Saving the Best

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To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.

I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.

I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.

I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.

Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?

Her: Why are we talking about this?

Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?

Her: are you taking drugs?

Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.

She starts crying.

Me: Do you have anything to say?

She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.

Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.

She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut

Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.

She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.

She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.

Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.

She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.

Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.

She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you

Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.

Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.

I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.

I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.

As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.

I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.

Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”

I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.

I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.

Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.

There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.

As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.

There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.

Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.

The Best of Her

The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.

Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.

Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.

Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.

One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.

I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.

I Want You to Want Me

Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

[…] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change

What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.

He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

796 comments on “Saving the Best

  1. So, RPSMF, do you see it as a psychological desire for balance? They get sick or bored of being held up on high?

    Or do you see it as a corporeal, animal urge that must out, and the more and longer it’s pent up, the dirtier it’s gonna be?

  2. @Jeremy

    The primary reason I suspect that she hasn’t cheated on him is because of her behavior during her marriage toward her husband. To her, her husband was her meal ticket essentially. While I agree that people often do irrational things against their best interests, in her case, I think she didn’t cheat on him during the marriage because she knew it would jeopardize her meal ticket. Women are very good at weighing the benefits of marriage against being single and/or divorced.

    This is largely why the high divorce rates in the United States can be attributed to women as they are ones who are more likely to initiate it. They know that if it is more economical for them to leave their beta provider and re-ride the carousel, they would take that chance in a heartbeat baring any internal moral opposition.

    Women can be very rational and deliberate in their actions when it comes to marriage. The woman in this story would have more likely married an Alpha back in the day when men were expected to marry and reproduce. Instead, she yearned for more than just the orgies and so she sacrificed a bit of her sexual energy in order get her meal ticket.

    Still, I do think a paternity test is in order for his daughter, though it wouldn’t do much good in family courts. They have a tendency to ignore reality.

    Women like this are the reason I support polygyny, despite my faith. At least with multiple wives, a situation like this is a minor annoyance and not a total marriage meltdown.

  3. D-man:

    I agree mostly with RPSMF and Morpheus’ characterizations. Women want dick. They want a masculine man to fuck them silly without apology or excuse.

    I see this as a manifestation of what I call the female prime directive, which is in turn a subpart of Rollo’s Feminine Imperative.

    The female prime directive is to secure alpha seed from the best, highest quality man (men) possible so as to get pregnant and have as many strong, healthy babies as possible.

  4. So, RPSMF, do you see it as a psychological desire for balance? They get sick or bored of being held up on high?

    No, sexual drives don’t originate from a desire for balance…but from a strong sense of need. Release, or impregnation, or attention, or domination, whatever the case may be. I do know that women get tired of being pedestalized, yes, because that’s a denial of their basic humanity.
    They want to get off sexually just like men do, but fueled by more reasons than physical need.

    Or do you see it as a corporeal, animal urge that must out, and the more and longer it’s pent up, the dirtier it’s gonna be?

    Moreso this, but it’s still not the same as a man’s, because a woman can go her whole life with dreaming about releasing her inner slut, but never actually doing it. That’s not nearly as true for men.
    However forty years of feminism and twenty years of YouGoGrrrl culture have finally created the climate that women needed to live out their fantasies, and with the rise of ubiquitous camera technology and social networks, they can no longer deny that most of them want to be porn stars on some level. I go into more detail about the forces that rage inside of women here: http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/quell-her-inner-war/

  5. If all women are game aware and a logical conclusion of game is that marriage is a no-upside proposition for men then do all women think less of married men? When proposed to do women have the thought in the back of their head: “this guy is not as clever as I thought he was.”

    And shit, on the other end of it do men who leave their wives get a bump in feminine SMP valuation? The most effective pickup line I’ve ever used in my life was on the day I left my wife. I said “This morning I left my crazy bitch of a wife and hired a divorce attorney”, and was promptly sucked off in the front seat of my car outside the bar.

    (for the record my ex-wife may be crazy but in retrospect it was me who lost my alpha edge in the marriage and pushed her into being a bitch towards me)

  6. Thanks, keep em coming…

    I agree that Western women have been over-pedestalized, and bottling up the more feral aspects of their nature is leading to some dramatic de-pressurizations.

    But I’m interested in how it plays out INTERNALLY within each woman. I mean, aside from the basic psychological dynamic of putting someone in a room with a red button and a sign that says: DO NOT PRESS THE RED BUTTON. A woman who asks to be treated like a filthy, worthless whore is pressing that red button that’s been sitting in front of her all her life.

    Here’s a thought:

    I think that during their childbearing years, women’s most powerful desire is TO BE DESIRED. To be the object of desire itself. To embody the essence of value.

    This explains rape fantasies. The thought that a guy she wants finds her so desirable that he can’t control himself is preferable to the thought that he doesn’t care, and far preferable to him being disgusted by her. It also explains why she hates a beta who’s more interested in his work, and hates him even more when he “wants her to want him”. That’s him acting like a woman.

    It’s about value. If five guys line up to bang a girl (and a thousand watch it on the net), she may, by twisted logic, feel desired. If she is being de-valued, that means she has value. She’s at the center of the action.

    If nobody notices her or cares, she’s invisible, worthless.

    When children need attention to validate their very existence, they will do destructive things to get what they need.

  7. As an aside…

    “The female prime directive is to … have as many strong, healthy babies as possible.”

    If this is true, the modern woman is fucking up bigtime. I know of many couples who’ve waited until their late thirties to “start trying”, and are shocked and depressed that it doesn’t seem to be working…

  8. Ahh, RPSMF, I just went to your article, I see we’ve arrived at the same observation:

    “She has one force that is her desire to be desired.”

    …I’ll keep reading…

  9. If all women are game aware and a logical conclusion of game is that marriage is a no-upside proposition for men then do all women think less of married men?

    In a word, yes.

    When proposed to do women have the thought in the back of their head: “this guy is not as clever as I thought he was.”

    Again: yes.

    And shit, on the other end of it do men who leave their wives get a bump in feminine SMP valuation? The most effective pickup line I’ve ever used in my life was on the day I left my wife. I said “This morning I left my crazy bitch of a wife and hired a divorce attorney”, and was promptly sucked off in the front seat of my car outside the bar.

    What males have to do is Red Pill it and accept the truth; women were made to be submissive. They long to be conquered and dominated their entire lives, and they have the built-in trait of sh*t testing to find out which man is worthy of her favors.
    It’s counter intuitive for men, that’s why so many men struggle with it. But her psychology runs like this:

    “If you ignore me, don’t need me, are self-sufficient, and slap me around, verbally, physically, and emotionally, it means you are strong enough to deserve to have your seed continue, and thus can have all the sex you want.
    If you chase me, long for me, give in to my every whim, build your life around pleasing me, and worship me, I will take every possible advantage of you that I can, and drain your resources, but I will never stop looking or longing for a man that can dominate me. Without remorse or apology.”

    If men would just accept this, and accept that they have to step up to it to get laid, their lives would be easier.
    And, again….a man has to give up his fantasy of being able to rest with a woman. The only woman you can rest with is your mother, and even she will lose respect for you if you need her too long, even though she’ll still help you while she’s calling you a wimp.

    1. @Rollo ..is it twisted the increase in cuk porn ..yes in some respects. Is it sad most definitely. Remember you sent us the post about ” Blue Valentine” the movie? The scenario is a bit different however the bottom line is the same ..walk away.

      @redpill

      I’m gonna write that down what you posted because the entire manosphere awareness , SS forums , Rollo, s book and blog …it is entierally condensed in those 2 paragraphs. After a man comes to the arrival of red pill awareness let it be SOP for well being ..if your alone let Freedom be your Mistress

  10. Deti:“The female prime directive is to … have as many strong, healthy babies as possible.”
    D-man: “If this is true, the modern woman is fucking up bigtime.”

    No she’s not. The imperative is to secure the seed in the first instance. The single woman slutting around with the most attractive men she can find still wants the hot alpha man to have sex with; but intentionally thwarts the impregnation part of it. There are many reasons for this: Choice addiction; not wanting to commit; wanting to be a strongindependentwoman ™; etc. Yes, the end result is supposed to be pregnancy. But the way it manifests today is most women having the sex while forgoing the pregnancy part until she can’t deny the urge any longer.

  11. “I found a video of my wife being fucked by 5 guys.”

    Life shattering, right?

    “I ended up feeling really sad.”

    Really sad? That’s how you describe it?

    “I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.”

    That’s damn convenient, the guy was drunk so, please, if it doesn’t make sense, that’s perfectly fine.

    “My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.”

    Yeah, my father has a tumor in his lung, so I’m a bit “stressed out” right now, you know.

    What a load of bullshit.

  12. @LivingTree2013 – The forum here has collectively exhausted this topic for insight, I think. I’ll offer some summarizing thoughts:

    We can come at a topic like this from an “understanding” frame – where we talk about the biomechanics (women’s dual-mating strategy) and the culture milieu (slut-shaming), and this is a good way to understand the problem – but it does suggest the people involved have less agency and are more at the whim of forces beyond their ken or control.

    We can also take a “responsibility” frame, where we take it as writ people have full agency, regardless of biomechanics or culture, and where we assign blame. The case here is pretty clear – *she* lied to her husband, and carelessly kept a videotape which she *knew* would emotionally devastate him should he find it. He entered into a relationship with someone with whom he wasn’t sexually compatible.

