Final Exam – Navigating the SMP

You know, there’s really no substitute for graphs, and charts, and data plot maps. Human beings, being essentially a visually oriented species, see a graphic heads-up display, a God’s eye view as it were, as essential to seeing the forest for the trees. You may not like being on a budget at home, but show a guy a graph of where all his money goes in a month and he’ll feel better about not pissing it away for a peck on the cheek over the course of a couple weekends.

So it was with this in mind that I took it upon myself to plot out a chronology of the little known and far too under-appreciated sexual marketplace (SMP) we presently find ourselves experiencing (at least since the sexual revolution). Bloggers in the manosphere (as well as other self-impressed pseudo-feminist gender pundits) often use the SMP in a context which presumes that readers are already familiar with their mental model of it, and understand the dynamics of the modern SMP. Personally I think this presumption is fraught with individual bias, both intended and unintended. And make no mistake, I’m about to define the SMP and sexual market values (SMV) from my own perception, but I fully recognize the want for defining these dynamics in a clear, understandable format, so I’ll beg forgiveness for this indulgence.

Can I Graduate?

As some of you know it’s about graduation time for many high school seniors, and with that comes a lot of pontification from ‘adults’ who want to impart some grand words of wisdom to the next genration as they launch headlong into a future of student debt and/or dismal employment prospects. This is a special time for parents and childless adults alike to reflect upon their own lives and ask themselves “what would I tell my younger self to do differently?” and hope against hope that the 18 year old they feel compelled to cast in the role of their younger selves will tear themselves away from texting their friends about who’s going to get whom to buy their prom night liquor long enough for it to sink in. So you’ll have to forgive me for playing the professor here for a moment while I make the same vain attempt.

Not long ago I had a commenter tell me,..

“Rollo, I just wanted to say that your stuff has been truly groundbreaking for me. This material should be a graduation requirement for all high school seniors.”

Well, far be it from Dr. Rollo J. Tomassi, Professor Emeritus, to be so remiss in his sacred charge of educating the next generation about the perils of the sexual marketplace they would otherwise so blindly stagger into. Challenge accepted. So please gather round the podium, turn off all your cellular devices (prom night liquor’s easy to come by), take a sheet of notebook paper from your Pee Chee folder and prepare to take notes on,..

Navigating the SMP

Now class, if you’ll direct your attention to the display above (click on it for the larger version) I’ll explain the parameters of this graph. In the vertical column we have Sexual Market Value (SMV) based on the ubiquitous ten scale. Professor Roissy emeritus at The Chateau did us all the good service of elaborating upon individuated sexual market valuations for both men and women long ago, however for our purposes today it is important to note that these valuations are meant to encompass an overal sexual value based on both long and short term breeding prospects, relational desirability, male provisioning capacity, female fertility, sexual desirability and availability, etc. et. al.. Your milage may vary, but suffice it to say the ten scale is meant to reflect an overall value as individuated for one sex by the other. Outliers will always be an element of any study, but the intent is to represent general averages here.

On the horizontal metric we have a timeline based on the age of the respective sex. I’ve broken this down into stages of five year increments, but with notable ages represented for significant life-to-valuation phase for each sex to be detailed later in our lecture. As an aside here you may notice I began the SMV age range at 15. This is intentional as it is the baseline starting point for the average girl’s midrange desirability value as evaluated by the average high school boy of the same age. Also of note will be the age range between 23 and 36 which represents the peak span years between the sexes, also to be detailed later.

Lastly, I’ve color delineated each gender’s respective SMV range bell curve and indicated their crossover phases accordingly.

Women’s SMV

In various contexts, women’s SMV is without doubt the most discussed topic in the manosphere. Try as we may, convincing a woman that her sexual peak lay actually between 18 and 25 is always an effort in debating denial. For all the self-convincing attempts to redefine sexual valuation to the contrary, SMV for women is ultimately decided by Men. Thus this bell curve is intended to represent the sexual value of women based on men’s metrics, not as women (by way of ceaseless social engineering) would like to define desirability. Please see the Myth of Sexual Peak and Sexy for cross references.

As we continue along you can see that the peak years for women’s SMV tops out at around 23 years. Fertility, desirability, sexual availability  and really overall potential for male arousal and attention reach an apex between 22 to 24 year of age. Remember this approximation isn’t an estimate of personal worth or character, or any metric beyond a baseline of desirability invoked in men. Ladies, on average, this is your best year. I don’t think I’m relating anything the cold truth of your hindbrain hasn’t woke you up at night over.

At no other phase in your life will you enjoy more affirmation or legitimate male attention more zealously applied for your sexual approval than this brief stretch. Once past the apex, every effort you spend on generating male arousal cues will be in trying to recapture the experiences of this phase. Every post-apex, pre-Wall (24 to 30) calorie you burn will be motivated by the memories of your SMV peak.

By the age of 27 women’s SMV decline has begun in earnest. That isn’t to say that women can’t remain stunningly attractive and vivacious in their post-peak years, but comparative to the next crop of 22-23 year olds, the decline progressively becomes more evident. Competition for hypergamously suitable mates becomes more intense with each passing year. The age’s between 27 and 30 are subliminally the most stressful for women as the realization sinks in that they must trade their ‘party years’ short term mating protocol for a long term provisioning strategy.

