Value Added

There’s nothing more refreshing for me than to read the insights of new Rational Readers. Generally it’s not that most offer anything terribly novel (some do), but it’s the predictable, persistent, feminized societal interpretations that keep reusing the same tired rationales which gives me hope that positive masculinity is cracking that shell. In other words, girl-world isn’t really coming up with anything new; it’s just retreads of old tropes.

One new Rational Reader, ‘S’ (maybe for Susan?) decided to take me to task for my graphically detailed essay on Navigating the SMP. Have Hamster, will spin.

While S suffers from the common female malady of reverse rationalizing her ‘circumstances’, she does provide a perspective on a topic I have yet to cover here in her followup response:

Fine, I read that. I just don’t agree with you philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30. What if say there were circumstances outside of her control that prevented her from getting married at what a simpleton might deem as an acceptable time…what if she never partied and slept around? There is more to a woman than physicality and it pisses me off that there are men like many of the above (bitter much?) who don’t appear to see worth in a women once her..what’s it called..sexual market value declines…it just strikes me a scarily misogynistic..like some creeped up from of American Psycho shit and it makes me scared for our society.

There is a lot to be said for developing true companionship with someone, having a kind of partner in crime relationship that endures…A woman of any age is appropriate for this.

To paraphrase Roissy’s inimitable words, the closer you get to the truth the louder the feminine will screech. As odd as this is going to sound I actually agree with most of S’s point here. You see, when I was detailing the timeline of men and women’s respective sexual market values, my intent was to provide a raw and unvarnished view of how, in contemporary social dynamics, men and women’s sexual market values differ over the course of time. I made the efforts (loose as they were) to reveal the slow-burn valuation of men’s SMV in contrast with women’s quick-burn SMV.

Emotional Response

Exposing uncomfortable truths is kind of a mixed bag when it comes to the emotional response to those truths. For instance when I read articles about feminist triumphalism regarding how much more ‘advanced’ women are over men today, or I read reviews like ‘The End of Men‘, the analytical portion of my brain gives way to the more emotive response. Why try right? If I’m obsolete, if the cards are stacked in women’s favor before I even get dealt a hand, why not go my own way? There’s a certain hopelessness to that initial emotional response, especially when there’s no hint of sympathy or contrition forthcoming from ‘powerful’ women and all the women aspiring to that empowerment. This is just how the game has shaken out, too bad for you men, you’re fucked now.

I imagine S probably feels the same way when she sees the landscape of the sexual marketplace on display in such Darwinian, graphic terms. Once you’ve hit the Wall ladies, your value begins its decline in earnest, so The Threat then becomes men becoming self-aware enough of their increasing SMV to capitalize upon his increase and your decrease accordingly. This is the nasty part of hypergamy; the countdown to the Wall is ever-present, but so is the subconsciousness-level doubt about having made the optimal hypergamic mating choice before the clock reaches zero. Every SMP opportunity after that point will always be colored by what opportunities she could’ve consolidated upon before it.

I often get called a cynic or uncaring in the delivery of my observations, but try to understand my approach is always about pragmatism. Should women’s overall value mean more than just her physicality and sexual availability? Yes, of course, just as Men’s intrinsic value ought to be more broadly appreciated for the qualities of his character and the sacrifices he makes to facilitate a woman’s reality. I would love nothing better than to think that the human spirit combined with mutual good-will and understanding could lift us above our base, innate drives. I would love to live in a world where men could get a hard-on based solely upon his estimation of a woman’s respective “worth”, and where women swoon for a humble, noble, loyal and devoted overweight and underemployed man with a negative balance in his bank account.

In the manosphere, every day I read about the conflict between what our higher selves should want in a woman. There’s no lack for articles and blog/forum responses making impassioned pleas for women’s fidelity, loyalty, intelligence, grace, femininity, appreciation, and a long list of other ephemeral qualities as being ideal for an LTR prospect. In fact I’d argue that the majority of men’s misreading women comes more from seeing past the red flags and attributing more importance to these qualities than a woman actually merits. For every divorced man who uttered the words “I never thought she was capable of this” I’ll show you a guy who rationalized his attraction to his ex based on what he thought were her ‘value added’ qualities.

