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To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.

I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.

I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.

I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.

Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?

Her: Why are we talking about this?

Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?

Her: are you taking drugs?

Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.

She starts crying.

Me: Do you have anything to say?

She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.

Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.

She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut

Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.

She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.

She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.

Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.

She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.

Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.

She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you

Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.

Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.

I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.

I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.

As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.

I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.

Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”

I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.

I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.

Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.

There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.

As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.

There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.

Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.

The Best of Her

The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.

Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.

Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.

Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.

One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.

I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.

The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.

I Want You to Want Me

Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.

Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.

She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.

[…] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change

What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.

He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Aristippus
Aristippus
8 years ago

I am going to tell you exactly what’s going on here and respond to some comments at the same time…….. Living tree said: “He was not defrauded though, I will not concede that point. Call it victim blaming if you need to, but she was a mess right from the start, from the VERY beginning. She never once gave him what he wanted, or ever gave him any impression that she would ever be what he wanted, so WHY WOULD HE EVER THINK THAT IT IS A WISE INVESTMENT?” *** I have to agree. She was screwed up from the… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Aristippus

Aristippus, great post. You make sharp observations. Though I don’t get why you think my comment about her concealing her past for shame is ‘naive’. I doubt you really understand how much shame disrupts women’s sanity.

Bluedog
8 years ago

Rollo – as always thank you for the post. @ Dr. Jeremy, re: December 5th, 2013 at 12:14 am “… there are no longer the strong, universal, social, religious, and moral sources to enforce that everyone follows those rules and does what is truly moral, just, and fair. “So, we can talk about ways to possibly re-instill such universal morality.” I’ve thought a lot about this and it may be that I was reading Aurelius, Cicero and some other stoics around the time of it, but an idea I’ve tossed around a bit in my own mind is a re-establishment… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

@ livingtree2013 Now that we have clarified terms, I believe we are in agreement on this point. I can see where you make a distinction between concern for surface-level thoughts for validation, and concern with deeper values for satisfying trade. The only additional item I would clarify is: The slut-behavior that Rollo wrote about in this article, really, deep-down, at its core, it is rebellion against the status quo. We should be encouraging it. From my vantage point, her “slut” behavior was not any more authentic or values-based than her “married” behavior. She was just looking for “I’m a slut”… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

Dr J, I don’t think it’s possible for me to agree with you more enthusiastically..

I have advocated for ethics teaching in school children as young as grade three, by that i mean definitely not what ethics they should hold, but the instilling of thinking processes to give them tools to learn HOW to form ethically driven decisions of their own making.

Essentially, a counter to every other teaching in our world which encourages short-sighted decision making based on other people’s approval rather than concern for their inherent worth.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

Also Dr J et al., some reading you might be interested in: http://thelatticegroup.org/is-marriage-just-a-social-status-symbol http://wwnh.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/1847-when-married-men-hit-on-you/ In this last article, the (male) writer makes an astute observation: “Society is what we all do and men dominate it. Culture is why we all do what we do, and women dominate it. Why we do something comes before what we do, which means: As women go, so goes society.” Point being, if what he says is true, then women need to provide a better reason for society to do the things it does. At the moment, their reasons are very shallow. Just as a… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT, I am very much NOT a believer in the strict biology-only theory espoused by Rollo and several others here. This guy gets it >>> http://edge.org/conversation/how-culture-drove-human-evolution Great link and very interesting stuff. However you’re doing a strawman. I dont think anyone here has a biology-only posture, as we continuously talk about culture, morals, the past the present and the future. The study and ideas that guy is producing are completely compatible with the “red pill” which can be summarized as hypergamy. In the light of the ideas from this guy, the blue pill would be a collaborative intermarket culture with… Read more »

Sao Feng
Sao Feng
8 years ago

The women are just posting comments for tingles.

I don’t get the point of engaging them in any sort of logical discussion. Isn’t that investing time…which would be better spent going out on the streets and pulling young girls?

Tom
Tom
8 years ago

Has anyone else noticed the irony that this guy confirmed his wife’s worst fears?

It wouldn’t surprise me if there’s a lot more background we’re not hearing, because we’re only seeing this story from the perspective of a pissed-off AFC.

Who knows if early on in their relationship this guy instilled a fear in her about revealing her sexual background.

Liz
Liz
8 years ago

Tom, Obviously she has background baggage. Normal women don’t get pumped up the ass by five men and yell, “I’m a whore!”
The baggage doesn’t matter, what matters is that she is a fraud. All frauds/thieves/con artists have baggage in their past that made them who they are.

Liz
Liz
8 years ago

And many (probably most) men don’t want to marry trampy hoes who have engaged in group sex acts and raise kids with them, it is quite likely he feels the same and made it clear sometime during the courtship. That’s actually why this would be fraud and not a simple misunderstanding.

Cylux
Cylux
8 years ago

Has anyone else noticed the irony that this guy confirmed his wife’s worst fears? It wouldn’t surprise me if there’s a lot more background we’re not hearing, because we’re only seeing this story from the perspective of a pissed-off AFC. Who knows if early on in their relationship this guy instilled a fear in her about revealing her sexual background. How exactly does ‘wanting to have more than perfunctory sex with your husband’ count as ‘revealing her sexual background’? I mean our AFC was quite willing to play slowly slowly catchy monkey, where should she have actually found hubby to… Read more »

Kate
Kate
8 years ago

Yes, Tom, I did. Which is why I originally said she couldn’t trust him. No one is advocating what she did or her lying about it. Not one single person here would agree its fine to have that kind of past or mislead others about it. But saying that’d he’d have been okay with it if she’d just been honest with him is not being honest with himself. It obviously deeply, deeply impacted him and, at this point, according to what we know, has ruined their relationship. Just as she knew it would.

Glengarry
Glengarry
8 years ago

It would be really unhealthy to stay in that relationship, so get out. (In a just world, the wife would move far away.) Have the daughter paternity tested. Keep multiple copies of the film. Get an equitable divorce. Apart from that, it’s interesting to see “relationship equity” play out here. He’s being patient and forgiving, both before and after his discovery, probably because of an internal belief that they have a history he’s not willing to burn. At the same time, she is unwilling to end it, not, it appears, because of any affection but because there are still resources… Read more »

Aristippus
Aristippus
8 years ago

Living tree said: I don’t get why you think my comment about her concealing her past for shame is ‘naive’. I doubt you really understand how much shame disrupts women’s sanity. *** This should be pretty obvious. Not all women are like that (How’s that for twisting a cliche around and using it in the other direction?). Some people are shameless. Yes, I know very well the lengths many women will go to to avoid shame. They are obsessed with what others will think about them to an unhealthy degree. This isn’t a case of shame though. It was simply… Read more »

tacomaster2
tacomaster2
8 years ago

Where are people finding these old videos at? I hear about this scenario repeatedly. There’s millions of video porn out there. Anyway.

This situation sounds similar to mine with my prudish wife. I wonder if I’ve been lied to. Time to scour the internet for research purposes.