It’s at this point that rationalizations of ‘living a new life’ or ‘getting right with herself’ begin to formulate; not as a result of guilt per se, but rather as a function of relieving the anxieties associated with the new reality that she will eventually no longer be able to compete effectively in the SMP. The writing’s on the Wall; either she must establish her own security and provisioning, or settle for as acceptable a provider as her present looks will permit to secure his long term provisioning.

Men

It may seem dismally pessimistic to begin boys SMV at so low a starting point at 15, but recall that we’re looking at overall averages. A 15 year old girl will look at an 18-20 year old man’s sexual approval as more valuable than that of her same age peers. It’s not that notable boys’ attentions are worthless, but they are far more mundane to a mid teens girl, thus the evaluation starts much lower.

As men age you can see that their SMV tends to level off during their 20’s with a gradual rise up to age 30. This represents men’s slow build SMV as they become more valuable by metrics of physical prowess, social gravity, status, maturity, affluence, influence, and hopefully dominance. It’s a slow process and unfortunately, of a man’s significant maturing to his SMV, most of it occurs while women are reaching their own SMV peak. At age 23, while a girl is enjoying her prime SMP value, a man is just beginning to make his own gradual ascent.

By age 36 the average man has reached his own relative SMV apex. It’s at this phase that his sexual / social / professional appeal has reached maturity. Assuming he’s maximized as much of his potential as possible, it’s at this stage that women’s hypergamous directives will find him the most acceptable for her long-term investment. He’s young enough to retain his physique in better part, but old enough to have attained social and professional maturity.

Comparative SMV and the Peak Span Years

One important note here is to compare men and women’s SMV decline. Women’s SMV being primarily based on the physical, has a much more precipitous decline than that of men’s. who’s decline is graduated upon a declining capacity to maintain his status as well as his health / looks. Since a man’s SMV is rooted in his personal accomplishments, his SMV degradation has much more potential for preservation. Women’s SMV burns hot and short, but men’s burns slow and long.

Now class, please address your attention to the critical 15-16 year span between a woman’s peak SMV and that of men’s. It should come as no surprise that this span is generally the most socially tumultuous between the sexes. The majority of first marriages take place here, single-motherhood takes place here, advanced degrees, career establishments, hitting the Wall, and many other significant life events occur in this life stage. So it is with a profound sense of importance that we understand the SMV context, and the SMP’s influence as prescribed to each sexes experience during this period.

At age 30 men are just beginning to manifest some proto-awareness of their sexual value, while simultaneously women are becoming painfully aware of their marked inability to compete with their sexual competitors indefinitely. This is the point of comparative SMV: when both sexes are situationally at about the same level of valuation (5). The conflict in this is that men are just beginning to realize their potential while women must struggle with the declination of their own.

This is the primary phase during which women must cash in their biological chips in the hope that the best men they can invest their hypergamy with will not be so aware of their innate SMV potential that they would choose a younger woman (22-24) during her peak phase over her. I wrote about this in The Threat:

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

The confluence between both sexes’ comparative SMV is perhaps the most critical stage of life for feminine hypergamy. She must be able to keep him ignorant of his SMV potential long enough to optimize her hypergamy. In men’s case, his imperative is to awaken to his SMV (or his potential of it) before he has made life-altering decisions based on a lack understanding his potential.

Every man who I’ve ever known to tell me how he wished he’d known of the manosphere or read my writing before getting married or ‘accidentally’ knocking up his BPD girlfriend has his regret rooted in not making this SMV awareness connection. They tended to value women more greatly than their own potential for a later realized SMV peak – or they never realized that peak due to not making this awareness connection.

Well, I’m afraid that’s all I have space for today class. I hope this brief intensive has given you some food for thought as you enter a feminized world legally and socially dedicated to the benefit of optimizing hypergamy. Just remember, as you see your illustrious manosphere instructors gazing proudly from the gallery in our professorial caps and gowns, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Class dismissed.

––––––––––––

[Update] Star student White Raven at Elephants and Trees has posted his most excellent term paper regarding the SMP. A+, highly recommended.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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walawala
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walawala
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Great post…A few comments to make. I live in Asia.

I’ve banged women 37-39 who have great bodies, faces, look and dress outstanding and when compared to Western women of equal or even slightly younger, well, Asia women are incredible…when they take care of themselves.

So I wonder if there are exceptions to this idea of SMV declining for women after age 30 or is there some cultural dynamic that can adjust the bell-curve?

Rollo Tomassi
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Data is not the plural of anecdote.

A.B. Dada
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I have 2 long distance gals in the rotation who are my age, are still beautiful, are submissive in nature and domestic in needs-providing, and absolutely love masculinity in men. They are so outside of the bell curve that it almost feels unnatural at times.

Some of my Chicago-area gal pals in their late 30s are still relatively good looking, but they’re so fucked up in the head as to be not just undateable, but unrailable,.

A.B. Dada
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The one thing I’ve told young men for over a decade is this: gain a social talent, don’t spend money on toys, save your cash and look for small local business niches to invest in. The few who have listened to me have skipped the nightmare of dating bar skeeze BPD sluts with diseases, and have matured into confident and high SMV men. The right time to get a son to swallow the red pill totally is the day he discovers masturbation. To think that fathers have failed their sons for so many decades, it’s no wonder that so many… Read more »

Danger
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And the hamster army wept.