Relationships – Nature and Nurture

I would never argue that a man or woman NOT aspire to be better than they are as human beings. There are always going to be human elements to any relationship that transcend what we’d expect the nature of the Game to dictate to us, but underneath that compassionate understanding, behind the flowery sentimentalism, is still the base drives, the feral hypergamy, the cruel reality of the Wall, etc. that we will never be exempt from. On Friday I’ll have been married for 16 years to a beautiful, loyal, feminine, woman. Mrs. Tomassi embodies a great many of the ideal qualities that most men would put on their LTR vetting list – she’s a great partner in crime for me, but my initial attraction to her had far less to do with those qualities and far more to do with how much she turned me on. However, as comfortable as I am with her, as intimate as we are with each other’s identities, warts and all, I still understand the base framework necessary for all of this to take place within.

A relationship based solely upon physicality and sexuality is every bit as weak as one based solely upon esoteric appreciations of ‘higher‘ value-added qualities.

The strongest, healthiest relationships are those in which both parties have a mature, mutual understanding and embrace of both the natural aspect and the nurturing aspect of the SMP. Women will never come to appreciate men’s intrinsic sacrifices made for them without coming to terms with naturalistic side of Game and the SMP. Likewise men need to come to terms with the reality of their conditioning and the fem-centric Matrix in order to appreciate the gravity of their decision to commit to a formalized monogamy / marriage. They need to appreciate the risk of the situation they find themselves in, but have hitherto ben unaware of. For both genders, coming to this understanding is often an ugly prospect.

Likewise it’s important to develop an appreciation for, and an embrace of those value-added qualities which move beyond the naturalistic side of the SMP. While being of primary importance, sex and the feral aspects of the SMP aren’t the only aspects of a healthy LTR. When it comes time to make the transition from spinning plates to informed, committed monogamy, you still have to live with that person and this is when those value-added attributes make or break the LTR.

I understand S’s and so many other women’s frustrations with the Game as it applies to women’s deficiencies. I’ve written at length about how women would rather have the Game changed to better suit their capacities to play it. In this instance S repeats a common moan in that she expects men to appreciate the ‘value added’ elements of a woman’s persona in priority to her base attractiveness. Her fears that men might adopt some policy of neglecting “quality” women in favor of “arousing” women, while understandable in terms of feminine competition anxiety, are really unfounded. If anything it’s the majority of beta men conditioned to believe that “it’s what on the inside that matters” who’ve borne the brunt of women’s social dissatisfaction for the past 40 years.

Guys don’t seek out the community because they’re getting too much pussy from being ‘Nice’ and appreciative of women’s ‘deeper’ qualities and they don’t know how to let down all these women easy. If anything compromises self-respect (assuming an AFC even has a concept of that) it’s a Scarcity/Sniper mentality. Worry less about the guys tapping their “harems” and more about the chump crucifying himself to be the martyr for his singular “dream girl”. He’s far more common.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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YOHAMI
Guest

“I just don’t agree with you philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30.”

They have a purpose, just little for the SMP.

Just like unattractive creepy men, the ones she bashes – they a have purpose too, just not one that she´ll want to get involved with.

The SMP is not about human beings.

Sam Spade
Guest
Sam Spade

This is a brilliant post. That’s all I’ll say.

Team-Red
Guest
Team-Red

I firmly believe that some of the women that bought into feminism and went down this path are starting to realize it was a big mistake. Once they get on the other side of 30 and are finally ready to hop of the carousel, they look around and see few prospects willing to wed them. Men at this point have either married and began a family in the traditional sense or have abandoned that desire and sees no benefit to stop spinning plates. She had her chance and passed it up, her counterpart is now in his prime and slaying… Read more »

Stingray
Guest

It all boils down to women wanting Alphas to be “appreciative of women’s ‘deeper’ qualities” doesn’t it? Women, for the most part, are not attracted to beta men. Therefore, they don’t much care if these men are appreciative of their deeper qualities or not. Sure, it’s nice to be appreciated by a man one is not attracted to, but it’s not what we are looking for. What scares women is that, if men learn to be Alpha and they can get any women they want, then men have very little reason to look for those inner qualities anymore, unless the… Read more »

nexus
Guest
nexus

nice work, thanks.

