Soft Dread

soft-dread

 

In the past I’ve covered in various detail the utility of instilling dread in a woman both pre and post monogamy. It’s been one of the more contentious principles I’ve endorsed, with women tending to revile me for having brought men to the awareness of dread’s uses, and men concurring with, but often hesitant in applying dread for fear of the backlash for having used dread conspicuously.

In Dread Games I made an attempt to clear up the real inevitability of dread in any average relationship. Dread is going to be a factor in any relationship due to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the one with the most power is the one who cares the least.

As Roissy and many legitimate psychologists will tell you, the most secure relationships generally result from about a 1-2 point SMV imbalance favoring the Man in the relationship. In this imbalance, the actual strength  of that secure feminine attachment to the man (both in and out of a monogamous commitment) can be expressed as a soft, or passive form of dread. This expression of dread is still rooted in a woman’s imagination of emotional, physical and provisional loss, but just as the application of that dread is passive, so too is a woman’s progressive realization of that dread.

Soft Dread

Mrs. Tomassi and I were recently talking with a woman of about 49. She’s the ever-present front desk host at our gym and a casual acquaintance and friend. She’s not particularly unattractive for her age, reasonably good shape from a body perspective – I can tell she used to enjoy a lot of male attention in her 20s and maybe 30’s – but now just this side of 50 she’s moved not so much into a regret stage, but rather a hopeful sense of well post-Wall self-remorse. That might sound odd, but she’s at least optimistic about her ‘chances’ of getting with a “good man” in the near future.

She’s quite upfront and honest about the Alpha Bad Boy Jerks she’s dated, married one and then divorced from her past. In fact she’s one of the more lucid women I’ve encountered about her present state and how she came to it. Although she’s the typical result of a hypergamous life prolonged past the “eating her cake too” phase, she owns her mistakes.

Although we generally hit Gold’s at different times, occasionally  the wife and I go together in the mornings. It was on one of these mornings, and our friend at the counter stopped us to say,

“I love you guys, I really do. I see a lot of people pass through here but when I see you both together it gives me hope that I can have a good relationship like you two. You’re such a team, I really hope I can meet a guy I can connect with like that.”

We were on our way out, and she always has something else to say about her personal life so, while I guess I was somewhat flattered, I didn’t pay it much mind. That is until our ride back home when Mrs. Tomassi looked me square in the face and said, “I am so glad I didn’t end up like that!” I was actually kind of surprised at the tone of her voice. “Thank God that’s not me, how horrible to be in that position at her age.” I nodded my head because I knew she was expecting my usually analyzations of post-Wall women and the beds they make. Then, with a hint of a tear in her eye, she gave me one of the best compliments I’ve ever heard from her, “I hope Bebé finds and marries a Man just like you.”

That made me feel really good, and what I’m about to type here sound really shitty. After not a small swell of pride, I thought, while it’s nice to be appreciated in this respect, would this realization have come without the influence of our friend and her state of life?

You see, what I experienced that morning was a sort of de fact association of social proof. Granted, I’m not taking anything away from the love and solidity upon which my marriage and our relationship is founded on, but was I just the right guy in the right place for this realization to come to awareness? What I had just participated in was a form of soft dread. A dread that needs no emphasis or prompting from a Man, simply the occasion for it to come to the surface to be actualized.

When a Man’s status is long established it’s easy to take his qualities for granted by women. It takes another woman’s lack to bring that status into focus for her. In the same vein that women will pre-approve or pre-qualify you for another woman’s intimacy, likewise the personal state of other women will serve as a benchmark of social proof for a Man’s wife or LTR. I realize this has the potential to cut the other way for women who are more well off than others, but the dynamic is real. I’ve written in the past that women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices Men must make to facilitate their feminine reality, but if they ever come close to this appreciation it’s only at the prompting of women outside the relationship who can recognize it in the Men committed to other women.

Progressive Dread

The admittedly very rough graph I created to illustrate the contemporary sexual marketplace (SMP) is almost a manosphere link staple now. However, I’m going to reuse it once more here to illustrate another point:

Print

When I wrote Navigating the SMP it was in response to a need for visualization of how men and women’s respective sexual market value (SMV) differentiate at different phases of their lives. Using this model it’s not too far a stretch to illustrate how dread plays a factor in women’s self, and relational awareness.

At their SMV peak, adjusting for the mean average, women’s potential for experiencing dread is as low as it will be in a lifetime. During this phase the potential for replacing a respective mate (or STR lover) is almost a nonissue. Even in emotionally invested relationships during this phase, the subliminal presence of a basic, unprompted, dread of loss is pushed into unawareness for women.

That dread of loss is replaced with the dread of insecurity as a woman ages toward the Wall. Before I continue here, it’s important to remember that security comes in many different forms – financial, emotional, psychological, spiritual and even self-esteem play a part in the totality of women’s security needs.

During the height of a woman’s SMV, men are scarcely aware of their potential value to a woman in the long term. Men’s recognition of dread is much more heightened when a woman’s SMV is peaking, while his is on a slow ascendency toward his late 20’s and early 30’s. He doesn’t want to miss his “dream girl” and she doesn’t want to sell herself short in the hypergamy gamble she’s playing.

As a woman ages to the Wall and beyond, and while a Man’s SMV accumulates into his 30’s, the role soft dread plays in the relationship is reversed. As women’s primary physical attraction decays, the subliminal dread of loss, and an ever decreasing ability to recreate her security, increases in her psyche. It may not be on the surface of her awareness, but there will be more reminders of her state with each passing year.

It seems unduly cruel to remind women of this dread; that’s not my intent with today’s post. In fact, just because I’m aware of the subtle reminders of soft dread women experience, I may play my relationship Game with a bit more sensitivity. That being the case, there’s no ignoring the reality of this dynamic and the utility it represents for a man aware of the state of women in various phases of their lives.

When I wrote Navigating the SMP the operative intent behind it was to make men more conscious of the predictability of women’s motives and behaviors at various phases of life – and plan their Game according to the signs they were seeing. In the case of soft dread, this realization may at first come as a hint of appreciation to the Man who’s dutifully persevered through his woman’s dominant frame for most of his LTR  Marriage. It may come as a comfort for a guy who’s unused to sentimental declarations of appreciation, but it’s important to remember the why in that declaration, rather than the who in that declaration.


112 responses to “Soft Dread

  • GeeBee

    Truer than true. Before unplugging, one of the few things I was keenly aware of in my last LTR was that “true” appreciation only seemed to come when my ex evaluated her own situation in comparison to some other woman’s. +1

  • Hyperion

    “It may come as a comfort for a guy who’s unused to sentimental declarations of appreciation, but it’s important to remember the why in that declaration, rather than the who in that declaration.”

    Great quote. I’ve noticed that women express gratitude for something rather than a gratitude to someone. When she makes a statement like that, she is really just circling back to considering herself and expressing relief that some bad result didn’t happen to her.

    Her statement only mimics the form of a compliment. Left out of her thinking is consideration of, or gratitude to the person who saved her.

    Or:

    Compliment + self-concern – appreciation = women’s compliment

  • Alpha Mission

    Im glad you brought back the comparative SMV graph. I like the personal story too. So when are we getting this book, Rollo?

  • anotheronetakesthepill

    “It seems unduly cruel to remind women of this dread”

    To a lot of us it has become our daily routine when meeting post-wall or near-the-wall woman.

    I’ve even started giving advice to young women. The problem? They get it as: “So you are telling me that I should get together and settle with someone who feels ok, instead of searching for the best one?”

    Settling isn’t an option until later in their life when they realize they had too high standards … and even then they can’t help but let their hamsters run.

    Is there anything similar to female introspection nowadays? Or everything is someone else’s fault.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Alpha, I took a bit of a work sabbatical and I’m devoting most of my time to finishing the book edits and relocating back to Nevada for work this month.

    Should be done mid to late June.

  • Kate

    What a touching post. There’s actually a couple I see at the gym (far older than you two) who always brighten my day just by seeing them. I think we all need reminders from time to time to appreciate what we have, whatever that is. I listen to people complain about trivial things about their spouses and I think in my head, do you know what you *have*? Nice to read this post and glad to hear you are appreciated, Rollo :)

  • Immediate

    Seems like women hampsterize away their SMV position more than ever. It wasn’t that long ago that “the big 3 – 0″ was a major wall for women and “the big 4 – 0″ was more or less end of the line. Even after the sexual revolution of the 60’s/70’s.

    However now, women seem to be less and less outwardly aware of 30 signifying the beginning of the end. Today they start acting like that around 40, and like in this article the true wall is only apparent to them when they are pushing 50. All of this flies in the face of biology of course. It can be hard to break through the rationalization spin and realize that the wall of 30 is still a major shifting point, but it is still there.

  • A Dark Heart

    This ‘soft dread’ you speak of can be expanded to all people: it’s realizing a loss prior to that loss. Or, ‘we rarely appreciate things until they’re gone’. What she experienced – by proxy – is what she might have become had she not appreciated your relationship with her, if that makes sense.

    The most common thing people say on their deathbed or after the loss of a parent is ‘I wish I had loved him/her more’. This is the same thing – a time travel of sorts – but on a smaller scale.

