That was then


Rollo Tomassi confession time: There was a time when I was in my late teens to right before I was 21 when I would’ve easily married one of my first LTR girlfriends. My Beta conditioned state of mind was such then that I would’ve launched headlong into what would surely have been a tragic marriage based on Blue Pill naiveté and changing the course of my life.

I made a special effort to cover the commonalities of this period in what I called the Break Phase in my second book and from the Preventive Medicine series of posts. It’s a dangerous time for young men feminized and conditioned to put women’s imperatives, ambitions and support above their own. This eagerness to please and put off his own future ambitions (the ones he allows himself to entertain) is the result of an acculturation process that prioritizes identification with the feminine and sacrificial supportiveness of any woman’s ambition he may be paired with during these ages.

Often this is the first time in his life he has the real opportunity to prove his dedication to a girlfriend by arranging his life around her goals – goals that are based on her own acculturation of female empowerment and entitlement. Sometimes this drive comes from a young man wanting to out-support the performance his father dismally failed at with his victimized mother, but mostly it comes from a thorough Blue Pill conditioning that assures him the old set of books are the rule set women can be expected to follow.

This is the crux of it; he is at his most eager to please while she is just coming into realizing what her sexual market value peak can leverage for her. Don’t assume that this leveraging is strictly based on securing things for herself, but rather what her impulses are leading her to. The time at which young men are their most ready to be “the perfect boyfriend / husband” is usually when young women want monogamy the least. Young men’s Blue Pill idealism is generally unblemished by having it betrayed at this point.

When I was passing through this time I was ready to suspend, postpone or simply abandon the ambitions I wanted for myself then just for the prospect of securing a girlfriend, wife, LTR, stable and lively source of sex and intimacy.

How could I not? I’d been conditioned my whole life up to that point to believe in the Disney fairytale that had me believe if I could just do more for a woman, be more like a woman, be sensitive to her feelings, and do everything in my very limited power to help her achieve her dreams she would appreciate the effort and the sacrifice and reciprocate with her own genuine love, sex and devotion to me.

Naturally the Blue Pill had convinced me that men and women shared a mutual concept of love and that my burden of performance was only based on how well I could help a woman rise above the horrible injustices that my poisoned gender had ruthlessly perpetrated on womankind in the centuries before I was born.

I’m thankful I was spared from the worst consequences of that delusion. I know too many men today who did just what I would’ve then. Most are on their 2nd or 3rd marriage, with kids from the first or second and still wondering how it went so wrong for them. They all either forced that fantasy to happen for themselves or paired with a girl who simply hadn’t come to understand her SMV during that period before she said “I do.” Almost to the man, these men’s wives went through what I describe in Making Up for Missing Out.

It’s not to say that I didn’t take the sting of rejection during that time, but I’m glad to have been rejected in light of so many men’s experiences for making their Blue Pill dreams come true.

Wait For Me

It’s ironic that the time at which young men are most eager to put on the yoke of what the Blue Pill has conditioned them for is the same time women want it the least. As I mentioned in Dream Killers:

The truth however is that the longer you remain uncommitted, the more opportunities will be available to you. It’s been stated by wiser Men than I that women are dream-killers – and while I agree with this, I’d say this is due more to the man involved, and their own complicity and apathy, than some grand scheme of women.

[…]Women are dream killers. Not because they have an agenda to be so, but because men will all too willingly sacrifice their ambitions for a steady supply of pussy and the responsibilities that women attach to this.

I recently read a forum post from a young man who was lamenting his ‘friend zone’ state with a girl. I had to laugh because I’d heard his ONEitis girl’s exact same words, verbatim, when I was about 19 or 20. She said to him,

“You’re such a great guy, but I’m not ready for a relationship right now. How about this, if neither of us is married when we’re 30 we’ll get married, ok?”

Hearing this negotiation now at 47 I have to laugh sardonically; it’s the same ‘deal’ I’d been offered at 20. At 47 I can see the machinations behind it – “Hey Beta chump, I like your dedication to the Disneyland narrative, and you’ll make for a dutiful and lucrative supporter once I’m 30 and done with the Alphas I really want to fuck while I’m in my prime, so how about you and I get married once I’m ready to finally ‘get it right with the right guy who was there all along’ okay?”

In other words, wait for me and be my Plan B guy just in case, ok?

What makes this unfunny is that at 20, young men want to believe the best of women. They want to believe she really thinks he’s so special she wont be able to not marry him and fulfill his Beta programming at 30,…so long as he’s patient. He wants to believe her earnestness because to do otherwise would be to judge her, and that, he’s been taught, is the worst thing a man can do no matter what choices she makes. What makes it unfunny is he actually considers it as a viable option for his life.

What also makes it unfunny is that on some level of consciousness this negotiation, this very long game, is something a woman pre-plans in her head. She knows at 20 years old that she’ll need her Beta-in-waiting. It’s not serendipity that she’ll find a Beta ready to out-support and out-forgive the other guys of her “crazy mixed up past” or her “journey of self-discovery”, no, she has it planned a decade before. It may not be a conscious acknowledgement at the time, but the expectation is there long before she comes into her SMV peak and the years just before her Epiphany Phase.

Beta Idealists and the Endgame

But at the time, young men want to believe it. There’s a certain satisfaction in the prospect that the ‘happily ever after’ will be fulfilled in the future. Of course during that time it’s vital a man disabuse himself of that fantasy, become Red Pill aware and see the ‘deal‘ for what it really is – an insult to him.

For my part that came from not wanting to wait around and learning how to get laid like I wanted to. That period of my life had some great moments as well as some pit of misery ones, but I learned, I grew; and had that girl actually been unmarried at 30 instead of a divorced single mother of two when I got there, I still wouldn’t have married her.

It’s an insult to a man’s masculine nature because it presumes he’d in any way be an attractive choice for his steadfastness. Any guy who’d even entertain the insult only confirms his Beta, optionless and destitute status to a woman who’s already planning to follow the dictates of her Hypergamy. He’s the sure thing, and his Blue Pill conditioning would convince him that his burden of performance is predicated on his perseverance, when in fact it just verifies him as a guy who Just Doesn’t Get It.

Again from Dream Killers:

I tend to promote the idea that Men should be sexually and emotionally non-exclusive until age 30, but this is a minimal suggestion. I think 35 may even serve better for Men. The importance being that as a Man ages and matures in his career, his ambitions and passions, his personality, his ability to better judge character, his overall understanding of behavior and motivations, etc. he becomes more valuable to the most desirable women and therefore enjoys better opportunity in this respect. Women’s sexual value decreases as they age and it’s at this point the balance tips into the maturing Man’s favor. It’s the Men who realize this early and understand that bettering themselves in the now will pay off better in the future while still enjoying (and learning from) the opportunities that come from being non-exclusive and non-commital make him a Man that women will compete for in the long term.

One of the first things I have to explain to a young guy about the Red Pill is that what he believes is so vitally important to him in the now will be rendered meaningless in only a few years. I can only try to explain to him how his idealism about holding together his now long distance relationship with his high school girlfriend will change and decay, but at this age and with his Blue Pill conditioning it’s very hard to communicate.

The Break Phase is an all or nothing prospect when it comes to helping a young man unplug himself. Unfortunately it usually takes the trauma of a breakup (made all the worse due to his investment in a Blue Pill fantasy) and confronting the reality his girlfriend is experiencing in college and her coming into her peak SMV years.

What he lacks is the insight and experience to fully grasp his situation. One reason the Sandbergian plan for Hypergamy reaches its limit around a woman’s Epiphany Phase is because it’s at this critical point that a man can more or less be expected to be a better judge of a woman’s character – or at least that’s the anxiety that the Wall engenders in women.

This point also coincides with a woman’s SMV decaying, whilst his is on the ascent to being realized. There’s a lot riding for her on a man remaining ignorant of the Game that’s been played for the past decade. Ironically it’s this same ignorance, the one she needs him to retain for so long, that makes him unattractive and ultimately unsuitable as long term prospect she can be aroused by or respect.

Thus we see the infancy of this anxiety in her earlier years when she asks her “perfect boyfriend” to wait for her until she’s ready for him to serve her necessity. She plans ahead with the ending in mind.


Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

294 comments on “That was then

  1. “You’re such a great guy, but I’m not ready for a relationship right now. How about this, if neither of us is married when we’re 30 we’ll get married, ok?”

    It won’t surprise you or most of your readers, Rollo, to know that I’ve heard almost the exact same thing verbatim from Christian women in that age bracket. Some of the ones that I’ve heard say it I think were serious about avoiding fornication. They just had other plans to have fun and “live for themselves.” If anything, I think that Christian women are more likely to plan and plot for this than secular women.

  2. Being 35 now, thank god i didnt get married (or have kids) and only had 2 committed LTRs, both sucking badly. I had women lining me up when I was late 20s to be their BB Husband but I guess my instincts at the time made me run.

    Like your book stated, I literally got crushed when I was 31 and that ripped me out of the matrix because nothing made sense. Had a red pill mentor that let me go in the correct direction and nudged me slightly if I started being retarded.

