The Wall

Not to belabor the fresh input contributed by new Rational Reader ‘S’, but her recent comment regarding The Wall has made me aware that I haven’t yet gone into too much detail regarding the Wall and its socio-psychological effects upon women:

Yeah, it’s a term I have seen before arriving at this blog but have never heard in reality. I always attributed it to a woman losing her looks but to place it at exactly 30 seems to me to be too precise a calculation…as there are many variable to be taken into consideration I would imagine. For example, a party girl, serial tanner and smoker could probably lose her looks long before she reaches 30, whereas a clean living late bloomer might not even realize her potential until her mid to late twenties. I’ve seen women from my school..the most popular girls (with guys) changed the most in a negative manner and the nerds or just the most unexpected girls have become more attractive over the years. It’s freaking odd.

The infamous Wall a woman reaches (or slams into as the case may be) is somewhat of an ambiguous term that was actually coined by catty women long before the manosphere came into existence. It used to be a relatively less combative term that women used for one another in an effort to disqualify a sexual competitor. A woman implying another woman had “hit the wall” was marginally more polite than calling her a slut, but the latent purpose is still the same – disqualifying a sexual competitor from men’s mating considerations.

The Fear of Decay

Underneath the obvious utility of the Wall as an epithet is a more painful truth; the inevitable decay of women’s sexual appeal – their first, and for most, only, real agency of power they’ve ever actualized over men to ensure their long term security needs. In the heyday of 2nd wave feminism, the sisterhood’s message was all about collective empowerment and solidarity, but beneath that was the intrinsic hypergamic need to compete for the best mate their looks and sexual availability could attract. As I’ve written before, women prefer their combat in the psychological and there are few fears women harbor as deep and as long as losing their sexual agency with men. They know the Wall will eventually come, and they don’t like to be reminded of it.

Women’s intrasexual combative use of the knowledge and fear of the Wall did not go unnoticed by men. Therefore the feminine imperative found it necessary to make the truth about the Wall as socially and individually subjective as possible. As with most uncomfortable truths unique to women’s weaknesses, the feminine creates social conventions and ambiguities to misdirect men from becoming aware of women’s eventual powerlessness over them (i.e. the progressive loss of her sexual agency). The Threat of having men become aware of women’s Achilles’ heel before they could consolidate long-term commitment with their best hypergamic option was too great a risk not to form social conventions about the Wall.

Implications of the Wall

Thus, in an intergender social context, the Wall became individualized and subjective for women, and it’s within this framework that women like S are most comfortable in addressing the reality of the Wall. “Not all women are like that” (NAWALT), the go-to mantra of feminized subjectivity, is a direct result of subjectivizing the inevitability of the Wall. In fact, virtually every operative social convention women rely upon for empowerment and self-esteem finds its root purpose in avoiding the fear of the Wall. The Myth of Sexual Peak, the Myth of the Biological Clock, the social convention that Women are just as Sexual as Men, are all very complex social rationales with the latent purpose of convincing the majority of men and women alike that post-Wall women can still be equally effective sexual competitors with pre-Wall women.

It’s important to bear in mind that all of these complex social conventions are rooted in a fear of the Wall. I’m repeating this point to emphasize the importance this has in a feminized society that’s subjected to feminine hypergamy as its most operative doctrine. When enough women, through cultural forces or personal circumstance, can’t capitalize upon what they think is their due, optimal hypergamic male option, then society must be acculturated to believe that women past their Wall expiration date can and should be just as desirable as those in their prime. Think of it as a retroactive social moving of the feminized goalposts. This is the gravity and extent that the fear of the Wall plays for women – feminized society is literally structured around avoiding it.

Defining the Wall

When I wrote Navigating the SMP, the reason I used 30 as the general age women typically hit the ‘Wall’ is really a combination of factors. Most importantly it represents the threshold at which most women realize their lessened capacity to sexually compete with the next generation of women in their ‘actualized’ sexual peak (22-24). However, there is a male part of the Wall equation that needs to be understood. 30 is also the general age at which men (should) become aware of their own, longer-lasting sexual market value and potential. This affects women’s interpretations of the Wall. Once a Man is aware that he has the capacity to attract the sexual attentions of the younger women he’d previously had limited access and understanding of, his actions and imperatives define the Wall for women who are approaching that threshold. And unsurprisingly this is the point at which Wall-fearing women begin their accusations of men’s infantile ego issues, shaming, etc. for preferring younger women than themselves.

When we (and as women in particular would have us) view the Wall in terms of physical attractiveness we don’t see the full picture and relevancy the Wall has for women. It’s very easy (and often fun) to compare pictures of girls we knew in high school with their current FaceBook profile shots at 40+ years old and get a laugh at how bad she hit the Wall. It’s also easy for women to point out the notable exceptions to the rule and find a hot 38 year old woman with 3 kids competing in the Ms. Fitness USA pageant. It gives them a sense of hope about their own decay.

However the Wall is much more than just the physical; it’s the conditional that accelerates or decelerates a woman’s date with the Wall.

Single mother? Acceleration.

Consistent, bad personal habits? Acceleration.

Careerist obsessive? Acceleration.

Obesity? Acceleration.

Do notable exceptions to these exist? Of course, but they prove the rule. And that rule comes in the form of such an overwhelming fear that contemporary society needed to be restructured to help avoid it. The 38 year old, careerist, single mother of 3 competing in fitness pageants is only a hero because of the fear of the Wall.