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

Yes, they do have a purpose. Its to raise the children they should have had in their twenties.

YOHAMI
Guest

For sure

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

Sometimes when my daughter is away I get a chance to do the things I like to do and I make the most of every minute; but, other times, I have this sense of uselessness, like, what do I do now? I can’t imagine feeling like that all the time. Its sad. There’s a limited time to have children. There’s plenty of other time to do and accomplish the things you want to accomplish. Unfortunately, most people need to experience things for themselves to believe them. So this generation of women, influenced by their feminist mothers, has missed the boat… Read more »

jbaee
Guest

The key thing few women realize is that they are selling themselves in a lemons market where women are easily distinguished into two groups: women over 30 and women under 30. (They can and are subdivided much more than that, but old/young is a good starting point). The key thing about this lemons market is that you can test drive the product a fair bit (dating, relationships). Available women in their 20s have been test driven some, but there is still a lot of uncertainty about their performance. They could be crappy deals, but they could also be valuable deals… Read more »

Senior Beta
Guest
Senior Beta

One of your better essays. And I could understand it since no “scemas” or “normatives.” Also like the lemon analogy. Good way to start the week.

koevoet
Guest
koevoet

I haven’t read the whole thing yet…actually I haven’t gotten past the first line. But I have to ask…Is the picture photoshopped? Please, please, please, tell me that it is? I beg you?

If not, how hard would it be to change legislation to let us burn people at the stake again? I promise we won’t abuse it, just when it really need to be done.

Coy
Guest
Coy

Exactly, All the “value added” stuff is built upon attraction. If a fat chick had every “value added” quality, would you pair bond with her?There’s a reason its called “value added”.
@jbaee
Nice analysis.Men know this instinctively and women cant comprehend numbers…… so a futile effort ? heheh…just kidding.

I can’t believe people missed this…but Rollo since you won’t be posting this friday …….. CONGRATULATIONS for clocking 16 years.You are the “cool skirt chasing player-uncle figure” I never had.

Phinn
Guest
Phinn

Who wouldn’t appreciate the opportunity for a little light reading while you’re pounding a woman from behind?

Maybe, instead of tattoos, women could have some kind of image-display system on their lower backs, like a projection or a second skin that displays videos and sporting events.

This is a billion-dollar idea, people. Pearls, that’s what I’m dropping here.

John Galt
Guest
John Galt

I almost made a terrible mistake of marrying a 38 year old woman and luckily caught it before it was too late. My recent exposure to the manosphere confirmed my (correct) decision. My recent experience – I am 38, never married, live in large U.S. city. While on business in another city, I ran into a former class mate from high school. In high school, she was a HB9 with an attitude. I was Joe Average with lots of potential (or so I viewed myself) and I would have eaten my left ball off to have sex with her in… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

What she needs to put back there is an ipad with a netflix subscription.

Phinn
Guest
Phinn

Here’s a proposal for “S” — I’ll apologize for every man who has ever experienced reduced sexual attraction to women over the age of 30 in exchange for an apology for every woman who has experienced reduced sexual attraction to beta men who provide resources but insufficient excitement.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

John, glad all that worked out for you. Don’t take this as a burn, but your story is an excellent example of relying on an Adolescent Social Skill set. https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/the-adolescent-social-skill-set/ I caught a lot of shit from critics thinking my definition of maturity was subjective to my own bias, but your story is a much better example of what my outline was about. You don’t have to be retarded in other social contexts to be reliant upon an adolescent frame of reference when it comes to intergender social dynamics. You can be a successful, capable, mature businessman and still have… Read more »

koevoet
Guest
koevoet

Rollo, I’ve read the whole thing now. Great piece.

But…I had really been hoping that was photoshopped.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

c’mon now, it’s an act of ‘devotion’ right?

Barry
Guest
Barry

So let me get this right. I should appreciate old women for their non-looks based value. Just as they appreciated me in my nice guy 20’s……..oh no they were fucking the nasty boys and leaving me alone.

So fuck them…..and just laugh at them. There is nothing funnier than an old ugly trying to relive her youth……hahhahhhahhhahhha.

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

That is very insightfully broken down.

koevoet
Guest
koevoet

Perhaps you are right and I was jumping the gun on burning her. There is a way to determine this, though. I say we through her into the river and see if she floats, then I shall decide weather floating means it was an act devotion or a sign of witchcraft. We’ll get to the bottom of this!

