The Curse of Potential

potential

One of the most frustrating things I’ve had to deal with in this life is knowing men with incredible potential who, for whatever reason, never realize it (or as fully) because they deliberately limit themselves due to a Beta mindset . Whether it’s potential for success due to a particular talent, the potential of their socio-economic state and affluence, or simply dumb luck that put them into a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, their blue-pill ignorance or pride, or rule-bound duty to the feminine imperative thanks to their Beta frame of mind, hold them back from really benefitting from it.

God forbid you’d have to cooperate with a guy like this in a business or creative endeavor where your own livelihood might be attached to his inability to move past his Beta frame or his feminine conditioning. One of the benefits of becoming red pill aware is a heightened sensitivity to how the feminized world we live in is organized; and part of that sensitivity is becoming a better judge of Beta character and avoiding it, or at least insofar as minimizing another man’s liabilities as a Beta to how his malaise could affect you.

I used to work with a very rich man who owned a few of the brands I became involved with in my career. While he was wealthy and had a certain knack for developing some very creative and profitable products, the guy was a deplorable chump with regards to his personal and romantic life. He was very much a White Knight Beta bordering on martyrdom when it came to his wives and the women in his life, who were all too happy to capitalize on this very obvious flaw. At one point he was attempting to launch a new product for which he needed some financial backing, but simply couldn’t get it from investors because they weren’t convinced their part of his venture wouldn’t end up as part of his next divorce settlement since he was planning his 3rd marriage.

His self-righteous ‘love conquers all’ White Knight idealism chaffed at the suggestion he would need a pre-nuptial affidavit for anyone to even chance being involved with him professionally, but his proven Beta mindset was a liability to his realizing his full potential. His story is an exceptional illustration of this Beta limitation dynamic, but there are far more common examples with everyday men I know, and you probably do too. That limitation may not even be recognizable until such a time that it becomes an impediment to some future opportunity that opens up to you.

From Letting Go of Invisible Friends:

I can’t begin to list the number of otherwise intelligent and ambitious men I’ve known who’ve drastically altered the course of their lives to follow their ONE. Men who’ve changed their majors in college, who’ve selected or switched universities, men who’ve applied for jobs in states they would never have considered, accepted jobs that are sub-standard to their ambitions or qualifications, men who’ve renounced former religions and men who’ve moved across the planet all in an effort to better accommodate an idealized woman with whom they’ve played pseudo-boyfriend with over the course of an LDR; only to find that she wasn’t the person they thought she was and were depressive over the gravity that their decisions played in their lives.

And again from Dream Killers:

It never ceases to amaze me when I talk with these young men in their teens and 20s and they try to impress me with their fierce independence in every other realm of their lives, yet they are the same guys who are so ready to limit that independence and ambition in exchange for dependable female intimacy. They’re far too eager to slap on the handcuffs of monogamy, rather than develop themselves into men of ambition and passion that women naturally want to be associated with.[...]

All of this is limited by a man’s attitude towards the opposite sex. Women are dream killers. Not because they have an agenda to be so, but because men will all too willingly sacrifice their ambitions for a steady supply of pussy and the responsibilities that women attach to this.

Social feminization and the Feminine Imperative both play an active role in curtailing a man’s potential, but more often than not it’s with a willing male participant. It’s important for red pill Men to remember that the Feminine Imperative is more concerned about women’s perpetuated long-term security than it will ever be about Men actualizing their true potential – even when it means his sacrificing that potential to sustain her security, and by doing so makes him progressively less able to sustain it.

Women who read my Appreciation essay and try to wrap their heads around my assertion that women will never appreciate the sacrifices men will readily make to ensure a feminine-primary reality never take this equation into account. They think I’m attacking the sincerity of their commitment by pointing out a less than flattering truth — hypergamy wants the security of knowing (or at least believing) that a woman is paired with the best man her SMV merits, but the fundamental problem is that her hypergamy conflicts with his capacity to develop himself to his best potential.

Turnkey Hypergamy

Hypergamy wants a pre-made Man. If you look at my now infamous comparative SMP curve, one thing you’ll notice is the peak SMV span between the sexes:

SMV_Curve

Good looking, professionally accomplished, socially matured, has Game, confidence, status, decisive and Just Gets It when it comes to women. Look at any of the commonalities of terms you see in any ‘would like to meet’ portion of a woman’s online dating profile and you’ll begin to understand that hypergamy wants optimization and it wants it now. Because a woman’s capacity to attract her hypergamous ideal decays with every passing year, her urgency demands immediacy with a Man embodying as close to that ideal as possible in the now.

Hypergamy takes a big risk in betting on a man’s future potential to become (or get close to being) her hypergamous ideal, so the preference leans toward seeking out the man who is more made than the next.

The problem with this scenario as you might guess is that women’s SMV depreciates as men’s appreciates — or at least should appreciate. As I outlined above, the same hypergamy that constantly tests and doubts the fitness of a man in seeking its security also limits his potential to consistently satisfy it.

Developing Potential

Just Four Guys (fast becoming my most lurked blog) had an interesting article on Quantifying Sexual Market Value:

Rollo Tomassi at Rational Male has a differing graph of SMV based on his personal estimation. While his evaluation of female SMV with age matches both these graphs quite closely, the same cannot be said of male SMV. However, the difference is that he is measuring potential SMV, rather than actual SMV, and he believes that older men who maintain a proper lifestyle can maximise their SMV to far higher levels than younger men can.

By age 36 the average man has reached his own relative SMV apex. It’s at this phase that his sexual / social / professional appeal has reached maturity. Assuming he’s maximized as much of his potential as possible, it’s at this stage that women’s hypergamous directives will find him the most acceptable for her long-term investment. He’s young enough to retain his physique in better part, but old enough to have attained social and professional maturity.

Thus, what we’re seeing here is the SMV that is actualized by the average male, whereas Rollo’s SMV is what a man could theoretically achieve with good inner game.

One misinterpretation I diligently tried to avoid in estimating men’s relative SMV is in using sex (or the capacity to attract potential sex partners) as an exclusive metric for evaluating men’s overall SMV. Notch count in and of itself is not the benchmark for SMV, rather it is a Man’s actualization of his real potential (of which notch count is an aspect) that determines his SMV. Hypergamy wants you to fulfill your best potential (the better to filter you), but it doesn’t want to assume the risk of protracted personal investment that your fulfilled potential will eventually place your SMV so far above her own that you leave her and her investment is lost.

This then is the conflict between male potential and feminine hypergamy. I detailed this in The Threat:

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

On the blue pill reddit forum I recently read a criticism of my SMP graph, dismissing it by stating that an early to mid-thirties guy was far more likely to look like your average schlub, with an average low wage job than some mature, successful guy, who’s kept himself in shape and maintains some GQ lifestyle. I have to say I’m inclined to agree; most men, average men are men who haven’t realized the potential they could. Whether this lack is due to motivation, the limitations of a feminine socialization, or an inability to come to terms with their blue-pill reality, they never actualize the potential that would make them higher SMV men. The blue pill redditors can’t see that it’s Men’s potential that sets them apart on the SMV scale.

I’ll finish this with a quote from New Yorker in last week’s comment thread:

I think that the primary lesson of Game is that one needs to have a life and purpose that makes a man happy and determined to wake up every morning. Once a man takes control of his life, then a woman becomes an interchangeable part of it like anything else. The road to that state only lies through relentless self-improvement and the shedding of prior limitations. Otherwise, the same brutal cycle repeats itself.


127 responses to “The Curse of Potential

  • LiveFearless

    the preference leans toward seeking out the man who is more made than the next and relentless self-improvement
    Exactly!

  • piercedhead

    Life is full of opportunities. What is a car wreck to you, is a parcel full of resellable parts to another.

    Men who hamstring their own futures because of unrealistic and romaticised views of the ugly sex are not that important as things go. They’re just wasters of opportunity on the great carousel of missed chances.

    Once a man loses the illusion that females have any connection with a good and satisfying life, he can also look calmly at the wasteland created by those who insist otherwise.

  • donalgraeme

    I have to say I’m inclined to agree; most men, average men are men who haven’t realized the potential they could. Whether this lack is due to motivation, the limitations of a feminine socialization, or an inability to come to terms with their blue-pill reality, they never actualize the potential that would make them higher SMV men. The blue pill redditors can’t see that it’s Men’s potential that sets them apart on the SMV scale.

    Exactly. Your SMV charts show the ideal state of male and female SMV, not actual state. A man who stays a Beta schlub and a woman lets herself become fat at a young age will never rank very high in SMV, because they have limited their potential. Mind you, there is something of a ceiling for most people that they can’t push past. However, this ceiling is far more fixed for women than it is for men. Female SMV is based purely on physical features, most of which are outside her control save through surgery. Male SMV, however, is based on their LAMPS attributes, which provide far more flexibility and capacity for growth, due to factors which are both controllable by a man and purely fortuitous. A man can dramatically boost his SMV just by improving his Masculine Power attribute, which requires in most cases just willpower and time. Or he can get lucky and win the lottery, shooting his Money value really high instead. Truth is, men have far more potential for self-improvement in the SMP/MMP than women can ever have.

  • Sim

    Rollo,

    there any news on your upcoming book yet?

  • nick42983Nick

    Great post, I hadn’t thought of the fact that it’s in a woman’s interest not to allow a man’s SMV to continue growing far beyond the point where she “caught” him. It’s interesting to also reflect on your graph, since it is an idealization, when the reality is that men sacrifice their potential up and down the board by marrying young or marrying a woman that’s well past her prime. I’ve come to realize recently that women are largely interchangeable. The end game for most is still commitment and monogamy that’ll handicap further personal growth. The desire to find a hot, young girl to marry when you are at or past your SMV peak seems more and more like a sophisticated variation of finding “the One”. I guess this is just the reality of how the sexes relate. It also explains why so many successful men aren’t satisfied to stay with one girl, since it soon becomes a roadblock to their continued success.

    I still want to start a family some day, but the criteria I’d choose for a partner would be a woman that best supports my goals and ambitions. It’s too easy to settle for dependable, female intimacy that may end up being more of a liability than an asset.