148 responses to “The Wall

  • Jack@hotmail.com

    Women definetly fear it, but what is the most surprising aspect of it all is the uttle inability of a woman to settle for a nice beta. She would rather roll the dice and dance with the devil that is “the wall” then give in and settle for a hopeless beta. It’s a shocking indictment of the power of their hypergamey instinct that any woman at the ege of 33 and up would turn down any marriage or committment proposal from any half decent man. But you look through society and it is happening regularly. Note the rate massive amount of women who leave their husbands via divocre in their 30’s only to see how tough and obvious the wall is.

    Great post.

  • Sam Spade

    One of the hottest women I dated was a 41 year old (I was 32 at the time). She was a dance instructor, and naturally kept herself in amazing shape. I’m not afraid to say she had the body of an 18-year-old and I liked it. She’d never had kids, never been married, never smoked, avoided alcohol and drugs. She also wasn’t career crazy in spite of being very successful at her craft. She also had a terrific personality. I’d say she was a great package for a woman her age. Only thing was I was 32 and not serious about dating someone so much older. I think she’d be a great catch for someone aged 50+, a real elder stallion.

    Nevertheless the reason I approached, dated, and nailed her was her physical beauty, first and foremost. Her personality kept me around as long as it could. My personal preference not to commit ended it.

  • wolf

    Women don’t fear the Wall until it’s too late. Since their peak fertility starts to dissipate around 27y/o so does the beauty. Have you heard, many western women believe in Pretty Lies…

  • Rollo Tomassi

    This pretty much sums up the average woman’s perspective of the Wall:

    A woman’s desire for men to “man up” is inversely correlated to the number of dating options she has.

    The more men she has in the pipeline, the less likely she’ll care if a guy mans up or not. Do you think a hot 21 year old co-ed, who is getting more attention than she can handle, who has guys desperately trying to wife her up, really notices that men in Western society are withdrawing from the marriage game? Things couldn’t be more peachy in her world because of the nonstop attention party she’s enjoying.

    But all parties come to an end. The young girl will make the decision to pass on many suitors to perpetually live the Sex and the City lifestyle. When she turns 30 the wrinkles around her eyes are no longer easy to hide with Covergirl, and guys suddenly become more lazy in trying to get her out on a date. They are not contacting her after she puts out like they were before, even though she made them wait three full dates before opening her legs instead of three hours. They’re not so eager to introduce her to friends. The attention she gets on OK Cupid is good for only a temporary confidence boost since 99% of the guys messaging her are lower quality than what she could get in the past. Something is off, but since it definitely isn’t her, since she has done absolutely no wrong in her life and made no poor decisions, what must have happened in the previous six years is that men became boys. There is no other logical explanation.

    She has fond memories of being 23 and wanted by every guy without having to do any work on her part. But even though she’s now more cultured, more traveled, more intelligent, more polished, more cuntish (in a way that female authors argue is attractive), none of that is hooking them like they did before. She remains oblivious to the fact that age and beauty matters. She sincerely believes that suddenly men have lost interest in being men. The sad truth is they have simply lost interest in her. She decided not to get on the ship when it was boarding, and now it has sailed away, never to return.

    – RooshV

  • Ras Al Ghul

    There is something else added to this mix that Rollo just touches on that this is for most women their only agency and power. The old structure of society gave them power over the long term with family.

    More and more women don’t have families, they have broods and when you think of the disruption divorce and single mom’s cause, there really isn’t any significant extended family.

    They don’t have anything to replace it with except a career, and most people don’t have exciting powerful careers.

    I suspect this lack of power is why there are so many female lawyers, so many government jobs filled with women and so many HR departments putting the screws to people.

  • Ras Al Ghul

    While S may be right that women have “other qualities” that are important, beauty is the threshold.

    Susan Boyle has a magnificent voice, but there is nothing about her that would draw the vast majority of men to her to want to find out that or anything else.

    Its a free ticket for so long, they don’t realize it expires and once it does, you can’t get back in.

    Ever.

  • Days of Broken Arrows

    Nice post. I’d like to add something to your list of other elements that make women hit “the wall.”

    You mention things like “single mother” and “bad personal habits,” but what I find most separates older women from younger are 1). The creeping, creepy eccentricity that overtakes women’s personalities as they age and 2). The bitterness that can actually be more unattractive than their looks.

    From field experience, I’ve had to deal with both of these things, and it ain’t pretty.

    The eccentricities women develop include things like obsessions with the vegan religion (which is what it is, really), treating their pets as human beings (annoying), and being militaristic about things like yoga or running. Dealing with women like this is exhausting and ends up not being worth it even if they’ve aged well. (As an aside, I’ll go out on a limb and say that older women whose sexuality has become deviant are also tiring once the initial novelty of hearing them talk about urine or getting “suspended” with hooks or whatever wears off.)

    The bitterness factor has been written about elsewhere, but bears worth repeating. I’d recently spent time with an ex g/f who still looks decent but has been around one too many blocks one too many times and is resentful of odd, little things, which now makes her seem petty and small-minded. She’s also developed a sour, hardened exterior, which she didn’t have when we were 19-20. We went out to dinner and were seated by a hostess who was around 19-20. Just dealing with the hostess for a minute or so reminded me of the breeziness and upbeat demeanor so many younger women have that older women lack. Unlike men, cynicism does not look good on women.

    So those are my two additions to things that makes the wall hit harder and/or sooner. Looks definitely aren’t everything, as the saying goes.

  • Stingray

    The approach of The Wall. That time when we realize almost everything we have been dependent on our whole lives in dealing with men(and some women) is coming to/at an end. The attention that was so easy to get, goes away. And for so many, they never learned anything else that men enjoy that would go beyond those looks. As I said on the previous post, damn scary stuff.

  • theprivateman

    “The creeping, creepy eccentricity that overtakes women’s personalities as they age and 2). The bitterness that can actually be more unattractive than their looks.”