Jon
Guest
Jon

Great post. Really things are so stacked against average males these days when they’re young what with social conventions,schooling and laws favoring the poor oppressed cupcakes that if average women can’t capitalize on their assets and lockdown some good guys in the 20s how can they possibly complain if the same guys turn around 10 years later and play them at the game the girls were playing 10 years before!

John Galt
Guest
John Galt

No burn taken. And to be clear, the adolescent experience defined how I was with her specifically, not women in general. I consider myself lower Alpha and usually spin plates (before I even heard of the term you coined) and keep options open. But it only takes one woman to trip you up.

I just discovered your blog Rollo, top shelf material. “Myth of the Lonely Old Man” is one of my favorites. Hopefully I can add value through comments about my prior experiences.

John

koevoet
Guest
koevoet

Jon, that’s one of the great things about finding the manosphere. A guy in his 20’s (I’m 27, BTW) can really develop a depressing world view. I stayed in a three year relationship that was harming both of us just because I thought it was better than being alone. I figured that at 30 I was doomed. I had seriously put though into joining a monastery. Yeah, hitting the wall sucks for women, but understanding the SMP can help them as well. If more women started seriously looking to settle down earlier in life, it would be better for men… Read more »

Jon
Guest
Jon

Marriage only works for guys if you’re very young, very old, or very poor or your wife to be is very rich, otherwise it’s a no-brainer in my book – you loose frame far more easily and all the women these days seem to love their daily dose of divorce porn fantasy… Even cohabiting now has an extremely high risk in many States /Western Countries. No marriage as a cast iron rule and you can’t go wrong.

Senior Beta
Guest
Senior Beta

What a thread! Now I have two heroes named John Galt.

Jon
Guest
Jon

Exactly. It’s great so much information, advice and experience is freely shared for the benefit of others. And, as Rollo stated previously, at no small risk given how things are these days.

The trouble is women aren’t rational though – it’s candy today and candy tomorrow – but just play the game according to the rules.

Jon
Guest
Jon

Or rather new rules!

Sword
Guest
Sword

I recently hung out with one of my friends and her dyed-in-the-wool feminizations were humorous, among the gems:

Guys like girls who play hard to get

(and my favorite)

‘dont you realize, 30 is the new 20’ (she is borderline wall)

jlw
Guest
jlw

Speaking of hitting the Wall unprepared and for what happens after, here is where the lifelong irrecoverable omegas of both genders have an advantage. It’s almost like the old sit-com/stand-up trope of the person going to hell and being led around by the old timer. Except here, it’s the omega showing the new person, more often a woman because their SMV high is higher, typically, and drops like the first hill on the Beast (google it)at King’s Island into a tunnel. Except at the end of this tunnel is not the sun and the rest of a fun ride, but… Read more »

Doc
Guest
Doc

“I just don’t agree with you(r) philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30.” I do not believe that was the “point” of what was said – but simply the fact that once a woman goes past 30, her SMV plummets – whereas a man’s is still going up. I would expect women to complain about this fact being pointed out so blatantly – that doesn’t make it untrue, only annoying to women who are up against that wall… I was at a retirement dinner for a friend not that long ago, and her younger sister… Read more »

Rooster
Guest
Rooster

“Guys don’t seek out the community because they’re getting too much pussy from being ‘Nice’ and appreciative of women’s ‘deeper’ qualities and they don’t know how to let down all these women easy”

Haha! That made me properly laugh out loud.

feral1404
Guest
feral1404

“Marriage is a young man’s curse and an old man’s comfort.” I’ve heard that thrown about by my old man for as long as I can remember.

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

Fucking epic dodge! Congrats.

AD
Guest
AD

Hey Rollo,

Why don’t you write a post about how a man seeing pictures of his current wife or GF sucking some guys cock might change his opinion about her. This is especially relevant since the explosion of cheap digital cameras and the internet in the last decade has created an amazing opportunity to find and share such intimate moments.