LiveFearless
8 years ago

@Muttley STOP APOLOGIZING for yourself. Take it from someone that was severely shy, morbidly obese and a virgin for the majority of this life. We put your comments into a simple word counting app, and found that you apologized no less than three times. Of course the culture creation industry has embedded the ‘men should apologize’ mandate into everything popular for decades. MOST men in the world (on average) have your same height. This ‘5’8″‘ you mention only matters on popular online dating sites. They have membership of >70% women. And remember, there are a lot of men here that… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

@ livingtree2013 My theoretical framework is Bio-Psycho-Social. This is standard psychological training, to look at an issue from multiple levels. Essentially, each level serves as a foundation for the one above, with higher levels modifying the expression of lower. Thus, how we express and experience something like biological desire, will be modified by our psychology (perhaps how we feel about love and sex) and society (rules around love and sex). In turn, the psycho-social then enhance, inhibit, or alter our ability to meet those lower biological needs (only allowing and wanting sex under certain conditions, with a subset of people).… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

I don’t know yet, Dr. J, there’s something that doesn’t sit properly with me about the theory you espoused, I’m not sure I fully agree but I’m not yet sure why. I wonder if its that we have the same end goal but are just attempting to get there by different paths. Biology is important, and I won’t deny that I think if we respected our biology a bit more we might make better sense out of our lives, but stripping back to bare bones biology just seems like regression. Actually its not just LIKE regression, it IS regression. Is… Read more »

Tin Man
8 years ago

How far will a woman go to NOT look like a slut?

My ex-wife told our 18 year old son that her man had to spend the night because it was too dangerous for him to drive home – the roads were just to slick (he drives a big ass 4wheel drive Jeep – you’ve probably seen them on the road) and that he was going to sleep in her room, but on top of the covers. (really?)

Tin Man
8 years ago

@Muttley Listen this from @LiveFearless…”She’s NOT your friend. Stop being the best listener and shoulder to cry on in the world. TIME is the most valuable gift you’ve been given…” All I can give you is advice from my own personal experience. Anytime you are spending with her RIGHT NOW is time that you will never get back. She has her hooks in you, and is keeping you exactly in the place she wants you to be – and you are allowing it. Until you FULLY step away, cut the bonds and get yourself in the proper mindset, your life… Read more »

Morpheus
8 years ago

I don’t know yet, Dr. J, there’s something that doesn’t sit properly with me about the theory you espoused, I’m not sure I fully agree but I’m not yet sure why. At the risk of being presumptuous, I’ll tell you why. You are having a visceral reaction to the biological framework of “It’s just not fair”. My sense is the vast majority of women have tremendous difficulty with the is-ought distinction. I have seen it play out in a number of debates. Women often conflate the two, and either reject/demonize the messenger of what is, or begin to fabricate their… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Morpheus

No, Morpheus that’s definitely not it. Not for me anyway, I can’t speak for anyone else as to their reasons though. The reason is logical, not emotional, its lingering in my mind, but the connections haven’t been made yet.

Allow me to formulate my thoughts on it for a bit, if you will, hopefully I can explain why it doesn’t fit.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Morpheus

Also Morpheus, I don’t doubt that “AFBB” exists, I’m more than certain that it does. And I don’t read Susan’s article as though she thinks it doesn’t exist either. I (and Susan, and probably most women…) just doubt the reasons you guys cite for that behavior. I think it is an incredible oversimplification to attribute this behavior to inate hypergamy, as if it is a biological motivation. And I do plan on rebutting this myth fully, when I have the time to do the leg-work. As much as I’d love to do that right this minute, I do have to… Read more »

Aaron the Just
8 years ago

@livingtree2013 Ah, I see. It’s all the man’s fault for marrying a woman who was more than willing to perform sex acts with strangers in college, but wouldn’t perform then on her own husband. I do partially agree with you. The only cure for this disease will be an absolute, all-out strike on marriage, cohabitation, dating, exclusivity, and other male forms of commitment. It appears we are already part-way there; my experience is that women in their late teens and 20s offer up sex first and hope for commitment later. But is this what you really meant by “tell women… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Aaron the Just

Aaron, what is your issue with this situation exactly? She’s told you what she wants, and you don’t mind giving it to her. There are no misconceptions here about what the arrangement is. Sounds like a pretty fair trade to me. And yet you condemn her for it. You want to put women on pedestals who clearly don’t want to be on them, and then you’re angry at them because they don’t share your values. Your values which, I’m guessing from your tale, you never once told her (or showed her) that you hold, but you are more than happy… Read more »

aaronthejust
8 years ago

Dearest @Muttley,

Boys and girls can’t be friends. Please see http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/19/playing-friends/

In short, if you aren’t fucking a girl, you’d better be using her to meet her hot friends so that you can fuck them. Otherwise, she’s just using you.

And letting a woman married to an itenerant, drug-addled muscian cheat with you is fair game. Just make sure she’s still attractive. And restrict the friendship to only sex.

Muttley
Muttley
8 years ago

Live Fearless, Tin Man and Aaron thank you for your comments. I realise now that I wasn’t applying the red pill ideas to my own situation with my ex. Something like “I can see how it works in general, but obviously my case is different”…duh! I now see the dynamics more clearly. Since I started on this shattering journey I have become an insomniac. There are times when I feel the exhilaration of a ‘new me’ being born and others when I feel so tired that I just want to slip back into the comforts of blue pill depression. My… Read more »

Sao Feng
Sao Feng
8 years ago

LyingTree2013 refers to you men as “boys” in one of her earlier replies. Women code-word for lapdogs and beta boys.

I’m not understanding the oneitis-type mentality in engaging in any sort of logical conclusion with her, nor attempting to persuade her of anything.

Just let her go to the clubs and pull 20-year old boys.

lisamc46
lisamc46
8 years ago

This is sad on so many levels for everyone concerned. Something about this guy’s account just seems off to me. Why would his wife keep the incriminating video for so many years? If she didn’t keep it how did he suddenly obtain it? Are there really women who are so perverse that they would allow 5 men to have sex with them? Could this woman have been drugged or drunk when the incident took place? That would not excuse what took place, but it would explain why it took place. It seems absence a true miracle of God in both… Read more »

New Yorker
New Yorker
8 years ago

@Muttley

Congrats on your awakening. All good things take time. However, be secure that once the inner alpha and beta start fighting it is only a matter of time before the alpha wins. Keep the faith and all will be good.

arid2385
8 years ago

Tom: “Has anyone else noticed the irony that this guy confirmed his wife’s worst fears? … Who knows if early on in their relationship this guy instilled a fear in her about revealing her sexual background.” Exactly. This doesn’t seem that complicated, and I think he’s making it about himself when it really is not. She didn’t want him to see her as a whore, pure and simple. Obviously the world of a pornography movie and the world of a married couple are different places. More likely than not, she wanted to keep the two identities separate. This does not… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
8 years ago

Rollo, this thread is a gift that keeps on giving. The examples of female rationalization in service to the Female Imperative arrive one after the other, as off of an assembly line. It’s becoming an exemplar. Note how arid completely dismisses the fact that the wife in this case denied any variation in sex to her alleged husband for seven years, and only offered it when she was busted. Note how lyingtree2013 sinuously twists herself into a pretzel, on the one hand admitting that hypergamy exists, on the other hand insisting in her usual “But Ought! Ought! Not IS!” way… Read more »

arid2385
8 years ago

Anonymous Reader: “Note how arid completely dismisses the fact that the wife in this case denied any variation in sex to her alleged husband for seven years, and only offered it when she was busted.” And my point stands–when she was doing what she did before, she viewed herself as acting like a whore and saw that as at odds with her married identity. Furthermore, he says she viewed certain positions/acts as degrading, i.e., whorish. She said she would do so now because she was fearful of him leaving her altogether. Do not underestimate the Madonna-Whore complex that women *and*… Read more »

arid2385
8 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Who said anything about defense? I said the entire situation is messed up, starting with her actions from the beginning. What I disagree with is the husband’s insistence that this is all about how attracted she is to him.

