Soft Dread

soft-dread

 

In the past I’ve covered in various detail the utility of instilling dread in a woman both pre and post monogamy. It’s been one of the more contentious principles I’ve endorsed, with women tending to revile me for having brought men to the awareness of dread’s uses, and men concurring with, but often hesitant in applying dread for fear of the backlash for having used dread conspicuously.

In Dread Games I made an attempt to clear up the real inevitability of dread in any average relationship. Dread is going to be a factor in any relationship due to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the one with the most power is the one who cares the least.

As Roissy and many legitimate psychologists will tell you, the most secure relationships generally result from about a 1-2 point SMV imbalance favoring the Man in the relationship. In this imbalance, the actual strength  of that secure feminine attachment to the man (both in and out of a monogamous commitment) can be expressed as a soft, or passive form of dread. This expression of dread is still rooted in a woman’s imagination of emotional, physical and provisional loss, but just as the application of that dread is passive, so too is a woman’s progressive realization of that dread.

Soft Dread

Mrs. Tomassi and I were recently talking with a woman of about 49. She’s the ever-present front desk host at our gym and a casual acquaintance and friend. She’s not particularly unattractive for her age, reasonably good shape from a body perspective – I can tell she used to enjoy a lot of male attention in her 20s and maybe 30’s – but now just this side of 50 she’s moved not so much into a regret stage, but rather a hopeful sense of well post-Wall self-remorse. That might sound odd, but she’s at least optimistic about her ‘chances’ of getting with a “good man” in the near future.

She’s quite upfront and honest about the Alpha Bad Boy Jerks she’s dated, married one and then divorced from her past. In fact she’s one of the more lucid women I’ve encountered about her present state and how she came to it. Although she’s the typical result of a hypergamous life prolonged past the “eating her cake too” phase, she owns her mistakes.

Although we generally hit Gold’s at different times, occasionally  the wife and I go together in the mornings. It was on one of these mornings, and our friend at the counter stopped us to say,

“I love you guys, I really do. I see a lot of people pass through here but when I see you both together it gives me hope that I can have a good relationship like you two. You’re such a team, I really hope I can meet a guy I can connect with like that.”

We were on our way out, and she always has something else to say about her personal life so, while I guess I was somewhat flattered, I didn’t pay it much mind. That is until our ride back home when Mrs. Tomassi looked me square in the face and said, “I am so glad I didn’t end up like that!” I was actually kind of surprised at the tone of her voice. “Thank God that’s not me, how horrible to be in that position at her age.” I nodded my head because I knew she was expecting my usually analyzations of post-Wall women and the beds they make. Then, with a hint of a tear in her eye, she gave me one of the best compliments I’ve ever heard from her, “I hope Bebé finds and marries a Man just like you.”

That made me feel really good, and what I’m about to type here sound really shitty. After not a small swell of pride, I thought, while it’s nice to be appreciated in this respect, would this realization have come without the influence of our friend and her state of life?

You see, what I experienced that morning was a sort of de fact association of social proof. Granted, I’m not taking anything away from the love and solidity upon which my marriage and our relationship is founded on, but was I just the right guy in the right place for this realization to come to awareness? What I had just participated in was a form of soft dread. A dread that needs no emphasis or prompting from a Man, simply the occasion for it to come to the surface to be actualized.

When a Man’s status is long established it’s easy to take his qualities for granted by women. It takes another woman’s lack to bring that status into focus for her. In the same vein that women will pre-approve or pre-qualify you for another woman’s intimacy, likewise the personal state of other women will serve as a benchmark of social proof for a Man’s wife or LTR. I realize this has the potential to cut the other way for women who are more well off than others, but the dynamic is real. I’ve written in the past that women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices Men must make to facilitate their feminine reality, but if they ever come close to this appreciation it’s only at the prompting of women outside the relationship who can recognize it in the Men committed to other women.

Progressive Dread

The admittedly very rough graph I created to illustrate the contemporary sexual marketplace (SMP) is almost a manosphere link staple now. However, I’m going to reuse it once more here to illustrate another point:

Print

When I wrote Navigating the SMP it was in response to a need for visualization of how men and women’s respective sexual market value (SMV) differentiate at different phases of their lives. Using this model it’s not too far a stretch to illustrate how dread plays a factor in women’s self, and relational awareness.

At their SMV peak, adjusting for the mean average, women’s potential for experiencing dread is as low as it will be in a lifetime. During this phase the potential for replacing a respective mate (or STR lover) is almost a nonissue. Even in emotionally invested relationships during this phase, the subliminal presence of a basic, unprompted, dread of loss is pushed into unawareness for women.

That dread of loss is replaced with the dread of insecurity as a woman ages toward the Wall. Before I continue here, it’s important to remember that security comes in many different forms – financial, emotional, psychological, spiritual and even self-esteem play a part in the totality of women’s security needs.

