75 comments

  1. i swear i just saw my adolescent life flash before my eyes. Every panel in this comic sans the second panel was me before game.

    After game, i stopped at the second panel and never looked back.

  2. Yep very good.

    Enjoyed this video from Athol’s blog – worth a watch if you haven’t seen it:

  3. Just heard the song Cruel To Be Kind by Nick Lowe. Haven’t thought about the lyrics to that song in a while. Speaks to the AFC experience…

    Oh, I can’t take another heartache,
    Though you say you’re my friend, I’m at my wits’ end!
    You say you’re love is bona fide,
    But that don’t coincide with the things that you do
    And when I ask you to be nice, you say

    You’ve gotta be
    Cruel to be kind in the right measure,
    Cruel to be kind it’s a very good sign,
    Cruel to be kind means that I love you,
    Baby, you’ve gotta be cruel to be kind.

    Well I do my best to understand dear,
    But you still mystify, and I want to know why.
    I pick myself up off the ground
    To have you knock me back down again and again!
    And when I ask you to explain, you say

    You’ve gotta be
    Cruel to be kind in the right measure,
    Cruel to be kind it’s a very good sign,
    Cruel to be kind means that I love you,
    Baby, you’ve gotta be cruel to be kind.

  4. Her: “I love you.”
    Me: “I love you too, Babe. But…”
    Her: “But what?”
    Me: “If you fuck up, I’ll replace you.”
    Her: “Uh…ok.”
    Me: “But I DO love you. You believe that, don’t you?”
    Her: “Of course… um.” hamster hamster hamster hamster hamster

    Cue zero resistance sessy-time.

    Thank you red pill. Thank you so much.

  5. Yep, this isn’t even a parody, stereotype or exaggeration for comedic effect. That’s how the majority of guys think. Because of female physical and emotional weakness, endearing naivety, sensitivity, vulnerability, cute silliness, powerful sexuality, we imagine them as morally innocent and pure.

    We wish them to be, we need them to be morally pure in this harsh life. The foundation of game is letting that false hope go and dealing with reality, and adapting to it. Women can be just as vicious, cruel and calculating as men, and even more so when we add in their cunning and sneaky passive aggressive nature.

    Cleanse the disappointment and bitterness from your system and adapt. The closer you get to doing that the more you can appreciate the charming and lovely feminine attributes listed in the first paragraph, and enjoy women for what they truly are. An expertly “gamed” woman is fun to be around.

  6. CastleD
    July 19th, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    “Yep, this isn’t even a parody, stereotype or exaggeration for comedic effect. That’s how the majority of guys think. Because of female physical and emotional weakness, endearing naivety, sensitivity, vulnerability, cute silliness, powerful sexuality, we imagine them as morally innocent and pure.

    We wish them to be, we need them to be morally pure in this harsh life. The foundation of game is letting that false hope go and dealing with reality, and adapting to it. Women can be just as vicious, cruel and calculating as men, and even more so when we add in their cunning and sneaky passive aggressive nature.

    Cleanse the disappointment and bitterness from your system and adapt. The closer you get to doing that the more you can appreciate the charming and lovely feminine attributes listed in the first paragraph, and enjoy women for what they truly are. An expertly “gamed” woman is fun to be around.”

    No shit. I love being around my wife. Especially since I’ve taken the red pill. Good summary. Bravo.

  7. It’s “the free drinks dynamic”. Girls want the power to entice you with the promise of sex, without actually promising sex.

    Some 21 going on 15 years old student tried to play me for a chump last week. I’d seen her on a dating site, and hit her up for a date. She tried to change plans at the last minute, having me meet her and all her friends at her dorm, and then stay in, rather than meeting me at a bar/restaurant. Of course I passed on that, rescheduled, and then didn’t call her to confirm the rescheduled date. A week later I get a text asking to hook up, which went ignored for a few days. And then she asks for money for a new phone.

    “Sure, no problem. Just have sex with me first.”

    “I’m sorry mister, I don’t do that.”

    “Ya, and I don’t give money to people I don’t know”.

    What, I’m supposed to give her money just on the off chance that it might endear me to her enough that I might maybe get some chance to one day get closer to fucking her?

    Girls play men for chumps. No, I’m not fixing your flat tire unless you are fucking me. I don’t pay for the option to maybe one day date.

    And another girl asked me out a few weeks ago, and I told her “I don’t keep girls as friends, actually. It’s not good if one of us wants more. I played with your pussy three times and you didn’t even give me a blow job.”

    You want to extract time and attention from me for what in return? Hope? Piss or get off the pot.

  8. Wow.

    Just wow.

    That comic about sums up my adolescence.

    Also sums up being single throughout my early twenties.

    Also sums up my attitude in relationships until about a year and a half ago, when I discovered sites like this.

    Holy shit was I ever a clueless chump.

  9. This is a great example of a sugar-coated red pill – it contains undiluted red pill teachings, stated very blankly, but in a somehow socially acceptable form.

    Very often, I am tempted to introduce friends and acquaintances to the manosphere, but am all too aware that if I direct them to something a little too forcefully argued, they will balk.