    I deal with this far too much and it’s vastly annoying. Plus, a woman’s dating checklist in acceptable men actually grows with age. It’s quite counter intuitive when a 40-something woman adds something else to her reasons for rejecting a man. Seriously, WTF?

  • Stingray

    It actually makes a strange kind of sense. As a woman ages, but doesn’t find a man, she compensates for this by believing all the pretty lies. Fat? Well, it’s still beautiful, so I deserve more! Career? Men love intelligent women, so I deserve more! Single mother? All single mothers are the most sacrificial creatures and are to be commended, so I deserve more!

    It’s a way to compensate and still feel good about themselves without giving up what they think they want. Also, then they can blame men for not finding their awesomeness attractive and not take a deeper look at what the actual problem is.

  • Days of Broken Arrows

    … and why so many animals now have “mommies” instead of owners.

  • dana

    here’s the thing though, i am 42 and grew up through the heart of feminism and NO ONE EVEN INTIMATED THE WALL EXISTED–you know why? because when i was young most women of the older generation had still gotten and stayed married, and were more concerned with their kids giving them grandkids than picking up men at 45. the horror of the wall is a phenomenon of my generation’s single career gal, maybe lower boomers too, like divorced women in their early 50s now. seems to me one or two young generations of gals watching my generation of women die crazy and alone unloved with cats may do more to cure what ails us than 1000 MRA movements and christian marriage websites

  • GeishaKate

    Re settling: the trouble is, women have become too smart for their own good. For a relationship to work, the man needs to be and STAY superior. Once a woman has been in a “failed” relationship as a result of the above requirement not being met, it becomes not only that she “can’t” settle, but also that she “won’t.” What does it do to a man to be with a woman who, in most areas, outstrips him and who he can never please? It is not good for her, but also not good for HIM.

  • alphamission

    Women have restructured western society for fear of the Wall. Who knew women ruling society could be so vain and utterly dangerous and irresponsible? Oh yeah God for all eternity, and men for thousands of years. When feminism is finally dead, men will just shake their heads and say, “how did we let this go on for so long?”

  • GeishaKate

    Excellent, excellent point.

  • Guy@yahoo.com

    Good point.

  • Guy@yahoo.com

    I hope the younger generation of women looks at the current generation of overweight, overly tattooed single moms and collectively says through their actions and behavior, “We don’t want to be like that.”

  • Alkibiades

    I would add that according to current scientific understanding 95% of women’s eggs are no longer viable by the time they reach 30 years of age. Heartiste has the link to that study on his blog somewhere.

  • Guy@yahoo.com

    Excellent point made about a woman’s attitude and demeanor as she ages. Young, fun,optimistic women are simply much more pleasant to be around than pushy, bossy, demanding, aging broads with desperate baby-making agenda.

  • Solo

    slores gonna slore….only so long before sloring catches up with you and now these women are crying about “no men being left”.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/8654/

    ^^nothing gives me more personal satisfaction when reality strikes one of these slores. They live in their own little world and once they realize that that world is just a figment of their imgination, they become resentful and bitter. This article is an example of the reality that will that will hit many of these “indendpent women” very soon!

    “I was trying to wife you at 21 but you were dumb more worried about having fun”–Drake.

  • Dain Bramage

    Well put Stingray, to re-state your idea in another way, as the wall approaches, the hamster inflates to cushion impact.

  • deti

    dana:

    women of the era you’re talking about (who are in their 50s and 60s now and remained married to their first and only husbands) viewed the SMP quite differently.

    But they understood keenly that a young woman’s greatest assets (her youth and her beauty) would not last forever. They knew their daughters would do well to focus on finding husbands, because that task would only get increasingly difficult with each passing year.

    SO these young women had moms and grandmamas who were telling their younger counterparts not to waste time and not to be stupid with Alpha McGorgeous or Harley McBadboy or F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer or Frank Fratboy.

  • deti

    THe problem is that now, we have moms who have divorced their first husbands and are THEMSELVES getting pumped and dumped by the aforementioned stock alpha archetypical caricatures.

  • King A (Matthew King)

    The wall is a term borrowed from long-distance running. You “hit the wall” when you deplete your muscle-store of energy and experience sudden severe fatigue.

    Along the same athletic lines, female sexual market value is roughly equivalent to a professional tennis player’s performance curve. Roger Federer and Serena Williams will still gather trophies, but not nearly at the same pace. Ninety-five percent of their accomplishments are in the past. Though they seem to have been around forever, they are both only 30-years-old.

    Men’s performance tracks more along the lines of golfers. Less dependent on peak physicality, like women. More dependent on experience and technique.

    Matt

  • S

    Thanks Rollo for going into more detail regarding this subject matter.

    I think it is something everyone woman fears (as I described earlier in a previous comment regarding the ladies who have shit injected into them far too prematurely in an attempt to prolong their allure…sadly ruining their faces). You see a large amount of women ruining their looks with their choices (Lindsay Lohan for example…she looks like HELL at 25).

    I will admit, I am afraid of it (this “Wall”). In fact, I often feel angry when men compliment me on the basis of my physical appearance because I know it is not going to last. Right now, I am getting far more attention than I have ever had (because I had a boyfriend up until recently and I was a bit of a nerd) but that isn’t going to continue indefinitely either. I’m aware of that. I need to make wise choices now.

    The problem lie with the women who aren’t aware of it and believe that they can hold off until their mid-thirties to find the perfect guy.

  • Stingray

    In fact, I often feel angry when men compliment me on the basis of my physical appearance

    Don’t get angry with them, S. Give them your warmest smile and say hi. ;)

  • S

    :) Stingray…

    I’m going to have to start doing that before I get hit with this inevitable ugly stick (:P)…just have to gain the courage first.