(R)Evoluzione
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Great post. For a long time, I’ve been looking for a good introductory page for young men to compliment the 16 commandments of poon, providing more context than instruction. This one will serve nicely in that capacity. To expand this conversation, I’d like to suggest the idea that men’s SMV is more variable than women’s. For example, notoriety and good health can extend a man’s peak into a long plateau that may last well into his 40’s and even 50’s. Even in the general population of men, there’s a greater level of diversity in the average age of peak for… Read more »

Marx
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Interesting to note that data and analytics are the realms of men, as most men are able to–and prefer to–conclude from numbers.

theprivateman
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One of the biggest ironies in the SMP is the concept of “trading season” for women. This is when, in their late 30s, women decide that they can do better and aren’t haaaaappy in their marriages. Divorce ensues but hilarity does not, especially for the kids. Here’s a wee post of mine that covers it with a humorous video clip:

http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/trading-season/

And why is it that women would do such a thing when their value in the SMP is not exactly what it was 15 years previously? The answer is the The Female Self-Esteem Crisis. Yeah, I posted on that, too:

http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/the-female-self-esteem-crisis/

(R)Evoluzione
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AB, Your advice is spot-on. It would have been amazing at age 5-25 to have a mentor and guide for business acumen as well as female relations. Yet, even for men who’ve made mistakes early on, it’s almost never too late to right the ship. Regarding the book idea, a guide for teen boys–I was in desperate need of such manly advice at that age. Using your benchmark of masturbation as the time to onset the red pill, my dad would have had to start dispensing red-pill knowledge when I was 4-5 years old I started early. It would have… Read more »

Team-Red
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At what age do the future cat collectors cut off all their hair once they realize the wall is imminent and cankles are on the horizon? Spin hamster spin.

Side note, how do I handle the shame tactics of the wives of my buddies for labeling me a cradle snatcher for dating a 22 year old and i’m 34? They dont invite us anywhere to join “couples gatherings”

Stingray
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Why do you want to go? They will likely make the evening for your date extremely uncomfortable.

Otherwise a plain ol’ “Jealous?” ought to make the point. They will argue with you to save face, but the hamster knows the truth.

Cyrus
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As a 21 year old male i don’t believe this. Yes, man’s SMV tends to trend up from 20-30, but if any of my dozens of friends in their mid-twenties have told me, it only gets harder after college. I don’t understand how the manosphere likes to make guys drink this kool aid. Don’t get married because marriage is a broken system, NOT don’t get married because you haven’t hit you SMV peak yet…, Men of some careers DO experience this. Writers, such as yourself Rollo, photographers, club owners/promoters, yeah their SMV will increase till 40. But what about Mr.… Read more »

Cyrus
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Oh by SMV you mean more women trying to trap you into empregnating them? Yes, that increases with age.

You come hotter to women? False. If testosterone peaks age 23-25 that clearly can’t be the case.

Ted D
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Team-Red – First, who cares what your friends wives say? What do you friends think of your young GF? Be sure to ask them when their wives aren’t around…

Second, why would you want to expose your GF to that kind of female BS anyway? IF they stopped being mean to her, they would just turn her into one of them anyway.

Lone_Wolf (@Lone_Wolf8)
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Reading comprehension just isn’t your strength, is it?

It’s not Kool-Aid, it’s fucking science kid. Just because you don’t believe it, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true.

derthal
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derthal
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Take control over your own life instead of allowing your testosterone to control it and you will see. Testosterone will help you just utilize it daily.

A.B. Dada
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I spent the last 2 years shedding my body fat from when I was in my 20s (I was obese as fuck when I was married). Now I’m on a 12 week LeanGains recomp and the difference after 4 weeks is stunning. I have guy friends in their mid-20s who can not believe the difference in my physique, and I can openly see the difference with younger females (even though I’m not getting huge, just cut). The testosterone boost from doing squats once a week is evident in my sex life — I’ve always been able to go long and… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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But what about Mr. Bathroom grouter? It’s nothing more than naive to say that *all* men peak late – Mr. Grouter probably peaked in Hs. For your answer I will defer to my esteemed colleague Professor Roissy and his magnum opus The 16 Commandments of Poon. Your answer in bold. XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester,… Read more »

Stingray
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Don’t know much about leangains, but I do remember you saying that you eat meat and veggies. I have read that some people thrive on this (we are currently doing this as well with some dairy mixed in) and that others, especially those that work out hard need more carbs for energy. Obviously you don’t want to go the bread route, but sweet potatoes, roasted beets, fried taters, etc might help your energy levels.

Cyrus
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Science usually indicates decline starting around 22-25. Testosterone, VO2 max, athletic ability, to even bone density. So don’t take it to science. I inherently disagree with manosphere’s 33 is prime. It is for some men but not for all. Honestly this peak you guys all go on and on about seems just like hitting the first career high point. Ie the age my father finished specialization in his discipline in medicine, also the age many people get corporate promotions to greater leadership positions. To this extent, you should really add a caveat that this peak is relative to the individual… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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Great chart, but what we need to see next to it is a chart that outlines western women’s PERCEIVED smv. These chicks think they are fabulous well into their 30’s and even 40’s and with the goal these days being sex instead of commitment there are no shortage of men who are willing to prop up this artificial value by banging a cougar.