  • earl

    “It may come as a comfort for a guy who’s unused to sentimental declarations of appreciation, but it’s important to remember the why in that declaration, rather than the who in that declaration.”

    I’d like to think my why’s in the declaration are a part of who I am in that declaration.

    Who we are as men is how we act. That’s what women respond to.

  • BC

    I’ve even started giving advice to young women. The problem? They get it as: “So you are telling me that I should get together and settle with someone who feels ok, instead of searching for the best one?”

    Give the poker concept of a “winning hand” and explain that yes, they can discard their current hand in hopes of drawing a better one, but the odds are that they are going to lose the pot.

    If they still don’t get it, just smile, nod and wish them luck.
    You can’t help someone who does not want to be helped.

  • sunshinemary

    First, I don’t understand why everyone gets so up in arms about Dread. Of all the aspects of game, that has always seemed to me like the most straightforward and reasonable. It’s what is known as Reality and Consequences, as I have said before. It is reality that other women want to sleep with your man; it is consequences that he may be tempted to do so if you turn into a fat, frigid bitch. Plan accordingly, ladies.

    Second, reading in the manosphere over the past year has given me the exact same reaction that Mrs. Tomassi had to the lady at the gym; reading about all those bitter 40-something spinsters is like bathing in soft dread. There but for the grace of God and my husband’s benevolence go I. I’ve never been more grateful to my husband nor more motivated to make sure he’s pleased with our marriage.

    Good post. Possibly one of my favorites that you’ve written.

  • Case

    I read these articles and the comments sometimes and think to myself it’s like we are a flippin Hive Mind. I had ALMOST nothing at all to add to the conversation you have all already said it, but SSM’s quip gives me a small one, …

    re: “ading in the manosphere over the past year has given me the exact same reaction that Mrs. Tomassi had to the lady at the gym; reading about all those bitter 40-something spinsters is like bathing in soft dread. There but for the grace of God and my husband’s benevolence go I. I’ve never been more grateful to my husband nor more motivated to make sure he’s pleased with our marriage.”

    … concerning this: what you experienced here and the currency it has given you to make the best of the asset that is your marriage, is the OPPOSITE of what my ex experienced for the ten years of our relationship that led to our divorce.

    And while your remark and this article is refreshing, I would be forced to admit that my ex’s experience seems to remain the standard from among women I’ve crossed paths with since the split.

  • TempestTcup

    I agree with SSM – dread isn’t always bad; sometimes it is just a reminder of what could have been if different decisions had been made.

    Sometimes dread is positive, like if he likes to engage in risky sports, the fear of loss she feels is a positive form of dread that provides tingles galore.

  • sunshinemary

    Case:

    And while your remark and this article is refreshing, I would be forced to admit that my ex’s experience seems to remain the standard from among women I’ve crossed paths with since the split.

    That is possibly because of what Rollo mentioned in the article:

    women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices Men must make to facilitate their feminine reality, but if they ever come close to this appreciation it’s only at the prompting of women outside the relationship who can recognize it in the Men committed to other women.

    I don’t agree with him that we women fundamentally lack this capacity, but we most certainly lack it functionally. Christian women should be able to do better with this because the Bible tells us to have gratitude for our blessings, but we don’t of course. In all likelihood, your woman was simply never in a situation where the soft dread that triggers intense gratitude to one’s husband was activated.

    Rollo:

    It may come as a comfort for a guy who’s unused to sentimental declarations of appreciation, but it’s important to remember the why in that declaration, rather than the who in that declaration.

    Although it seems mercenary, there is some truth to that. However, we are grateful because our husbands have saved us from spinsterhood. So it’s not a “rather than” situation, it’s that we are grateful to him because of what he has done…it’s both the who and the why. I wouldn’t have wanted to be saved from spinsterhood by just any man, ya know?

  • sunshinemary

    In the case of soft dread, this realization may at first come as a hint of appreciation to the Man who’s dutifully persevered through his woman’s dominant frame for most of his LTR Marriage.

    Does this happen in those scenarios, where the woman has been setting the dominant frame? Do such women really respond to soft dread and suddenly turn grateful? And how should such a man respond when she does? My inclination would be that he might use that to flip the frame – his for hers. It could be very useful. Is that what you meant when you wrote this?:

    there’s no ignoring the reality of this dynamic and the utility it represents for a man aware of the state of women in various phases of their lives.

    I think I’m over-commenting, but I do find this interesting.

  • Leo G

    I sit here and read your words, though thoughtful and mostly true, in my world not quite right. My wife turned fifty in February. She is fit, rides horses, is half way through a farrier course (real physical work), and still can look very hot. A friend of my 19 year old son, just this weekend, commented that she looked way younger then fifty. She is not a one off. A lot of our female friends, in their late forties, early fifties are still very high in the SMV. A couple now have boy toys that are 10 – 15 years younger. The reality in my life is that 50 is the new 35 for a lot of woman I know.

    And they know it!

  • Mark Minter

    While I have learned a lot of concepts from this blog, easily one of the most functional is Dread.

    I am actually wrestling with the concept now. I have these tendencies of punctuality and consideration. I think men should do what they say they will do when they say they will do it.

    Yet, as mentioned, I worry it will be taken for granted and not appreciated as a good quality. So I struggle with it.

    When and how do you deliberately instill dread?

    I don’t really have the answers yet. So this post of soft dread is timely for me.

    But I think the key here is that the man must be the man that the alternative of being without him is a negative for the woman.

    Because that I feel is as key as any dread that she would be alone post wall. One comment on a woman’s blog said “Better cats than a loser”.

    But be that as it may. To me, and I say this a lot, Game is as much about self defense as it is a strategy to maximize options.

    So key in any “Dread” program is an awareness on the part of that woman: “You will leave her and you are not reluctant or afraid to do so. And that you are prepared to go.”

    There was a James Caan movie called “Thief” and the theme of the movie was that he felt as if he should live his in a way that he was prepared at any moment, no matter how much he had built it up, to take a fucking match and burn it down.

    I had that attitude for years and then when I stopped having it, when I started protecting it, then the roof came crashing down on me.

    My theme right now, my key theme, in Game writing and theory is this:

    All men are men with options.

    Even the most Omega Omega is still a man with options. When he stands before the most deified Goddess, he is still a man with options.

    That option is to walk away. That no matter how beautiful a woman is, no matter how accomplished, no matter how much she brings to the table, she is still a cost, a liability, a compromise, an aggravation, and she will bring inconvenience, bring grief, bring anger, expense, work, and most of all, stress, biological, chemical, health damaging stress into his life. He is the prize and she is a cost.

    And he maintains that option as long as he breathes, “spiro, possit”. He possesses it from the bitchy first moment that he encounters her, and he continues to possess it, no matter what the financial or legal costs may be. He always has that option.

    And to me the key to Dread then is two fold:

    (1) She is not your life, she is a part of it. There will always be another chapter after her if you choose to go. And there is a strong possibility that it will be better, be it with another woman or be it alone, especially alone. That woman is a burden and you are probably better off without carrying it. Do not let these bullshit stats about life expectancy of married men fool you. If you are with that woman that you will have cortisol in your blood. If you do not have her, once you go through the withdrawal from both, the cortisol and the dopamine, the you can be healthier and content. Happiness is not being unhappy. You will not die without her.

    (3) Selfishly, and I mean selfishly, live your life to protect and enhance that prerogative of leaving. Prepare yourself to leave, have a plan, know how to do it, save money for the impending reality of it. Go to the gym religiously. Stay on top of Game writing. Approach, even though you have no intent of following through. Do as Roosh says, “Approach 1 girl a day”. Even in a relationship, approach.

    Those two actions will help to maintain a significant level of testosterone in your body. And that testosterone is key to maintaining her attraction to you. And more importantly, it counteracts the cortisol. If you do have to go, then you will suffer less of the withdrawal effects from the cortisol if you maintain high levels of testosterone in your body. And you will have more options. The cure for the loss of a woman? A another woman.

    Here is his essay on this. He lists about 10 benefits he has gained from those two, as he calls them, keystone habits, lifting and one approach a day.

    http://www.rooshv.com/one-approach-a-day

    Note this though. There is something I have found called the Winner Effect. It occurs in animals as well as humans. After a competition, the winner of the competition incurs a spike of testosterone. And the stats show they he has a higher possibility of winning a subsequent competition. A this effect builds and carries forward. Even if you have to start out winning with a Fat HB 3, after leaving, it is still a win, and it starts the Winner Effect. You have all read about “breaking a dry spell”. This is the science under it.

    An LTR is like a trip up the side of a mountain on a thin trail that has one side exposed to a steep fall and the other side along the mountain. Trust this, there is strong possibility that woman will push you off that trail. And the longer you are in that LTR then the farther the fall. So always conduct yourself on the trail with that in mind and keep your back protected by the mountain.

    And if you detect behavior, if you have suspicion that she might just shove you off the trail, then you shove her off first. In 50% of marriages and in about 90% of LTRs that go longer than a month, it will be that woman that shoves you off the cliff. So the stats are pretty good that she will. I’d bet on it if I were you,. And the thing you are betting is your life.

