The Desire Dynamic


You cannot negotiate Desire.

This is a very simple principle that most Men and the vast majority of women are willfully ignorant of. One the most common personal problems I’ve been asked advice for in the past 10 years is some variation of “how do I get her back?” Usually this breaks down into men seeking some methodology to return his relationship to an earlier state where a previously passionate woman couldn’t keep her hands off of him. Six months into a comfortable familiarity and the thrill is gone, but in truth it’s the genuine desire that is gone.

It’s often at this stage that a man will resort to negotiation. Sometimes this can be as subtle as him progressively doing things for her in the hopes that she’ll reciprocate with the same sexual fervor they used to have. Other times a married couple may go to marriage counseling to “resolve their sex issues” and negotiate terms for her sexual compliance. He’ll promise to do the dishes and a load of laundry more often in exchange for her feigned sexual interest in him. Yet, no matter what terms are offered, no matter how great an external effort he makes so deserving of reward, the genuine desire is not there for her. In fact, she feels worse for not having the desire after such efforts were made for her compliance.

Negotiated desire only ever leads to obligated compliance.

This is why her post-negotiation sexual response is often so lackluster and the source of even further frustration on his part. She may be more sexually available to him, but the half-hearted experience is never the same as when they first met when there was no negotiation, just spontaneous desire for each other.

From a male perspective, and particularly that of an uninitiated beta male, negotiation of desire seems a rational solution to the problem. Men tend to innately rely on deductive reasoning; otherwise known as an “if then” logic stream. The code is often something like this:

I need sex + women have the sex I want + query women about their conditions for sex + meet prerequisites for sex = the sex I want.

Makes sense right? It’s simple economics, but built on a foundation that relies on a woman’s accurate self-evaluations. The genuine desire they used to experience at the outset of their relationship was predicated upon a completely unknown set of variables. Overtly communicating a desire for reciprocal desire creates obligation, and sometimes even ultimatums. Genuine desire is something a person must come to – or be led to – on their own volition. You can force a woman by threat to comply with behaving in a desired manner, but you cannot make her want to behave that way. A prostitute will fuck you for an exchange, it doesn’t mean she wants to.

Whether LTR or a one night stand (ONS) strive for genuine desire in your relationships. Half of the battle is knowing you want to be with a woman who wants to please you, not one who feels obligated to. You will never draw this genuine desire from her by overt means, but you can covertly lead her to this genuine desire. The trick in provoking real desire is in keeping her ignorant of your intent to provoke it. Real desire is created by her thinking it’s something she wants, not something she has to do.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

89 comments on “The Desire Dynamic

  1. Any emotional decision (including motivation, attraction, desire or liking) is not a choice. Feelings are disconnected from conscious thought: they are instead the brain’s automatic responses upon being excited in various ways.

    Negotiating is often a poor way of triggering feelings in other people, as you explain. Creating the patterns the emotional brain responds to is much more effective.

    Rollo, I appreciate all your posts so far. They’re all dead on, and a great starting resource for me. Keep it coming.

  2. well, yeah but how do you manage that? when the magic’s gone, it’s gone. back in the fifties it was that very sense of female obligation that kept the institution of marriage going, nobody really complained, and it was win/win all around.

    change the parameters, i.e. female financial independence- that’s the wild card for better or worse. it doesn’t look good for marriage long term for both partners to be in a constant state of disequilibrium: both renegotiating something that should be settled up front when previously both accepted the status quo and kept their desire for one another because they knew on some level, consciously or not, there were no other options.

    sheesh, i don’t know what the solution is. there’s no getting the genie back in the bottle. certainly, the balancing act you advise is less assured of good results than the expectations we all would have had a generation ago .

    i guess from your name that you were raised catholic, like i was, but i
    think i’m quite a bit older than you. for all its oppressive strictures regarding the duties of spouses, i think that institution was onto something.

    1. Not catholic, however my mother converted to catholicism from evangelicalism about 15 years ago. And Rollo Tomassi is my pseudonym – go watch/read L.A. Confidential.

      I’m 43.

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  4. “The trick in provoking real desire is in keeping her ignorant of your inent to provoke it. ”

    let your greatest cunning lie in covering up what looks like cunning…

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  14. At a crossroads. Can you suggest Rollo how a woman may “be led”? Not necessarily to sex, but cooking an occasional meal or making or some effort on her part that shows she’s interested in pleasing a man. I also read in a follow up here the keywords “creating patterns”.
    Proud to be red pill aware and never going back.

  15. “You will never draw this genuine desire from her by overt means, but you can covertly lead her to this genuine desire. The trick in provoking real desire is in keeping her ignorant of your intent to provoke it. Real desire is created by her thinking it’s something she wants, not something she has to do.”

    Okay Tomassi, I totally agree with you there.

