Is Seduction Real?

From a SoSuave regular:

This has been driving me crazy for awhile so I got to post this question. Can you REALLY, honestly, seduce a girl? When I say “seduce” her I’m talking about taking a girl that just wants nothing to do with you at all for whatever reason that you might have no control over, and literally saying this or saying that and changing her mind?

Here’s what I’ve experienced:

1.) My “presentation” is mostly the same with every girl and really there’s no presentation at all. I’m about all personality. Most girls that I meet say that I’m “cute” (you know how girls talk) in the looks area, I always present myself wearing high fashion and my car is nice.

2.) But here’s the thing, the results I get depend upon the girl. There are girls that will love me, some that will just “go with the flow,” then some that will flat out say boy get lost. But here’s the WEIRD thing. I would have some average looking chick reject me to turn around and have a total dime accept my offers lol. Looking at it, it doesn’t make any sense, but I think it’s coming back to what I’m starting to see in the field and that’s the result of the interaction with the girl has more to do with the GIRL in question rather than you. I mean of course you need to work your Game, look good and do your thing, but what I’m finding is that the results often depend upon the state of the girl and her life and her background, etc.

I mean are guys here seriously whipping out “lines” and player shit to turn girls that are just totally not interested to being interested? I guess from reading the manosphere I’m more in line with the focus on the girl being interested when I show up rather than believing I can create interest.

Are you really seducing the girl or did the girl find you sexy when you walked in the door and already decided that she would fuck you JUST AS LONG as you didn’t come off as a loser, creep, etc?? Which means all this shyt comes down to is having the balls to go up and spark interesting convos, have an interesting personality, and knowing WHICH girl in the room to go up to and which ones not to?

There’s a PUA idiom that states 80% of seduction is simply not fucking up what’s already there. Attraction is not a choice – however, what you do from there is entirely up to you.

I think people get hung up on the word “seduction.” It conjures up melodramatic associations of doing something nefarious to tempt someone into doing something against their own interests. In some instances that may be the case, but far more often seduction is really just selling yourself effectively by manipulating the emotions and psychologies of others. Politicians, religious leaders, salesmen, etc. are all seducers of varying shades. There’s a very blurry line between influence and seduction, but in both cases there’s a willing participant always present. No seduction, or call-to-action was ever consummated with a person who wasn’t already somewhat desirous of being seduced.

Advertisers have known this for years; the best seductions are the ones where the target isn’t aware of being seduced, plays a willing part in their own seduction and are so rapt in their own involvement that they’ll prefer pathological denial when confronted with having been seduced. To varying degrees, people have an innate, limbic level ego-preservation mechanism that protects them from the damages that humiliation might injure them with. No one likes to think that they could be so inured or naive (i.e. suckered) that they’d fall for a seduction, yet whenever they buy a lottery ticket their heads are filled with fantasies of what they’ll do with all that money.

So, given all of that, naturally no one is going to ever get any concrete, totally verifiable feedback as to what produced an effective seduction from the target that was seduced. That’s the subjective nature of all seduction – you can only draw your conclusions from what worked and what didn’t according to your own observations of your own goals, not the target’s.

For instance, I’d argue that it’s a rare woman who’ll admit to having been seduced by a man. It’s a point of pride for women to think that they have some preternatural ability (feminine wiles) to seduce men (really by virtue of having a vagina). And for those women who would admit to having been seduced, it’s always couched in a sense of complimenting herself for being a woman of such value who could attract a man capable of seducing her.

Bear in mind, everyone has Game. Even the worst beta AFC in the world believes his supplication, pedestalization and outright prostration for a woman will separate him from the rest of the herd of “other guys” and increase his appeal to her. Everyone of us, learned or not, has a Game in that we approach our sexual interests in the way we believe will best produce the desired result – sexual response. The average chump wouldn’t think to call it “seduction”, but his ‘Game’ that’s evolved, misguided as it may be, is still an effort in influence and persuasion over a girl to get to sexual response.

Learning from Failure

In terms of learning seduction, failure is more beneficial than success, and this is exactly what guys fear because failure comes in the form of rejection, or in the case of the already committed chump, a fear of rejection. The young AFC will rely on a deductive reasoning (as most males do) which plots something like this:

I have a physical need for sex -> Women have the sex I need -> I must find out what women require for their sexuality -> I ask women what prerequisites they require for this exchange -> I must model my personality, behavior and ambitions to best exemplify these prerequisites -> I must perform these behaviors for her approval -> I get sex.

