The Men in the Garage

man-cave-art-02

Down Low on the SoSuave forum makes an observation:

I once lived in a suburb where all the men were relegated to their garages. Whenever a garage door was up, there’d be a man puttering around inside. He’d have a couch and desk, TV on, maybe clicking on a computer, and some mini fridge or hot plate going.

Of the neighbors I knew, none of the men were happily married. Some of them were relegated to upstairs bedrooms that had been converted into home offices. Others slept in a different bedroom from their wives. The men made quickie snacks all day out of cold cuts, chips, and cola. They all drank heavily.

Thing is, most of them had pretty good paying jobs and two cars out front. It seems that their wives were all unhappy over living for free in a new house, having a free car to drive, and having credit cards to go shopping with all day.

Burroughs then distills the phenomenon down for us:

Our main weakness as men lies within our inability to recognize when and how men are hated, we want so desperately to believe the illusion, we want so desperately to be liked and wanted and needed, that we have lost all sort of instinct for self preservation, to the point where we will literally jump in front of knives and bullets for women we dont even know.

The system is not designed for male contentedness, it doesn’t want male happiness, it wants you to constantly feel incomplete, it thrives off of your insecurity , it needs you to question yourself, it needs you to be in constant fear… of being alone of being a virgin, of continuing to have sex after your no longer a virgin, of being muscular, of not going bald, of this of that of everything.

Because remember you are not allowed a shred of weakness or vulnerability, it stifles the spirit of men it is pesticide on the male soul, society still has no clue, their pumping out these man up articles one right after another arent they?

Have we raised a generation of men that dont know how to be men? Where have all the good men gone? How come women are outperforming men in this and that? They simply will not come admit that this is a result of a sustained effort to disenfranchise men, one in which the end result can only be men turning their backs on a society that will to the bitter end hate on men for doing so.

Becuase you exist to serve there wont be an equal treatment of male victims of domestic violence, for example, no matter how much the inequality of it is pointed out, simply because you as a man have no right in this society to demand equal treatment.

I think the men in the garages have realized…or are realizing what a terrible waste their lives have been…and that their wives are not their allies but their slave-masters.. nagging endlessly while parasitically living off the income of the husband until such time as he is depleted…at which point the woman can cast him aside while continuing to extort money from the man through the police state….the men in the garage realize this…they realize the lies they have been fed through media and church have led them to this…so they drink….to avoid blowing their brains out.

Stay strong men.

Man Caves & Manctuaries

While I really like the idea of in-garage-bars (I can think of at least 2 I know around here in Florida), I’m of two minds about this. On one hand, I think it’s essential for a healthy marriage that a Man set aside his space in the home. This is essential in establishing independent identities that is vital to a woman maintaining respect for her spouse. There are long established habits and interests and things that are part of my personality that I know damn well Mrs. Tomassi loathes, but the moment I allow her to “fix” me is the moment she loses respect for me in my independence because I’d be identifying with what she ‘thinks’ is best only to placate to her. There has to be that separation or you end up becoming this homogenized, asexual assimilation of what she thinks you should be – this is the ultimate form of male supplication. So as a necessary part of living together there must be areas that you are uncompromisingly separate in. This is a HUGE shit test that most married AFCs fail and then become slaves to the expectations and entitlements their wives have.

On the other hand, when routine life with a woman decays into this for a long period of time, understandably even AFCs will want a refuge. This used to be the local bar or some other man’s refuge. Depending on his degree of servitude, a weekend in his “man cave” ends up being preferable to the constant nagging of his wife. This is why escapisims (such as MMO type computer games) are so popular. Working life AND personal life become so intolerable that the escape is preferable to dealing with his realities. So he creates his own treehouse with a big sign on the outside that says “no girls allowed.”