  • redpillsetmefree

    Once a man loses the illusion that females have any connection with a good and satisfying life, he can also look calmly at the wasteland created by those who insist otherwise.

    This, in buckets. I in fact cannot think of one romantic relationship where the woman helped the man reach his potential.
    Or, didn’t charge him a take-care-of-my-bastard-kids-and-all-my-debts fee for it.

  • Stingray

    I think that the primary lesson of Game is that one needs to have a life and purpose that makes a man happy and determined to wake up every morning. Once a man takes control of his life, then a woman becomes an interchangeable part of it like anything else.

    This is very relevant:

    http://laidnyc.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/man-on-a-mission/

  • Tampa

    It’s funny you right this column and note that women want a “Made” man now instead of buying low and hoping he builds himself into her hypergamey ideal. Because i was talking to my mom of all people about this the other night.

    I was saying…”You know back in the day, a girl would find a smart succesful guy in college and bet on him to become something of a man. It was almost like race horses. You see a young one and you buy it and hope he wins the triple crown….. And men got something out of this transaction too. They got a supportive loving wife to who would hopefully push them forward to bigger and better things. But now adays all you have is women screwing around in their 20’s and then trying to land the high vauled guy in their 30’s. It doesn’t work like that. YOu don’t get to buy the stock at the top of it’s value, you have to ride it from the low value to the high value.”

  • The Association of Chronos

    So basically what this article is saying in a more Video game like associated term that I came up with is:

    “Untangled leashes”

    Basically, a Man is leashed to this world. Whether it be by his job, belief, morals, age etc. We as men are chained down to this world. There is no escaping to Mars or The Moon to live. We are here. Leashed an chained up. Same as women but, being just because they are women they have more freedom in a lot of certain areas. Especially during youth and if they’re SMV has hit the Genetic Lottery. Yet, they’re age is still always they’re leash as well. Maybe the only one in a sense

    So, she is basically shopping around when it comes to her Love (Security) like in a store. She sees all these men chained up to this world, yet still are striving towards something. A direction. At less for some of them. Other men are still tangled up and haven’t figured out how to unwrap themselves an moves towards a direction with they’re ideas an strengths. This man is Cleary a risk to they’re future so this man gets no attention……. Unless they other lines are filled up by other women at a chance to gain the leash of the man that is moving towards something. The tangled up man becomes “Just for now” situation until a line is cleared up…

    As for the other lucky women who get a bump in line due to certain traits they have gained, they get a chance at gaining the leash. Once they do, they allow the man to reach as high as………. She allows it. They know good an well if he reaches pass the limits of the leash he may wonder off too far an become harder to hold down. So a PULL and YANK is always in order. . . . Yet, the paradox of this is the more he allows this, another man has passed him. She gets bored, drops the leash after holding him back, and then moves in line to restart again. But only if youth and time is on her side. Otherwise, she simply settles. As does the man. Despite the fact if he had just pull more towards a direction…..

    He would of found the keys….

    Somewhat of a BDSM type comment and corny ending from me but, nonetheless another great article Rollo. I’m starting to see that the word “Love” is simply a thesaurus word for the main one being “Security”. Everything they are doing is for they’re security. Plain and simple. it makes me wonder this sometimes as well:

    Who really then has the right understanding of “Love” in a world in which people are hurdling towards the same ultimate ending of Death….. Men or Women?

  • M3

    Here’s a man who finally actualized his potential and might finally be aware of his own value (much to Miley’s chagrin)

    http://coed.com/2013/09/18/eiza-gonzalez-sexiest-pics/#photo=1

  • Jeremy

    Another great post.

    My only problem with this perspective is its applicability to a more traditional scenario where women actually do capitalize on their youth and beauty by marrying very young, to younger men. In such a scenario, the women are gambling to a much greater degree, marrying men decades before they’ve had time to build up to their potential.

    If, hypothetically, the vast majority of women in America started locking in good mates in their very early 20s, would hypergamy simply flare up less and allow the men to reach greater potential? Is there a natural suppression to hypergamy when women marry younger?

    Women who read my Appreciation essay and try to wrap their heads around my assertion that women will never appreciate the sacrifices men will readily make to ensure a feminine-primary reality never take this equation into account. They think I’m attacking the sincerity of their commitment by pointing out a less than flattering truth — hypergamy wants the security of knowing (or at least believing) that a woman is paired with the best man her SMV merits, but the fundamental problem is that her hypergamy conflicts with his capacity to develop himself to his best potential.

    It’s hard to argue against this ^^. So am I left to believe that in my hypothetical example, either some men have always run marriage game well enough to realize greater potential for themselves (and their marriage/family), or there’s some affect on women who marry young, or some combination of the two.

    I tend to think there’s actually an (as-yet unquantified in the red-pill universe) affect on women when they marry younger. I think that without years of fending for themselves and being lonely they see less benefit in jumping ship for the perceived mega yacht nearby. Their self-defense mechanism remains unused and hence they see the man they are committed to as more valuable. I would term this something like husband-goggles, but that sounds kind of silly.

  • Jeremy

    @redpillsetmefree

    …I in fact cannot think of one romantic relationship where the woman helped the man reach his potential.

    Hollywood fiction has stories that match this. The Netflix series “House of Cards” (American version) has exactly this scenario between the characters played by Kevin Spacey and Robin Wright.

  • Vektor

    If a woman places limitless expectations on her man, yet directly sabotages his efforts to meet her expectations, that sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Unless he can overcome the drags she places on his achievement, forever, then it is inevitable that someday Atlas will shrug and she will hate him for shrugging.

    What are the alternatives?
    – Avoid marriage.
    – The wife must temper her expectations and reach a place of contentment/satisfaction. Unfortunately, modern women are entitled and selfish. Too much power and too little consequences corrupts decision making.

    Any expectations he holds her to are usually met with indignation and shaming language like: ‘you should love me for who I am…’, despite the fact that she likely nags and criticizes him on a regular basis.

  • Jeremy

    @donalgraeme

    Exactly. Your SMV charts show the ideal state of male and female SMV, not actual state.

    I believe in Rollo’s original post with that graph, he describes those plots as “normalized” potential to the individual. This means that the numbers on the plot when referenced to any individual just represents their maximum possible for that age.

    You can be a super wealthy 15-year-old boy with fantastic pedigree, but you’ll still be more valuable in your 30s than at 15, and your value with age will likely still follow that plot.

    Likewise, you can be a fantastically feminine, in-shape and curvy 40-year-old woman, but you were still likely more valuable in the SM at 18-23, even if you were fatter then, and it will always be thus.

  • BA

    Thanks for the article Rollo. It provides me with a new insight into my ex-wife’s behavior.

    I continued to improve myself, and after a certain point of improvement, she became a hindrance & discouraged any further self-improvement. Up to about 30, she was all for me going to school & doing the best I could in the military. After my second tour (30ish), I was looking at a challenging but rewarding path in the military. She actively campaigned against it. Had I done so, my SMV would have shot up, while hers declined due to age. I took the dull but stable path that kept me yoked to her for many more years.

    Similar experiences happened when starting my own businesses or working for a start-up. I would have thought the income potential and sheer joy that they brought me would bring her support. But no. I see that doing so would have raised my SMV too much & that was unacceptable to her. It would put me ‘out of her league’ and at risk of leaving.

    Which I did anyway.

  • Stingray

    I would term this something like husband-goggles, but that sounds kind of silly.

    You would term it as simply hypergamy satisfied. When hypergamy is satisfied, she has the yacht already and while there might be a bigger one nearby, beyond noticing the yacht, she doesn’t care.

    would hypergamy simply flare up less and allow the men to reach greater potential?

    Yes, but the point of a wife isn’t for her to allow her man to reach greater potential, it is to help him reach his highest level. It is easier for a wife to do this when her hypergamy is satiated.

  • biff

    A good read. A lot to unpack in this post, as usual.

    First, it is definitely fair to say that the women’s SMV curve is a lot simpler than the men’s curve, because women generally proceed along the same path as they age. On the other hand, I think it could be very tough to rank women between say 18 and 24–on the one hand, 18 has more years left before the wall, while, on the other hand, 24 is still peak nubility and could potentially be more ready for a relationship (if one were so inclined)… maybe for pure sexiness (shagability) some might go with 18 (or even 16 or 17–though even though it was common in history for women this age to be married, such kind of talk is now verboten).

    For men, it’s clearly trickier. Your curve is set up for successful guys (as has been observed). There are definitely guys who would peak at say 18 or 22 (be banging hotties in high school and/or college with semi-alpha cred), but would go on to suck at life, pave roads and get ugly wives later on (seen it quite a bit with my facebook friends). However, I imagine most of your readership is relatively successful (with higher IQ)–we are probably, therefore, more likely to follow the curve, but a big portion of the lughead high school studs definitely wouldn’t.

    Second issue I have with the men’s chart is that it depends on what women a man wants to attract. Say a relatively successful 40 year old may have a natural range where he could get 25-45, but 18-25 will be tougher. A 30 year old (or even 25 year old) might have a better shot with a 20 year old. He’s probably less attractive than the 40 year old with the 30+ crowd of women, but maybe he doesn’t care. In the U.S., there is also some stigma surrounding an age gap. Outside of the U.S., I actually think this chart is more realistic, because there is less stigma and women care more about a guy’s successfulness. Still, it’s not super easy for someone at the top of the men’s chart (mid 30s) to get with someone like college age. Mid 20’s is much more doable.

    Also, outside the U.S., seen many women mid 20s take a shag buddy who is mid 20s, but doesn’t qualify as husband material (30+ more successful guy would be)–don’t know whether to feel sorry for these young guys who can shag, but not marry, such hotties (the alpha cast offs, if you will), but I guess I won’t lose any sleep over there plight. In any case, I dont have specific suggestions to change the chart, but thought I’d share some thoughts.

  • Tin Man

    It would also be interesting to see your point of view on the 35 to 50 year old woman, that after marrying, staying home to raise kids, now finds herself not quite at the empty next stage, but kids need her less and less each day – and she is trying to fill a void. The husband has provided for her, but in typical style, has probably less interest in her also.