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  arid2385

arid,

What I disagree with is the husband’s insistence that this is all about how attracted she is to him.

So if a man can have wild random sex with a bunch of sluts but wont like having sex with you, it has nothing to do with how much he’s attracted sexually to you.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Sometimes sex doesn’t have anything to do with attraction, Yohami. Men have sex all the time with women they aren’t attracted to, and don’t have sex with women they are attracted to. So do women. The madonna-whore complex doesn’t just manifest with women, Yohami. We both suffer from it. I hate to reference wikipedia for this, but the fact that wikipedia has an entry about it, which in the first paragraph refers to it as a men’s complex, would indicate that this is pretty elementary stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna%E2%80%93whore_complex It is quite possibly the most destructive psychology that mankind endures still to… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT, Im familiar with the Madonna Whore complex. When you pointed that her behavior might do with shame I agreed. And at the core of con artists and narcissist and degenerates, there’s a lot of shame.

Still, I extend the question to you. If a man can have sex with a bunch of sluts but wont like having sex to you, it has nothing to do with how much he’s sexually attracted to you?

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Sexual desire has to do with a wide range of things, Yohami, besides physical attraction. I’ve seen so many reasons men want, or don’t want, to have sex with women, and quite routinely they have nothing to do with genuine attraction. Same goes for women. We are very complex creatures, living in a very complex world, a world which encourages falsehood and superficiality, every minute of every day. People in the western world are dearly hooked on vanity-affirmation, so much so that I think it is difficult for us to actually even KNOW when genuine attraction is present, or what… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT,

I’ve seen so many reasons men want, or don’t want, to have sex with women, and quite routinely they have nothing to do with genuine attraction.

Saying “its complicated” might work as a pickup line but doesnt do much here.

I’ll take that you can be in a relationship with a womanizer who wont have sex with you and be ok with it.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Not a chance Yohami, that would never happen in my life. If you’ve taken that out of anything I’ve said so far in this conversation, I clearly didn’t communicate very well.

But that is not to say that there aren’t women who would accept that, many do in fact. As I said, the world is a complicated place, with many conflicted motivations. I just don’t happen to be one of them who does, nor do I understand what would motivate someone to accept that. Low self-esteem perhaps?

YOHAMI
8 years ago

arid,

What I disagree with is the husband’s insistence that this is all about how attracted she is to him.

So if a man can have wild random sex with a bunch of sluts but wont like having sex with you, it has nothing to do with how much he’s attracted sexually to you.

LittleWolf
LittleWolf
8 years ago

Now, whilst I am willing to believe she didn’t want him to think she was a slut, if their relationship was all that, she should KNOW and TRUST him enough to reveal that side of herself. He clearly loves her and the problem isn’t a virgin/whore dichotomy or anything. It is possible she was using sex as a bargaining tool I am currently with a man who was a virgin at the age of 24. Now with that comes his insecurity wondering how many dicks I’ve seen and my initial fear of him being put off by my past (I… Read more »

Tin Man
8 years ago

I’m not as eloquent as Rollo or Morpheus, but let me give this a try Arid… Woman HAVE or DON’T HAVE sex with someone based upon their attraction level [in the language of a Man, she just can’t get it up for him]. In this case, the wife was basically having duty sex with her husband – and from it sounds like – not very often over the 7 year marriage. Now, attraction is a very dynamic thing – and I’m not even going to attempt to put the nuances in this comment. I will say this…within a LTR, it… Read more »

Rod Kierkegaard
Rod Kierkegaard
8 years ago

You want an alpha male response? I’ll give you an alpha male response. First: Did I misread or do you have a child with this woman who has been living with you for 7 years? Were those 7 years good or bad in other ways? has she been a loyal, devoted, and caring wife and mother? Because that doesn’t seem to matter as much to you as blowjobs and anal sex. And what about your poor kid, caught up in the fallout of this bullshit little beta tantrum of yours? Second: Which brings us to the crux of the matter–you… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago

Rod Kierkegaard,

You have so little idea of what you’re talking about I’ll call you Rudy.

livingtree2013
8 years ago

Guys, Rod here just illustrated in two sentences why you get so much negative feedback from feminists about your “alpha” ambitions: 1) “An alpha male enters any marriage with the clear understanding (with his innermost self) that he is going to discreetly sleep with a number of other women during the course of his long marriage and maybe keep a mistress or two as his economic fortunes improve.” 2) “Straying with other men after that is “cheating” what happened before in her life is her business–and none of yours.” (Message: What he does is entitlement. What she does is cheating.… Read more »

Muttley
Muttley
8 years ago

@New Yorker
Thanks, that’s really good to know…appreciate it!

deti
deti
8 years ago

“If you believe this woman engaged in 5-way, double-penetration, bukakke, amateur, porn videos as some form of civil disobedience against her domineering moralistic and patriarchal overlords you need to go back to the drawing board.” Ha. It’s ridiculous to think that any woman has sex with a man as some sort of a political statement. The sexual liberation that arrived as part of the feminist movement wasn’t “political”, it’s personal on the deepest most primal levels. It’s the “right” to have sex with the most attractive men she can get because that’s what’s in her interest. It validates her worth… Read more »

Rod Kierkegaard
Rod Kierkegaard
8 years ago

Yohami– you’re an amusing guy, and I enjoy your blog a lot, but yeah, I do know what I’m talking about. The problem with most guys who need to take “red pills” is they’ve never been fathered. I suspect that may be yours, too. Alpha male behavior is as learned as it is ingrained. And it’s defined, as I said, by making many women happy–and as few as possible unhappy. I’m an old man; my track record speaks for itself. How about yours?

YOHAMI
8 years ago

Rod, Yeah, I had to father myself. And it’s defined, as I said, by making many women happy–and as few as possible unhappy. Really? In a simple word, no. Then we would have to examine what you mean. Is Justin Bieber making more women happy than unhappy? if so you see the female angst as happiness, then I would concur. Or you mean that you’re a pleaser in your personal relationships? are you counting cheating on your wife as making her happy? are you definining happiness in the whole feminine spectrum that also includes drama, jealousy, etc? or are you… Read more »

deti
deti
8 years ago

“What I disagree with is the husband’s insistence that this is all about how attracted she is to him. “ Arid, this has EVERYTHING to do with how attracted she is to her husband. The wife in the OP obviously enjoyed herself on the sex tape. She was attracted to the men having sex with her. A slut doesn’t spread her legs for men she’s not attracted to. If she were attracted to her husband, she’d be willing to have sex with him WITHOUT his pointing out her willingness to sex other men. She’d be enthusiastic about sex with him.… Read more »

Lurkmode
Lurkmode
8 years ago

“She’d be chewing the bedsheets horny for him.” This hyperbole does neither men nor women any favors. Typically, sexual desire in LTRs doesn’t remain at such a level–even when there’s real sexual attraction and desire between partners. “If she’s…resisting certain sex practices with him, she’s not attracted to him.” This, too, is hyperbole. A woman might have been intrigued in the past (even with her husband) by anal or watersports, for example, but lost interest after trying it. Whether she’s not so “willing to have [that kind of] sex with him” isn’t a good barometer of her attraction to him.… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

Regarding the Madonna-Whore issue and general social brainwashing: Calling it a “complex” is a misnomer and pathologizing. Rather, it is a “feature” of male mate choice preference. Sometimes men prefer true “madonnas” – for long-term mating to ensure paternity. Sometimes men prefer “whores” – for short-term mating and thrills. Sometimes they have a “madonna” at home with the kids…and a “whore” on the side for fun. Sometimes they marry a “madonna” and want her to then be their, personal “whore”. None of these arrangements are complex or conflicting. The “complex” occurs for women…for at least one of two reasons: 1)… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

Dr.

switch the sexes and replace “madonna” with beta bux, and “whore” with alpha fux, and you pretty much get the “red pill” education model of the manosphere.)