    Moving on:

    You said: “Paternity (and maternity too, if you really want to know what I think) is a purely artificial construct created for the legal purpose of property transfer.
    It really saddens me that there are still so many people who see themselves, and their prospective spouses and children, as possessions that you have rights of entitlement over.”

    Frankly, unless you can tell me you have children, which you leaned weren’t yours because of a hospital mix-up, and still felt that maternity was an “artificial construct”, I don’t believe you. I mean no offence by this, but I *strongly* disagree that the bond between parent & child is reducible to a cultural construct.

    If you found out the base-rate of hospitals mixing up babies was 2% (about the base rate of cuckoldry – conservatively), you’d find yourself getting *real* selective about hospitals.

    1. Roe, I never once had any baby/wedding fantasies as a young girl. I have my tubes tied. And I was adopted from birth. So its true, I do feel somewhat more philosophical about the maternal “parental-ownership” construct, which I think is largely an emotionally driven compulsion. I’m not in any way suggesting that

      But nevermind me… I have nothing more to say here, I’m enjoying the dialogue going on now. The thing I’ve always found lacking in these articles is any discussion bout WHY women are so fucked up about sex…and they really are. Its incredibly important to understand it, for the good of the species, and I’m glad that you are getting into it.

      I don’t think there’s a biological need for “alpha seed to make many healthy babies” or whatever, but everything else, you got it, 100%. Women are really bored with being on the pedestal, and so very many other things play into that fact.

      OK, I’m being quiet now…

      1. LT,

        the maternal “parental-ownership” construct, which I think is largely an emotionally driven compulsion.

        Its either a construct (void, meaningless, arbitrary) or an emotional driven compulsion (biological, true). Pick one, you dont make sense.

        I don’t think there’s a biological need for “alpha seed to make many healthy babies”

        So you dont think women are sexually attracted to alpha men.

        1. Not what I’m saying at all Yohami. Many women (though not all, definitely not all) are attracted to alpha men, I just doubt that it has much to do with impregnation. Maybe at a subliminal level, but I think its really more about the shame factor.

          And also, truth be known, they’re funner in bed.

          Honestly, if women could just be OK with enjoying sex, even outside of the bounds of marriage, egads!… if they weren’t so messed up over being innundated constantly with so many conflicting messages, scandalized or worshipped or glamorized or “proprietized” over their sexuality (ya I made that word up) you’d probably find your relationships would be so much healthier and more respectful.

          And by “artificial construct” I mean in the legal sense, as all laws are artificial constructs – though not always arbitrary. Again, not saying that as an artificial construct, that it is meaningless. Just that having right of possession (or obligation) is not a natural right, it is a man-made construct. In the case of maternity/paternity, we’ve taken a purely emotional response, and made it into some kind of legal construct, intended to be upheld by the property rights theory.

          1. Not what I’m saying at all Yohami. Many women (though not all, definitely not all) are attracted to alpha men, I just doubt that it has much to do with impregnation. Maybe at a subliminal level, but I think its really more about the shame factor.

            LT, based on this statement, either one of two things is true, either you are completely unfamiliar with evolutionary psychology or completely reject it as an explanatory model for human mating behavior. If it is the latter, all of us here will be talking past each other endlessly. I’d say one of the pillars of foundation of “Red Pill” thinking and basically a good chunk of what Rollo explains here is driven by the proposition that human mating behavior is highly influenced by hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, not primarily a few decades or even centuries of cultural constructs. Arguably, the cultural constructs were created to limit the impulses driven by hardwired evolutionary programming. I can tell you we will find basically no common ground if the core of your position is that cultural influences are the primary driver of human sexual behavior. They are an ancillary driver at most, and to the extent appear to be a driver are only giving license to evolutionary drivers that were already there being restrained.

            And also, truth be known, they’re funner in bed.

            Right. Because they satisfy the need for women to feel dominated and led in bed.

          2. No Morpheus, its that classical “evolutionary psychology” doctrine hasn’t really captured the peculiarities of our modern evolutionary stage – biology is a factor, but a suppressed one. Our psychology is being overridden by external inputs now.

          3. And yes, I know only a random smattering of women who don’t enjoy being dominated in the bedroom. But the bedroom is the only place I like being dominated.

          4. And also, truth be known, they’re funner in bed.

            Right. Because they satisfy the need for women to feel dominated and led in bed.

            As I’m fond of saying,..

            the second reason I don’t censor, ban users or delete comments is that I believe it’s useful to have critics (usually women or fem-men) provide the gallery with examples of exactly the mentality or dynamic I’m describing in an essay. With a fair amount of predictability, a blue pill male or an upset woman will just as often prove my point for me and serve as a model for what I’ve described.

            http://therationalmale.com/2013/11/25/nursing-power/

            Give her enough rope,..

    2. oops, missed finishing a sentence there… I’m not suggesting that there is no parent-child bond. Just that it doesn’t need to be the formative construct of our entire world.

  13. @LT

    Yes actually. I would. Because in the modern world, I am not trading sex for food. We both get sex, we both get food, and we both get a whole lot more too, and with neither of us laboring under the burden of being indebted, we both are free.

    “Food for sex” may be the marriage trade for you, and maybe for the very conservative and fundamentalist folks among you, but this is exactly where we diverge. I just would never think of myself, the product of my uterus, or my husband, or his resources, as a trade-able commodity. That’s just how I roll.

    It’s good to know we at least agree where we disagree. Your problem here is, surprisingly because you declared yourself to be an economics major, that you associate trade-able commodity’s as somehow “evil”. You continue to associate a legitimate transaction between haves and have-nots as if it’s dirty. By what form of measurement is a transaction where a man and woman trade excess human reproductive capability for excess economics production not a win-win for both parties? By what perverted perspective is offering your uterus and vagina to a man in exchange for his physical sacrifice not an act worthy of praise?

    I’ll answer that for you… from a Feminist’s perspective.

    Feminists have declared the female body to be “hands off”, and the property of women alone. This is entirely in conflict with what a sexually dimorphic species needs, where the complementary biological capabilities of each sex is REQUIRED for survival of the species. From this perspective, yes, women are absolutely sacrificing some control over their body when they marry. See that, I just made a non-religious, scientifically valid argument for self-sacrifice from both sexes in order to propogate the species. Keep that in mind as I continue. The thing feminists don’t want to acknowledge is, men are doing just as much sacrificing of their own bodies to keep a family going.

    Its no coincidence that the majority of those opposed to women’s reproductive freedom are conservative, christian, anti-marxist, and the most ardent opponents of any sort of communal responsibility…

    So much wrong… but you don’t really follow that up with proof of your assertion…

    These beliefs are all directly tied together, around the construct of property rights, and all of them stem from the right of paternity and patrilineage.

    Ah yes, the mythical patriarchy comes into play. It must be all those evil secretive male organizations that keep supporting property rights to keep these evil concepts going, right? It can’t be NATURE as I described before, but you failed to even consider. Of course it has to be all the absurd religion and conservative nonsense that keeps women needing to sacrifice something for their husbands, right? It can’t be biology, can it? Well can it?

    A woman’s prized virginity is really about men’s need for paternity, and paternity is a property right. As you said yourself, it is the “greatest gift you can give a man,” which is a male-established, moral assumption, founded not in natural law but in the need to have the right of parent-ownership. Paternity (and maternity too, if you really want to know what I think) is a purely artificial construct created for the legal purpose of property transfer.

    LOL. Maternity is an artificial construct? Holy cow I’ve heard some absurd things in my day…

    It really saddens me that there are still so many people who see themselves, and their prospective spouses and children, as possessions that you have rights of entitlement over.

    Contracts are like that, and marriage is a contract. Sorry but it’s just a fact. If I commit myself to a woman, I am committing myself to whatever comes her way, to stand by her. That is sacrifice on my part, and as a committed husband, I owe her that. Did you somehow think that there is no reciprocal sacrifice from the female side?

    We discussed this in our last talk, unsuccessfully, because you cast many unfounded assumptions upon me about what you think I believe. So defending the rest of this is pointless effort wasted, unless we reconcile this one point.

    Pointing out logical fallacies is not “cast(ing) many unfounded assumptions”. How far are you in that college degree anyway?

    1. Ah Jeremy, you just explained why I’ve never wanted to marry.

      I have no such thoughts about trade, I am a capitalist through and through.

      I just don’t think my body is a tradeable commodity. If I did, I would be inclined to marry, or become a prostitute, which is what marriage by your definition, is, and why I’ll have none of it. And though I can’t recall now which one it was, I believe even your hero Rollo has written articles saying as much.

      I know, crazy feminists, right.

  14. One more thing, LT:

    The expectations of me as a father (two daughters) is not characterized, even culturally, as consisting mostly of “rights”, but of “obligations” – as in, we’re (my wife & I) obligated to feed them, provide a healthy, secure and nurturing environment, &etc. This is as it should be – we chose to bring them into the world, they did not choose me as a father, so the obligations flow from me to them.

    My “rights” are active involvement in their lives and security in the knowledge that I’m their biological father.

  15. @ Rollo

    That song is going on my playlist. Good find…

    The guy’s issue seems to be that he cares more about validation from her to meet his emotional neediness, than he cares about her compliance in meeting his tangible relationship requirements. Common “blue pill” brainwashed mistake in prioritizing “feelings” over “doings”. In contrast, the guys who escalated, elicited, and required that behavior of her in the video, without worrying about her validation, got her enthusiastic submission and participation – and her attraction too as a byproduct.

