Madonnas and Whores

Madonna-Whore

It appears that for whatever reason the manosphere topic du jour of last week has turned some fresh light on the debate regarding the validity of the concept of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks. In between reposting HuffPo articles and any pop-psychology pablum that agrees with her ego-investments, Aunt Giggles seems to have decided to reject reality and replace it with her own (you expected something else?), more comforting, fantasies she finds catharsis in. If readers want to sift through the pop-up ads and fem.mgid links to get the gist of her ‘reasons’ why she believes AFBB is some viral manosphere myth, feel free to head over to her Hooking Up Betas echo chamber and brush up on it.

If you want the short version it’s basically this; in her 5 years of blogging all of the 7 or 8 unmoderated commenters she consistently allows to reinforce her own perspectives have told her that Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks is bunk. So there you have it, myth busted! This is kind of surprising since the concept of Hypergamy she so reluctantly conceded to essentially  contradicts this, but as with all things Giggles, she was against it before she was for it before she was against it again….or, whatever the sponsors want her to be for.

All digs aside the epic comment thread from last week’s post went in all manner of direction, but it was fairly enlightening with regard to the level of vitriol women have for Alphas. You see when it comes down to it, Alpha Men are the ones women love to hate. Poor Betas only deserve a passing mention; just enough “we love ya nice guys” so as not to raise suspicions that they might be getting a raw deal for their provisioning and good behavior right at the last moment when women need it the most.

It’s the Alpha that the widows pine for. It’s the Alpha who’s the culprit for all the feminine imperative’s woes. It’s that damn Alpha who gives her the tingles, but so frustratingly won’t submit commit to her imperatives – why can’t they just play nice, like a good Beta will? It’s the Alpha that women write songs for.

The Process

During last week’s comment thread Dr. J reminded me of the process of breaking down a behavioral dynamic. The distilled version of that process is as follows:

Biological —> Psychological —> Sociological.

This is a valuable progression to remember when it comes to understanding whys  of red pill dynamics. When there’s a breakdown in understanding a particular dynamic, or even a willful refusal to understand it, at some stage there is a failure to make the connection between these realms.

Just for sake of a neutral illustration here lets take the dynamic of hunger. Biologically we get hungry, our bodies need nurishment, and thanks to our evolved genetics, and the scarcity of food in our evolutionary past, we tend to prefer certain types of energy rich food over others. Psychologically we might develop the conviction to train ourselves to eat right and exercise, or we might develop various personal rationalizations for why we’re OK with being fat . Sociologically this dynamic extends into the obesity epidemic society is now facing, and depending upon the predominance of a particular individualized psychology the social manifestation may be a Fat Acceptance movement or a cultural obsession with physical fitness.

Granted, this is a simplistic illustration which becomes more complex as more dynamics are layered upon others – For instance both Fat Acceptance and physical fitness psychology are also rooted in the capacity to optimize hypergamy for women (a biological imperative) as well as having implications and purposes for other social conventions.

If there is a problem in really understanding a red pill truth, if there is a resistance (willful or otherwise) to that understanding, or even if there is a some doubt about a social dynamic that needs testing to explain, there is usually either a denial of, or a lack of connection to, a realm in this progression. With regard to blue pill critics and those with ego-investments in their mindset, denying or downplaying the importance of certain aspects of these realms is necessary to protect those mindsets. Sometimes one realm may be discounted altogether in order to maintain an ego-investment.

So it’s with this progression in mind that we have to really deconstruct the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks dynamic, as well as it’s male-specific counterpart the Madonna / Whore dynamic.

Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks

From a biologically imperative starting point the AFBB dynamic is easily provable in women’s pluralistic sexual strategy. If Aunt Giggles or any other doubter needs evidence of the biological motivators of AFBB, look no further than the provable behavioral prompts of women’s menstrual cycle. I covered the more Game-tactical aspects of this in Your Friend Menstruation, but study after study prove that women’s behaviors, sexual appetites and mate preference selections coincide with the particular ovulatory phase a woman happens to be in and how best to satisfy it at that stage.

As a feminine social directive, Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks, is the social extension of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy. This strategy is literally encoded into women’s neurological firmware and endocrine systems. This ovulatory influence in mate preference that describes this pluralism is well documented, as are other manifestations such as:

Changes in women’s feelings about their romantic relationships across the ovulatory cycle

Body odor attractiveness as a cue of impending ovulation in women

Ovulatory Shifts in Women’s Attractions to Primary Partners and Other Men

Females Avoiding Fathers When Fertile

Menstrual Cycle Shifts in Women’s Preferences for Masculinity

Vocal cues of ovulation signaling

Changes in Women’s Choice of Dress Across the Ovulatory Cycle

Ovulatory shifts in ornamentation

In a biological realm, there is little doubt that a directive towards a sexually pluralistic sexual strategy would be the most pragmatic reason for these behavioral manifestations. The female biological condition prompts sexual pluralism, which further prompts the social condition of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks (essentially cuckoldry) as the most practical solution to the problem that optimized Hypergamy presents in finding a male who best embodies the ideal of both. Women’s ovulatory cycle motivates for the sexual optimization of the Alpha, as well as the provisioning security / parental investment optimization that (usually, not exclusively) the Beta represents.