Good Luck Chuck
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A couple of notes regarding the chart- 1) Women’s SMV would start out much higher at age 15-16 if our culture and laws weren’t set up to artificially raise the age of consent. 2) You are spot on about a man’s SMV peaking around age 38. If the ability to nail hotter, younger, tighter pussy is indicative of a male’s SMV that would put me right square in that range cause I banged the youngest and the hottest ass between the ages of 34-39. The hottest I ever had was when I was 38. The youngest relative to my age… Read more »

MCM
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MCM
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Great article. I had a response, but I want to edit it down, as there are some ideas I want to throw out there, plus personal experiences which confirm a lot of this. Off topic, I suppose, but my sister is 20 years old, and as of late has been coming to me for advice on relationships, on guys, on girls, on social dynamics, on figuring out what she wants, why she feels a certain way about a guy who acts like X but does Y, etc… What advice can I give her regarding relationships beyond what I know from… Read more »

(R)Evoluzione
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Physiological prime is not the same as social prime. Male attractiveness is far more connected to social status, charisma, social proof, and personal power than it is to raw physiology. In addition, raw hormone numbers do not tell the story. Men in their 30’s through 60’s maintain elevated testosterone, AND cellular sensitivity to testosterone increases. Mitochondria, the cellular power plants, continue to increase in number well into the 40’s. The best triathletes in the world are in their 40’s, because it takes that long to build power and stamina over time in several domains to get good at triathlon. LIfe… Read more »

MCM
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Without explicating my many previous sexual exploits, if 38 is going to be my prime (considering I get my act together and move beyond what problems I’ve created/ had heaped upon me, & overcome the many obstacles I know lie ahead; which I am determined to, & thus I will), I won’t be surprised if I become an Apollonian Marquis de Sade of Byronic sorts. So at 23, when I thought I’d long past my prime, I now have much to look forward to, and a newfound hope. The journey has only just begun. Onward and upward.

(R)Evoluzione
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AB, that’s funny, you and I have a sort of reversed history with money/fitness. I was rail thin/ripped throughout by teens & twenties, but was living check-to-check, more or less broke, with bad spending habits to boot. Now I’m still fit, but more bulky (paleo + lifting heavy), but finally getting my business & financial acumen where they should be. I find the business thing doesn’t do much for short-term prospects, but when engaging a potential LTR, the mid-to late-twenties ladies vet hard for financial viability. So I’m doing well in the short game, but I know that I need… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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You have NO idea. When I was younger my dad told me that a man’s 30’s are the best time of his life. Didn’t realize what he meant until I was well into mine but he was right. At 23 you’re still a pimply faced kid. Figuratively speaking of course. When you hit your 30’s you will hit your stride. Stay in decent shape and you can land women in their sexual prime. I dated a 21 yr old when I was 31, a 20 yr old when I was 34 and I nailed the 22 yr old when I… Read more »

Jason
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Jason
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Rollo, I wanted to say that I read the essay you linked to, where you discuss morality and sex. Actually, I agree with the thrust of what you say, that sex need not always have great existential meaning and that it can simply be a pleasurable experience. However, I still think even such pleasurable experiences need to be rooted in a more stringent ethical matrix, for reasons that I’m sure that you can guess at (We simply disagree). However, I did also want to say that I was probably unfair regarding your blog over at Dalrocks, focussing as I did… Read more »

Danger
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A 21 year old male doesn’t believe it. Color me surprised. However, you do make a good point about after college, and I have to agree. From about age 21 until 28 I had it much harder than I did from 17 to 21. Mainly because it was harder to meet girls easily, where-as in college, I met new girls all of the time. Having said that, now at the age of 37, I cannot tell you how many girls are constantly checking me out, hinting, making moves. Hell, I just had yet another 20 something married girl throw herself… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/How_a3d51c_1870969.jpg

An Asian chick’s SMV graph would have a much longer hotness peak and then a 90 degree angle straight down lol

Rollo Tomassi
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No worries. I’ve written so much for so long that it’s sometimes easier to just link people unfamiliar with my work to past articles. However I suppose I can’t expect readers to be familiar with my stuff at SoSuave or the 187 posts I have here.

Feel free to browse my archives. I think you’ll see we’re more alike than not.

A.B. Dada
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I looked like an idiot in tailored suits until the week of my 32nd birthday. I just didn’t know it.

GeishaKate
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GeishaKate
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It can be hard to make friends with other couples when they view the age difference as odd/threatening. I don’t have a solution, actually, but it will get easier over time when the difference isn’t as obvious.

eargeggeeag
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eargeggeeag
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I’m somewhat skeptical about the male graph. I’m 28 now. I’m sure when I’m 38 I’ll be more accomplished and nominally higher status. I can’t imagine I’m going to be more physically attractive. Same goes for my peers. About half of us will be bald by then, for chrissakes.

rrbm
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rrbm
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I’ve been telling my friends for a long time the same thing- don’t get married before 30 unless you can definitively say yes to 5 questions. (1) Would you be satisfied having sex with this woman the rest of your life? (Don’t marry a prude unless you are a prude) (also don’t marry a 6 if you want only 8s) (2) Are you certain this woman has a high enough libido to satisfy you for the rest of your life? (Don’t marry a once a week girl if you’re a once a day guy) (also take her current libido and… Read more »