    Now being 35 (single, career, no kids, never married), finally getting it, and unbreakable frame, I cant swat them off me (The married ones are just as bad). The sad part is seeing with your own eyes that a majority of women aren’t worth a shit. Also now, I can spot womens’ game before they even know they are going to do it. You hit the nail on the head in your book with that guys in my position.

    I have left several of your books at Starbucks and Barnes and Nobles Coffee Shops and hopefully fell into the right hands

  3. “You’re such a great guy, but I’m not ready for a relationship right now. How about this, if neither of us is married when we’re 30 we’ll get married, ok?”

    My (hungarian-turned-american) single-mommy-strrripper-roommate just said that a month ago to me, on her 26th birthday (minus the tying-of-the-knot) hahaha oh boy, i brought it up again.. she said she would want to live together to raise a child.. platonically…

    I started laughing and told her “youre out of your mind”

  4. M MAXIM #35: “Men remember being boys. Man has a lucid perspective in comparing the diminished affection of his adulthood to the greater bounty of his childhood. Women do not experience such a significant loss of affection. As such, man is forced to realise he will never again be loved so profusely, for the boy gets his fill, but man loves the most to be loved the least. The profundity of maternal love is longed for, but forever gone. A girlfriend cannot provide that and is loathed to do so should a weak man demand it. This is perhaps the bitterest of all the pills.”

  5. The Times of your childhood and early adulthood are so important…one mistake in that special time of a men’s life and everything get’s fucked up.

  6. Im 25 and have been spinning plates for a while. Ive got an awesome girl right now, the first one out of the last 30 or so that I actually view as a wonderful human being (while still remaining cognizant of AWALT).

    Its a red pill conundrum for me to decide when to “cash out”. I avoid oneitis and game successfully. Seems like most guys are happier waiting until late 30s to have kids if they want to.

    The only thing that has been bitter for me about the red pill is letting good women go, when the time comes to stay focused on my mission. When do you stop doing that? Peak SMV?

    Im more concerned about starting a family too late because my father didn’t have me until he was 45. Now he’s too old to do much of anything…timing is everything I suppose.

  7. Man this constantly hits home, just had a friend cancel a wedding at the last minute (cost them, the parents, $20,000) because their daughter decided at the last minute to back out because she wants to “find herself”.

    She has been in a LTR with her now ex-future husband since she was 15 (pretty sure he took her virginity) but decided now 8 years later after just graduating from college that it’s time to make up for lost time and hit the alpha cock carousel. Kind of surprised me … but should not have.

    What I do not see in this article though is a solution, sure a guy may hit his peak at 35 and can snag (if he plays his cards right) a much younger woman for a LTR/marriage. But if he runs the same risk that happened with my friends in that the woman, up until she hits the wall, can at any time bail (with cash and prizes) and there is not a thing you can do about it. So you’re choices are still 1) marry a young woman at the peak of her SMV and accept the high risk that she blows it up or 2) marry that just about to hit the wall used up slut at 30 something and accept the emotional baggage and low to no sex life that you’ll probably end up with or 3) become a continual player and give up on ever being in a LTR.

    All I can say is modern life sucks.

  8. In addition to being on a steady diet of blue-pill courtesy of their parents and greater social group, which even if they end up ignoring, the young man of today must prepare for the ritualistic drowning in the modern blue-pill indoctrination center that is the modern university. A one-two punch if you will, which few men can escape from unscathed at such a young age. If current trends are extrapolated even conservatively, the succession and speed of punches a young man must dodge is consistently increasing.

  9. Every male must see the ‘deal‘ for what it really is – an insult to him

    Without “The Rational Male” book volumes, he will not know.

    Today, millions of men are aware because of Rollo Tomassi.

    But there are billions more males that do not
    see the ‘deal‘ for what it really is – an insult to him

    Time to fix that.

  10. “Im more concerned about starting a family too late because my father didn’t have me until he was 45. Now he’s too old to do much of anything…timing is everything I suppose.”

    The younger guys here need to read this over and over and over again. I, as the 44 year old late comer to all this, am well and truly fucked as far as the family thing goes, and without that there is no point to an LTR/marriage. As well, for the whole spinning plates/STR thing the reality is younger women are not on the whole interested in older men,* the few that are will be highly sought after, and the guys that get them will the best of the best of the best. Welcome to the game on ridiculous difficulty setting.

    The rewards diminish rapidly after you turn forty, but so does your peer age competition. Unless you’re actually looking for epiphany phase lane changers, or those just smashed on the wall, you better have higher than average libido to deal with noticeably less attractive dating pool. And you better have a high tolerance for or find amusement in crazy because that’s a guarantee. The baggage comes in a series of old steamer trunks prepare for heavy lifting.

    Now as bleak as that sounds if you’re in your mid 30 there’s still time. If you’re in my situation, well it’s actually better than it was as in the drug induced haze of blue pills, but the divide between the possible and the likely is much greater than it was 10 years ago.

    *I refer y’all to sccriblerg’s commentary on younger women for the straight dope.

  11. One of the only times where forward time orientation and abstract thought is evident in females is when it comes to resource procurement.

  12. @Gunner
    Its seige war fare. Is a race to the
    bottom. Who ever wants it more loses.

    How you describe it, its already planned.option 3 is the lesser of the evils. The women continue what they do in thier FI and hope you are so hungry and that there are enough women that follow the same strategy that you break and go for option 2.
    With the game set and parameters you elude to, adjusting a mans choices (option 3) makes the game gets to a point where its not a 30yo women but now a 40, 50, 60, ect…

    Its seige warfare.

  13. I’ll say it again.

    Younger guy today (18 and older) needs to plan on 3 LTR’s and at least a child from each. At 18, find a lawyer you trust who is young (and can stay with you for quite a while) as well, and keep him on a retainer. Best money ever spent.

    Cease worrying about how you will be judged because
    A. don’t matter
    B. you will not win and be seen as a shithead no matter what
    C. refer to A and B above

    Think generationally FORWARD as opposed to behind you. Generals are always fighting the last war. Ol’ grandad wouldn’t be able to function nor succeed in this ill culture, so quit worrying about what he would think.

    Understand women are a entirely fungible but your kids are not.

  14. At 45, you can still easily have a family but you need to get your ass to Eastern Europe. At 40, I’m still banging 20 somethings but I see your point for the most part. These girls are feral cats that bounce from Alpha to Alpha. LTRs with them are ridiculous so get a couple bangs and hit the next alley/dumpster to find more. Stay far away from any broad over 30 as you are spot on.

  15. ” . . . the time comes to stay focused on my mission. When do you stop doing that? ”

    You can sleep when you’re dead.

  16. It’s amazing how the gender flipped version of this I’ve never heard of happening. Anyone know any guys who said to a female friend “if I’m not married at 30 let’s get married”?

    Imagine what would be going on in the typical young girl’s mind if she heard that.

  17. @Tilikum

    One of the only times where forward time orientation and abstract thought is evident in females is when it comes to resource procurement.”

    As with logic, women are perfectly capable of forward time orientation. And they use it only when advantageous to themselves.

    Men will only abandon either when to have them is disadvantageous.

  18. Is the girl seriously expecting him to wait for her for 10 years? Or is she just politely dropping him without totally crushing his hopes and expecting him to get over her over time and move on?

  19. I remember this dynamic well. Part of it is wishful thinking, part of it is the nervousness of a young man unsure of his ability to make choices or be decisive. He wishes some girl could do the work for him, or at least share it. The Disney Princess narrative feeds upon the wishful thinking, feminism fuels the wish for a girl to be decisive so he doesn’t have to.

    One of the things that attracted me to my old one-itis was the sense that she was a take-charge, decisive sort of person. She liked to give off that vibe, especially professionally, because it made her feel more in control of her life. So I was surprised and distressed when she started talking about how she ‘didn’t want to lead all the time’ and wanted to ‘be the girl’ in a relationship.

    I got over it quickly because I discovered how much I liked her acting feminine when I acted masculine, but I think that can be a real stumbling-block for boys – learning to be responsible for decisions, for acting, rather than following another’s lead.

    Related (h/t to Yohami, may his blog rest in peace):

  20. I’m pretty much echoing gunner451, I think. But I want to put it in my word and a few thoughts.

    First, is the implication of marriages (or at least the couples who married later, still stayed together all that time) people praised of those married young and lasted (and lasted well). If my comprehension is correct, those marriages and relationships sounds impossible. Do you imply that they are an illusion (as in they don’t exist and the ones we praised when we hear and see are just fake – this would means couples we praised of the “old days” as well as more recent examples)? Or perhaps improbable (odds so stacked that taking account of them is pointless)?

    Second, is what gunner451 is expressing but I view it a little differently. As you noted in the past, you don’t give prescriptions, just descriptions. But, the problem is not just dealing with 3 options that implies crappy options of high risk, marrying to a crap deal, or resigning. It’s to be not be desired in the way we want to be desired.

    Now, you are probably about to put that “Women in Love” post. Or a different post in the similar vain. But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m talking about avoiding being that guy in the “Beta in Waiting” post versus being the guy that really inspires her. Reaching 35 and reach “peak SMV” – at least in the way gunner451 has framed – leaves 3 main options. Except, to some debate about taking the younger girl (depends on the context on how the younger girl wants him), none implies being the one genuinely desired.