Wouldnt you switch that in the male side? do women have any kind of pedestalization for the beta virgin male? they extract commitment and resources from betas like alphas extract sex from women, use and dispose, while chasing the alpha beast, similar to men chasing the ideal madonna.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

No Yohami, he’s hit it exactly right. Alpha is the male equivalent of a whore. Beta is the male equivalent of a madonna. They are exactly parallel archetypes. Spot on, Dr. I never thought about it like that before. Although I would really appreciate it if you could give me some grounds for why you believe this to be a biological impulse. I just about wrote you an essay as to why it isn’t, its matricentric-culturally driven, but first I’d rather have you explain your position to me. Perhaps I will see your point, and not bother trying to make… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT, Dr. Alpha is the male equivalent of a whore. Beta is the male equivalent of a madonna. If you measure them from the same perspective, yes, except men and women have opposite perspectives here, thus opposite values. The beta gives commitment and resources for free. The slut gives sex for free. The madonna makes you work for her sex access. The alpha makes you work for his commitment access. Men dream about finding a woman who will be chaste to everyone but himself. Women dream about finding a man who will give her and only her his commitment. I… Read more »

Lurkmode
Lurkmode
8 years ago

Respect, Dr. Jeremy. That has to be one of the most incisive breakdowns in this sphere.

If the diversions, non sequiturs, reframing efforts, and attention mongering here of certain ladies yields the kind of analysis this post and these comments have produced overall, the trade is more than fair.

Kate
Kate
8 years ago

“do women have any kind of pedestalization for the beta virgin male?”

No, which is why it is painful to see men follow women’s sexual strategy expecting success.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Kate

Hah, Kate awesome response. It took me a while to get it…

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

@ Yohami, Here is how I conceptualize it… On one had, there are equivalences: 1) Men prefer “madonnas” for long-term commitments, and “whores” for short-term mating. 2) Women prefer “beta-dads” for long-term commitments, and “alpha-cads” for short-term mating. 3) Both, ideally “want it all” in one person. The male ideal is the “virgin wife who is a slut only for them” – madonna and whore. The female ideal is the alpha stud who settles down and becomes a provider for her – fux and bux. 4) If “both in one” is not an option, then women may get short-term fux… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

Spectacular analysis Dr. J!

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

Except one point of note, Dr. J – more and more, women and women of both “high-value” and “low-value” (I shudder at the use of the terms) are viewing each other as bad long-term mating choices all around.

Perhaps we really are doomed.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

And also, I’m finding more people in my own circle have simply opted out of this ridiculous parody with seemingly impossible goals to meet both people’s needs, and are simply learning that shared intimacy WITHOUT life commitment, shared assets, or baggage – aka the “relationship lite” – provides the best of both worlds.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/21/relationship-lite-describes-a-new-era-of-casual-dating

Sal Ceech
Sal Ceech
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT Thanks for posting that link from the sun.I giggle because T.O is supposedly one of the tougher “fields” for playas in da game.I have not hung out there in quite awhile I can’t offer an opinion to that.Any opinion from the huff post is taken with the same amount of salt the city of Toronto has stocked up for the winter. I can see where the author of the article is coming from bless her heart.The facts of life are these any relationships where the wants,desires are met (fuck the needs) that is mutual and beneficial , then that… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago

Dr. It makes sense from that perspective, I’ll add that each gender strategies show different values Men dont settle down with madonnas, they settle down with whores Women dont settle down with alphas, they settle down with betas More often than not a man fucking a whore will want to keep things that way with no more strings attached More often than not a woman fucking an alpha will pursue a long term relationship with him The beta is the last resource for a woman, if she cannot manage to turn an alpha into her While men are not pushing… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Right, so the point being – we’re all making the wrong choices. Chaste girls should stick with betas, because they will be less likely to become resentful over giving up their most valuable asset to a man-whore, and nice beta provider will be less likely to become resentful about not being appreciated for the effort he puts in to keeping her happy. Sexually sophisticated women should stick with alpha males because they have more in common anyway as far as what they want from each other. But really, get this one through your heads, men – women may want to… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT, Chaste girls should stick with betas On one hand I agree with you, on the other I know this is exchanging high value for low value. nice beta provider will be less likely to become resentful about not being appreciated for the effort he puts in to keeping her happy. True, though she’ll be resentful herself, bored and wondering if she could do better. Sexually sophisticated women I dont know these, only whores. should stick with alpha males Likewise, how do you get alphas into that deal? But really, get this one through your heads, men – women may… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Perhaps the issue, Yohami, is that we are placing false value upon the alpha? He is not really high-value in anyone’s estimation except his own. It mattered when we were living in caves and killing wild game to eat, when survival of the species really was about the strongest…but it hardly matters now, does it?

Does it…?

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT, He is not really high-value in anyone’s estimation except his own. Betas look up to him and do his will. Port alpha behavior to any environment and that man becomes the leader of that environment, from business to anywhere else, while betas are happy at his shadow. Put risks on the table and alpha tackles on them and the trial an error give him swagger and insight, know-how, confidence, and resourcefulness. He’s not afraid to offend and is really “himself” while betas are shy and try to play it polite and need other people to make decisions for them.… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Doesn’t sound too bad when you put it like that Rollo.
Impossible though? Is that what you’re getting at maybe?

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

You’re absolutely right about that Yohami, you bring up a really good observation. “Betas look up to him and do his will. Port alpha behavior to any environment and that man becomes the leader of that environment, from business to anywhere else, while betas are happy at his shadow.” I will take on the job of speaking for all feminists on the planet when I say this is the singular reason for every fault with the entire modern world. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. What alpha does should have been outlawed decades ago by a sane and civilized society. But instead, we… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT,

What alpha does should have been outlawed decades ago by a sane and civilized society.

Right, so you dont want any male leaders, just male followers. Who’s going to organize that society? whos going to set the rules etc..

Women?

Fucking kidding me.

Morpheus
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Yohami,

“Rod” reminds me of “Tom” from old HUS days. “His” description of alpha sounds like a caricature coming from someone’s imagination

You want an alpha male response? I’ll give you an alpha male response.

Who writes this? Certainly not an alpha male.

“Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren’t.”
― Margaret Thatcher

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  Morpheus

Morpheus, Rudy does sound like Tommy.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

No, dude, I’d rather see YOU GUYS being the leaders. I’m sure you’d make much more conscientious decisions than these alpha fucks that don’t care about anything but winning.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Point being, Yohami, our society worships the MOST SELFISH individuals.
How exactly do you think that is going to play out in the world??

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT,

our society worships the MOST SELFISH individuals

People worship what they strive to become, the lives they wish they could live, etc. The people at the top are only mirrors of the people at the bottom, for good and bad.

No, dude, I’d rather see YOU GUYS being the leaders.