Madonnas and Whores

There is a counterpart to this dynamic in Men – the Madonna / Whore dynamic. You might know this dynamic as the Madonna/Whore “Complex” since feminine-primary society likes to repeat the term in an effort to pathologize the male analogy of optimizing his own sexual strategy. This marginalization is of course to be expected if women’s sexual strategy and hypergamic selectivity is to be socially ensured.

Again, Dr. J offers us a good breakdown of the comparison of sexual strategies:

Here is how I conceptualize it… On one hand, there are equivalences:

1) Men prefer “madonnas” for long-term commitments, and “whores” for short-term mating.

2) Women prefer “beta-dads” for long-term commitments, and “alpha-cads” for short-term mating.

3) Both, ideally “want it all” in one person. The male ideal is the “virgin wife who is a slut only for them” – madonna and whore. The female ideal is the alpha stud who settles down and becomes a provider for her – fux and bux.

4) If “both in one” is not an option, then women may get short-term fux from an alpha cad, and long-term commitment bux from a beta dad – alpha fux and beta bux (AFBB). Similarly, men may have a primary, virginal wife to assure paternity, then a “slut on the side” for kicks – virgin validation and slut excitation (VVSE).

Thus, on this level of analysis madonna = beta (long-term commitment) and whore = alpha (short-term mating).

Because the sexes also complement each other, there is also some mirroring. They are not mutually exclusive.

Thus:

A) Male’s are primarily rated for their provisioning value, women for their sexual value, in long-term commitment.

B) Either are perceived to be low-worth when they give away that primary value too quickly.

C) Thus, “virgins” and “alphas” are often perceived as high value, while “sluts” and “betas” are often perceived as low value.

This creates a conflict with the four points above when:

I) High value virgins and alphas match up together by similar value, only to find that their mating goals may not line up. Sometimes they commit and have sex, which means they both “get it all”. Other times, they just have sex – which is an unfair trade for the virgin. If she is “smart” she requires commitment for sex – but the “blue pill” usually brainwashes her away from that.

II) Low value whores and betas match up based on value too, only to find their mating goals in conflict as well. Sometimes they also commit and have sex, which means they both “get the best they can”. Other times, they just commit – which is an unfair trade for the beta. If he is “smart” he requires sex for commitment – but the “blue pill” usually brainwashes him away from that.

In my post The Threat I wrote:

Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism. Women will shit test men as autonomously and subconsciously as a men will stare at a woman’s big boobs. They cannot help it, and often enough, just like men staring at a nice rack or a great ass, even when they’re aware of doing it they’ll still do it. Men want to verify sexual availability to the same degree women want to verify a masculine dominance / confidence.

As with AFFB you have to begin in the biological realm to understand men’s sexual strategy and move through the psychological to get to the social. The Madonna / Whore dynamic isn’t too hard to understand when you consider men’s sexual imperative stimulated by the realities of 12.5 times the amount of testosterone women experience. A while back on Sunshine Mary’s blog the topic was an effort in trying to understand (more like verify the fact) that men sexually evaluate a woman within the first glance of a woman. From an intersocial standpoint this fact (dubiously) offends women in that it smacks of some learned (psychological/sociological) tendency to objectify women. However the biological fact is that all men objectify women because it is how our neural firmware evolved. The parts of men’s brains involved with problem solving and tool use are stimulated when we see sexually available women.

Male Hypergamy

I’m often asked if I think there is a male parallel to feminine Hypergamy. If there is it’s the want to optimize a balance in the ideal monogamous wife, supportive mother for his children, and a woman he (mistakenly) believes has the capacity to love him as he believes a woman could, and the dirty, porn star who represents unlimited access to unlimited sexuality. Lets be clear this want for masculine hypergamy doesn’t have anything near the biological impetus that women’s physicality prompts them to – we simply don’t have the same plumbing or firmware – and rather his hypergamy is rooted in a rational frustration of trying to balance sexual availability with his potential for investing himself emotionally in a woman.

It’s maybe not so ironic that the same fem-centric critics who so adamantly want to avoid the inconvenient aspects of the biological realm by focusing exclusively on the psychological or social in order to discredit the feminine AFBB / Sexual Pluralism, are the same critics who’ll gleefully endorse the Madonna / Whore “complex” in men because it agrees with their ego-investments and further reinforces the Feminine Imperative as the socially dominant one.

Before I finish up here I wanted to add my take on the husband of the Whore/Prude wife from last week’s post. A lot of guys (and one convenient feminist) said he should’ve seen it coming, or he never should’ve signed on for marrying a woman who didn’t have a genuine desire to fuck him like the secret porn star she used to be. In a perfect world where we have absolute clarity and foresight is 20/20 that maybe, but if I had to speculate, my guess is that he was trying to do what he thought and had been conditioned to think was right. He married a Madonna, and very likely an attractive one he thought he could do no better by, in the hopes she would “come around” and be at least a satisfactory whore for him alone.

How many guys would you advise marry even a borderline slut in the hopes that she’d “come around” to being a great wife and mother? The majority of men are varying degrees of Betas,pre-whipped by the feminine imperative for half a lifetime to eventually be the de facto cuckold for women’s sexual priorities at just the right time. From a red pill perspective we can say he should’ve seen the signs, but we’re dealing with a blue pill man plugged into the Matrix trying to balance the Madonna / Whore dynamic with blinders on.