    Your post (summarizing to check my comprehension) is about noting the phenomenon of young men ready to commit to their sweetheart with many of those girls telling them to wait. How it fits to the Red Pill and the cock carousel dynamic. But I cannot help but noticed a few other implications that noted above.

  21. @kfg

    Agreed. That wasn’t worded well. I mean stop hoarding all my money and being 100 percent focused on my career/being a Don Juan haha.

    I know they say “to the victor goes the spoils” and that men always have to adapt to win (have children in this instance).

    Im curious to hear more about people’s decisions of when they rationally decided to settle down and marry to raise a family. Not something Ive seen in the sphere yet. Like what made Rollo decide to stop spinning plates and finally settle down, just a gut feeling about the woman? If there’s a link someone post it please!

  22. This article sparked a memory that I had long forgotten…My LTR at 21 turned to me one day out of the blue and said, “I wish we would have met at 30.” I didn’t understand what the hell she was talking about as we were talking marriage and the whole bit. I was getting by on good looks and some Alpha characteristics but had no clue the Rules had changed. This was the mid 90’s, btw, and you could still throw out some provider game without screwing yourself completely. Shortly thereafter she detonated the engagement and said she needed to “find herself through transcendental meditation” and went off to college to bang dudes. I was devastated but as Rollo states, it was a turning point in how I looked at women….Flash forward to now, I’m 40 and she’s married to some 400 lb dude and she looks like hell, having hit The Wall years ago with a hard splatter. I dodged a bullet.

  23. I made lots of such “deals” with various friends when I was in my late teens/early 20s. It was effectively a way to hold out a promise to marry a girl that you knew you’d never have to actually follow through on – sort of in lieu of being official boyfriend/girlfriend.

    1. Posted this on the last thread, but it seemed relevant here.

      Conversation I overheard from two of my pour girls:

      “Would you sleep with a guy on the first date or the same night you met?”

      “Not if I thought he was relationship material.”

      Trust me, they plan.

  24. @Big Al: “That wasn’t worded well.”

    I also quoted very selectively.

    “Im curious to hear more about people’s decisions of when they rationally decided to settle down and marry to raise a family. ”

    Never. It is a distinctly irrational decision. Bear in mind also that while you may be able to raise a family, you cannot have one. The family, such as it is, is hers.

  25. @gunner451 1:47pm

    “What I do not see in this article though is a solution, sure a guy may hit his peak at 35 and can snag (if he plays his cards right) a much younger woman for a LTR/marriage. But if he runs the same risk that happened with my friends in that the woman, up until she hits the wall, can at any time bail (with cash and prizes) and there is not a thing you can do about it.”

    The only reason to get married is to have kids, and this means right away, honeymoon sex is for fun and to get her pregnant. Not planning kids that fast, don’t get married. Now while she is pregnant her SMV is lowered (except bigger boobs early), and after birth the combo of lack sleep, breastfeeding, and extra pounds will have her less interested in men (including you). After the kid is a year old, the risk is back, and you can’t keep her barefoot, pregnant, in the kitchen. However she has a mom’s body now, and her SMV is lower. Repeat soon (the kids will be able to play together) and you have lowered the risk as long as you haven’t let yourself go. If other women are not interested in you then you have.

  26. corypheus
    July 20th, 2015 at 3:28 pm

    “It’s amazing how the gender flipped version of this I’ve never heard of happening. Anyone know any guys who said to a female friend “if I’m not married at 30 let’s get married”?”

    Now tell me whether I’m fucked up, but I did long ago, only it was age 40. I forgot it already, but she reminded me a few weeks ago when we talked about my birthday, so we are still friends. At that time I was deeply BP but had already discovered something was wrong and I wasn’t interested. I don’t remember but I guess I said it as a flirty joke or something, not thinking anything. She worked hard to get me then, including her escalating by putting her very big boobs right in my face. Nice girl and one of the least crazy ones I got to know. But I still don’t have any intention to marry, no worries.

  27. As well, for the whole spinning plates/STR thing the reality is younger women are not on the whole interested in older men,* the few that are will be highly sought after

    About 25% will prefer older men, 25% same age, and the rest don’t care. It’s a big pool. I’m considerably older than you are and I get IOI’s all the time from 30ish women.

  28. “About 25% will prefer older men, 25% same age, and the rest don’t care. It’s a big pool. I’m considerably older than you are and I get IOI’s all the time from 30ish women.”

    That’s for short term sex not for long term relationships. The number of young Anglo-American women interested in an LTR with a man significantly older than her is relatively small. There’s no way around the fact that if you want to wait till your late 30s early 40s to marry an early 20s girl, you had better be very rich, have great genetics, age well, have excellent status, and have an excellent personality with a great understanding of female psychology (ie game). Very few guys have that total package.

  29. @10×10 5:31pm

    “The number of young Anglo-American women interested in an LTR with a man significantly older than her is relatively small”

    based on what?

  30. Oddly I have only heard it once – back in the mid-70s – and not addressed to me. A presentable woman aged about forty with whom I must have worked was saying in a group that she had a wonderful husband but wish that they had met later. I was not really in any doubt as to what she was implying and thus I thought she might be on for some extra-curricula sex.

  31. BP, I have no doubt that Rollo would label himself “beta” at this point, since he wants a family. I’m an empty nester, but I’m not ready to abandon Mrs. Gamer. Too much history and she gave me her best sex. She can also make some tasty sammiches. Call me “beta” too.

  32. @Forge The Sky:

    As with logic, women are perfectly capable of forward time orientation. And they use it only when advantageous to themselves.
    Men will only abandon either when to have them is disadvantageous.

    Pithy. I’m going to remember that one.

  33. Off topic but Rollo (And other commentators), have you any advice on dealing with girls who end up getting clingy?

    Turns out even my mediocre game has had some effect…

  34. At first I thought Rollo was condemning himself. Then I realised it’s about knowing what your doing.LTRs are mostly for women.We majorly want sex and kids.Since sex is so easy,do it only for the kids.I would add that its stupid to marry someone who took onother’s stick for whatever reason,but I guess I’d be condemning many of y’all.3.5 billion women can’t all be non-virgins in their prime.After the hussle of becoming highest value in your thirtees,next remains the hassle of choosing an actual wife.I’ll never marry a slut,no matter how much “that’s just the way it is” red pill is swallowed in the manosphere.Maybe I can’t will the war,but I’d definitely win this battle of mine.If stuck between a rock and a hard place,no one forces you to kill yourself.

  35. Im glad I found Rollo and this blog at this young age(21). It has changed and altered my life completely. I’ve left college, moved out and broke up with my girlfriend in the matter of a week. I want to share a few words here.

    You know what bothers me most about my past? It’s not destructive relationships, my lack of ‘getting it’ with girls etc. What frustrates me the most is that I gave up my passion and wasted my talent in sports in order to pursue an education – a path of live that was steered toward achieving the interest of other people and not my own. I felt like a complete failure once I saw this. I didn’t care about having barely enough money to buy a sandwich, or that I recently finished a B.Sc in Eng.Physics. It was that I, as Rollo mentioned, sacrificed my ambitions and dreams to the long term provisional aspect of women without really being aware of it. It came crushing down on me and it’s the worst feeling I’ve ever had.

    I remember saying to myself “What the hell am I going to do now with this degree now? A full time engineering job? No, my expenses are pretty much nonexistent! Future house/car/girls/family/shit? Nah, not really something I am going to engage in NOW. Besides, I value my time much more than spending it doing work”. People tend to have such a skewed concept of what things cost: The tend to see it only in terms of how much money is being paid without even reflecting to what they are really paying.

    I found myself a job at the nearest Burger King. Working 4 days a month. New shoes, sports apparel and a 12 month gym membership. A new project was crafted; the season starts in 8 months.

    3 months to go.

  36. As the Chicks Suck Guy once explained to a girl on his rejecting her similar offer:

    “Let’s say you like peanut butter. I mean you really like peanut butter and want some right now. But you’ve got none in your pantry at the moment.

    You go to a store to look for peanut butter, but they’re fresh out. You hit another store, same story. You hit a third store and they have peanut butter but they’re only selling it to someone else right now. If you’ll just stick around long enough though, they might like you enough to let you buy some peanut butter later. Would you stick around, hoping they might like you enough to sell you peanut butter some day?

    Hell no, because you want peanut butter right now.”

    1. This was from a comment on the TRP sub:

      Imagine if a hiring manager said something like this to you: “You look like such a great employee, but we’re not ready to hire yet. How about this: if you are still unemployed in 10 years, and we’re ready to hire, then we’ll bring you on board.”

      In any other context, this sort of deal would sound completely ridiculous. It goes to show how sexually desperate a beta can be when he is young.

  37. Her version:

    “That’s a sweet offer, but to tell you the truth, I really don’t like your peanut butter very much. I’m going around town to sample peanut butter, but I’ll tell you what, if I can’t find any I like, I’ll come back and steal yours. K?”

  38. [“Im curious to hear more about people’s decisions of when they rationally decided to settle down and marry to raise a family. ”]

    “…Bear in mind also that while you may be able to raise a family, you cannot have one. The family, such as it is, is hers.”

    uh huh – my One True Love made the ‘choice’ for me – The LTR [Long Term Relationship] at 23 took ‘my’ seed and decided to gestate and birth ‘my’ child then leave me for the next best man – repeatedly – forwarding addresses back to me along with the Child Support charges from where ever her new place and new man were located.