  16. @Redhurricane…
    “(for the record my ex-wife may be crazy but in retrospect it was me who lost my alpha edge in the marriage and pushed her into being a bitch towards me)”

    That was me also. I’ve stated before, I become the Great American Beta Husband – and I’ve come to realize (after reading over the past year) that my (x)wife is probably the “quintessential” woman – almost every article/post I read is her to a T — and only became a problem once I became a BETA husband and a pure supplicant.

    And as Deti and Morpheus were discussion – we (for the most part us older guys) have found this information AFTER our worlds fall apart.

    And Matt – great to see you back! But regardless of this story being “real” or not, the situation is real. All you have to do is read through the forums at NMMNG or MMSL to see story after story after story – and this one is pretty tame in comparison to some of the stuff that has happened to other men. This guy’s story is sad, and he’s going to have hard time dealing with it – but what he saw was something from the past – there are guys telling their story about walking in on their wives doing things like this.

    And Rollo is held to journalistic standards of excellence – especially sense even journalists are not held to those standards anymore. It’s easy to tweet “sorry” on a false story that creates tsumanic waves in the interwebs. So what standard of proof should Rollo hold up, in your opinion?

  17. sacrifices and obligations:
    man sacrifices his economic surplus. that’s his value.
    woman sacrifices her body. that’s her value.

    benefits:
    man gets exclusive access to her body.
    woman gets exclusive access to his resources.

    This is why a man’s affairs piss off the woman: she sees resources that should be hers go to some other woman. Also I have known women who attempted to cut men off from their children of a previous marriage in order to get him to redirect his resources for her children’s exclusive use.

    This is why paternity fraud is such a big deal. It’s one thing if a man voluntarily takes on a woman’s children from past relationships (though I don’t recommend that), it’s another thing entirely when she gets pregnant by someone outside of wedlock and gets him to support that child without his knowing the true paternity.

    This is also why a woman who refuses sex too often has broken the marital contract as much as a woman who steps out on her husband. Either way, the man does not have exclusive access to her body.

    Just as much as a man who refuses to get off the couch and find work to support his family has broken the marital contract. But there’s no demonizing women who don’t believe the “or poorer” part of their vows.

  18. @Dr. Jeremy

    In contrast, the guys who escalated, elicited, and required that behavior of her in the video, without worrying about her validation, got her enthusiastic submission and participation – and her attraction too as a byproduct.

    … difficult to argue with this. Harder still when I consider your credentials. Makes me really pause and realize that there is no alternative to creating (and ensuring/demanding) attraction and proof of attraction first and foremost.

  19. And now I’ve got one more comment…then I really need to get back to making money…

    A woman’s mission is CHANGE the man she chooses (call it whatever you want, but it is her choosing – because we bash them over the head and cart them off to our cave anymore – we choose who we approach and then commit to)

    A Man’s mission is NOT CHANGE for that woman (because if you change, she will no longer want you, and will choose another)

    That simple rule is not taught with enough emphasis, at least it wasn’t taught to me with enough emphasis. My mom didn’t change my dad – she tried, but it never happened. That’s why they remained married until he died. It was right in front of me, but I didn’t recognize them.

  20. @livingtree2013

    …If I did, I would be inclined to marry, or become a prostitute, which is what marriage by your definition, is, and why I’ll have none of it.

    So, now you agree with me about the marriage contract, and use that agreement as an example of why you don’t marry… But I’m still entirely wrong, and all my explanations of biological inclinations for why the marriage deal is the way it is have to do with my extreme conservatism and religiousity? So, all marriage, throughout time, was an evil construct of the patriarchy?

    Incidentally, if you can’t see the way men also prostitute themselves in the corporate world to support their families, you are blind.

    1. Of course I see that Jeremy. Its not a one way street where women are exploited and men have perfect liberty. I don’t think that at all. I think I’ve been pretty clear that I think we are both getting a raw deal here. Just that women are really fucked about sex. I genuinely wish that weren’t the case.

      And I am not interested in marrying because I know that there are too many men in the world who think that by marrying me that I become their possession that they can use any time they like, thereby eliminating my will from the equation.

      I’m not saying I agree with it, or with you for thinking this way (if in fact you do…). I fully don’t, therefore I don’t marry. If I did agree with it, I would marry, and be happy to be a prostitute for my husband. As it stands, I have free will, and I also have an amazing man who I respect dearly, and who I more than willingly consent to, and we both enjoy the relationship immensely, I don’t want a thing to change.

      Make sense?

  21. Here’s a fun study I’d like to perform.

    I want to survey highschool boys and correlate their sexual frequency with their parenting situation. From my highschool days I would guess that the boys raised by single fathers get laid the least, and the boys raised by single mothers get laid the most, with two parent boys somewhere in the middle.

    If (and it’s still if) that holds I would forward and explanation. Every boy’s first role model is his father. Single dad’s are overwhelmingly extreme betas. And single mothers usually end up that way by fucking a big bad alpha with better things (and women) to do than stick around to raise a kid. Two parent households have more variation but probably the average man in that situation fall somewhere in the middle.

    Way before we’re old enough to analytically approach game we do just what our fathers did to make us.

    I think every man should take a hard look at his sexual history and ask if he’s been improving himself and doing better, or if he’s just kept pressing the same button with the same result.

  22. @ Jeremy

    Both my personal and professional experience has led me to the conclusion that most modern people will take the trade you offer them – whether it is “fair” for you or not. So, if a man offers a woman “everything”, simply in exchange for making him feel “special” and nothing more, many women will take that deal (and provide nothing more than required). In some ways, they would be stupid not to take it.

    Yes, historically, there was some influence from religion and morality that punished people for agreeing to trades that took advantage of others – but we have largely destroyed those social structures. So, if someone is ignorant enough (or brainwashed) to offer someone else “something for nothing”, most will take it readily without a second thought. It is up to each individual to assess their own worth and demand a fair trade – easier said than done with today’s social misinformation though.

    Frankly, I think part of the “blue pill” problem is that many people still have not woken up to this wild-west reality. Some men (and women) are still trying to be moral and humble – figuring others are still playing by those old moral and religious rules that externally “policed” fairness in relationships. But many others are not controlled by those standards anymore. So, now everyone must take that extra step and ensure fair trade themselves.

  23. @livingtree2013

    And I am not interested in marrying because I know that there are too many men in the world who think that by marrying me that I become their possession that they can use any time they like, thereby eliminating my will from the equation.

    It really sounds like you’re not ready for commitment in any sense of the word. Where that comes from is outside the scope of the conversation, but that’s what you’re saying. You’re saying, “commitment is prostitution,” and I’m saying, “commitment is mutual sacrifice.”

    Your way of looking at it involves painting women as victims. My way of looking at it requires self-sacrifice from both sexes. Which is the more sane viewpoint?

    1. Not at all Jeremy. The prostitution is just part of the “exchange” theory that so many men ascribe to. If I’m going to be a prostitute, I’m going to do it on my terms. That’s what independent means, in theory. I’d happily commit to someone who didn’t restrict my free will. I want to be in a commitment because I WANT to be, not because I HAVE to be. Just that it doesn’t happen that way very often, but there is a huge difference between them.

      And I dunno, from what you guys are saying here, I think you want us to want to be willing too. Not “forced” to do it with you because of social convention? Don’t you? Please tell me you do, or I might cry.

  24. Moral of the story: We all live in a world of shit.

    I honestly don’t know how an athiest who takes the red pill could believe or invest everything in this broken down mixed up world. For as many highs as it provides…there are many lows too.

    Faith and hope are the two things keeping me from despair or insanity.

  25. @Matt

    “Beautiful — and even average — people do not have to deprave themselves to get sexual satisfaction,”

    Lololol oh Matt…every post you make contains at least one little nugget of joy that lets everyone know you’ve never actually had sex or kept a woman.

    Sorry guys, average to beautiful women do NOT like depraved fucking. Light romantic candles and call her a goddess, that’s what they really want.

    How’s your collection of cuckold porn, Matt? lol

  26. Also this particular story reads as a hoax, but it doesn’t matter. It’s a good teaching opportunity because a lot of men have been through very similar experiences, or have friends who have, or are on their way toward it right now.

    Hell my buddies and I alone can vouch for getting way better/kinkier sex from girls than their boyfriends/husbands get from them lol this is a legitimate thing that red pill men should study and keep in mind…ESPECIALLY before marriage/kids (also don’t get married lol)

  27. @Dr. Jeremy

    Frankly, I think part of the “blue pill” problem is that many people still have not woken up to this wild-west reality.

    Or, in the case of most men, they’re taught by mother, father, family, friends, and everyone they know that reality isn’t reality. This isn’t done maliciously, but it is done, and it’s evil.

  28. @LT

    I’d happily commit to someone who didn’t restrict my free will. I want to be in a commitment because I WANT to be, not because I HAVE to be. Just that it doesn’t happen that way very often, but there is a huge difference between them.

    com·mit·ment (k-mtmnt) n.
    1. The act or an instance of committing, especially:
    a. The act of referring a legislative bill to committee.
    b. Official consignment, as to a prison or mental health facility.
    c. A court order authorizing consignment to a prison.
    2.
    a. A pledge to do.
    b. Something pledged, especially an engagement by contract involving financial obligation.
    3. The state of being bound emotionally or intellectually to a course of action or to another person or persons: a deep commitment to liberal policies; a profound commitment to the family.