Late Edit: For further analysis, linked here is the most recent followup reddit post of the (very real) husband of porn tape wife from last week’s post.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sal Ceech
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Sal Ceech
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Good Morning Rollo and Merry Christmas to you and your family

I’ll post here for the start of another epic thread and look forward to how close to the Madonna-esgue/Whor-ish qualities to look for in the “elusive unicorn” .As I’ve said so before ..if I do believe I find her , I’ll fork out the counsel rate to get the all clear from you before a marriage.

donalgraeme
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Top notch post as always Rollo. I) High value virgins and alphas match up together by similar value, only to find that their mating goals may not line up. Sometimes they commit and have sex, which means they both “get it all”. Other times, they just have sex – which is an unfair trade for the virgin. If she is “smart” she requires commitment for sex – but the “blue pill” usually brainwashes her away from that. II) Low value whores and betas match up based on value too, only to find their mating goals in conflict as well. Sometimes… Read more »

LiveFearless
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This is Brilliant: “The majority of men are varying degrees of Betas,pre-whipped by the feminine imperative for half a lifetime to eventually be the de facto cuckold for women’s sexual priorities at just the right time.” Don’t be that guy. RM is the fast track out of that plight in the programmed “matrix”

Tilikum
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what fascinates me is how invested in blue pill culture the vast majority of men truly are. and they are loath to let go of their delusions. truth is an anathema.

YOHAMI
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Good stuff. I guess HUS continues to shame alpha in an effort that alphas want to become more beta since that’s where the pussy is. She must be wondering why its not working, and the only guys agreeing to become more beta are plenty already.

eris
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A form of male “Hypergamy” does exist in the sense of the realization of “male optimal sexual strategy”. Compared to ancient societies where huge numbers of men didn’t get to mate the fact that nowadays most men in most societies have the opportunity to pair bond, effectively thwarting female Hypergamy to some extent, could be seen as a triumph of the masculine ability to engineer a practical solution to a problem – in this case to optimize his access to reproductive resources. The AFBB phenomenon is Hypergamy’s perpetual struggle against male ingenuity to achieve its goal-state of many women mating… Read more »

CrisisEraDynamo
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Rollo, what do you make of things like this? Though this relates to curing paralysis, it seems that neural rewording is just around the corner, and all this stuff about hardwired brains will be both confirmed and obsoleted.

Gotta look to the future, you know. Especially when it’s around the corner.

earl
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Two things…a question and a statement. Does it up the value of a man…if what he seeks is a virgin for marriage, instead of any old used slut? If he can’t get that…then he prefers staying single and GHOW. (That would be my thinking with my red pill awareness..as opposed to my beta past where I would take any female attention) …and I’d have to agree with the assessment of the dude from last week’s rantings. Sure most of us guys round the ‘sphere know NOW what to do…but if I was in his shoes back when I was 25,… Read more »

To.the.End
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Great post Fem-centrism run amoc, they’re praised and we’re shamed, they’re exalted and we’re devalued. It’s so blatant how every uniquely male trait is pathologized for the sake of a feminine primary reality. It’s infuriating to think as men we’re directly and indirectly taught to be little cuckold bitches in a game rigged by women and then incessantly shamed when we go against the grain. The more we’re made aware the more we may witness how uncaring selfish and indifferent women are towards males while we’re taught to care. They view our gender as stock to be used solely to… Read more »

Tom
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One criticism against the alpha fucks beta bucks meme has been that the rate of children growing up with the wrong father is not higher than around 5% or maybe even a bit lower. This is said to be a low number and so it is not central to women’s strategy. Firstly, I don`t think that is a low number at all. Secondly, it leaves out how many men raise children they KNOW are not their own as step fathers. It is guaranteed to be a solid pattern that men raising other mens children are on average much more beta… Read more »

To.the.End
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You’re right Tom, the rate would swing to around 70% or higher definitely! I think we should not place too much faith in statistics such as the 5% – who knows how much these statistics could have been skewed and under which conditions they were taken; or worse, if women were involved in giving them given the rate at which women lie. It may be that a lot of women don’t take the risk of cuckolding their husbands and getting pregnant by alphas during their fertile phase due to the risk of her being found out and losing the betas… Read more »

deti
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The entire conflict about AFBB, and Susan Walsh’s denial of it based on a few of her groupies saying “I’m not like that”, is simply a refusal to accept that men have interests and objectives they want to achieve from mating, sex, and marriage. It’s the same old thing – relationship issues, sex advice and marriage advice are almost always viewed with an eye to what the woman wants, what benefits her, what she wants, needs, and desires. There are only passing reference to HIS wants, needs and desires. And one can only conclude that most women simply don’t think… Read more »

eris
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Interestingly, the one thing that both a man’s Game and a woman’s hypergamy have in common is that both depend heavily on the majority of men not knowing that it exists in order to be successful.

Bob Wallace
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“Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism.”

Please identify the genes involved.

[Men and women’s brains are wired differently. Enjoy.]

hoellenhund2
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“I’m often asked if I think there is a male parallel to feminine Hypergamy.”

I’d say the parallel is that male resources are spread very unevenly among women. I’m sure a small minority of women are hogging the majority of male resources, especially material ones.

hoellenhund2
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“One criticism against the alpha fucks beta bucks meme has been that the rate of children growing up with the wrong father is not higher than around 5% or maybe even a bit lower.”