    As per various district attorneys presiding over the states and counties wherein she might choose to reside, many miles away and without even a DNA test, I was notified that if I don’t pay the demands that I’ll get locked in a cage… men with badges and guns showed up to enforce the Feminine Imperative and legal authority… that was my first introduction to Red Pill reality. ‘That was Then’ ~ Back when I thought I was Alpha Fux ~ Turned out I was Beta Bux.

  39. “In any other context, this sort of deal would sound completely ridiculous.”

    And in the present context it is deeply insulting.

  40. I always hated this type of shit when girls said stuff like this to me. But I never knew why until I found the manosphere. I actually thought I was crazy or something like “why doesn’t everybody else get offended by this stuff.”

    Thanks god I had enough self respect to tell these bitches to fuck off.

    Rollo you are the source man. I feel like out of everybody in the manosphere you bring the message with the most clarity and without any hate.

  41. Rollo, on to your point about the Beta waiting for “his woman” to come around at 30
    … How do you describe the dynamic when the beta suddenly pulls away, gets annoyed with the games, and all of a sudden the woman wants to be with him? Can a beta running away speed up a woman’s end game per se? Or does his pulling away and ability to do his own thing show enough alpha qualities to peak her interest? Its interesting that often the backup plan becomes the only plan she wants as soon as he leaves, regardless of her hypergamic stage.

  42. If you ain’t worth her time right this second, then she ain’t worth your time ever.

    Don’t do it if you’re 25 or 35 or 45.
    The system is beyond repair.
    Even if you find the “unicorn” don’t do it.
    A virgin is not a guaranteed loyalty , that virgin will one day peek out through the window.
    Use game, use prostitutes, use anything to get fucked but never commit.
    Women marry betas (sorry folks) and fuck or fantasize about tingle guy.
    Do you want to experience the first true nature of women? Try to stop the burden of performance with your Mama.
    Don’t dwell about the nature of women, it is what it isn’t.

  44. Sun,

    “If you ain’t worth her time right this second, then she ain’t worth your time ever.”

    The best test anytime by any man, for any woman, any age, any time. (Now if I could just stick to it.)

    Somebody forgot to flush…last thread, 6:23…. sorry.

  45. Rollo, you’re about to be very busy with the chumps that played second choice, sir.

    37 million accounts. That’s 10% of the US population. Incoming Divorcalypse.

  46. Longgone: Somebody forgot to flush…last thread, 6:23…. sorry.

    = “Let’s you and him fight” ~ Lonegong


  47. (This may be a re-post since my first one didn’t go through or got stuck in moderation.)

    Once again, “Women are the only realists; their whole object in life is to pit their realism against the extravagant, excessive, and occasionally drunken idealism of men.” by G.K. Chesterton comes to mind here.

    I knew women were very calculative and different from men in terms of short-term/long-term mating when I had my first fling in college sober(!). We literally met in the library and met two more times there before i fucked her in the parking garage. I knew that If I could get her drunk I would have fucked her sooner but i didn’t have the resources for it at the time (we were both 18year old freshmen). I had 5 girls before her (the typical high-school relationship stuff) and she easily topped them all. She was very sensual in bed and always liked me berating her and beating her while we had sex. I say this because she would later reveal something to me after I broke it off.

    A couple of months later, she contacted me via text to see how I had been. By now, she had two boyfriends and she said that she missed me. For some reason, I knew that she was only contacting me for a sexual escape. I won’t bore you with the details but she stated that both guys couldn’t satisfy her, they weren’t aggressive enough, and they just didn’t turn her on at all. What was kind of shocking at the time was when she revealed that she was never really into them to begin with. It didn’t make sense to me at the time but now I get it.

    We had a conversation and she said something along the lines of, “You were never boyfriend material. I knew that when I first met you. You’re the kind of guy I can have fun with and let loose completely. I like being with you because you are fun.”

    Many more flings and relationships after that, and I began to realize that a lot of women compartmentalize you right from the get-go. They will either place you in the Alpha or Beta category. While you may persuade her by your actions or words into a more favorable light with her (you being the top Alpha) most women will constantly hold a static view on what you really are to her based on the start of it all. Whether it’s because of your look or the circumstances, that’s completely up for debate.

    Nonetheless, It is vastly important to base your future dealings with her on how you guys met, fucked, and talked the first time. The first of everything you do with her (the kiss, bj, sex in general) and her excitement (or lack there of) towards it will foreshadow your future with her. I don’t re-call Rollo or Heartiste covering this topic specifically and directly but if there is a post, I would appreciate a link.

  48. Sounds aboot right Chad. Kinda makes me smirk when I think of Roosh claiming to be alphapha, but then stating that he doesn’t care if the broad he’s with enjoys the sex. Too many supposed alphapha’s like this, can talk great but fuck like shit. No woman getting laid by a guy like this will ever put him in a Winona Light.

  49. I didn’t tell her, but I pretty much did the “I’ll marry you when I’m thirty” to a woman; and proposed to someone else at 28, who turned me down. I proposed to the “when I’m 30 woman” whne I was 30, and got turned down.

  50. Redlight, gender is a meaningless social construct, but you already knew that!

    . But the chart does show age. the “best” age to marry, for less chance of divorce is late 20’s to really early thirties.

    You’re welcome.

  51. @DeNihilist

    That article is nice except for a few problems. First, the low point seems to be around 28 or 29 rather than the bare minimum of 30 nor 35. Keep in mind that anyone who does get married should know that person longer than a few months, ideally years. So getting married at 35 still entails knowing someone at 32 or something, at least. Second, it’s the WaPo. A site the manosphere has repeatedly bashed for the feminist line and make anything they write suspect inclduing this one even though (I think you are spinning) to support Rollo. Why? Because, third, most (Western) marriages marries still roughly close to each other in age. Yes, there usually a gap… but usually like Male 35 to a Female 32 or a Male 30 to a Female 28. Largely meeting being that safety guy just before the wall and showing who she really likes barring she somehow went with no one all those years. In a different manosphere context, we would be bashing this article citing “of course divorce goes down, they hit the wall and have no better options!”


    That said, I got a few more thoughts since my last post. First, I pose these thoughts to hear back counter-arguments and see new views. Not to voice against Rollo despite (borderline? I like to think I am rather than sound like downright dissent) I’m sounding that way.

    From the highlight above, it seems the best reason why we should wait to 35 is we will have a better “judgement of character”. Other reasoning still important too. But one thing came to my head. Part of the reason why shouldn’t go for exclusivity earlier is because the women don’t want exclusivity with exception for beta bucks – basically the women are worthless for anything more than a fuck and thus being that alpha to get the fuck. Becoming that maturated man allow one to be in demand, but isn’t it pointless if the women are a bunch of epiphany phase or post-wall women with younger women still just wanting the carousel?

    This is where my comprehension says that Rollo doesn’t mean that black and white. That – ironically – the NAWALT have some validity and judgement of character plays in. Either, if younger, a women who not just going for the carousel. Or a woman genuinely contrite of her past. Or I think.

    That, or I need a clarification.

    I want to also note. I’m not going to refuse the possibility of my motivation to question as less than critical thought. But I like to think part of this motivation is how even today, I just hear a news story of people living to old age noting their theories to their own longevity. One man credit his deceased wife whom he married over 60 years.But plenty of manosphere people have brought up the success of their parents/grandparents. Most does not involve working with peak male SMV. And basically trying to reconcile them. There are ways, I have thought of some – different time, people were raised to be alpha, outright beating the odds (luck), but I feel the posts kinda doesn’t give room for that. Nor explore them except in the example of the grandfather still trying to impress even near death, the war brides citing hypergamy within the Greatest Generation, or the grandmother feeling relief at the grandfather’s death (or was that a comment, I can’t remember which post was that)

  52. Her – ” You’re such a great guy, but I’m not ready for a relationship right now. How about this, if neither of us is married when we’re 30 we’ll get married, ok?”

    You – “Yeah totally! In fact, marrying when we’re 30 might be rushing in to things. How about this, if neither of us is in a relationship when we’re 75 we’ll move into the retirement home together and be bridge partners, ok?”

    Or just burst out laughing and walk away.

  53. I have a question more than a comment. There are girls who at some point suddenly flip. They display Cluster B traits, but one of the biggest “obstacles” to moving forward with these types of girls is their insistence that:

    “I need someone to take care of me”.

    “I won’t be this good looking forever and need someone who will take care of me…”

    That sort of thing.

    When I hear this…I shut off and disappear for a few weeks and it’s usually the beginning of the end of this relationship.

    I don’t know how to handle this better or whether to handle it at all.

    In my pre-game days, my instinctive response would have been: “I’m a good guy, I DO take care of you…”

    Occasionally it’s:

    “Be more of a gentleman”…

    But this vague idea of “taking care” of a woman….has now become something so distasteful to me…that it’s the kiss of death for any relationship…

    I can’t see how women want a guy to take care of them….I honestly cannot fathom this. The girls who have recently said this to me…could take care of themselves just fine, they had jobs, dressed well, often cooked and did stuff for me….but then insisted I be the one to “take care” of them.