Im working on it.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

And no, sex with lots of women happens for alphas because they have social status. Status comes along with being hero-worshipped. Everything about that is fucked.

Jeremy
8 years ago

Aristippus *** This is a delusion that too many men share. That when a woman is having sex with you, she’s somehow doing you a favor. Women enjoy sex, or at least most women that are sexually healthy do. That’s how Nature made them. If this weren’t true, the species would have died out before it even had a chance to get started. Don’t read other things into what I wrote. I said that the gift of a woman’s body (virginity) in a marriage is the greatest gift she can give a man. I stand by that statement. I am… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

But that doesn’t mean I want said dominant bed-partner to be my husband Rollo. It’d take a pretty special man to fill those shoes, you don’t get that highly coveted position by being good in bed. Too easy!

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Well Kate? I’m pretty satisfied with mine… how about you?

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

Not disagreeing with you Jeremy, but Aristippus is correct in saying that too many men share the delusion that women having sex with them is a favor that they don’t enjoy. Unfortunately, a lot of women also believe this.

Ron
Ron
8 years ago

You can bet that the little girl is not his. Want to see the woman explode, as for a paternity test.

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

But that doesn’t mean I want said dominant bed-partner to be my husband Rollo. It’d take a pretty special man to fill those shoes, you don’t get that highly coveted position by being good in bed. Too easy! Likewise…men don’t want said “sexually sophisticated” bed-partners to be their wives. It takes a pretty special woman to fill those shoes. You don’t get that highly coveted position by being “sophisticated”. Too easy! If a woman wants commitment from a high value man (fux and bux) in one package – then it is only fair if she lives up to his ideal… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

You misunderstand me entirely Rollo. There is nothing I like about alpha males. Nothing. There are many types of dominant males in the spectrum, you are limiting your choices to two, on the assumption that everyone wants to be alpha. Honestly, I pray to GOD that isn’t true, or this world really is going to the dogs.

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT, Im pretty sure your conception of Alpha is pretty narrow, probably a mix of a narcissist and a douchebag. While these personalities can have Alpha, that’s not where the story ends nor where it starts. Alpha is the leader / man in charge / a voice who doesnt need to be externally validated to have weight, and I could go on – a bunch of stuff every man should strive to. So we’re not talking just the Mike from the Jersey Shore kind. I’ll add that the women flocking around that douchebag type are also narcissists and douchebags themselves,… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Ya I totally get that, in principle Yohami, but with hero-worship, fandom, attention and adulation heaped upon him for basically no reason, even the brightest star Alpha will become a douchebag narcissist eventually.

Gamma males… now thats where its at. Mmmm.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

Well for sure, Dr. J, but that goes back to our earlier conversation, and the content of Rollo’s article. Relationships do NOT always have to be about sacrificing one need in order to get another met. It doesn’t disadvantage anyone in the relationship if one person has it all, provided the person they have married is also getting that kind of deal. But its impossible for anyone to get that benefit if they aren’t being honest about their wants, and expecting that they get met. Wouldn’t you agree? Betadad here never at one time in this article said he wanted… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago

LT, sure, tell women they should not worship high status.

It just turns out its all they care about.

Matthew King
8 years ago

YOHAMI, we are getting into the weeds now, so I will just say I appreciated your smart pushback. It is pointless to revisit why I thought a certain way about what I think you thought, particularly since it eventually boils down to a communication issue. Most of our disagreement is about the meaning of your statement: Any depravity she has in herself will be maximized by her SMV. … which is not terribly clear. I didn’t “strawman” it, I took a stab at interpreting it consistent with the original post. I just wanted to emphasize the fallacy of these reports… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  Matthew King

Matthew,

Did he sit down to watch Tango & Cash and got surprised what DVD was in its box?

Best christmas gift ever.

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

Relationships do NOT always have to be about sacrificing one need in order to get another met. That depends… On the the very valuable can “have it all”, and make it a fair trade. A guy who is not rich and handsome has to make some tradeoffs. He can have a beautiful wife, a super faithful one – or a mediocre-looking kinda-chaste one. He is not getting a supermodel as a dedicated love-slave. The same for a woman who is not domestically-inclined and beautiful. Richard Gere in Pretty Woman is not coming in the limo. She’s going have to make… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

Dr J, I have much to say in response, but I’m about to enter the gym so it’ll have to wait til later

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

Dr. J, good stuff.

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

All this jargon is giving me a headache… THAT is why I resort back to biology – because any layer above it begins to obfuscate the issue. So, let’s get rid of all the dads, cads, sluts, and sophistication for a minute… From a biological standpoint, women want resources and good genetics from a man – to help her and her children survive. Thus, the man who has “survival power”, is more alpha. If he has less survival power…or squanders it…he is beta. Men, however, want fidelity and good genetics from women – to help ensure he has healthy children,… Read more »

New Yorker
New Yorker
8 years ago

@LT How do you “outlaw” alphas? The people who write the laws are alpha. As are many of those who enforce it. It is just natural that the most assertive and aggressive rise to the top. Where nature is “unfair” to women is that the apex alpha sits at the top of the sexual food chain. An apex alpha is superior to the apex female, because he can extend his clock for MUCH, MUCH longer. His biological clock is practically nonexistent. He lives in his own world, answering only to himself. While the biological/evolutionary side of women will always prefer… Read more »

Jeremy
8 years ago

@livingtree2013

Not disagreeing with you Jeremy, but Aristippus is correct in saying that too many men share the delusion that women having sex with them is a favor that they don’t enjoy. Unfortunately, a lot of women also believe this.

His statement isn’t wrong, it’s just non-sequitur, it has nothing to do with what I was saying.

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

@ livingtree2013 As much as I have enjoyed this debate, I must redirect the bulk of my energies to other outlets. It sounds like you are a busy woman as well. Thus, I will save us the time of another potential go-around and offer some framework to make our future conversations more productive. I believe I have made myself quite clear on what constitutes a fair trade. I have already explained and defended this foundation from many angles in this discussion. Before that, I have defended it for many years, in all manner of academic and popular crowds – against… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Jeremy

Dr, 2) We can decide that what you want, either intellectually or emotionally, differs from this general definition of fair and balanced. Then we could talk about potential reasons for artificially modifying the system to such imbalance. However, this might also diverge from the goal of self-awareness and authenticity (for either men or women), because it may require external manipulation to maintain such an arrangement. Funny as hell. Agreed, society cant be pushed away from the biological drives while retaining its authenticity. What they argue is that the biological drives are a thing of the past. Like they didnt have… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Nah I only said that biological need has been overridden by alpha status-needs, which are social. The biological are still there, just subverted in favor of more shallow ‘needs’. All I mean by this is that I’m not sure we’re in full agreement which needs are biological and which are social. I don’t think we’ll come to resolution on it in this forum though. Anyway… Yes, I agree Dr, this conversation is feeling spent. I do subscribe to #1, but I’m certain that all men do not have the same priorites. Nor do all women. That’s what makes life so… Read more »

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

@Dr.J LT wants fried ice. Plain and simple. She wants everybody to happy but only on her ideological terms. If you deviate from being the program you are in need of reeducation so that you can be happy again and work to support the system. It’s a fantasy. However even this kind of wishful thinking is rooted in her hindbrain. Women are supposed to demand more and more until they are shot down. That’s how they survived through the eons of time. So of course, feminist thinking which is rooted in achieving feminine paradise on earth would be the ultimate… Read more »

Jeremy
8 years ago

@YOHAMI Funny as hell. Agreed, society cant be pushed away from the biological drives while retaining its authenticity. What they argue is that the biological drives are a thing of the past. Like they didnt have bodies, and like their bodies and chemicals were not the ones engaging in the conversation. This like much of the disconnect on the far left. Environmental damage is defined as anything that “man” does to “mother nature”, completely discounting the fact that humans are part of nature, just like any other mammal is. No one calls the termite mound “environmental destruction”. The earth itself… Read more »

Jeremy
8 years ago

@livingtree2013

… my man would say he values intelligence, independence, and integrity in a woman higher than looks or chastity.