    Your body and your job should your first priorities, more important than her. Without either, you will not keep her. And those things are the things that will give you options after her. And statistics are pretty good that there will be an “after her”.

    Roissy had a post on Rapport Vs Attraction. He said that if you lose rapport with her but she still has attraction that this is essence of Dread. She will work to re-establish rapport with you. A relationship doesn’t need rapport.

    But attraction is absolutely essential. And never forget, it not your swell personality, your dependability as a man, your competence, that is the basis of attraction. If you loose attraction then it is over.

    It is your job and your body, the yin and yang of her hypergamy, that are the basis of that attraction.

    So you feed her dread in two manners, by being a man that is hard to replace and by living your life as a man that will throw a match in your life and burn it the fuck down.

    Trust me, brother. She has no problem playing with matches and most likely one day she will burn it down.

    There was a profile of a woman on a dating and in it she said:

    “The smart woman listens but doesn’t believe, kisses but doesn’t love, leaves before she is left”.

    I would say that goes for the smart man also. You are far more in jeopardy because you are man.

    Rollo has mentioned that the idea of Dread is most contentious among readers and the idea of instilling it, of using it is thought to be cruel.

    I say tough shit. Everyday that woman has the option of looking in the mirror and saying to herself that she will treat you in a manner today that will make you stay one more day. It is her choice. And most choose not to do it.

    And if she chooses not to do it, then it is her choice. And you make her pay if she doesn’t.

    The feminine imperative wishes to control and rig the game. Dread is their anxiety that they might be slipping. But reality is, and the statistics say, that it is really the men that should have dread. She is the one that leaves.
    ————
    Note to Rollo, I did not mean to write a follow up to Hail to the V. But I inadvertently did. I was searching for a post to detail the idea of Buffers to someone and I bumped into a Wikipedia entry on “Rollo” and i though it was about you,

    It wasn’t and I started to read that entry and that lead to several others about this particular Rollo. I thought I would write a cute comment about it. And as I kept following the research this Rollo, it brought me right in, surprisingly to Courtly Love, there is quite a connection between this Rollo and Courtly Love. It seems the founders of Courtly Love that I wrote about in Hail To the V are descendants of this Rollo.

    The essay is long as the other. And if you wish I could post it into comments and you could use it as a posting during this busy time. I passed it to someone to read, someone familiar with your blog and the other essay, and they thought it was funny. So let me know if you want it.

  • mikec74

    This post hits on something that I think is endemic to many women (insert obligatory NAWALT) in long-term relationships (some exceptions obviously being a few commenters here) and that is female COMPLACENCY. Unless the woman is directly reminded by comparison there is a tendency to underappreciate the committed relationship she has.

    My first marriage ended and it most definitely was for the best as I think she probably was borderline BPD. Anyways, she left me and then less then a month later wanted me back. It was only not having the relationship that woke her up to what she had. We tried again for about a month, and there was a massive fight where we separated again (all this took place in 2004) and then the divorce papers and process got started, and even then a few months before the divorce was finalized she wanted me back, and I basically told her to hit the road. I actually ran into her years later in 2008 when I was dating my now fiancee, and I could tell she was looking at me with longingly with regret. It was bizarre how much she apparently wanted me when she didn’t have me, but when she had me she didn’t have the wherewithal to appreciate having me.

    So this is something in my mind with my current relationship. Whether you call it “soft dread” or whatever label one wants to slap on it, I do think it is necessary from time to time to instill a reminder so that complacency doesn’t set it. One Game teaching is Be the Prize. I think as the guy you can never stop being the Prize. Tactically, on a day to day basis it can be tricky to send that message, but I think you have to look for opportunities to do so.

    As Roissy and many legitimate psychologists will tell you, the most secure relationships generally result from about a 1-2 point SMV imbalance favoring the Man in the relationship.

    I totally agree with this, and I think I intuitively figured this out before reading it formally. This is really the only way to make female hypergamy work for you.

    It’s been one of the more contentious principles I’ve endorsed, with women tending to revile me for having brought men to the awareness of dread’s uses,

    Ha. Here is something you might find ironic. Obviously, one of the women reviling you is Susan Walsh of HUS who has cast you as a “Dark Triad blogger” (which is I think is cartoonish nonsense term) and an advocate of “Dark Game” and “unethical tactics”. Well, it looks like her ethical foundation might be a bit fuzzy as well. In the newest thread over at HUS, she admits to having sex with a male friend THAT SHE KNEW HAD A GIRLFRIEND

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/05/09/relationshipstrategies/some-men-just-cant-keep-their-monogamy-genes-on/comment-page-3/#comment-206545

    She goes on to state she did absolutely nothing wrong or unethical. As I mentioned in a conversation, I can’t fathom what world this is perfectly ethical behavior but a man spinning plates is unethical. What I’ve deduced is the talk of ethics is basically hogwash, and it is just a rationalization for SMP power dynamics and whether the behavior serves more male interests or female interests. Anyways, I thought you might get a kick out of heads up on that given the heat you’ve taken on the issue of ethics.

  • Leo G

    MM, very timely. I have been training myself for the past 4 months to live as if we shall stay together, but plan, emotionally and physically, to be prepared to leave, if she does act on her hamster’s wailing.

    Sorta like act locally, but think globally.

  • Bobb Dobbs

    Sort of only distantly related to this post, but related in general to female divorce … we all know that females initiate 70% of hetero divorces. I just came across a 2004 Swedish study of lesbian divorce rates — 300% higher than heteros. Surprisingly gay (male) divorce rates were only 150% higher than heteros. That 70% initiation rate by females has always been attributed to men behaving badly. But when two females are involved the rate triples!

  • kios

    There is a woman at my work who is 40 and looks it. She hit the wall hard after years of partying, drinking, late nights, bad diet etc etc. But she still flirts with all the men, including younger ones, just to reassure herself that she still has it, and must of us go along with in the spirit of politeness, workplace harmony, and in a few cases, the possibility of getting an easy fuck; she was a major slut in her day. She has alpha widow written all over her.

    Anyway, the other day i mentioned how most of the well established men in their 30’s and 40’s that i know date younger women, i could feel her heart sink right there and then; it wiped the smile right off her face. This woman is exhibit A. In her prime shw had her choice in men, and now she either has to ‘settle’ or just accept pumps and dumps, which she apparently doesn’t want.

    Years ago i would have felt sorry for her, but the red pill changed all that.

  • Days of Broken Arrows

    Over at Roosh’s we’ve been lamenting the way Facebook has turned a lot of average women into attention-whores and because of that made “5s think they’re 9s.”

    This post opened my eyes to the fact that there might be a negative side to women being on Facebook after all: it might also have the effect on women that this receptionist had on Mrs. Rollo. I have scads of older single female friends whose every post is either whining or screaming about some man — and sometimes it’s man after man, week after week. This has to have some effect on getting women to appreciate what they do have, because these women seem to live in a state of total dread.

    I hate to do this, but here are some examples (truncated so the guilty parties hopefully won’t notice):

    “Look dude, I’m not gonna be your arm candy to impress your associates…”

    “My hearts on my sleeve but it’s turning black…”

    “No date for my birthday…thanks to time wasted on a psycho…”

    And this is in between all those “memes” women post with sayings like “The best way to hang up on someone is…” Etc. It seems to me only women spew forth these constant streams of drama on FB, and I assume women have to notice this too. If men supposedly take being single worse than women (according to some recent articles), then why do they mostly post about sports, music, and jokes and leave the women to go insane in public?

  • Andrews

    All this dread reminds me of Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

    About women –

    “…
    Concerning woman, one should only talk unto men.

    In your [women] love let there be valour! With your love shall ye assail him who inspireth you with fear!

    In your love be your honour! Little doth woman understand otherwise about honour. But let this be your honour: always to love more than ye are loved, and never be the second.

    Let man fear woman when she loveth: then maketh she every sacrifice, and everything else she regardeth as worthless.
    Let man fear woman when she hateth: for man in his innermost soul is merely evil; woman, however, is mean.
    …”

    @Days of Broken Arrows.

    It might but someone once said – “There are more naive men than women.”
    Women are very smart when dealing with other women (and men) they aren’t the ‘romantic’ ones. They always question motives and think about personal gains. They may not say it but I imagine they smell desperation and misery behind such comments from other women. More so than men would suspect.

  • krauserpua

    “During this phase the potential for replacing a respective mate (or STR lover) is almost a nonissue.”

    While this is true on a macro level, I think it’s quite easy to remove with some Game. The primary value a man gives a woman is how he makes her feel. Much Game theory is written for the “average guy” and fits his situation. A huge part of Game is to make yourself the best offer a girl will get (in terms of how she’ll feel, not by being a chump and paying the highest price to win her).

    When you deep convert a girl you shatter her normal reference system. She doesn’t see you as “a guy”, she sees you as “the only guy” and she can’t imagine life outside your reality. This brings dread right back into her life.

    But fundamentally, for most men and women, yes this post is spot on.

  • Ton

    I listen to women complain about trivial things regarding men and think, never again. The latest was listening to a woman talk up her ex husband and some ex boyfriends while never praising her current husband. The nice beta guy who was raising her thug spawn and keeping her in a 4000 square foot McCain mansion got 0 mention. It was a good teachable moment for my kids.

