inputs now.

livingtree2013
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And yes, I know only a random smattering of women who don’t enjoy being dominated in the bedroom. But the bedroom is the only place I like being dominated.

Slothrop
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Slothrop
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First of all, the entire story reads too perfectly, it’s probably a troll from a cuckold or MTGOW type. I suppose the counter-argument is that it doesn’t matter, it *could* have happened. But it doesn’t fit the narrative I’m familiar with, a former slut doesn’t clam it up for Mr Beta Hubby unless there’s something else going on there. This could happen if the guy had a severe “Madonna/Whore Complex”, e.g. he actually enjoyed the fact his wife didn’t “degrade” herself by having all the crazy kinky sex he secretly wanted. Which it’s why it’s necessary to get your partner’s… Read more »

Red Hurricane
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Red Hurricane
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@livingtree2013

I think you aren’t operating with a clear definition of commitment. Once you set terms of a commitment you lose the privilege of modifying those terms. Every committed person sacrifices their ability to live on their own terms. If it’s just something you do while you want it and drop when you don’t it’s not a commitment.

earl
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earl
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“Sorry guys, average to beautiful women do NOT like depraved fucking. Light romantic candles and call her a goddess, that’s what they really want.”

She probably wants the hot candle wax poured upon her.

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist
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Back in my younger years, myself, 2 brothers and a friend, gang banged a very slutty girl. She had been with two of the others plus a different friend on more then one occasion previously. I was bartending at the time. About a month after the bang, she came up to the bar, and excitedly told me she was engaged.

Never saw her again.

So yes Matt, this is quite a normal thing. Woman have the ability for basically unlimited orgasms. Men, one maybe two a night. You do the math.

earl
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earl
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Hoax or not…it has provided amazing discussion. You can’t take that away.

Plus the sheer number of men in this situation or knowing a guy in this situation is why it could be a real story or a clever hoax. It is believable.

Deep Dish
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Deep Dish
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Heh, what a funny coincidence. A few months ago, I signed up to an escort verification service and escort review boards. These are the high-end girls you have to have references from other escorts before they will even agree to meet you. It’s a surreal experience to find entire forum threads on some girl that you’re about to meet. Last night, I was doing research on an upcoming encounter and found out the next girl I will be banging did two porn videos a decade ago. I even got my hands on a copy and watched her get plowed, bareback,… Read more »

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist
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livingtree2013
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Interesting point Jeremy, that may be the reason I have tended to steer clear of it then – I always thought it was because I didn’t find a man (or woman) that was worthy of giving up my options for. Maybe they are the same? If I freely pledge to give up my options, is that actually a restriction of my free will? I don’t see it as such. Could be just a perspective thing.

livingtree2013
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Earl… hot candle wax is fun!

earl
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earl
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Birth control alone is the reason why women have the ability to go all gangbang whenever they want. Remove the biggest consequence of sex for a woman (pregnancy)…it can be all holds bar for her. Women should of never had control of their fertility other than what her body naturally does.

Red Hurricane
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Red Hurricane
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@livingtree2013

I think a big difference between how beta men and typical women approach relationships is the the assumption that you can freely revoke your pledge. Most women reserve and exercise that right. Most (beta) men do not. The unfairness of the situation leads to a lot of frustration and resentment.

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist
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Morpheus
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Morpheus
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More science about the sexes differences – http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-hardwired-difference-between-male-and-female-brains-could-explain-why-men-are-better-at-map-reading-8978248.html Ha. Too funny. Aunt Giggles has a new post up today on sex differences but didn’t mention anything about “why men are better at map reading”…..she only focused on the things the female brain is “better” at. One thing I’ve observed about her is she is extremely adept at citing some scientific study, but only cherrypicking out of context the very narrow points that bolster her views and agenda, and if and when you go and read the study, it is almost too funny all the stuff she didn’t mention in a… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Deep Dish, funny I said something like that on another forum just the other day,

“A girl who says “I’m not that kind of girl” is like a guy who says “You can trust me”.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@LT As I said, you don’t seem willing to make a commitment to a man. That’s not a failing any more than being a PUA or MGTOW is evil. However, I can’t be intellectually honest if I only decide to look at the world through the eyes of a MGTOW and declare all marriage as slavery, or through the eyes of a 3rd gen feminist and declare all marriage as prostitution. I have to consider that other people are willing to commit to each other, and there is good in that despite stories like in Rollos post here. Furthermore, I… Read more »

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