LOL…

If that is really true, then your man, sorry to say, is deceived into believing he wants something other than he truly wants, much as Dr J said.

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

I’ve told pretty girls I only want them for their intelligence and independence. It makes them completely out of base and powerless. And the independence touch frames the casual ride like it was dignifying.

But of course I know smarter fuglies, and more independent fuglies.

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

@ FuriousFerret

That’s your problem Dr.J, you can’t get around this with better education and knowledge.

.

It first must be “understood” with education and knowledge – to know what you really value and what is fair.

Then, it must dealt with on an individual level by amassing power and influence – to get what you want and ensure a fair trade by others.

After that, social structures need realignment, toward more fair and balanced dynamics – using the learned principles of fairness AND the cooperation of individuals with power and influence.

Lurkmode
Lurkmode
8 years ago

“Yes, I agree Dr, this conversation is feeling spent. I do subscribe to #1, but I’m certain that….”

Right on cue, and too predictable.

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

“Nothing to work out here” -yohami (first comment in what has become this venue’s most epic comment frenzy)

“What really worries me is all these people spending their lives online talking about the sexuality of others. Now THAT indicates so many deep seated psychological issues Im even scared to start counting them.” -yohami (somewhere north of 600 comments later)

This deserves a haiku

Pendulums, fulcrums
Within, between, around us
All efforts worthwhile

Dr. Jeremy
8 years ago

@ D-Man & Yohami

Agreed…in haiku.

It’s fun to debate
But better to have real sex
Log off to get off

On that note…it is indeed time for bed. Goodnight!

Muttley
Muttley
8 years ago

What an epic thread. I think the last page has blown a fuse in my head!
Thanks to all contributors.

Anonymous
Anonymous
8 years ago

>She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.

Withholding sex in a relationship is the fastest way to make your man think less of you.

Kate
Kate
8 years ago

It took me a while to figure out what you meant, Rollo. No, that relationship didn’t work out, partly due to differences in philosophy, and partly due to logistics; but, I still believe in purple pill: using red pill knowledge to make blue pill dreams come true. I assume the alphas LT objects to (I can’t keep up with all the comments) are the hardcore kind that may be “attractive” in some weird way, but some women have the good sense to stay away from. Agree its an epic thread. Its great to see people talking so honestly. The reason… Read more »

Sao Feng
Sao Feng
8 years ago

I give up. The “boys” (in LyingTree’s own words) seem to have difficulty walking away from a woman.

LyingTree is spinning plates. She’s the ultimate female PUA stringing boys along.

Just walk away.

Just Saying
Just Saying
8 years ago

The guy is an idiot, first for putting up with her non-sense for years – he should have never married her in the first place, afterwards at every turn she treated him with complete and utter disrespect – he really needs to grow some balls and kick her to the curb and go out and f**k so many women that he doesn’t remember what this lousy b*tch looks like. And that has nothing to do with the video – that is just the nuke to really lay waste to everything he thought his life was based on. Not only is… Read more »

Jeremy
8 years ago

@Sao Feng

I give up. The “boys” (in LyingTree’s own words) seem to have difficulty walking away from a woman.
LyingTree is spinning plates. She’s the ultimate female PUA stringing boys along.
Just walk away.

There is great value in explaining how the world works to idiots. At the very least, you hear yourself speak about what you yourself believe. Hearing yourself repeat basic truths and in-so-doing re-examine your own thoughts on the matter only comes at the expense of morons, and that is a small price to pay for such a valuable exercise.

Scooterpie
Scooterpie
8 years ago

This is the way it really is, it’s more common than most men think. It has become the norm and not the exception. I know at least half a dozen men that have insanely similar stories. I can put them all in a room together and they would swear that they had all married the same woman! The stories and experiences of these men mirror each other too closely to be mere coincidence. It has become the trademark of the liberated woman and her feminine agenda, no one is immune and it’s a vicious circle. You can do better though.… Read more »

Tin Man
8 years ago

The scary thing is…there are Men out there today, married, and they have no idea about any of this. And then there are Men like me, that married with their eyes closed and their fingers in their eyes muttering “She’s not like that, she’s not like that, she’s not like that” — because we fell in love. And it was before all this great knowledge was out there – and we bought in the BIG lie. That lie dies hard and the conditioned response to it. I fight it every day – for me the Red Pill is not a… Read more »

Anon Guy
Anon Guy
8 years ago

This sounds like a terrible situation, but I think it can be saved. – Separate for a while, month or so – Come back – Run Asshole game on her, even being “borderline” abusive (no hitting of course duh) – Run “Dread” game on her, buy new cloths, try to look younger, disappear for a few hours once in a while with vague excuses for your absence – Fuck the shit out of her like a wild animal when you do have sex This should up her attraction for you and she will give you those acts “for real” If… Read more »

strauMan (@strauMan)
8 years ago

The last 3 women I’ve dated had cheating in their pasts. Sad statistics. One was a the quintessential super-hottie that is a train wreck but hard to let go of. The other 2 rationalized their plights…yes gents, don’t forget the hamster. One woman in her 20’s gave me booty calls for awhile and later I found had a fiance’e whom she confessed cheated on with another guy while our relationship was on it’s way out. One woman in her 30’s married very young and ended up hating her husband who she didn’t have anything in common with and would go… Read more »

CheoTheAlwaysHungryShark
CheoTheAlwaysHungryShark
8 years ago

@livingtree2013

“every man” wants a slut for his very own” he means slut while in bed, also you should know when a woman behave as an slut is because she is really attracted to you, therefore she wont be fucking around with every guy she meets. Also she will act as an slut if she finds that you are a person that dont give a shit and wont judge her.

CheoTheAlwaysHungryShark
CheoTheAlwaysHungryShark
8 years ago

@livingtree2013

“every man wants a slut for his very own” he means slut while in bed, also you should know when a woman behave as an slut is because she is really attracted to you, therefore she wont be fucking around with every guy she meets. Also she will act as an slut if she finds that you are a person that dont give a shit and wont judge her.

trackback

[…] is conditioning you to think: “I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a […]

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

I remember her saying “…when I told my husband I kissed another man he just stood their. What a loser. He didn’t even fight for me!”

This gets to the crux of something.

I’ll fight for you honey, but I won’t fight YOU for you.