    Not sure when I heard a group of women praise the men in their life. Woman claim to be more then living sex dolls, but they rarely behave in such a way which deserves better consideration

  • Stingray

    Not sure when I heard a group of women praise the men in their life.

    You cannot do this in a group of women as the other women see it as bragging and self promotion. It is a direct insult to her and her life to praise one’s own husband. Not bad mouthing one’s husband is also noticed. It’s a bit bizarre.

    However, we are grateful because our husbands have saved us from spinsterhood. So it’s not a “rather than” situation, it’s that we are grateful to him because of what he has done…it’s both the who and the why.

    Not only from spinsterhood, but from having to be the leader or wear the pants in the family. What happened to Rollo recently happened to my husband and I. We were at a big sporting even with our kids and all around us were men being bossed around by their wives. The tone of their voices was appalling and the men just went along to get along. As I witnessed this, I thanked my husband for who he is how he loves us. He is the leader and I am free to be the helper. Thank God. His choice to do that has saved me more from just spinsterhood, but from a life of resentment, anger and confusion from (poorly) leading a family I was never meant to lead. I realize that he is not only saving me, but our whole family.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @MikeC, good christ, I just read Aunt Giggles self-evincing pityfuck story at your link. If anyone had doubts about my assertion that HUS exists solely as her daily catharsis all they need to do is read that thread.

    I love how suddenly I’m the guy appreciating the emotional investment my wife has in me, and she the one recounting and magnanimously rationalizing a pity fuck she “didn’t want to have.” The irony writes itself.

    With every post she only further proves my points about her. I can hardly wait till she completely snaps and throws all of her pretense out the window. Give it time, it’ll happen.

  • deti

    @ SSM:

    “First, I don’t understand why everyone gets so up in arms about Dread. Of all the aspects of game, that has always seemed to me like the most straightforward and reasonable.”

    Well, “everyone” is not up in arms about Dread. About the only ones commenting around these parts about the “evils” and “unethical behavior” of Dread are Susan Walsh and her commenters at HUS. Susan says she doesn’t like Dread because it’s “unethical” and dishonest. It’s become apparent to me she disdains Dread (i.e. “consequences”) because it puts men in the power position in a relationship, and allows men a way to get what they want from their relationships. Susan doesn’t like Dread because it would require that her focus groupers and commenters compromise and give of themselves so as to provide the men in their relationships with incentive to invest and commit. This stands in the way of Game being used as a tool to make men more attractive so they can serve as dates, boyfriends and husbands for women who want them.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Oh, I dunno Deti, I think after comments like this Giggles might finally be coming around about dread:

    I’m sorry to break it to you, but a very large number of relationships end because one party finds someone they like better. Females routinely compete for their mates, and must continue to compete to keep their mates.

    True to form, I’m sure she’ll change her mind about applied Dread, and just like Solipsism and Hypergamy she’ll rewrite it to sound as if she’d endorsed Dread all along.

  • deti

    And here’s how SW hamsterized it. Someone called her out:

    “Helping someone else cheat on their partner was a horrid thing to do.”

    Susan rationalized it away, because hey, she was unattached. He might have been a douche, but she was morally clean:

    “Psshhh. I don’t buy it. The moral responsibility belongs entirely to the person who’s committed. I feel that same way about people who have affairs with married folks. They’re stupid, but not morally wrong.

    “I didn’t know or care about his gf. Why should I make a choice based on her needs?”

    Hamsterlation: “If it serves my interests, it’s ethical. I don’t care about anyone else’s interests.”

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/05/09/relationshipstrategies/some-men-just-cant-keep-their-monogamy-genes-on/comment-page-3/#comment-206707

  • deti

    Yeah, Rollo, she seems to be OK with men applying Dread as a last resort tactic to restore stability to an LTR that the woman destabilized. Where she has an “ethical” problem is men gaslighting their women; openly flirting for the sole purpose of DHV; cheating or ONSing to DHV; running head games; and lying about intentions or other relationships/sex partners;

  • deti

    Or, being deliberately evasive, ambivalent or refusing to disclose other relationships/sex partners.

  • Kate

    mike: “It was bizarre how much she apparently wanted me when she didn’t have me, but when she had me she didn’t have the wherewithal to appreciate having me.” This one crosses gender lines and is Oh so deceiving! There is no going/looking back, in my mind. Onward, onward, always. In some small cases the person truly realizes they made a mistake and wants to change. In most cases, they only ever want what they can’t have.

    I think the need to instill dread is relative to the woman’s age and experience. The single most life-affecting experience of my life was my ex-husband coming home one day to tell me he had cancer. I don’t need dread to know things can change from one instant to another. Or, as in the case of people who cut off contact online, one moment a person is there, maybe even making promises to you, and the next they are gone for whatever the reason (or lack thereof). All you ever have is the current moment so its best to ‘make friends with Now’ as Tolle describes.

    I think its important for each side not to completely revolve around the other person. It creates too much pressure that is bound to lead to a crack. Nobody likes dread because it doesn’t feel good, but its a necessary reminder now and again. The criticism of it is probably when its overdone. But, really, if one finds themself needing to use dread and threats to maintain a relationship all the time, it is probably a sign of more problems to come.

  • Kate

    “Psshhh. I don’t buy it. The moral responsibility belongs entirely to the person who’s committed. I feel that same way about people who have affairs with married folks. They’re stupid, but not morally wrong.

    “I didn’t know or care about his gf. Why should I make a choice based on her needs?”

    Eyeyiyi! WRONG! The moral consequence applies to all involved. The committed person has the responsibility to diclose if they are married. Perhaps that is what she meant. If someone keeps information from you, you are innocent in the sense that you didn’t know, but you are still culpable. When I have figured out someone has lied to me about themselves in some way, the first thing I do is a background check to make sure they didn’t lie about being unmarried as I have no intention of blackening my soul in such a way. I didn’t come this far to mess up now. And its expensive! *sigh* Modern dating :(

  • Kate

    @Stingray: Yes, there is always an expectation to be negative about anything. People who spend all their time complaining obviously have nothing else to say. A women’s forum I’ve rejoined started a practice way back of posting daily messages of gratitude, why we *love* men, and a “gushing” thread for those people whose cup was running over. Its fun to be happy! :)

  • Glenbert

    My ex was constantly worried that I would cheat on her. Having been a bit of a cad in my early 20s, I could honestly say I was over it and was very committed to “settling down” but her paranoia continued.

    I say paranoia and not dread purposefully here because other than accuse me of cheating on her, she did nothing to ensure that I didn’t.

    You can see where this is going.

    She, of course, cheated on me and gas-lighted me into believing that our relationship was legitimately breaking down (not because of any outside influence). I reminded her that, at 32, she was going to have a tough time starting over.

    “Trust me, I’ll do just fine. Trust me.”

    And that bit of hamster-bation is what tipped me off and lead me to eventually discover the truth. I kicked her out and 2 weeks later she was begging for another chance. She hadn’t realized that she was a pump-n-dump until it all came to light and then the dread started to seep in. But it was too late.

    My point? Don’t mistake paranoia–a delusion that can unwind a relationship–for dread, a valuable tool in the arsenal of LTR game.

  • Martel

    Much of the problem with facebook, smartphones, Sex & the City culture, and all the rest is that it kills the sense of soft dread in high SMV women. In all of human history, I doubt women in their peak years have had as many constant reminders of their high value. Also, instead of being reminded of the Wall, the media keeps promoting the lie that there is no Wall at all.

    Not only is the peak higher than it’s ever been, they’re continually told that it will last longer than it ever has.

    And every time I tell a woman that the Wall will someday come, she comes back with “Halle Berry! Jennifer Aniston! Salma Hayek!”, as if the top .5% of women will of course be them.

    Hence the extreme lack of gratitude among younger women today, and the intense bitterness once they learn that their ship has passed.

  • Candide

    On the subject of women appreciating their men, I’ve been writing to some of my female cousins and family friends that I haven’t seen for 3-5 years. They live overseas and I’m about to do some travelling to their countries. They have married well, their husbands are loaded and allow them to stay home to look after the children and play with their fun side business. I was lazy, so I copied & pasted the same email with names changed. I asked the same standard question “How’s the family?”

    It has to be a crazy coincidence that every single one of them responds to that by telling me about themselves, their kids and things they’ve been doing together, yet absolutely nothing about their husbands. It’s like those blokes don’t exist. Surely at least one of them would have liked to brag about their man to another man? And yes before you ask, all those blokes are beta to the core, I’ve met the lot before.

  • sunshinemary

    @ deti
    No, it’s not just at HUS. I have heard gentlemen say on both my site and others that they use game but not dread. And I’m like, why not? If that is the tool that is called for, use it. That’s like saying, “I have a tool set, but I never use the hammer because I heard of a guy who killed someone with a hammer once.”

    I wouldn’t consider actual cheating dread game, though, would you? Cheating, if you’ve agreed to be monogamous, is seriously unethical and in many cases will cause the demise of the relationship if discovered. The same with lying about intentions. That isn’t dread game so much as such being smarmy. Even if a man isn’t in a committed relationship, there really isn’t any reason to become a liar. Someone who has to resort to direct lies in order to get laid clearly has poor game.

