Women in Love

Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.

Today’s pull quote comes from Xpat Ranting’s blog. The discourse there is brief, but insightful:

I really, really, really hope the myth that girls are the hopeless romantics gets kicked to the curb ASAP. Everyone needs to realize that men are the “romantics pretending to be realists” and women; vice versa

I found this particularly thought provoking – Men are the romantics forced to be the realists, while women are the realists using romanticisms to effect their imperatives (hypergamy). This is a heaping mouthful of cruel reality to swallow, and dovetails nicely into the sixth Iron Rule of Tomassi:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #6
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.

In its simplicity this speaks volumes about about the condition of Men. It accurately expresses a pervasive nihilism that Men must either confront and accept, or be driven insane in denial for the rest of their lives when they fail to come to terms with the disillusionment.

Women are incapable of loving men in a way that a man idealizes is possible, in a way he thinks she should be capable of.

In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order to facilitate their imperatives, women can’t actualize how a man would have himself loved by her. It is not the natural state of women, and the moment he attempts to explain his ideal love, that’s the point at which his idealization becomes her obligation. Our girlfriends, our wives, daughters and even our mothers are all incapable of this idealized love. As nice as it would be to relax, trust and be vulnerable, upfront, rational and open, the great abyss is still the lack of an ability for women to love Men as Men would like them to.

For the plugged-in beta, this aspect of ‘awakening’ is very difficult to confront. Even in the face of constant, often traumatic, controversions to what a man hopes will be his reward for living up to qualifying for a woman’s love and intimacy, he’ll still hold onto that Disneyesque ideal.

It’s very important to understand that this love archetype is an artifact from our earliest feminized conditioning. It’s much healthier to accept that it isn’t possible and live within that framework. If she’s there, she’s there, if not, oh well. She’s not incapable of love in the way she defines it, she’s incapable of love as you would have it. She doesn’t lack the capacity for connection and emotional investment, she lacks the capacity for the connection you think would ideally suit you.

The resulting love that defines a long-term couple’s relationship is the result of coming to an understanding of this impossibility and re-imagining what it should be for Men. Men have been, and should be, the more dominant gender, not because of some imagined divine right or physical prowess, but because on some rudimentary psychological level we ought to realized that a woman’s love is contingent upon our capacity to maintain that love in spite of a woman’s hypergamy. By order of degrees, hypergamy will define who a woman loves and who she will not, depending upon her own opportunities and capacity to attract it.

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YOHAMI
Guest

Yes.

Brent
Guest

“…we ought to [“have”?] realized that a woman’s love is contingent upon our capacity to maintain it [what is “it”?] in spite of a woman’s hypergamy”.

Loller
Guest
Loller

You say it so easily, but this realization, for many guys I believe (myself included), carries with it much weight. Perhaps on the same level as what disproving god is for a believer.

“re-imagining what it should be for Men” is just as easy as rebirth in this case.

If only my father had told me that throughout childhood instead of the regular “when you’ll have a wife that you love, you’ll stop playing your silly video games”…

Brian
Guest
Brian

Women love their pocketbooks, phone, tv, house, etc. Women expect men to buy them these things (or if the woman already has them, then to buy her Newer/Better/More expensive of these things). Men can opt-out of this, and also thus have better Game, by not buying women anything expensive. A man can love himself and maybe love his pets, and view women as just for Game.

Michael
Guest
Michael

The posts here are nicely written, and you get lots of little details right. In “to effect their imperatives”, for example, not one person in a hundred would use “effect” correctly, but you did. I have noticed, though, the frequent use of “it’s” as a possessive, as in “In it’s simplicity…” The apostrophe is seductive in possessives, but in this context you want “its” instead: “In its simplicity…” You might find the “his/hers/its” mnemonic helpful in remembering the distinction.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Noted.

Muse
Guest
Muse

so how about an article on how the modern man expects to be loved…

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[…] Always remember that a Lady will still be a female, still subject to the same biological impulses, the same societal pressures. Even with such a catch of the rare and elusive Lady, one has to remember that fact and act accordingly. As Rollo said just today on his blog post: […]

Snoeperd
Guest
Snoeperd

It seems your last posts are all about reasons why it´s so hard for most men to get a hold of the stress that comes with the new realistic “blue pill” world vision. Its very insightful, keep it coming.