Even if that rate is that low, which I’m sure it isn’t, you need to take into account the massive transfer of resources, mostly from beta male taxpayers to single mothers and their thugspawn, that is the norm in all Western societies. It’s legally sanctioned and enforced cuckoldry on a huge scale.

8to12
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…it was fairly enlightening with regard to the level of vitriol women have for Alphas. You see when it comes down to it, Alpha Men are the ones women love to hate. Poor Betas only deserve a passing mention; just enough “we love ya nice guys” so as not to raise suspicions that they might be getting a raw deal for their provisioning and good behavior right at the last moment when women need it the most. “Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.”… Read more »

Just Saying
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Excellent post. I always tell guys to think of a woman who is a virgin has a dollar value of $100, after she loses her virginity she has a value of about $10, after she has her second lover her value drops to $1 – decrease by 90% thereafter – from the perspective of a man looking for a marriageable female (i.e., one you could actually trust to ensure paternity – a woman knows she is the mother, the man takes it on faith). That trustworthiness is just like the Federal Government – now in that world if you have… Read more »

BuenaVista
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One of the unpleasant ironies of female preferences and behaviors, when they are in a monogamous situation, is their general disinterest in the whole “bad girls with pearls” model (lady in public, lover in private). Of course, if a woman values her man and his fidelity, and understands his sexuality, she knows he probably prefers a bad girl with pearls, because he requires variety and strange, when the lights are low. I think it’s quite ominous, really, because women are very strident about demanding sexual fidelity from a man. But a woman committing herself to being a true sexual partner… Read more »

Vektor
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An important distinction to make between AFBB and VVSE is the context of the children. Men are not seeking to conceive children with sluts. When they do seek children with a ‘madonna’ female, it is generally within the context of a functional marriage. Women pursuing a AFBB strategy are having children in a relationship(s) (maybe marriage, maybe not), then voluntarily or involuntarily destroying that relationship(s), then seeking an arrangement motivated primarily by financial need. The VVSE strategy is inherently better for the children. AFBB is unstable and dysfunctional. I would also view the AFBB strategy as an form of soft… Read more »

tanner
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Rollo, I’m curious… so where did you fit into the picture with your wife? I remember you saying she chose you over a doctor and you didn’t have two nickels to rub together at the time…

Fred Flange, PsyChoD.
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Want to be sure I have read this correctly: Alphas are the men women “love to hate.” Yet they pine for them, lust for them, are mad because they can’t force committment from them. Whereas betas are the men the former carousel riding women just hate, period.* Right?

*or are bored by, tolerate, leave when “unhaaaapy”, close eyes and think of England whilst schtupping once a month

Jeremy
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However the biological fact is that all men objectify women because it is how our neural firmware evolved. The parts of men’s brains involved with problem solving and tool use are stimulated when we see sexually available women. To borrow from one of Deti’s more recent guest posts on another manosphere blog, Men are wired to seek to “win”. Solving a physical problem with the proper tool is “winning”. Building a new machine to help with a job is “winning”. Figuring out how to fix something you haven’t fixed before is “winning”. Finding a woman who fits your ideal of… Read more »

Tin Man
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As a recovering Beta-Husband, with very clear and perfect 20/20 vision from my past — there isn’t anything explicit or implied within the AFBB strategy that I don’t agree with. I fucked the slut, knew she was a slut, our relationship started as a ONS. So the needle was point more to alpha the night I met her…BUT and this is important…she captured a beta in alpha clothing that night – even if it took me half the marriage to get there. Regardless of how you start out, if you don’t figure out how to be Red Pill aware in… Read more »

Tin Man
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Besides, if I’m completely honest with myself, she’s very perceptive and recognized what I was from the very beginning. She told me that the night we met, she had an internal battle – me or the bartender.

Jibola
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On a much lighter note, when I think of the title, I don’t think of Madonna the virgin but the eponymous Madonna. So in my head it’s (Hagard old, should be expired) Whores and Whores.

Morpheus
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Good stuff. I guess HUS continues to shame alpha in an effort that alphas want to become more beta since that’s where the pussy is. She must be wondering why its not working, and the only guys agreeing to become more beta are plenty already. Yohami, I still peruse the comments for entertainment value. The amount of sheer absurdity that the herd reinforces for each other truly is breathtaking. One of the proverbs is Iron Sharpens Iron. I think men perform this role largely for each other. Some guy is going to step up and say “Hey bro, that’s bullshit”.… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Tin Man …and you live in the Blue Pill world – and buy into the male version of the Disney fantasy – you will become the Great American Beta Husband So, the Disney fantasy of masculine hasn’t always been the utilitarian rescuer of princesses. The animated films were certainly like that, but not all Disney films were like that. In fact pre-2nd wave feminism, there were a significant number of non-animated Disney films that showed some true masculine traits. Interestingly enough, ALL of the animated films had mostly feminine fantasy. Just look at the list: This list of 1950s Disney… Read more »

To.the.End
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What’s society gonna change into when there’s a critical mass of Red Pill men? What shit is the FemImp gonna pull out of its ass to get that under control?

derthal
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This post lit another bulb in my head… Thanks.

hoellenhund2
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“Want to be sure I have read this correctly: Alphas are the men women “love to hate.” Yet they pine for them, lust for them, are mad because they can’t force committment from them. Whereas betas are the men the former carousel riding women just hate, period.* Right?”