  • sunshinemary

    Hey, nice story you linked to there, Rollo, of Susan sleeping with other women’s boyfriends!

    Anyone remember Susan’s recent words to me? Something about not being able to respect a woman who stays with a man who has cheated on her?

    Interesting.

    Apparently she is not only rude, but she has a hamster the size of Manhattan and is a whore to boot.

  • bob

    “I am actually wrestling with the concept now. I have these tendencies of punctuality and consideration. I think men should do what they say they will do when they say they will do it.

    Yet, as mentioned, I worry it will be taken for granted and not appreciated as a good quality. So I struggle with it.

    When and how do you deliberately instill dread? ”

    If you are a Quality Man­™, you will instil dread without knowing it, simply because you are rare and demanded. Being punctual, kind, polite, honest, those are not weaknesses, but it’s true that they are regarded as such sometimes. The problem is, kindness on its own doesn’t work. You need kindness AND power. What power is I leave for you to define (money, charisma, honesty, work ethic, moral values, game, fame, etc). Power alone will get you pussy, definitely, but power + kindness will get you the Holy Pussy and a pretty enjoyable life overall. I think it used to be called “being a Man”, or something like that.

    This goes way beyond Game and girls. You need power to protect your family, your company, your friends. Not because these people are greedy and want to feed on your energy, but because some fuckers out there will try to take advantage of you. This kind of people exist. What do you do when some dude twice your size grabs you and wants to destroy you? You’re fucked. That’s why you owe to yourself to be in decent shape. What do you do when your boss tries to fuck you through legal terms? You’re most probably fucked. That’s why you make sure you have a solid contract.

    Shit happens, we all know that. But very few people take actions to make it MUCH less likely to happen. Understanding those social dynamics, where is power, how to control it, to protect yourself and your family from it, and even how to own it, are important steps towards reclaiming your title of Man. For an example of an honest man with very little power (temporal power, that is), see a somewhat famous guy called Jesus.

  • Ton

    Nor do I see women walk away from such bitch fest.

    Actions over words. If women are capable of these things, why do men so rarely see it? Why do women not walk away from the hen party? Or refuse to engage?

  • Joe Blow

    Dread Game is a hammer, but hammers come in a lot of shapes and sizes, ranging from sledges you bust up concrete with, to the little rubber ones doctors use to test reflexes. My wife is my age – mid-40’s – and she has a lot of single women friends in their mid-30’s to 50, and I use them as a reflex hammer once in a while. My wife’s friends are all insane (IMAO), with massive hamsters and bad attitudes. They are *so* desparate for men, but also very vocal about how men suck. They can’t get through a cocktail party or cookout without trying to heavily flirt with me, and I don’t doubt for a second I could get a roll with any of them that I wanted, but I won’t go there (if you’re going to shitcan your marriage for a new girl, make it an upgrade, not a downgrade to a bitter 40 year old re-tread). Their flirting bugs my wife a bit, and then when they depart, I ramp it up a bit with some humorous Dread Game.

    – Gosh honey, your friend Lisa is fun and almost cute, and I’d introduce her to some of my single friends, but I don’t have any friends whose goal in life is running a no-kill cat shelter.

    – It was nice having Joan over, but I have to say, I’m glad you’re not all crazy like her. That attitude she’s got from all the guys who dumped her can’t be helping her with the speed dating thing.

    – Hey, that was nice you invited Kim over. What ever happened to that dude in New Orleans she was internet dating, you know, the one she met on Match.com?

    I say these things in a way that makes it pretty clear I’m joking around and mocking her idiot friends (which almost makes me like a girlfriend, right, to dish on the girls?) and my wife always gets a big laugh out of them then gives me a hug. Mission Accomplished.

  • deti

    @ SSM:

    “I wouldn’t consider actual cheating dread game, though, would you?”

    Cheating isn’t dread, though it can have the same effects as dread. Dread is “I haven’t cheated, but I’m letting you know I could if I wanted to.” Cheating is follow through on the implied threat.

    “The same with lying about intentions. That isn’t dread game so much as such being smarmy. ”

    that’s just being a cad.

  • Stingray

    Why do women not walk away from the hen party? Or refuse to engage?

    Because waling away means you have passed judgement. Passing judgement means that feelings are hurt and if you hurt their feelings you are rejected from the group. Refusing to engage is easier, but then you are just considered boring or uppity. It’s herd mentality. When the herd is toxic, it spreads poison because disengaging is incredibly difficult. I am of the opinion that women need a herd. However, she has the choice of the toxic herd of girl world or her man. I think 7 Man coined the phrase Term Her Man? Isn’t that what he is talking about there? One’s husband can be her herd and it is a far, far better place.

  • Ton

    I don’t do dread myself unless you count be cool or be gone dread game.

  • deti

    SSM:

    What’s going on over at HUS is beyond ridiculous. It appears she has completely repudiated even the “purple” pill, and has gone full on “I’m on board with whatever serves women’s interests”.

    All the talk of “ethics” and “intent” is just a smokescreen so women’s interests can be advanced at the expense of men.

  • itsme

    It was truly a mission of mercy.

    we should nominate you for sainthood, susan.

    what’s the patron saint of lotsa cockas?

  • itsme

    Apparently she is not only rude, but she has a hamster the size of Manhattan and is a whore to boot.

    that’s being a little harsh. that was back in college. it wasn’t real. it didn’t mean anything. she’s not that kind of girl any more.

  • Kaii

    This is a great post! The idea of dread is a good one, however, I am finding that I don’t want to even bother with it anymore. The more “un-plugged” I become, the less interested I am in navigating dating and all its bullshit. Maybe that feeling will go away, we’ll see.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    The more “un-plugged” I become, the less interested I am in navigating dating and all its bullshit. Maybe that feeling will go away, we’ll see.

    NEO: What are you trying to tell me, that I can dodge bullets?

    MORPHEUS: No Neo. I’m trying to tell you that when you’re ready, you won’t have to.

  • Ton

    Women prefer the herd over showing basic consideration and respect toward a man, including a man who rescued a whore and her thug speak, which is why women stay in the live sex doll category

    It’s not that I expect better behavior from women. However, if they cannot behave any better toward men, they should not get any better treatment from men.

    Why would any rational man invest in women behaving in such a fashion?

  • Stingray

    Women prefer the herd over showing basic consideration and respect toward a man

    Ton, a woman cannot feel respect for a man who puts her above himself. Should she behave respectful anyway? Yes. Of course. But if she doesn’t feel it for the man, she will feel the respect for the herd that is above her. Without guidance, feelings win. Woman can behave better. Few are teaching them how. The few who are are drowned out by whatever reality show is currently popular.

  • TLM

    @Rollo

    I’ve never understood why VD links HUS. Susan is just another fatty feminist in a country full of them with nothing productive to offer men.

    And with regards to the gym secretary, 49 is likely why she seems moderately level-headed. Once they hit 50 they become bitter shrews or bat shit crazy cat women.

  • Ton

    I understand Stingray. It affects all my interactions with women. Even the most pathetic beta can do a woman serious physical harm if he so chooses. A wise woman would show men respect for that alone. In this case the man rescued her and her thug spawn. His reward? A woman who shows no consideration for him. None of the 4 should an ounce of respect for the men who were financing their lifestyle. Nor did they show one once of shame when I called them on it. As a side note, I won’t be invited back to any more funerals…

    I myself cannot hold women in regard because they do not routinely demonstrate the basics of decent human behavior.

    What you are trying to do is excuse the inexcusable.

  • William

    One reason people don’t like Dread because people don’t the idea of not having control over themselves.
    You’ll see this when decisions of what people can do to attract a mate come up.
    Some responses will be questioning as to why, they should have to do anything.

  • Stingray

    Not excuse it, Ton. Simply explain it. My hope is that understanding it can lead to change of that inexcusable behavior, at least for some.

  • anotheronetakesthepill

    I would say that once you need to use dread (the hard version of it) the relationship is heading south.

    With my last girlfriend we were 3 months into the relationship when she started feeding me BS of she not being ready for a relationship, of me waiting for her some years, etc. I knew what that was about and told her: “If that’s what you think the relationship is over right now”. You can guess how she flipped it in the passive/aggresive way: “You want to get rid of me. Don’t make a decision cause I haven’t made one yet”.

    Being wise (but not as much as I am now) I gave her the cold shoulder for some days. Her reaction was to shower me with attention sending pictures via email of us together plus a romantic song and then accusing me of having changed and that I didn’t seemed interested in her any longer. You see what she did there right? I saw it later when reading blogs like this and understanding better the nature of women. She was just checking if my feelings for her were still there. And they were.

    Some months later it ended for good. When that happened I confronted her and told her: “I should have dumped you back then when you had doubts”. Her answer was: “I wouldnt have allowed it. Cause I don’t allow a relationship to end UNTIL I KNOW WHAT I WANT out of it”.

    The scarcity mentality made me understimate her doubts on us. With hindsight I should have kicked her to the curb back then cause we all need someone who is 100% into us. But hey, that’s why we are here. To learn.