    Please review LT. Commitment is not what you seem to think it is. When you make a commitment, you are willfully submitting yourself to another person, or a cause. You can’t imply that commitment includes free-will, because it’s precisely the opposite. When you commit, you are graciously sacrificing some of your free will for that which you value.

    1. Interesting point Jeremy, that may be the reason I have tended to steer clear of it then – I always thought it was because I didn’t find a man (or woman) that was worthy of giving up my options for. Maybe they are the same? If I freely pledge to give up my options, is that actually a restriction of my free will? I don’t see it as such. Could be just a perspective thing.

  29. First of all, the entire story reads too perfectly, it’s probably a troll from a cuckold or MTGOW type.

    I suppose the counter-argument is that it doesn’t matter, it *could* have happened. But it doesn’t fit the narrative I’m familiar with, a former slut doesn’t clam it up for Mr Beta Hubby unless there’s something else going on there. This could happen if the guy had a severe “Madonna/Whore Complex”, e.g. he actually enjoyed the fact his wife didn’t “degrade” herself by having all the crazy kinky sex he secretly wanted.

    Which it’s why it’s necessary to get your partner’s sex life out on the table in some nonjudgmental context. (YaReally is right on his first comment.) Most likely it will not include anything even close to a porn-style gangbangs, but the only way to find out is to have the right mentality rather than assuming the best.

  30. @livingtree2013

    I think you aren’t operating with a clear definition of commitment. Once you set terms of a commitment you lose the privilege of modifying those terms. Every committed person sacrifices their ability to live on their own terms. If it’s just something you do while you want it and drop when you don’t it’s not a commitment.

  31. “Sorry guys, average to beautiful women do NOT like depraved fucking. Light romantic candles and call her a goddess, that’s what they really want.”

    She probably wants the hot candle wax poured upon her.

  32. Back in my younger years, myself, 2 brothers and a friend, gang banged a very slutty girl. She had been with two of the others plus a different friend on more then one occasion previously. I was bartending at the time. About a month after the bang, she came up to the bar, and excitedly told me she was engaged.

    Never saw her again.

    So yes Matt, this is quite a normal thing. Woman have the ability for basically unlimited orgasms. Men, one maybe two a night. You do the math.

  33. Hoax or not…it has provided amazing discussion. You can’t take that away.

    Plus the sheer number of men in this situation or knowing a guy in this situation is why it could be a real story or a clever hoax. It is believable.

  34. Heh, what a funny coincidence.

    A few months ago, I signed up to an escort verification service and escort review boards. These are the high-end girls you have to have references from other escorts before they will even agree to meet you. It’s a surreal experience to find entire forum threads on some girl that you’re about to meet.

    Last night, I was doing research on an upcoming encounter and found out the next girl I will be banging did two porn videos a decade ago. I even got my hands on a copy and watched her get plowed, bareback, by three big dudes at once. I wasn’t too surprised, but it was remarkable watching the reactions of some of the guys, who felt they were “lied to” and “ripped off”, since she has a “good girl” persona. And when the girl entered the thread to explain and rationalize her raunchy sordid past “mistake”, there were a few White Knights who said, “Wow, that’s such an intelligent response, I’d love to sit down and hold a conversation with you.”

    Roissy Maxim #7: The sweeter and more innocent a girl seems, the greater the likelihood she has been in a gangbang.

    1. Deep Dish, funny I said something like that on another forum just the other day,

      “A girl who says “I’m not that kind of girl” is like a guy who says “You can trust me”.

    1. More science about the sexes differences –
      http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-hardwired-difference-between-male-and-female-brains-could-explain-why-men-are-better-at-map-reading-8978248.html

      Ha. Too funny. Aunt Giggles has a new post up today on sex differences but didn’t mention anything about “why men are better at map reading”…..she only focused on the things the female brain is “better” at. One thing I’ve observed about her is she is extremely adept at citing some scientific study, but only cherrypicking out of context the very narrow points that bolster her views and agenda, and if and when you go and read the study, it is almost too funny all the stuff she didn’t mention in a post on that study.

  35. Birth control alone is the reason why women have the ability to go all gangbang whenever they want. Remove the biggest consequence of sex for a woman (pregnancy)…it can be all holds bar for her. Women should of never had control of their fertility other than what her body naturally does.

  36. @livingtree2013

    I think a big difference between how beta men and typical women approach relationships is the the assumption that you can freely revoke your pledge. Most women reserve and exercise that right. Most (beta) men do not. The unfairness of the situation leads to a lot of frustration and resentment.

  37. @LT

    As I said, you don’t seem willing to make a commitment to a man. That’s not a failing any more than being a PUA or MGTOW is evil. However, I can’t be intellectually honest if I only decide to look at the world through the eyes of a MGTOW and declare all marriage as slavery, or through the eyes of a 3rd gen feminist and declare all marriage as prostitution. I have to consider that other people are willing to commit to each other, and there is good in that despite stories like in Rollos post here. Furthermore, I can’t honestly declare that because I feel that marriage is slavery, that women like the one in the story should be thrown in prison for their abuse (I am heavily playing devils advocate here). The woman committed fraud, of that I have no doubt. However, there was a commitment made, so he signed up for hell, he just didn’t know he was signing up for hell. Tragically, she was a liar, even to herself, about who she was attracted to.

  38. I’m curious, LT. I don’t think you’ve ever even touched the real point of this post by Rollo. Since we seem to be at a point of agreement with each other… What are your thoughts on the possibility of negotiated desire? What are your thoughts on saving your best commitment-assets for those you commit to?

    1. Hmm. Well that’s complicated to answer Jeremy. I’ve definitely saved the best for the man I’ve “committed” to (I use the term loosely because we aren’t in agreement on it yet), but that’s not to say that I wasn’t adventurous with men prior to him. I just didn’t feel like I WANTED to be fully liberated with any of my priors, because… they didn’t really deserve it.

      I used to think that it was because I was an inhibited person, but after much self-awareness, I now understand that it had everything to do with trust. I can honestly state now, with certainty, that my reluctance was a fully instinctive, biological response to not feeling like I could trust the men I was with. And I only know that now because I know what its like to be really uninhibited with someone I care about, respect, and trust.

      By the way, trust means so much more than just cheating.

      I think if you get right down to it, at the core of every woman’s psyche, you’ll find the same issue. I’d say its probably easier for a woman to be a slut with a total random than with her spouse, because we are actually much less vulnerable with a random. Vulnerability is genuinely terrifying (and simultaneously exhilarating) to women. You may believe we are comfortable with it, but that would be completely false.

      Anyway – negotiated desire – that is what I felt like I was doing before. It is not genuine and everyone knows it so I can’t see how anyone could find it enjoyable. Negotiated desire is gross. I don’t think I’ll ever do it again, if I can avoid it at all. I can’t ever see a situation arising in my life where I would HAVE to negotiate on that.

  39. ” And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.”

    Please elaborate more on this in explicit detail.

  40. Great post. The comment count alone up to this point reveals how much this issue hits a male nerve.

    But in regards to some commenters here recommending this guy game his wife to help turn things around… I don’t expect it works quite like that–at least not in this extreme a case.

    To be clear, I’m a big fan of married game. At the very least, game is about self-improvement regardless of outcome. Moreover, and in an otherwise healthy relationship, it can revive sexual attraction. But in this story here, I suspect there’s a whole lot more going on. There are psychologically “structural” issues, unresolved conflicts in this wife’s head, etc. which are going to prevent her from truly bonding and giving herself to her husband regardless of how much game the guy now spits.

    Yea, I recognize the wife’s (and nearly all women’s) hypergamic urges. Do women downplay their sexual pasts? Hide their partner count? Engage in behavior their husbands aren’t comfortable admitting? Absolutely. But it’s not a lack of married game that makes a women engage in a six-person orgy, go bisexual in that orgy, get double-teamed up the ass, yell “I’m a filthy whore,” videotape the whole event for posterity, and then hang onto the darn videotape 7 years into a committed(?) relationship. …And then, once married, deny anything but missionary with her husband, hide any sense of adventure, in her sexuality? That’s some pretty extreme and oscillating sexual behavior. It isn’t all that common. (Come on. At age 50+, I might be an old guy, but in the general population i.e., outside of internet apocrypha, not a whole of women are seriously into engaging in threesomes). And then, such extreme 180-degree sexual repression after-the-fact isn’t psychologically healthy either. I don’t think game will win-out on this one. It won’t magically turn this wife into now giving this guy the best of herself. The causes that drove her extremes in the first place need to get resolved.

  41. @sunshinemary said: Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?

    You’ve completely missed the point.

    A man in her past got her BEST.

    Her husband got her GOOD ENOUGH.

    The problem isn’t that she has been with other men. Her actions have made it clear that (in her eyes) her husband is INFERIOR to those other men.

    Ego wise, this is a castrating event for the husband. He realizes now that for the past 7 years, she didn’t think he was good enough for her best; that he didn’t deserve her best.

    This is far worse than finding out your wife had an ultra high N count–far, far, far worse.

  42. To add on to 8to12’s excellent comment…

    From the opposite perspective, ladies, try to imagine this. Try to imagine you married a seemingly not-so-rich man, committed everything to him, gave him sex whenever he wanted, gave him meals whenever he needed food, etc…etc, all because you loved him and he convinced you that he loved you and wanted to give you all he had.