I’d say only alphas elicit strong emotional responses from women, whether it’s hate or anything else. Betas never do. Gammas are different, because they are capable of eliciting boundless revulsion.

Just Saying
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“she captured a beta in alpha clothing that night” Women try to convert an Alpha into a Beta provider all the time, it is why they work so hard to change men, then if they succeed get bored and look for another alpha for excitement. I learned that long ago from observation – and I also learned how common it is for women to pretend they are the Madonna with a guy they have ear-marked as a BB’s position, and work out their randiness with the alpha. Heck, I’ve seen it from both sides – as that beta when I… Read more »

eon
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Bob Wallace said: Please identify the genes involved, [in] “Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism.” In the first place, demanding an explication of low-level underlying mechanisms as a prerequisite to making high-level sociological observations is absurd. In the second place, individual genes as the arbiters of everything is … like … so yesterday. You really need to keep up with the times, if you want to be successful as a destructive pompous ass*. Now run along and go read this: The sequences of nucleic acids form fractal structures, which can be read in different ways, on… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Bob Wallace

Please identify the genes involved.

This is like asking for a proof that gravity exists by demanding photographs of the sub-atomic particles responsible.

earl
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“Please identify the genes involved, [in] “Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism.”

The other X chromosome.

D-Man
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Jeremy, that’s uncanny, thanks for posting. Makes me think of “The Century of the Self”. “w.r.t. the influence that animation has on kids, you have to wonder if there wasn’t some actual design” I’m convinced that nothing (that appears on the web, a TV screen, theatre, advert, etc.) is by accident or arbitrary. All content is engineered. It is all by design. Take a good zoom out and look at what images and themes are currently being thrust at our children and young adults. What effects do they have on young minds? Under whose approval and at whose behest are… Read more »

earl
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“I would argue that it’s only physical slaughter we’re doing less of. The war of minds is ongoing.”

A line from Fight Club sums it up…

Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives.

LiveFearless
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@Dr. Jeremy, Has “some actual design” existed in The Magic of Animation? Good question. http://wp.me/P3P5mL-ak

D-Man
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“What’s society gonna change into when there’s a critical mass of Red Pill men? What shit is the FemImp gonna pull out of its ass to get that under control?”

If I had to take a stab at the current state of the mythical pendulum, I’d say it’s still swinging away from the plumb-line. It may be slowing, but it hasn’t reversed direction.

Tin Man
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@Just Saying… Well, I was prime for the picking….32, my own business, making money hand over fist, confident in my ability….I don’t believe I bought anyone other than my sister and my friend a drink that night – including my soon to be wife (just didn’t know that at the time). She was there with 3 of her friends, and at least two hit on me – I shot them down and stuck with her. So, like I said – I was more alpha THAT night – and throughout the first few years of our marriage. BUT, it’s the slow… Read more »

Fred Flange, PsyChoD.
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Thanks gentlemen (Rollo, hoellenhund2) for the clarifications. All that makes sense; my question was prompted by the really really vitriolic nastiness from women commentators to, say, the NiceGuys of OK Cupid, or the uber-beta dad simp blogger who broke the Fight Club rule and admitted that, good non-cis dad that he was, he lusted after other women in his heart, loins, spleen, Isles of Langerhans etc. and got threats of physical harm (in New York Magazine!) that men would be Guantanamo’d for making.

D-Man
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Yeah Tin Man, the slide is so insidious, we have to constantly lean against it. I suspect oxytocin might be involved. I liked a previous commenter’s analogy that stuff like the RM here is our daily vitamin.

BTW, neat job Rollo and Dr. J, dovetailing the concepts.

I would offer to add that AFBB is, essentially, polyandry, even if they’d never cop to it while they demonize polygamy…

Jeremy
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Hilarious. Company proxy-policy blocks HUS from here as it is classified as “Adult”.. Whereas Rollo’s site is fine.

ageroagnis
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I read an post a few days ago about this 5 minutes of alpha phenomenon where the woman admits in her own words “somehow an afternoon UNDER this guy is more important to me than months with a great, awesome boyfriend”

You can read the hamsterbatics here: http://redditlog.com/snapshots/35929

Morpheus
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Building Better Betas: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/12/12/personal-development/fashion-advice-20-something-guys/ Lets play dress up dolls! Just checked it out. Actually, some of the advice is not half bad. That said, I had to chuckle at the idea of not wearing a T-shirt. When I was coming back from my honeymoon, I had on a T-shirt I had bought at a place called Club Tattoo. Walking out of the plane, the attractive flight attendant smiled and said “That’s a really cool t-shirt”. I think different types of women are attracted to different looks on a guy. The hot gym fitness girl probably likes a different style than… Read more »