SpecialK
Guest
SpecialK

“So let me get this right. I should appreciate old women for their non-looks based value. Just as they appreciated me in my nice guy 20′s……..oh no they were fucking the nasty boys and leaving me alone.” This is the core of the issue. As a man, I do appriciate the non-looks value of older women. I’d LOVE to have Betty White or Cloris Leachman in my social circle. But I have zero interest in dating or fucking them because they don’t turn me on. I assume the reverse is *probably* true of women. On some level, women see white-knights… Read more »

martaj1618
Guest

Reblogged this on Blyad.

immoralgables
Guest
immoralgables

This and John Galts stories were the most Interesting comments. Rollo, because of your efforts I no longer fear being sIngle. As a man in his mid-twenties, reading your opinions and stories like the one above make me realize that I have much to look forward to as Long as I don’t stagnate. That right there is enough to give me confidence day to do; more so than I usually would. For a relatively younger man like myself it is a great feeling to realize your value and that all things equal, you are an appreciating asset. This mindset would… Read more »

39joshua
Guest

Yes, this was a good essay, rather Niebuhrian actualy (as in Reinhold Niebuhr, the great American theologian of the 20th century).

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

This comment from S seems to typify the Femnist/Liberal perspective that things, especially when it comes to women getting what they want, should be “fair”. It’s not fair that men wont be interested in a woman if she’s not young and attractive, men should appreciate her for her deeper qualities, for her unique and special self. It’s actually the same way that beta men think that women should appreciate them for their niceness and their willingness to treat women “right”. The unfortunate thing is though, that life isn’t fair, and that neither strategy works. Men are finding this out earlier… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

I’m here to help.

S
Guest
S

I’m delighted that my comment provoked such a response. First of all, I am in my twenties and as I have commented in the previous post..began a relationship in my late teens with a man I eventually became incompatible with (we both changed a large amount in eight years, as you do). I didn’t leave him to jump on any sort of “cock carousel”..the decision was mutual. Now I see a lot of comments up above that are pretty nasty. This one in particular: “YOHAMI July 16th, 2012 at 11:48 am “I just don’t agree with you philosophy that women… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

S, what I think you’re failing to grasp is the difference between what you’d like to be appreciated for and the realities of the environment you’re actually functioning in.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about relational equity:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/05/21/relational-equity/

Neither does the SMP care about how wonderful a person you think you are and should be appreciated for in spite of the SMP’s strictures.

That’s the harsh reality of it. All I do is hold up a mirror, you have to want to look.

S
Guest
S

No Rollo, I do appreciate what you are saying and I am aware that men are more looks orientated than women would like. Just when I think of that term of the sexual market place..I just get this visual of a cowboy in a field full of cattle, pointing at one and going “I’ll have that one”. I understand that people cannot help what they are attracted to..so if a man chooses a woman based primarily on her physical attributes..what does he do when she declines? Trade up? Take a mistress? It almost makes me reluctant to use the physical… Read more »

Rock Throwing Peasant
Guest

(And for your information, I define an appropriate suitor as someone compassionate, loving and respectful). You define it that way…now, because you’re closing in on the wall. To put it another way, you passed by many, man guys who were very compassionate, loving and respectful in your 20s. However, they weren’t tall anough, or exciting enough, or athletic enough, or… No, you had a chance to go for the men with hearts of gold and you never gave them a second look. Those “nice guys” who were absolutely fantastic friends to guys like me, but were too chubby, too short,… Read more »

S
Guest
S

No, if you read the above entry properly, I was in a relationship for 8 years…to a “nice guy”. I have’t been passing up offer upon offer because I haven’t had the chance. Do the math.

S
Guest
S

Pardon me, my mistake. I didn’t mention 8 years here, I mentioned in the previous post.

YOHAMI
Guest

What’s the story with the nice guy, you got dumped?

YOHAMI
Guest

“I just get this visual of a cowboy in a field full of cattle, pointing at one and going “I’ll have that one”.”

More like this, a hundred cowboys, a hundred cows, 80% of the cows want the same cowboy, that cowboy picks one, or two, or all of them. The rest of the cowboys are left blueballs. The rest of the cows wonder where all the good cowboys are.

Eventually cows settle and cowboys think they got lucky. But the settlement isnt strong, and the luck isnt so.

S
Guest
S

Bit of a personal question there Yohami.