In John Gray’s travesty that is Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, he makes a misguided attempt to characterize men’s want for a cave as something inherent to the male nature. This makes accepting a ‘man cave’ a bit more palatable for women steeped in feminine social primacy, but the phenomenon is so much more as Burroughs illuminated in his post. It’s not a want for solitude, it’s a necessity for escape.

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous

I can understand a want for isolation and an escape, however brief, from dealing with one’s reality. We all have them in one form or another, but what the men in the garage signify is a more permanent form of surrender to feminine primacy. It’s not enough that a man be (even partially) responsible for the provisioning of his spouse and children, she must occupy the home so thoroughly that he’s pushed to the peripheries (sometimes even a separate location) to have any domain over what is his. It may be the garage, it maybe an off-site storage facility, it may be a customized basement “she allows him” to convert, but in the end it’s the summation of his surrender of frame.

It’s gotten to the point that men are so obliviously accepting of this frame surrender that his customized, pseudo-bachelor pad, underground dwelling becomes a point of pride for him. It’s something to impress other, equally as frame-oblivious men with. The guy with enough income to maintain a home his wife controls and a separate man-cave apartment of his own is envied by men less capable to do so.

What these men don’t see is the danger in their reasoning for isolation. For men so thoroughly conditioned by the feminine imperative, women’s control of the home is a given; it’s just how it is – if they want to get laid with any regularity. While consoling oneself in the garage amongst the big screen TV, pool table and wet bar, there’s not much impetus to give a man insight as to why his ‘fortress of solitude’ would even be necessary for him in the first place. He doesn’t wonder about why he should need to support a home and family while simultaneously living like a bachelor in his apartment on the weekends.


93 responses to “The Men in the Garage

  • Nick

    So ingrained is the feminine imperative that I’ve known men who’ve created “man caves” who weren’t even married (as bachelors or with live-in girlfriends). Just the name suggests men are neanderthals while women are the civilized ones who own the house they probably didn’t even pay for. I agree that in any relationship with a woman a man should have his own space and time, but to automatically allow a woman to set the terms and “allow” a man to be relegated to a “cave” like a troll is sickening. Most men laugh about this description and play along, not realizing the jokes on them.

  • Revo Luzione

    Yes indeed, this is a big problem. Men who end up in the basement or garage have completely lost both perspective and their masculine frame.

    It was said succinctly elsewhere– the man cave is what’s left for a man after he caves and caves and caves.

  • Jeremiah

    Just saw L.A. Confidential for the first time. Thought I was hearing things.

  • Jay

    I pay the bills, but I only really own 12 square feet of space on my side of the bed, and the wife and kids don’t understand why I’m so defensive about it when they invade my personal 12 square feet. It’s the only clean spot in the whole damn house, and it’s mine.

  • taterearl

    “Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous”

    So true…isolation in short bursts can be good for your mind…isolation for long periods of time leads to many problems. Men aren’t supposed to be islands. Some of my good ideas come from quiet time…others come from discussing with other guys.

    It is sad though that you pay for a house and only get to own a small part of it or have no say on how you want the house set up. It would be easier to live in an apartment…at least you get your money’s worth and can boss a landlord around.

  • jlw

    That’s why you never marry. My house is all mine. Has been for years, will be for the rest of my days. No wife, no kids, no family at all. People keep telling me how lonely I’ll be in my late 20s (I wasn’t), 30s (I wasn’t), 40s (I’m not). When does it end? When do people finally say…”gosh, I think that guy is happy alone”?

  • Stingray

    ”gosh, I think that guy is happy alone”?

    Never. It’s too scary a thought (for women) and too happy a thought for men who will never see it without losing what they’ve already achieved.

  • taterearl

    ”gosh, I think that guy is happy alone”

    The day my aunts, female cousins, and grandmothers quit asking me if I have a girlfriend/wife yet. Still hasn’t happened.