  16. Love your material, but grey on white is TERRIBLE for reading. Which I would assume is one of your goals for blogging. Please change the type color to black, or anything darker.

    Most designers are morons who want things to ‘look nice’. Usability and ease for the user is what matters most. Thanks.

    Keep up the great work.

  17. Yes, women are emotional creatures, and men are too. If we just scrutinize the most important decisions of life: they All had emotions involved!

    In my experience the following works:
    1 jealousy, just say something positive about other women, how they do things. Don’t say that you want it from her. Jealousy is a big one, especially if your woman is competitive.

    2 Forbidden fruit is sweet. Say to her that she is not allowed to do xyz to you for certain time, ie 5 days. Promise to tell her why only after those days are over. If she can’t wait and brokes the promise to not do xyz to you, even better. After 5 days are over tell her when asked that you wanted to know how it feels.

    3 ask any salesman who markets to women primarily. He had lots of techniques suitable to stirr your woman’s feelings.

    More to come…

  18. I was thinking about this recently (and this will be somewhat awkward because the thought is not fully formed) and I’m wondering if perhaps the truth is that desire is negotiated, but cannot be done so in any explicit human language. This thought came to mind when chatting with Goldmund on Twitter that humans effectively always speak two languages, a spoken/written language (or multiple) and the mating/power language. We’re generally taught how to speak and write just fine, but most men are left with no training whatsoever on effectively speaking the correct body/frame/mind language to communicate (especially between the sexes).

    I would guess that to attempt to negotiate desire using a spoken language is inherently destructive to our other (subtextual) mode of conversation, and hence destructive to the “proper” medium in which this interaction takes place. Examples of this exist in man-world as well. For instance just drafting a contract is often destructive to the utility of a handshake agreement. A man who is willing to enter into a handshake agreement with you on a business arrangement likely sees value in the method by which it was negotiated (ease and anonymity/privacy). That same man might pretend he doesn’t know you if you came to him with a formalized, english-written contract on which to sign and create a legal trail to your arrangement.

    Likewise, to negotiate desire using logic/reason/evidence is to destroy the utility in using the medium in which the feminine demands that such interaction take place. If desire is negotiated in a medium which is more temporary, works primarily by the generation of emotional stimuli/memories, and leaves the ultimate outcome with large amounts of plausible deniability, there can only be advantages for a woman. Without those elements, I can see how a woman might actually feel nothing but primordial fear over her dealings with a man as she’s not getting anything that reinforces her biologically-hard-coded preconceptions of what a interactions with a man are supposed to feel like if that man cares for her. The cave man didn’t negotiate desire, it was obvious on his face and his loins when he came back to the cave for a fuck. The women in those caves didn’t expect formalized language to prove he wanted her, this was all taken care of with a language as primordial as sexually dimorphic species themselves.

    Consider also that the female side of things has inherent conflicts in their needs/desires. Formalizing an arrangement is only destructive to the freedom and ease by which a woman might move from association to association and satisfy her biological requirements of beta bucks and alpha fucks. Even if a woman is entirely committed to you, wants to bear your children, wants to use your resources wisely, and has no immediate desire to cheat on you, there is little gained by bringing the desire dynamic away from the abstraction and into a defined and accountable language form.

    So, has Rollo already covered this in a subsequent post, or am I wrong here? It seems to me that desire actually is negotiated, but in a language that pre-dates humans themselves, and that modern humans have largely fallen out of practice with.

  19. All interactions are negotiated in some sense. Your very cells are negotiating with each other for you to remain alive and form thoughts. They exchange and sense chemicals rather than sound and sight.

    And many of our grosser forms of negotiation are baked into our very cells. That’s why evo-psych matters. We are not blank slates. We are cells. We are vertebrates. We are warm blooded. We are mammals. All of these things come with inherent biological psychology.

    Fish do not have a psychology of pregnancy, because fish do not get pregnant.

    When Rollo talks of negotiation he is referring to the dialectical method. As to your question I’m not sure how to answer it; the whole of The Rational Male is about the non-dialectical negotiation of desire.

    1. No doubt there is a lot of inner negotiation on the part of women entering their Epiphany Phase, trying to reconcile the long term security needs of her Super Ego and the visceral short term sexual needs of her Id. At some point what satisfies a woman’s Id she no longer has the capacity to maintain so there comes an inner conversation of negotiation over what available man represents the best compromise depending on her need and her acknowledgement of it and her true capacity to satisfy her long term security with or without him.

      Now introduce a Beta man into this inner negotiation; one who’s been preparing his whole life to be the best, most dependable provisioner that his BP conditioning would make of him. His influence enters the negotiation process, but her Id can never find satisfaction. Thus, the negotiation becomes one of her Ego negotiating with her Id trying to convince it to refigure it’s visceral Alpha Fucks needs to accommodate this guy since he represents just such long term security as the Super Ego needs.

