You cannot negotiate Desire.
This is a very simple principle that most Men and the vast majority of women are willfully ignorant of. One the most common personal problems I’ve been asked advice for in the past 10 years is some variation of “how do I get her back?” Usually this breaks down into men seeking some methodology to return his relationship to an earlier state where a previously passionate woman couldn’t keep her hands off of him. Six months into a comfortable familiarity and the thrill is gone, but in truth it’s the genuine desire that is gone.
It’s often at this stage that a man will resort to negotiation. Sometimes this can be as subtle as him progressively doing things for her in the hopes that she’ll reciprocate with the same sexual fervor they used to have. Other times a married couple may go to marriage counseling to “resolve their sex issues” and negotiate terms for her sexual compliance. He’ll promise to do the dishes and a load of laundry more often in exchange for her feigned sexual interest in him. Yet, no matter what terms are offered, no matter how great an external effort he makes so deserving of reward, the genuine desire is not there for her. In fact, she feels worse for not having the desire after such efforts were made for her compliance.
Negotiated desire only ever leads to obligated compliance.
This is why her post-negotiation sexual response is often so lackluster and the source of even further frustration on his part. She may be more sexually available to him, but the half-hearted experience is never the same as when they first met when there was no negotiation, just spontaneous desire for each other.
From a male perspective, and particularly that of an uninitiated beta male, negotiation of desire seems a rational solution to the problem. Men tend to innately rely on deductive reasoning; otherwise known as an “if then” logic stream. The code is often something like this:
I need sex + women have the sex I want + query women about their conditions for sex + meet prerequisites for sex = the sex I want.
Makes sense right? It’s simple economics, but built on a foundation that relies on a woman’s accurate self-evaluations. The genuine desire they used to experience at the outset of their relationship was predicated upon a completely unknown set of variables. Overtly communicating a desire for reciprocal desire creates obligation, and sometimes even ultimatums. Genuine desire is something a person must come to – or be led to – on their own volition. You can force a woman by threat to comply with behaving in a desired manner, but you cannot make her wantĀ to behave that way. A prostitute will fuck you for an exchange, it doesn’t mean she wants to.
Whether LTR or a one night stand (ONS) strive for genuine desire in your relationships. Half of the battle is knowing you want to be with a woman who wantsĀ to please you, not one who feels obligated to. You will never draw this genuine desire from her by overt means, but you can covertly lead her to this genuine desire. The trick in provoking real desire is in keeping her ignorant of your intent to provoke it. Real desire is created by her thinking it’s something she wants, not something she has to do.
Rollo.
How ? Teasing ?
[…] don’t think would ever be romantic that stick with her. In the same way you cannot negotiate genuine desire, likewise you cannot engineer genuine […]
Any emotional decision (including motivation, attraction, desire or liking) is not a choice. Feelings are disconnected from conscious thought: they are instead the brain’s automatic responses upon being excited in various ways.
Negotiating is often a poor way of triggering feelings in other people, as you explain. Creating the patterns the emotional brain responds to is much more effective.
Rollo, I appreciate all your posts so far. They’re all dead on, and a great starting resource for me. Keep it coming.
well, yeah but how do you manage that? when the magic’s gone, it’s gone. back in the fifties it was that very sense of female obligation that kept the institution of marriage going, nobody really complained, and it was win/win all around. change the parameters, i.e. female financial independence- that’s the wild card for better or worse. it doesn’t look good for marriage long term for both partners to be in a constant state of disequilibrium: both renegotiating something that should be settled up front when previously both accepted the status quo and kept their desire for one another because… Read more »
Not catholic, however my mother converted to catholicism from evangelicalism about 15 years ago. And Rollo Tomassi is my pseudonym – go watch/read L.A. Confidential.
I’m 43.