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Aristippus
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Really, you have to be more relentless than the woman you’re in a relationship with. Women will continually try to push your boundaries (so will pets and children). They are rather persistent in this type of behavior. It’s a matter of deciding what boundaries they’re not allowed to cross. As much as women might not want to hear it, men were meant to lead in the relationship. The male is bigger and stronger in most cases and although an emotional creature, is less ruled by his emotions than women. Notice I said “less”. Men have a better ability to overrule… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
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More like, once you are in the long-term box, if you try to push out of it you are creepy and need to be shut down. There is nothing wrong with the advice. It is what I advise men who still look like they dress in high school. Fit is important, layering is an easy way to convey sophistication, etc. However, you will not create a superior man solely on the basis of fashion. From the Masculine Imperative perspective? I have $3 million in bank deposits that need to be matched to invoices. The payer in question is using a… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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That’s a funny reddit page. That chick is trying to appear mature by claiming that her actions of using reddit to “get out of” her alpha-f*cks situation to “only be with” the “nice guy” demonstrate her maturity. They do nothing of the sort, she’s using the internet for attention. She desperately wants to brag about having the ultimate AFBB situation, but cannot risk dropping her name or she’ll lose it. That’s why she came to reddit. There is no solution that reddit can offer, or even a psychologist can offer, that she doesn’t already instinctively know, and that is to… Read more »

rbrtolson
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rbrtolson
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Let’s dive into this study vs. a prior study http://www.datingadvice.com/studies/1i4aww http://www.datingadvice.com/studies/7oahko First off, we lack confidence intervals. A little bit unnerving. Okay, moving on. These are the types that would “wait” for a third date kiss: White: 19% AA: 42% Hispanic: 45% Asian: 45% The huge discrepancies with the minorities all tightly in the same range leaps out to me. These are the rates for the people who have kissed on the first date: White: 75% African-American: 60 % Hispanic: 63% Asian: 29% Right. Okay. First we can conclude that African-American and Hispanic women have a big sampling problem or… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Ahem… I’m just going to leave this here…
http://markmanson.net/evolution

livingtree2013
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Not sure what you’re trying to refute here rollo. Women’s endocrinology changes during ovulation? Umm every woman on the planet could tell you that. Still doesn’t prove that they desire alpha males. Just that they desire sex more when ovulating. Which again, every woman on the planet will tell you.

If men were better at detecting it, they’d probably be able to use it to get more and better sex from their partners.

Johnycomelately
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Johnycomelately
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Thanks for not moderating Rollo.

Case
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Case
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Of course there is male hypergamy. You know – the specific way that this site and Rollo have been so compelling to me is because I can see it as the 20s guy … you know the guy Dalrock talked about who flattered older women by asking them out because … turns out … they are the same SMV … and I’ve been older, and I’ve seen how that goes down too. So first, male hypergamy. It’s simple. Guys will trade up. Heck, “spinning plates” besides being a means of personal state control and a means of balancing power is… Read more »

Patriarch
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Patriarch
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This makes a compelling case to marry off women as young as possible in an attempt to preserve the best of both the whore and the madonna.

strauMan (@strauMan)
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I have to say I appreciate Rollo’s blog and the posters on this site (whether in agreement or dissent). Anymore it’s hard to find folks to talk about such ideas without self-censoring. Moving on… One good book I read was ‘Sex at Dawn’ which explored male/female mating strategies from back in the day and their implications on contemporary relationships. A few points I found interesting: Females hide their ovulation to maximize selection (Sperm Wars). If a male in the Neolithic period knew his partner was ovulating he’s stay home to protect her from other horny males. Moreover an ovulating female… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Interesting stuff!
What’s more, it appears that the pill alters the natural ovulation signals, and regulates the changes in mate preference!
So looks like the pill is a beta’s best friend!
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091007124358.htm

YaReally
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YaReally
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A Beta gets married to a plain-Jane with the best of intentions of staying faithful to her. Then he gets approached by a dozen gorgeous Playboy models who all want him to fuck them the way he wants to fuck them, and who create opportunities where his wife will never find out and no one will know and he doesn’t have to feel guilty at all. He’s never met any girls hotter than his plain-Jane wife before so he’s never had this option or opportunity before. Anyone think that sooner or later he won’t bang one of those Playboy models?… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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“They do nothing of the sort, she’s using the internet for attention. She desperately wants to brag about having the ultimate AFBB situation, but cannot risk dropping her name or she’ll lose it. That’s why she came to reddit. There is no solution that reddit can offer, or even a psychologist can offer, that she doesn’t already instinctively know, and that is to choose between one of the men she’s seeing. Instead, she’s turned to the internet because she knows her behavior is leading to an explosion in her life, and she wants to feel some pride about how awesome… Read more »

chris
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chris
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@strauMan

“One good book I read was ‘Sex at Dawn’”

Read Sex at Dusk, which corrects some of the half-truths peddled in Sex at Dawn.

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dusk-Lifting-Shiny-Wrapping/dp/1477697284

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201207/sex-dusk

http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP10611616.pdf

Mr.C
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Mr.C
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My dedication to all the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks deniers.

(By Australian band TISM) fwd. to 0:40

Mr.C
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Mr.C
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To.the.End
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To.the.End
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RooshV had an interesting article about the nature of women being something like water and them taking the shape of whatever container they’re in (metaphor). Basically they do whatever they can get away with and are somewhat incapable of rationally directing their lives without a male influence. I’m inclined to agree. It really boils down to us as men. We must direct them every step of the way otherwise they’ll implode taking everything to grass with them.