    It would be interesting to put together a list of links that could serve as a deviously uncontroversial introduction to red pill thinking. I can think of two types of writings that would fit the bill: 1) Posts that illuminate very specific phenomena that the reader will have experienced first hand, but that are never mentioned outside of the manosphere (e.g. Shit tests). You start convincing them by being able to explain otherwise unfathomable experiences. 2) Authors like xkcd who can somehow couch these things in apparently neutral language. Recently I came across posts by a “dating expert” called Jeremy Nicholson who very exactly described red pill theories in a mysteriously bland, acceptable form (not a bad thing for newbies). As more and more red pill knowledge filters out into the mainstream, there will be more and more passageways of this kind (e.g. Athol Kay).

    Very soon afterwards, these initiates will be able to graduate to more powerful capsules of concentrated red pill thought (paging Doctor Rollo…) – and to the more recreational, psychedelic variety of red pill ecstasy (Heartiste).

  10. First of all, love xkcd. ❤ Jaromaenner is right – having more of these "neutral" introductions to the red pill would be a great way to get a lot more people on board. As a woman who went from Sheila Gregoire, to Dalrock, to Roissy, wow! At Roissy, I almost turned back! Thank goodness I didn't give it up, since I love this blog! (Yay psychology!)

    Second, this is totally off topic, but I don't know where else to put this. I need Dr. Rollo's help! The nutshell is, my boyfriend and I are both early twennies, and from a game/PUA perspective we've done everything wrong and bass-awkwards, but there's chemistry, there's commitment, etc.

    My problem is that _I_ am the one wanting to have sex, while he has very little drive. I've tried to look at the archives but nothing seemed right – I recognize this isn't a common problem, or what you're really focused on here, but most "advice blogs" are, of course, fem-centric and no help. I'm young, I'm lucky enough to be lean (though not "fit" – I weigh 120lbs but don't work out or anything), and I'm no dog face (maybe a 6.5-7ish? Which I guess means actually a 6?). He insists that he doesn't much like or get much affected by "sexy clothes" other than the odd exception. I can provide more information if it would help, but I don't want to make this longer than it is, since I'm not sure this is even the right place to ask! Thanks for reading!

  11. @peoplegrowing , that’s an interesting question, but no matter how much info you give it’s still going to be difficult to have enough info to make a helpful comment.

    I may be able to ask helpful questions though. Why are you with the guy if the sexual chemistry is tepid? Have you considered just getting a new guy?

  12. @xsplat: First of all, thanks for the response. I think your questions are meant rhetorically, but I’ll give an answer just in case.

    First, although there’s not much sex, we have great chemistry in everything else. He claims he’s never had a very high drive, which I am willing to believe, based on what I know of him. Also, I think that is something which will improve once he is able to get counseling (he’s genetically predisposed to bipolar and depression and had a pretty rough childhood). Basically, I think this is an area which, when he gets around to it, will improve, but we have collectively had bigger fish to fry first. I came here hoping maybe other men would have ideas for ways I can help him sooner rather than later, and take the pressure off by taking the initiative, and not putting the burden on HIM.

    As for considering getting a new guy? Well, yes and no. Honestly, I am already married to him “in my mind” if you will – we’ve dated 3 years and lived together 2. I “dated” one guy in high school (we only really hung out twice at a friend’s and then called it off mutually) and slept with 2 guys afterwards (sex was not “bad” but I realized that I wanted more emotional connection and refrained from having any more sex), and then this guy, so he’s been my only real relationship. There’s an element of “fixer-upper” that was certainly part of my initial interest, but I believe I have moved beyond that. There has been one guy that’s caught my eye since (as a serious LTR contender, and not just a “he’d be fun for a while!”) but I want to stick it out for two big reasons that I can pin down:
    1. I don’t want to be one of “those girls” – the current love-him-and-leave-him generation. My exposure to the manosphere helped me codify this feeling into words, and solidified it, but it was there before.
    2. I do still love him; I know he loves me, and I know historically people have managed to stay together through worse. When we do have sex, it’s great, it’s just not very frequent.

  13. @peoplegrowing

    You are dissatisfied with aspects of who he is.

    My advice would be to stop trying to change someone as you will never succeed and find another guy who meets your needs. Focus only on what YOU can change.

  14. Bluelions advice is sound.

    If you were a man asking for advice giving the exact same backstory, many would advise you to either fix the problem or leave.

    You might not be able to fix this problem.

    And don’t kid yourself that it is minor.

    Unless it is? For some women, sex can be a trivial concern.

    But for others – like the kinds I prefer to date it is a very major, indeed a primary – no THE primary component of the relationship.

    It’s true that men have widely varying libidos. As do women. A mismatch is never a good thing.

    I’ve heard that people have emotional set points for happiness. Some of us are usually cheerful, some usually sour, and some have bouts of debilitating depression alternating with periods of mania. I suspect that we also have set points of horniness. I can have periods of being nearly constantly horny, and with a girl who is up for it will fuck a minimum of 4 hours a day (thrusting time, not cuddle time), with full days in bed on the weekends. Some guys prefer once a week.

    Be selfish about this. Don’t wonder what the neighbours will think. Don’t try to be a good girl. He’ll get over you.

  15. @ people:

    Guys with a low sex drive typically have low testosterone levels. Would you describe your guy as being low-energy, frequently unmotivated, and prone to fits of moodyness? Testosterone suppliments aren’t available over the counter, but if all of the above are due to low T it’s well worth a trip to the doctor to fix.