[…] are not her highest priority. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. It’s sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fuck you […]
“The trick in provoking real desire is in keeping her ignorant of your inent to provoke it. ”
hence
let your greatest cunning lie in covering up what looks like cunning…
[…] sexuality than reserving a ‘special day’ just for it. Remember, you cannot negotiate genuine desire; and with the right art, a bag of Skittles can be a more romantic gesture than all the sonnets, […]
[…] out of shape men have a relatively easy time attracting women, but they can’t make a woman genuinely desire to fuck him on a physical level. It’s just the very commercial version of negotiating […]
[…] slave. If you get anything from my blog it should be this ā I am always focused on the Desire Dynamic. A slave might behave in ways that please you, but you cannot negotiate genuine desire, nor can you […]
[…] more sex now than when he was single or dating his wife, but sex isn’t the issue here – desire is the root of the […]
[…] benefit. If youāre good looking, particularly with a good body, women will viscerally want you. True desire cannot be negotiated. Women donāt bang rich guys because theyāre physically attracted to them; they bang them for […]
[…] I can detail about what makes for a good marriage, but all of these really boil down to two things, genuine desire and mutual respect. Too many couples become complacent and comfortable in their marriages and this […]
Spot on. As David DeAngelo says, “Attraction Isn’t A Choice”.
In terms of HOW to maintain that attraction, you need to engage womens’ emotions, rather than logic, as you hit on. Maintaining that desire is so incredibly important.
I wrote a post on doing exactly this a few weeks ago: http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/you-need-to-stir-girls-emotions/
Keep up the great writing!
[…] is the Desire Dynamic – you can never force a genuine desire by means of coercion or negotiation. You can pay a […]
[…] The Desire Dynamic […]
[…] Before I begin here, let me state emphatically that this isĀ not a take-down piece. Martel’s observations here made me consider a few things I’me not sure I developed adequately when I wrote theĀ Desire Dynamic. […]
[…] [The Desire Dynamic] […]
[…] In the words of Rollo Tomassi: […]
[…] Who else is always saying something similar to that? Ā I can’t remember; probably some famous feminist. Ā Or not. […]
[…] the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp […]
[…] Relational Equity – Plate Spinning – The desire dynamic – Saviour […]
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[…] thread; Originally Posted by TheDisgruntledGentleman I'm going to leave this here… The Desire Dynamic | You CANNOT negotiate desire which is exactly what these lard arses are trying to do… One would […]
[…] (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); Originally Posted by AbelMagwitch Naw. Never mind any of that. What matters is how you feel. Because vagina. ROFL! Originally Posted by The Invisible Man She is trying to evade the facts of reality. Either a man finds you beautiful or he doesn't. You don't get to define it. Indeed. You CANNOT negotiate desire but the gods only know that women will synchronise their Hamsters and vaginas and fuckin' try though… The Desire Dynamic | […]
[…] for her and her desires or marry her, and considering my current state of affairs, she attempted to negotiate her desire for me, which is a known path to destruction for any relationship, and I knew […]
[…] and rational themselves. I post this link a lot because I think it's a damn good red pill; The Desire Dynamic | and then this one to drive it home; Saving the Best | What this guy is advocating is a marriage […]
[…] Women weighing ten stone or less and slimmer than a size 14 are most 'desirable' says new poll – so what does that mean for average size 16 and 11st 2lb female? | Mail Online (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); A new study has looked into what makes a member of the opposite sex 'desirable' and despite the average women weighing around 11st 2lbs and wearing a size 16, 94 per cent of all respondents – both male and female – said that weighing 10 stone or more and wearing above a size 14 was 'undesirable' and 'unattractive'. Yup,… Read more »
[…] man’s pain that he gave her. The ups and downs sheĀ receivedĀ from him will never be seen inĀ genuineĀ form when it comes to you. You are just filing a role that is her best option in that […]
[…] From The Desire Dynamic: […]
[…] ArtĆculo de Rollo Tomassi, The Rational Male […]
[…] Lindy is oblivious to (no doubt from a lack of experiencing male attention) is that genuine desire cannot be negotiated for. Many aĀ hapless Beta suffering in aĀ ‘tolerance’ relationship is all too familiar with […]
[…] of responsibility a man believes she should be beholden to is counterproductive in influencing her genuine desires. However, this is usually a self-guided hope that women will recognize and regulate […]
Reblogged this on 254MGTOW and commented:
Gold!