    What do they do? Fill their feelings of emptiness with trolling FaceBook/Tumblr/Twitter for validation? Maybe get some interest from “men”? Possibly look to upgrade or side-grade to a newer model, or just add a bit of excitement to their lives?

    Just because you find that woman, you commit to her, she bears your children, you support her – doesn’t mean that life is full of rainbows and unicorns.

  • Donttreadonmatt

    I have experienced this in my own marriage. I was once an aspiring novelist, and early in our relationship and marriage my wife was supportive and encouraging. That support slowly faded and transformed into jealousy. “I need you to pay more attention to me and less to your writing.” Never mind that the fucking novel I was trying to get published was dedicated to her – it was “what have you done for me lately.” Instant gratification, with no patience for the trial and error and struggle of real improvement and accomplishment. Like you said, Rollo: I want it NOW.

    In gaining red pill wisdom, I think there might be another way of viewing the reasons behind women limiting the potential of their mates: maybe they do it not out of fear of losing them, but because men are truly better than women at most things, and this fact just crushes their fragile egos. It is why you have competitive marriages these days. It’s like the wife does not want the husband to get too full of himself when he accomplishes new things, so she does not express appreciation, and sometimes will openly tear him down, leaving the husband frustrated and confused and thinking “Why the fuck am I trying so hard to do these cool things if it doesn’t make her happy?” So the husband throws up his hands and quits and doesn’t reach his potential because his wife is either apathetic towards his accomplishments and improvements, or tears him down. All because she doesn’t like watching her husband improve when she is not improving, and may in fact be declining, thus destroying her selfish ego. So she needs to take him down a peg.

    The red pill allows the man to realize that he has to make himself happy first, and to never expect to be able to make a woman happy except for a limited, temporary basis. So he must focus on himself and what he wants to achieve in his life. This truth frees a man to reach his true potential.

    Great article, Rollo.

  • Donttreadonmatt

    @tin man

    Bingo. Instead of appreciating and cherishing all you’ve accomplished together, it is the old standby “What have you done for me lately?”

  • The Latin Buddha

    Timely post. This is the theory and what I encountered last weekend illustrates the practical application.

    Last Saturday, I went to see the Mayweather fight with a buddy of mine at a bar. A guy next to me started commenting on how Canelo was being “outtechniqued” by Mayweather. I agreed and started small talking. He was telling me that he had just been transferred to Chicago to be a store manager at a Target. He said he loved the city and the diversity. Once one of the rounds was over, a gorgeous blond model with delicious breasts walked across the ring with the score. I said: “Man… she can get it.” He replied: “Yeah… I’d bust a nut inside of her.”

    Mind you, I know this is simply a dude’s way of saying she’s hot. He was implying not wearing a condom. But the more I found out about this guy, the more I realized how his mindset was preventing him from reaching his full potential. As we kept chatting, I found out that he had a young daughter that he also moved to Chicago for. He told me he had moved to Chicago to realize his dream of being a music producer. And what really blows is that… he is only 25 years old.

    As the night progressed, my buddy and I were listening to this kid question whether he should dump his current long-distance relationship. At this point, my buddy and I sat him down and were like: “Dude! You know how many girls you can date here in Chicago? Next this chic!” We kept talking to him about how long distance relationships are not real relationships (per Rollo’s post here http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/20/letting-go-of-invisible-friend/) and that he had a world of opportunities ahead of him.

    I definitely think there is hope for him. Even with a young daughter and a 9-5 as a store manager at Target. There is nothing wrong with either really. Except that at 25, he hasn’t realized nor has caught a glimpse of his own potential and SMV.

    I think he might be open to being unplugged so obviously, I’ll be pointing him to RM. And also suggest to him to wear a rubber. Always. Even if it’s a hot ass blonde from Vegas so he doesn’t keep creating “Professional Mothers” http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/06/professional-mothers/)

  • Tin Man

    My earlier comment is directly related to my own experiences – but here’s the rub – I don’t blame my (x)wife. Sure I got angry with the situation and how it all went down, but once I started reading and gaining more knowledge, I realized what had happened was that I quit being true to myself. I gave up on my “mission” – my wants and desires.

    During the last couple years of our marriage, she asked this question over a thousand times “What do you want?” — and I never had a real answer. I was so conditioned to not want anything for myself, that the first answer my mind would give me was “I want you and the kids to be happy and be able to provide you the things you want” — in retrospect, that’s how I felt then, but how sad is it that the MAN doesn’t have a real mission in life? I wasn’t trying to avoid the questions (which is what she thought), it was just that I was always in third or fourth place, and running like hell just to stay there.

    I answered the question once, towards the end of our marriage with this “You want to know what I want? I want you to quit asking me what I want. I want to stop having this conversation.” Which wasn’t an answer as much as just a way to avoid answering – primarily because the potential answer scared me.

    Now that I’m back on my own, I have a real list of my wants, what I still want to accomplish in this life, how I want to live, the knowledge I want to impart to my kids. I have felt stronger over the past year than I had the previous 10 years. A few months back, I was dealing with feeling of regret, about how I missed opportunities, how I could changed things in my marriage, how I “wasted” years of my life. Luckily, I got past that and have since chalked it up to a learning experience.

    What I can tell you is this…when you are in that situation, I mean living the dark days of a failing relationship, and you can’t answer the question “what do YOU want?” — that is where you need to start. Quit worrying about HER or your kids and get back to the central thing(s) that make you who you are — your goals, your dreams, your body, your spirit, your mission. If you loose those things in the pursuit of a “happy marriage and family” then you won’t have either. And what you will be left with is the task of rebuilding the shattered remains.

    As with all things in life. It’s easier to maintain than to rebuild. Stay strong gentlemen.

  • lordofthealphas

    Great article. As alphas we take this shit for granted, but many a beta gets derailed by steady pussy. It’s also a great way to tell real alphas from faux alphas like Minter. See how willing they are to settle for dream killers.

  • biff

    Alright, I have a completely separate comment from my previous one. I sense a lot of hostility toward beta-ness in this post and I’m not sure if it’s entirely warranted. Take away the feminazi type guys who are terrible to interract with and those who are obsessed with white knighting. There are lots of beta guys who are actually great to interract with (and many natural alphas who aren’t because they really are a-holes). There are tons of really successful guys who could be characterized as beta with respect to women. A smart beta realizes he gets value from being a provider and won’t normally destroy his career potential for his wife (warren buffet, for example, is hopelessly beta). For many betas, their beta mindset enables them to work very hard for their family and it often benefits society on a macro level (even if it might benefit the beta guy less–for example if he gets frivorced). Also, red pill is not synomymous with alpha. Red pill guys will not necessarily become alpha in all or most of their interactions. A little knowledge and a little behavior modification with women who might be of some interest sexually goes a LONG way. In other contexts, alpha behavior may be less useful and sometimes counterproductive–for instance, in the context of a confrontation with random thugs who mean nothing. This is just to say that I wouldn’t make an all out assault on “Beta mindset”, “Beta frame” and “Beta character”–what I think you mean here is a certain blue pill beta type who goes to extremes and allows his desire for “the one” to mess up his life. I think marriage is dangerous for every guy.. including red pill types. I haven’t seen that strong alphas (think Steve Mcqueen) tend to have much better track records at marriage, by the way.

    On a related noted, I very much enjoyed the epic face-off with SSM. It was very educational. When you say “a man must continue to maintain that love through performing and meriting it” part of what this means is that a man can never completely let his “alpha guard” down. Most red pill men would like to sometimes. When we learn that the alpha game never ends, it’s incredibly disheartening. Of course we are now disgusted by groveling beta behavior and effeminate guys after becoming red pill. However, most (or many) of us would still like to have real intimacy with the woman we love. We’d like to be able to tell her everything about us, to be open and honest and vulnerable. In other words, we would like to be able to show more of a beta side to ourselves. It would be more comfortable and natural. However, we’ve seen that this doesn’t work well in practice. For women, they innately know that they need to stay as beautiful as possible. For men, the need to preserve their alphaness is much less intuitive–this is where the shock comes in–that the girl you thought was your “soulmate” would stop loving you, and very possibly leave you, if you lost the ability to provide and lead (this might also be a shock for many women to realize about themselves). Men and women both love conditionally, but in different ways (though men can often keep up a kind of love even when beauty is mostly gone, while a woman will have trouble concealing her natural disgust for extreme betaness). We would agree that men are generally more loyal, in that they don’t automatically ditch their wives when they hit the wall at 45 for a newer model. However, some guys do, so it’s not a completely one way street.

  • Tin Man

    @Donttreadonmatt

    “Bingo. Instead of appreciating and cherishing all you’ve accomplished together, it is the old standby “What have you done for me lately?”

    HaHa…when I read that, I thought it’s like living with the biggest prick of a Sales Manager 24×7 – they guy that pushes, not to make you better and succeed, but the one that is only looking at how you are (or aren’t) making him money.

  • s096

    rollo…you the same dude from TBL? shoot me an email (fig you can get it via the WP dashboard)

    [TBL?]

  • Donttreadonmatt

    @Tin Man

    When reading your comment about being asked “What do you want?” I thought “I want to live out in the woods in a log cabin” and then thought about the bar scene from Se7en:

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=snxgxpVyt6Y&feature=c4-feed-u

    Morgan Freeman is the red pill man, Brad Pitt is the blue pill man. And we all know how horribly it ended for Pitt’s character.

  • Happy Madison

    Way off topic….has anyone had the chance to read this article…interesting that it’s in Business Insider…don’t really know what to think of it and it will take much longer to dig through the comments…

    Inside Red Pill, The Weird New Cult For Men Who Don’t Understand Women by DYLAN LOVE SEP. 15, 2013, 8:06 AM

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-red-pill-reddit-2013-8#ixzz2fMuZmJmO

  • Jeremy

    @Stingray

    You would term it as simply hypergamy satisfied. When hypergamy is satisfied, she has the yacht already and while there might be a bigger one nearby, beyond noticing the yacht, she doesn’t care.

    By what mechanism is hypergamy satisfied through a woman marrying while young (and valuable) to a younger (likely lower-value) man? I can’t see it.