    It’s a turn off now. I can’t even consider building a life AROUND a woman, it’s all about me now. The girls who are in my rotation are ok with this….they have their own lives but are quite feminine when we are together.

    Thoughts on this “Take care of me” meme?

  54. The age’s between 27 and 30 are subliminally the most stressful for women as the realization sinks in that they must trade their ‘party years’ short term mating protocol for a long term provisioning strategy.
    It’s at this point that rationalizations of ‘living a new life’ or ‘getting right with herself’ begin to formulate;
    not as a result of guilt or conviction per se,
    but rather as a function of relieving the anxieties associated with the new reality that she will eventually no longer be able to compete effectively in the SMP.
    The writing’s on the Wall;
    either she must establish her own security and provisioning,
    or settle for as acceptable a provider as her present looks,
    personal desirability and sexual agency will permit to secure a man’s long term provisioning.

    ~Rollo Tomassi
    from “The Rational Male” (Volume 1)
    page 122

  55. @Chad
    “Once again, “Women are the only realists; their whole object in life is to pit their realism against the extravagant, excessive, and occasionally drunken idealism of men.” by G.K. Chesterton comes to mind here.”

    Nice. He wrote many wise things. I remember a likewise saying by Tolkien:
    “It inculcates exaggerated notions of ‘true love’, as a fire from without, a permanent exaltation, unrelated to age, childbearing, and plain life, and unrelated to will and purpose. (One result of that is to make young folk look for a ‘love’ that will keep them always nice and warm in a cold world, without any effort of theirs; and the incurably romantic go on looking even in the squalor of the divorce courts). Women really have not much part in all this, though they may use the language of romantic love… Anyway women are in general much less romantic and more practical.”

    It must be something about England that the discrepancy between idealistic and practical is most pronounced. Perhaps Victorian mores screwed them up. In non-English cultures there’s much more male practicality. I can say Red Pill is nonexistant in Russia, because we didn’t have that idealism to begin with. The term “alpha male” in relation to humans is always used humorously (example for your bilingual enjoyment:, and there are no such words as “golddigger” and “hypergamy” because that’s just common facts of life, lol. Everyone wants the most suitable mate possible… big deal, a man is just as “hypergamous” as he evaluates the status of a girl’s father and family connections he can profit from.

  56. Talking of women planning ahead; one of your much older posts had a real golden comment in it – I’ve tried to find it again but haven’t turned it up:

    A trainee doctor was pretending to be a military contractor to get girls – when she found out his status she says “I’d never have slept with you straight away if I’d known”. Absolute money shot.

    Shame you can’t search comments – it was a joy to read.

  57. Imma play devil’s advocate here.

    I had much the same situation happen to me, getting locked to a relationship at 18. I got a Whif of Jif and went all just like described above. I was lucky enough to be somewhat of fuck up and had to go in the Marines. And that was like a warehouse that stored me until a later time.

    I had written all this up and I inadvertently learned some magic keystroke combination that said “Delete everything and redraw the page.” So it pissed me off and I don’t want to retype it all.

    But older men tend to “Fight the last war” and advise men on what to do based on things that were when those older men were young.

    There was a pussy surplus when I was young. It started to dry up, slowly, but so much for me. It started to get severe right about the time that Rollo was 20. A guy up in the higher ranges of male SMV didn’t maybe feel it as bad as some others.

    But mark my word, as time passed those guys aged 40-50 today began to feel it goddam bad. You name any aspect of Manosphere bitching about the behavior of women, divorce, attitude, flakey, greedy, etc and the core root of it is the sex ratio that those guys experiences. We in the manosphere been at this for five years now. And the root group that does most of the bitching are those men 35-50, that group that experienced the teeth of a bad sex ratio. And that sex ratio has flowed like river through. It changed from screaming about bitches in divorce to screaming about the flakey behavior of women in dating situations, to the shit behavior in clubs, to now no women anywhere.

    And it gets no better for anyone younger. Maybe even worse in ways. The birthrate really started dropping in 1963 and in 1973, once those boomer girls were around 18, it really started sucking. All took pills and after Roe V Wade, they had abortio for a backup. And since then birthrate has been on a slow downward slop, every year fewer children born, meaning MORE OLDER MEN.

    Now take youngblood aged 20 today. Born in 1995. Then look time forward in Birthrate. It started really sucking in 1998 and there were two troughs, 2002-2004 (Dot come bust) and 2007-Present. A 30% decrease over 1995, so low went to really low. And then look behind him, there were a ton of men born (relative to the numbers for his year), and those are White men. And then younger than him, far fewer White girls, with more minority births, mostly Hispanic making up a higher percent than in years past. And then add then what high percentage of those children are genetically overweight and obese. So that creates a triple, quadruple whammy for that young fellow.

    It is going to get far more worse for him that even today. And today fucking sucks. Here is ALLCAPSBRO’s tweet thread today. You don’t have to get too far down into it before he begins to harp on this constant theme of thirst, numbers, and bitchy female attitude due to sex ratio.

    Young people are segregated by age until 18 and don’t feel this reality. And they sort of bungle up together for a couple of years after. But at 18, they go one of two ways, they go off to college or they don’t. If they do go then they are within that artificial environment that compresses young people together, actually with a favorable ratio for males given who attends college together.

    But then after that, for both groups, probably earlier for the non-college people, then that shit ends. And those hordes of men get at those girls, all thirsty, all offering shit, all kissing their asses, all with those hungry male gazes.

    And so what us older guys experienced is not going to be anywhere near what that young guy is going to go through. They are going to go through a pussy desert far worse.

    And there will no reprieve from it when they get into their 30s. If he thinks he is going to swim in young tight 20 somethings merely because he had reached peak SMV, then he needs to look at the birthrate for 2010-2015. It fucking sucked. The years 2013-2014 were miserable and the news all jumped for joy at FINALLY an increase of (drum roll) .5%. Yeah, happy days are here again. And I don’t know if you been looking at the beasts that have been pushing strollers for the past five years, but let me tell you it wasn’t pretty. And neither will the vast majority of girls in their 20s once our current Youngblood gets into his prime SMV time.

    We have entered into a new sexual regime where at least 40% of men are going be excluded from having a significant sexual role. They are condemned to literal worker bee status. It could be worse than 40%. My instincts tell me that you are fucked if you are not either in the top 20% of attractiveness or in economic status. So that sort of says to me that probably 70% of men are somewhat compromised.

    ALLCAPSBRO had this string of tweets where he said, “Look, my advice to people is just be hot. And for guys, hot means just be tall. And for girls, just don’t be too fat. That’s what being a hot girl means today, not too fat.” And he bemoaned the state of “Safe guys”, and how fucked they were. So the shit is going to get worse. And given the lack of anchors in the lives of girls coming up, the shitty example of women today, the future girl’s behavior is going to be ridiculous, far worse than even how based and awful it is today unless there is some sort of massive backlash in the next few years. And even then, the market reality of the sheer number of men vs women creates an imbalance of sexual capital and power for them.

    Now frankly, for most Youngbloods, this issue of a young girl wanting to lock them down probably won’t even happen. Most are going to be fucking the crease in the couch or having dates with Miss Sock. And they face a life of involuntary celibacy.

    I propose that if you get a girl that you can lock the fuck down when are very young that you should lock her ass down. Let me list some reasons:

    (1) Marriage was and normally still is (even though people don’t really consider it to be so anymore) a financial union. When I was young in the 70s, it was a sound way to be a young adult. Both people worked. Most people’s parents didn’t have a ton of shit to give them. So young people married, got a place, often put shitty borrowed furniture in it, and then sat in the motherfucker. Saturday Night Live had its greatest heyday where 70s young married couples sat home, broke, on a Saturday Night with some cheap as bottle of Strawberry Hill Wine and some $20 dollar an ounce pot. Maybe another couple or some unmarried friend came by. And if a motherfucker had some trim and some pot, he could get by. So then little by little, these couples built a life. They had a sense of stability. A lot of them divorced. But usually it was so early, no big damage was done. We are in a similar time. Things suck for young people today economically. If you could lock down a woman. And then do what was necessary to be a viable partner and maintain the marriage, your fortunes will improve.

    (2) I have been married for about a year, and with Kate since Nov the year before. I was divorced for really about 10 years and sort of in limbo for even longer. I went to Colombia a bunch in that time. And most of the female contact I had was due to that. Then for really about the last 4 years before her, I just went Monk. At 55, I just couldn’t see a point in fucking with women anymore. Since marrying, there have been some significant biochemical affects. Oxytocin is a cure all for a lot of shit.

    But the biggest thing to me is end of depression. Depression is caused by accumulated social injury and loss. And you are injured and suffer loss in manners that you don’t even realize. Here is a fucking subtle one. You walk past a girl. You look in her eyes. And she just cuts her eyes away, fuck you, you don’t even exist. Or you go to checkout at the supermarket and you know the fucking checkout girl is measuring you and dismissing you. A fucking checkout girl. Somebody in the last post asked me why I though Testosterone was so low in men today. I say this shit, the diminished social position of men, the shit they have to eat every day, the little defeats they have to accept.