Leap of a Beta
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Interesting. I can’t find as many decent looking women in Chicago as I’d like. Maybe its just being 26 and on the low side of that curve, or looking in the wrong places.

yareallypua
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“I’ve managed to, after drinking after being sober for a few weeks, or the “relapse” I had a week ago from the break up, back to having 3 or 4 days sober, which considering the BPD break up is a huge deal for me and this shit has been exceedingly difficult.” Congrats dude, cutting out alcohol is hard as fuck! Fuck AA and psychobabble feel-good stuff, here’s some cold hard logic to appeal to your Man Brain (lol) that might help you. All 3 of these videos are just dropping solid logic and relate alcohol to pickup, women, socializing, etc.… Read more »

Kurtz
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Kurtz
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Terrible graph.

1. You dont include girls from 13.

2. Girls around 25 are hotter than girls around 13-18. No.

3. I had girlfriends starting age 14. Yet my SMV was extremely low? No.

4. Theres no goddam way women peak at 23.

I know this is just your opinion but its a pretty terrible opinion. Theres data to suggest men have historically placed women most sexually desirable at 14-16.

Team-Red
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Team-Red
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@ Stingray and Ted – Why should I accept being shunned from my own social circle because their wives have a problem with who I’m seeing? Are they that insecure that having a fun, young, and beautiful girl in their presence ruins their entire evening?

BlackCat
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BlackCat
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Cyrus, there is a word for men who do not take the necessary action to actively raise their SMV after their early 20s. What is this word?

“Loser”

And the best advice is the same as Ayn Rand’s quip when asked about the poor:

“Don’t be one.”

samseau
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samseau
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Just think of how much hotter those 37 year olds were at 21.

BlackCat
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BlackCat
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Baldness is not a problem. Baldness without masculinity is. Think about the different bald people you know, and have seen on TV. Who is still attractive? Who is not? What is the difference? If you are going bald and are not a naturally masculine person, work on becoming one, be it through dress, body language (game), exercise (gain muscle!) or preferably some combination of the three. And if you are not more accomplished by a variety of metrics when you are 38, then what the hell were you doing for ten years? Make a plan, set goals, and achieve them.… Read more »

Kurtz
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Kurtz
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“Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.” Regarding attractiveness, its the opposite for women. This is why a woman, who is young, who has never kissed, never had a relationship etc, and is very pretty, has an incredible level of attractiveness. They are goldmines. I’m at uni and I specifically look for these women (they do exist at age 17-18) because they are: 1. easier 2. more loyal 3. more attractive in and of itself because of their femininity and innocence Think about the opposite:… Read more »

Stingray
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Stingray
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If it’s important to you to stay in the circle then, obviously, go. But these women will likely do their best to make your girl very uncomfortable. If she’s sweet, don’t leave her side. If she’s spunky and good with one liners, she might be able to hold her own, but those wives are going to be pissed she is there and even more pissed that their husbands are checking her out. If the women wear the pants in any of those relationships, they will likely be catty to you, your GF and their husbands. And who are your friends… Read more »

eghsehrsdh
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eghsehrsdh
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>Baldness is not a problem.

Stopped reading right there.

walawala
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walawala
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Another question/anecdotal observation…among that hot group of older Asian women I know or bang…many regularly try to make themselves look younger through various beauty treatments and exercise.

They also “act” younger and avoid any references to their age such as “when I was in university” type of references…

I only point this out because I wonder if it’s aligned with this.

The graphs illustrate the trend…but the ones I’m referring to are consciously or subconsciously avoiding or trying to delay the trend…

Simon Corso
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Simon Corso
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” I’m about to define the SMP and sexual market values (SMV) from my own perception, but I fully recognize the want for defining these dynamics in a clear, understandable format, so I’ll beg forgiveness for this indulgence.” No need for begging it’s unseemly and anyways your breakdown is very insightful. I’ve been wondering why it took me to my mid 30’s to be able to to pull the finest tail of my life. Prior to reading this, I just thought I was a late bloomer , or that I waited too long to study and implement game. Thanks for… Read more »

Stingray
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Stingray
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Baldness is not a problem. Baldness without masculinity is.

Case in point. No, baldness is absolutely not a problem with masculinity in droves. wink

yareallypua
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Also this short video just went up and it’s about alcohol as well but bring up some other reasons to ditch it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijB-wn7Il8E

And the related article: http://www.rsdnation.com/julien/blog/new-video-article-non-obvious-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-drink-and-game

Hopefully some point somewhere in here resonates with you cause once you have a reason or a reframe that makes sense to YOU to quit, it’ll be a lot easier.

rob k
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rob k
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the fact that a mans smv value can extend far beyond the female “wall” gives most men a high enough leverage point to cancel out alpha or beta traits. one great tool men have is the ability to improve themselves and increase their vaue.. Fot a media reference look at Clint Eastwood on his wifes new reality show. He is still very alpha.also a mans legacy can live forever. I saw a bumper sticker once that said history rarely remembers well behaved women. This is true. Women are not built to misbehave. This is a feminist ideology. Men can behave… Read more »

Nutz
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Pretty spot-on graph. I’m 35, soon to be 36, and my gf is 22, soon to be 23. We’re both about at our peak attractiveness and are a solid match for each other.