[…] want to be the man that causes her to have that genuine desire for you […]
THANK YOU SO MUCH YOU ARE MY FRIEND
At a crossroads. Can you suggest Rollo how a woman may “be led”? Not necessarily to sex, but cooking an occasional meal or making or some effort on her part that shows she’s interested in pleasing a man. I also read in a follow up here the keywords “creating patterns”.
Proud to be red pill aware and never going back.
[…] in terms of respect from their spouses, but this outline ignores the basic principles of the Desire Dynamic ā respect is valueless if it’s an obligation, you cannot negotiate a genuine respect. Men […]
[…] sexually attractive to their wives is to do more nice things for them. Ā This is what Rollo calls negotiating desire, and not only does the approach not work when men try it, it makes the problem much worse. Ā Harley […]
“You will never draw this genuine desire from her by overt means, but you can covertly lead her to this genuine desire. The trick in provoking real desire is in keeping her ignorant of your intent to provoke it. Real desire is created by her thinking itās something she wants, not something she has to do.”
Okay Tomassi, I totally agree with you there.
[…] overt form of this that manifests is negotiating desire which Rollo is fond of saying. Just as you can’t covert contract your way to get a woman to like you the […]
[…] appreciation of something you enjoy the experience of you must remember that you are, in essence, negotiating for her genuine desire to do […]
[…] (Enlace al original en Ingles) […]
Love your material, but grey on white is TERRIBLE for reading. Which I would assume is one of your goals for blogging. Please change the type color to black, or anything darker.
Most designers are morons who want things to ‘look nice’. Usability and ease for the user is what matters most. Thanks.
Keep up the great work.
Yes, women are emotional creatures, and men are too. If we just scrutinize the most important decisions of life: they All had emotions involved! In my experience the following works: 1 jealousy, just say something positive about other women, how they do things. Don’t say that you want it from her. Jealousy is a big one, especially if your woman is competitive. 2 Forbidden fruit is sweet. Say to her that she is not allowed to do xyz to you for certain time, ie 5 days. Promise to tell her why only after those days are over. If she can’t… Read more »
[…] complain about the lack of it. That will surely dry up every vagina in a 2 mile radius. Remember, you cannot negotiate desire. That includes the pathetic, “Chore […]
[…] process is not logical, you can’t negotiate desire. Just like how a woman determines consent, which man she deems ‘better’ or more […]
This makes perfect sense! And something I can truly relate to after my last relationship.
[…] In the end, all of your efforts to resuscitate your dead bedroom are for not because you cannot negotiate desire. […]
[…] you cannot negotiate genuine desire. You having conversations about how you’re going to fuck her in Italy are evidence that you […]
Reblogged this on eghost247.
[…] As Rollo Tomassi says, “You can’t negotiate desire”. […]
[…] effort in acquiescing to his woman’s Frame while keeping him in a perpetual state of negotiating for her genuine desire. From a Red Pill perspective we understand this, but there was a time, not so long ago, when […]
[…] To put it bluntly: You can compel your wifeĀ by negotiationĀ to comply with behaving in a desired manner, but you cannot make her wantĀ to behave that way through the process of negotiation. In the same way, a prostitute will agree toĀ provide a man sexĀ for a negotiated rate, but it doesnāt mean she wants to. 1 […]
[…] always be the 800 pound. gorilla in the room in any future relationship. As I elaborated in the Desire Dynamic, healthy relationships are founded on genuine mutual desire, not a list of negotiated terms and […]
[…] (Read: The Desire Dynamic) […]
[…] band member seems to look at her with desire. Jack is aware of this and doesnāt like that they are about to embark on a month long tour […]
[…] Before you get angry at me, remember I didnāt make the rules. I just observe them. If you disagree, askĀ yourself: Has a woman who prioritized the latter over the former ever hadĀ a difficult time finding and keeping a top-tier man? It may not be fair, and culture may have lied to you about it (which may have led to less than ideal life choices), but this is reality. You can either boycott the marketplace or give it what it wants. You cannot impose your will on it.Ā Attraction is not a choice. […]
You cannot negotiate Desire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAua63wZ6aY
Negotiated desire only ever leads to obligated compliance.