During the height of a woman’s SMV, men are scarcely aware of their potential value to a woman in the long term. Men’s recognition of dread is much more heightened when a woman’s SMV is peaking, while his is on a slow ascendency toward his late 20’s and early 30’s. He doesn’t want to miss his “dream girl” and she doesn’t want to sell herself short in the hypergamy gamble she’s playing.

As a woman ages to the Wall and beyond, and while a Man’s SMV accumulates into his 30’s, the role soft dread plays in the relationship is reversed. As women’s primary physical attraction decays, the subliminal dread of loss, and an ever decreasing ability to recreate her security, increases in her psyche. It may not be on the surface of her awareness, but there will be more reminders of her state with each passing year.

It seems unduly cruel to remind women of this dread; that’s not my intent with today’s post. In fact, just because I’m aware of the subtle reminders of soft dread women experience, I may play my relationship Game with a bit more sensitivity. That being the case, there’s no ignoring the reality of this dynamic and the utility it represents for a man aware of the state of women in various phases of their lives.

When I wrote Navigating the SMP the operative intent behind it was to make men more conscious of the predictability of women’s motives and behaviors at various phases of life – and plan their Game according to the signs they were seeing. In the case of soft dread, this realization may at first come as a hint of appreciation to the Man who’s dutifully persevered through his woman’s dominant frame for most of his LTR  Marriage. It may come as a comfort for a guy who’s unused to sentimental declarations of appreciation, but it’s important to remember the why in that declaration, rather than the who in that declaration.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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GeeBee
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GeeBee
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Truer than true. Before unplugging, one of the few things I was keenly aware of in my last LTR was that “true” appreciation only seemed to come when my ex evaluated her own situation in comparison to some other woman’s. +1

Hyperion
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“It may come as a comfort for a guy who’s unused to sentimental declarations of appreciation, but it’s important to remember the why in that declaration, rather than the who in that declaration.” Great quote. I’ve noticed that women express gratitude for something rather than a gratitude to someone. When she makes a statement like that, she is really just circling back to considering herself and expressing relief that some bad result didn’t happen to her. Her statement only mimics the form of a compliment. Left out of her thinking is consideration of, or gratitude to the person who saved… Read more »

Alpha Mission
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Im glad you brought back the comparative SMV graph. I like the personal story too. So when are we getting this book, Rollo?

anotheronetakesthepill
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“It seems unduly cruel to remind women of this dread” To a lot of us it has become our daily routine when meeting post-wall or near-the-wall woman. I’ve even started giving advice to young women. The problem? They get it as: “So you are telling me that I should get together and settle with someone who feels ok, instead of searching for the best one?” Settling isn’t an option until later in their life when they realize they had too high standards … and even then they can’t help but let their hamsters run. Is there anything similar to female… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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@Alpha, I took a bit of a work sabbatical and I’m devoting most of my time to finishing the book edits and relocating back to Nevada for work this month.

Should be done mid to late June.

Kate
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What a touching post. There’s actually a couple I see at the gym (far older than you two) who always brighten my day just by seeing them. I think we all need reminders from time to time to appreciate what we have, whatever that is. I listen to people complain about trivial things about their spouses and I think in my head, do you know what you *have*? Nice to read this post and glad to hear you are appreciated, Rollo smile

Immediate
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Seems like women hampsterize away their SMV position more than ever. It wasn’t that long ago that “the big 3 – 0” was a major wall for women and “the big 4 – 0” was more or less end of the line. Even after the sexual revolution of the 60’s/70’s. However now, women seem to be less and less outwardly aware of 30 signifying the beginning of the end. Today they start acting like that around 40, and like in this article the true wall is only apparent to them when they are pushing 50. All of this flies in… Read more »

A Dark Heart
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This ‘soft dread’ you speak of can be expanded to all people: it’s realizing a loss prior to that loss. Or, ‘we rarely appreciate things until they’re gone’. What she experienced – by proxy – is what she might have become had she not appreciated your relationship with her, if that makes sense.

The most common thing people say on their deathbed or after the loss of a parent is ‘I wish I had loved him/her more’. This is the same thing – a time travel of sorts – but on a smaller scale.

earl
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“It may come as a comfort for a guy who’s unused to sentimental declarations of appreciation, but it’s important to remember the why in that declaration, rather than the who in that declaration.”

I’d like to think my why’s in the declaration are a part of who I am in that declaration.

Who we are as men is how we act. That’s what women respond to.

BC
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I’ve even started giving advice to young women. The problem? They get it as: “So you are telling me that I should get together and settle with someone who feels ok, instead of searching for the best one?”

Give the poker concept of a “winning hand” and explain that yes, they can discard their current hand in hopes of drawing a better one, but the odds are that they are going to lose the pot.