Mac
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@ Cyrus You say that not every man is the same (“Men of some careers”), yet extrapolate out the experience of a few of your mid-20’s buddies to all mid-20’s guys. Check your logic. I had a buddy say the same thing. He was a 5’6″ asian with bug eyes who only learned fratboy game. Of course it was harder for him once he left college; he never learned any real game, and the massive party opportunities didn’t exist. College today is a joke (http://www.usatodayeducate.com/staging/index.php/blog/students-study-less-party-more-and-earn-higher-grades). It’s one big party scene unsupervised by adults. OF COURSE it’s going to be easy… Read more »

YB
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Funny as hell – I didn’t know this stuff ten years ago, when I was 35. Got married to a 23-year-old girl. XD

Wish I’d known relationship game, but wth wth – divorce happens. Just have to pick it up and carry on again.

BlackCat
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Stopped reading right there.

Obviously sentences of more than five words in length are difficult for you…

H T
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LOL. Nothing like a 21 year old kid trying to tell everyone what’s up. Your friends for certain were all frat-boys, confronted now with the cold hard fact that they don’t have what it takes to cut it in the real world. Given you are not a total loser, female attention increases exponentially once you hit 30. This is indisputable.

ThousandMileMargin
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A peak at 23 reflects peak fertility. If you look at centerfolds and starlets it also reflects when their sexual attractiveness peaks. Most readers seem to agree with this, your tastes may vary a bit. However, I think the slope up to 23 should start earlier, and it should be more of a plateau from 18 to 23. There’s no way the average 18 year old is substantially less attractive than the average 23 year old. Again, look at models and porn stars. You can’t really say they haven’t hit their stride at 18. And fashion magazines are full of… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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As I stated in my introduction, this graph is meant to reflect a post-sexual revolution SMV. Your argument would be valid if we still lived in an age where the average lifespan was 40-60 years and our level of social connectivity was limited to agrarian collectives. However I’d argue that with little deviation you could still shift backwards both bell curves to put 17 as a woman’s peak and men’s at around 25 and they’d look essentially the same adjusted for their social and historical differences. When you lived in an environment where men would die in war more frequently,… Read more »

Deep Dish
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It would be easy to draw the chart. Just draw a straight line across the top.

A.B. Dada
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What neighborhoods do you stroll?

Chicago’s hipster cult is pretty annoying, and they love their bicycle riding metrosexual males. Avoid Logan Square.

Wicker Park on a Saturday can be fun if you like artists. Cobra Lounge for rockers is always a good time. DePaul University village in Lincoln Park is good if you’re into the sorority crowd who likes ball games (not I).

A.B. Dada
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Not too long ago, I met a very pretty and intelligent 19 year old and vetted her for a possible LTR. She introduced me to her coed friends; the first time around they hated me and challenged me openly and then challenged her when I left for the night. Of course I told them to basically STFU, but she just shrugged at their complaints. Once it was obvious that she was too busy with school (which, in her case, I actually have encouraged since), I told her LJBF. Her friends who previously hated me put out some pretty strong intent… Read more »

GeishaKate
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Oh dear, I posted my above comment out of place, but I’ll just continue. This would probably be a good topic for a post: dealing with friends, family, and society in general when in a relationship with an age disparity. I know everyone was against my relationship with my ex-husband (eleven years older) and it really did take a lot of the joy out of it that no one supported it. Not my friends, not his, not my family, not his. Its easy to say it doesn’t matter, but it does have an impact. No excitement over our engagement, no… Read more »

tom
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tom
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B R I L L I A N T

blacky
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blacky
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My grand-grandmother told me stories of her childhood. Living near Sochi in the pre communist Russia, she remembered how a girl could only hope to get merried before her 14th birthday. (I suspect sexual maturity to be important) After this there was little chance to get a man to commit. So this girls, if failed to marry, would be of low worth to the family and therefore wouldn’t be protected much. They would have to work on the marketplace. Once a week local tartar bandits would come down from their hidings in the mountains and collect from every trader (every… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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Only in America would there be a problem with a husband being 11 years older than the wife. An ex of mine was 21 when I met her. I was 31. Her stepdad had an issue with it, her mom was perfectly fine with it. Stepdad was apple pie American, mom was foreign born Fillipina. First time I took her to meet my family, my sister asked her how old she was. My sister’s jaw almost hit the floor when she got the answer. Really? This whole “What the hell would a 31 year old have in common with a… Read more »

Leap of a Beta
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Nice, good to know. I live in the square, so I know it and a bit of Wicker Park more than anything (only been in Chicago 10 months). Every time I branched out to try a new place I had fun, but didn’t see much. I’ll try hitting areas you mentioned up.

Rollo Tomassi
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Required reading for the Mature Man (and Geisha Kate):

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/the-mature-man/

Rollo Tomassi
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From The Mature Man It’s not a man’s physical age so much as what the age represents (or is perceived to) – maturity, accomplishment, better provisioning capacity, status, etc. Do ALL men actually realize these to their satisfaction by this time? Of course not, but it’s the perception that they SHOULD have actualized this that is the attractant in comparison to younger guys who haven’t, nor would really be expected to. Mature Men represent this perception of assumed accomplishment and security – exactly what women are looking for in a phase of life where their sexual marketability declines and their… Read more »

GeishaKate
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“Only in America…” Yes, I’m starting to see that. It might explain why I’m occasionally asked if I’m foreign (and it has nothing to do with my horrible spelling). smile

GeishaKate
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lol I did my homework, Rollo smile When I read articles like these two, I am always very grateful that I did the marriage/child route despite the fact that since it did not work out as I had hoped, it is sometimes the exact cause of my singlehood. BUT, I would rather have it this way than the other way around. Now where is that donate button.