“First of all, I am in my twenties and as I have commented in the previous post..began a relationship in my late teens with a man I eventually became incompatible with (we both changed a large amount in eight years, as you do). I didn’t leave him to jump on any sort of “cock carousel”..the decision was mutual”..

That should answer your question as sufficiently as I’m willing to on a public forum. And I did mention 8 years..whoops. Dayum. Not sharp today.

YOHAMI
Guest

ok, what was the age gap?

YOHAMI
Guest

And “mutual” usually means it was your idea 😉

koevoet
Guest
koevoet

RTP – In her defense: “First of all, I am in my twenties and as I have commented in the previous post..began a relationship in my late teens with a man I eventually became incompatible with (we both changed a large amount in eight years, as you do). I didn’t leave him to jump on any sort of “cock carousel”..the decision was mutual.” I really don’t want to know all the details of her relationship, but if she was passing up the ‘nice guys’ throughout her 20’s…it would be a sign of loyalty. The question is, is the guy she… Read more »

koevoet
Guest
koevoet

Most of my points have been touched on. Apparently I type way too slow!

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

HI S, I was in a relationship all of my twenties with my ex-husband. We met in the summer before I turned twenty. We do have a child together; she’s five. So, in some ways I can relate to your situation, and it others mine is different, since I am not necessarily looking to have more children, although, when I first got divorced I had more hope that was still possible. First of all, I think its great that you ended up at this blog. There is a lot of excellent discussion and insight that goes on here. While at… Read more »

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

I think you’re misinterpreting the “Sexual Marketplace” idea. It’s essentially an Economics analogy, where two parties trade so that each ends up with something that they value more than what they give up. And the more value you can bring to the table, the more you can expect in return for it. BOTH sides need to give and receive, and BOTH sides are both buyers and sellers, it’s not just men “buying” women. If we apply it to your cowboys and cattle metaphor, if the cowboy wanted a particular very high quality cow, he would need to “pay” more for… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Why be so graphic? Sometimes all it takes is a simple expression,…

http://lmao.co/wp-content/uploads/duckface.jpg

S
Guest
S

Thank you GeishaKate, To answer your questions..1) I ended up here just browsing Google Search for more information on dating. I understand that I should try to get myself back out there and I feel clueless..2) My relationship goals are..well, not to sound gooey, I want to be responsible for making someone happy again. And I want to be happy with someone who’s both my friend and more. I do realize that there out ways to do this outside of the relationship sphere..but I am also aware that I if I want the above..it’s wise to recommence now, in my… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

One year gap, first of each other – this is sounding more and more like a truly nice guy love story -> until boredom breaks them apart. I take you’re about 24 now?

I like what you said, being responsible of making someone else happy and being with someone who’s your friend and more. Aight.

But are you looking to get married and build a lifelong partnership? or, you’re looking for a special spark and nurture it and see where it goes?

Hint: the second one is the “carousel”

S
Guest
S

I’m not going to give away my exact age (not out of insecurity..out of security more than anything)…but I will say I’m at the shittier end of the twenties. I took time out to heal after the relationship breakdown. I do get asked out and have tried a bit of dating but I’m intimidated by it…so I’m not entirely truthful I guess when I say that I haven’t said “no” to people. It’s more out of fear than being ruthless in the pursuit of an “alpha male”. I do want to have children..marriage not entirely..a committed long term relationship would..certainly.… Read more »

S
Guest
S

When I pick that second option I mean…I am not going to mention marriage and lifelong partnership only into a few dates. I think most special relationships begin with a spark (there does have to be SOMETHING there on both sides)…and see how it goes..or: have women been cultured to believe that this is how it goes?

Like I said, I am inexperienced.

Don’t worry, I have no intentions of jumping on any carousel.. intentionally. I value my body and wouldn’t give it away to just any Tom, Dick (pardon the pun) or Harry.

YOHAMI
Guest

That’s the thing. You either screen for a spark or you screen for lifelong commitment. You can make the spark the most important subsection after the lifelong commitment criteria has met, but, without it: Looking for the spark creates serial monogamy. You feel great with a guy, try it out, then he doesnt want to commit, or you dont, or he finds someone hotter, or you feel a stronger spark with someone else. Then in between relationships you feel a strong spark with a random stranger and you get sweept off your feet. That’s the world I live in. And… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

The spark IS the carousel baby.