If they still don’t get it, just smile, nod and wish them luck.
You can’t help someone who does not want to be helped.

sunshinemary
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First, I don’t understand why everyone gets so up in arms about Dread. Of all the aspects of game, that has always seemed to me like the most straightforward and reasonable. It’s what is known as Reality and Consequences, as I have said before. It is reality that other women want to sleep with your man; it is consequences that he may be tempted to do so if you turn into a fat, frigid bitch. Plan accordingly, ladies. Second, reading in the manosphere over the past year has given me the exact same reaction that Mrs. Tomassi had to the… Read more »

Case
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I read these articles and the comments sometimes and think to myself it’s like we are a flippin Hive Mind. I had ALMOST nothing at all to add to the conversation you have all already said it, but SSM’s quip gives me a small one, … re: “ading in the manosphere over the past year has given me the exact same reaction that Mrs. Tomassi had to the lady at the gym; reading about all those bitter 40-something spinsters is like bathing in soft dread. There but for the grace of God and my husband’s benevolence go I. I’ve never… Read more »

TempestTcup
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I agree with SSM – dread isn’t always bad; sometimes it is just a reminder of what could have been if different decisions had been made.

Sometimes dread is positive, like if he likes to engage in risky sports, the fear of loss she feels is a positive form of dread that provides tingles galore.

sunshinemary
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Case: And while your remark and this article is refreshing, I would be forced to admit that my ex’s experience seems to remain the standard from among women I’ve crossed paths with since the split. That is possibly because of what Rollo mentioned in the article: women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices Men must make to facilitate their feminine reality, but if they ever come close to this appreciation it’s only at the prompting of women outside the relationship who can recognize it in the Men committed to other women. I don’t agree with him that we… Read more »

sunshinemary
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In the case of soft dread, this realization may at first come as a hint of appreciation to the Man who’s dutifully persevered through his woman’s dominant frame for most of his LTR Marriage. Does this happen in those scenarios, where the woman has been setting the dominant frame? Do such women really respond to soft dread and suddenly turn grateful? And how should such a man respond when she does? My inclination would be that he might use that to flip the frame – his for hers. It could be very useful. Is that what you meant when you… Read more »

Leo G
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I sit here and read your words, though thoughtful and mostly true, in my world not quite right. My wife turned fifty in February. She is fit, rides horses, is half way through a farrier course (real physical work), and still can look very hot. A friend of my 19 year old son, just this weekend, commented that she looked way younger then fifty. She is not a one off. A lot of our female friends, in their late forties, early fifties are still very high in the SMV. A couple now have boy toys that are 10 – 15… Read more »

Mark Minter
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While I have learned a lot of concepts from this blog, easily one of the most functional is Dread. I am actually wrestling with the concept now. I have these tendencies of punctuality and consideration. I think men should do what they say they will do when they say they will do it. Yet, as mentioned, I worry it will be taken for granted and not appreciated as a good quality. So I struggle with it. When and how do you deliberately instill dread? I don’t really have the answers yet. So this post of soft dread is timely for… Read more »

mikec74
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This post hits on something that I think is endemic to many women (insert obligatory NAWALT) in long-term relationships (some exceptions obviously being a few commenters here) and that is female COMPLACENCY. Unless the woman is directly reminded by comparison there is a tendency to underappreciate the committed relationship she has. My first marriage ended and it most definitely was for the best as I think she probably was borderline BPD. Anyways, she left me and then less then a month later wanted me back. It was only not having the relationship that woke her up to what she had.… Read more »

Leo G
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MM, very timely. I have been training myself for the past 4 months to live as if we shall stay together, but plan, emotionally and physically, to be prepared to leave, if she does act on her hamster’s wailing.

Sorta like act locally, but think globally.

Bobb Dobbs
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Sort of only distantly related to this post, but related in general to female divorce … we all know that females initiate 70% of hetero divorces. I just came across a 2004 Swedish study of lesbian divorce rates — 300% higher than heteros. Surprisingly gay (male) divorce rates were only 150% higher than heteros. That 70% initiation rate by females has always been attributed to men behaving badly. But when two females are involved the rate triples!

kios
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There is a woman at my work who is 40 and looks it. She hit the wall hard after years of partying, drinking, late nights, bad diet etc etc. But she still flirts with all the men, including younger ones, just to reassure herself that she still has it, and must of us go along with in the spirit of politeness, workplace harmony, and in a few cases, the possibility of getting an easy fuck; she was a major slut in her day. She has alpha widow written all over her. Anyway, the other day i mentioned how most of… Read more »

Days of Broken Arrows
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Over at Roosh’s we’ve been lamenting the way Facebook has turned a lot of average women into attention-whores and because of that made “5s think they’re 9s.” This post opened my eyes to the fact that there might be a negative side to women being on Facebook after all: it might also have the effect on women that this receptionist had on Mrs. Rollo. I have scads of older single female friends whose every post is either whining or screaming about some man — and sometimes it’s man after man, week after week. This has to have some effect on… Read more »