    I do something similar for my guy friends whenever they’re in a low-T part of their life (you can tell with a bit of experience). I just bring ’em to my kickboxing gym and make the guys lift weights and punch someone in the face.

    Lifting weights triggers testosterone production, as does phyiscal competition with other males. Plus, fighting is a HUGE adrenaline rush, which is a huge aphrodisiac in guys.

    One thing you should do is compliment him subtly on his more masculine traits, whatever they might be. Often times this sort of thing is made worse by psychological problems. If your guy thinks you percieve him as less manly, he’ll act less manly, including a lower sex drive. Basically, you have to frame him as masculine man, and hold it till he accepts that frame.

    One last thing I can reccomend is a Chinese herbal supliment I learned about while living in Shanghai. It’s called Horny Goat Weed. I’ve got no personal experience with it, but my chinese friends say it blows viagra out of the water. Per their advice, get the oil extracted stuff, rather than the water extracted. They say it’s a more traditional method that works better.

    As for the comic itself.
    I’ve always loved XKCDs take on girls. The guy he portrays is practically the king-omega. Too afraid of rejection to even TRY for a relationship with his oneitis girl. Poor bastard.

  16. If you really love him I suggest you hold on perhaps another year, insist on him getting counselling (when a man doesn’t want sex I would personally put it down to one of four things a) gay b) just not that into you c) affair d) depression e) stress..correct me if I’m wrong guys)…it sounds like he might be depressed or have some intimacy issues arising from his troubled childhood. If so he needs to see a professional, you cannot fix him..you swooping in there to try and fix him is called codependency and it sucks. Let him know that you love him but tel him that he needs to get it sorted out. As a woman who wasted her early twenties trying to put the spark into a dying relationship..waste no more than one year without tangible results. It will save you future stress.

  17. S. Since you asked, I’ll correct you politely.

    a) gay b) not that into you and c) affair do not qualify as a man who doesn’t want sex. He does, he just wants it with someone else.

  18. Younin’s,
    There’s a movie y’all should watch.

    “Last American Virgin”

    That is all.

  19. @peoplegrowing – you mention that he’s got some mental health issues. That could have something to do with low drive. On the other hand, you may be in a tragic situation where you guys fit really well together *but* he’s not physically attracted to you or maybe he just has lower sex drive than you. Both may function as poison to your relationship later on. You sound like a nice girl. The solution is pretty simple – you either accept who he is, find out what is changeable and work with him to the extent he really desires to change; or move on (civilly, as kindly as such things can be done, but making a clean break) and find somebody who is a better fit for you.

    I do know a couple, both nice folks and divorced, where the girl sort of turned around the guy’s sex life. It was dead and he thought his wedding tackle didn’t work any more at age 40. In short, she spent a year throwing so much p at him, he couldn’t see straight – this included exploring some mildly kinky stuff like leather, light bondage, etc. They are an extremely happily married couple now with two young kids. I think they got rid of the leather goods but are still pretty active in the bedroom from what he says. You’ll notice that her revitalization of him took some serious girl game on her part – but they were both pretty beta in their outlook and frankly he felt like a complete neuter for a long time due to the emasculating bitch he had stuck with in a crap marriage for 12 years. I don’t think it’s impossible to change, but you need to figure out whether your guy has it in him to change (like my buddy’s inner Marquis de Sade, that he’d never met before, but who showed up the first time his new girl slapped his ass hard) or whether he just doesn’t have it in him. As the old maxim goes, men marry women hoping they’ll never change; women marry men hoping to change them; both are usually sorely disappointed.

  20. You know, I’ve never been able to figure out the XKCD guy. A lot of his comics have the same “beta mentality” as this one, but the possibility is always there that he’s actually mocking the beta.

    There’s also the gender imbalance. Whenever he needs a hacker in his comics he almost always uses a woman (who usually bests the men). There’s a multi-part comic about a “guru hacker mom” who raises a “guru hacker daughter”, for instance. We all know that this is in stark contrast with reality. Anyone ever work in software development? Sausage fest. The few women who ARE there don’t display the kind of obsessiveness required to become extremely technically proficient (this is not a knock on women, but a statement of fact). Women flock to the less technical roles, like project manager etc.

    Are these nerdy girls a representation of the author’s dreams? Or is he simply using them because he knows his audience (nerdy guys) like to fantasize about nerdy girls?

  21. http://xkcd.com/1027/

    Sorry to say this, but the XKCD author is ultimately beneath contempt. The subtext here is that he thinks all nerds who weren’t lucky enough to be able to find a girl by “being themselves” should be mocked for trying to improve their lot.

  22. Your arguments are well constructed and offer a good alternative to our currently accepted world view, and it has really changed the way I see things, but I have this question to both you, and anyone who has an answer as I have been struggling with it lately:

    Essentially the argument can be boiled down to this that girls have overinflated value, and guys placating to that is a mistake, and an alpha/player will not. But the problem I have, is isnt the very nature of seeking sex from a girl ultimately giving HER power, because whether you take it, convince it, steal it, she is still your goal. Every minute, every hour that is spent gaming a girl, is one less you are making money, discovering truth, living your life.

    Would not the most ‘badass’ guy be the one who does not need women in any form in his life?