    You dealt with his lack of high income because you believed in him and believed he could start earning significant amounts of money if he kept working hard. Now imagine that 7 years into the marriage, you find his bank statements and discover he has been diverting significant portions of his much-higher-than-you-thought income to his own projects, or gambling it away, or even giving it to another woman. From your perspective, wouldn’t that feel like fraud? Wouldn’t it feel like he had saved his best for someone/something other than you? Remember, you’ve sacrificed for him, but instead of making all of his hard work available to you, he made it available to only himself, or to other people, while letting you believe he was giving you everything he could.

    1. Yes totally Jeremy, it is a deception of the same magnitude. But I hope I’m not the only woman to say that if the situation were reversed, and my husband wouldn’t give me sexual pleasure but I found out he had this crazy sexual background that he was withholding from me, I’d be just as pissed as I imagine he would (and should!) be if I were withholding from him that I had received an inheritance from my wealthy grandparents. Because marriage is about sharing, and if you don’t trust the person you’re with, how can you feel good about sharing with them?

      Anyway, if she had come clean before he found out about her past by this “tape” that miraculously appeared, if she had confessed and told him about her sordid history, this would have been a fantastic opportunity for them to really be honest with each other, and probably for him to start getting the kind of play he wanted from the start. It could have really worked out to both of their advantages, and they could have salvaged the relationship.

  43. Any encounter from a ONS to a 50 yr plus marriage has the one element in common.It has to have mutuality and beneficial.The only unconditional love that exits is from parent to child.

        1. I see that RPSMF.

          From Schedules of Mating:

          The Cuckold

          On some level of consciousness, men innately sense something is wrong with this situation, though they may not be able to place why they feel it or misunderstand it in the confusion of women’s justifications for it. Or they become frustrated by the social pressures to ‘do the right thing’, are shamed into martyrdom/savior-hood and committed to a feigned responsibility to these conventions. Nevertheless, some see it well enough to steer clear of single mothers, either by prior experience or observing other male cuckolds saddled with the responsibility of raising and providing for – no matter how involved or uninvolved – another man’s successful reproduction efforts with this woman.

          Men often fall into the role of the proactive or reactive Cuckold. He will never enjoy the same benefits as his mates short term partner(s) to the same degree, in the way of sexual desire or immediacy of it, while at the same time enduring the social pressures of having to provide for this Good Genes father’s progeny. It could be argued that he may contribute minimally to their welfare, but on some level, whether emotional, physical, financial or educational he will contribute some effort for another man’s genetic stock in exchange for a limited form of sexuality/intimacy from the mother. To some degree, (even if only by his presence) he is sharing the parental investment that should be borne by the short term partner. If nothing else, he contributes the time and effort to her he could be better invested in finding a sexual partner with which he could pursue his own genetic imperative by his own methodology.

          However, needless to say, there is no shortage of men sexually deprived enough to ‘see past’ the long term disadvantages, and not only rewarding, but reinforcing a single mother’s bad decisions (bad from his own interest’s POV) with regard to her breeding selections and schedules in exchange for short term sexual gratification. Furthermore, by reinforcing her behavior thusly, he reinforces the social convention for both men and women. It’s important to bear in mind that in this age women are ultimately, soley responsible for the men they choose to mate with (baring rape of course) AND giving birth to their children. Men do bear responsibility for their actions no doubt, but it is ultimately the decision of the female and her judgement that decides her and her children’s fate

          1. Jeremy, for an advocate, and most girls are advocates, “understanding” means accepting. Pushing and advocate so they “understand” means, for them, forcing them to accept. Which is why this one in particular doesnt want to give in. The reality of this subject goes against her own interests, and she just wishes the whole thing was confusing, so nobody would really “understand” it, thus, it would be pushed aside, and her own ideology could cover that space.

            The subject of this post doesnt need a thousand pages or repeating the premises and circling around the obvious. She doesnt want to “understand” so be it.

            Send her to HUS instead.

  44. “At age 50+, I might be an old guy, but in the general population i.e., outside of internet apocrypha, not a whole of women are seriously into engaging in threesomes”

    You’d be surprised. This ain’t the 50s with a scandalous kiss snuck between shy virgins at the school sock hop anymore.

  45. I’m not trying to create a justification for how men feel Yohami, that would be pointless.

    I’m trying to generate understanding via anecdote.

  46. Treebeard; those opposed to women’s reproductive freedom are conservative, christian, anti-marxist, and the most ardent opponents of any sort of communal responsibility. These beliefs are all directly tied together, around the construct of property rights, and all of them stem from the right of paternity and patrilineage.
    Well no, do what you please. Coool. But don’t expect to do it on my coin. I worked dam hard for it.
    “Communal responsibility”? What’s that when it’s at home? Sounds like “collective punishment” to me.

    A woman’s prized virginity is really about men’s need for paternity, and paternity is a property right. As you said yourself, it is the “greatest gift you can give a man,” which is a male-established, moral assumption, founded not in natural law but in the need to have the right of parent-ownership. Paternity (and maternity too, if you really want to know what I think) is a purely artificial construct created for the legal purpose of property transfer.
    WTF? Bang on the money! Have you been drinking? That’s right. ” the legal purpose of property transfer”, as exclusively used by feminists, transferring a man’s (In fact all sorts of utterly random and not necessarily related mens’) labor-price and lives into the hands of more than a few select women and their heterogenous spawn, as a right. By coercion.

    Well, wouldn’t you be somewhat aggrieved if you were taxed almost into destitution for the purpose of feeding the children of your avowed enemies? Because that’s what we have over here. They want to behead me and mine for being infidels and kuffirs, even offduty soldiers in the street get chopped. And the rest of the bludgers want us gone, for various bogus reasons connected to some mythical restitution for thousands if not millions of years of brutal subjection, or something. From the bottom of our coalmine.
    But most of all they want my money, so they don’t have to work, or house themselves and their multiple broodmares. And the local feminists are just fine with that. Commoooonity, innit.
    How very dare I say “you can piss right off with that. Whoever you are. Have we met?”.

    How you can claim, with a straight face, not to be some sort of communist is quite breathtaking in its audacity.

  47. @ YaReally

    “At age 50+, I might be an old guy, but in the general population i.e., outside of internet apocrypha, not a whole of women are seriously into engaging in threesomes”

    You’d be surprised. This ain’t the 50s with a scandalous kiss snuck between shy virgins at the school sock hop anymore.

    Agreed. I think many guys would be truly surprised what is possible (or even common), if they just let go of limiting beliefs, remained non-judgmental, and actively tried to make things happen. The problem is that many guys are so constrained with social brainwashing and individual hang-ups that they don’t push the limits and go for what they really want.

    1. “At age 50+, I might be an old guy, but in the general population i.e., outside of internet apocrypha, not a whole of women are seriously into engaging in threesomes”

      There was a time I would’ve agreed, but with the rise of social media and instant communication I’ve come to realize women are far more sexual and attention seeking than any guy previously was allowed to believe.

    2. The problem is that many guys are so constrained with social brainwashing and individual hang-ups that they don’t push the limitsand go for what they really want.

      Dr. Jeremy,

      What you see though from some is an attempt to conflate *pushing the limits” with actual sexual assault/rape. I can only think this is done in an intentional attempt to blur the lines and make anything else besides “enthusiastic consent” tantamount to rape. My fellow JFG blogger Han Solo might have some thoughts on this. I covered this in a couple posts

      http://www.justfourguys.com/sexual-escalation-whats-a-guy-supposed-to-do/

      http://www.justfourguys.com/sexual-escalation-addendum/

      I may do a third post at some point.

  48. The direct female correlation to what this man experienced would be if he secretly had a hidden family with many children (with hidden memorabilia), gave his fortune to them before he remarried as a pauper, had a secret vasectomy (even though his wife was desperate for children) and downgraded his job and only worked to maintain a subsistence level despite previously being a high flying banker.

    How many women would be happy with that?

  49. Yohami:

    Nailed it. As a further observation, it’s a neverending source of fascination to me how many women will simply gloss over men’s feelings, wants, needs and desires. It’s as if men’s participation in a relationship, from a ONS to a 50 year marriage, is completely unimportant. What men want, need and desire from a relationship is always an afterthought, a secondary or tertiary concern.

    1. Just curious Deti – do you ever really ask for what you want? Or is it just assumed she’ll know.

      I ask in all seriousness, because I’ve found with the men I’ve dated in the past (prior to this one anyway), and women I associate tell me the same, they almost never talk about their needs. And as a matter of interest, I’ve had a surprising number of male friends and colleagues admit as much.

      I’m sure there are all sorts of messed up reasons for that too, social conditioning and feminine imperative and whatever else, but as the saying goes, “Silence is consent.”

      1. I associate tell me the same, they almost never talk about their needs. And as a matter of interest, I’ve had a surprising number of male friends and colleagues admit as much.

        Yes, because appealing to women’s reason is so productive, not to mention a great turn on for her:

        http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/07/appeals-to-reason/

        Women don’t want a man to explain anything, they want them to Just Get It:

        http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

        Learn this now, women think they want the truth, but they never want full disclosure.

        1. “Women think they want the truth, but they never want full disclosure.”

          So? Why let that stop you? Who the hell wants full disclosure anyway? NO-one wants it, it sucks hearing the truth, but how can you have a real relationship when you are suppressing the truth?? As Gloria Steinem said:

          “The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.”

          Anyway, I’m glad you’re trying to help men to get over that, but seriously, your words really convey how habituated you are to letting your idealization of someone else’s importance dictate the terms of your life – and you’re right, women really don’t respect that.