Tin Man
8 years ago

@Rollo…

So Question: Why do some Men find it to hard to leave? Knowing what they know about their woman, possibly knowing what they know from reading here – it has to go beyond Oneitus – or is it just that. Possibly a follow on post. I’m curious why it seems that a woman can move on and a man has a harder time.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Tin Man

Hey Tin Man, I swore I was done with this thread, but its so darn fascinating!! Anyway, I have a lead for you in answer to your question. I just read an article on Huffpost this weekend talking about a study on the fear of being alone. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/04/fear-of-being-alone-study_n_4387157.html. Unfortunately you can’t just download the original content unless you pay for it, but here’s the link anyway. I’m sure it would be a great read! http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2013-36062-001/ The crux of the study is that there is a correlation between a person’s inability to be alone and their tendency to stay in bad… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
8 years ago

lyingtree2013, the gift that keeps on giving – but not Plain Jane as I previously suspected – wrote in one box: For example, my man would say he values intelligence, independence, and integrity in a woman higher than looks or chastity. Not that he doesnt value them, just that on the priority-list totem pole, he values my character is higher than he values his ego. Since I value those assets higher in myself as well, and since i would never ever want to be with a man who valued my looks over my character, we make a good match. Translation:… Read more »

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

“They suffer the same fate, except usually they wind up pregnant with an abusive alcoholic absentee husband.”

The alcoholic absentee husband that they choose because despite his major degenerate flaws he was the best they could do in terms of getting a man with alpha qualities.

They aren’t good enough for true high value alphas so they settle with a guy with dominant qualities despite his flaws because it’s better than being with a weak beta. Everything you wrote is dependent on this fact.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  FuriousFerret

There may well be something to that, Ferret, but at the core, there is a common theme – male or female –

passivity >> low perceived self-worth >> insecurity >> bad decision making >> bad outcomes.

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

Good catch, Ferret. LT, why in your poinion do these women so often choose to “wind up… with an abusive alcoholic absentee husband”, when, as you said earlier, “get this one through your heads, men – women may want to get with alphas, but few of them really LIKE them”? A guy who has negative-alpha (dark triad) traits, but lacks positive-alpha traits (strength, integrity, leadership) appears to still somehow be preferable to the decent but unremarkable guy who does his best to toe the line that society asks him to. Lots of those guys out there, no need to wind… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  D-Man

D-man, in the case of the woman who “winds up with” an abusive alcoholic husband, it is as Ferret suggested. Low self-worth. They think its all they can get so, scared of being alone as so many are, they wind up targets for the worst sorts of people. Her actual SMV worth is less important here than her own perception of her worth. Insecurity makes them unattractive to higher quality mates. It makes them clingy, desperate, unwilling to speak their mind. It also makes them a target for opportunists. Its really the same problem I have seen far too many… Read more »

Tin Man
8 years ago

@LT… Nope – I can do alone, no problem with that. In fact – logically, I’m so much better off without my (x)wife. I miss my family – and she was part of that. My kids live with her and I get to be a part time dad to them. And now with her being in love with dude – they get the pleasure of his company whether they like or not. And it’s not jealousy either – I went through that one. So like I said, I don’t know what it is and don’t know how many men actually… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  Tin Man

Tin Man, the principle difference between the two scenarios isn’t the frequency. I think the stats indicate that its happening a lot for women and men. The difference is when a beta-male gets kicked to the curb by his bitch of a wife, she takes the kids. When the beta-female gets kicked to the curb by her dick of a husband, he leaves the kids. And in my estimation, whether or not its more or less, the latter is the considerably worse situation for everyone (except dick husband, who probably walked away without paying a dime). Beta female is very… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

So if the premise is that both men and women make foolish choices, the point we are trying to make is: Our society goes out of its way to both warn women against making the wrong choices (demonizes men), and absolve them of accountability (encourages them to claim victim status, big daddy gov will pay for it)… …where in the case of men, our society goes out of its way to discount warnings about women (labels it misogyny), and heaps excess responsibility on them (even if a dude has gone his own way, he still pays for it through a… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  D-Man

Well, you’re probably right about that D-Man. However, I’ve seen my male buddies give up their kids to their horrible ex wives, paying insane amounts of money in support, without even putting up so much as a whimper, they didn’t even TRY because they were already convinced that they stood no chance of winning, so why bother… and by doing so, proved what the wife was saying: see, he doesn’t care! When they start becoming more interested in fairness, the family court says something like “Why didn’t you make an effort for custody??” Like as in, they basically laid down… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  D-Man

But unfortunately, D-Man, all those social warnings don’t seem to be stopping women from making incomprehensibly bad choices, in droves too… I dunno, I don’t get it. I keep reading about this cultural addiction we have to self-esteem, but I’m seeing an awful lot of decisions getting made that indicate the exact opposite. I suspect it may be because there is a dearth of positive-alpha men out there these days, D-Man. So you may be right, some dumbass cracker women think that being desired by bad-alpha is better than being adored by good-beta. I also think these are the kinds… Read more »

YOHAMI
8 years ago
Reply to  livingtree2013

LT, Dman, the answer for that is in three profiles: narcissism, borderline personality and codependency. Look them up. For a while I thought a bunch of behaviors were feminine, then I realized they were N / BPD / CD traits. A lot of betas are CD and a lot of attractive people are N / CD. The abused girlfriend or boyfriend stays in an abusive relationship not because they have low self esteem, but because that’s how they get their self esteem. They see themselves as heros, the abuser is their mission. They need the tragedy and co-create it. Don’t… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Great point Yohami, and quite true. Although I think if you investigate people who are addicted to drama and co-dependency, you will also find low self-esteem traits as well. Which came first? Who knows.

furiousferrett
furiousferrett
8 years ago

@LT You simply don’t get it. Start from the bottom and then work your way to the top. Women want/need dominant high status men to fulfill their biological agenda to provide resources since the top dogs control them. Men want attractive women who look hot which serve as signs of fertility and superior genetics. Every choice sprawls from there. You can’t just say well just don’t choose people with those characteristics because they have x flaw and expect people to follow it. It’s not insecurity or this or that. Those women and men will take the best available option in… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
8 years ago

lyingtree2013 However, I’ve seen my male buddies give up their kids to their horrible ex wives, paying insane amounts of money in support, without even putting up so much as a whimper, they didn’t even TRY because they were already convinced that they stood no chance of winning, so why bother… and by doing so, proved what the wife was saying: see, he doesn’t care! Gee, why would men do that? Maybe because they’ve been brainwashed to serve the Female Imperative? Or maybe because they know more than you do about anti-Family court, an institution created by the usual alliance… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago

Of course you do, Ferret. Its called higher-level reasoning. You will find, if you try it sometime, that you are capable of making more advanced decisions that take into account things the value of other besides your biological urge to inseminate. Most rational men find that they become capable of that in their 30’s….