  23. @DB, yeah. Most of his stuff looks pretty rotten. After reading some others of his, perhaps the one posted in the OP could be looked at through a feminist lens. This lesser guy deserve to be shamed because he never really had the special little princess’ best interests in his heart, only his own selfish man desires. If he had been a better man and had given her what she really wanted she would have chosen to bless him with her spoiled poes.

    Fuck, I can’t believe I just wrote that. Time to wash my eyes out with soap…

  24. @HolySword:

    It is worthwhile to know what methods of seeking sex and companionship are actually effective, and what methods are not. You want to find a happy medium where you’re getting what you want in your interactions with girl(s)–this typically means giving them *less* power than you would by being a “nice guy”, but it usually does not mean letting them have none at all. (Your mileage may vary, but I can’t even stand to sleep with a girl who isn’t capable of challenging me, let alone have a relationship with one.)

    I have no problem with hermits, but pretty much by definition (with a few weird, scary exceptions) they are irrelevant to society in the long run.

  25. “Would not the most ‘badass’ guy be the one who does not need women in any form in his life?”

    Even if that were “true”, who cares? Most guys who study game aren’t studying to be bad ass. They studying to get laid.

    If I wasn’t in SE Asia, I’d just as soon use your concept of badass to clean my ass. Over here we use water.

    I mean, really. Who cares?

  26. I can think of three white knight stories. In all three cases, the women had a child from a previous marriage or relationship. In one case the woman was seven years older, in another she was five years older, and in the third they are the same age. None of these couples have had additional children together. The last scenario has, in my opinion, the highest chance of happiness in the long run. It is truly a sweet story of the high school guy who watched the girl he liked go for the bad boy. He stayed in orbit enough to be there when it crumbled and now they are together and to all appearances, quite happy.

  27. ahahah. Clever.

    But not as clever as the following comment isn’t.

    “But he doesn’t respect you!” = “But I don’t respect myself!”

  28. Hey guys –

    I just wanted to thank everyone who had ideas for me. As Diego pointed out (kinda) I know this isn’t exactly the perfect place, but I really appreciate getting some honest male feedback. My BF already intends to see a counselor (he was working on that even before we met, so it’s not even just me being a battle axe :P), and I know better than to think that I can “fix him” – but what I wanted, and got, was advice for how I can help him and smooth the way for him. Sorry if that wasn’t quite clear in my initial post. So, yes, sincere appreciation!

  29. The nutshell is, my boyfriend and I are both early twenties, and from a game/PUA perspective we’ve done everything wrong and bass-awkwards, but there’s chemistry, there’s commitment, etc.

    First of all, ignore all advice from women. (Commenter “S” is a woman.)

    Second, your boyfriend is classic beta. Read as much as you can about their assumptions and behavior.

    Third — and this is an area where the manosphere is deficient — a woman has to take charge of her man’s betatude. It is your job to inspire him to be the man you want him (and he wants himself) to be. Your relationship thus far has been based on an untenable lie. Forget delusions of “chemistry.” Your bond is sealed in mutual weakness.

    Yes, when your man gets stronger, you may be left in the dust. But that is the risk you have to take to transcend the faulty basis of your relationship. Send him to these sites, encourage him to man himself up, berate him for his pussified attitude until he finds the sack to physically beat you, and then strive to become worthy of his newfound manliness.

    You want a red-pill wake up? It is going to hurt. Or you two “commit” love-birds go swallow the blue pill, and sweet dreams until your late-twenties disaster leads to a life tragedy, the causes of which you will only be vaguely aware.

    Otherwise, you and I will find each other in a bar or a coffee shop somewhere, and through your hypergamous “oopsies” you will allow a man like me wipe the slate clean for you.

    Matt

  30. S wrote:

    This strip reminded me of this movie scene…

    Casino is Scorcese’s best film. Totally underrated because it resembled and came hard on the heels of his second best, Goodfellas.

  31. @King A (Matthew King),

    I was watching it today and immediately thought back to the strip above..Robert De Niro as the man dedicated to the woman who’s not in love with him. Well..

  32. GeishaKate wrote:

    It is truly a sweet story of the high school guy who watched the girl he liked go for the bad boy. He stayed in orbit enough to be there when it crumbled and now they are together and to all appearances, quite happy.

    A “sweet story”? No, a tragedy. A typical, unnecessary, repulsive beta tragedy.

    “Quite happy”? There are more important matters in life than happiness. One of them is dignity. No woman, no matter how hard he crushed on her, no matter how patient his orbiting had been, is worth the abdication of manhood required of making that relationship “work.” Another beta who didn’t know her growing up would be more dignified, and that maybe would be a reasonable foundation for long-term success.

    But in his case, he stepped into the relationship as the same boy he was in HS, while she and her babydaddy matured. This sloppy-seconds scenario is convenient for the broad busted by a bad-boy, but that justification will quickly run its course when she needs a man again, rather than an attentive little brother.

    This is what happens when women attempt to judge betas. It is impossible for a walking womb to reconcile her front and hind brains. They mistake contentment, consistency, and security for virtue (or worse, “happiness”), and they are sneak-attacked by tingles and weak willpower. It is safest to assume that a woman can never properly estimate her vulnerabilities. And when a woman contemplates another woman’s predicament, the delusions are squared.