  • Jeremy

    @Tin Man

    It would also be interesting to see your point of view on the 35 to 50 year old woman, that after marrying, staying home to raise kids, now finds herself not quite at the empty next stage, but kids need her less and less each day – and she is trying to fill a void.

    Didn’t your mother ever beg you for grandkids?

    That’s what older mothers do, they beg for grandchildren ASAP.

  • BlackPoisonSoul

    “Women are dream killers.”

    Tolstoy, War and Peace: “Never marry…”

  • Water Cannon Boy

    @Jeremy

    Hypergamy would probably never truly be satisfied, but picture a woman at a college known for a large wealthy population with a boyfriend/soon to be fiance with family ties to be in line to a high paying job. Or with a major leading to a high paying job.
    There could still be the “if things don’t go as planned…” gremlin that could show up on her shoulder, but she’d hear a louder cha-ching that would drown out the usual thoughts of waiting to see until she’s in her 30s.
    I got into a conversation with a woman one time who has a son that’s an oil and gas major at TCU. She talked about how he seems to go through girl friends like red party cups, some that she really liked and wish he’d stay with longer. I thought better that he did since there’s a gated community not too far from campus that’s known to have lots of people in the oil and gas industry living there. I have no doubt there were several of his exes that wouldn’t have taken too much convincing to becoming engaged while being a senior in college.

  • YaReally

    One dude I was helping swallow the red pill and start learning game, told me he wish he wasn’t in med school…he didn’t like it or want to do it, but he thought being a doctor would mean he would be able to find a wife and surprise surprise he hasn’t been laid or been on dates in years despite working to become a doctor.

    When he started realizing he could just go out and talk to girls, but he was too busy studying in school to go out enough to get good, he was devastated. He realized he had listened to social conditioning and willingly put himself in a non-ideal lifestyle he doesn’t enjoy for rewards that weren’t guaranteed (and were mostly a bullshit fairy tale lie), and that that lifestyle he entered actually prevented him from taking the action that WOULD get him the reward he was hoping for.

    Felt bad for the dude, but I see that kind of thing all the time.

    Saw this the other day (skip the first 1/3rd):

    Tom Leykis in an interview with a chick where she’s all “a woman supports her man and helps build his career so she deserves alimony” and he’s like “DOES she? Because the women I’ve known have hampered my career, not helped it. Complaining that I work too much or complaining that I have to travel and be away for business meetings…they’ve done the exact opposite of helping.”

    In this one he talks about not weighing your life down with a woman and changing your life plans etc when you’re in your 20s because you’ll hit your peak later, the way Rollo is describing here.

    Dude speaks some common-fucking-sense lol

  • walawala

    I think there is a tendency of guys who aren’t game aware..or even those who are to morph towards the path of least resistance: succumbing to femi-centric pressures to be a “nice guy”.

    I’m struggling with this all the time. Am now grappling with whether to reply to shit-tests, aloofness, distancing, bitchiness or how to keep my cool and focus on my own stuff.

    I think one “aha” moment was talking to a family member who separated from his wife. He claims he was “abused” for 15 years.

    He is positioning himself as some sort of victim and wallowing in this.

    He claims: “I’m feeling lost”

    He’s spending the weekend with a female “Friend” that includes driving out to her city for 4 hours and spending a Saturday night having dinner with her parents.

    When I tell him I have never met the parents of the last 3 girls I went out with his reply illustrates the mindset of the beta male: “That explains a lot…”

    The pressures to do your own thing, to stop being self-effacing, to stop apologizing for nothing etc etc is what puts you into a feeling of powerlessness that my relative now claims through his “I’m feeling lost”.

  • New Yorker

    My wife’s favorite lines were “you work too much” and “most people work less and spend more time with their families”. Of course, when I started my own company, she flipped out and started demanding “security”. Coming home every day was like going into a war zone. The woman had anointed herself the protector of “family stability” and felt that she was within her right to help determine what I did with my career. After this persisted for 2 years I decided that I had to decide whether my life would be defined by a partnership with someone who obviously did not give a fuck about me in any way. At that point, the decision became very simple and waking up the next day was one of the most blissful days of my life.

    After observing all of my friends, my only conclusion is that their wives see them simply as facilitators of their ambitions. Nothing more. As long as their goals match, that is not a problem (and often they don’t) . I just hope that they don’t wind up sacrificing themselves in an attempt to placate the anxieties of their wives.

  • Socialkenny

    I’ve suffered from this damn near my entire life. I had to potential to excel in quite a few areas, but the Beta-male mindset of not wanting to step out to the plate fucked me over in a grand way. And the guys who are out there with the Alpha’s persona are usually the one without potential.

  • Tin Man

    @New Yorker

    In my marriage, I got the whole yo-yo thing…first it was “”you’re gone too much…” then I stop traveling so much, do more work from home and it was “are you sure you don’t need to be there more, you don’t want to mess things up…”. And the one I loved was “you took the safe route, why don’t you take more chances…” then when a chance is taken “…don’t you think you’re taking a big risk…”. And on last one “…I just want me and kids to be as important to you as your job…”

    Which just illustrates the point…be true to yourself, have your own mission, allow input, but make your own decisions – and never, ever second guess yourself – let those people (men and women) to be the Monday morning quarterbacks. Win or Lose – make the decisions and take the responsibility.

    Now let’s all go out there and make a difference!! Forward Gentlemen.

  • Chris Carleton

    The articles on this blog are generally well-written, and surprisingly elicit some equally well crafted comments and replies, but I’m very curious to know a couple of fundamentally important things: 1) who is Rollo—the “About” page is practically useless; and 2) where’s the data? I’m a scientist and I have a keen interest in western cultural conceptions of relationships; not because that’s what I study, since it’s not, but because I’m in an ‘LTR’ so I have a vested interest. Part of being a good scientist is a little thing called ‘source criticism’ and without any kind of bibliography that points to large studies or surveys, or any idea about the author’s credentials, it’s hard to evaluate the material here beyond noting that it’s engaging and provocative—reminiscent of some econometric evolutionary studies I’ve read regarding human mate selection and assortative mating. I’m particularly interested to know where the information for the SMP/V curves come from, or if they are just intended to visually illustrate a point derived from the author’s personal and vicarious experience of the world around him. I suspect it may not be a bad approximation to the functions he’s attempting to describe and I could add a few interesting supporting data that I’ve read elsewhere. That said, if it is based on some data, then I would really like to see it.

  • andrew

    The flip side of ’30 year old schlub’ is how there are plenty of fat, frumpy 18-24 year old girls wasting their potential. It takes work for anyone to have a high smv, a fact girls often ignore.

  • YaReally

    @Chris Carleton

    1) who is Rollo

    Totally irrelevant lol What he says and how well it gels with reality and the experience of other men is important, not who he is.

    It doesn’t matter if the person telling you 2 + 2 = 4 is a crackhead on the street or the CEO of a billion dollar business, it doesn’t change what 2 + 2 equals.

    2) where’s the data?

    In the field. Go out and see it for yourself like the rest of us. ;)

    But since you won’t, here are over 19,000 Field Reports that each contain from 1-10+ interactions (but usually around 2-5):

    http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?action=prevnext&offset=636&grp=alt.seduction.fast.fieldreports

    That’s just *ONE* PUA forum, that isn’t even active anymore lol

    Feel free to read all those Field Reports and draw your own conclusions. That’s what we did…on TOP of also going out and testing everything for ourselves. :) When you finish reading those, I can link you to thousands of more current Field Reports to also read for patterns and consistent trends. There are even forums dedicated to sharing experiences in long-term relationships, not just on the initial pickup.

  • Underdog

    There were data gathered from OkCupid that pretty much matched Rollo’s SMV chart.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    The scientist might find data in his own life.

    I’m a water cannon marksman.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    Andrew-“The flip side of ’30 year old schlub’ is how there are plenty of fat, frumpy 18-24 year old girls wasting their potential. It takes work for anyone to have a high smv, a fact girls often ignore.”

    I don’t think they ignore it. I think the effort is what they can’t stand. The effort to change what you think and should like seems that they find much easier. Which is funny because the former is actually easier and more productive. And would end up being more satisfying to them.
    The latest I’ve been hearing is “hey, I’m built just like the majority of women in the world…”

  • Chris Carleton

    I’m not sure which fallacy to invoke first on your first argument. But, I’ll try to briefly show you what I mean. In order to buy your pitch the way you phrased it regarding the validity of knowledge irrespective of its source, the knowledge has to be 1) self-evident, 2) already established, or readily and objectively verifiable. As far as I can tell, the information in this [opinion] piece qualifies as none of those. So, it’s pretty inappropriate to liken it to mathematics, which does have all of those traits.

    As far as the data are concerned (the ‘field reports), it might be an interesting dataset but working with such data is like walking through a minefield – any anthropologist would tell you that. The information there is biased, the attitudes and responses conditioned or even prompted, and even a basic issue like avoiding over-representation by prolific (anonymous) authors would be daunting. It might make a good study if someone could data mine it and had enough experience to deal with interpreting those kinds of data.

    Anyhow, it’s not as straightforward as you think and no rational person could accept the rhetoric wihout asking some questions – as I’ve done. I noticed another reply that seemed to be pointing to a dataset for the SMP curves, which was the specific data I was looking for. I’ll get back to everyone once I’ve looked since I think it’s a fascinating topic.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Chris, I’m a connector of dots.

    If you feel that one dot doesn’t connect to another as I’ve explained, please, tell me, tell the manosphere, why you don’t think so. That’s what open discourse and a marketplace of ideas is about. Heartiste is more of a statistician than I am, and every time he posts a scientific study reinforcing his perspective there’s a gallery of critics ready to tell him his study is flawed. It’s the nature of the subject. If you take issue or have a countervailing take on something, please, bring it up here.

    You’re a credentialist. If I tell you I have a doctorate in behaviorism, personality studies and evolutionary psychology, you’ll only attack the validity of those fields as definitive ‘hard sciences’ insofar as they agree with your ego investments in your feminine conditioning. You can ask for numbers and I or others can give them to you depending on your topic, but you have to want to see dots connected first.