          So, disclose! Let the chips fall where they may! Consequences be damned. If respect is what you want, this is what getting it looks like. Tell. The. Truth.

  50. @YOHAMI

    Jeremy, for an advocate, and most girls are advocates, “understanding” means accepting.

    If that is so, and I don’t like to sell people short, then LT falls short of the mark of an educated mind.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Aristotle

    1. well I thank you Jeremy for sparing me the harshness of rash judgement that your peers are inclined to mete out. I am more than capable of understanding a thought without accepting it. I am incapable, however, of accepting a thought without understanding it.

  51. Jeremy, advocating vs truth seeking, its really a matter of preference. There are lot of well educated and sharp advocates, and LT is one of the most articulated women I’ve encountered around lately. She has the brain power to see the point, she just doesnt want the point to be made, which is a completely different thing.

  52. Male Wastes of Time:

    1) Arguing with a woman
    2) Thinking you’ll get a woman to see or care about a man’s perspective on anything
    3) Listening to a woman talk about “what relationships are really like”
    4) Forgetting solipsism: “It’s not true for me, therefore it can’t be true at all.”
    5) Thinking that she’ll ever say anything that doesn’t amount to, “No, no, see, it’s different when I do it. I’m not like those girls.”

  53. Livingtree,

    Perhaps the reason men don’t talk about it, is the same your woman friends assume silence is consent: you don’t really care.

  54. I want to let this rest, mostly because if I continue this conversation with Yohami it will go way off topic.

    The basic response I would have is this:

    Rollo believes in an open-comment policy, because people will hang themselves.

    No one need supply the rope, but the audience needs to exist. Further, when latent challenges to the intellect are experienced, the mind is poked into improving. In short, I believe the mind can be prodded into thinking, and if my prods seem sharp and painful, then I’ve done my job.

  55. To amplify Yohami’s point, LT probably understands that men are repulsed by the woman’s misrepresentation and fraud. She was clearly holding out on her husband. LT doesn’t want to accept this. She chooses not to distinguish between “is” and “ought”. Men are all around her telling her “it is this way”. But LT won’t accept this. She continues to pound away, saying “but it SHOULDN’T be this way!” As Yohami says, LT is advocating for an ideological position; not trying to find out the truth and accept it for what it is.

    LT does not want to accept it. She wants men to change, to deny human nature, to fit into her ideology, because she so badly wants and needs her worldview to be true.

    1. Um, what the fuck are you talking about Deti? Would you please do me the kindness of picking out in my comments where I have done anything that you just said. Specifics, please.

    2. Deti, if you’re referring to my views on marriage, I don’t doubt at all “how it is”. I’m very aware of “how it is”. I just don’t want any part of it. I think I have the freedom to make that decision for myself. And I’m sure I’ll get what I deserve, which may well be nothing. I’m totally fine with that.

      As are you free to make your own choices. I’m not here to judge. If you want to marry for a trade-exchange, and you want a woman to sell you access to her body in exchange for free room and board, have at it… and I guess you’ll get what you deserve, which may well be a lifetime of anguish. I hope not, but that’s just “how it is”.

  56. @ livingtree2013
    “We grow up learning, by so many means, that women who are sexually active are undesirable to men as long-term mates. What we see is proof, everywhere, that women who are comfortable with their sexuality are… alone. So if women want to find said mate, we better not display sexual desire, especially not any wild stuff. So this is why they hide it.”

    Hiding her sexual desires would be understandable, but if this guy expressed his desire for raunchy sex and she repeatedly declined, then the fear of slut shaming is no longer a legitimate excuse, because by propositioning her, he gave her the green light.

    “I also don’t feel too bad for guy when he chooses to take on HER insecurities about sex as a statement of HIS desirability…find a woman who is comfortable with her sexuality, or make her believe you want one who is.”

    Are you saying that the reason she declined raunchy sex with her husband was because she was insecure and he didn’t make her feel comfortable? If so, that’s a non sequitur. After all, a girl who’s comfortable having raunchy sex with five guys she barely knows, should be comfortable having raunchy sex with her husband. Do you really think that those random guys made an effort to make her feel comfortable???

  57. @Shaman

    …hence the explosion of “chick porn” (romance novels), that, by the way, rake in far more revenue than online porn according to the book.

    Sorry I missed that nugget Shaman. It appears I am in the wrong industry.

  58. @YOHAMI
    “After seeing all this worthless back and forth with LT I came to realize it doesnt matter. I dont care if a woman, or women in general, can sympathize or not with this guys feelings. Its an interest exercise but pushing it is pointless. This is how men feel and its not going to change. The reasons and whys men feel this way are out there to explore, if any woman wants to understand these things, but really, it doesnt matter.”

    You’re right, the back and forth doesn’t matter. I’m glad Rollo has an open comment area, and he has used comments as examples of “women not getting it” very well. But really, just stop engaging them. That won’t make them stop blabbering, but it will improve the quality of the conversation.

  59. I have thought (and prayed) long and hard over this scenario, putting myself in his shoes. I have tried to envision forgiveness (that would lead to a dead marriage at best, or divorce on her terms, as she finds a less wary schlub). I have tried to envision putting the woman out for a time until she is repentant, as described in Ezekiel, but there is no desert or gnashing darkness in the era of SNAP and “modern” domestic disturbance laws. There is almost no way to MAP against internal revulsion of a woman. The idea of “open marriage” would destroy things almost as fast as a punch in the nose. Then again, I don”t see the Mafia, KGB, Triads, or Yakuza getting cuckolded…at all. As one who tries to faithfully do God’s Will, it appears that the mere air of threat would accomplish more than any entreaty to the heart, mind, or soul. Excitement, fear, arousal, and obedience, all from displaying a willingness to ignore the law. But how would a self-professed Christian obtain authority over this situation when the other party does really recognize said authority?

  60. @Christian_Caveman

    Curious what you are thinking…

    First of all – Divorce is a sin, IF you have sex outside of marriage, that is the sin
    If you Divorce, and the reason for that divorce was not her adultery, and it something that YOU want because you want another woman OR you divorce and then remarry – that is a sin, because you are in actuality still married “in God’s eyes” to the first wife.

    And all this is based upon the belief of what Paul wrote – Jesus was fairly silent about this whole area. There was a saying in the church I grew up in — “speak where the bible speaks, be silent where the bible is silent” — too bad most of the speaking in the new testament came from people other than Jesus – would have been great to have more from him directly.

  61. If there’s anything I would hope women get from reading this thread and comments, it’s this: Your N matters. Telling the truth about your N matters. We want your best. A husband is entitled to your best. If you’re not willing to give your best, then you shouldn’t marry. Men have feelings, wants, needs and desires; and they are important. If you don’t care about those feelings, wants, needs and desires, you should not marry.

  62. As one who tries to faithfully do God’s Will, it appears that the mere air of threat would accomplish more than any entreaty to the heart, mind, or soul. Excitement, fear, arousal, and obedience, all from displaying a willingness to ignore the law. But how would a self-professed Christian obtain authority over this situation when the other party does really recognize said authority?

    These are your problems:

    1) Thinking that there’s a difference between Christian women and non-Christian women.

    2) Thinking that self-professed Christian women are actually interested in what Jesus or the Bible have to say.

  63. “After all, a girl who’s comfortable having raunchy sex with five guys she barely knows, should be comfortable having raunchy sex with her husband”

    Not if it causes her to lose the upper hand in the power dynamic of the relationship…

  64. @ Morpheus,

    There are many attempts at social engineering to redistribute power and influence for various purposes. The problem with these attempts, however, is that they often run up against biological reality and sex differences. For example:

    But what if desire does not precede arousal?

    That’s what University of British Columbia psychiatrist Rosemary Basson, M.D., discovered in interviews with hundreds of women. Contrary to the conventional model, for many women, desire is not the cause of lovemaking, but rather, its result. “Women,” Basson explains, “often begin sexual experiences feeling sexually neutral.” But as things heat up, so do they, and they eventually experience desire.

    Given that, it may be difficult-to-impossible to get pro-active enthusiasm from a woman who is only re-actively aroused and desirous. How then, beyond theory and in practice, are we ever supposed to get to such enthusiasm, without the man initiating and escalating to create it? Certainly, there should be respect for women’s preferences and limits to initiation (as with the current “no” standard). But, unless men are “allowed” to initiate when women are only “sexually neutral”…it appears that both men and women may go to bed dissatisfied.

    The whole article I got the quote from can be found here:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/200907/desire-in-women-does-it-lead-sex-or-result-it

  65. “As Yohami says, LT is advocating for an ideological position; not trying to find out the truth and accept it for what it is. ”

    “If there’s anything I would hope women get from reading this thread and comments, it’s this: Your N matters. Telling the truth about your N matters. We want your best. A husband is entitled to your best. If you’re not willing to give your best, then you shouldn’t marry. Men have feelings, wants, needs and desires; and they are important. If you don’t care about those feelings, wants, needs and desires, you should not marry.”

    That’s pretty ideological though yourself Deti. Women are not going to be honest about their sexual past and if they marry later in life they will almost always be marrying down than their previous lovers. They aren’t going to not marry simply because they aren’t able to give their best. It is what it is. If you marry a woman that is over a certain age accept the consequences and if you are in this position it’s because you aren’t valuable enough to have other options.