Hmmm, right around the same time that their SMV starts to spike… I wonder if there is a connection between those two things??

furiousferrett
furiousferrett
8 years ago

“Most rational men find that they become capable of that in their 30′s…. Hmmm, right around the same time that their SMV starts to spike… I wonder if there is a connection between those two things?? ” 30s SMV start to spike only men that take care of themselves which is a small percentage. The men that you are talking about that use your higher-level reasoning bullshit are the betas that are getting their scraps from when the women are kicked off the cock carousel and they are signing their life away for something that other men got for free… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

Unfairness in the system regarding custody/alimony/child support rulings and payments, although clearly also a huge issue, is not what I was getting at above. What I’m saying is: Men who Go Their Own Way, who by all accounts avoid making these poor decisions, who choose not to get married or tie themselves in any way to a woman who is essentially a lifelong socioeconomic ball-and-chain (due to Hypergamy, women rarely, rarely marry men who earn less than them) … these men have more energy to work on their careers, more time to grow their personal wealth… but what happens? They… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  D-Man

Um, ok D-Man, pardon my confusion here. I was raised in an adopted family and my parents loved me very deeply, so I’m not sure I really can truly appreciate the DNA fixation in order to love a child. Explain again to me why that matters? I’ve tried and tried, it makes no sense to me. Children all need to be supported and loved, why does it matter by who? Almost all mammal species on the planet raise offspring communally. I would take the neighbors children in if I thought they were being neglected by their own parents. But that’s… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

By the way, with regards to the “poor choices” that women are making? These poor choices aren’t limited to picking the wrong deadbeat abusive dick as a sperm-donor. No, I think far more commonly, the poor choice that many single mothers have made (have been encouraged and facilitated to make) is to marry a beta, have a kid with him (might not be his), and then kick him out ’cause she ain’t haaappy, doesn’t “have it all”… but continue to rape him for funds with the full weight of the law. While the guy’s heart and spirit are slowly crushed.… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  D-Man

I don’t disagree with your conclusion D-Man, though I think there’s probably cause for debate as to which happens more often. But not here, please, I don’t have the resources available to defend it either way. Another article maybe… 🙂 At any rate, the point of much of my input in this forum is that there are better ways to short the circuit than removing what you want out of the equation altogether. Life is risky, and self-improvement is hard, but if you’re willing to put the effort in to having personal integrity and making better choices, you will potentially… Read more »

Some Guy
Some Guy
8 years ago

If there’s pussy to fuck, and you go for the asshole, you’re not a man. Only faggots want to fuck anyone in the ass. If you get off on ass-to-mouth, you need psychological help.

There, I said it.

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

It’s a visceral thing, LT. Why is DNA important? Well, IT’S IN THE DNA. I applaud those who adopt, including your family, you seem to have turned out well. But let me see… Imagine you’re raped by a stranger, and then forced to carry, birth, and care for the child. In that case, THE CHILD IS STILL 50% YOU. A guy who gets fucked over by his WIFE, who fucks another dude and tricks him into raising and paying for some OTHER GUY’s kid? THAT KID IS 0% HIM. Now, can he love him? Absolutely. Will the kid pick up… Read more »

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  D-Man

OK I totally get you D-Man. And postal is the correct response to both, but tell me really, how much of the DNA-testing negative is the ire resultant from being cheated on (which would be enough to make me hire a hit-man, personally) and how much is from the DNA issue? I can’t help think that the child is taking the heat for what is actually an issue with the wife. Anyway, something about what you just said was intriguing… “the family isn’t 100% harmonious to the fullest satisfaction of the wife. Now she kicks him out, denies him from… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

To make the analogy above more accurate, let’s take the rape part out (since it might constitute a violent act), and imagine that it’s the STATE that is forcing insemination with a stranger’s seed on 2.5% of women… THAT is essentially what is happening to men right now.

livingtree2013
8 years ago
Reply to  D-Man

OK, um, D-Man? Paying for someone else’s child? I earn a six-figure salary. I have no children. I am already paying for other peoples children via my large tax burden. Oddly, I have absolutely no problem with that at all. I’d rather be paying my tax dollars to fund creative forms of discipline to aid people who have no personal integrity, but I don’t expect that’ll happen anytime soon: http://www.policymic.com/articles/28085/john-kerry-says-americans-have-the-right-to-be-stupid-gets-laughed-at-by-a-room-full-of-germans And, yes if my husband had custody of his children, and his bitch of an ex-wife couldn’t be bothered to pay him support, I would also have no issue contributing… Read more »

CheoTheAlwaysHungryShark
CheoTheAlwaysHungryShark
8 years ago

@Some Guy
the only who is in the faggot borderline are you, women are crazy if you don’t fuck her ass she will look for someone else to do it.

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

Aaaaactually, now that I think about it, if we really want to see the female claws come out, let’s imagine a situation where the Modern Independent (TM) Woman is forced by the state to pay for some other woman’s child… some SPECIFIC OTHER BITCH’s child.

OOOOOhhohohohio boy, would the fireworks start then….

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

Well LT, you’re a saint. I don’t meant that sarcastically. Please get other women to listen to you. “Paying for someone else’s child? I earn a six-figure salary. I have no children. I am already paying for other peoples children via my large tax burden. Oddly, I have absolutely no problem with that at all.” What some people (especially men) have difficulty with (and I include myself in this) is the thought of a SPECIFIC person out there – someone you MAY know, but you don’t know WHO it is – some competitor is getting a free ride on your… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago

And then, to top it all off, this smirking Hugo guy comes along with his six chinchillas and tries to tell you that you really shouldn’t be upset. Women have it so much harder, think of her burden hiding the truth all this time. He tells you the kid will be better off never knowing who he is.

Come on

D-Man
D-Man
8 years ago
Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago

My friend, If I were in your shoes, (but I’m not keep that in mind) I would leave for the fact that for years she lied to you about a major subject. Claiming herself a very innocent person, to a porn whore? I couldn’t deal with the lie, she would lose all my trust.

Rob
Rob
8 years ago

Read this from one of LT’s posts: “…And please, I hope that you don’t think that I meant to exonerate this woman from her fault. That was never my intention. The lie was unfair, and I would never back up a woman who did that. I just always make a point to think about the possible reasons for people’s behavior, it allows for me to have both empathy and objectivity, not to justify it, but to understand it and learn from it. (I can hear the scoffing and eye rolling from here).” Reading LT’s first few posts, she didn’t have… Read more »

Just Saying
Just Saying
8 years ago

If you are interested – there was a follow up: http://redditlog.com/snapshots/35036

Looks like he grew a pair and started divorce proceedings – although there was much shaming from the women. I suspect this story touched a little too close to home for many women, who are lying, or have lied to their Beta Bucks provider…

Sarah
Sarah
8 years ago

I’m a woman, and I’m surprised by the nature of opinions on women I’ve seen here. I’m in love with my lover, and can tell he’s in love with me, so found this page from a search on how men feel love. I believe that men’s emotions are more steadfast and more slow to develop than most women’s, but most of you seem to think women are vapid villainesses. It’s quite depressing to think that apparently everyone is terrified of being taken advantage of. Come on, fundamentally woman wants to feel safe and loved, and a man wants to feel… Read more »

Andy G
Andy G
8 years ago

This is just a thought, but why do people on this forum (women specifically) who aren’t interested in men appear to be standing up for a woman who has caused her man to leave him. I don’t follow baseball, so I really don’t care about any on-field decisions that are made in a game between two teams, so why should women who claim to not want relationships with men care so much about what men should/shouldn’t do in certain circumstances and, more to the point, need any sort of ‘women’s logic’ justification to accept that a man felt hurt and… Read more »

Sal Ceech
Sal Ceech
8 years ago
Reply to  Andy G

Andy … Props bro on that scenario. Very well done.

CheoTheAlwaysHungryShark
CheoTheAlwaysHungryShark
8 years ago

@Sarah,
Please go to another place to write all that crap.
Everybody here knows that women are lie machines and the most selfish creature on earth. You just need to look what you wrote, full of lies and selfishness.

Seraph
Seraph
8 years ago

GREAT POST. I did not have the time to read through all these posts, so I don’t know if someone else pointed this out, but having read this: “He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was… Read more »

AKA
AKA
8 years ago

@Andy G: Good story.

@Sara: All you need to know is that women initiate somewhere between 65-75% of all divorces. Let’s call it 2/3. So if you don’t want to call them vultures what adjectives would you use? 2/3’s Sarah. 2/3’s.

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