  • Jack

    Women’s failure to understand the reality of aging on the SMV is a result of the Left’s destruction of self-responsibility and long-range thinking skills. The Left has done this by the political means of public education and the quasi-takeover of the universities (largely by subsidized loans). Ideologically the Left has done this through pragmatism which is the dominant epistemological force in our culture.

    People in general, women in particular can no longer think long range and they are totally reality avoidant. Add to this an extended adolescence made possible by post 60s wealth and you have the modern women.

    But this can’t last. Roissy posted today on sexbots and porn. He’s wrong on his prediction of the future just as Rollo is always off in his analysis of the culture.

    The post 60s Leftist welfare state which is founded on post-Kantian sketpicism is UNSUSTAINABLE. This will not last. There will be either 1) the West will self-destruct in which case there will be a massive step back in wealth and infrastructure. Female hypergamy will revert back to selecting the best beta providers, which is all that poorer societies can afford. Or 2) Total civilizatinonal destruction which is another Dark Age. The toy store comes to and end in that case. or 3) Philosophic and political revolution in which case the new political model is some libertarian version (whether Randian or Von Misean or whatever is open to debate). In that case there is no welfare state, no regulatory state and thus no state enforced Leftism (ie modern liberalism). Feminism dies and so does the Leftist assault on reason and self responsibility. Women in that society will know the reality of the wall.

    One could envision a renewed Christian movement if the Left should destroy the West. But IMO Christianity is a thing of the past. It is not the future. How long can mankind be saddled with the superstitions that were the outgrowth of Near-Eastern mysticism of 2000 years ago?

  • Nas

    “And that rule comes in the form of such an overwhelming fear that contemporary society needed to be restructured to help avoid it.”

    – How exactly was contemporary society changed to help avoid the wall? You mean the shaming language of manning up and infantile egos? I always assumed marriage was there to benefit older women but it seems they are the ones driving the divorces.

  • MNL

    The thing about the wall is that women typically don’t see it until they’re face is flat-plastered against it; until the wall has left it’s mark. Women don’t get warnings and bright flashing signs from miles in advance– such as one might see on the roadway: *Freeway ends in two miles. Prepare to stop*. Rather, the wall hits suddenly and hard for two reasons:

    First, a woman’s looks and attractiveness tends to decline gradually. On a day-to-day basis, a woman just can’t see any change and the wall sneaks up on her. For example, a female friend of my wife’s recently returned as a high school substitute teacher after taking off 15 years to raise kids. Her immediate observation upon returning to the classroom was how none of the boys looked at her like they did 15 years earlier. She no longer turns heads. It was a shocking surprise to her. By contrast, a woman with day-to-day exposure doesn’t notice her own decline to the same degree. I liken this substitute teacher’s experience to that of a recently divorced woman who optimistically rejoins the dating pool and expecting the same attention that she got in her 20’s. It just ‘aint gonna happen! Or rather, she’ll get non-committal attention, but without any interest in investment.

    Second, because a women doesn’t seek to settle down with a man that often in life, she gets only infrequent feedback on her LTR value. Often, she doesn’t get the message of her decline until its too late and after the wall has made its mark. A lot of women enjoy carefree male attention throughout their youth the same way a rich kid enjoys spending his way through life thinking he’s got a giant trust fund or asset base backing up his carefree habits. One day, however, you try to cash that one very big check (i.e., seek to settle down in an LTR) and you find out the hard way that your asset base just isn’t what it used to be. You inadvertently spent it all away.

  • S

    This is why I strongly believe that women should invest in both their external and internal attractiveness from an early age.

  • Jack

    Which is why women need to understand that the more successful they become the HARDER it is for them to find a sexy, high value man. Women need to learn that if they pursue their career then pursue the career for love of the career but NOT because of the notion that it will help them get a better man. That is not the way men are wired. We don’t select women for accomplishments. We select women for beauty and then femininity and fidelity (good luck with that last one).

    Money and career don’t really help women. The most you could say is that if a woman goes to law school or med school she will be in the company of high value men. But it will still be her looks that get him.

  • Cream

    I like this metaphore. Only trying to get into LTRs gives real feedback regarding LTR market value. But women often mistake sexual attraction for LTR attraction. WRONG!

  • GeishaKate

    The ‘ol going to college to find a husband, eh? Having money and a career are helpful to a woman if she needs to support herself (as in after a divorce). Having money/property (dowry) can be a detrimental as it can demotivate men who may lose their instinct to provide or attract men who won’t want to.

  • Capsaicin

    Massive crush of hamster delusion in the comments. Not schocking of course.

    Example:

    “I think this studied is radically flawed. I also have great belief that there may be some ulterior motives driving this. Almost all of my female friends had children after 30 without any difficulties and they come from multiple backgrounds. Some of them were even smokers in their 20s. I have a friend with 3 children, all conceived after 30.”

    And so on…

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Ladies, please, stop,..you’re both pretty.

  • blackbird.young

    Yeah, the girl I was last seeing talked incessantly about having my children. But that also involved having my children when she was at least 33 to 35 years old, and of course when we were both in our careers, stable income, she could support the child with or without me, etc..She, more than once, implored me to give her children at least later in life if I’m not married.

    I told her I’d be more than happy to give her my offspring around that age, as long as another man was raising them.

    I told her it’d be perfect. She could marry a wealthy chap to take care of and raise the kids while her and I fucked in my library, drank wine, & ate gourmet foods like in the Peter Greenaway film The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover. Except it’d be better because I wouldn’t die in the end. I’d simply be her lover and the man who gave her the children her body so clearly craved.