  20. Rollo, that’s the best and most succinct discourse on the topic ever. Why, it’s almost as though you’ve been writing and thinking about this for years and now have distilled it down to an essence.

    1. Oh, don’t worry, I’m sure someone will come along and say I’m a loser for giving it all so much thought and that I’ll never get married or have kids any minute now.

  21. Negotiated sex is male prostitution… one should never stoop so low.

    It’s just like with children — when children realize that they can push daddy and mommy around to get what they want, they’ll just use them and stop respecting them — the result is extremely spoiled kids with a huge ego and no respect.

    Go back to your teenage and observe how your sex drive works. It doesn’t need anything except attraction (or in the case of men, a short amount of idle time before it starts itching for some action again). That’s it’s real nature — totally biological. If the attraction is there, it happens or not at all. In this regard, “sex for favours” is a big big lie. It’s an indirect way, dodging the tough direct form of saying “No”. Don’t think for a second that sex drive is aroused by favours – that might satisfy other emotions, but the sex impulse is purely driven by attractive qualities and further experiences with what attracts you. Most blue pillers take these statements from women as facts, but sorry guys, you’ve been lied to.

    I know a lot of red pillers take it to get the sex they want — however here’s the fact, so long as one is still a slave of his genitals, one is never free and you can’t evolve beyond. And in today’s society, being a slave to sex makes you a slave to women and it keeps you beta, kills your dreams, stops you from evolving, which in turn makes you less attractive…it’s a vicious trap. The paradox is that the free man who isn’t a slave of anything gets it all — and the man who is a slave gets treated for shit.

  22. @palmasailor

    Oh yes, I have seen my mum and aunts pass a few condescending comments on how they have to take care of their grown up boys. They joked about getting my cousin tied to another girl once he’s got a job and take a breather.

    Even in most of the so called long lived marriages here, I see that the attraction and respect are long long gone. They stick together because divorce = mutually assured destruction (MAD, right?). Couples in their 50s just can’t stand each other. They get a bit better when old age and approaching death makes it all seem petty. My parents, neighbours, relatives, my friends’ folks, practically everyone — desire? What desire? It’s all dry leaves.

    I myself am trying to come out of a marriage where I sank below toilet paper in terms of attractiveness and respect, and I absolutely swear first hand by what Rollo’s written here. I know the agony that others with kids are suffering and the games being played on them – they don’t deserve it, but paternal love is that strong. My case ended before we got there.

    I have seen only one or two successful couples who had the love till the end. The man never lost his respect and the wife her love. They had a side to them that wasn’t just animal.

    It was the rarest of rare cases that some couples felt the goosebumps and explosions even while old. Those couples had a different kind of spirituality, and managed to create an intensity of love over decades that more than made up for the decline in sexual and physical attractiveness with age (think heart orgasm rather than sex orgasm, same energy, just sublimated without the loss of attraction or intensity). I know only one such case. The husband had told me how he just feels orgasmic looking lovingly at his wife (even when the sex became rare with old age) and how his wife keeps gushing gleefully about how they still appear like teenagers in public — she looks at her husband like he’s a God, and he’s a remarkable man. Those are maybe one in a million.

    That might sound too bizarre for people, especially guys of my age to believe — they may even laugh at the idea that you can feel like that — but the fact is despite all the game and plates and alphas — trust in relationships is at an all time low, so most will never get to experience what it’s like to consciously evolve your love over time without losing it’s intensity.

    And forget such lofty idealistic goals, trust is so bad now that even the whole idea of having kids isn’t worth considering. Like the Roman empire, one day bachelor tax will be a thing and if this keeps up, I don’t see the West lasting for much longer than 2 generations at the top of the ladder. These truths of game and psychology and evolution aren’t new, they are around since the world’s oldest civilizations, and this was why hypergamy of all forces was kept under control, until now. Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.

  23. Thing is — once at some sort of level, a girl’s feelings of attraction are lost and then turn into active revulsion, even she won’t be able to stop herself. I’ve seen the power of this animal – bow to it and it will result in “death by betatization” or divorce or outright exploitation. There’s honestly little to nothing you can do once you get to that stage for her, anything that you do to improve your value is just for yourself, but don’t expect it might change the relationship.

    Honestly, if we walk into a store and our legs start kicking people and taking us places, and our hands pluck anything they can reach and we say, “I don’t know. I’m just driven to do that” — that would be a truly bizarre disorder, but this is that nature of our mind, especially the mind of today’s instinct driven women, who have no idea what this is gonna do in the long run.

  24. Well, I fucked that up – regardless, excellent stuff. Starting from the beginning of this blog and working towards the present. Long-time reader and fan; please don’t allow any occasional criticism or disagreement lead you to think otherwise. I have tremendous respect for your work.

  25. Very true, you must master the covert art of manipulating desire. Like hitting the gym and demonstrating your high value to ALL women

    Awesome post Rollo

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