S
Guest
S

OK..this information will be of use. 🙂

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Not to gouge you in any way (you seem sincere), but have you read the follow up to Navigating the SMP?

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/smv-in-girl-world/

S
Guest
S

Thanks Yohami, still somewhat away from thirty but as always it’s good to think ahead.

I will have a look at this, Rollo. Thank you.

Jon
Guest
Jon
koevoet
Guest
koevoet

I think what Yohami is driving at is that the spark is something you feel. Feelings change, or could be inaccurate from the get go. No, don’t bring up marriage and babies on the first couple of dates. That will scare many guys off who will think you’re off kilter, and conversely, many of the guys who would be receptive to this are themselves off kilter. Screening for marriage worthy traits is something that needs to happen in your head. Is this guy stable? Is he going to be loyal? What is he bringing to the table and is this… Read more »

immoralgables
Guest
immoralgables

Hold up S you fear giving up too many details give me a break. You have no avatar pic and your username reveals scant info so relax a little. Your “mutual” reasons for ending it sound just like the backward rationalizations that occur when a girl loses attraction to his nice guy boyfriend. I’ve seen it before, heard it before an been through it before. Let’s call a spade a spade but if you’re still opening your eyes to the reality of the way things are then I understand; it takes time to get rid of the delusions and rationalizations.… Read more »

immoralgables
Guest
immoralgables

*to her nice guy boyfriend

S
Guest
S

immoralgables, I am not here for your benefit and having read that made me wonder whether I should continue posting. I am here because I am trying to understand what is going on in the dating world and gain insight. Rationalizations? “reading your posts helps me learn about that type of mindset and helps me to spot the rationalizing that I used to believe oh so wholeheartedly”? I do not have to try to prove to you or anyone that the decision was mutual. Believe what you want. Just because we didn’t marry doesn’t mean that I should be doomed… Read more »

S
Guest
S

Thank you koevoet,

“You may even have to reject men who you “feel the spark for” if you see massive red flags”..

I liked this.

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

S, I never really dated and don’t in fact really believe in it. But, yes, I certainly identify with feeling clueless. You’ll want to take my advice with a grain of salt as I am still learning myself, but I can share the path I’ve taken. Here are some books you may find beneficial: Dating with Drama (Paige Parker), The Rules (you’d probably like it cause its very strict and you sound like you hold yourself to high standards), Why Men Marry Bitches (Sherry Argov), Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus/ Mars and Venus on a Date… Read more »

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

HAHAHA! That book title is Dating WithOUT Drama. lol

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

You definitely want to reject those guys. Because, really, S, what this site and many others with similar ideologies attempt to teach is that biology drives our behaviors. Once your biology kicks in, you can really be at its mercy and find yourself attached to someone you don’t even want to be anymore. Inexperience is both a wonderful thing in that you can really value and appreciate the new experiences you have, but it is also usually very heavily guarded because it can be exploited.

GeishaKate
Guest
GeishaKate

S,
And one last thing as you may be getting overwhelmed by information and need to take a processing break, this article and blog may be helpful to you.

http://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/a-guide-to-entering-the-manosphere-for-women/

-GeishaKate 🙂

S
Guest
S

Freudian slip (just kidding 😉 )?

Thanks. I just feel uncomfortable blindly going in. I am glad this “spark” thing was mentioned here because I would have never thought that to be something to watch out for.

I am not looking for an “alphamale” type..not out of settling because I have been asked out by a few “alphamales” since and have said “no” flat out. Not interested in being a notch on a bedpost or a “pump and dump”.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

“Alpha male” is not synonymous with “pump & dump”

Trust me, you’re very much interested in an Alpha, it’s hard-coded into your psyche.

Retrenched
Guest
Retrenched

^^ RTP wins.

S
Guest
S

Can you elaborate Rollo on the first statement?

On the second..I’m not entirely sure what your definition of an alphamale is but I am assuming it’s an attractive, high achieving man with status and popularity or some variation of that?

S
Guest
S

Haha Retrenched…have you even read any of my posts?

D-Man
Guest
D-Man

Interesting that the language of young plugged-in betas and aging women is so similar. (“I’m a good perrrson”… etc).