    The devil’s hamster spinning in her provoked such a sinister grin I had to laugh. It was obvious the thought truly appealed to her. Another chump raising her lovefucker’s kids unbeknownst to him while she got the best of both worlds – provision, stability, etc…& the raw passion she so craved, as well as children. Maybe I’ll get lucky and meet a beautiful woman married to a rich gay politician for his campaign’s appearance’ sake, and then the scenario could actually play out realistically. But, I bet that would completely destroy any ounce of pleasure/desire she’d receive from the entire forbidden devious purpose of the original dramatic scenario.

    To me this shows that women want two different things, and struggle between choosing and sticking with one of them, swinging back and forth until they’ve hit the wall & are desired by neither: non-committal Alpha fuck’s or fully committed beta bucks…as the GBFM has so aptly put somewhere, I believe. Two cent’s. Nice article.

    ——

    Can anyone explain to me what exactly “short term” dating is? Off topic, but I was recently trying to understand what that meant in terms of OKCupid. If someone wants “short term” dating doesn’t that mean they just want to fuck someone for a few weeks as it’s convenient, but without the more slutty notion of being fuck-buddies due to the appearance that things may become “long term”? Dating makes no sense to me, and I often realize after the fact that I was dating someone. After being after we both are no longer “dating”. However there seems to be a difference in dating someone exclusively, and actually being with someone exclusively. One seems more serious. I just don’t feel like anything progresses from short-term to long-term, it’s always from either/or to neither/nor. Probably doesn’t make sense. Also, what are your thought’s on OKCupid? It seems extremely easy to get dates on there. Like, a little too easy, considering what I’ve experimented with on the site. I probably rambled off topic again. That’s what I do. And the roosh comment below is great too. Good job folks

  • Stingray

    HA! Have hamster . . . and it’s spinning!

  • S

    I would not say the study is radically flawed..there has to be an element of truth. However, I doubt these people are lying. My mother had most of her children in her thirties and this was a woman who was told that she’d *never* conceive, at all. It’s different for all. Still I would not use these peoples and even my own observations as a basis to wait until my thirties to find a LTR.

  • GeishaKate

    I saw an article yesterday I didn’t have time to read called something like “Romney calls out Obama for making people ashamed of success.” Sounded about right.

  • GeishaKate

    Stingray makes men drool ;)

  • S

    S stands for sexy. ;)

  • Stingray

    *Close sisterly nudge*

    So do you ;)

  • OnTheWayUp

    One of your most insightful posts here, Rollo; your analysis is very easy to read and makes a lot of sense. The focus on how the feminine imperative deals with the psychological effect of The Wall is particularly though-provoking. Many useful comments as well.

  • onasendai

    Great commentary today on the “Wall” and how women try to abate their fear of its occurrence. I remember reading that post by Roosh and how the lightbulb in my brain went on when I realised that it wasn’t 30 year old me that changed regarding the older women I was seeing, rather it was nature telling me that the woman I was seeing was approaching her expiration date. I guess one problem about being aware of the “Wall” is that I’m always noticing crows feet, and curdled thighs and asses on a lot of women now.

    One only look at Tom Cruise and his ex female co stars and see the devastating effects of age on women.

  • King A (Matthew King)

    seems to me one or two young generations of gals watching my generation of women die crazy and alone unloved with cats may do more to cure what ails us than 1000 MRA movements and christian marriage websites

    This is what I keep trying to tell the doom mongers. Nature rebalances us after excess. Sometimes with epic pain.

    But we are children of the transition. It matters how we manage the reversion to the mean. Gay “marriage” and Slut Walks ain’t the way.

  • YOHAMI

    “It’s different for all.”

    Usually it isnt.

  • S

    You are going to get crows feet, curdled ass and thighs on a women even in their early twenties if they go out and pour toxins into their bodies. iI know girls with deep lines like you wouldn’t believe in their very early twenties..sitting outside in the blistering sun for hours, sipping on margaritas sans SPF does shit. Unfortunately.

  • noize

    It also doesn’t help her that the guys who do fit all of those requirements don’t find her attractive compared to her competition.

  • dana

    …and tha’ts why i’ve always gone for protectors rather than providers–something few women try to do–there are plenty of strong, smart, if under-educated, good men out there to whom the women of their own social class are nothing but revolting tattooed pigs and single moms…they can make wonderful mates if YOU aren’t the type of woman who can only respect a man for the size of his wallet. the woman CAN earn more than the man, she can even be the provider, as long as she RESPECTS him for some attribute and is able to show it regularly–wallet size and job are usually just an easy proxy for this “respectability”.

  • S

    Are you trying to suggest that clones walk among us Yohami? ;)

  • Team-Red

    There’s no escaping The Wall.

    A perfect example is Lisa Robin Kelly, the blond from That 70’s Show. She had a pretty good run and longer than most women do, but eventually hit The Wall, and hit it pretty hard.

    Only a house full of cats await the Spinsters. Find a husband now S, if that’s what you really want. Or don’t…

  • S

    Lisa Robin Kelly clearly has substance dependency issues (and that distinct look of crystal meth abuse…crystal meth is notorious for ageing..). Not a fabulous example but I get the point that you are trying to make.

    I’ve already decided that if I don’t find a husband by the age of 33 I’m becoming the town drunk.

  • dana

    jesus christ–shes the exact same age as me! i look like a middle aged jew, but shes a fucking trainwreck already–no sun, no drinking, no smoking–no wrinkles, selah

  • deti

    S:

    Your mother is an outlier.

    And quite fortunate to be able to carry more than one child to term after 30.