This is simple male logic and ultimately self-destructive because the women he petitions find it easier to require the dictates of social contrivances that they feel should be expected of him (and modified by their own set of contrivances) than to actually give him the honest truth which would likely set him on his ass in rejection, but moreover would help him better learn how to genuinely develop his own identity.

It’s this failure that teaches most accurately. On several occasions I’ve advised guys to be more wary of their successes than thier failures. Men meticulously pore over and analyze the minute details of why a date went sour or why a woman cheated on or LJBFed them, but the moment they F-Close for the first time, the minute they taste that sweet successs they’ve been aching for so long to achieve, the story changes to “OK Rollo, thanks for all of your help, I can take it from here.” I can think of at least 4 recovering chumps I’ve personally counseled that aped the behavior well enough to get their “ONE” dream girl then crashed and burned in exactly the way I warned them they would because they never paused to question why they succeeded.

The goal of their ambition was more important than the process of understanding how they came to achieve it.

When I was counseling, the single most common complaint I heard from older AFCs was how they got a “raw deal” for doing everything that was expected from them. They did, to the letter, everything that they thought women expected of them. They were “good guys”, they played by the rules (women had set for them), they weren’t ‘Players’, they paid their bills, they were “Supportive®”, sacrificed their own ambitions to benefit their wives and children, they fed the dog and took out the garbage; but these guys were miserable because the fear of rejection, the “I’d lose her for sure if I rock the boat” scarcity mentality was more powerful than recognizing a deficit in appreciation from their wives for the life-sacrifices they made in order to keep the peace and ensure a steady supply of mediocre sexual exchange.

However, for all of their complaints and commiserations they never stopped to look at the process of events that brought them to their condition. The ‘success’ of having found a woman who’d marry them was all that was important to them at the time. Much of that “don’t question it” mentality was due to them having a Scarcity Mentality, but as their relationships decayed the focus became more about repairing it and themselves rather than untangling the process of events that contributed to it. The car was running, the TV came on when they hit the power button, and that’s all that mattered – it’s only when the car breaks down and the TV wont come on that they finally get to the nuts and bolts.

Romantic seduction has never been one-size-fits-all. In fact this is expressly spelled out in the introduction of the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene (required reading for Rational Readers). A lot of men forget what the ‘A’ means in PUA – artist. You can’t just blindly expect one style of seduction to work for all types of women – that’s why it’s called an Art. Being a good artist of any sort requires time, discipline, an ability to improvise, creation, adaptation, attention to detail, etc. There are certain basic foundational principles women adhere to (hypergamy being the most universal) either due to social convention or biology, but the good seductive artist uses these as a basis for an individual seduction. For instance, the seduction of a church mouse and a goth chick require two separate seductive approaches, but they’ll both be influenced by the underlying influences common to all women (i.e. hypergamy, dominance, etc.). A Man’s Alpha prowess will appeal to those biological foundations, but his approach in seduction needs to be measured by the conditions presented by his target.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Morpheus II
Guest

I think one of the most important things in this post to is that no one approach fits all women and to remember the foundations of biological influences of hypergamy and dominance. I think a lot of people get are still just looking for techniques and are not working on internalizing any qualities needed to increase the chances of seduction of their target(s).

Socialkenny
Guest

Dude on Sosuave had some solid questions. Judging from the real meaning of “to seduce”,it’s basically to mislead,lead one astray. Following that true meaning,I as a PUA most times have to try to mislead women into sleeping with me. Not only PUA’s do this,but naturals and natural players also. But the underlying theme playing here is that the target knows what’s up.She is just as much in control of the seduction process as the man.In fact,she’s probably 75% in charge of what goes down.Meaning,she wants to fuck but has to put up that front because of social protocol. As far… Read more »

nexus
Guest
nexus

Totally agree. If you click with a girl, I would argue that ‘seduction’ isn’t even strictly necessary. You just need to avoid making mistakes that would cause the girl’s ‘alarm bells’ to ring and this comes from experience. The more experience the girl has, the more alarm bells she will have developed, but also the more likely she is to be looking for long term compatibility, in the knowledge that her sexual value is declining. If I don’t feel a strong attraction to a girl, I don’t bother spending too much time on her, because chances are she’ll sense the… Read more »

Team-Red
Guest
Team-Red

“Take time to deliberate, but when the time for action has arrived, stop thinking and go in.” ~Napoleon Bonaparte Recognize if a woman is interested, then take the necessary actions to get her into your bed. Your plans must be precise, without delay, and committed. Waste little time by doing what society has taught you to do in letting her get to know you. The longer you hesitate, the more likely that attraction evaporates. I wasted so much time and money over the years thinking I needed to entertain women before sleeping with them. Now I make them entertain me… Read more »

Cyrus
Guest
Cyrus

still, why do I Seem to be able to get with some extremely hot girls, high in value, but still crash and burn with some less appealings 6s an 7s?