    I’m not calling you out in particular, Geisha, but you provided a prime example of female deficiency leading to general dysfunction. The manosphere notices that women both want their beta reliability-cake and eat the alpha tingles too, and they see this as a hypocrisy to be exploited. MRAs insist they choose one or the other. Women advocate situational morality; hot and young, go with the tingles; old and wall-bound, settle with the beta (but keep your divorce powder dry and eye alpha targets of opportunity).

    None of these camps understand the fourth way, which is the way of the alpha female. Yes, men crave variety, and alpha males have the opportunity to pursue it. But an alpha female of sufficient virtue can demand exclusivity without turning him into a castrated beta. It would have to be an enormous virtue — virginity, youth, couth, obedience, and beauty — to rope the best men, but it is theoretically possible. In this the slutocracy, even average men can carve out a few options with minimal efforts at game. So the project is even harder for girls wanting both fidelity and alpha.

    In fact, the project is so hard that it is widely considered impossible, and therefore left unattempted. To modify Chesterton, it’s not that this reconciliation has been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried. But to attempt a sustainable synthesis of alpha and fidelity would require of women two tasks that seem impossible: 1) To change the culture at large; and 2) To change the culture beginning with themselves.

    While #1 may share wide responsibility for its failure, #2 is up to individual blame. You change men’s behavior by changing your fellow women’s. And you change women’s behavior by first changing your own. That means instead of focusing on the men’s choices (one defers from orbit, the other goes “bad boy”), focus on the woman’s.

    Why is it important for the woman to take primary responsibility? Because her life choices come first, in her youth, by biological and aesthetic necessity, whereas a man’s may be deferred to later. The woman did not require fidelity from the bad boy — who fathered a child with her — before transferring her most precious asset to him. Neither did she save that asset for the beta man whose instinct was faithfulness. She irrationally wanted both. That irrationality bifurcates men into the two types we know, making it impossible to reconcile the best attributes into one.

    So, your innocuous declaration of happiness on behalf of a reformed slut and her white knight groupie has further implications than you or the typical woman realizes. It is a furtherance of the feminist myth of cake-eating and -having, and that myth is the cause of the inevitable unhappiness you decry, in the absence of reconciling the mutually reinforcing strengths of fidelity and alphatude. When women asked us to specialize, men began specializing, separating out strengths into male types. When women ask us to reconcile the two, we will reconcile. The virtues are not contradictory.

    Matt

  33. “It is a furtherance of the feminist myth of cake-eating and -having,”

    It is nothing of the kind. It is acknowledgement of the rarity of a person finding a second chance at happiness. Don’t worry, he is “sufficiently” alpha and mocks her ruthlessly to her great enjoyment.

    ” But an alpha female of sufficient virtue can demand exclusivity without turning him into a castrated beta.”

    I’ve never found demands to be particularly effective. The only way to know someone wants something for sure is if they offer it themselves of their own volition.

    ” When women ask us to reconcile the two, we will reconcile. ”

    Since you seem in the mood to pontificate, just how is this done, oh wise one.

  34. @Matt King:

    Thanks for your reply, but, honestly, I kinda feel like I am doing those things? I specifically stated I was blowing off fem-centric marriage advice blogs and coming to an “unlikely” place like this to get male feedback. The reason I cam here was to figure out everything that _I_ could do to help him feel more like a man, to be more confident and more sexual (which, I think once the ball gets rolling, should be a positive feedback loop – that’s why I focused on sex for now, figuring that would help to encourage and drive other manliness feelings). I accept that, as other posters told me, I can’t force him to do something he doesn’t have drive to do already, but at the same time I know that doesn’t mean I can’t help him if he DOES want those things.

    You say I need to take charge and push him to drop his betatude – I agree. Now what? XD I do try to encourage him all I can, and to do it in a man-affirming way and not a parent-child way (how disastrous would that be!). I go on about how hot he is whenever he’s doing something manly, I touch him all the time (both girly-comfort touch and also sexy-times-I-wanna-piece-of-that-ego touch). I have tried to drop my own defensiveness and follow him whenever he wants to lead (even when he’s just trying to joke or get a rise out of me) so that he knows I trust in his ability.

    Unfortunately, he’s losing his job, so I feel like pure confidence mongering won’t be so effective now – again, that’s why I targeted sex. I’ve read plenty here and elsewhere about how key that is to self-esteem for guys, how big a deal, and also the assorted stress and tension relieving benefits. That’s not to say I’ve given up encouraging him, but it’s harder to do when he’s in a position that gives most healthy men a confidence pause, and still avoid slipping into parent-child almost-mockery.

  35. ” But an alpha female of sufficient virtue can demand exclusivity without turning him into a castrated beta.”

    I’ve never found demands to be particularly effective. The only way to know someone wants something for sure is if they offer it themselves of their own volition.

    -Indeed, the majority (at least, of what I’ve seen) of the manosphere indicates dumping a demanding woman. However, I think there is a difference between literally stating a demand (which doesn’t work well with men at all, and will have mixed results with women) and “demanding” in the same sense that you “demand respect” by virtue of being above disrespect. An alpha female would not have to literally, verbally demand a man to be faithful. Her virtue and unwillingness to settle for anything less would tacitly demand commitment. I daresay that is what Matt intended.