Tin Man
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Tin Man
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@To The End Not disagreeing with your assumption, with this caveat…David Dieda in Way of the Superior Man puts it a different way – in that there is Masculine and Feminine energy – the following is from the book… “If a man is very masculine by nature, then he will be attracted to a very feminine woman, who will complement his energy. The more neutral or balanced he is, the more balanced he will prefer his woman. And, if a man is more feminine by nature, his energy will be complemented by the strong direction and purposiveness of a more… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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Giggles just ripped her advice of of:
http://masculine-style.com/
Her list of essentials was just pulled from his list of staples.
Somehow when it comes from her, it feels like that old dude with white hair in the matrix is trying to keep me perpetuating the cycle.

Tam the Bam
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Tam the Bam
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@T.T.E. ” .. otherwise they’ll implode taking everything to grass with them.”

You say that, like it’s a Bad Thing??

Nate
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Nate
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@Jeremy

Yes, thank you for bringing attention to that. I was just about to jump in a point out that Giggles’ style post is a total ripoff of Tanner’s stuff both at M-S and NLU.

The thing is I’m not even disappointed. That would imply I expected more of her.

ben
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ben
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excellent post. Thank you

jsr
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jsr
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@YaReally
“But even as cold and dead inside as I am, I can’t in good conscience recommend walking away from his kid.”

You come across as if women’s capacity for betrayal is no big deal except for insecure losers. If that’s how yareally feel, why are you cold and dead inside?

anotheronetakesthepill
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Isn’t the stronger need for sex what makes men beta? In the sense that some men are up to do and endure whatever it takes to get even the tiniest amount of sex they can.

In that sense women will always have the power.

LiveFearless
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@Dr. Jeremy

@Bob Wallace
Please identify the genes involved.
(Dr. Jeremy responds with)
This is like asking for a proof that gravity exists by demanding photographs of the sub-atomic particles responsible.

Dr. J, Bob Wallace is not going to fall for the banana in the tailpipe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LbqPberges

In “The Rational Male” (book), Rollo explains, “His Game, his ego-invested identity is literally dependent upon that system. So not only is he defending his Game and his ego, he’s also defending the social architecture that makes his Beta Game even possible.”

Glengarry
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Glengarry
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Well Rollo, if it wasn’t for you I’d long have forgotten HUS.

YourBuddyPete
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YourBuddyPete
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Let’s concede that everything you espouse regarding the “feminine imperative” is true, and we do. Whence does the almighty “feminine imperative” derive? A genesis that must surely apply across multiple civilizations, across multiple cultures, across multiple generational time spans? That information might aid one or two of your readers. Curious.

There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.
Henry David Thoreau

hoellenhund2
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You just have to wonder what kind of hopeless herbivores are the “men” who still read HUS. Even men who white-knighted for HUSsies and mocked MRAs got banned.

My2Cents
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My2Cents
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Guys, behold! The perfect app for reading all manosphere blogs from start to finish:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appsropos.instapress

Tested and working on:
heartiste.wordpress.com
therationalmale.com
dalrock.wordpress.com
donalgraeme.wordrpess.com
empathological.wordpress.com
freenorthrunner.wordpress.com
hiddenleaves.wordpress.com
http://www.justfourguys.com
mattforney.com
patriactionary.wordpress.com
newrebeluniv.wordpress.com
sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com
theprivateman.wordpress.com
canecaldo.wordpress.com
unmaskingfeminism.wordpress.com
veritaslounge.com

and many more …

Slothrop
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Slothrop
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Actually I do believe that a lot of guys get caught up with the “Madonna/Whore dynamic” to the point where it does become a complex to them. I see it all the time on these manosphere boards where guys are compartmentalizing women in a manner that’s not in line with playing the game. M/W is a useful concept only when you are using it to your own advantage. The modern culture is so inundated with sexual messages that there’s really no such thing as “innocent virgin” anyway. Even if a Madonna-type is determined to keep her number low, she still… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
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Dr. Jeremy
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@ Livefearless

1) I am not the same Dr. Jeremy who commented on the animation in the link you shared. We have different last names.

2) I did not respond to Bob Wallace. That was “Jeremy” the commenter. I am Dr. Jeremy. Again, two different people.

Gurney Halleck
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Gurney Halleck
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I think that it’s important to not forgot the lesson of HUS…maybe it’s why Rollo can’t let it go. For the longest while Susan was a woman unafraid to engage with and endorse Red Pill ideas. The comments section of her blog was an exciting and educative gathering of Red Pill minds. That even SHE couldn’t ultimately bear what Red Pill guys were saying, and chose to shut down the debate because of it (and let’s not forge the money motive here) is a testament to the fact it’ll be a long while before the ideas that Rollo/Dalrock promulgate find… Read more »

HanSolo
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HanSolo
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@Yourbuddypete Whence does the almighty “feminine imperative” derive? A genesis that must surely apply across multiple civilizations, across multiple cultures, across multiple generational time spans? That information might aid one or two of your readers. Curious. The feminine imperative’s primacy right now occurred for 2 main reasons: 1) Technology fueled by cheap energy led to great prosperity which diminished the importance of the provider role for males and made women much more independent, thus allowing their hypergamy to be unleashed (or in other words, they could pine after and sleep with men that are out of their league and ignore… Read more »

HanSolo
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HanSolo
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@YourBuddyPete

The short version is that it’s really the apex alpha male imperative that is using the feminine imperative for its own ends.