    I’ve had dozens of guys before you ask, “show me the science, show me the numbers?” but the manosphere is more about a consortium of shared experiences and men connecting dots on a global scale. Sure, there are studies that back up the ideas expressed here and on other blogs, but they wont convince you let go of the ego investments about women, gender relations and your feminized conditioning that let you sleep better at night.

    Read more of my essays. If you think they’re fucked up convoluted hearsay nonsense feel free to tell me so. Feel free to post your counter studies and arguments as well, but also be prepared to read the rebuttal of a world-wide forum of men who will call you to the carpet with their own studies, experiences and conclusions. Give me and them the respect you’d expect for your own assertions.

  • Chris Carleton

    Hi Rollo,

    Thanks for the reply. I hope people aren’t reading my comments as “disrespectful”, but in no legitimate knowledge generation process can “assertions” be taken for anything more than that. Without objective evidence, it’s all pretty worthless—well, perhaps not worthless. They incite discussion and can be a nexus for generating hypotheses, but I try to avoid them myself. That said, hypotheses must be tested. Anyhow, I digress.

    I wouldn’t consider myself to be a “credentialist”. There are two points to make here: 1) in the absence of hard data and analysis or references to the same we’re left with credentials to evaluate the likelihood of a thesis because relying on subjective connections to personal experience promotes confirmatory biases and 2) the only way to really understand and evaluate a study (even a data-driven quantitative study) is to look at the source. We have to be able to understand the context within which an argument is formed, that includes not only the historical and cultural contexts but also the person making the argument. We have to evaluate the author’s biases, look at their history, and try to understand their perspective. These elements of authorship have a significant effect on what questions are asked and how they are answered. It’s all just part of being a discerning audience.

    My interest in reading these, and now other, articles about… well I’m not exactly sure what term applies—I don’t think it’s masculinism, but I’m sure someone out there who is better read than I am has already coined something appropriate—is purely academic. Personally, I’m happy with my life and have never had much trouble with women. I’m interested in the evolution of mate choice and sexual selection. I also really like economics and mathematical models of human behaviour. So, participating in “… a consortium of shared experiences and men connecting dots on a global scale” is outside my scope of interest.

    Anyhow, I’m not looking to pick fights, but I can’t hold my tongue when I read fallacious arguments—not referring to your article here—and I only wanted to know what your sources were, including any pertinent data, because I found the article interesting and wanted to pursue it. Rather than take offence, I would hope you would invite additional interest and be happy to share data rather than rhetoric. It could be a very important issue that’s been raised in the “manosphere” and I think some of it is even mainstream (I’ve heard other scholars talk about the affect of feminism on men recently). Whatever anyone takes from my comments, know that I’m thoroughly enjoying the reading.

  • Jeremy

    @Chris

    Experimentally testable assertions are never worthless. I invite you to spend a night practicing game in a social situation and then come back here and tell me that what is asserted here is not at the very least testable, if not plausibly true.

    There is no known shareable method, save a video-camera watching your every move that is invisible, of collecting such data. Fortunately for the curious, there’s numerous social situations in which to practice game and test the assertions. Moreover, no social scientist in the world would ever receive a lick of funding for attempting to demonstrate the effectiveness of the tenets of game, so complaining about the lack of credentials or hard data is about as useful as demanding that a caveman demonstrate the superiority of the wheel.

  • eon

    @ Chris Carleton

    Chris wrote: “I’m not sure which fallacy to invoke first on your first argument. But, I’ll try to briefly show you what I mean. In order to buy your pitch the way you phrased it regarding the validity of knowledge irrespective of its source, the knowledge has to be 1) self-evident, 2) already established, or readily and objectively verifiable.”

    What Rollo said, and furthermore:

    The information presented here, and on other preeminent manosphere blogs, such as (in addition to Heartiste, mentioned above) no-maam.blogspot.com, and dalrock.wordpress.com (which contains more links of the kind that interest you), are precisely “1) self-evident, 2) already established, or readily and objectively verifiable”.

    This is because these blogs are not (and do not claim to be) the terrain, but rather they are the maps that explain, in context, and in retrospect but with predictive power, what men have been experiencing for the past 50 years (and for which data is available in great quantity and detail), and for most of recorded history (see the no-maam link, above).

    Peer reviewed studies (rigorous analyses of proper but small population samples) that you requested are not always (or often) available, because feminist academia refuses to consider such topics.

    Nevertheless, “assertions” can indeed constitute proof (a type of “preponderance of the evidence”), when consistent experiences across most of the population (reported as personal narratives, “news” presentations with a contrary agenda, court documents, and so on) are explained directly and completely by the models in question.

    You are not the first person here to “not want to see the dots connected”, and so your arguments become visible as repetitive, disingenuous and irrelevant.

  • eon

    The links did not show up properly, so I am going to repeat this one:

    http://no-maam.blogspot.com/

    Rob Fedders has been involved since the very beginning, and this, his final blog, contains an amazing wealth of information, both in the center section and in the sidebar.

  • Chris Carleton

    @eon

    Thanks for the link.

    Your reply was lengthy, but I have to object to this:

    ““assertions” can indeed constitute proof”

    It’s not possible. This is definitely an absurdity. Evidence supports assertions, not the other way around. If there is a preponderance of evidence for any aspect of this very complicated subject then fine, but an assertion does not constitute evidence.

    Also, “feminist academia refuses to consider such topics.” is certainly a bold, sweeping statement that I think is incorrect. I’ll try to dig out the papers I’m thinking of, but I’m confident that the affect of the feminist movement on men in society is being looked at, though as you say it’s just picking up steam.

    I think you’ve misunderstood if you believe this to describe my position:
    “You are not the first person here to “not want to see the dots connected””. Clearly, since I’m asking for more information, tangible evidence of a sort, I’m interested in following the argument.

    In this statement from @Jeremy I think I see some of the communication breakdown, which surely must be my fault:

    “I invite you to spend a night practicing game in a social situation and then come back here and tell me that what is asserted here is not at the very least testable, if not plausibly true.”

    I’m not really that interested in whether “Game”, as a behavioural prescription, yields desired results. I’m only interested in the theoretical underpinnings of Market Sex Value and Rollo’s Market Sex Potential. Those are two things that I can imagine there might be good data for—either that exists already or could be collected experimentally. So, all I wanted was to know was whether he was basing the curves on data or using them to graphically explain a hypothetical situation that contributes to his arguments about the nature of human mating. I’ve read at least one evolutionary economics paper on mate selection that mentioned something similar to market sex valuations. I see nothing offhand “disingenuous and irrelevant” about asking for evidence.

  • eon

    Chris said: “… I have to object to this: “ “assertions” can indeed constitute proof. It’s not possible. This is definitely an absurdity. Evidence supports assertions, not the other way around. If there is a preponderance of evidence for any aspect of this very complicated subject then fine, but an assertion does not constitute evidence.”

    Yeah, that is why I put quotation marks around your term, to indicate that I was using it in a nonstandard way, to tie what I was saying to how you had approached it above.

    I doubt that any sincere person was confused by how I presented my point.

    Then Chris said: “Clearly, since I’m asking for more information, tangible evidence of a sort, I’m interested in following the argument.”

    No, clearly, from the structure of your comments, you are a concern troll, with a touch of sperg.

    We have seen many versions of you before. You are not fooling anyone.

  • New Yorker

    @ Chris

    Chris,

    Reading your comments, I sense a smug superiority of someone who has never been exposed to the elements. It is also the attitude of someone who believes that he is the only “elite” person in the group. Whatever your credentials, I can assure you that there are people on this forum who would help you find your modesty if we had to compare credentials.

    With that said, what Rollo talks about easily falls into the self-evident category. Having discussed this issue among many men, I have yet to hear anyone object on any other grounds except that it is too painful to see the truth. We can argue about “data” all you want but at some point we all know the answer. These are points that resonate with pretty much all men…unless of course my sample is just horribly flawed…there is always a chance but I am comfortable with that risk.

    Finally, on “data”. Life and business are experimental fields. Everyone’s “data” is different in that each person internalizes specific takeaways from every situation. Over time, they begin to rely on certain indicators. These habits are true among athletes (who grow obsessive about specific training regimen), businessmen who avoid certain types of situations, etc. These are habits and behaviors that do not lend themselves easily
    to scientific proof as there is no way to get accurate measurements. However, these habits and behaviors also contribute to great success. Hence, while the data is not public and transparent, there are broad takeways from their behavior that clearly make sense. The subjects on this blog fall into the same category.

    Finally, and I hate to get personal. You say that you never had any trouble with women. Well, for someone who looks very wedded to his academic identity, the only way that would be true is if you never ventured out of that academic circle…and even then, stuck only to the most conservative females. Or, perhaps you married outside of academia to someone who was in awe of your academic credentials (have seen both stories before many times). If you look carefully enough at your situation, the SMP arguments become pretty straightforward.

  • Jeremy

    …I’m only interested in the theoretical underpinnings of Market Sex Value and Rollo’s Market Sex Potential. Those are two things that I can imagine there might be good data for—either that exists already or could be collected experimentally.

    By what medium would such “good data” be collected and recorded?

    I see nothing offhand “disingenuous and irrelevant” about asking for evidence.

    Those are not my words.

  • LiveFearless on NBC

    It doesn’t matter that the man behind author name ‘Rollo Tomassi” is a lot like Peter Diamandis.THE MATTRESS POLICE CHRIS CARLETON® is afraid he has to pull rank on @Rollo Tomassi

  • Water Cannon Boy

    Correction-Chris actually said that he hasn’t had much trouble with women. Not that has hasn’t had any. So maybe looking at the trouble that he has had,(which he has had trouble because he said so) he can start there for his data.

    The study of anthropology involves studying and making assertions on past (dead, no longer available to interview for concrete data) cultures and people. Many conclusions in that realm are considered valid.

    Chris to Eon-“Your reply was lengthy…
    Found that amusing.

    If the book gets enough notice, I can see this playing out exactly on a talk show somewhere. (our studio expert has credentials, do you have them?)

    Live fearless-“…the man behind author name ‘Rollo Tomassi” …
    What?!!

  • eon

    @ Chris

    I never said that asking for evidence was disingenuous and irrelevant.