    Historically, we can see this has been possible with appropriate social sanctions to back it. What immediately comes to mind is the Victorian era. If you’ve ever read Pride and Prejudice (most of us ladies have, but I don’t expect any of the men to!) then look at Lydia’s behavior versus Jane’s. Jane never demanded anything, but she was above toying with or disrespecting, and was rewarded in the end for it. Lydia, on the other hand, showed through her actions that she was flighty and required no respect, and accordingly was not in the least respectable. Both young ladies were of a class that afforded at least a moderate amount of initial respect, and the gained or lost according to their personalities.

    These days, it will be harder for us ladies to make this tacit demand, as the bar is not set as high initially, but I believe Matt indicated he’s aware of that – that we need to make these demands individually, but also culturally.

  36. peoplegrowing wrote:

    I think there is a difference between literally stating a demand (which doesn’t work well with men at all, and will have mixed results with women) and “demanding” in the same sense that you “demand respect” by virtue of being above disrespect. An alpha female would not have to literally, verbally demand a man to be faithful.

    Exactly. When I say “demands,” I don’t mean the feminist-inspired shrewery that encourages women to give shrill voice to every desire. I mean being worthy enough to inspire the fidelity of a strong man, or better put, to wordlessly convince a man to direct his strength toward your bond rather than toward other pursuits. Helen’s beauty was the “face that launched a thousand ships.” Men will do preposterous things to be associated with a woman’s grace. Work on your grace.

    The lady’s art is passivity. Any direct effort like “confidence mongering” is contrary to your sex. You are the object, you simply are. You are not the actor. You do not begin a manly program of action (female version of activity = “activism,” or acting for acting’s sake), you refine your virtues — beauty, patience, obedience, care. You cannot “monger” confidence. You can only be confident in him. The best way I can put it is, project an air of supreme serenity about who he is and what he is capable of being.

    I don’t have time to get into it, but when a person endures the slings and arrows of another person’s infidelity/transgressions, the sinner is more affected than the endurer. You bear his failures and weaknesses with equanimity, and if he has a conscience, he will endeavor to pay you back seventy times seven. If he doesn’t have a conscience, there is nothing to be salvaged from your relationship.

    As for specifics. I do not know you. I speak in generalities because I must. What more can you do? Inhabit your femininity. Enlist the service of faithful men around you, like fathers and brothers. Bond with like-minded sisters who can support you in this radically countercultural program. Avoid occasions where hypergamy can take over, and be suspicious of your control over yourself.

    When a woman establishes a preternatural poise, she makes demands with a glance. Her grace is overabundant, there to be taken by men worthy to forcibly seize it. Her skill is always indirectly applied. The more she mannishly attempts to assert herself, the more her worth is diminished.

    A foreign concept, I’m sure, in this feminist culture that preaches the opposite. But it is a concept that nature will force us to relearn.

    Matt

  37. It was not meant that way, Matt. I just don’t understand all this backlash against white knights. Sometimes a person just can’t appreciate another’s worth until some other event changes how they perceive them. This is usually not a change in the other person, although it can be; it is usually a change in the person doing the perceiving.

    For instance, time in knowing someone is a definite factor in how a person is viewed. Some people are more likeable as time goes by and others are less. Sometimes its an element of appearance that changes the perception: like when you suddenly realize your closest friend, who you always acknowledged as cute, is actually really hot. Does this mean they have somehow sacrificed their dignity by being in your life without being your boyfriend? No, it just means that circumstances have changed.

    Often perceptions shift when someone is hurt, like in the above cartoon. You realize, wow, this person is really good to me. Now if there was never any attraction/appreciation for the other person at all, yes, that is undignified. And the “white knight” is just getting used. What I’m talking about is truly falling in love with someone who had maybe been overlooked previously. Women will put off a guy because of their feelings for another (that is how we’re programmed, afterall). Then she may give that guy a shot and he generally passes- maybe because she didn’t like him soon enough- at which point she’s now ignoring someone else because she’s still hung up on the person she was previously keeping at bay.

    Its not easy from the woman’s point of view either. And it does get tiresome hearing everyone labelled as a slut when that is not necessarily the case. Not all women are malicious and vindictive manipulators, just as all men are not.

    I’ll try to be more careful with my words if you will do the same. “She speaks poniards and every word stabs.”- Benedick

  38. GK : I just don’t understand all this backlash against white knights.

    Haven’t entirely followed the dialogue up to this point but I wanted to address this specific statement in my own way .

    The way men view white knights is approximate to the way women view sluts. No matter how much a woman screws up or screws over the men in her life there will always be a white knight to take her in and hold her tight , always , at least until she hits the wall.

    Consciously or subconsciously women know this. White knights lower all mens value, because women know there will always be some poor sap who will pick them up, dust them off and treat them like gold.Regardless of the fact, said woman, to her own detriment, has habitually chosen jerks over nice guys.

    In overwhelming numbers women have decided that nice guy genes aren’t worth passing to the next generation, yet because of blue pill feminist programming there continue to be nice guys. Always there to offer women a fallback position rather than let women suffer the consequences of their irresponsible actions.

    Now let me flip it around.

    Tonight I could go out to a bar and be back in bed with a slut I met hours, or even minutes before. Or … I could call that nice, sweet girl I met at the grocery store last week who probably wont put out for at least 3-5 dates.

    What should I do ?