  • krauserpua

    One of your best posts. Very thoughtful, some original thinking, very tightly reasoned. The Wall is yet another reason why women’s primary emotion when navigating the world is fear.

  • John Galt

    “One only look at Tom Cruise and his ex female co stars and see the devastating effects of age on women.”

    Or even the most striking case – in 1988, Sally Field (42 years old) played Tom Hanks’ (32 years old) love interest in the movie Punchline. Just 6 years later in the movie Forrest Gump, Sally Field (48) plays his MOTHER. And of course Robin Wright (28) plays his love interest. Obviously, a lot of hollywood magic with Ms Field’s makeup, lighting, etc. But point remains on the short shelf life of women.

  • Days of Broken Arrows

    “women of the era you’re talking about (who are in their 50s and 60s now and remained married to their first and only husbands) viewed the SMP quite differently.”

    These women, who stayed married for the most part, also got a get-out-of-wall free pass, so to speak. When you’re with a partner for a long time, you notice their aging a lot less than when you meet a person at, say, 35 for the first time. In the first example, you still “see” the 20-year-old you first met; in the second all you ever see is the 35-year-old. Unless she show you old pics – haha.

  • ImmoralGables

    I hear you on the fear aspect.

    Once you understand the reasoning behind it all it is easier to not get upset and easier to accept the way things happen and motives of women.

    The red pill didnt make me misogynistic as many like to claim it does, it made me more understanding and less likely to be perturbed when something doesn’t go my way.

    Knowledge is power in itself. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

  • GeishaKate

    I can’t do under-educated. I really can’t. Believe me, I have met men who are exceptional athletes, have exceptional hearts, or had excpetional financial sucess; but its exceptional insight that is most important to me. Because of my life experiences of always looking out for myself, I really, really do want that provider in the tradional sense. I’ve bucked tradition long enough.

  • BlackCat

    Cue: “29 – 31″ video by Garfunkel and Oats

  • Candide

    http://solomonreborn.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/proverb-28-women-can-age-beautifully/

    To sum up Solomon’s insight:

    Women fear the Wall, because they choose the strategy to be sexually popular in the eyes of every man (while not realising that it has a short time limit) and opt out of a lifetime of beauty in the eyes of the one man who loves them.

    Sexy instead of beautiful.

    The Wall is irrelevant for women with the grace, class and effort to become the latter, but it is the monster from the abyss for the former.

  • GeishaKate

    LOL- I’ll be 34 in a smidge over a month. I will not be becoming the town drunk. I’m already looking forward to it because my birthday tradition is a Swedish massage and then dinner out with Mini Me. Steak, yum!

  • BlackCat

    In fact, I often feel angry when men compliment me on the basis of my physical appearance because I know it is not going to last

    S, read this:

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.jp/2012/07/why-your-old-wife-is-still-young-and.html

    Then, understand that to most men, 90+% of a woman’s attractiveness in terms of SMV is… attractiveness. That is to say, physical beauty. When a man complements your appearance, he is really saying one of the nicest things to you that he can.

    Finally…

    I often feel angry

    No. Just, no.

  • mikec74

    Rollo, if possible, you might consider switching to chronological order comments instead of the nested setup. Once you start getting to 40, 50, 60+ comments its a pain in the ass trying to follow a conversation in the nested format.

  • deti

    Geisha, Stingray:

    Both of you, pix or shutup. Hahahaha

  • treylesnorth

    Hey Rollo,

    I have a question I wanted to take onto the Manosphere and I thought I might present it to you. I’ve been watching something called King of the Dot rap battles the last two days. I’m not a huge rap fan and while I think there’s some element of cheesiness to the whole thing, I’m also amazed at what these guys do.

    They promote their leagues as a sport. They have weeks or months to prepare and study their opponent. They then proceed to publicly humiliate and ridicule each other. Dragging up the past, calling each other the basest things, calling out all the times they try to save face and all the lies they tell themselves so they can sleep at night, threatening, emasculating, etc… everyone’s seen 8 mile… but things have progressed since then. It can be far more ruthless. Nothing is sacred. The most talked about video now is the pay per view Dizaster vs. Canibus (the rapper from the 90’s) battle. It’s brutal to watch what Dizaster does to this guy. He takes a shit on his entire life story (it’s what they do). Everybody’s saying Canibus’ career is ruined. If you want to get an idea what I’m talking about… that might be the one to go on YouTube to watch.

    Anyhow. Anyone with social anxiety (like myself) or afraid of getting blown out by a girl could see this stuff and be reminded of what these guys do. Many of the elements of game are there in spades: AMOG’ing, frame control, state control, et. al.

    I was just wondering what you might think of the whole topic I’m bringing up here and how it relates to game. Hell, I’ve never even had a girlfriend character assassinate me like these guys do publicly. People don’t even talk like this behind your back as far as I know. Think even they can’t win an argument against their wives/girlfriends? They make a living out of tearing people down psychologically in a high pressure environment. Think a woman has the memory of an elephant and will always bring up your past screw ups or mercilessly ruin your life and reputation? (granted these guys don’t have your kids, society, government, law enforcement, or the possibility of castrating you to use as leverage).

    It all just seems like good food for thought right now and these videos appear to be a good tool for breaking down some barriers when it comes to game, social fears, not caring what people think and yet also realizing how pathetic a girl will think you are and unforgiving she’ll be if she ever breaks or betatizes you–regardless of how hypocritical and sensitive she is about her insecurities–she sure as hell can’t take the slightest bit of criticism, delayed gratification, or emotional distance from you after all. (If I’m honest with myself, I’d find it hard not to burst into tears at times if I had to do the Psych warfare these guys do–I hate hearing people talk shit just as I hate talking shit myself… I think it’s lower lifeform type of behavior, but am trying to reconcile that with how necessary it seems to be in order to stand up for yourself).