King A (Matthew King)
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Accurate chart as far as such an impressionistic topic goes. I would put the peaks at the nice, round numbers of 20 and 30, with the female plateauing until 25, then sharp drop, male plateauing to 40, then gradual drop. Rollo wrote: However I’d argue that with little deviation you could still shift backwards both bell curves to put 17 as a woman’s peak and men’s at around 25 and they’d look essentially the same adjusted for their social and historical differences. This observation gets to the heart of it. The reason why a man’s market value takes longer to… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
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Cyrus wrote: As a 21 year old male i don’t believe this. Of course you don’t. Meantime, your arrogant nonsense proves our point. Boys age 15-25 are scum of the earth. Full of hormone, energy, and ignorance, and still too inexperienced to understand the dangers of that cocktail. They have tasted liberation from their mommies and believe themselves to be free of all constraint. This is why, in the absence of guidance, the 20-year-old boy cannot achieve peak value. He simply does not have the mechanisms of self-control in place, is not wise enough to understand why they need to… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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I am get a kick out of the spastic displays of unchecked testosterone by dudes in their early 20’s. It’s like they are outgunned by older dudes and deep down they know it. It comes out as aggression but it reeks of insecurity. I can think of a couple of occasions where I found myself in the company of a group of younger dudes and it’s totally different than a more controlled status determined interaction between guys who are late 20’s and up. It’s was especially funny to watch a couple of these clowns try to punk me in my… Read more »

Team-Red
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My friends are going to side with their wives to keep the peace and not stir anything up because they’re all “yes dear” types. The kitten i’m seeing is just DTF and wants to have fun, so to her it’s all amusing.

It just seems like with “older guy/younger girl game” everyone seems to hate on it, including friends. I returned to college in early 30’s for a second degree in the medical field and I had my pick of the litter. It was impossible not to date much younger girls.

King A (Matthew King)
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MCM wrote: What advice can I give her regarding relationships beyond what I know from experience…? She’s an extremely intelligent and beautiful young woman, and I’ve enlightened her on many a thing when it comes to this area of life. I should add that compared to every girl I’ve known (save one or two), and of all her friends, she’s by far the most grounded, the least….easily swayed (she’s not a slut). Don’t give her advice, give her specific instruction. Vet her boyfriends and mentor them. As important as her being “intelligent” and self aware is, they are not nearly… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
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Regarding your alcoholism, MCM, just like in Game, there is no substitute for a good mentor. That is one thing AA undeniably got right. Until you find the man who has been where you have been and recovered, all other guidance will eventually lead you back to booze. AA has since gone off the rails, but not for the reasons you think. They have gone too far in your direction (indulging the petulant solipsism of cynical know-it-alls) and away from the basics that made it the wildly successful treatment that it is. If you are so adamant about rejecting the… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
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eargeggeeag wrote: I can’t imagine I’m going to be more physically attractive. So? Who was talking about physical attractiveness? Your first mistake is overestimating that virtue in determining a man’s sexual market value. Testimony like yours is more evidence that youth in men is a DLV. You can’t be this wrong on the fundamentals without mismanaging your SMV, and most men under thirty apparently have to suffer into that wisdom rather than simply believe it, as you continue to confirm. No, baldness per se is not attractive in men. But it is a sign of the experience and maturity that… Read more »

an observer
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When a patriarchical society regulates feminine desire, beta men have ready access to marriage and a sexual partner. Substitute a culture that endorses rotating polyandry, that encourages women to find fulfilment in careers. Add lengthy and unnecessarily long training periods for most jobs. Change the nature of work to make it ‘safe’. Mix, then serve. What comes out is men that struggle to find employment in their adult youth, that resent the stupidly long training times and that increasingly ask: wtf? I would argue that women need far more training and input to make them valuable. A constant focus on… Read more »

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[…] Rational Male just posted a fantastic essay that really got me thinking. As is commonly discussed on the manosphere, women reach their sexual […]

GeishaKate
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My apologies if this one is out of place again. If you are looking for info. for women, I can tell you what I’ve read. Almost everything by John Gray, The Rules, Sherry Argov, Dating without Drama, a bunch of books by Bob Grant. Others who seem on the right track: Mimi Tanner, Evan Mark Katz. Probably the most helpful thing I did though was spend a year reading men’s minds at The Attraction Forums and gaining a virtual army of brothers. Oh, have her read Magic Bullets. Nick Savoy will have a book out in February for women called… Read more »

(R)Evoluzione
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It is said, by bald men, that the more hair you lose, the more head you get.

Baldness is a sign of high DHT, which is a very metabolically form of testosterone. If you’re bald, shave it off, go chrome-dome. It works for a lot of men.

While I’m not bald, I know plenty of mid-30’s dudes who are, and who pull like mad. Like BC said, baldness is not an issue 9if you don’t make it an issue.