I’ve always considered 7s harder to game than 8s and 9s, haven’t really approached a dime yet. Is it really game though? Maybe it’s because it’s 8:45AM but you kind of lost me on this one ere Rollo, am quite confused

Cream
Guest
Cream

A by-product of evolution has been the fact that while men’s tastes for women are more or less standardized, women’s tastes for men are all over the place. That helps weed out losers and gives chances for children to acquire potential new beneficial traits to be selected by evolution. The human race is benefited by this approach. A consequence of this is that you may fit the blueprint of a specific woman much better than another woman’s. (Irrespective of the looks of these women). Some women are programmed to like you more, for your traits appeal more to her, perhaps… Read more »

Socialkenny
Guest

@Nexus-Seems like you’re denying seduction being real.

No matter how much you click with a girl,as the guy,you still have to run seduction game.

Naturals or guys who know nothing of seduction still run a format to getting laid.

So don’t think that because the chic is digging you,you can feel free to go Beta and not seduce her.

To beat LMR takes tactics,technique,routine,etc.No matter how much a target is feeling you,some form of LMR is almost inevitable,which requires game/seduction skills in the seduction phase to get the notch.

Cyrus
Guest
Cyrus

This makes a lot of sense. In the end, is that all game is to you? Making a sell on a potential buyer who is on the fence? Some would disagree on that note. Personally, I agree. The hottest girl I ever dated – solid 9.5 was during my more “AFC” days although I had seen the truth behind the matrix before. I didn’t have game, yet she fell head over heels for me. 3 years later I’m 22, bigger, strong, more attractive, more confident. Game has improved vastly, but I’m still not seeing any other 9s, that’s for sure.… Read more »

nexus
Guest
nexus

Haha yeah I suppose its become natural to me now! All I’m saying is that my methods seem to be more effective on girls that I’m genuinely interested in, rather than girls I just want to fuck for the hell of it. I was a ‘natural’ to begin with but used to use alcohol to support my game and frequency in the field (i.e. going to clubs all the time). When my tolerance for alcohol and therefore my social circle died is when I found out about the community. Even before I knew about ‘game’ I still had some. For… Read more »

The Shocker
Guest
The Shocker

PUH – pick up hobbyist

Socialkenny
Guest

@Nexus-Well I knew Rollo’s point.

As I said in my 1st.comment;it’s hard to judge.

At the end of the day,the woman makes the decision to give up the vagina or not.But she won’t give it to to a guy who lacks skills.So it all depends.

As far as genuity;you’re right.If I solely try picking up a girl just because I wanna bang her,or just because she’s available;I will crash and burn lol!I’ve notice that for years now in my game.But when I’m genuinely into the HB,my chances of laying her is sky high.

Almacantar
Guest
Almacantar

FFY had a good post about this the other day: http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/good-looking-dude-game-the-tactical-compliment/ In general, people that are in gray areas between one defined category and another (in this case the spectrum from cute to hot) tend to have more anxiety about their place and therefore require some form of positive acknowledgement to assuage their egos, particularly if they perceive the other person in the interaction to be higher status than they are. Imagine someone like Johnny Depp trying to pick up a 5; the 5, if she was aware of her own value, would probably be more than a bit skeptical… Read more »

Hero
Guest
Hero

One of the mistakes made in thinking about this is assuming that women are, by default, not interested. I think the opposite is true. Women are very social creatures and are interested in communication and connections. As we know, they are also very practiced at disqualification and are quick to do so but that is only after realizing that they are not interested. One of the more powerful things I read said something like “women are just waiting for something interesting to happen to break them out of the boredom of their day”. I think by default they are open… Read more »

BlackCat
Guest
BlackCat

I think there is “seduction” that is just a catch-all term for trying to make oneself attractive to the opposite sex, and “seduction as manipulation” which includes things like hard NLP, outright lying with intent to deceive, and advanced sales techniques using applied psychological principles that have been shown to effectively alter choices made by unaware targets. Note that even manipulative seduction does not work all or even most of the time, and much still depends on the choice of the seducee, but it still might be considered the “dark side”.