  • Ton

    The only consistently successful behavior modification tools are fear, pain and suffering

    Perhaps an explanation will help men adjust their behavior but it will do next to nothing in adjusting women’s behavior. Men would be better off adapting an attitude of amusement and disdain towards women. Which ever is required at the time

    I spend 0 effort in trying to save relationships. Not enough return on the investment of time and effort. Did it once, won’t make the mistake again.

  • Missy

    Damn that chart IS accurate

    I agree that there is alway one who “loves” more in a relationship and this seems to me that it is usually the female. Thus providing men with the “power”.

    However, this in no way diminishes that the man DOES love the woman as well.

    From observational research I’ve also found/noticed that often after many years of marriage this “one who loves more thing” or rather the “power” shifts. It becomes the woman who has more power the longer a couple is together.

    You totally just gave me a sort of epiphany as to why!!

    So, in the beginning the men have more power because they often have more options or just simply bc that’s the way it is. A woman is (usually) a people pleaser by nature. The nuturer, especially when it comes to her man.

    Over time the man falls in love with that BEHAVOIR. He no longer wants to be alone, he enjoys coming home to a hot meal and a kiss on the cheek. He like the attention. He values the loyalty and after 10-15 years (the couple making it past the “7 year itch” he realizes or finds her value enhanced. Yes she is older. Looks may have declined as has SMV, however so has he and so has his.

    She likely has provided him with children so his bio fixation of a woman w young rips eggs diminishes. Having the attentions of someone he KNOWS he can trust is more pleasing an idea than being single and having to weed through the BS.

    So, by default the woman has in a way gained “the power”. She may still love more but it is bc of that love and the nature of women to be doting, loyal and loving to men they truly adore that leads to the script flip.

    Wow, I saw the switch before but never “got it”. He becomes dependent on her love. And while maybe he still cares less he needs her more.

    Not to say she doesn’t still need him, but by this time he has met many of her bio needs. Provided her with children, reared them to an age they can care for themselves, he has been a protector and given shelter. If she is a working women this loss of need for him grows while his need grows.

    Unfucking believable… I think I may have to examine this further!

    Thanks man for … Helping me “see the light” about this. I’d like to hear your thoughts…

    I know this strays a bit from the thesis of the post and I agree with what you wrote as well (even if as a single gal who just “hit the wall” may not love it). But something you said made something click for me and that is awesome.

  • Tampa

    Check out this profile of this chick I saw on Match.com. Almost hilarious how it hits on every point this blog has noted.

    -Turned down marriage proposal from a beta (check)
    -Suffers from alpha window sydrome (check)
    -Still contends she is as hot as she was when she was 27 (check)
    -Worried about missing her chance to land a quality man (Check)
    -Self esteem is too high (check)
    -Still wants kids but doesn’t realize it’s too late (check)
    -Won’t settle (check)
    -Has hit the wall but doesn’t know it yet (check)
    -Will find it easy finding men to bone her to keep esteem high (check)
    -Can’t find committment from a man she deems “quality” (check)

    I read this profile and think “this chick is pretty hot, but it’s so easy to see the obvious reasons why she is still single.

    http://www.match.com/profile/showProfile.aspx?uid=0SGOMzOHtxF4KVyVd3llVg==&handle=CEB_310&tp=NES&pn=1&rn=4&do=2&lid=18

  • Missy

    Oh my friends the dread is real. I assure you. It hit me like a ton of bricks 6 mos before my 30th bday.

    Two things I wanna say.

    1. I truly was not ready or felt compelled as most women, most of my friends were at 23-25 at finding or even accidentally finding their now spouses. If it had been something that happen great but I disdained the pick up scene, I was really still very uncomfortable in my own skin and filled with fear of “letting someone in” (who knows why I’m done psychoanalyzing, at this stage what’s the friggen point?)

    All these things not only made the thought of committing myself to a man for life (bc I do value the sanctity of marriage at it being a life long commitment) scared the shit out of me. What If I made a mistake? What if my lack of self awareness led to my being blinded and poor decision making. And how can I let someone into my heart when I feel so.. Insecure?

    2. Time passes, we grow we get jobs, feel validated for different reasons, become complete. I guess for most women it happens earlier (~3 years then it did for me). It sucks. It just does.

    3. Age 27. I hit it, I was ready. Yay!

    4. I met men. I didn’t see a future with them. Then I met one at 28 that… I could possibly see a future with. Mistake.

    5. Two things I wish I’d known when I was younger. Why didn’t anyone tell me that I HAD to find a man when I was 24? Or else lose my chance to ever have one, its like no one said anything. No one … Warned me! I don’t know it would have made a difference and if it did j would have ended up w a beta (as I likely/am told will if I do marry now) due to my insecurities at the time. And it was a huge mistake to waste my last two last chance years on someone that didn’t really love or trust or that I wasted all that time trying to figure out if it could work w this sociopathic teetotaler. Lesson learned. Act fast. If your still having doubts 2 mos in, get out. Fucked up there. Now I’m past the wall and filled with the dread – which btw – sooo not sexy. It alone decreases my value, the fear and lack of confident is not exactly a turn on!

    Now. In regard to “assholes” and “nice guy”. I… Find these terms inaccurate. Alphas can tottttalllly be nice. I know many who are some of the beat, kind hearted men I’ve met. And nice guys, after years of rejection are actually not so nice. Bitter and resentful they become kinda mean

    Confident men vs insecure men. I see that as the real.. What is considered alpha vs beta.

    I’ve had this idea for a while but it didn’t really hit me till recently. I met a total “gamer” or rather a confident self aware man who attracted women w his awareness of what they wanted to gain their adoration. He was a really good at heart guy and any women who ends up with him will be very lucky and not bc of of his wealth status or looks, bc he is a good man who respects women and people in general. Just something I kinda came into, realized. Nice.. Is not being quiet, it’s.. Who you are, alpha/beta is not a factor in the true nature of a man.

    Feel free to disagree, I don’t mind.

  • Chef xerxes

    This is every man’s dream. A 49-year-old well past her expiration date.

  • earl

    “Why didn’t anyone tell me that I HAD to find a man when I was 24?”

    Everybody has been brainwashed.

  • Missy

    Brainwashed?

    No one told me NOT to secure a beta I wasn’t really into because I may not have any options left later.

    They didn’t tell me to go on a rabid man hunt before deer season was up (my mother did say that I was not ready when I was younger, as I stated I felt, but at around 27 I was and should “get a boyfriend”, which again was what I felt too. I made a mistake on the person not the timeline IMHO).

    No woman in my family was married before 30, it wasn’t something I was exposed to. My friends’ parents were older too.

    So maybe it’s THIS generation regressing. I dunno. Brainwashed?

    Um, Earl, would it be terribly rude/hamstery/feminist of me to point out something I see as kind of… Ahem… Well, I say “nobody told me”, where in the semantics of that do you read brainwashing? Doesn’t brainwashing include being TOLD something?

  • Glenbert

    Her blog is called Hooking Up SMART. Forget the morality for a second. Hooking up with people who have significant others who may go apeshit and complicate your life, even just a little bit, is anything but smart.

    I’ve thought she looked like buffoon in her avatar, but now I know that the contents of that book match the cover.

  • Ton

    Alphas are assholes, as weak people use the term these days. chicks just see past it. Hamster at work

  • Missy

    K, gonna take a last… attempt to understand what the heck you guys, want, believe whatever and them I’m just tossing this thing (actually the post is quite good and full of substance, it’s been the comments that are riddled with – words – just words, much of which contradict themselves to the point I am left to believe they are said for the sole purpose of putting a sub-type of person down, for the sake of arguing, to just BE angry with angry words.)

    Alphas are assholes, betas are weak.

    That’s it. What about the low paid construction worker w a receding hairline that is a jerk? He an “alpha”, a prize women swoon over? And the confident but shy fella that likes opera instead of basketball, is good looking and well paid, but holds the door open for a lady. He repels women?

    Do alphas then become betas when they marry? Or just wife beaters?

    Just trying to understand.

    The alpha in a pack of wolves is “top dog”. Literally. He is confident and capable. A leader. But he also holds the respect of his pack. He makes the tough decisions, who to leave behind bc they are holding the pack back, but he mentors the ones who are not living up to their potential bc he knows they are of value. He has the respect of his troop. He leads. He is a firm, confident leader. He is not an asshole. If he was, the pack would eventually turn on him. Like seaman on a ship when their captain stops being captain, is drunk on his own power and becomes … An asshole.

    … Men. Always black and white. So you think.

  • FuriousFerret

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Actually if you really want to simplify the Alpha/Beta thing it’s simply:

    Alpha – man hot women want and do fuck

    Beta – man who hot women do not want to fuck

    So if you are the most flaming herb that wears coke bottle glasses, talks with a wisp, physique with a huge pot belly combined with puny muscles and somehow, someway most hot chicks want to fuck him, then he’s an alpha male.

    It’s just that there are certain universal patterns that we recognize as alpha behavior that provide a baseline and blueprint to fuck with the female psyche. You would have to be stupid to ignore what thousands upon thousands of men report works with women.

    ‘And the confident but shy fella that likes opera instead of basketball, is good looking and well paid, but holds the door open for a lady.”