Also in the way you describe the relation its more similar to the employer-employee relation and not a relation where you can depend on the other person if times go bad (which is neccesary if you want to feel safe in the relationship’)

Leap of a Beta
Guest

Loved it Rollo. Just started reading your blog this week. Its been really helpful as I take my first tentative steps blogging as a way to organize my thoughts and dealing with the red pill. Oh, by the way, I had no idea it would link and quote what I wrote on my blog earlier tonight to yours. I have no idea what the ‘etiquette’ is on that – I was startled to see that it did that. If you want me to take the link to yours down, just let me know. Or, alternatively, if there’s some setting I… Read more »

xsplat
Guest

A woman’s love is contingent upon our capacity to maintain that love in spite of a woman’s hypergamy I’ve been hammering on that theme for a while, in relation to marriage. There was a time when the sexual strategy of relying on the norms of the community to help keep your partner mated to you was successful. But nowadays marriage is less effective, and men who want to maintain such bonds must take on more personal responsibility for the effort. Nowadays we must maintain attraction, through charisma, dominance, psychological ploys, and as many other attractiveness triggers as we can manipulate.… Read more »

Flahute
Guest
Flahute

Truth. I learned it the hard way.

A woman can love, but not the same way that we men love.

Examine the literature. The Romantics are men.

PermanentGuest
Guest

This spells out exactly why a man should seek a woman’s respect, and not her love. The more respect and power she gives him, the better he can love her.

As per the incapability to love at the same capacity, I’m curious as to an explanation of how this is a natural state. I consider it more to be a conditioned response, yet I could be wrong on that one.

xsplat
Guest

I woman can love like a puppy. She can dote and be devoted. You can be her world. But it’s a different love than what men have. Men are loyal to love, while women are loyal to immediate circumstances. Her feelings can be strong and powerful, and she will be honest when she says she wants to be with you forever. Translated to man speak it means “Right now I feel like I want to be with you forever”. A woman’s love is a valuable thing. It has it’s own brand of truth and beauty to it. Just don’t mistake… Read more »

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[…] Ferdinand Bardamu In the same respect that women cannot appreciate the sacrifices men are expected to make in order … Published: December 28, 2011 Leave a Comment Name: […]

uh (@uppity_goy)
Guest

“Examine the literature. The Romantics are men.”

Literature is male.

Guavaberry
Guest
Guavaberry

After 35 years of marriage I still see the admiration and love in my mother’s eyes when she looks at my dad. I do not see how that applies to your argument. I guess this is one of those manosphere posts on which you try to reduce women into something they are not, in order not to feel guilty when you heartlessly use them and hurt them.

Danzarfuman Darkiaterlar
Guest
Danzarfuman Darkiaterlar

I can see love in mother’s eyes – Guavaberry. Interesting point. I think by that time they truly became ideal life partner’s. A sort of platonic friendship in conjunction with the former sexual chemistry must’ve risen from those everlasting years…. Question are you.. Christian by any chance? That must be a factor to, since husband and wife seek to be one flesh, beneath God. The philosopher (forgot his name) touched base on They were.. PATERNAL (CONDITIONAL, “If u follow my rules u’ll make me proud) MATERNAL (Unconditional “ill protect and luv my lil baby no amtter what) Erotic (Desiring possession… Read more »

Danzarfuman Darkiaterlar
Guest
Danzarfuman Darkiaterlar

Women don’t love men, they love the feelings the man brings.

And discuss.

True or false? It confirms your previous concept of female
narcissism.

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[…] his comments section: I woman can love like a puppy. She can dote and be devoted. You can be her […]

lucien
Guest

When I realized the implications of what this post is saying a few years ago I was shattered. Borderline suicidal. Profound one-itis AND realizing that there is no such thing as true love in the old school romantic sense almost made me lose my will to live. Beta, sure, but I had many bad things going for me. I was steeped in the romantics from a young age, both poetry and philosophy, not to mention a strong spiritual background. Frankly, I was totally unprepared for my whole life view to be upended. The poster who said its like realizing God… Read more »

Jim
Guest
Jim

A woman asked me what my “love language” was and I said something like, “I don’t need love, Chuck Norris only loves his horse.” So, instead of getting smushy, this kind of a ultra-confident statement increased her attraction.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