    Anyways, a bit of a ramble. Sorry for he long post–trying not to be such a people pleaser. I appreciate you and your work, Rollo. I appear to be collectIng father figures and role models everywhere I go while trying to unplug.

    Thank you so much

  • Days of Broken Arrows

    “In fact, I often feel angry when men compliment me on the basis of my physical appearance because I know it is not going to last…”

    Neither is your intelligence or your personality, so maybe you should also take umbrage at men complimenting you on those things. Intelligence fades around age 60 and senility is just around the corner for many. As for the personalities of women growing more sour as they age, see my other post in this comment section or re-read your own comment and think if saying something like that might not be a warning to men that someone is already getting too bitter to be with.

  • GeishaKate

    @blackbird.young: I have no idea what any of these relationship terms mean to anybody. In some circles you can’t even call it a relationship unless it involves sex, others don’t consider it one unless its been trumpeted by facebook, and I’ve seen people refer to a three month relationship as a LTR. It is all very confusing :)

  • Stingray

    Alas, changing to chronological comments does not preserve the nested comments in old posts. Same thing happened to mine. It will be easier for the new posts, though, as MikeC said.

  • GeishaKate

    ^ that was @deti

    “Sexy instead of beautiful.

    The Wall is irrelevant for women with the grace, class and effort to become the latter, but it is the monster from the abyss for the former.”

    Music to my ears, Candide. Everything will work out for the best in the best of all possible worlds, right ;)

  • Stingray

    Ah, sorry Kate. I was wondering that as well.

    Sorry Deti, I’m going to have to shush. No pics from this girl. Privacy is too important.

  • S

    @ BlackCat and Days of Broken Arrows,

    I know the anger is inappropriate and irrational. That’s why I don’t react to it..I get a compliment, I say “thank you” and I immediately change the topic of conversation.

    I have accepted a date for next week so hopefully I won’t make a complete mess of it.

  • Wudang

    http://www.menweb.org/femexpos.htm

    OT, but this article is so good I wanted to share it.

  • Joe

    I recently spent a couple days on an Outward Bound sort of deal, and spent most of that time with an 18 year old Southern girl, just going into college, who was helping me run things. (I’m in my mid-40’s). I didn’t try to do the deed with her – maybe could have, maybe not – didn’t try because I’m married and a good boy at heart. But (thanks to some critical thinking picked up reading game blogs over the last year) I was able to evaluate her in terms of SMV. Quite honestly, I’d forgotten how utterly pleasant and unapologetically attractive a pretty, fit, very capable, gentle and relatively guileless 18 year-old woman really is. She was really magnificent. Church going but not churchy; career ambitions but “only until I have kids… they will come first.” Inexperienced and unsophisticated, sure; I’m reasonably certain she doesn’t the French riviera from the Redneck Riviera, how to smoke cigarettes with her vajayjay, or for that matter how to pick a good wine or give a good hummer. But just a lovely girl – who if she stays on the right track will make a great wife & lover & mother, but if she gets on the carousel will be utterly ruined and warped in 10 years.

    I’m going to tell my son that if he wants a wife, to bust his ass in school and early in his career, and in his mid-20’s to start looking for a girl like that. Marry her up, be alpha-ish but be gentle to her and don’t force her into the shape of the secular ideal, because her natural state is better than what the feminists and carousel operators would form her into. Maybe that’s the combination that gets a married couple past the wall and into old age together – the husband is able to enjoy her youth with her, and she is married and oriented around family and home early enough to avoid the hardening that is inflicted on career women/carousel riders.

    The many, many 30-something and 40-something single women I work with – no matter how tight their abs, how many degrees they have, how much money they make or how nice they try to be – are just too high mileage to have that unalloyed natural attractiveness about them. It’s gone. Not only have they hit the wall reproductively, but there is something about the way that life in the world wears on them, the way porn starlets go downhill fast. The difference between the single career women and the Southern sweetie is the difference between saccharine and honey – you can get along with saccharine okay if you have to, it gets the job done, but honey doesn’t have to try to be very, very sweet, and you don’t have to make excuses for an odd & bitter aftertaste.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Yeah, sorry all. I started the comment nesting thing back when I was only getting 20 or so comments per post and it made sense. It’ll be messy for a bit, but better in the long term.

  • Random Angeleno

    @S: “This is why I strongly believe that women should invest in both their external and internal attractiveness from an early age.”

    Internal attractiveness has to be taught from an early age. Who’s going to teach the majority of female children that in today’s society? Heck, they’re not even being taught external attractiveness if we are to judge by the amount of obesity present today.

  • Stingray

    Rollo,

    May I make request? Set the pagination on your comments page to more than 50? 125-150 would be better, IMHO.

  • S

    @ Random Angeleno,

    Well, I know that if I have a daughter (if I can manage to before my ovaries shrivel up :P)..I will be teaching her to invest in both.

    There are also few appropriate female role models for girls to look up to. Too much of this “Jersey Shore” or “The Only Way is Essex” crap poisoning their minds.

  • SouthTX

    I married a 20 yo virgin in a packed Church. Three kids later and decades of good history means I ignore the wall when I look at her. Girl’s advise your daughters to finding a husband early and don’t waste your youth.

  • GeishaKate

    I had a talk about a month ago with my five year old about boys. She recently saw the boy she likes again. I asked, did you remember what I told you? She said, “Yes,” and then proceeded to repeat my instructions back to me verbatim: “You can only hold hands with one boy.” She listened!!! :)

    The irony is that feminists considered finding a husband early as wasting your youth.