  66. “Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me…”

    Somehow I doubt that. Your wife could not trust you to truly know her for fear of rejection. You couldn’t handle the truth (Victoria’s secret). Now that you know, things could be different. It was wrong to lie, and your ego has sustained a serious blow. I don’t want to downplay your anguish or minimize what she did. But, as time passes and things cool down, I advise you to consider her conduct as a wife and mother over the years, her sincerity in being willing to do anything to keep you, and her general integrity of character. Consider her motivation for the lie: was it to manipulate you, or was it to protect you? Discuss with the men who have revived their marriages the steps you would need to take to turn this around and determine whether you believe it is worth it. Finally, ask the toughest question of all: are you willing to know the truth, face it squarely, and ask what changes you may need to make to be a part of the solution? I sincerely wish you, your wife, and daughter the best of luck.

  67. @Kate

    Your wife could not trust you to truly know her for fear of rejection. You couldn’t handle the truth (Victoria’s secret)… Consider her motivation for the lie: was it to manipulate you, or was it to protect you?

    Fundamental impasse. You are justifying insulting the intelligence of your man. You are justifying lying to someone you’ve committed yourself to in order to preserve a situation favorable to you. If a woman can’t trust me with some knowledge about her, she’s going to be NEXT’d.

    Don’t insult the intelligence of your mate.

  68. @livingtree2013

    If you read the original thread, you will see that he didn’t take issue with her past. He would certainly be within his rights in assigning whatever weight to her past, but didn’t assign any so really he is doing everything that a modern progressive man is supposed to be doing. This makes it an ideal demonstration of the not very well publicized but very real limits of what betas can expect when they do everything “right” (scarequotes). You can check all the provider boxes, you can even check check all the right ideological boxes in relation to feminism, sexual attitudes, etc and it all boils down to negotiated desire. I suppose you would argue that sexual repression is just “in the air” as part of our culture, but this seems pretty dubious. She had 7 years to open up to her husband, to things that she knew that he wanted. And it wouldn’t have required her to reveal her past at all. 7 years!

  69. “A husband is entitled to your best. If you’re not willing to give your best, then you shouldn’t marry. Men have feelings, wants, needs and desires; and they are important. If you don’t care about those feelings, wants, needs and desires, you should not marry.”

    That is asking a lot of the average (or below average) woman. Women are supposed to turn down advantageous marriages to men who want to be with them instead of being honorably single? When funny, educated men that you just aren’t attracted to want to buy you houses, its a moral dilemma. It takes a lot of fortitude to say no. I don’t think I’m exaggerating to say most women wouldn’t be able to resist. If some provider type came along, they wouldn’t be above duping him (or themselves) to make life easier.

    As Ferrett wisely says, age is an important consideration here. We need to know the ages of this couple.

  70. Kate :

    If she didn’t trust him, she shouldn’t have married him.

    And she is the one who needs to change, not him.

  71. @Morpheus and Dr. Jeremy

    When extreme rules or laws about escalation, and the need for enthusiastic written consent, are put in place, it effectively makes the playing field that much harder for the average and lower guys to escalate. Meanwhile the Tom Brady alphas can get away with boob grabs from grateful and eager recipients.

    This is just one more way to protect hypergamous women from the unwanted advances of non-top males, the kind they don’t get enthusiastic about.

  72. “When funny, educated men that you just aren’t attracted to want to buy you houses, its a moral dilemma. It takes a lot of fortitude to say no.”

    Bullshit. It’s not a moral dilemma. The only moral choice is to decline.

    I guess I shouldn’t be surprised — a couple of women show up to defend and justify the woman’s conduct. I should have known this would happen.

    1. I advise you to consider her conduct as a wife and mother over the years, her sincerity in being willing to do anything to keep you, and her general integrity of character.

      Did you just skip over the part about her keeping this video for at least 7 years or did your solipsism force that bit of uncomfortable info out of your head before it registered?

      Mark, Mark, Mark, what’re you fucking doing to yourself brother?

  73. Her “conduct as a wife and mother over the years” and her “general integrity of character” includes lying, frauding her way into the marriage, continuing the fraud during the course of the marriage, about a matter integral to whether a true marriage even exists. Compounding this is the fact that she held out on him sexually.

    So, yes, he most definitely should consider her “conduct as a wife” and her “general integrity of character”.

  74. Mark, Mark, Mark, what’re you fucking doing to yourself brother?

    Oh this is that Kate. I see.

    Did you just skip over the part about her keeping this video for at least 7 years or did your solipsism force that bit of uncomfortable info out of your head before it registered?

    Bingo.
    The fact that it happened.
    The fact that she kept it from him.
    The fact that she enjoyed it.
    The fact that she is not attracted to him.
    The fact that she takes full benefits as a wife, but doesn’t give him full benefits in return.
    The fact that there is no possible denial that any future sex between them will be duty sex, and that’s the best case scenario.

    This is her conduct as a wife and mother.
    This is her level of sincerity.
    This is her integrity of character.

  75. Ok, I’ll “bring it on” @livingtree2013. Just like me, this guy deserves everything he’s got coming. We believed the lie that “this one is special” and we won’t be the 50% that get divorced (and the 50% that don’t, how many are even remotely happy with their marriage?). I will probably lose $800,000 in my divorce to my frigid wife who earned almost nothing and we have no children. Any man who marries a WESTERN woman in this current environment has to know that the cards and odds are stacked against them dramatically. Enter the church. You are an immoral man if you don’t man up and marry those sluts!, which is contrary to anything the bible says.
    So getting to your arguments: Don’t marry screwed up women. 20% of western women are the best marriage potential in the world. The other 80% know exactly how to pretend to be the 20% because they have to fool idiot beta providers to fund their unearned cash and prizes lifestyle and raise their alpha fathered bastards.
    Women are screwed up about being judged for being sluts? Like most western betas, I was conditioned to let the past lie. My ex was giving me the same as any previous so I had no problem with taking on a long term commitment with her. The OP’s problem was his wife was intentionally hiding her past to prevent him from knowing he wasn’t getting her best (in other words, he was nothing more than an emotional tampon and financial ATM).
    Slut being used as a derogatory term is suddenly an excuse for OPs shitty wife behaving the way she did? This is just another typical trait of an inferior western female who is too stupid to reconcile the truth of her own sexuality! This is solipsism pure and simple!
    Western civilization is in the process of committing suicide, and the screwed up dynamics between men and women are just one example. In my international experience as a cargo pilot, when western men meet non-western women, the man is flabbergasted at how wonderful relationships can be! She’s just happy that he’s a man; no shit tests, no drama and no demands. A western woman pretends to be the 20%, gets married and then suddenly the feminist indoctrinations kicks in. To in any way support or bring her man up, is somehow to bring herself down as a woman. So she demeans him and shit tests him into oblivion and the marriage is destroyed while the hapless beta wonders what he ever did wrong.

  76. @ HanSolo

    This is just one more way to protect hypergamous women from the unwanted advances of non-top males, the kind they don’t get enthusiastic about.

    Actually, taken to the extreme it disempowers all men from making any advances, even the top ones. It would make all men have to wait to be enthusiastically chosen, or else face heavy consequences for being “wrong”.

    There is also another factor to consider…it would potentially change the power dynamic among women too. Currently, the attractive women have more choice and control, because more men approach and escalate with them. But, if men are not allowed to approach and escalate…the attractive women no longer get a larger pick of men. Instead, the “assertive” women, who would escalate on the passive men, would have the greater influence and choice.

    That might be a radical change in power among women – especially if the “assertive” women who would proactively escalate on a passive, disempowered “Tom Brady” were different SMV from the “attractive” women who would motivate his own freely-chosen escalation…

  77. @Dr. Jeremy

    Yes, taken to the extreme, it would disempower top men as well, though they would still be approached much more than women, as we saw in the OkCupid experiment highlighted at heartiste.

    But the key point is that it isn’t taken to the extreme and, as currently practiced, it does act as I described and as seen in the SNL clip: less attractive men will bear the brunt of any enforcement of the “enthusiastic consent” for approaching or escalating because they aren’t wanted by hypergamous women and the top men will be welcomed and, at heart, the women will be more afraid of losing them than a little too much escalation from such men.

    It sets up a partial societal shit test for men. Are you bold enough and brave enough to escalate in spite of the looming threat of being acused? By doing so, they at least put themselves into the category of the brave. However, there is the large factor of intrinsic attractiveness that goes into play as well, that often can’t be overcome by showing one’s bravery. Notice how both men were “brave” and approached the women in the SNL skit but only the more attractive man’s bravery was rewarded.

    But, yeah, if men completely stopped approaching women then only the “brave” or forward women would get any men and due to hypergamy-inspired bravery usually only working on women to approach men that are more attractive (exceptions exist), the most attractive women could be left out.

  78. @ deti

    Bullshit. It’s not a moral dilemma. The only moral choice is to decline.

    I personally agree and try to conduct my own behavior accordingly. However, I also recognize that others I interact with may not be choosing to follow the same rules of conduct that I do. Also, there are no longer the strong, universal, social, religious, and moral sources to enforce that everyone follows those rules and does what is truly moral, just, and fair.

    So, we can talk about ways to possibly re-instill such universal morality. We can even discuss how to possibly find, test, and pick partners who still manage to hold such values. But, for me at least, assuming that people are currently motivated to play by those rules – without me personally ensuring it – is simply setting up for frustration and failure.

  79. @Dr. Jeremy
    “Actually, taken to the extreme it disempowers all men from making any advances, even the top ones. It would make all men have to wait to be enthusiastically chosen, or else face heavy consequences for being “wrong”.”