    The problem with this guy is usually he has a feminized mindset that will eventually disgust the woman he’s with. The real issue is your monkey hindbrain. While this man should be a high value man, when he acts like a low value man by acting as your equal or shudder your inferior, your monkey brain doesn’t give a fuck about his culture, money or manners, all it sees a pussy that supplicates to a woman. Your biology is to blame. It simply hates men that act submissive to women. No matter how much that goes against what you want it to be, it’s still the truth.

    I have seen too many good looking men with their shit together be loathed by their wives/girlfriends. They rationalize it that it’s because he’s not giving her enough attention or doing some annoying habit. However, the cold hard reality is because he’s behaving according to his feminist programming and she hates him for it. You can’t just simply say to nature ‘Hey Fuck You and your millions of years of biological programming’. Nature will just laugh at your foolishness.

    ‘The alpha in a pack of wolves is “top dog”. Literally. He is confident and capable. A leader. ‘

    All of this is for naught when that same leader comes home to his wife and bends to her will. With ‘Leaders of Men’ you can definitely be alpha in one context and beta as well. Women will want to fuck you due to your status, etc but eventually they will want to stop when they are repulsed by his submissive behavior. This happens all the time to guys that get betaized due to marriage.

  • Missy

    Oh my ferret friend, thank you. THAT makes sense. And yes, I hate an overly polite doting dude, especially early on (mainly bc I think they are full of shit, reek of desperation and have no idea what they want, put me on a pedestal AFTER you know me, then I’m all for the princess treatment, till then… slow your role dude).

    I still think the shy ones or being “shy” doesn’t equate betaness. Being aloof is.. sexy, it is for women and for men. That guy sitting there, alone, but not embarrassed about it, looking out into the crowd (like the Great Gatsby) knowing what he has and no desire to shout it from the rooftops.

    I have seen, heck I was, a woman who pulled the come up to that shy loner and hit on him (ok I didn’t do that, he hit on me, I just was the one to make the.. crucial moves). Women have literally, on more than one occasion, wo every spoken a word to him, come up and said things like “hi, do you want to hook up tonight?” or even grosser, ” hi, my husband is away, I am lonely, want to come to my hotel room and watch me finer myself?” – THIS IS A TRUE STORY. He has that vibe. Innocence wo being ostentatious, content in just knowing he is the shit.

    He also know he is amazing in bed and is totally comfortable with his sexuality, is not shy in bed and has a massive cock

    But he is shy, and sweet and a GREAT human being. He will give, he will hold the door for you, he will spend time w you when sex is not the prerogative.

    I just think alpha means confidence and self awareness. not being afraid to show women and men that you are THAT awesome. Do you have to be a dick too? I don’t get that.

    Women wanna fuck me who APPEAR they have value. That give that vibe and that vibe comes from complete, authentic, real confidence and self awareness

    I cant believe otherwise, I know too many nice guy/Alpha hybrids and too many asshole/beta jack haters (some may even be in this very comment section!)

  • Case

    SSM,
    re: “I don’t agree with him that we women fundamentally lack this capacity, but we most certainly lack it functionally.”

    couple thoughts on that.
    I am most able to get on board with what Rollo says about this when I identify with the idea that most men seem to think about a woman and a woman’s love the way Christians are taught to think about Christ and Christ’s love. I recall attending a church ages ago and kind of attuning to that and even thinking that they were perfectly conscious of it and were basically trying to remedy the defect by offering Christ as a legitimate replacement who is actually capable of doing what the flock was presumed to be longing for a romantic partner to do.

    And it is REALLY easy for me to imagine that your average Joe, beta Joe, or AFC Joe, whatever you want to call Beppo, basically really thinks that: that there is A woman who is going to complete and fulfill him thank you Tom Cruise John Cusack and Peter Gabriel.

    But Christianity, and/or culture – seems capable of remedying that. If its Christians teaching their children from toddlerhood about godshaped voids only Jesus can feel, fine. I teach my kids no one makes them happy until they decide they are. Si deus dat sensum, ita homines.

    And equally … and basically agreeing to your contention: “Christian women should be able to do better with this because the Bible tells us to have gratitude for our blessings, but we don’t of course.” … we can teach women to value and appreciate their men and their husbands. We don’t. And, we do the opposite: we teach women and encourage women to devalue and denigrate and resent their men and their husbands.

    In that respect – this is a great article. If I knew a woman, almost any woman, and she could and would read one and only one article from all of RM, it would be this one – and the earlier she read it the better.

  • DeCode

    Missy; Your hamster is about to have a heart attack.

  • Arcbound

    @Missy

    When a man is deemed alpha any action he takes is seen in a favorable light by women. The opposite for a beta man. If he’s alpha and nice you get “oh he’s a genuinely great human being”, but if beta and nice “he is a creep doing it for sex.

    This is how a woman’s hamster works. Get the results first, induce a feeling or impression or even just fvck ger good in her and then she will backwards rationalize everything to fit according to that.

  • Arcbound

    *Even just fvck her good

  • gregg

    @ markminter

    “It is your job and your body, the yin and yang of her hypergamy, that are the basis of that attraction.”

    true. you are basically a tool – you have an engine and design. this is the key insight into interaction with women.there is no NEED to instill dread. Dread is just the tool of a weak man to prove that he is still usefull tool for his master (woman).

  • deti

    Rollo:

    Fascinating. Susan’s new post “Tough Talk about Sexual Market Value” is actually a pretty good post in which she advises young women to focus not on SMV but on MMV. It’s actually sound advice.

    But then Susan ends it with this:

    “The silver lining is that if you work hard to increase your MMV, you may be able to punch above your SMV weight, which is what I managed to do regularly before I was married. For that reason, I’d recommend putting all your energy into Girl Game first, and compromise later if necessary.”

    Translation: Work hard to make yourself as marriageable as possible because if you do, you might be able to do what I did which was date really attractive guys who wouldn’t marry me or who I knew weren’t the best for me. Then later you can get married to the guys who actually are in your MMV range.

    IOW, ride the carousel, then husband up a beta.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/05/16/hookinguprealities/tough-talk-about-sexual-market-value/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Does Mr. Giggles even read her blog?

  • BC

    HUS. The comedy, it doesn’t stop.

  • dudezz

    Rollo – You refer to post monogamy dread at the beginning of the article. Could you point me towards a post about this?

  • intjguy

    I’m trying to find some benchmarks for HB ratings. I’d appreciate it if you guys gave me some feedback by rating these pictures:

    http://pollmill.com/f/attractiveness-ratings-2pldvhz/answers/new.fullpage

    Thanks guys!

  • INTJ

    @RT

    Oh cool thanks. I hadn’t noticed that article. Your post echoes all of what I was trying to do with my polls.

    When I created this poll, I decided to do two things.

    First, I set out to create an universal set of reference average HB ratings so that the guy in LA can communicate with the guy in Butte in the same language.

    Second, I was seeking to quantifiably demonstrate the large diversity in male preferences. Sure, there are be universal things (mainly having long hair and not being significantly overweight) that will increase a girl’s attractiveness to 90% of males. However, no single girl will ever be a 10 (or even a 9) to all males, and only obese or hideously ugly girls will be unattractive to all males.

    This is good news for both men and women. For women, it means that they can work with the looks that they have and by becoming fit and not dressing like Dobby, become very attractive to at least some men. For men, it means that “10” that he thinks absolutely has to be out of his league is actually not a “10” to other guys. There isn’t as much competition for the girls subjectively at the top as there would be if male preferences were homogenous.

  • Missy

    @ArcBound

    Ok. I totally see it, the hamster thing. You put it well, women rationalizing a dominant man’s behavior as “a good person”…. yea maybe all alphas are really cold-hearted dicks. I accept that.

    It doesn’t make me wanna marry one though! I’ll have one of those self conscious attractive and successful beta guys w no confidence please! And with a side of good sexual chemistry. I’ll chat them up, no worries.

    So, the way I see it, women shouldn’t aspire to marry an alpha. I don’t know any even moderately intelligent women (even a 22-year-old) promise her life away to a cold hearted ass. Yes, she may date one or two but they, like many women you guys fuck around with are just that. For fun.

    Is that hamsterbation? Lowering my standards? Or just not understanding the benefits of marrying an alpha.

    A beta can tootttallly be trained to be more dominant. I have no concern about that. Hey, that’s what the manosphere is FOR right ;)

  • BC

    I’ll have one of those self conscious attractive and successful beta guys w no confidence please! And with a side of good sexual chemistry.

    lolollzllozllozzlolollzol

    Yes, she may date one or two [cold-hearted dick alphas] but they, like many women you guys fuck around with are just that. For fun.

    Carousel ride, party of one!

    A beta can tootttallly be trained to be more dominant. I have no concern about that. Hey, that’s what the manosphere is FOR right

    You have seen through us. That is exactly what the manosphere is for – to build better beta for teh wymynz. Now run along to HUS and leave us alone to plot how we can better serve the FI.

    The obtuseness.. it burns.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    It doesn’t make me wanna marry one though! I’ll have one of those self conscious attractive and successful beta guys w no confidence please! And with a side of good sexual chemistry. I’ll chat them up, no worries.

    @Missy, there’s no such thing as a “Beta with a side of Alpha”, because your innate Hypergamy senses the lack of genuineness in his ‘trained’ Alphaness.