    See my point?
    Why would I buy any cows when there is so much milk to be had for free ?
    Why should I wine and dine a princess when I can bed a slut for the price of a breath mint.

    Why would a woman choose a nice guy when she knows he will still be there, patiently waiting for her, after all the jerks are done with her ?

  39. Simon: Thank you for your explanation. The way you described things in your opening paragraphs made sense to me.

  40. @ GeishaKate: “I’ll try to be more careful with my words if you will do the same.”

    Good luck with that one, dear. “King A (Matthew King)’s” entire schtick is based on the gratuitious, needless insult, leavened with arrogance and sprinkled with a dash of obscure, meaningless quotes. Asking him to be more careful with his words is like asking a bear to stop shitting in the woods. Ain’t gonna happen.

  41. King A’s opinions are very valuable to me, which is why it upsets me when we clash. It is too easy to become lax in manners with people one has become familiar and perhaps I tease too much.

  42. @ GeishaKate: I hope you read King A’s opinions for substance, not style. Trash is still trash, no matter how brightly colored the packaging.

  43. I just had a chat with a girl I’m gaming who’s constantly shit-testing. In one of our exchanges she was saying she wanted someone to “take care of me”. My response: “Spank your ass”. Women despise the thing they claim they most want. I never realized this until I was LBJF’d and rejected so many times. Game allows you to read the signs and understand better what needs to be done. I was a a big dance festival last weekend. Hottest girl there had been giving me IOI’s all weekend. I was dancing with all the hot women. Then at the very last set of the night on Saturday I asked this girl to dance and began gaming her. She was a photographer, so I asked how many good shots she got of me. She wanted to see my photos sits with me. Then i kissed her on the lips and she giggled. The old me would have been too “nice” for such a bold move.

  44. GeishaKate wrote:

    Sometimes a person just can’t appreciate another’s worth until some other event changes how they perceive them. This is usually not a change in the other person, although it can be; it is usually a change in the person doing the perceiving.

    Exactly the problem. Your femme-centric understanding of relationships presumes the female perception should be the controlling perception. It simply will not do for a woman to place her asset with the wrong caretaker and then suffer no consequence for her profligacy. The woman’s misperception creates and sustains the syndrome. She has to own up to it with more than an “oops,” and no man can accept that simple oops while maintaining his dignity. A real exchange of value must occur beyond a wizened girl saying, “I was young and stupid so let’s forget all that and roll back my cock odometer.”

    What’s more, beyond all perceptions, being a white knight is being weak — while claiming to be strong. That is why, as Simon Corso indicates, “White knights lower all mens value.” An expression of their weakness becomes defined as strength, while our strength is defined as “bad boy” or “asshole” or “douchebag.”

    True strength is to say, woman, you had your shot when you were a girl. There is still redemption, but it is not possible to regain your purity ex post facto — just as Christ still bears the scars in his glorified body. Insofar as white knights indulge this fantasy of born-again virginity they devalue virginity itself and give incentive to girls who otherwise would retain their asset to squander it at the first tingle.

    You see, your understanding of the dynamic (along with the typical woman’s) is not capacious enough for all of these many consequences of hypergamy. That’s what makes you a perpetual girl, and that’s why we react with an alacrity that seems out of proportion to the circumstance. You have no idea what you have done, nor what you are doing.

    [I]t does get tiresome hearing everyone labelled as a slut when that is not necessarily the case. Not all women are malicious and vindictive manipulators, just as all men are not.

    Women are unconsciously slutty because The Way of The Slut has been rechristened The Way of The Independent Woman. There is nothing “malicious,” “vindictive,” or “manipulat[ing]” about it. When you grow up Marie Antoinette, you will go to the guillotine still baffled why your executors didn’t just “eat cake.” Hypergamy has no conception of justice.

    The white knight is nice, and he is convenient, and he fits right in with the female trial-and-error gropings toward “happiness.” But he is an agent of injustice, both in what women deserve and in what men should be expected to sacrifice.

    Matt

  45. And, not incidentally, your little side-discussion about manners and style is an example of online white knightery, insouciantly and unconsciously fed by the distressed damsel. It is indicative by example of what we were discussing in the abstract. I am glad it appeared.

    Matt

  46. “Your femme-centric understanding of relationships presumes the female perception should be the controlling perception.”

    I presume nothing of the sort. I am simply explaining how things work. You think women aren’t suffering from the consequences? I assure you- they are. If I chose to, that’s what I could read/listen to all day. Suffering. Endless suffering.

    What would you need to hear a woman say to own up to what happened? What would be the words that would show you a woman knows the spots on her soul and is not a brazen hussy? I’d really like to know.

    Many women know their purity is gone- its lost, irretriveably. Some respond by forging ahead and saying, well, I’ve already come this far, there is nothing further to be lost. Others halt completely. Still others are somewhere in the middle.

    “You have no idea what you have done, nor what you are doing.” I think I have a pretty good idea of what I’ve done, I just don’t feel the need to admit my every fault to people who assume I have more of them than I do anyway. The internet is not my confessor.

    I understand what you are saying about those who are baffled.

    I noticed and that is why I stopped posting. You tread a fine line with me here, Matt. I have been bullied and controlled and isolated from friends and family in real life, so, yes, it is nice to feel there are those who would offer me support. I have not entirely come to depend on the kindness of strangers, but I will never be unappreciative of kindness from whatever source it emanates. Did not Christ himself love Mary Magdalene?