[…] The Desire Dynamic by Rollo Tomassi […]
[…] effort in acquiescing to his woman’s Frame while keeping him in a perpetual state of negotiating for her genuine desire. From a Red Pill perspective we understand this, but there was a time, not so long ago, when […]
[…] band member seems to look at her with desire. Jack is aware of this and doesnāt like that they are about to embark on a month long tour […]
I was thinking about this recently (and this will be somewhat awkward because the thought is not fully formed) and I’m wondering if perhaps the truth is that desire is negotiated, but cannot be done so in any explicit human language. This thought came to mind when chatting with Goldmund on Twitter that humans effectively always speak two languages, a spoken/written language (or multiple) and the mating/power language. We’re generally taught how to speak and write just fine, but most men are left with no training whatsoever on effectively speaking the correct body/frame/mind language to communicate (especially between the sexes).… Read more »
All interactions are negotiated in some sense. Your very cells are negotiating with each other for you to remain alive and form thoughts. They exchange and sense chemicals rather than sound and sight. And many of our grosser forms of negotiation are baked into our very cells. That’s why evo-psych matters. We are not blank slates. We are cells. We are vertebrates. We are warm blooded. We are mammals. All of these things come with inherent biological psychology. Fish do not have a psychology of pregnancy, because fish do not get pregnant. When Rollo talks of negotiation he is referring… Read more »
No doubt there is a lot of inner negotiation on the part of women entering their Epiphany Phase, trying to reconcile the long term security needs of her Super Ego and the visceral short term sexual needs of her Id. At some point what satisfies a woman’s Id she no longer has the capacity to maintain so there comes an inner conversation of negotiation over what available man represents the best compromise depending on her need and her acknowledgement of it and her true capacity to satisfy her long term security with or without him. Now introduce a Beta man… Read more »
Rollo, that’s the best and most succinct discourse on the topic ever. Why, it’s almost as though you’ve been writing and thinking about this for years and now have distilled it down to an essence.
Oh, don’t worry, I’m sure someone will come along and say I’m a loser for giving it all so much thought and that I’ll never get married or have kids any minute now.
[…] A marriage limited to one woman is called monogamy, but is better referred to as a female monopoly.Ā Monopoly, by definition, is characterized by a lack of accountability from competitive forces.Ā In other words, monogamy eliminates the most powerful word from a man’s vocabulary:Ā “Next!”Ā Ā With no accountability, the woman has no desire to please and provide good service.Ā What is it that Rollo is fond of saying? […]
[…] The man outside my door must have been talking to her on his laptop for how many hours now. I’m not sure quite. I woke up in the middle of it. I hear him trying to rekindle a relationship — a long-distance one — with a woman who proved to be unfaithful. He was making the oldest mistake too: trying to find love by appealing to reason. […]
[…] Tomassi put it best when he wrote ‘you cannot negotiate desire.’ Human beings move towards the things they want, and away from the things they do not want. […]
[…] Artigo original:Ā https://therationalmale.com/2011/08/25/the-desire-dynamic/ […]
Negotiated sex is male prostitution… one should never stoop so low. It’s just like with children — when children realize that they can push daddy and mommy around to get what they want, they’ll just use them and stop respecting them — the result is extremely spoiled kids with a huge ego and no respect. Go back to your teenage and observe how your sex drive works. It doesn’t need anything except attraction (or in the case of men, a short amount of idle time before it starts itching for some action again). That’s it’s real nature — totally biological.… Read more »
[…] ortaya Ƨıkar, sizinle olmak zorunda olduÄunu dĆ¼ÅĆ¼nmesinden deÄil. Ćeviri : The Desire Dynamic Author Erkek AdamPosted on September 5, 2017Tags Kadın Erkek Ä°liÅkileri, Kadın Psikolojisi, […]
Your freedom is measured by what you are willing to walk away from.