    What I said was: You are not the first person here to “not want to see the dots connected”, and so your arguments become visible as repetitive, disingenuous and irrelevant.

    You said: Also, “feminist academia refuses to consider such topics.” is certainly a bold, sweeping statement that I think is incorrect. I’ll try to dig out the papers I’m thinking of, but I’m confident that the affect of the feminist movement on men in society is being looked at, though as you say it’s just picking up steam.

    An example of being disingenuous is when you “think that it is incorrect” that feminist academia is not evenhanded and that its studies are tailored to avoid findings contrary to its agenda.

    The effect of the feminist movement on men in society is being looked at by various entities, but not in an honest way by feminist academia.

    Instead, feminist academia is doing stuff like forcing Harvard University President Lawrence Summers to resign for thinking that women, who can now practically simply walk into any program of their choosing, might be self-selecting out of STEM because it does not appeal to them, instead of because … you know .. The Patriarchy.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Chris, I understand your want for empirical data, but I don’t think you’ve been involved in the manosphere long enough to know where to look for it. As has been mentioned Dalrock and Heartiste (mostly) are statisticians, but did you read the article I linked in my post?

    http://www.justfourguys.com/quantifying-sexual-market-value/

    It may take a bit of reading for you but I also link the work of Dr. Martie Hasselton on my side bar:

    http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/

    You might also Google Dr. Warren Farrell. He and Hasselton are references for me.

    As I stated above though, I expect you’ll find some flaws with the assessments and conclusions drawn from them because they wont fit neatly into the ego-investments you hold and have been condition for about gender and women.

  • Chris Carleton

    Hi Rollo,

    Thanks, that’s exactly what I wanted. I’ll get back to you after I’ve read those. I’m not exactly sure about what this means:

    “ego-investments you hold and have been condition for about gender and women”

    But, I can say that I’m a pretty objective researcher and compelling arguments supported by good data *should* convince me. Part of being a skeptic, in my opinion, is a willingness to change ones mind in light of new evidence.

    On a related note, I’ve found one of the references I was hoping to share. Here’s the citation:

    Kaplan et al. 2010 Learning, menopause, and the human adaptive complex. Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci. 1204:30-42.

    Bearing in mind that the data in there aren’t perfect. There are some concerns about how it was gathered, but overall it’s compelling and the dataset is impressive nonetheless. The main points of the article aren’t really what I want to draw attention to. Rather, there is an empirical assessment of male peak performance vis. resource acquisition that, I think, actually supports your SMP curve. I can’t distribute the article but email me if you’d like to know more and don’t have access to the journal.

  • Tin Man

    I’ve spent too many years in marketing and sales (along with a stint in market research) to believe that data does anything but help some people sleep better at night. Anyone that has more than 10 years of experience, and are aware of what’s going on around them, will know that most of what is presented in the Manosphere is mostly true – just like stats, data, and research studies – there will be outliers, events that don’t represent the norm, but they are the exception, not the rule.

    Here’s my assertion…a single person may or may not act in a specific way, which is why we get the NAWALT as the base argument – or just general shaming tactic like – “your a misogynist” – but “in general” you can expect a certain sequence of reactions, to a certain sequence of actions – or for someone to behave in certain way.

    Most of what we have in this world is “observed” behavior – which is always easy to a poke hole into, but in my book, it’s good enough to get someone going, and then like YaReally and EON have stated – go test it yourself.

  • Chris Carleton

    For issues to do with credentialism, please see my earlier arguments. It’s an issue of source criticism and understanding—note that people aren’t allowed to publish anonymously in academia and for very good reasons.

    @WaterCannonBoy

    I have minor point of contention with this:

    “The study of anthropology involves studying and making assertions on past (dead, no longer available to interview for concrete data) cultures and people. Many conclusions in that realm are considered valid.”

    Anthropologists in NA follow, typically, a four-field approach, only one of which deals with “dead” cultures and people, with the exception that a grey area is arising regarding historical ethnography as time progresses. That field is archaeology (my field). Adding to that, “considered valid” doesn’t readily apply—the debates in the anthropological literature are vigorous and hardly anything has been unanimously decided with respect to any large, interesting questions about society and culture (however one chooses to define those). The closer you look, the more confusing everything seems. Anyhow, I only comment because I’m very interested in anthropology, not because this issue really speaks to the original points I raised, which Rollo has largely already addressed to my satisfaction.

    On another issue…

    @NewYorker

    You said: “With that said, what Rollo talks about easily falls into the self-evident category. Having discussed this issue among many men, I have yet to hear anyone object on any other grounds except that it is too painful to see the truth.”

    I disagree about it’s “self-evidence” but we can’t resolve that here and I’ll have to look at the rest of the literature Rollo provided to really be comfortable confronting you directly on this.

    As for the rest of the statement, just because a lot of people seem to agree on a a highly subject topic or have some shared experience is not in itself de facto evidence of anything. There are too many biases and unquantified numbers of men who all *feel* the same way about an issue to disentangle the mess. As I’ve said, a lot of this might boil down to a confirmatory bias and that’s part of what I’m trying to evaluate (again only possible through further reading, graciously provided by Rollo and a link from Eon).

    Thanks to everyone for their considered replies.

  • New Yorker

    Chris,

    This is a great forum for discussion, irrespective of views. If you disagree with anything written, please, advocate what you think is a plausible alternative explanation of behavior. We are unlikely to approach the burden of proof that an academic journal would require….but if every engineer, businessman or explorer needed that burden of proof then we would likely still be in the stone age.

  • YaReally

    “the knowledge has to be 1) self-evident, 2) already established, or readily and objectively verifiable”

    The knowledge is both of those…to people who go out and socially apply game regularly, instead of sitting inside trying to get other people to Google data for you.

    You could ask me for scientific data papers determining that the sun is bright…or you could just open a fucking window and look outside like the rest of us lol

    It’s Saturday. Go out tonight and watch the sexual marketplace in action. Even better: participate in it. Even better: do that every night for a few years.

    Or you can wait for the scientific paper from Harvard where thousands of married women admit to fucking assholes like me in the bathroom of a bar on their girls’ nights out. I’m sure they’re working on that study right now and thousands of women will raise their hands to admit that kind of stuff happens lol

  • YaReally

    @Chris

    The mistake your making with Rollo is the same one that a lot of my haters in the Manosphere make about me because I post a lot of Tyler PUA videos: you’re assuming that Rollo is spouting his own personal theories from a mountain-top and the rest of us are just standing below in a cult-like fashion saying “yes Rollo, if you say it, then it’s true! Go forth and spread the word everyone, our leader has blessed us with his guidance!” People think that’s how Tyler’s “cult” works too.

    What those people, and yourself, don’t grasp is that there are no “leaders” in this stuff. None of us accepts this shit at face value except the keyboard jockeys (and ironically those guys are the ones who tend to argue and mentally masturbate over theories the most lol).

    The reason Rollo and Heartiste are popular isn’t because their readers have given them god-like status…it’s because the stuff they write resonates with the vast majority of men’s life experiences. And we go out and test this stuff for ourselves to see it first-hand. And if it doesn’t work, we come back and report that, and debate the nuances of what works and doesn’t work, then go out and test it again, until we get something that resonates consistently with our experiences.

    That’s why who Rollo is is irrelevant. You are relying on a scientific paper to tell you shit you don’t know and giving that paper authority over you, as in what that paper says is what reality is, so in that situ it’s very important who wrote that paper.

    In this situ it’s not important because if Rollo writes “women want you to supplicate and always do what they tell you to do”, we have thousands of men who will say “no fucking way, we all did that and she ditched us”, and we can go out and approach 100 girls each and build attraction then supplicate to them and experience for ourselves how it changes the dynamics.

    We are not a group following a few leaders…we are a group who combines their experiences and look to guys like Rollo and Heartiste to write easily understandable articles that break down and teach the concepts that we all find to align with most men’s experiences.

    Like I say, go out tonight and conduct your own research. That’s what I’m doing. If it doesn’t align with what Rollo writes about, I’ll tell him and as a group we’ll figure out why there are differing results until we nail down what’s going on.

  • Stingray

    Jeremy,

    I apologize for not responding to your comment yet. I’m working on it, but I just haven’t had the time to write it up yet. I hope to get back to you soon.

  • Tin Man

    @YaReally…

    Quick question and off topic (sorry Rollo) — just curious what you’re thoughts are on someone older (I’m 52) and wondering if age is a barrier and possibly where I could get advice geared towards a older guy. Or maybe just tell me – it doesn’t matter. Just curious…thanks.

  • eon

    I just wanted to mention that there is no reason for sincere readers to hesitate about participating in the discussions here.

    Comments without an agenda are discussed on their merits, sincere newcomers are guided carefully, and honest questions are never treated as stupid.

    However, an arrogant and disparaging approach that resembles historical interactions with feminists tends to meet with little tolerance.

    If Chris had done something like:

    1) approach with respect and a bit of humility (especially since Rollo has put a great deal of time and intelligent thought into helping men)

    2) acknowledge that a) creating explanatory models using incomplete data from many similar but unrelated situations, and b) providing honest interpretations of formal studies, are both necessary

    3) state that the formal approach is more to his liking, and then ask to be directed to such sources and sites

    then everybody would have been welcoming, helpful and friendly.

  • Philip Gattey

    @Tin Man
    Sept 21rst 2013

    Not Rollo… but may God Bless him, and, since I am 56 let me say that age is not yet a barrier , the rules described here, still apply.

  • Tin Man

    @Phillip

    Thanks…I’ve learned a bunch, but have a ways to go. Most of what I’ve learned over the few years is that I don’t want to be married – but then again, I’ve got kids – and trying to inpart as much of this knowledge as possible to them – but I’m ready to start having fun with woman again – not get into a relationship – fun and frolic only. Any advice is always welcome from any of the gentlemen here.

  • 100th Post Blogapalooza | Donal Graeme

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  • Rol

    @Chris

    Scientific studies are not the be all end all, in that they’re always conducted by people, and all people have bias (although the best studies try to minimize this). Methodology, funding, etc, all play a role in the outcome. However, they can be and are more often than not, very useful depending on context.