Marellus
Guest

Rollo.

First, thanks for a great post.

Now you mentioned Robert Greene’s book in your post, and I am busy reading it now. From that book, I have one question :

How do you deal with a Coquette ?

What works against a Coquette ?

Thanks for any help.

gregg
Guest
gregg

We men, should be pursuing clarity, truth and freedom. Attraction is a very serious matter – it directly sets the structure of future humans – children. This thing has to deal with imune system, DNA, the well being of future generation. First question for us is – what is the quality of my genes? We have to answer this one honestly. Other question is – what can I do with those genes? What is my league? And the fundamental question is – can we succeed in seducing someone to whom we are NOT attractive? You know, there is no “chemistry”,… Read more »

The One Reason
Guest
The One Reason

I think by default they are open and hoping that they will be interested in you but quick to judge and disqualify. I guess I’m with Roosh here (as per “Day Bang”) that women know pretty much right away whether they have any sexual interest in the man; especially if the scenario is a daytime one, with her usually more wary mindset. (And this leads to a general pet peeve in ‘sphere comment threads: many times having read an action description/breakdown only to realize that it was specifically about a night game scenario, whereas I by default think in day… Read more »

colonelcrimson
Guest

Love the registered trademark logo after “Supportive.” Made my morning.

Now, off to go use my artistry on some church mice. I will keep this advice in mind.

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

1) The PUA community used to focus a lot on trying to figure out how to turn around any situation no matter how impossible it seemed. Whether it was a cold initial reception, active hatred by the girl, a flakey number, a girl who landed a BF, married women etc etc. This benefitted the knowledge-base a LOT. It’s because of trying to plow through or smoothly recover from these situations that we broke through a lot of limiting beliefs society has about attraction. We know now that a girl rejecting you can simply be a shit-test she secretly hopes you… Read more »

Morpheus II
Guest

YaReally’s post just shed some light on somethings I’ve been thinking about. Props to you man

AlphaWhiskey
Guest
AlphaWhiskey

Agree with all that man. Game will help but ultimately there is a social hierarchy, much of which I believe is dictated by genes (seems like researchers are corroborating this more and more). It’s just the bitch of Evolution. It’s good to be near the top though…MuhahaHAHAHAHA

Also, your last paragraph reminded me of the guy in the comments here who made 3000 approaches and banged 9 girls. I shared your respect when he posted that:

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/perceptions/

AlphaWhiskey
Guest
AlphaWhiskey

Super solid.

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Dean
Guest
Dean

First off I am going to say that when I first read about “taking the red pill” I thought it was all bullsh!t. I thought here are some guys who have been hurt and are now woman haters and bashers. Then a few days later as i was walking around I could see the examples of “Beta Males” and AFC (myself included). At my job,hearing my friends complain about their women/wives/GFs, in the stores, the gym; wherever. Then I went back and read and clicked on posts like the “G Manifesto”, “The Lifestyle” and even that Big Game blog one.… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest
Rollo Tomassi
krauserpua
Guest

I try to filter girls into Yes / No / Maybe as soon as possible. Yes girls are about leading and not fucking up, No girls are to be screened out as soon as possible. All the skill of game is in Maybe.

The One Reason
Guest
The One Reason

Myself: But the constant willingness to engage with the girls and have interest to endure the hours of conversation to convert those on the fence is indeed something that I personally have to improve upon. To elaborate on this, a case in point: I’ve now started a holiday in Sunny Scotland and on departure, on the airport bus to the plane, I hit a very bodilicious girl (think young Jennifer Hawkins) standing next to me (I was sitting) with a neg about her wearing shades when it was raining outside. We had a short give-and-take as she immediately went along,… Read more »

Djeed
Guest
Djeed

I do not understand. If you really have a mindset of abundance… What the hell do you care? You go for everything with the right attitude, sexual but not giving a shit about rejection. You go for the yes, for the noes, for the maybes, take the ones that want you and keep being sexual with the rest. Isn’t that what it’s all about, desiring women?

Rebecca
Guest

Seduction is a mind game not a physical one. Sure it may end up with sexual gratification but seduction is to delay the gratification and maintain the sexual energy and tension for as long as possible .
And it isn’t about picking up girls, there can be seduction within a marriage, it isn’t just in the domain of singles.

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ShanksNes
Guest

Game is quantum mechanics. Kek kek kek..

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