    When you are married, you take less of those ass whippings from women. Something happens to you. Your wife is like a shield that defends you from women. You emit some scent or something. You stopping looking in those passing girl’s eyes. Or at least you stop giving a shit. You get doses of Vitamin P(ussy), you get vasopressin, you get dopamine. Yes you can get Cortisol but it seems that vasopressin holds it in check as long as you are with the woman. And you get access to the girl circle because you are married. You no longer have the creep threatening status. You have pre-selection. Your masculinity develops because you are feminated. Femination is the effect of ONE woman on a man. Feminization is the effect of all women on men. A feminated man is less apt to be affected by feminization. And this is the normal state of men, to be feminized. Nature and your biochemistry rewards you for being in a bonded pair relationship. He becomes normal, he develops socially, emotionally.

    Now, back in the day when I screamed about Never Marry, Pump Them, Dump them, I was looking back over my shoulder at my life, growing up in the 70s, really comes out into adulthood in the early 80s, and entering into hardcore Married life in early 90s. It was a time of abundance, in girls when I was younger, and in economic opportunity when I was in adulthood. You are not ever going to face a situation where jobs are plentiful and all the night clubs have a 50/50 male/female ratio just jammed full of HB7s that are forced to wait in line to get in. You are not going into bars where there are tons of tables with four single girls setting there, all with the desire to get into a monogamous relationship. Your life is going to be entirely different.

    So I propose the idea of the Starter Wife. That your game is “If you aren’t interested in Marriage, then fuck the fuck off.” Fuck that’s your opening line. “I am for fucking real and you aren’t then fuck off. I don’t have time for anything that isn’t real.” It’s sort of cutting edge bad boy in a way, this idea of wanting marriage, children, adulthood, of insisting that you are going to be the man and she is going to be the woman.”

    You needn’t be afraid of divorce. Back in the day when I used to comment here I said this sort of version of Bob Hoskins as Nikita Khrushchev in Enemy at the Gates, “That men need to stop shitting in their pants at the sight of a woman. Oh God she’s gonna use that devil hypergamy on me.” You have learned every fucking thing you need to know to play that game from reading Rational Male. You play being a husband using a variation of what the Military calls the 12th General Order. General Orders are these 11 orders that cover behavior on Guard Duty. The 12th is this informal one:

    “I walk my post from flank to flank and I take no shit from any rank.”

    So if she wants a divorce after some years of being married in your 20s, so fucking what. Get lost bitch. You got through what will turn out to be a shitty fucking time for most of your peers. Marriage is stabilizing, regenerative, a period of growth. Your young years are exposed to females that are probably more attractive that what you will probably encounter later in life. Most men later will find them dispersed and find themselves in situations with a makeup that reflects the general demography of the land, mostly older, fatter, uglier, more disagreeable, and in more difficult and socially penalizing for men. It really maybe your most advantageous time to hook up with someone attractive. And it maybe your most advantageous time to “have reproductive success”. If you do have kids and she leaves, and you are young, your child support is set really low compared to what it would be you married in your 30s and she divorced you to out and EPL in your 40s.

    My shit is good right now. I have the life of much younger man. Divorce worked out for me. It took some time but I am sure that I am probably happier now than I probably would have been had I not divorced. It wasn’t my choice to get pushed out. But it did work out for me. And frankly I think it will work out for any guy that marries in his 20s and then gets divorced 10 years later. He is a “house” that is built solid after the physical benefits of 10 years of marriage, of lowered depression, of regular sex during his 20s, or occupational growth. You don’t have to shit on every “dream” you might have to do so. You just have to be hard nosed about following them, at least hard nosed in your career development.

    You should be like the woman that says, “I been dreaming of this divorce every since I was a little girl.” And do the same thing. Marry, plan for a divorce that could very well come. And when it does, if you have learned anything from this site, you’ll be ready. You’ll know all the signs, understand her mentality, and be ready to do the manosphere version of Conscious Uncoupling and not be a patsy about it.

    Your 20s and 30s are not your father’s 20s and 30s.

  58. The article is spot on. When I was 25, my gf at the time who was 18 decided getting more and more distant towards me, until she decided to break up over the phone; suggesting we go our separate ways, “Sample other fruits” (Her words) and maybe meet up again in the near future if our planets align, which I’m sure they will when she’s decayed and past her prime.

    It was the catalyst that took me on the epic journey that has made me transform into the man that I am now at 31.

    I made a promise to myself to never again fall for the same bullshit that I always fell for over and over again when I was growing up. Enough was enough as they say.

  59. Good post Rollo. Haven’t read all the comments yet, but here goes…

    I get why it sounds good in theory to wait until you’re 35 or so to commit, but the reality is more complicated. I got married at 32, kiddos were born at 34 and 36. Pros and cons to this timeline (hell, pros and cons to having gotten married in the first place). Bottom line is I’ll be 54 or 55 by the time my youngest graduates HS. Still plenty of life to live at that point, but won’t have the kind of time frame my parents had when their kids had all graduated HS by their mid-forties.

    I look at these guys around my age (48) still having kids and I’m like, whatever floats your boat. I ain’t goin’ back to that stage of family life and don’t want to be fooling with under 18 y.o. kids when I’m 65. Each guy has to decide for himself what his own time frame is.

  60. Dr. Helen has a post up today on how “research” shows that marriages undertaken in the early 30’s last longer.

    I asserted the research is fatuous because divorce dynamics are not equal for men and women. IOW, women trigger most divorces. The study therefore depicts which cohort of women, not men *and* women, are most likely to divorce. The married men are just along for the ride.

    By waiting until they’re in SMP decline, these 30-something women lean in and scoop up their beta drafthorse. The women have more opportunity to do due diligence on the best available choice, and apparently there are enough men out their to comply with their AF/BB sexual/marriage market strategy. They intuit or understand that their ability to pull Hawt Guys is in decline, and the material comforts that they gain by staying home and “starting a family” are obviously harder to replace.

    Thus they are less likely to terminate the marriage. This is really just a restatement, then, of Rollo’s thesis here: They plan.

  61. You’re spot on BuenaVista. There’s really no winner at the end of this.
    The only way you can secure a marriage is if she’s way past her prime or has very few options as far as her smv can provide for her.

    In effect, you have to marry down in order to get the peace of mind you’re looking for, which still isn’t guaranteed considering how divorces favour women most of the time as well as having access to the welfare state.

    In effect, we’re screwed whichever way we go.

  62. As a beta bucks guy with an alpha fucks brother I’ll give a tip to the younger guys to spot female beta bucks seduction.

    The female beta bucks crocodile death roll seduction is balls to the wall neotenous behaviour, low energy, demure, drawn out softer speech, withdrawn posture, humility, lowered eyes, deferential, chase me behaviour and practically shouts out ‘take care of me’.

    It’s like cat nip to betas.

    Contrast this with alpha fucks arousal, high energy, quick speech, eye contact, fun, giggling, proactive, engaging, talkative, spontaneous and practically shouts out fuck me.

    It’s truly an eye opener to watch a woman switch frames literally within minutes.

    Rollo is right, they plan, boy oh boy do they plan.

  63. Johnny, I agree partially. I’ve seen times where a woman will give mixed signals–she can’t figure out whether to pursue AF or BB. And a man’s marital status matters along with the environment. A woman generally won’t overtly chase a married man in her social circle. In a club, she might behave very differently away from her friends.

  64. @Johnycomelately

    Haha, exactly. I’ve only recently realized that women behave seductively to both alphas and betas, with different intentions.

    That shit works too. For the longest time I fell for it, if I started pulling out of beta orbit with my old one-itis she would turn up the childlike chase-me seductive behaviors and I’d just be like, ‘huh, maybe my ALPHA ALOOFNESS worked! Maybe I still have a chance!’ Or just, ‘Look how cute she’s being, I’m getting teh MEGAFEELZ.’ Lol.

    Thing is, I have experienced how she actually acts when she wants you to fuck her. It’s totally different. It starts with the giggling/high energy stuff, playful hitting, baiting your innuendo, and so on, and then turns into almost a sullenness where she just kinda locks on to you – she gets in your way so you bump into her and she grabs you, or she just locks eyes with you, or lips. She finds a way.

    And if she’s pulling beta seduction game? It’s all about coyness. Shame on you for making things sexual, I’m not that kinda girl, is that all you think about, or she’ll guard her body from yours, literally jump away if you touch her.

    Watch what she does. Watch what the end effect is of her seductive behaviors. Like Rollo says, a woman who wants to fuck you won’t confuse you. She’ll find a way to fuck you. And, if you watch how you actually respond and end up as a result of her actions, she won’t even confuse you when she’s trying to make you her beta bitch. Cause you’ll start acting like her beta bitch.

  65. asdgamer

    I mean, yes, she’s not gonna lock on to ya in front of her friends. But if you isolate with her you’ll get the whole picture.

    In my experience, unless alcohol is involved, girls will act totally unseductive towards you if they’re around friends and turned on by you. There might be some tells but they hide that shit. Then they find a way to isolate if they can. Then boom, the cat’s out of the bag and stuffed with 9 inches of Chad Thundercock.

    And a beta will never believe such a thing could happen. Where’s the negotiation? The hesitation? What is this feral creature? God, where’s the childlike coyness?