Good Luck Chuck
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As far as baldness goes, the biggest challenge is not letting it affect your confidence. I found that as soon as I got up the balls to shave my head everything was fine. I remember the first time I saw my friends after taking the plunge. I was nervous as hell and wore a baseball cap to the bar after work. One of my female coworkers had seen it earlier in the day and made a comment about it. Off came the cap and one of her friends, a tatted up suicide girl type was all over me that night… Read more »

Sal Ceech
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Rollo .. This is one of the most encouraging articles I read ( Im 41 ) =) .. You have done some counseling? MMmmmm well I have been having trouble logging in to SoSuave can I PM or msg some way to get some pointers …with some ..issues ..Thanx much appreciated

Rollo Tomassi
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leave me an email address on my About page.

Doc
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Doc
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“At age 30 men are just beginning to manifest some proto-awareness of their sexual value, while simultaneously women are becoming painfully aware of their marked inability to compete with their sexual competitors indefinitely. ” This is one of the reasons that this age tends to be when most marriages fall apart – the man is seeing he can “do better” from the response of women to him, and the women are trying to trade up while they still can. Of course, this is a problem for them since their SMV is decreasing, while many men are seeing no value in… Read more »

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[…] last week I graphed out my own rudimentary overview of how the SMP lays out, as well as sexual market values relative to each sex. Although I began a bit tongue in cheek, in […]

staffmaster
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So the ideal age to find a girl in her peak is at least 43:

http://i.imgur.com/9egGm.png

Lele
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Maybe, as a non-Asian, you don’t perceive their decreased attractiveness.

Lele
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I agree that such progression are misleading.

The assumption of such progression is that men’s market value is not so much based on their youthful looks as it is on their social status and financial security. Thus the assumption is that you – as a man – keep building your market value through all those years. If you keep adding up to your social skills, job skills, money-management skills, etc. then you’ll land there. If you are trapped in dead-end job, get the f*** out of there.

All the best.

S
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S
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Guys, OK so I get it…a few girls either ignored you are f****d you over during your so called period of irrelevancy…but it seems here that as you external attractiveness increases with age..your internal attractiveness strikingly decreases. So what happens when you are seventy struggling to get your dick up or eighty on your death bed (if you’re lucky, we all know men don’t live too long)..who’s going to hold your hand and be grateful for the genuine contribution you made to their lives (and I’m not talking about the bling bling). Any woman with sense would not stick around… Read more »

S
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S
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Two words @ Kurtz:

Statutory Rape.

S
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S
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I’m into WoW…

Rollo Tomassi
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https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/12/the-myth-of-the-lonely-old-man/

Come back when you’ve got something better than tired tropes to offer.

S
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S
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Fine, I read that. I just don’t agree with you philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30. What if say there were circumstances outside of her control that prevented her from getting married at what a simpleton might deem as an acceptable time…what if she never partied and slept around? There is more to a woman than physicality and it pisses me off that there are men like many of the above (bitter much?) who don’t appear to see worth in a women once her..what’s it called..sexual market value declines…it just strikes me a scarily… Read more »

T
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T
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Sexual market value. As with other arcane ‘game’ terms like: Neg. Take away. AMOG. I wonder how much more this nice girl, and she does present herself as a nice girl here, would agree this these overly ‘male’ terms if they where wrapped up in relateable stories. She made good use of American Psycho for example. She could of pillaged any of the classics or many, many other modern movies and novels instead to give weight, texture and even substance to her words. Damn. We need more cultural touchstones to call on. We need more stories that cut right to… Read more »

koevoet
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S – The vast majority of the men on here realize that there are exceptions to every rule. Not all women are like that is a phrase so commonly used that it has warranted its own acronym. The problem is, many women are like that. Many of the women we have had experience with are like that. Furthermore, telling every woman that she can have her career, slut around, and then get married to some perfect man later in life is hurting women as well as the men they neglect in their prime years. Most men would prefer have a… Read more »

S
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S
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Upon reading this article, I automatically thought of American Psycho..now, I have read The Game by Neil Strauss-> after a male friend referenced it, I thought I’d best educate myself. I just remember this page in American Psycho where they were discussing this lady commenting that at 28 she was “too old” to bang or whatnot and although I have not reached twenty eight yet..I remember feeling slightly disgusted. Nevertheless, American Psycho is an excellent read and does provide insight into how our society is evidently going. Patrick Bateman doesn’t really seem a happy dude. Anyhoo. For me personally I… Read more »

T
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T
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Your worried about the choices you’re made, the place your in right now. Your judging yourself vs your friends and peers trying to work out your ‘status’. This is the most natural thing in the world. We all do this. But you have read some upsetting things, been exposed to some strange concepts. There is a hint that people out there have formed some worldview which doesnt rate your or your choices. Even worse they claim objective moral and ethical truth. Double worse is that a little of what they say seems to make some sense to you. Well done… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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S
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I was thinking about what you said T and I thought I’d ask.. “But you have read some upsetting things, been exposed to some strange concepts.There is a hint that people out there have formed some worldview which doesnt rate your or your choices. Even worse they claim objective moral and ethical truth”. “Well done on engaging with ideas that may seem to devalue you instead of dismissing them out of thought”. What do you say I or anyone else in a similar position DO with this information? Now as I have stated before..I do not regret the choice that… Read more »

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