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/

    You want a Man who “just gets it”:

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

    Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant male. The guy she wants to fuck is dominant because that’s ‘the way he is’ instead of who she had to tell him to be.

    Observing the process will change it. This is the root function of every shit test ever devised by a woman. If masculinity has to be explained to a man, he’s not the man for her.

    A beta can tootttallly be trained to be more dominant. I have no concern about that. Hey, that’s what the manosphere is FOR right?

    Yes, but you’re rationalizing his ‘training’ to suit your purposes, not his own. Your Hypergamy will never be gratified if he changes himself to appease it.

    You cannot build a better Beta:

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/04/07/2479/

    Your rationalization is exactly why you’ll cheat on your ‘perfected Beta’ a few years into your LTR, when your menstrual cycle is in its proliferative phase, and you actively pursue the ‘real’ Alpha’s giving you tingles at the ‘girls night out’ you subconsciously arranged with your girlfriends to facilitate meeting them.

  • Missy

    @rollo

    I appreciate your response. It makes sense. It has credibility. It’s harsh, but a harsh reality (I think it shows why you are the alpha among alphas, rather than a peon).

    Apologies for poking fun at what so far I see as circular thinking. My last comment was mostly saracastic. I have never has the ideation you can “change a man”. Nor will I “take what I can get”. I will never cheat, if I for whatever reason find myself bored or in an un satisfying committed relationship then I’d sooner leave (wo wiping out his bank account thank you – pre-nup all the way, takes away that lil generalization and takes away something he can use against me).

    From what I read: a woman marries a beta, gets bored, is not attracted to him = she is unhappy. Or a woman marries an alpha and spends her life with a cold hearted dick which eventually = unhappy. Any situation chix don’t get fucked (not in the good way)?

    Yes women who marry for the sake of not being alone are more prone to stray (though this still seems to be kind of a paranoia thing with you guys since the percent of women who cheat is … not sure off the top of my head but the ratio compared to men is ridiculously low. You guys churn on and on about a woman’s problem. Being cheated on is an epidemic for US, it’s kinda like men sitting around taking about what to do to avoid breast cancer – which does occur in like 2% of cases). It seems, you make all these cases as to why certain women are marriage material for alphas and deem “loyal” and “valuable” and don’t recognize the flaws in some of your logic.

    Younger women crave that dominance. True, true. They bear your children. Then they stop wanting you to be … A dick and be that good guy who picks the kids up from soccer and whatnot. Do alphas become that? Hmmm, dunno, lotta unhappy housewives out there starving for emotional attention – which is the main driver of cheating, not that bio craving to get impregnated while ovulating.

    I don’t speak for all women. I take birth control. I never ovulate. That whole out w the girls thing is not an issue. If when I stop taking it while trying to conceive 1. I wouldn’t ever be out drinking bc what woman attempting to get pregnant would be drinking? 2. My friends would NEVER enable that behavior. If there was a hint I would do something … I can’t imagine a situation where a married woman actively trying to get pregnant would end up drunk and alone in a bar surrounded by alphas ready to pounce. That’s just… What I see. And “out with the girls?”. My friends are married women with babies. There is no out w the girls getting wasted till 2am. That drifted away somewhere sometime ago and we disnt even notice when it had happened. Thats with my crowd anyhow.

    Again, I totally agree and believe in your rationale. I believe in generalization for the sake of “safety” but a man, alpha or beta kinda gotta take responsibility for stuff too. Why “allow” your wife to go partying when your trying to have a baby?

    My coworker is actively trying right now. She has 2 kids already. She drinks. They have BBQ’s while the kids are at grandmas and their friends come over and they spend the day eating burgers and drinking sangria… Ok. Not anymore – at least not her. Her husband “Won’t allow it” she tells me. I’m guessing that is an “alpha” move? Funny thin about biology. He is not an alpha. She admits it. She is an alpha. But that “side of alpha” from I can tell, peaks its head out when biology is involved. He forbids her, alpha, why? To protect HIS offspring. That is his biological response despite his overall demeanor.

    I get what you’re saying. I’ve learned a lot about how men think. I think much of it is spot on, other things not flawed but too general. Guys have asked me what women want/how to get a girl they like and I practically had to smack one bc he wouldn’t listen. Didn’t get it. They want you to TELL them not ASK them to hang out… Geez.

    I won’t and have never cheated. Once I did in second grade and almost immediately confessed. There are people who are born or taught very young there is no harm in it and cice versa. I’d say, look for traits beyond the “list” think of things that hint a woman is the former. Age, number of partners (while not monogomous), lifestyle… Those are indicators of important wifely qualities, but not loyalty. Not if they are born “cheaters”. What are?

    I have little mental list I use to weed out men who fit into that box. Separate from the “what qualities I am attracted to/seek in a mate”. What are true indicators of loyalty? Not just speculation?

    (Hint: one is, do they already have people in their live loyal TO THEM?)

    Kk. Thx Rollo. Looks like I’m doomed, i accept my fate. but there is a whole new gen of naive boys and girls out there and let’s do our best to get that divorce rate inching down as opposed to shooting up. People must be doing something wrong the way it looks now!

  • Pong

    Its possible for a woman to feel dread in her prime if is shes with a man who she deems as “having many options” and feels insecure enough to not expect another.

    In other words if his smv is higher than hers by that mentioned 2 point margin

  • BC

    In other words if his smv is higher than she perceives hers to be by that mentioned 2 point margin

    Remember that most women grossly overestimate their SMV due to the gap between attention they can get (i.e., pump-n-dump) and attention they can keep (commitment).

  • Pong

    Perception is all part of the game is it not?

    As long as she doesnt care about failed relationships theres no discrepancy.

    It only matters if she a relationship with an expectation that it is stable

  • Ton

    That hamster is spinning faster then I can read.

  • theprometheanman

    This entire blog just sounds like a conspiracy theory

  • mikec74

    Rollo,

    I thought you’d get a good laugh from this comment from Susan on her latest thread:

    “You’re preaching to the choir right now. HUS is the ONLY site where both sexes discuss and debate these issues productively. If you want to really address the problem, you’ll need to rid the sphere of sociopaths blathering about femcentrism.”

    Skimming the last few threads, there must be some new definition of “productive” that I am not aware of. Interestingly, she has now started deleting comments from some of the more “moderate” guys.

  • mikec74

    Rollo,

    I hope I am not taking this post too off-point, but I think this is interesting. If you read the last few threads on HUS, it really is remarkable if you approach it as a lab student analyzing how women manipulate group social environments, especially through a combination of ostracism, shaming, and passive-aggression. I believe at the subconscious level this stuff works on many men because we do in fact have a wired in “white knight” instinct. But I think it is possible to train your brain to recognize this BS when it is being played, and not allow it to affect you. Here is an interesting comment from HUS:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/05/16/hookinguprealities/tough-talk-about-sexual-market-value/#comment-208166

    This is actually excellent manipulation. She is saying “things have improved” which offers reinforcement to Susan for her heavy handed deletion and banning people, but says things have improved enough. This is an implicit unstated directive to Susan to continue to purge and censor even more heavily which I am sure she will respond to. There is much more in that comment that clearly is manipulative and intended to provoke certain behaviors.

    Perhaps this is fodder for a post. When a “Red Pill” man recognizes theses sorts of group social dynamics, what is the best play to it. Call it out directly, or actually use more of a feminine passive-aggressive style himself. In my experience, participating over there, I found that female snark and passive-aggression is actually better fought with passive-aggression itself. Being too direct seems to recast you as the villain. Anyways, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

    It really is turning into a shit-show over there. One male blogger has predicted basically all male participation will cease except for manginas like the commenter Megaman by the end of this year. The irony as Susan booted guys like myself and deti (not sure how your comments still get through unless she selectively allows them) some moderate guys showed up who are now taking the heat. It appears like a female instinct is to want to always make any male criticism/disagreement into the villains.

  • deti

    MikeC:

    Excellent analysis. As for Rollo, I am sure Susan still allows his comments so she can show her readers she can go toe to toe with a manosphere titan.

  • Bewilderbeast

    Is this latest behaviour on hus qualitatively different to how it used to be?

    I’ve not seen the original falling out of HUS and Rollo, but is it the same kind of thing going on again?

    Looks like the whole herd has PMS at the same time…massive change in tone. It’s a cold war zone.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @deti, I’m the only ‘titan’ who’ll (against my better judgement) occasionally entertain her hamster. Roissy & Roosh don’t even acknowledge her existence, and Dalrock rarely does only on his blog. I’m beginning to understand why.

    Aunt Giggles real goal is site traffic. She NEVER posts on anyone else’s blogs because she knows she’d be eviscerated logically. Her comments are confined to HUS and only in agreement with whatever her latest spin is.

  • deti

    Rollo:

    “Aunt Giggles real goal is site traffic.”

    You may be right about this. even now HUS’ market and female commentariat clamor for the removal of objectionable men and opinion from the comments section.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Funny how all her red pill endorsement got watered down around the time she got the http://fem.mgid.com/ advertising block added to her site.

    Look at her advertisement page. Can’t upset the cathedral and still make click-thru pennies.

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