Andrews
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All this dread reminds me of Thus Spoke Zarathustra. About women – “… Concerning woman, one should only talk unto men. … In your [women] love let there be valour! With your love shall ye assail him who inspireth you with fear! In your love be your honour! Little doth woman understand otherwise about honour. But let this be your honour: always to love more than ye are loved, and never be the second. Let man fear woman when she loveth: then maketh she every sacrifice, and everything else she regardeth as worthless. Let man fear woman when she hateth:… Read more »

krauserpua
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“During this phase the potential for replacing a respective mate (or STR lover) is almost a nonissue.” While this is true on a macro level, I think it’s quite easy to remove with some Game. The primary value a man gives a woman is how he makes her feel. Much Game theory is written for the “average guy” and fits his situation. A huge part of Game is to make yourself the best offer a girl will get (in terms of how she’ll feel, not by being a chump and paying the highest price to win her). When you deep… Read more »

Ton
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I listen to women complain about trivial things regarding men and think, never again. The latest was listening to a woman talk up her ex husband and some ex boyfriends while never praising her current husband. The nice beta guy who was raising her thug spawn and keeping her in a 4000 square foot McCain mansion got 0 mention. It was a good teachable moment for my kids. Not sure when I heard a group of women praise the men in their life. Woman claim to be more then living sex dolls, but they rarely behave in such a way… Read more »

Stingray
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Not sure when I heard a group of women praise the men in their life. You cannot do this in a group of women as the other women see it as bragging and self promotion. It is a direct insult to her and her life to praise one’s own husband. Not bad mouthing one’s husband is also noticed. It’s a bit bizarre. However, we are grateful because our husbands have saved us from spinsterhood. So it’s not a “rather than” situation, it’s that we are grateful to him because of what he has done…it’s both the who and the why.… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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@MikeC, good christ, I just read Aunt Giggles self-evincing pityfuck story at your link. If anyone had doubts about my assertion that HUS exists solely as her daily catharsis all they need to do is read that thread. I love how suddenly I’m the guy appreciating the emotional investment my wife has in me, and she the one recounting and magnanimously rationalizing a pity fuck she “didn’t want to have.” The irony writes itself. With every post she only further proves my points about her. I can hardly wait till she completely snaps and throws all of her pretense out… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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deti
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@ SSM: “First, I don’t understand why everyone gets so up in arms about Dread. Of all the aspects of game, that has always seemed to me like the most straightforward and reasonable.” Well, “everyone” is not up in arms about Dread. About the only ones commenting around these parts about the “evils” and “unethical behavior” of Dread are Susan Walsh and her commenters at HUS. Susan says she doesn’t like Dread because it’s “unethical” and dishonest. It’s become apparent to me she disdains Dread (i.e. “consequences”) because it puts men in the power position in a relationship, and allows… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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Oh, I dunno Deti, I think after comments like this Giggles might finally be coming around about dread:

I’m sorry to break it to you, but a very large number of relationships end because one party finds someone they like better. Females routinely compete for their mates, and must continue to compete to keep their mates.

True to form, I’m sure she’ll change her mind about applied Dread, and just like Solipsism and Hypergamy she’ll rewrite it to sound as if she’d endorsed Dread all along.

deti
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And here’s how SW hamsterized it. Someone called her out: “Helping someone else cheat on their partner was a horrid thing to do.” Susan rationalized it away, because hey, she was unattached. He might have been a douche, but she was morally clean: “Psshhh. I don’t buy it. The moral responsibility belongs entirely to the person who’s committed. I feel that same way about people who have affairs with married folks. They’re stupid, but not morally wrong. “I didn’t know or care about his gf. Why should I make a choice based on her needs?” Hamsterlation: “If it serves my… Read more »

deti
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Yeah, Rollo, she seems to be OK with men applying Dread as a last resort tactic to restore stability to an LTR that the woman destabilized. Where she has an “ethical” problem is men gaslighting their women; openly flirting for the sole purpose of DHV; cheating or ONSing to DHV; running head games; and lying about intentions or other relationships/sex partners;

deti
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deti
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Or, being deliberately evasive, ambivalent or refusing to disclose other relationships/sex partners.

Kate
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mike: “It was bizarre how much she apparently wanted me when she didn’t have me, but when she had me she didn’t have the wherewithal to appreciate having me.” This one crosses gender lines and is Oh so deceiving! There is no going/looking back, in my mind. Onward, onward, always. In some small cases the person truly realizes they made a mistake and wants to change. In most cases, they only ever want what they can’t have. I think the need to instill dread is relative to the woman’s age and experience. The single most life-affecting experience of my life… Read more »

Kate
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“Psshhh. I don’t buy it. The moral responsibility belongs entirely to the person who’s committed. I feel that same way about people who have affairs with married folks. They’re stupid, but not morally wrong. “I didn’t know or care about his gf. Why should I make a choice based on her needs?” Eyeyiyi! WRONG! The moral consequence applies to all involved. The committed person has the responsibility to diclose if they are married. Perhaps that is what she meant. If someone keeps information from you, you are innocent in the sense that you didn’t know, but you are still culpable.… Read more »

Kate
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@Stingray: Yes, there is always an expectation to be negative about anything. People who spend all their time complaining obviously have nothing else to say. A women’s forum I’ve rejoined started a practice way back of posting daily messages of gratitude, why we *love* men, and a “gushing” thread for those people whose cup was running over. Its fun to be happy! smile