    I’ve had various medical conditions that I couldn’t find answers to for many years. I went to numerous doctors and read countless “studies.” I was able to alleviate my issues based on “anecdotal evidence” I read about through various online forums/message boards. I had to go this route because, in general, doctors (big pharma) have more of an interest in making money through repeat business and expensive procedures.

    There are people who benefit from the ignorance of the average male when it comes to the issues that are discussed throughout the manosphere. You can’t even have these conversations with most people in your everyday life without taking a lot of heat (sometimes outright hostility).

    I have friends who I label “Blue Pillers,” that would tell you with a straight face that they’ve not had issues with women. I’ve seen quite the opposite with my own eyes. Some men seem to almost enjoy being little more than slaves to their women. Social conditioning and sometimes outright denial is the order of the day with a lot of men. Most men I’d say.

    Stick around, I guarantee if you approach this with an open mind you stand a good chance of having an epiphany, one that could even save your life one day…

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  • Stingray

    @ Jeremy,

    My response to your question is here.

    Given it’s length it made more sense to post it there.

  • ManlyMan

    SSM is having a meltdown.

  • Robert

    @ TinMan

    Age is not irrelevant, but it only matters if she’s looking for a beast of burden. Otherwise you play the temporary comfort, the kindly father figure, the charming older man, the sage. Think Bhagwan Sri Ranjeesh. In my case lucky genetics mean I can still pass about 10 years below my physical, but being a ‘free spirit’ is where the attraction lies.

  • Vi Nay

    It’s never a coincidence that women’s “choices” in men start to change significantly from the age of 23 to 25 – as shown on the SMP Curve when their sexual market value commences descent mode. Cute and hot women will most signify this trend, as their once options of good-looking men are taken to one side for a perhaps lesser looking man. They often cloud this reality with reasons along the lines of preferring other metrics – personality, charisma, loyalty, etc – to justify their path, but the stronger truth is their egoism subconsciously drawing them away from a man who is presently as, or more, eye catching as her. Women will know that as every year passes by the visual impressiveness moves to the side of a man (providing a man looks after himself), therefore a woman in the 23-25 age range will choose a less striking man earlier than she actually has to do so. Call it a contingency ploy if you will.

  • Jeremy

    @ManlyMan

    SSM is having a meltdown.

    What?

  • Rollo Tomassi

    For a blog not “affiliated” with red pill ‘truth’ or the manosphere she sure writes a lot of about both.

    She should just close all comments and go full Walsh.

  • furiousferrett

    SSM isn’t a bad woman or anything. She has actual good intentions. People shouldn’t hold a lady up to a man’s standards.

    That’s the real issue. Men shouldn’t be looking for advice from women. Susan Walsh and SSM do the best with what they have but they inherently limited. Women should be the ones that hang out there not guys.

  • Jeremy

    Reading some of the comments, I’m losing respect for SSM with almost everything she writes at this point. Lots of assertions about the manosphere without evidence, generalizations as points, accusations if intellectual dishonesty without evidence.

    Frankly, I think it’s her that is having a problem with having the core part of her FI questioned. She wants to believe in the virtue of herself and women as a baseline, but she completely ignores all the hard work she put into becoming a “virtuous” woman. It’s like she forgets all the time she spent listening to sermons from preachers and dealing with her own human nature.

    Having come out of a cult and watched the women there deal with numerous doctrine changes directed at their behavior, I can say that when it comes to the feminine and religious rules, it can get very ugly.

  • LiveFearless on NBC

    Great Man of Higher Knowledge, Grander Education Than You His Majesty Chris Carleton® writes: I’m not really that interested in whether “Game”, as a behavioural prescription, yields desired results. I’m only interested in the theoretical underpinnings of Market Sex Value and Rollo’s Market Sex Potential.

    In other words, “I’m interested in THEORY rather than truth that actually applies to real life since this is a game to me.” Some are into fantasy football, some are into ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’ and others are into watching sports on television (instead of participating in getting in shape themselves). Being only interested in ‘theory’ is an extreme intention to continue to believe in the world of fairy tales. When grants are received for publishing archeological journals… When so many tax-payer-funded program leaders of self-proclaimed scholarly programs in the Authority of all Truth and Knowledge pat a person on the head… When everyone says “You’re a good boy serving society in the greatness of your work”… it’s easy to feel that someone that we are all so amazed at (like Great Man of Higher Knowledge, Grander Education Than You, His Majesty Chris Carleton®… that he can challenge Rollo Tomassi.

    Let’s all forget about the actual truths, and bow down to serve someone that’s been published once in a recognized journal of academia. Don’t you get it, Chris Carleton is above you – you are a lesser being than the great one… Great Man of Higher Knowledge, Grander Education Than You His Majesty Chris Carleton®

  • Matthew King

    Mr. Carleton,

    I have been dealing with these chuckleheads and their inane epistemologies for over two years now, and I associate myself 100% with your remarks. There is nothing to be done, do yourself a favor and waste no more of your time.

    You very politely begged to differ, and the zealots around here treated you like you came in bad faith, as though you were stupid and/or malicious. Rest assured, that paranoia is on them.

    You also charitably demonstrated that this collection of ideologues, amateurs, and dilettantes are simply not ready for prime time. They treat scrutiny like apostasy, therefore they do not learn from criticism, therefore they do not grow. Thank you for calling their almighty bluff. Though it is too little, too late.

    The recent Business Insider account of the church of “The Red Pill” similarly exposes their many flaws once they take their first steps outside the echo chamber. They see mainstream people as infiltrators and interlopers, rogue evil agents spoiling the purity of their creed, when they should instead embrace them as opportunities to reach greater audiences. But, though they were initially motivated by truth, they stopped worrying about veracity long ago.

    They are only interested in repeating what little they know to themselves and to people who cannot relate, just to experience the sensation of superiority. Their mission now is to forcibly inform unfortunate “blue pill” wretches about their inadequate insight into the world. It’s a childish game of status. And their initial discoveries, had they built upon them rather than hoarding them for occult purposes, would have become something powerful by now.

    If there were an honest one left among them, they could conquer the culture, because they occasionally still alight upon the truth. But the honest ones are howled at, and really, there are better things to do than be howled at. The best of them all eventually get out of Dodge, leaving the Peter Principle to disseminate what once could have been the answer to a century of feminism.

    Learn quickly and move on from here. Do something constructive with their handful of insights. Conducting studies to explore those insights’ integrity is one of them. Explaining to them how bankrupt their method is, as you can see, pointless at best. At worst, it puts them into a defensive crouch, which makes them still more ornery and stagnated.

    Matt

  • Chris Carleton

    Thanks for the angry, aggressive, ad hom., diatribe, @Live Fearless (Sam). I think I’ve been one of the few participants in this often overly aggressive back-and-forth that hasn’t resorted to cheap debate tactics like false dichotomy and ad hom’ing. Generally, I wouldn’t even dignify such comments with a reply, but in this case you seem to be really angry about what’s been written, if I can be forgiven for taking the liberty of reading between the lines. For someone whose own webpage describes him as eloquent, however, I find the second paragraph in your assault to be largely uninterpretable. Anyhow, I’ve made no claims to eliteness—I’ve only (and I’ve said this a few times already) enquired about the author, the sources, and the evidence. I don’t want to rehash my rationale for asking about these things, but subsequent discussions here also touched on another subject that I find very interesting and for which I have a great passion: epistemology. In that regard, I would only point interested readers to my own influencers and allow their arguments to illustrate my position. I would point to Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and Ben Goldacre, all of whom have very good arguments for the importance of the scientific method, source criticism, and avoiding logical fallacies when making arguments about nearly any subject. I would also argue that for all of the assertions about my arrogance that have been made, the pseudo religious and certainly dogmatic Matrix metaphor that seems pervasive in the manosphere hints at an incredible arrogance on the part of the authors and highlights one of the most common, most pedestrian, fallacious arguments that can be made. In my experience, for what it’s worth, it’s also a sure sign of a weak position to become so inflamed when pressed for objective evidence or held to a particular standard for the burden of proof on the part of a claimant.

    As for the information you’ve obviously gathered about me, I’ve only made it extremely easy to determine who I am, what my experience and education are like, and what my biases probably are—the same cannot be said of most everyone else. On that note, so far I have authored two publications, but plan many more since I’m only just at the beginning of my research career, not that it says anything about the debate I was participating in here. Insofar as an indication of the veracity of a conclusion or the efficacy of an argument, I completely agree that a person’s credentials (or publication record) are largely irrelevant as long as the argument itself contains enough information to judge it (though, obviously I didn’t think that was the case here). In that light, I can confidently say that I don’t particularly care who a person is or what their credentials are—I am happy, and sometimes feel compelled, to challenge any argument, made by any person, on any subject when I see that a challenge is warranted. My career, immature as it is so far, is being built on challenging people’s ideas, including some of the most well-credentialed individuals in my field. Names and credentials don’t intimidate me and, for some, that make’s me appear precocious, even upstart, but I carry on regardless. For me, it is rather like a “game”, I suppose. I enjoy the intellectual exercise and I don’t see how or why that should upset anyone.

  • ManlyMan

    Chris- The problem with your stance is that many men have been hurt in some cases severely by the current system of male/female relations. So for you to enjoy this stuff as an “intellectual exercise” would be offensive in the extreme to those men.

  • Chris Carleton

    @Matt

    Sounds reasonable to me. I suspect I have already spent too much time trying to defend or explain myself—after all, there’s only about 1000 readings on my desk and a dissertation to finish so I’m sure my supervisor would strongly agree that I should just get back to work already!

    I also definitely agree that there are highly interesting nuggets in these posts and I’ll have to work on those when I get time.

    C

  • FuriousFerret

    @Matt

    I think you’re projecting your own extreme Catholic zealotry on us.

    @Chris

    This whole thing is getting hot women to drop their panties and a guide to not being a some woman’s bitch. Do we really need double blind studies to tell that the concepts here are true especially when we see it play out in real life and replicated by thousands upon thousands of men?