In Guava’s parent’s case I have no doubt that her mother has a deep affinity for her husband. As I said, this isn’t an issue of whether a woman can love at all – I’m not debating the genuineness or sincerity of women’s capacity to love. What I’m positing here is that women’s conception of love isn’t what men would be led to believe it is. Men are the True Romantics not women. Men cling to an idealized concept of love that no woman is capable of fulfilling because her concept is different. Hers is a more practical, pragmatic conditional… Read more »

imnobody
Guest
imnobody

Women confuse love with infatuation. When they are infatuated, they “love” you. When they are not, they “don’t love you anymore”. As it has been said, they love the feelings you produce in them. When a man says “I love you”, he means “I would do anything for you. I will be loyal and I will sacrifice for you”. When a woman says “I love you”, she means “Right now, I am feeling romantic feelings for you because I have a gina tingle”. While men are talking about the future, women are talking about the present. In fact, women are… Read more »

Kane
Guest

Iron Rule of Tomassi #2
Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.

Is it even possible for a man to master game without first accepting this reality?

daft
Guest
daft

As said on the novel “Dangerous liaisons”, by choderlos de laclos: “men savor the happiness they feel, women savor by giving it”

It confirms by other means your rule #6.

Emma the Emo
Guest

So what is the love that men expect, exactly? From the post, it seems a bit vague, but I guess it’s that almost unconditional love? The one where you stick together even if you age, lose a job, become less exciting? Fully unconditional love is not something to want, if you ask me, as it’s the type of love that keeps people with their abusive partners. I also looked at the Disneyesque ideal link. Is that what men want, then? Wanting to be needed and indispensable is not asking for too much (if you’re unneeded and dispensable, it’s not much… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

A love that is idealistic and soul-fitting by beta standards. Pick any hollywood romantic comedy. Then replace the male with a female.

Charm
Guest
Charm

I can agree with this. I must be wired differently because I love just like men love. I want to be completely devoted and loyal to someone that I can really trust. I find that I also hold friendships to a loyalty standard and because women are so iffy, I usually end up with only male friends. This is why I personally like to take my time dating. I also don’t date just to be doing it. If I’m out with someone it’s because I enjoy their company and want to get to know them better. I definitely circle around… Read more »

Anony
Guest
Anony

I’m psychologically where you apparently were once. You sound very similar to me – your upbringing, studies, interests, stuff. How did you get through it? What happened with the oneities girl? I’m at a loss for words, and feel like I’m Stevie on East Bound & Down. Like that’s who I’ll become if I don’t get over this. I have read, studied, & comprehended from an early age, Kierkegaard to Schopenhauer, St. John of the Cross to Kukai, Nerval to Ezra Pound, Yeats to Burroughs, the Sepher Yetzirah to Bacon to Scholem to you name it etc…yet I can’t internalize… Read more »

Rooster
Guest
Rooster

“she will be honest when she says she wants to be with you forever. Translated to man speak it means “Right now I feel like I want to be with you forever”.”

Thanks to xsplat for the bitesize takeaway. This nails it on the head for me.

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[…] trying to run you up the flagpole here. My assumption is that Dan hasn’t read Appreciation or Women In Love in their entirety. There’s much more to men’s sacrifices than just a trade off between […]

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[…] drew a lot of commentary. I probably should’ve added the caveat that readers have a look at Women in Love as a prelude to reading Men in Love before posting it, but by far the most disconcerting part of […]

imnobody
Guest
imnobody

@Emma the Emo “So what is the love that men expect, exactly? From the post, it seems a bit vague, but I guess it’s that almost unconditional love? ” I would be happy to have a love who doesn’t disappear when the first problem arises. And it would be nice to have a woman who doesn’t go after my material assets. Nowadays, this is mission impossible. Of course, every woman I have known in my life denies she is interested in economic things. They deny it, deny it, deny it. But they all earn a lot less than I do.… Read more »

00000
Guest
00000

I’m glad I made the choice never to get into a relationship. You men think you’re gods.

lorakeet
Guest
lorakeet

None of this even makes sense according to my experience in life. Maybe it coincides with how I would describe one or two women I’ve been in a relationship with, but not all of them, by far. People are too variable to make this kind of complex generalization and still maintain the guise of intellectual honesty.

People Are People

Generalizations

obmon
Guest

This really is the hardest lesson of all.. I’ve been a MGTOW for 6 months now, and I still can’t get my head past this.. everything I have always wanted.. doesn’t exist. What a waste of my young life.

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[…] […]

Ash Chetri
Guest

Women are naturally selective. So it makes sense.