Glenbert
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My ex was constantly worried that I would cheat on her. Having been a bit of a cad in my early 20s, I could honestly say I was over it and was very committed to “settling down” but her paranoia continued. I say paranoia and not dread purposefully here because other than accuse me of cheating on her, she did nothing to ensure that I didn’t. You can see where this is going. She, of course, cheated on me and gas-lighted me into believing that our relationship was legitimately breaking down (not because of any outside influence). I reminded her… Read more »

Martel
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Much of the problem with facebook, smartphones, Sex & the City culture, and all the rest is that it kills the sense of soft dread in high SMV women. In all of human history, I doubt women in their peak years have had as many constant reminders of their high value. Also, instead of being reminded of the Wall, the media keeps promoting the lie that there is no Wall at all. Not only is the peak higher than it’s ever been, they’re continually told that it will last longer than it ever has. And every time I tell a… Read more »

Candide
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On the subject of women appreciating their men, I’ve been writing to some of my female cousins and family friends that I haven’t seen for 3-5 years. They live overseas and I’m about to do some travelling to their countries. They have married well, their husbands are loaded and allow them to stay home to look after the children and play with their fun side business. I was lazy, so I copied & pasted the same email with names changed. I asked the same standard question “How’s the family?” It has to be a crazy coincidence that every single one… Read more »

sunshinemary
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@ deti No, it’s not just at HUS. I have heard gentlemen say on both my site and others that they use game but not dread. And I’m like, why not? If that is the tool that is called for, use it. That’s like saying, “I have a tool set, but I never use the hammer because I heard of a guy who killed someone with a hammer once.” I wouldn’t consider actual cheating dread game, though, would you? Cheating, if you’ve agreed to be monogamous, is seriously unethical and in many cases will cause the demise of the relationship… Read more »

sunshinemary
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Hey, nice story you linked to there, Rollo, of Susan sleeping with other women’s boyfriends!

Anyone remember Susan’s recent words to me? Something about not being able to respect a woman who stays with a man who has cheated on her?

Interesting.

Apparently she is not only rude, but she has a hamster the size of Manhattan and is a whore to boot.

bob
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“I am actually wrestling with the concept now. I have these tendencies of punctuality and consideration. I think men should do what they say they will do when they say they will do it. Yet, as mentioned, I worry it will be taken for granted and not appreciated as a good quality. So I struggle with it. When and how do you deliberately instill dread? ” If you are a Quality Man­™, you will instil dread without knowing it, simply because you are rare and demanded. Being punctual, kind, polite, honest, those are not weaknesses, but it’s true that they… Read more »

Ton
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Ton
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Nor do I see women walk away from such bitch fest.

Actions over words. If women are capable of these things, why do men so rarely see it? Why do women not walk away from the hen party? Or refuse to engage?

Joe Blow
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Dread Game is a hammer, but hammers come in a lot of shapes and sizes, ranging from sledges you bust up concrete with, to the little rubber ones doctors use to test reflexes. My wife is my age – mid-40’s – and she has a lot of single women friends in their mid-30’s to 50, and I use them as a reflex hammer once in a while. My wife’s friends are all insane (IMAO), with massive hamsters and bad attitudes. They are *so* desparate for men, but also very vocal about how men suck. They can’t get through a cocktail… Read more »

deti
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@ SSM:

“I wouldn’t consider actual cheating dread game, though, would you?”

Cheating isn’t dread, though it can have the same effects as dread. Dread is “I haven’t cheated, but I’m letting you know I could if I wanted to.” Cheating is follow through on the implied threat.

“The same with lying about intentions. That isn’t dread game so much as such being smarmy. ”

that’s just being a cad.

Stingray
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Why do women not walk away from the hen party? Or refuse to engage? Because waling away means you have passed judgement. Passing judgement means that feelings are hurt and if you hurt their feelings you are rejected from the group. Refusing to engage is easier, but then you are just considered boring or uppity. It’s herd mentality. When the herd is toxic, it spreads poison because disengaging is incredibly difficult. I am of the opinion that women need a herd. However, she has the choice of the toxic herd of girl world or her man. I think 7 Man… Read more »

Ton
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Ton
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I don’t do dread myself unless you count be cool or be gone dread game.

deti
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SSM:

What’s going on over at HUS is beyond ridiculous. It appears she has completely repudiated even the “purple” pill, and has gone full on “I’m on board with whatever serves women’s interests”.

All the talk of “ethics” and “intent” is just a smokescreen so women’s interests can be advanced at the expense of men.

itsme
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It was truly a mission of mercy.

we should nominate you for sainthood, susan.

what’s the patron saint of lotsa cockas?

itsme
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Apparently she is not only rude, but she has a hamster the size of Manhattan and is a whore to boot.

that’s being a little harsh. that was back in college. it wasn’t real. it didn’t mean anything. she’s not that kind of girl any more.

Kaii
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This is a great post! The idea of dread is a good one, however, I am finding that I don’t want to even bother with it anymore. The more “un-plugged” I become, the less interested I am in navigating dating and all its bullshit. Maybe that feeling will go away, we’ll see.