  • sunshinemary

    So as a necessary part of living together there must be areas that you are uncompromisingly separate in. This is a HUGE shit test that most married AFCs fail

    This is interesting. I am not sure how it is for most men; my husband has a basement workshop because one of his hobbies is woodworking, but he also likes having it as his own space which I am forbidden to clean. It seems like having a personal space for the man of the home isn’t the issue; it’s more how he is treated (either with respect or contempt) in the rest of the house.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    In girl-world only men who are married are permitted to be happy.

  • Stingray

    Sunshinemary,

    I assume the basement is his, while the rest of the house is not *yours* right? It’s both of yours? I think that is a big distinction.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I have (and have always had) an art/ design studio in my home from the day I bought the first of our six homes. I’ve always needed it for workspace, but it’s also ‘my place'; meaning I’m responsible for the decor, the arrangement of furniture, the paint, etc. It is part of my home, not set away from the home. Mrs. Tomassi still cleans and vacuums it and while it’s my favorite room of the house, it’s not a refuge.

    I think it’s more about the conditionality of how men go about establishing that space. I’m kind of an aesthetic guy; If I don’t like some decoration my wife bring into our home she’ll hear about it, but it’s not about owning those decisions it’s about a man’s frame of his relationship.

    I know men who don’t have ‘man caves’ but will go to a ‘guest room’ in their homes to watch a football game so as not to upset his wife. He’s the guest in his own home.

  • itsme

    In girl-world only men who are married are permitted to be happy.

    they’re permitted, yet are rarely given permission.

  • Hopeless Marxism

    I see it as an existential problem. Materialistic corporate culture allows for no spiritual evolution. Notice how the garages and man caves are equipped with TVs and internet to keep the sheep plugged into mainstream American culture.

  • DJDamage

    Sir Edward Coke once said ” a Man’s house is his castle”

    Today it seems as if its ” a man’s house is his Wife’s castle & he just lives there”.

  • avd

    I certainly don’t mean to talk over others, but it is literally unfathomable to me that ANYONE, much less a female, would control my physical existence IN MY OWN FUCKING living quarters. I accept that this is apparently a widespread issue, but I just don’t understand how it was able to arrive at issue status. Has that much testosterone really been drained from Western populations of homo sapiens? Females permitted into my living quarters are assigned certain furniture, side of the bed, bathroom hygiene, and kitchen organization . . . and they are NEVER permitted into my office, EVER. These regulations are communicated upfront, and their violation has never been an issue. In fact, the girls seem just fine with them. Man cave? For fuck’s sake—YOU’RE THE MAN; IT’S YOUR FUCKING HOME. Apologies for the emotional outburst, but I find the idea of men not being in charge of their households to be extremely offensive.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    If women would fuck in cardboard boxes, men wouldn’t buy houses.

    What I find interesting is the fact that post-marriage, most men would be perfectly happy living in a modest home, in a modest neighborhood, with modest furnishings. It is the women who demand a McMansion in an “upscale” neighborhood, filled with expensive but worthless decorations. And what is the man’s reward for providing these “necessities”? Whatever space the woman has no use for. An unheated, uninsulated room with concrete floors and shitty lighting.

    I was watching one of those “Strange Sex” shows last night and they were interviewing a couple who had furnished their entire house with sex furniture.

    That might be something I’d sign up for.

  • Curious

    Rollo, could you please write more about “Men are from Mars” ?

  • Mark Minter

    I had a big screen in the garage, because she didn’t want it in the living room. Of course, we all spent many hours watching TV as a babysitter for kids. The kids loved the big screen. But nope, it didn’t smoothly fit over there in the corner like Princess wanted.

    The garage was the last phase before the “Final Solution”. I remember renting the entire Band of Brothers series and watching it back to back out there.

    A month later, I was living in Florida, beginning this chapter in my life.