B2
Guest
B2

I was once really a romantic male. My wife really had me sold on how much she loved me. She told me that she didn’t care about money…and on and on…
Then, I got downsized from the company I worked for through no fault of my own. She did a total 180. She was mean, cold, and sexually unavailable.
Then, a couple of years later, I landed back in a large corporation. She suddenly had an interest in me again.
Screw that…

Maira
Guest
Maira

Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved. Just out of curiosity, how does a man expect to be loved? Apparently, the problem is that women love men for some reasons… for qualities… Men have to be something to be loved. (Correct me if I’m wrong). I sometimes wonder… OK, correct me if I’m wrong, this is just a hypothesis. I do not think the problem is that women love conditionally (that is, they love men for possitive traits). I think the problem is that men love women for nothing.… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

xsplat
December 27th, 2011 at 11:03 pm

Never settle for one. Two is the minimum. Competition improves the service.

M Simon
Guest

obmon
January 31st, 2013 at 5:40 am

Actually it does exist. But only if the woman is willing to bond with you. Odds run from zero to not for long. Mostly.

M Simon
Guest

00000
November 9th, 2012 at 6:46 pm

I’m glad I made the choice never to get into a relationship. You men think you’re gods.

=====

But honey, we are gods.

You eatin’ regular? Got a warm hut and a screen to communicate? Men did that. With the help of a few women.

Clint
Guest
Clint

I find your comments interesting and somewhat factual, however I think you miss the picture. There are people out there who will love through the tough times. I do realize that you must always be on your toes in marriage continually dominating the game with ultra confidence and swagger. Real romantic love does exist and generalization of entire genders is not accurate to say the least. I just believe that we all must realize that love is not about you but rather putting the other above yourself while at the same time making them feel the need and desire to… Read more »

Caprizchka
Guest
Caprizchka

I think that marriage and divorce laws have corrupted the institution, but to assume that all or even most marriages engage in hypergamy is “romantic” a.k.a. delusional. In fact, the “dowry” is alive and well except that in modern days, the professional woman provides her own rather than necessarily being so endowed by parentage. However, the myth is so powerful, many couples act out the charade of the American Dream to impress the Joneses. The fact is, if men didn’t believe that women have an inherently lesser sex drive (otherwise he isn’t “masculine”) they wouldn’t be party to this charade.… Read more »

ana serene
Guest
ana serene

I’ve witnessed plenty of men leave their wives when, all other factors remaining the same, she fell ill or lost her job or lacked in some other way. Men love just as conditionally as do women. I’m really surprised that this particular blog post was written by the same author as was SMV as the intelligent analysis in that post factors in variables sought by each gender. Even if you don’t want to identify what it is that men ought to be bringing to the relationship besides “themselves”, it seems quite unfair and unreasonable to not even recognize that to… Read more »

ana serene
Guest
ana serene

P.S. Maybe this blog should be titled the Male Rationale.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Read the other posts in this series and then pull your panties out of the wad in your ass:

http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/10/men-in-love/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/11/of-love-and-war/

M Simon
Guest

On Women by Arthur Schopenhauer

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/onwomen.html

A real gem – written in 1851.

M Simon
Guest

It is possible for a man and woman to bond. An ecstatic state. But almost all Western women are incapable of the surrender required to make it happen. Despite the bliss. Despite the sharing of tasks. Despite the continual being in love feeling.

Western women want control. And they will give up happiness to get it. Fools.

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[…] I think this is the reason men usually have one or two really close male friends that often go back to childhood.  Very often, that is the one person you can tell all to without fear of being perceived as weak.  In contrast, I do think part of a woman’s love is based on a man’s strength and it wil…. […]

Patrick
Guest
Patrick

GK Chesterton: “Women are the only realists. Their whole object in life is to pit their realism against the extravagant, excessive, occasionally drunken idealism of men.”

To win love from a woman you need to kill your desire for it. Irony. So you can only have authentic love without desire, or perpetual desire without love. Oh well. Love is a luxury.

PinkFluffyUnicorn
Guest
PinkFluffyUnicorn

I don’t get it. I’m a 23yo female btw. Ok………this seems either like bullshit/misunderstanding of reality OR maybe there’s several realities and Rollo just picked up on one only? Or maybe I just have so many emotional issues that my reality is different from other females. Either way, the article just states a theory without proof? How….in the hell….are men the ones to want unconditional love???? Women are the ones who have to stay beautiful and a fucking mystery (i.e. pretend to be something they’re not and never relax/open up) or get tossed out like garbage. Women require the man… Read more »

Hulk Hogan
Guest
Hulk Hogan

PinkFluffy, you sound like you have either been chasing bad boys or suffer from abandonment issues. No, you cannot date players and have your fairy tale haha. What you are describing is nowhere to be found when dating a decent guy.