    I mean do you demand proof that water is wet? In today’s crazy society I wouldn’t be surprised if such a study was commissioned and the conclusions we were told was that water really isn’t wet, we just think it is. It’s actually whatever the researchers want to be. It can wet today and dry to tomorrow depending on how it suits them.

  • Sisyphus

    Our dimwitted Jesuit Matt King writes:

    “You very politely begged to differ, and the zealots around here treated you like you came in bad faith, as though you were stupid and/or malicious. Rest assured, that paranoia is on them.”

    OK guys. Who wants a $10 bill for every time Matt King has responded this way to someone who politely disagreed with his sermonizing?

  • Antex

    I agree, letting the women “love” you for your power and money, rather than your true charme and personality is very “beta”, someway.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    The responses to Chris do seem a little hostile. And him being the scientist, I can see where his desire to see analytical data or some sort of testable, controlled situation.
    However, some knowledge comes from experiencing, and that knowledge can be taken as truthful. Like the person who can read body language and facial expressions doesn’t need to have somebody actually measure a millimeter raise of an eyebrow, a slight increase in heart rate, or whether the pupils sightly dilated.
    This isn’t a scientific study, no scientific method. None of the blog entries I’ve read are. They came from living life, talking to other people who have, and being observant and insightful.

  • Jeebus (no relation)

    Jesuit Pope Francis told the Catholic publication, La Civilta Cattolica that the Catholic Church shouldn’t be “obsessed” with preaching about gay marriage.

    Was that flirting?

  • Tin Man

    They question raised by @Chris is valid…where’s the science, where’s the research? Who are the sources? Can they be vetted? And, what I would say, and this is without hostility at all — get on your keyboard and start searching — “man up” and do what we do, take your own action. If there is no research and you believe it is both valid and necessary, then do it yourself.

    My assumption, because I don’t know your motivation, is that you are more interested in reading something, than doing something. And that’s where I would call you out – and many others here have done the same thing – either step up to the plate and take your swings or step away and let someone else have their chance at bat.

    And @Matt – I really enjoy your comments. Whether I agree or not, I’m glad you’re here – challenging. All of us need to be challenged – including you – because that is where we either forge our thoughts/ideals into something stronger or melt them back to be used for as something else.

  • Thomas Gray

    A scientific approach to analyzing human behaviour is very difficult. Even more so because once you figure something out and publish about it, the theory will not apply anymore because humans learn and adapt. Primal behaviours that we have no control over can be mapped a bit better, but our intellectual forebrain is powerful and often corrects these primal behaviourisms.

    This causes these studies to be non-reproducable, it is an inherent quality. And thus alpha studies are seen as non-scientific by many beta studies scholars. As for all empirical evidence to hold someone else needs to be able to reproduce it under the same circumstances.

    However, myself being from both worlds now (BSc in Molecular Science, MSc in Management Studies & Economics) have accepted the fact that carefully conducted case studies involving human behaviour do lead to assumptions and conclusions that are valid and usable in human interactions. And this is (exactly) what part of the PickUp community has been doing for the better part of the last two decades.

    Although the earlier linked field reports will contain many overly biased perspectives due to emotions towards the opposite sex, if one identifies the cases that do try to exclude certain bias then a proper study can be conducted. Mystery, for example, can be mentioned as one of the first who tried to apply a scientific method to his outings in the field. Testing certain variables, one at a time, until he found patterns. And so did others.

    These patterns were then build upon and through application by many thousands of men worldwide they were further developed and extenuated, leading to the elucidation of psychology and social behaviour that are at the root of these patterns.

    The behavioural studies done by these (often amateur) people can be viewed as how early experimental scientists went to work. An unexplored field that requirs unorthodox methods, sometimes even unethical, but still valid.

    The truths that many people here refer to come from these case studies, combined with their own experience which become part of the pool of case studies too. Instead of publishing the findings in scientific journals they have become part of an ongoing conversation and developing body of knowledge. (Disregarding the fact that none of the academic journals would even dare burn their fingers on these ‘controversial’ articles anyway.) The accumulated knowledge not being published in a scientific journal by ‘qualified’ people does not make it invalid or less true.

    @Chris
    The reason why you seem to be getting flak is your outright confession of being a keyboard jockey. Someone who just engages in theory and doesn’t want to apply the knowledge to test or develop it for themselves. (Although in my personal opinion by reading about these things it will change your own behaviour, if ever so slightly, too.) And keyboard jockeys are not well liked in the PickUp community, because they don’t contribute anything but grief. The reason for this is that to be able to handle and explore the theories you need to experience their influence and perspectives in the physical world. By just sitting behind your keyboard and reading/discussing these issues the openmindedness needed to engage in these discussions is not being developed. Simply because this requires physical human interaction.

    Simply said, if you are looking for scientific validation as is taught in university, you won’t find it because there is non. The closest things are the works of Mystery and a select few others.

  • The Burninator

    It seems to me that a good place to start data type research would be with studies on the great apes and their social interactions, specifically those wired socially like us (chimps and gorillas, but not bonobos nor orangutangs). For example, there are numerous observations of female gorillas using emotional manipulation and trickery on males in order to achieve goals, since they are too weak to affect change through force. There are little poltics there, whereas for humans it’s all about politics.

    The trouble with human sociological studies is that they are hardly a science to begin with. They could be, but the human ego is too frail to admit faults or issues in our essential psychological hard wiring.

    There are studies, Rollo’s linked some, but rigor and experimentation is deeply biased in this field, mostly due to feminism and emotional attachments to ideologies (IMHO). Hence the reliance on FR’s. Myself, I’d love to see actual hard data. So would most in the “social sciences”. Just my two cents, YMMV.

  • Chris Carleton

    @ThomasGray said: “Even more so because once you figure something out and publish about it, the theory will not apply anymore because humans learn and adapt. Primal behaviours that we have no control over can be mapped a bit better, but our intellectual forebrain is powerful and often corrects these primal behaviourisms.

    This causes these studies to be non-reproducable, it is an inherent quality. And thus alpha studies are seen as non-scientific by many beta studies scholars. As for all empirical evidence to hold someone else needs to be able to reproduce it under the same circumstances.”

    But, there are countless examples of reproduced studies across pretty much every social science discipline. For example, see the studies in

    Gender differences in personality: A meta-analysis.
    Feingold, Alan Psychological Bulletin, Vol 116(3), Nov 1994, 429-456

    or look at any other meta-analysis in psychology and you’ll see troves of reproduced results. You can’t argue for an essential, primal behaviour that applies universally and then say that it will change once the journal goes to print—the idea also assumes that all people would have access to, and care to read, the journal and that they would modify their behaviour (assuming they were able to in the first place).

    @TheBurninator (burninating the countryside) said: “…hardly a science to begin with”

    This is highly debatable, I think, and depends on your perspective. My point on this issue, raised a lot as you can imagine when you’re in the social sciences, is that science is a process with a particular method. You can study anything using a scientific approach. It just so happens that, as you and @ThoasGray have pointed out, human societies are damned complicated and there’s a lot going there. Not to mention the fact that finding something you can measure, and understanding what the measurement is telling you, is the first step and is where many studies fall on their proverbial faces. As for the ideas about looking to our nearest relatives, I agree completely. I’m sure if I looked, I’d find some interesting studies that are quite relevant.

    Both interesting points, and I kind of like where the ideas are going, which is making it hard to stop reading, but I hope no one takes offence if I don’t respond further.

  • VH

    Hi Rollo and everybody else!

    Now that you are talking about Game and science, I thought that maybe somebody would find this list of relationship studies (compiled by me) interesting: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hNUTHl_MGrb2oBNz0xweRwwg7Mku641gG7jQ_v936UQ/edit (more than 250+ study links)

    I used to read Manosphere blogs very actively, but at some point I thought that it’d be interesting to see whether the scientific papers also support the viewpoints expressed here. It was quite surprising to me that, actually, quite many papers tend to support the opinions I’ve seen on this blog and others…

  • Archon

    Don’t get caught up responding to Chris any more than you would talking to a chick who shows up here and insists that we’re all a bunch of misogynists.

    Show me the hard data in history. Show me the double-blind, placebo-controlled studies in history. What’s that you say, there are none? Well damn, the conclusion one is forced to reach is that it’s impossible to know anything about history.

    There’s a useful question lurking here, but it’s not the one that Chris is asking. Don’t project it onto what he’s said so far. That question is: why should I believe Rollo? Isn’t this all just opinion? That’s sort of like saying, do you still beat your wife? There’s a hidden premise here, and that’s that there’s hard data and everything that’s not hard data is of equal value.

    The transition from blue-pill to red-pill is seeing all these “opinions” that manospherians and puas post, going out and living life for a bit, and seeing “omg, that theory I read totally explains what I see, and the predictions the theory makes matches what people do.”

    Do we write academic papers? No. We don’t need to. There IS hard data that’s not published by pencil-necked academics, you know. There might be bias in field reports, but how many of those lays are lies? Are you an ex-blue-pill virgin or chump that’s since gotten laid? Seems like truth to me.

    Finally: wtf do you care whether anyone else believes you? Let’s go be men.

  • Tin Man

    @Archon

    “Finally: wtf do you care whether anyone else believes you? Let’s go be men.”

    Amen Brother. We don’t need no stinkin’ data to prove nothin’ to us. There are only two types – those that do and those that don’t. Regardless of what the “doing” is.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I think it’s important to bear in mind that red pill awareness is the result of an aggregate of male experience from a global consortium of men, who before the rise of the internet and digital communication never had the opportunity to collect in one place.

    If one were to be a scientific ‘expert’ on the red pill, he would need to be a sociologist, psychologist, biologist, endocrinologist, historian, evolutionary specialist, archeologist, etc.

    Yes, there are plenty of scientific studies that reinforce red pill theory, but it’s important to remember that no one guy is an expert on what is still an evolving science.

  • xsplat

    Thanks for the google docs link VH. I’m looking over that now and it looks like you’ve compiled a great resource.

  • Underdog

    If Aunt Giggles was a doll, when squeezed it it would say “Where’s the data?”

  • Rollo Tomassi

    That was before she sold the rights of HUS to the Huffington Post. Now it’s just 17 magazine for aging spinsters.

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