Rollo Tomassi
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The more “un-plugged” I become, the less interested I am in navigating dating and all its bullshit. Maybe that feeling will go away, we’ll see.

NEO: What are you trying to tell me, that I can dodge bullets?

MORPHEUS: No Neo. I’m trying to tell you that when you’re ready, you won’t have to.

Ton
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Ton
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Women prefer the herd over showing basic consideration and respect toward a man, including a man who rescued a whore and her thug speak, which is why women stay in the live sex doll category

It’s not that I expect better behavior from women. However, if they cannot behave any better toward men, they should not get any better treatment from men.

Why would any rational man invest in women behaving in such a fashion?

Stingray
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Stingray
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Women prefer the herd over showing basic consideration and respect toward a man

Ton, a woman cannot feel respect for a man who puts her above himself. Should she behave respectful anyway? Yes. Of course. But if she doesn’t feel it for the man, she will feel the respect for the herd that is above her. Without guidance, feelings win. Woman can behave better. Few are teaching them how. The few who are are drowned out by whatever reality show is currently popular.

TLM
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TLM
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@Rollo

I’ve never understood why VD links HUS. Susan is just another fatty feminist in a country full of them with nothing productive to offer men.

And with regards to the gym secretary, 49 is likely why she seems moderately level-headed. Once they hit 50 they become bitter shrews or bat shit crazy cat women.

Ton
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Ton
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I understand Stingray. It affects all my interactions with women. Even the most pathetic beta can do a woman serious physical harm if he so chooses. A wise woman would show men respect for that alone. In this case the man rescued her and her thug spawn. His reward? A woman who shows no consideration for him. None of the 4 should an ounce of respect for the men who were financing their lifestyle. Nor did they show one once of shame when I called them on it. As a side note, I won’t be invited back to any more… Read more »

William
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William
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One reason people don’t like Dread because people don’t the idea of not having control over themselves.
You’ll see this when decisions of what people can do to attract a mate come up.
Some responses will be questioning as to why, they should have to do anything.

Stingray
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Stingray
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Not excuse it, Ton. Simply explain it. My hope is that understanding it can lead to change of that inexcusable behavior, at least for some.

anotheronetakesthepill
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I would say that once you need to use dread (the hard version of it) the relationship is heading south. With my last girlfriend we were 3 months into the relationship when she started feeding me BS of she not being ready for a relationship, of me waiting for her some years, etc. I knew what that was about and told her: “If that’s what you think the relationship is over right now”. You can guess how she flipped it in the passive/aggresive way: “You want to get rid of me. Don’t make a decision cause I haven’t made one… Read more »

Ton
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Ton
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The only consistently successful behavior modification tools are fear, pain and suffering

Perhaps an explanation will help men adjust their behavior but it will do next to nothing in adjusting women’s behavior. Men would be better off adapting an attitude of amusement and disdain towards women. Which ever is required at the time

I spend 0 effort in trying to save relationships. Not enough return on the investment of time and effort. Did it once, won’t make the mistake again.

Missy
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Missy
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Damn that chart IS accurate I agree that there is alway one who “loves” more in a relationship and this seems to me that it is usually the female. Thus providing men with the “power”. However, this in no way diminishes that the man DOES love the woman as well. From observational research I’ve also found/noticed that often after many years of marriage this “one who loves more thing” or rather the “power” shifts. It becomes the woman who has more power the longer a couple is together. You totally just gave me a sort of epiphany as to why!!… Read more »

Tampa
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Tampa
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Check out this profile of this chick I saw on Match.com. Almost hilarious how it hits on every point this blog has noted. -Turned down marriage proposal from a beta (check) -Suffers from alpha window sydrome (check) -Still contends she is as hot as she was when she was 27 (check) -Worried about missing her chance to land a quality man (Check) -Self esteem is too high (check) -Still wants kids but doesn’t realize it’s too late (check) -Won’t settle (check) -Has hit the wall but doesn’t know it yet (check) -Will find it easy finding men to bone her… Read more »

Missy
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Missy
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Oh my friends the dread is real. I assure you. It hit me like a ton of bricks 6 mos before my 30th bday. Two things I wanna say. 1. I truly was not ready or felt compelled as most women, most of my friends were at 23-25 at finding or even accidentally finding their now spouses. If it had been something that happen great but I disdained the pick up scene, I was really still very uncomfortable in my own skin and filled with fear of “letting someone in” (who knows why I’m done psychoanalyzing, at this stage what’s… Read more »

Chef xerxes
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Chef xerxes
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This is every man’s dream. A 49-year-old well past her expiration date.

earl
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earl
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“Why didn’t anyone tell me that I HAD to find a man when I was 24?”

Everybody has been brainwashed.