  66. Excellent post.

    This post is extremely important because it directly attacks and unveils the truth precisely at the most crucial point in a mans life to understand and accept this reality.

    My twin brother married his first wife under these beta conditions. She LJBFed him for literally a couple years but his miserable persistence “paid off” and earned him an utter living hell that lasted five years. Thankfully they had no kids. Although she was quite attractive, she wasn’t able to capitalize on her hypergamy very well due to her horribly spoiled rottenness and stupidity that most men regoginzed immediately for what it was. But not my brother as he clung to the blanket and sucked the thumb of blue pill beta idealisim. He only weighed 135 lbs at 5 foot 10 at 20 years old, quit college, moved back in with our mother, took a full time job, all to live nearer to his fantasy bitch. He did end up with her after a few miserable years of chasing her and married her when they were both 23 only to endure five more years with her of total insanity and bullshit. He wasted these years of his life on a miserable “relationship” with this bitch and permanently (I think) damaged himself. When I consoled and advised him at my mothers request, he sobbed and said “all I ever wanted to do was love a girl” it was pathetic and sick.

    Meanwhile, I remained in college working construction and paying my way through and body building. I started college at 130 lbs 5 foot 10 and graduated 27 years old 185 lbs, 7% body fat, benching 315 lbs, squatting 405. Many people have said over the years that I resemble Tom Selleck. Several girls have asked me if I ever thought of being a model. More than one of my wife’s friends have told her “you married a hottie”. I was a bad ass.

    My brother had the same genetic potential as I but he did not develope it during this very crucial period of life. He had the potential but it didn’t show. People often asked us if I was the “bronze” and he was the “brains”. He usually responded that I was both. Just after my college graduation my brother was going through the divorce, still weighed about 135, did not have a college degree, (he didn’t get one for several more years), was very depressed, suicidal, angry and miserable. He is doing much better now although we do not speak.

    It is vitally important that teenage boys and young men understand and accept these realities. Not respecting the truths here, is a certain path to destruction and disaster. There is no guarantee of happiness in life. We all have a “tough row to hoe” no matter what our circumstances. Although I worked very hard with much focus and dedication and was blessed with good looks, my life is not without disappointment, regret, and frustration as you can easily determine from most of my comments on this blog. However part of my life, how it contrasts to my twin brothers and the fact we are twins, is testament to the truths Rollo and others are expressing.

    All of this is especially extremely important for young men to understand and accept. If you are young, you especially should pay heed to all this. It also applies to all of us at any age. Do not neglect yourself at any age. Do not waste your time and energy on any form of blue pill or beta idealization. It is self destruction. Remember this unavoidable truth:

    When you make someone else your priority, you also make yourself their option to do with you as they please.

    Why would you want to make yourself any woman’s option when she should be your option?

  67. I am glad my wife cheated on her boyfriend at the time to be with me, ending / starting with the classic, “You’re place or mine” in the cab (her words) on our first biblical night together.

    Why get married? for me, I have to admit it partially seemed like the thing to do, it was a script I was following in general terms and I looked at the timing and was concerned that if I wanted to have kids I didn’t want to be using a walker at my kids graduation. I was acutely aware of younger and older fathers and how they interacted with their kids and I didn’t want to be getting back strains picking up a baby when the time came.
    That having been said, I was prepared to take my time to make sure the fit was right. Wife would be sad to hear that I was never madly in love with her during our courtship. I did romantic things because I was good at it and it made her happy not because I was besotted. I am glad this was the nature of our courtship in retrospect. It left me with ample perspective to continue to evaluate her as a long term mate, as a genetic material partner, as a prospective mother and so on.
    We dated, we eventually lived together and after 3-4 years of successful and fully tested cohabitation I finally sealed the marriage deal.
    While I had been accidentally red pill during our courtship, including spinning the odd plate, I became fatally blue pill following our marriage. Nearly killed the whole show. Thankfully I found the red pill and saved the whole show.
    I must admit it makes me sad to see the required cynicism of young red pill men today with regards to marriage. To Rollo’s point it’s not entirely a rational decision to get married, there are compromises involved. when it works its pretty cool, when it doesn’t, it feels like chains and bars upon the soul. Net net, I think I am better off for being married. A big part of that is my children. That may be a rationalization but I do enjoy them quite a bit. I look at may cad Alpha playa older brother and I am confident that I lead a more fulfilled life that he does and marriage is a big part of that. It keeps me more centred and grounded in a good way.
    I now know enough to be able to manage my marriage proactively, meaning manage hypergamy coming and going. This is either self delusion on my part or at least it lets me sleep at night not worrying about her texting frivorce lawyers etc. It takes work but its worth it on balance.
    Marriage, if successful does confer benefits upon both or all parties. Happier well adjusted children, better health both physical and mental for married people, more stable and better finances over the long run. It’s not for everyone, but it can be good if dealt with properly.
    Note: As a young man I enjoyed plenty of Alpha times with easy ONS’s, feral young ladies, plus LTRs etc. I experienced my fair share or 50 shades of women and came to understand that “scales of their emotional and behavioural expressions” in all of its best and worst forms. I felt deeply in love and besotted with some and just down right horny with others. I was deeply burned by some and indifferent to others. All of that gave me a good platform of personal experience to build upon.

  68. @walawala

    Thoughts on this “Take care of me” meme?

    “Take care of me” is chick for “Be my Beta Bux”. It’s a provisioning shit test.

  69. @Johnycomelately

    In your experience. Do you note some girls having some kind of consistency – aka personality. When you said of girls switching from coyness to bouncy-excitedness brings some implications to me. Do you mean to be careful of extreme demureness (and awareness of extreme excitedness) as calculated acts. Or implicate that any girl who act with some demureness is all false.

    I’ll throw an example. One person whom I would put more on the side of coyness. Not really on the extreme side, so not described in the posts above – I mean I have seen and can imagine acting toward excited and stuff. But I would note constant nerdy klutziness and vibe to be on the endearing feeling that is produced from coyness. From what I can tell, she always act that way consistently. Any behavior can be viewed as a sexual strategy, but I wonder if you view the example above as an act or her personality.

  70. @ Forge

    Where’s the negotiation? The hesitation? What is this feral creature? God, where’s the childlike coyness?

    Yeah, negotiation sucks. Hesitation sucks. Feral creature? Mrs. Gamer, lol. She’s all hands.

    I’ve got a recent field report where coyness was involved. My ex-dance partner (XDP) was acting coy last Fri. (I freeze her out because she has flaked on me in the past & didn’t apologize.) She was talking to other people in my field of vision, facing me, obviously watching me out of the corner of her eye. Jumped in to a mixer after I did so that she would rotate to me. I jumped in late, trying to avoid her, thinking that she wouldn’t join. No such luck. She was upbeat & smiling & greeted me with a happy tone attempting eye contact. I was flat and minimal and avoided eye contact. She joined another mixer, positioning herself so that she would get to dance with me. (Half of the women in the mixer didn’t dance with me because there was an even number of couples.) She positioned herself in a line dance so that she would be next to me. A friend of mine joined and was in between XDP and me.

    XDP’s latest d1ck showed up halfway thru the dance with his main squeeze and diverted XDP’s attention away from me, which was welcome. XDP showed the classic signs of alpha attraction for her latest d1ck.

    Towards the end of the dance, XDP got more desperate. She was standing on the dance floor by herself and smiled coyly backwards at me as I was passing by her. (She had positioned herself where I would pass by her on my way back to my seat.) I ignored her. Finally, as I was walking back to my seat, she positioned herself near my path again, standing by herself, and tried the dominant eyegaze. She stared at me for five seconds with brows raised until I passed by. I ignored her. She didn’t care who saw the drama! Subtlety be damned! Coyness be damned! She figured that she could just dominate me to pay attention to her, heh.

    This same broad has told me in the past that she doesn’t have issues with other men like she does with me and that she doesn’t want me to text her and that we don’t need to dance together. I told her that Idc if other men are clueless and spineless (better was “lol”). (I had refused her requests to dance for a couple of nights prevous to this.) I was happy to break contact and delete her cell no. from my Contacts and de-friend her on FB. (I didn’t tell her–I just did it.) I’m sure that she didn’t expect that. She was trying this coy 5h1t and it failed. I froze her out. So, she will likely recalculate and try another hook-a-beta plan, which will bore me. She won’t be able to gin up attraction for me, so she won’t show any alpha-seeking behavior towards me.

  71. @walawala

    Wala: Thoughts on this “Take care of me” meme?

    Sun: “Take care of me” is chick for “Be my Beta Bux”. It’s a provisioning shit test.


  72. The answers lie in Rollo’s second book where he discusses women’s menstrual cycle. Their preferences change according to where they are in their cycle. There’s no longer any mystery as to why women behave the way they do.

    The truth is – Women have no clue about what the hell they want.

    I’m still fucking my exgf over a year later having broken up with her and her trying to frame control the situation about how she doesn’t like having sex for the sake of it. Yet here I am receiving unsolicited sex text from her about sex positions and what we like.

    I’ve basically come to the conclusion that women have no say at all about the seduction process. All they can do is either let is continue to cut it off. But any guy has the potential to get in with them regardless of looks, social status or how much money you have… It all depends on how strong your frame is.