    No, because women instinctively know what alphas know: that rules don’t apply to alphas. Alphas will continue to break the rules because of their sense of entitlement that they EXPECT to be allowed to break the rules, and breaking those rules will help women determine which men are alphas, and attract them. Women know that even if there was some legal law against looking at a woman, they would only enforce it with betas…with alphas they would say “oh no, it’s okay this time because–” The alphas simply wouldn’t fear the heavy consequences because they know they’re high-value.

    In an ideal world for women, they hold all the power and all the choice and are allowed to make exceptions for whoever they want for whatever reasons they want. Check out the Jezebel article on that “men & women think differently” brain-scan thing. The Jezzie takeaway from that was “women are leaders who can change the world and should be in high-up positions, and men are grunts who are only good for doing menial tasks” instead of “women yap, men get shit done” lol In the sexual marketplace, women want complete control over which men approach them and which men go back to their cave.

    That’s why they hate game. Because PUAs figured out how to mimic those exceptions close enough that women can’t tell the difference, and over time “fake it till you make it” kicks in and guys who should’ve been weeded out of the sexual marketplace end up dominating it. So when a woman thinks of a learned alpha like a PUA, she doesn’t think “cool natural fun sexual high-value guy”, she looks at the neckbearded virgin loser beside her and thinks “fuck, I could end up attracted to THAT guy…I have to tell him to quit being a jerk and ignore that game stuff and tell him PUA doesn’t work and they’re all virgins and he should just be himself…’cause good god, what if he bettered himself and then I fucked him??”

  80. @ HanSolo & YaReally

    To be more precise Han…they do it to avoid mating with their own male SMV equivalent. Changing the power structure allows more of them to mate-up (i.e. hypergamy). Of course, the lower SMV the woman, the more she benefits. The high SMV women, however, who used to be able to secure commitment from a high SMV man – now only wait in line for their quick turn too. So, holding all of the power and choice makes all women more-or-less equal…giving them all a turn with the best…which ends up benefiting the low, while costing the high.

    Of course, the Alpha male gets fleeced on the deal too. Although he may glut himself – it still is not under his power, choice, or control. It is at the whim of the women in power to uni-laterally choose. Given the fate of being used for reproduction versus resources, it is probably better to be on the bed. But, personally, I rather try to find ways to maintain my freedom, power, and choice – rather than simply being led to pick the best of two subservient options (and fail to realize I’m not really “winning” with either of them).

  81. @Dr. J.

    Yeah, I agree that many women these days are avoiding men of equal value. It’s interesting how in online dating, most of the time a woman messages a man first, it’s some guy that’s 1-3 points out of her league, and they think–or hope–that they have a chance beyond a mere pump and dump.

    As men, though, I don’t think we realize what it must be like in the wild west mating of today, getting hit on by guys that are 1 or 2 points higher. Imagine if women 1 or 2 or even 3 points higher were hitting on you.

    Back in the days of get married young and stay married, women probably didn’t have the panoply of fine cock pursuing them they do now.

    And yes, the lower SMV women benefit more but that’s more because the higher SMV aren’t offering themselves up for casual sex quite as easily. Because if they were, they could steal away market share from their frumpier and homelier sisters quite easily.

    As to empowerment, I’ve often argued that run of the mill alphas have less societal power than their percentile-equivalent females (alpha females, you could call them). But it’s the few apex alphas that really rule the roost that love things as they are now. We often (rightfully) criticize feminism for amplifying the demise of the beta male beyond what great wealth and technology have done to give women independence. But it’s really the apex alpha males that allowed and allow this and benefit greatly from it, through vast amounts of hot pussy, voters to pander to and get elected by, consumers to buy over-priced crap, and more workers to drive down wages. Since the top males and most of the women are in alliance at the current moment, along with many white knight and mangina supporters, there’s not much that average men can do at the moment beyond learn the truth and try to make the best of their situation–learn some game, figure out what they want and try to go for it as best they can, hopefully find one of the too-few women that haven’t been too intoxicated by the dominance of the feminine and feminist imperatives.

  82. @Mark – Jesus man, wake the fuck up! Don’t live in denial!

    On the whole: I find it hilarious that Kate considers the theft of a man’s money (buying her a house) to be a “moral dilemma”. Perhaps she can pay off a quarter-million-dollar-property at the equivalent of one $100 sex-act at a time, then her conscience will be clear.

    ‘Course, that’s the long view. It’d be faster and easier to marry then divorce and collect her well-deserved cash and prizes. After all, she never loved him and so every sexual act was an act of deep humiliation. Having to endure sex once or twice a month while she was housed, clothed, and fed – basically pampered for nothing much – was so degrading to her heart and soul.

    She really deserves everything that she can ream out of him, too. On an ongoing basis via alimony. He got her accustomed to living at a certain level of comfort, now that she’s kicking his shitty ass out the door she will still by God get that same level of comfort out of him. The courts will enforce it too, on pain of throwing him into jail. It’s his own fault.

    Oh fuck, apologies to all. There is far too much reality in this comment. Girls and mangina’s may feel free to denigrate and scorn it with the utter contempt that it deserves.

  83. I could have been clearer. Maybe I should have emphasized the low class aspect of this phenomenon more. Of course these things happen! But it happens with a certain kind of woman with a certain kind of background far more often than it does with women in general. If we are talking about hood rats and trailer trash, that is a whole different story so far from my world that it is irrelevant. And even if you want to just reduce the sample to high-value women, the point remains that this kind of slutwife surprise is markedly less-occurring.

    But, like every conversation on the internet, the moment one remarks “X has a tendency for Y,” it is read as “X is always Y” so that a personal exception becomes decisive evidence disproving the contention.

    I remember when I first encountered internet porn, my immediate reaction was: every single woman must have naked photos on the web somewhere. The sheer volume and diversity and lack of repetition made the variety seem infinite, and for all practical purposes, it is infinite because there is only so much a finite mind can process. That is the result of our attempt (and failure) to comprehend the actual volume difference between exponentials. A hundred can seem like a thousand and a thousand a million.

    For example, if a million dollars worth of $1000 bills were stacked, how high would it be? Twelve inches. Now guess how high a stack worth a trillion dollars be?

    Sixty-three miles high.

    A million seconds back was 12 days ago. A trillion seconds? 30,000 B.C.

    When four of your friends tell you the same sordid tale, it is in our nature to extrapolate its occurrence into ubiquity. A survey asked college students to estimate what percentage of our population is gay. A plurality said 25% or more. Looking at our culture, you could imagine why so many could be so wrong. Statistical truth, less than 3%.

    Regardless, I granted the point despite this phenomenon and rather rested my contention on instinct. The story does not make it past the uncanny valley for me. Why exactly? I’m not sure. It just smells. And sheer statistical probability backs up my hunch, no matter how many nationwide sluts call Tom Leykis to confess. When it is wall-to-wall ribaldry filling hours of podcasts, it seems like a lot. But even correcting for dishonesty and exaggeration, we are talking about how many stories altogether? A couple dozen? Let’s be generous and say a thousand. This is still a self-selected and self-reporting sample out of 150,000,000. Or less than a hundredth of a percent.

    Further, I did not call it an “obvious” fake but rather the opposite: I could understand the temptation to not even pause to consider its veracity. Only upon specific, conscious reflection do the probabilities come into focus, and, as I said, there are reasons why the entire commenting readership glided right past the question.

    Finally, only YaReally could skim what I said and then paraphrase it as “Sorry guys, average to beautiful women do NOT like depraved fucking. Light romantic candles and call her a goddess, that’s what they really want.”

    It’s the same predictable, insufferable, jump-to-predetermined-conclusions this tool offers every time someone has a slightly different take on things. I’d figure an account hack if he ever responded differently.

    My point was, the higher a girl’s sexual market value the less slutty/depraved she has to act to gain the same sexual attention. Not necessarily wants to act or even will act under certain circumstances. But has to act in order to compete with her prettier sisters. So we can draw general conclusions about a girl’s attractiveness sight-unseen based on behavior.

    Isn’t this so obvious as to be beyond debate? Are there HB10 swingers and nudists and coprophages out there hiding from all detection? (“More than you imagine, prude!” is not an answer.)

    I’m sure the Pick Up Scientists have even intricately plotted on Excel some sort of inverse relationship between “HB” and “availability” in coordination with the Z-axis of “difficulty to bang” or whatever else they preoccupy themselves with in the off-hours. Newsflash: girls with fewer options (uglier) can even the playing field by presenting themselves as easier to lay (sluttier).

    Matt

  84. YaReally sagely informed this benighted audience:

    “At age 50+, I might be an old guy, but in the general population i.e., outside of internet apocrypha, not a whole of women are seriously into engaging in threesomes”

    You’d be surprised. This ain’t the 50s with a scandalous kiss snuck between shy virgins at the school sock hop anymore.

    Oh for fucksake. This is how deluded you imagine your critics are? That they don’t notice what decade they are in?

    Could a person who isn’t stuck in the last millennium possibly call bullshit on your exaggerated assertions?

    Witness how absurdly you have to caricature an opponent in order to make your conclusions seem inarguable. What makes you think you have any idea what would “surprise[]” this fellow you’ve never met and probably never even engaged before?

    Are you saying — let me get this straight — that the sexual marketplace has changed over the last sixty years? That Eisenhower is no longer president? Madness! We went to the moon, too? POPPYCOCK.

    No. Shit. Sherlock.

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