Caprizchka
Guest
Caprizchka

Hulk Hogan, “decent guys” avoid princesses like the plague. Princesses are ruled by fear of age and death and furthermore, harbor the compulsion to compete with men. It gets tiresome.

Princes, on the other hand, are ruled by fear of age and death and harbor the compulsion to compete with women. Princes prefer to replace the old model with a shiny new one every year or so as compensation for their tiny penises. Princesses castrate.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Princes prefer to replace the old model with a shiny new one every year or so as compensation for their tiny penises

Yawwwwn,….
http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/17/size-matters/

PinkFluffyUnicorn
Guest
PinkFluffyUnicorn

@ Hulk Hogan and others lol Continuation of my venting (even if probably nobody will read this): Nah, I don’t chase bad boys–i do have abandonment issues though. This last guy WAS decent and a good person etc just immature and–as it turns –not AS good as i thought lol decent but kind of an asshole that presented himself as a kind hearted person. Then again–I think he only thinks he is so wonderful is because he is a mama’s boy–and at the same time he is paradoxically insecure in his masculinity (i say paradoxically cuz he sometimes acts like… Read more »

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

In addition to the evidence of the male tendency to impose will on others I posted at an earlier time, I’d like to add a theory as to why the “women=opportunistic” equation of participants in these comments is false. Since sex role stereotypes and gender-based socialization are phenomena consequent to eons of gendered division of labor in which women give birth to and care for children who proceed to develop and individuate in a way that experiences the caregiver as feminine, boys grow up to perceive the opposite sex in and I-Other rather than in an I-Thou manner. That is,… Read more »

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

P.S. PinkFluffy, I think you might want to get used to it. You are in your young 20s, so you have a lot of this shit to deal with ahead of you.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

@Ana, and thank you for your parroting of all the Women’s Studies social convention canards you learned at Sarah Lawrence. Some fragile ego will be along shortly to appeal to reason with you which you will patently ignore due to your ego investment in feminine self-righteousness.

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

Wow, that’s all you can come up with? ad hominems? Sad. Very sad.

PinkFluffyUnicorn
Guest
PinkFluffyUnicorn

@ Ana Still not quite sure what I-other vs I-Thou means exactly but I think I understand your theory. The thing is, I don’t think it’s just males that have fragile egos–women do, too. And I’m wary of stereotyping all men into one category. I’m sure insecure men require less criticism to feel comfortable–otherwise I’m too sure if the phenomena of men being unable to take criticism is an ego one: I used to be in a relationship with a douche; after a month or so he started criticizing me ALL. THE. TIME. Telling me I’m not that pretty, I… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Because I’m feeling charitable:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/09/operative-social-conventions/

Caprizchka
Guest
Caprizchka

PinkFluffyUnicorn: knowing that as a female my value is predominantly based on age and beauty and that men are evil creatures that just want a pretty girl who doesn’t bother them–it is logical for me to fear aging =/

Sigh. You’re wrong. Your value is what you have inside and decent guys know this. Stop trying to be a trophy and you’ll stop attracting trophy collectors. I know, harder than it sounds.

Rollo Tomassi, I’m actually on your side on this.

M Simon
Guest

Pink, My experience is that women will not bond to a man for fear of losing out on a better opportunity. There may be some who will. But I never ran into any of them. None of the women I ran into were willing to surrender – the secret of maintaining a human pair bond. Well, some would surrender long enough to get me in bed for some HOT sex. And after varying times they would break up. And you want to be taken care of but dislike “patriarchy”? Too funny. That was the advantage of “patriarchy” for women. The… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

Caprizchka,

If you can bond and stay bonded your value is ageless. My Mom was able to pull that off with my Dad. It is rare in this age.