HanSolo
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HanSolo
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@YourBuddyPete Back when most people got and stayed married, one of the two female imperatives (have a stable provider/protector) was allowed to flourish but the other one (hypergamously seeking better genes via a sexual free-for-all) was often stifled. This fulfilled the beta male imperative of having someone that they could share sex and reproduce with. But it did largely restrict the other masculine imperative to be promiscuous (perhaps not much of a sacrifice for average males of MMV 5.5 since they would only be getting casual sex wtih female 2’s-4’s; w/o birth control, women just wouldn’t want to f*ck someone… Read more »

YourBuddyPete
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YourBuddyPete
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@HanSolo, Thanks for sharing your analysis. I tend to agree with what you’ve put forth, but one question remains, as pertains to this: “By liberating sex, apex alphas males can get lots of pussy.” I agree that: “They have created all sorts of gov’t programs to assist women, they have favored girls and women in education and created all sorts of legal disadvantages for men (such as divorce favoritism for women, excessive child support, no-fault divorce, affirmative action mostly employed on behalf of women).” However, based upon my own pedestrian view of the world around me, it seems that apex… Read more »

HanSolo
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HanSolo
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@Pete Not all apex alpha males are the same. Some are political, some are sexual (like rock stars), some are economic. And it’s not just politicians who are engineering the system. There are many different types. The sexual apex alphas like rock stars can (and some do) have sex with 1000’s of women. Why do a lot of guys get into a band? To get pussy. Find an interview with KISS and groupies and they say that’s one of the main things they wanted. Mic Jagger has been reported to have said that “Our music is calculated to drive the… Read more »

Simo
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Simo
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livingtree2013, I just want you to know the instant I see your name I scroll past to the next post.

HanSolo
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HanSolo
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@Pete Compare how apex alphas in the western world can have sex with 1000’s of women today if they want with 100 years ago. Not so easily. Sure, they’d have their dozens of women but not 1000’s. Now back in the days of kings and harems one man in the country would have a huge harem but that seems to have faded away over time. We can debate about the conscious reasons of why apex alphas of all types have done what they’ve done but there’s no denying that their actions (cultural, economic and legal) have helped unleashed hypergamy, a… Read more »

YourBuddyPete
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YourBuddyPete
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@HanSolo,

Rock stars are not apex alphas. Alpha status? Unquestionably. Certainly, to “betas,” they seem to be “apex.” But they aren’t. They’re tools. Read their contracts… follow the money. Yes, a very few actually reach that rung, but the exception proves the rule. Who is on the other side of those contracts? Who controls the distribution?

“Why did the apex alphas amplify what prosperity and technology already were creating?”

Consolidation. More power.

HanSolo
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HanSolo
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I disagree. Rock stars (as in ones that really make it big) are sexual apex alphas, which is one kind of alpha male. They don’t need their managers or the corporations–there’s plenty that will take them if one gets too difficult to work with. They are at the top of the social hierarchy of their fans and have literally 1000’s or women if not hypothetically more that would have sex with them.

HanSolo
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HanSolo
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Pete, why do they want power? What’s driving them? Underneath it all, it’s probably to be able to get women.

hoellenhund2
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The seizure of power is a form of self-preservation. Those with power normally victimize those without it. If you don’t have power, you’re toast.

YourBuddyPete
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YourBuddyPete
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@HanSolo, Friend, I agree with much that you put forth. Ultimately, it seems, we will have to agree to disagree, and I’m fine with that. “They are at the top of the social hierarchy of their fans and have literally 1000′s or women” “of their fans” “their fans” are not capable of re-engineering society. “their fans” are able to influence society, in the same way that a drop can influence a bucket. What about the males who own and control vast mineral deposits, oil reserves, media distribution systems, shipping conglomerates, the issuance of fiat money, weapons manufacturers, etc. “Rock stars”… Read more »

hoellenhund2
Guest

“The comments section of her blog was an exciting and educative gathering of Red Pill minds. That even SHE couldn’t ultimately bear what Red Pill guys were saying, and chose to shut down the debate because of it (and let’s not forge the money motive here) is a testament to the fact it’ll be a long while before the ideas that Rollo/Dalrock promulgate find acceptance in the mainstream.” It’s not that she couldn’t bear it, it’s that her female readers couldn’t bear it. You may have noticed that women were scarcely contributing to those exciting and educative discussions either because… Read more »

hoellenhund2
Guest

“And I’m glad the article points out that “Alpha Fux Beta Bux” is not really any woman’s dream mating strategy. The ideal is more “Alpha Fux Alpha Bux” and women with high SMV are hunting for as much of the whole package as they can get. So when ‘Aunt Giggles’ & friends deny the AFBB strategy, it’s because *they* didn’t have to settle for a beta, so why should anyone else” Aunt Giggles and her female commenters are anything but women with high SMV. The source of their frustrations and fears is that alpha fux are still available but beta… Read more »

Fred Flange, PsyCho D.
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Fred Flange, PsyCho D.
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Sometimes the obvious needs restating: a man can be alpha sexually but a fuckup economically or otherwise (see: rockbandrummer rock star who blows his money on, well, blow; mid-level gangsta; college or NFL footballer). And the most apex of alpha financiers can be the most omega socially; they can’t get laid and resort to “matchmaker” services like It’s Just Lunch (at least two adverts for such services in every airplane magazine on every airline; check it out). And when they do score they go uber-beta, buying the trophy wife the house, the car, the ladies Rolex watch, yet the wives… Read more »

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