  73. Everyone wants the most suitable mate possible… big deal, a man is just as “hypergamous” as he evaluates the status of a girl’s father and family connections he can profit from.

    It seems this misunderstanding keeps coming up every so often.

    Once again — hypergamy is not “optimization”.

    Everyone tries to optimize.

    The difference between hypergamy and optimization is where the “floor” lies for attraction to exist.

    In non-hypergamous optimizers (i.e., men), the “floor” of attraction, below which they find women unacceptable from an attraction point of view, lies below their own level of attractiveness. This is why male 8s will have ONS/FWB with female 6s and 7s.

    In hypergamous optimizers (i.e., women), the “floor” of attraction, below which they find men unacceptable from an attraction point of view, lies above their own level of attractiveness, and this is even more pronounced for short-term liaisons (i.e., some women will accept a man of relatively equal attractiveness for a long-term relationship or marriage, but not for a short-term relationship). This is why female 8s will never have ONS/FWB with male 6s or 7s (keeping in mind that what makes a male a 6 or 7 or 8 is not solely, or in many cases even mainly, his looks, but also his status, his persona, his social power projection and so on).

    So, yes, men and women will both try to find the best they can get. But women will not pick men who are below them in attractiveness for either short or long term liaisons, whereas men will and do so all the time. That’s the difference between hypergamy and optimization.

    1. There are always going to be ‘pretty lies’ women will want men to believe. The recent ‘Dad Bod’ nonsense and Sheryl Sandberg finishing off her infamous Open Hypergamy quote with “…in time, nothing’s sexier” without a hint of irony come to mind.

      Those pretty lies serve two purposes; first, to comfort the Beta and keep him compliant in his servitude when his woman gets hot for the Alpha he isn’t, and second, to shit test his belief in them to reconfirm that he Just Doesn’t Get It.

      The “wait for me in 10 years” line is a pretty lie that serves the same function.

  74. “I dodged a bullet.”

    Unfortunately, a young man is much better equipped to dodge real bullets.

    I’ve had a handful of serendipitous encounters over the years that have given me valuable glimpses into what might have been.

    A HS GF, who at 18 was already painting the ponies on the carousel, had chewed through my beta wiring in a matter of months. The painful lesson was instructive as to the opportunistic and hypergamous impulses driving women, though I would not internalize that knowledge until much later in life. Sigh.

    So when she returned to me after her first semester at the state U (I was a year younger) as a woman now out of her element (too much competition), I knew it had nothing to do with ME, but rather her desire to consolidate her sexual power back in the small pond where she still saw herself as queen.

    Of course she was bent, as I had moved on – to a younger and hotter (though likely BPD) woman who would be my next lesson. Namely, that from an early age, women are well aware of their own virgin/whore dynamic and how to manipulate men with the fiat currency of their sexuality. I.e. what will one day be “mistakes” that “made her who she is today” are almost exclusively comprised of conscious decisions in the moment to capitalize on her sexual power to get something she wants, usually something nuzzled up to her ego.

    I was beta provider all the way. So for me, her virginity meant no sex until (insert conditions here.) But for my friend who was right-place-right-time a few months later her V-card was worth a few sips of Strawberry Hill and ten minutes of bragging.

    Fast forward five years. I run into the small town beauty queen at a bar in the big-ish city nearby while on holiday with some friends. She’s puffed up 2x. Almost didn’t recognize her. She clings on me immediately. Starts in with her story: “I was engaged.” “to a Navy Seal, but it didn’t work out.” “I run my own business” “Own a house..” Luckily we were changing venues so I didn’t have to endure for long. Yikes.

    Young men should desire to be the one that got away or one of the “mistakes” that will one day make her “who she is today.” Aspiring to become a BF – as was the programming I was living in my youth, is just an e-ticket ride into the dream-crushing deep-blue of the disposable-man.

    Sure, they know its bullshit that in five or ten years “we should totally get married”, but its not ALL bullshit. Women collect men; they are consumers of relationships, resources, and even ideas, as in “I fell in love with the ‘idea’ of you, but not with ‘you'”. So she files you away with the others until something tickles that idea of you in her and then she goes fishing. see: facebook.

    A pre-epiphany woman exists in a magical place. You as a person will never be in it; you as she experiences you (aka how you made her “feel) is all that matters. We can’t change that, but we can control how much of us is consumed in this dreamstate in order to give her those feelz.

    So I give them what they want: an idea of “me” that either suits the current storyline of their fantasy world or is so different that they are dumbfounded. Ideas are cheap so she can consume all she wants. My brick and mortar world has no joy for consumers.

    But of course they all want more. And by more I mean they want to seize what what they can from me in order to facilitate the next chapter in their story. So now I use their own lines on them. I tell the younger women that if they haven’t found the commitment they want in five years, to look me up, but right now I am too busy building my life to give them what they (don’t really) want. “meet you at the space needle in five years…”

    At this point, It seems like I know their life-plan better than they do. I know the 28 y/o sees marriage as an impediment to her full expression, sees commitment as something asked of her, is not interested in kids “for quite some time”, and is too busy swimming in sexual options to be able to see the tide going out. Summary: she is just not “ready”

    I know the 38 y/o “made some mistakes” along the way, is desperately trying to convince herself she doesn’t need a man, is “learning to be content” aka alone, aka she’d rather be alone than endure mediocre sex from a less-than hawt man, and yet still clings to the same idea of a man as her 28 y/o self did. Summary: she is finally “ready”.

    As an older man I see their timeline in full view. They are all exceptions. And when you line up all those exceptions in succession, you get the rule: AWALT.

  75. I need some advice on a personal situation. The readers of this blog are the people I want to ask, but there is no associated forum to the best of my knowledge. Are there any manosphere forums that meet this need? AFVM is too purple pill for me.

  76. Razorwire, your post above should be entitled – part two of this whole post. Shit, talk about putting a cherry on it my man!

  77. @razorwire –

    loved your comment.

    They are all exceptions but also they are all expendable because the exceptions provide the variety we all desire.

  78. Is This Thing On?

    Just ask here. you will receive a lot of advice and some of it will be excellent. You have nothing to loose.

  79. DeNihilist, thanks. Unfortunately a young man can only dodge so many bullets if he is programmed to run toward the bunker. I didn’t really wake up to these truths until I had bled out.

    NBTM, well the older I get the less I seem to find that variety; the differences, especially within the Iphone generation, are becoming increasingly subtle. But yes, an optimistic eye would see the differences for the pleasures they bring in terms of variety – and the power of knowing in that so much sameness also means interchangeability which means abundance.

    That said, one of my challenges is striking a balance between my world and the outside world, which is to say, extracting more enjoyment out of having to step into this magical female playground to sort through them.

    Its like stepping into Groundhog Day. Rise and shine. She’s going to say: “I used to hook-up a lot, but now I’m ready for a relationship:, in three….two….one…

    I’ve gone through the phases. Disbelief (this shouldn’t be happening). Denial (there is something wrong, with me). Destruction (toaster in the bathtub). Delusion (I am a god. Maybe there aren’t any gods, just people who have been around so long they just know everything.) Acceptance and embracing the good of it remains more fleeting than I’d like.

    The challenge is to find (and leverage) the positive aspects of this reality:

    “I wish I had met you when I was older.”
    I still want to f*ck other guys.

    “I wish I had met you when I was younger”
    I still want to f*ck other guys, but at least I could have quit this shitty job ten years ago.

  80. When a man says, “I wish I had met you when I was younger”,

    he means, “Before the crows feet, 50 extra lbs. of cuteness, 5 kids by three different baby daddies, and dead eggs, ”

    When a man says, “I wish I had met you when I was older”,

    he means, “So I wouldn’t have to pay off your 6 figure student loan.”

  81. @Razorwire: ” . . . women are well aware of their own virgin/whore dynamic and how to manipulate men with the fiat currency of their sexuality . . .”

    If they don’t have a good grasp on this by the time they are about 6 years old you should worry if they are mentally developing properly.

    No, they don’t understand why it works yet, but they certainly understand that it does.

    @Rollo: “The “wait for me in 10 years” line is a pretty lie . . .”

    I will never understand this one. It is patently a very, very ugly lie that only gets uglier should it turn out to be true.

  82. “When a man says, “I wish I had met you when I was younger” . . .”

    . . . he means, “Jeeeezus! I hope that beast doesn’t follow me around, blowing my chances with the college freshmen.”

  83. @Mark Minter

    “We have entered into a new sexual regime where at least 40% of men are going be excluded from having a significant sexual role. They are condemned to literal worker bee status. It could be worse than 40%. My instincts tell me that you are fucked if you are not either in the top 20% of attractiveness or in economic status. So that sort of says to me that probably 70% of men are somewhat compromised.”

    In 2012 23% of men over 25 had never married. If you adjust for gays, who couldn’t or didn’t want to marry, that means over 80% of non-gay men over 25 had married, and of the rest there are lots who are fucking and fortunate not to have put a ring on it (see comments on this site). To think there will be a huge jump to “where at least 40% of men are going be excluded from having a significant sexual role” is silly.

    What is happening, and what Rollo’s article is partly about, is that many men will only have a beta sexual role, which is still a significant role, since it produces children or is roped into providing for them.

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