  47. What would you need to hear a woman say to own up to what happened? What would be the words that would show you a woman knows the spots on her soul and is not a brazen hussy? I’d really like to know.

    Talk is cheap. There are no words! Read Stingray’s latest: “What I was expecting from him was a reaction to me based on something as if I had already accomplished it, not the reaction to my saying I would do it.”

    There lies the fundamental disconnect. Confession is not absolution is not reconciliation. Penance and firm purpose of amendment stop the wounds from bleeding but do not eliminate scars. Your sex’s belief in the magical power of words is what prevents reconciliation.

    I am happy you have your priorities straight. No indeed, I am not your confessor. Reconciliation and absolution are well beyond my powers, and in fact are beyond all human powers. The most power we have is a very good but not perfect imitation of God’s mercy, and that is, forgiveness. But forgiveness automatically invalidates itself when the confession/apology is retracted by virtue of proceeding in the behavior that required forgiveness in the first place. You may say you’re sorry for stealing the car, you may even be sorry you stole it, but until you return it to its owner, you are still a car thief. Or as Christ told the adulteress after saving her from stoning,

    “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.”

    The contrite are not condemned, but do not sin again.

    Christ loved Mary Magdalene the Penitent, because her repentance (or metanoia) made that love possible.

    How does a woman make up for past mistakes, impurities, and “spots on her soul”? She can’t. Or more precisely, she can’t. But here is the Good News. She can be repentant and change her behavior, and that is enough. But insofar as she denies the need for a complete transfiguration — a total change of soul that rejects rather than rationalizes away her mistakes — she is not penitent, she is not truly reconcilable.

    Don’t talk to me of “fine line[s]” or imply that I am “bull[ying]” you. This is actually what true “support” looks like. It tells you bluntly about the lies that keep you from being whole again. And why bluntly? Because the lies are so deep, so interwoven with what you have come to regard as the truth.

    You are wrong to say the “purity is gone — it’s lost, irretrievably.” There is no cause for despair; it is precisely that despair that makes a woman who committed a few prideful mistakes into that “brazen,” or unapologetic “hussy.”

    At the same time, it is most important to emphasize in this culture of easy and instant reconciliation that the slate is not cleaned by a woman’s magical words. To understand how purity may be recovered is not to imagine a time machine and an adjustment of fate. It is to understand the deadly seriousness with which you must regard those unresolved mistakes. If anything, your impatience indicates you have a way to go. That’s what I meant when I said, “You have no idea what you have done, nor what you are doing.” If you did, your approach to the issue would be more obvious in its humility and more indicative of the life-or-death difficulties of true reconciliation.

    Matt

  48. @ GeishaKate: you expect kindness and support from “King A (Matthew King),” a man who cannot post a single comment without demeaning or insulting someone?

    Good luck with that, Kate. This bible-thumping, scripture-quoting maniac will tell you what a whore you are — and then spend twenty verbose paragraphs palming off his insult as some sort of favor to you.

    As I said earlier: trash is still trash, no matter how ornate the package.

  49. As I said earlier: trash is still trash, no matter how ornate the package.

    On the other hand, a pearl is still a pearl, even if you have to dig through muck to get to it.

    When I posted my original question, I knew very well that there would probably be at least a few comments that were nothing but abuse (I have actually been surprised on this account! Nothing so far!), as well as several which might be helpful, but couched in crass language or at least very hard to hear (Matthew’s comments would seem to fit), and maybe a few which were just nice. I accepted that, and decided I would look for whatever help I could and do my best to ignore the attitude. It may not be my fault that the system is rigged, but on the other hand, I’ve been a willing idiot too, and I am not going to perpetuate the problem of feminists going into male territory and demand they play nicer for my benefit.

    In other words, I am aware that I am here on sufferance, and so, have tried to remain true to myself in attitude and tone, without taking offense when others do the same.

    What I’ve seen on this thread (and I haven’t read much of any others, so perhaps I’ve drawn the wrong conclusion), is that GeishaKate makes no similar allowance. Indeed, I think this is the wrong place for any woman to come for “support and kindness” – even if I still take advantage of the chance of finding answers.

    I am simply explaining how things work. You think women aren’t suffering from the consequences? I assure you- they are.

    The problem with this statement is it is the major point of the MRA that women AREN’T really suffering much. Granted, it is still hard to be a single mother, but with all of the resource reallocation (welfare, food stamps, alimony, child support, etc) not only is it much easier than it would be otherwise, but it has gotten to the point that many women don’t fear it – at least, not enough to prevent it.

    If you aren’t using 2+ methods of birth control, or else abstaining from pre-marital sex entirely, then you aren’t really that scared of what single motherhood could do to you. I have three cousins who are all sisters who all got knocked up – the first one by three DIFFERENT ex-cons. Did her younger sisters look at that and go, “gee, what a rough life that I want no part of,”? No, they decided it wasn’t THAT bad and got in on the action too. That’s the problem. They AREN’T suffering so badly that they learn to make different choices. They are just stumbling around making the same mistakes, and not hurting enough to do anything differently.

  50. I appreciate it. I’ve been reading quite a bit on your blog the last three days or so. It’s eye-opening to say the least. Thanks!

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