PinkFluffyUnicorn
Guest
PinkFluffyUnicorn

@ M Simon ????????????????? I said I’m NOT a feminist–when the hell did I mention patriarchy??? I said I’m angry that feminism took away female privilege. Also–I actually do bond–but mostly because I’m insecure–that’s my problem actually–the whole “overly attached” thing. So again–dunno what everyone raving about! No issues bonding here. Just have issues preventing me from keeping guys even when I accept THEIR issues. @ Caprizchka I dunno, I don’t wanna settle for someone that doesn’t find me beautiful –plus it’s scary to think that their attraction is based on something so fickle as personality–my mood swings can alter… Read more »

Caprizchka
Guest
Caprizchka

M Simon, Thank you. I do believe that I needed to completely eschew television and women’s magazines before I felt secure enough to bond. In case that isn’t clear–I stopped allowing media and other women to validate me. The only validation I need is in my man’s eyes.

PinkFluffyUnicorn, Very profound. Bonding with a man tends to ease those mood swings. A little testosterone in the air tends to calm everything down. Calmness, tranquility, and dedication is far more beautiful than obsessive grooming. Good for the skin and metabolism too!

M Simon
Guest

Caprizchka,

I’m very happy for you. As you well know that bond is better than ANY pleasure drug available. And on top of that you get another human who is devoted to you.

M Simon
Guest

Fluffy, Attachment is not the same as bonding. Attachment is done out of fear. Bonding banishes fear. Caprizchka can explain it to you from a woman’s point of view. Short version – surrender. To make it work BOTH parties have to surrender – but the man is dominant and the woman is submissive (generally). None of the Men’s Rights (MRA) sites or Pick Up Artist (PUA) sites explain bonding. Neither do any of the women’s sites – as Caprizchka has noted. The PUA/MRA sites teach a man how to fake it long enough to get a woman in bed. I… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

Burton/Taylor

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/413820/Taming-Of-The-Shrew-The-Movie-Clip-A-Husband-For-The-Elder.html

There are a number of clips from the movie. “The Taming Of The Shrew”.

M Simon
Guest

The full movie with Czech subtitles:

http://viooz.co/movies/9264-the-taming-of-the-shrew-1967.html

PinkFluffyUnicorn
Guest
PinkFluffyUnicorn

@ M Simon

Okay, I’ll check out those links when I get a chance–but what is bonding then????? because in psychology class they equated bonding with attachment–what is the difference??

If Caprizchka only needs validation from her own man doesn’t that equal dependence aka attachment??

M Simon
Guest

fluffy, Ah. No. Bonding looks like attachment. The experience is quite different. I would say the main difference is that there is no insecurity of “will he/she leave me for another?”. Another difference is “devotion”. Add in “loyalty”. But it is really hard to put into words. If you have experienced it no words are necessary. If you have not, no words are possible. We used to have systems and understandings that sorted these things out. All that is gone. What we have left is a shipwreck. There are treasures in the wreckage. But they are not easy to find.… Read more »

PinkFluffyUnicorn
Guest
PinkFluffyUnicorn

@ M Simon lol I wasn’t going to question your rationality (but omg cool that you worked in aerospace field) It’s funny that you mention quietness and the internal voice–because just over a week ago I decided that the path to eradicating my insecurities is to meditate until I’ve come to accept or find my inner essence–to become ok being alone and knowing that it is the nature of existence to be alone Because as long as I keep running from fear of isolation and darkness etc I will always NEED a union with someone just to cope with life… Read more »

catalinarea
Guest

@ M Simon Ok wow, just saw the clip and read a play synopsis. I am very confused and lost as to what the takeaway that you were driving at is. …That it is better to be with a man that deprives you instead of one that loves you and tries to win you over???? Don’t get which one is the “good” bond you speak of o.O Seems like Bianca is the “attached”, rather than bonded one (since she just didn’t wanna be old and alone). So ….. taming a shrew is bad? And the good bond is the one… Read more »

PinkFluffyUnicorn
Guest
PinkFluffyUnicorn

Sorry – accidentally posted as “catalinarea”, but it’s me–PinkFluffyUnicorn lol

M Simon
Guest

fluffy, There is one trouble with the human condition. You can be objective and miserable or take a “best of all possible worlds” attitude and be happy. BTW if you see the whole play you will find that both Kate and Petrucio come to love each other. Stockholm Syndrome kicks in. That is why arranged marriages (when there was no exit) used to work tolerably well. But you do get it. The key is eradicating fear. I too had a very difficult childhood. If you are willing to face the pain (there is a LOT) you can overcome it. In… Read more »