Missy
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Missy
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Brainwashed? No one told me NOT to secure a beta I wasn’t really into because I may not have any options left later. They didn’t tell me to go on a rabid man hunt before deer season was up (my mother did say that I was not ready when I was younger, as I stated I felt, but at around 27 I was and should “get a boyfriend”, which again was what I felt too. I made a mistake on the person not the timeline IMHO). No woman in my family was married before 30, it wasn’t something I was… Read more »

Glenbert
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Glenbert
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Her blog is called Hooking Up SMART. Forget the morality for a second. Hooking up with people who have significant others who may go apeshit and complicate your life, even just a little bit, is anything but smart.

I’ve thought she looked like buffoon in her avatar, but now I know that the contents of that book match the cover.

Ton
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Ton
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Alphas are assholes, as weak people use the term these days. chicks just see past it. Hamster at work

Missy
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Missy
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K, gonna take a last… attempt to understand what the heck you guys, want, believe whatever and them I’m just tossing this thing (actually the post is quite good and full of substance, it’s been the comments that are riddled with – words – just words, much of which contradict themselves to the point I am left to believe they are said for the sole purpose of putting a sub-type of person down, for the sake of arguing, to just BE angry with angry words.) Alphas are assholes, betas are weak. That’s it. What about the low paid construction worker… Read more »

FuriousFerret
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FuriousFerret
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Actually if you really want to simplify the Alpha/Beta thing it’s simply: Alpha – man hot women want and do fuck Beta – man who hot women do not want to fuck So if you are the most flaming herb that wears coke bottle glasses, talks with a wisp, physique with a huge pot belly combined with puny muscles and somehow, someway most hot chicks want to fuck him, then he’s an alpha male. It’s just that there are certain universal patterns that we recognize as alpha behavior that provide a baseline and blueprint to fuck with the female… Read more »

Missy
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Missy
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Oh my ferret friend, thank you. THAT makes sense. And yes, I hate an overly polite doting dude, especially early on (mainly bc I think they are full of shit, reek of desperation and have no idea what they want, put me on a pedestal AFTER you know me, then I’m all for the princess treatment, till then… slow your role dude). I still think the shy ones or being “shy” doesn’t equate betaness. Being aloof is.. sexy, it is for women and for men. That guy sitting there, alone, but not embarrassed about it, looking out into the crowd… Read more »

Case
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Case
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SSM, re: “I don’t agree with him that we women fundamentally lack this capacity, but we most certainly lack it functionally.” couple thoughts on that. I am most able to get on board with what Rollo says about this when I identify with the idea that most men seem to think about a woman and a woman’s love the way Christians are taught to think about Christ and Christ’s love. I recall attending a church ages ago and kind of attuning to that and even thinking that they were perfectly conscious of it and were basically trying to remedy the… Read more »

DeCode
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DeCode
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Missy; Your hamster is about to have a heart attack.

Arcbound
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Arcbound
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@Missy

When a man is deemed alpha any action he takes is seen in a favorable light by women. The opposite for a beta man. If he’s alpha and nice you get “oh he’s a genuinely great human being”, but if beta and nice “he is a creep doing it for sex.

This is how a woman’s hamster works. Get the results first, induce a feeling or impression or even just fvck ger good in her and then she will backwards rationalize everything to fit according to that.

Arcbound
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Arcbound
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*Even just fvck her good

gregg
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gregg
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@ markminter

“It is your job and your body, the yin and yang of her hypergamy, that are the basis of that attraction.”

true. you are basically a tool – you have an engine and design. this is the key insight into interaction with women.there is no NEED to instill dread. Dread is just the tool of a weak man to prove that he is still usefull tool for his master (woman).

deti
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deti
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Rollo: Fascinating. Susan’s new post “Tough Talk about Sexual Market Value” is actually a pretty good post in which she advises young women to focus not on SMV but on MMV. It’s actually sound advice. But then Susan ends it with this: “The silver lining is that if you work hard to increase your MMV, you may be able to punch above your SMV weight, which is what I managed to do regularly before I was married. For that reason, I’d recommend putting all your energy into Girl Game first, and compromise later if necessary.” Translation: Work hard to make… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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Does Mr. Giggles even read her blog?

BC
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BC
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HUS. The comedy, it doesn’t stop.

dudezz
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dudezz
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Rollo – You refer to post monogamy dread at the beginning of the article. Could you point me towards a post about this?

intjguy
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intjguy
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I’m trying to find some benchmarks for HB ratings. I’d appreciate it if you guys gave me some feedback by rating these pictures:

http://pollmill.com/f/attractiveness-ratings-2pldvhz/answers/new.fullpage

Thanks guys!