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[…] or just as something to do. It is exactly the obligated sex I’ve been talking about sinceĀ The Desire Dynamic. This incident is exactly the story this ‘grey sex’ sentiment had needed, but in the […]
[…] or just as something to do. It is exactly the obligated sex Iāve been talking about sinceĀ The Desire Dynamic. This incident is exactly the story this āgrey sexā sentiment had needed, but in the larger […]
@palmasailor Oh yes, I have seen my mum and aunts pass a few condescending comments on how they have to take care of their grown up boys. They joked about getting my cousin tied to another girl once he’s got a job and take a breather. Even in most of the so called long lived marriages here, I see that the attraction and respect are long long gone. They stick together because divorce = mutually assured destruction (MAD, right?). Couples in their 50s just can’t stand each other. They get a bit better when old age and approaching death makes… Read more »
Thing is — once at some sort of level, a girl’s feelings of attraction are lost and then turn into active revulsion, even she won’t be able to stop herself. I’ve seen the power of this animal – bow to it and it will result in “death by betatization” or divorce or outright exploitation. There’s honestly little to nothing you can do once you get to that stage for her, anything that you do to improve your value is just for yourself, but don’t expect it might change the relationship. Honestly, if we walk into a store and our legs… Read more »
[…] getting her to “come around” to having sex with him. It was then I thought,Ā you cannot negotiate genuine desire. Either a womanĀ wantsĀ to fuck you or she doesn’t. There are definitely ways to prompt that […]
[…] wasnāt getting her to ācome aroundā to having sex with him. It was then I thought,Ā you cannot negotiate genuine desire. Either a womanĀ wantsĀ to fuck you or she doesnāt. There are definitely ways to prompt that […]
[…] “The Desire Dynamic” oleh Rollo […]
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Well, I fucked that up – regardless, excellent stuff. Starting from the beginning of this blog and working towards the present. Long-time reader and fan; please don’t allow any occasional criticism or disagreement lead you to think otherwise. I have tremendous respect for your work.
[…] Because you can’t negotiate desire. […]
[…] Rollo Tomassi’nin sitesinden Ä°ngilizce okumak iƧin buraya […]
[…] The Desire Dynamic […]
Very true, you must master the covert art of manipulating desire. Like hitting the gym and demonstrating your high value to ALL women
Awesome post Rollo
[…] Recall those stats I mentioned above. One girl will join me for a drink of the one hundred I approach. My blowout rate is fairly low, at roughly 15%. Another 70%ish are “soft blowouts” where a girl listens to the compliment then leaves as she says “thank you, but sorry I have to go”. The remaining 15% give me the time of day–I usually enjoy this 15%. Most of them are pleasant conversations, though some of them are annoying. I’m starting to qualify girls through my body language and intonation. It’s not conscious; I’ve just noticed that girls who… Read more »
[…] between Transactional vs. Validational Sex (2018-3-7) stemming from his original postulate, āyou cannot negotiate genuine desireā.Ā Rollo went on to describe many of the problems and pitfalls surrounding Transactional Sex, […]
[…] hugely essential when chatting to some other user is honesty and personals on facebook achieving a genuine desire to make a bond with a dating […]
[…] work, Rollo has addressed most of the issues that DG introduced, especially the motivations of desire and hypergamy (for which he is now famous for), thereby supplying us with an evo-psyche explanation […]
[…] By maximizing your potential and attracting a woman who is actually eligible to marry, it is possible to have a reasonably safe marriage. Still, that doesnāt get rid of the problem of what women could do to you. Given their history there may very well be problems because we live in an environment today that places temptations on women they should not have to face. Maybe some of you are fit to rule and women find you highly attractive, but you look at the situation and decide itās just too risky because marriage is a really bad deal nowadays.… Read more »