Caprizchka
Guest
Caprizchka

My significant other and I have an “Open” relationship and that works for us. Yes, I had better keep on my toes because, frankly, I worship him and put him on a pedestal. The religion thing has therefore been satisfied in my heart. He is indulgent enough to allow my worshipping him (he’s actually quite the sardonic, self-effacing type) probably because I’m happy, cooking, singing, and sewing all the time and drop to my knees at the slightest provocation! Of course, most women my age think I’m terribly abused and need my consciousness-raised while meanwhile complaining that there aren’t any… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

Caprizchka,

Decades ago one of my mate’s “friends” once advised her to stop being a “doormat”. For amusement and to counter prior programming these days I ask her “Who are you?” She replies, “Your doormat.” Every time she utters that she gets this dreamy look on her face and connects totally with me. Delicious for us both.

Caprizchka
Guest
Caprizchka

M Simon, Be careful. The feminist state apparatus could use that information against you two by declaring that obviously intervention is required to halt your “abusive” dynamic. I’d tell you what my significant other calls me, but, I try not to aggravate and engage that apparatus. Engaging in the risk of trust between individuals threatens the power of the state.

By the way, I’ve joined your mailing list.

M Simon
Guest

Caprizchka,

Danger lurks everywhere. I see no point to living in fear.

NMM1AFan
Guest
NMM1AFan

What a depressing read. I give up on women.

Fuck it, I’m going shooting.

Teebs123
Guest
Teebs123

I know I’m late to this comment thread but everyone on here who thinks Tomassi is arguing that women are incapable of unconditional love or are incapable of being romantic have missed the point. As I understood it, Tomassi was actually arguing that a man’s love entails several material sacrifices for her that the woman who loves him would never commit to. A man’s genuine “I love you” = “I am willing to die to save your life, work my fingers to the bone and take out a life insurance policy to ensure your financial security, journey to the ends… Read more »

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

Maybe in U.S. American popular culture today, but I think that’s as far as this theory goes.

Teebs123
Guest
Teebs123

Ana, what makes you think that? I have a tough time believing that just as many straight women as men in any culture would endanger their own lives for the well-being of their partners. If you could give some counterexamples that’d be great.

Teebs123
Guest
Teebs123

Or rather, name some cultures in which women are expected to risk their health, lives, and financial welfare to save and protect their men.

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

I know a lot of women in the US who support their men. You have to be kidding.

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/morganbrittany/2013/06/03/are-women-destined-to-overtake-men-in-the-workforce-n1611532/page/full

YOHAMI
Guest

Anna, you’ve got to be kidding yourself.

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

Problem is, as I see it, you guys have historically loved to use money, widely exaggerating claims of support (disproportionately skewed in your favor, to be point of being bullshit) and crying foul when marital assets have to be split equally (you tend to forget that her assets are halved too!), to yield power over women instead of being equal, fair, loving partners (like you all are trying to pretend to be here in this thread for example!). Feminism may have sparked this, but feminism is not the sine qua non of the battle of sexes.

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

Wow yohami… such brilliance blinds!

YOHAMI
Guest

Anna, read the question from Teebs123 and try to respond it.

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

The USA for one.

Ana Serene
Guest
Ana Serene

Read the data and try to understand the facts show that MRAs are simply full of shit.

YOHAMI
Guest

What data, do you mean the article you just linked?

Teebs123
Guest
Teebs123

Ana, I asked you to name a culture in which women who love men are expected to risk their lives, health, and financial welfare to save and protect them. The article you linked doesn’t meet my challenge. Just because there are women in our culture who provide for the men they love doesn’t mean that our culture expects this from them, considering that their jobless husbands are derided as layabouts, good-for-nothings, and not “real” men for not working. Also, your article only deals with women who financially support men, not those who risk their lives and health for them, as… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Teebs123 “Also, your article only deals with women who financially support men”” No, it doesnt. 1400 women interviewed. 40% are single (no men involved), 53% are housebreeders (the 40% singles are included here, obviously), then the remaining 13%, or as the article puts it, a third of the married ones, earn more money than their husbands. There’s no relationship stated between these 13% of women and the kind of support they bring to their husbands. As you know, “earning more” is not a measure of it, doesnt measure love nor compromise, as Anna notes, too, any difference in power can… Read more »

Teebs123
Guest
Teebs123

Thanks for the correction, Yohami. I’m surprised that I didn’t point out that earning more than one’s husband is not the same as supporting him.

YOHAMI
Guest

Plus you never asked about “support”.