Rollo Tomassi
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@intjguy, this is relevant:

http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/29/hb10/

INTJ
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INTJ
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@RT Oh cool thanks. I hadn’t noticed that article. Your post echoes all of what I was trying to do with my polls. When I created this poll, I decided to do two things. First, I set out to create an universal set of reference average HB ratings so that the guy in LA can communicate with the guy in Butte in the same language. Second, I was seeking to quantifiably demonstrate the large diversity in male preferences. Sure, there are be universal things (mainly having long hair and not being significantly overweight) that will increase a girl’s attractiveness to… Read more »

Missy
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Missy
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@ArcBound Ok. I totally see it, the hamster thing. You put it well, women rationalizing a dominant man’s behavior as “a good person”…. yea maybe all alphas are really cold-hearted dicks. I accept that. It doesn’t make me wanna marry one though! I’ll have one of those self conscious attractive and successful beta guys w no confidence please! And with a side of good sexual chemistry. I’ll chat them up, no worries. So, the way I see it, women shouldn’t aspire to marry an alpha. I don’t know any even moderately intelligent women (even a 22-year-old) promise her life away… Read more »

BC
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BC
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I’ll have one of those self conscious attractive and successful beta guys w no confidence please! And with a side of good sexual chemistry. lolollzllozllozzlolollzol Yes, she may date one or two [cold-hearted dick alphas] but they, like many women you guys fuck around with are just that. For fun. Carousel ride, party of one! A beta can tootttallly be trained to be more dominant. I have no concern about that. Hey, that’s what the manosphere is FOR right You have seen through us. That is exactly what the manosphere is for – to build better beta for teh wymynz.… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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It doesn’t make me wanna marry one though! I’ll have one of those self conscious attractive and successful beta guys w no confidence please! And with a side of good sexual chemistry. I’ll chat them up, no worries. @Missy, there’s no such thing as a “Beta with a side of Alpha”, because your innate Hypergamy senses the lack of genuineness in his ‘trained’ Alphaness. http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/ You want a Man who “just gets it”: http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/ Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant… Read more »

Missy
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Missy
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@rollo I appreciate your response. It makes sense. It has credibility. It’s harsh, but a harsh reality (I think it shows why you are the alpha among alphas, rather than a peon). Apologies for poking fun at what so far I see as circular thinking. My last comment was mostly saracastic. I have never has the ideation you can “change a man”. Nor will I “take what I can get”. I will never cheat, if I for whatever reason find myself bored or in an un satisfying committed relationship then I’d sooner leave (wo wiping out his bank account thank… Read more »

Pong
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Pong
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Its possible for a woman to feel dread in her prime if is shes with a man who she deems as “having many options” and feels insecure enough to not expect another.

In other words if his smv is higher than hers by that mentioned 2 point margin

BC
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BC
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In other words if his smv is higher than she perceives hers to be by that mentioned 2 point margin

Remember that most women grossly overestimate their SMV due to the gap between attention they can get (i.e., pump-n-dump) and attention they can keep (commitment).

Pong
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Pong
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Perception is all part of the game is it not?

As long as she doesnt care about failed relationships theres no discrepancy.

It only matters if she a relationship with an expectation that it is stable

Ton
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Ton
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That hamster is spinning faster then I can read.

theprometheanman
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theprometheanman
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This entire blog just sounds like a conspiracy theory

mikec74
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mikec74
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Rollo,

I thought you’d get a good laugh from this comment from Susan on her latest thread:

“You’re preaching to the choir right now. HUS is the ONLY site where both sexes discuss and debate these issues productively. If you want to really address the problem, you’ll need to rid the sphere of sociopaths blathering about femcentrism.”

Skimming the last few threads, there must be some new definition of “productive” that I am not aware of. Interestingly, she has now started deleting comments from some of the more “moderate” guys.

trackback

[…] Dread is not evil. […]

mikec74
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Rollo, I hope I am not taking this post too off-point, but I think this is interesting. If you read the last few threads on HUS, it really is remarkable if you approach it as a lab student analyzing how women manipulate group social environments, especially through a combination of ostracism, shaming, and passive-aggression. I believe at the subconscious level this stuff works on many men because we do in fact have a wired in “white knight” instinct. But I think it is possible to train your brain to recognize this BS when it is being played, and not allow… Read more »

deti
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deti
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MikeC:

Excellent analysis. As for Rollo, I am sure Susan still allows his comments so she can show her readers she can go toe to toe with a manosphere titan.

Bewilderbeast
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Is this latest behaviour on hus qualitatively different to how it used to be?

I’ve not seen the original falling out of HUS and Rollo, but is it the same kind of thing going on again?

Looks like the whole herd has PMS at the same time…massive change in tone. It’s a cold war zone.

Rollo Tomassi
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@deti, I’m the only ‘titan’ who’ll (against my better judgement) occasionally entertain her hamster. Roissy & Roosh don’t even acknowledge her existence, and Dalrock rarely does only on his blog. I’m beginning to understand why.

Aunt Giggles real goal is site traffic. She NEVER posts on anyone else’s blogs because she knows she’d be eviscerated logically. Her comments are confined to HUS and only in agreement with whatever her latest spin is.

deti
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deti
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Rollo:

“Aunt Giggles real goal is site traffic.”

You may be right about this. even now HUS’ market and female commentariat clamor for the removal of objectionable men and opinion from the comments section.

Rollo Tomassi
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Funny how all her red pill endorsement got watered down around the time she got the http://fem.mgid.com/ advertising block added to her site.

Look at her advertisement page. Can’t upset the cathedral and still make click-thru pennies.

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