You’d think they’d make a good match for each other, since they share so many feeeelings. But how rarely we see that actually happen and stick.

S
Guest
S

OK, I think that I have said my part. I have laid out my story and have gained some knowledge. I will continue reading the comments but I don’t think I have further to add. I can see this escalating into something unpleasant.

I’m off to do something productive with my final years of twentie-ness.

koevoet
Guest
koevoet

Hopefully you’ve learned something useful. I’d recommend going through the back log of older posts. Most of them on here will be of some benefit, I know they were to me.

Best of luck!

S
Guest
S

Oh and thank you to those who have tried to help..^^^…digested and appreciated.

x

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Contrast is king.

Joe
Guest
Joe

>>>The women who have the highest SMV, those who have the youth and beauty that men desire most are not exactly lining up to be with meek and poor, but nice, loyal, dependable men of good character. Sorry, I call BS on that. They generally don’t care about nice & loyal & dependable, though when it’s beta time they’ll settle for it. They’re lining up with the guys who will give them the best combination of rock’em sock’em hay rolling, and financial stability. When they can’t get a pro basketball player (worth more in the divorce settlement than the marriage)… Read more »

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[…] may not be news, but I just came across the following sacrilegious picture – and apparently it’s […]

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

You misunderstood my statement. I’m saying that women don’t line up to be with men who are meek, poor AND nice, loyal dependable men of good character. The nice, loyal, dependable characteristics that society tells us women like don’t attract women when they have their pick of men to choose from, although they may accept them as value adds on a man who already gives them the tingles.

S
Guest
S

Can I actually ask…what exactly is “The Wall”…to you guys. My loose interpretation of it was always when a woman “loses her looks”…but I didn’t think this happened until later in life, I know many attractive 30-33 year olds that have their pick of the day and woulld put many a girl in her twenties to shame. Genuinely. So I can only assume that your (the forums) definition is the transition between 29 and 30?

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

Yeah, when a woman loses her looks is a fair enough definition, but there’s also perhaps some connotations to a ticking biological clock in there too. And also maybe a tendency to change in their taste in men to reflect their diminishing beauty. Many who use the term seem to think that this starts to happen at around 30, but don’t get too hung up on that specific number, because as you said women do tend to age at different rates. I do think that you might be overestimating the amount of women in their thirties who would put your… Read more »

S
Guest
S

Yeah, it’s a term I have seen before arriving at this blog but have never heard in reality. I always attributed it to a woman losing her looks but to place it at exactly 30 seems to me to be too precise a calculation…as there are many variable to be taken into consideration I would imagine. For example, a party girl, serial tanner and smoker could probably lose her looks long before she reaches 30 whereas a clean living late bloomer might not even realize her potential until her mid to late twenties. I’ve seen women from my school..the most… Read more »

Apollo
Guest
Apollo

Yes, I’ve never heard the term outside of the Manosphere really, not in the MSM or in real life, but it’s quite commonly used here. And yes, clean living does make a difference in how women age. Tanning especially does a real number on women. And I think the reason why the people who were unattractive when they were in high school sometimes get better looking when they get a bit older is because they are given the incentive to work for it, and to improve themselves. I think having it too easy in high school is a real detriment… Read more »

S
Guest
S

There is the contrast aspect..meaning if the woman looks better in the later years compared to how she used to look (ugly duckling) of course you will think of her as better looking. However, I know a woman who looked like a child literally..until she hit her early twenties. She looks a large amount better now having lost her facial baby fat in addition to gaining curves. I glad of this because she was often overlooked by guys in favor of the more “sexy” girls who have since declined (we all deserve our peak)..I think many good looking women in… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Im sure these exist but that’s not how it work for most women. Most unattractive 32s+ something women I know were ten times more attractive 10-12 years ago, it’s just how it is. Some of them still can pull the strings for casual sex, but they have to switch to way less attractive men for relationships = the wall.

S
Guest
S

“Most unattractive 32s+ something women I know were ten times more attractive 10-12 years ago”

Unattractive or attractive?

No, I see what you mean, there would be a contrast appearance wise between a 24 year old and a 32 year old woman on the basis of hormonal alterations and normal wear and tear alone. I hope to be off the market years before that point.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

You’re never off the market.

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