  • Wudang

    S:

    Speaking of english girls, I´ve read reports of “Ladism” amongst young english women where they are aping the worst and most obnoxious aspects of young boys behavior. I´ve been to England a lot and I did see much more of this than in other countries. Ladism really is the height of unattractive on the inside for women.

  • DB

    S, what do you think of male nerds? Some of the best ones actually will value you primarily for traits other than beauty (so your value to them does not drop precipitously when you hit the physical Wall, as long as you protect your personality), and they often are marriage-minded.

    If you’re not willing to consider them, then yes, you must act quickly to avoid trouble, but if you are, you don’t have to be particularly alarmed. The Manosphere mocked the plain looks of Mark Zuckerberg’s new wife not long ago, but he’s obviously happier with her than he’d be with a conventional beauty.

  • Houston

    Vox Day once observed that women perceive everything through their SMV. Though this might be an exaggeration, it does explain common adoption of cutesy-pie inflexion and mannerisms (akin to the eccentricities mentioned in an up-thread post by Days of Broken Arrows) by women in advanced old age. Having lost their sexual allure and being unable to credibly demand anything, they try to play on men’s sense of pity to get what they want.

  • SouthTX

    Marrying young for a highly intelligent woman seems to make sense from my own experience. She has her Husband, kids and the freedom to then make her place out in the world. I will probably retire early. Kid’s are spoiled. Life is good.

  • S

    @Wudang

    What do you mean by the term aping? If you mean girls attempting to act like “one of the lads”..I have witnessed this. It’s unpleasant.

    @DB

    I like male nerds, always have (give me one of those Big Bang Theory guys any day.. ;)). Haha, no, I prefer to be able to relate to the people I date and as I’m a bit of a nerd myself..a male nerd would be right up my street. I’m going to start now regardless.

  • blackbird.young

    I recently read this from http://www.delanceyplace.com/index.php: ” […]new and growing body of research is revealing that there are marked and generally positive physiological changes that occur in a mother’s brain as a result of giving birth to a child. Experiments and observations on human mothers and laboratory rats provide the evidence[…].”

    Thought it was interesting despite being somewhat off topic. It also mentions how strongly a role the olfactory senses play in who women choose as mates. The craziest girls I’ve been with were always obsessed with my smell.

    Considering how that article points out that it literally makes a woman function better as an adult and as a human – down to changing the way her brain’s chemistry is, it’s unfortunate that women are putting off their natural inclination toward womanhood or are taught to avoid it nowadays.

  • Wudang

    S: Yes that is what I mean. Sorry, my first language isn`t english.

  • DB

    @S: Okay, best of luck, and I’m sure you’ll turn out fine. The warnings given by Rollo and others are primarily directed at the more common sort of girl who’s naturally attracted to other types of guys she can’t expect to keep.

  • Joe

    >>>Ladism really is the height of unattractive on the inside for women.

    It’s pretty unnatractive on the outside too. Spend a night keeping a hot girl’s head & hair out of the toilet while she pukes up a half dozen margaritas and you’ll see what I mean. It’s distinct from helping out a sick friend because it’s self-inflicted and stupid, and probably worth a -3 on the SMV.

  • S

    @DB,

    Thank you, I hope so, I have not a lot of experiences with relationships as I have only had the major one (and a short term one before that with a nerd :) )..but I have never found myself overly compelled by the most lusted after. Others may argue with me and insist that I am biologically wired to feel so but really, I have always valued the underdog. I’m not ugly or anything (yet) but I have a thing for men who genuinely appear enthused by me in more ways than one. ;)

    @Joe

    Yes, that is extremely prominent here. Extremely.

    @All

    What are the physical markers of a woman hitting the “Wall”? Apart from the stereotypical grey hair, wrinkles and sagging skin?

  • SouthTX

    A devoted Mom to your kids means she gets a wall pass. We would have had a dozen if the doctor didn’t warn after three. Everybody ages. But at a point, memories take over in a LLTR relationship.

  • BlackCat

    @S:

    I know the anger is inappropriate and irrational. That’s why I don’t react to it..I get a compliment, I say “thank you” and I immediately change the topic of conversation.

    If you are feeling it, then you are showing it. Most people don’t have anywhere near the poker face they think they have, and I would be willing to bet that you have a number of ‘tells’ – little things like momentary pauses, flitting eye expressions, tone of voice, or the quick change of topic you mention above – that the other person will pick up on, given enough chances. And if the other person is so socially inept as to be unable to pick up non-verbal cues, then odds are that you probably aren’t attracted to them.

    One needs to understand and accept the SMV as it is rather than how they think it should be, and drop any ideas of ‘fairness’ because those are really just selfish projection, and again, not reality.

  • NoQuarterForCatLadies

    Rollo,

    One analogy for how the wall works that cuts through the social conventions / hamster wheels pretty quick – just show them the chart below:

    20 years old = 6’2
    25 years old = 6’0
    30 years old = 5’10
    35 years old = 5’8
    40 years old = 5’6
    45 years old = 5’4
    50 years old = 5’2
    55+ years old = midget

    For whatever age they are, ask them to imagine how attractive they and their girlfriends would find a guy of the corresponding height. That’s pretty much the same way we feel about their attractiveness based on their age. If they want to understand how aging affects their attractiveness to men, they can just imagine how they’d feel if men shrunk two inches every five years.

    Cuts through the B.S. (and all the complaints that you’re being shallow). Women can understand their own sexual revulsion to a 5’4 guy, even if they can’t understand men’s similar feelings about a wrinkly 45 year old.

  • milch

    An enlightening read. Here is a related story from China that is a concrete manifestation of the wall concept: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/19/chinas-unwanted-single-women-feel-the-pressure/

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