    And for years, the family room had somewhat been that place for me but only after 9pm when she went up to sleep, the dogs and kids went with her, and I was banished to downstairs because the kids wouldn’t sleep if I was upstairs. There were two kids in the bed and her. Not much room left for a 6’3″ 200 pound man is there? So I read and read. This was before the internet. Yeah, I am probably close to a scholar on Russian History from 1850-1950. Care for an hour long discussion on the historical impact of the assassination Pyotr Stolypin? Got it for you if you want it. If he hadn’t been shot there might not have been a WWI or Russian Revolution. He was voted 3rd most influential man in Russian history in poll of Russians two years ago. Lenin came in at 11th. You probably never heard of Stolypin. I did. One of the finer benefits of Marriage. Plenty of alone time to study obscure subjects like the failure of Russia to develop a “state” under Czarist control.

    And yeah, I accepted all of this as the normal, the normal sacrifices that the “Good Man” makes. And gets fucked in the ass for doing so.

    So if you refer to my comment to your previous post down at the bottom of that page, you might detect that I’m little more radical today.

    So when people find me bitter, or enraged, I’m not quite like that. It’s more of Eyes Wide Open and a strong desire to come into the fight to dispel the conventions that men are forced to accept. That they are no longer suffering alone. There are millions of men out in garages, in basements, “suffering lives of quiet desperation”, while the clock ticks and ticks and ticks.

    If nobody’s talking about it then it won’t get talked about and illuminated. If people don’t see that men like me are proposing Radical solutions then there will never be a moderate accommodation.

    I still say you would be a fool to enough accept a moderate accommodation.

    If your ass is in the Garage or your man cave, then you should get the fuck out.

    Statistics show that even with a healthy chunk of your check taken in child support, you will still have more money to spend on yourself than you currently do as married chump.

    Like one of the black actors in Brother From Another Planet said “I would rather be a janitor in New York then the Emperor of Mississippi”.

    Better to have dominion over a weekly hotel room than to hide in your basement or your garage. You won’t be in that weekly hotel room forever.

    And adventure and self respect are waiting for you.

    You only have to open yourself up to the possibility of it.

    I fucked Diana Rincon Salazar,
    the most beautiful woman ever in my life,
    while she called Papi,
    and I owner her,
    and I learned about 50 Shades of Grey,
    on my own,
    before it was a popular book,
    in the chapter of my life after
    yes, after,
    those nights in Garage with the Big Screen

  • xsplat

    I was married once, and the wife insisted that she owned the kitchen. I thought that was a radical thing for a feminist to say, but didn’t fight her on it.

    We didn’t have a TV back then, but if we did we would have chosen what to watch by consensus. And by consensus I mean that if she wasn’t pleased with the show I would have “compromised”.

    I had my office, and later invested in a school bus that I was going to convert into a man cave.

    I was often unhappy and found her to often be an oppressive, nagging, and bullying presence. “Get with the program” was her favorite saying.

    I was 24 and doing my best. And to me at the time that meant trying to get along and baby sit her hysterical mind and try to maintain some sanity in the house.

    Flash forward to today. I own the remote, and watch whatever the hell I want, when I want. All of the house is mine. Every inch of it. My live in companions are guests, no matter how much tenure they have accumulated. I let the girl have a favored side of the bed, and I’ll allow her to place decorations and photos here and there, but that’s as far as it goes. My whole house is my man cave. The girl adjust to it – I don’t adjust to her. And if the girl tries to throw around moods I tell her to get out of my house. No moods allowed. There has been no nagging in my life for a long time – since I was married, I think. It’s not tolerated, and is abruptly cut off with a “don’t nag me”, even for speech that just infringes on nagging territory.

    I live well and easily with women – there is very little conflict, and the house is usually pleasant and harmonious – loving, even. Yes, I’d say quite loving. I’m used to that, and I know how to create it. It’s easy now.

    But it’s MY house. My house, my rules. There is no “our” in mine.

  • Case

    @Hopeless Marxist.
    agreed that the commercial culture has little use of people living to do rather than the approved route of doing to have.
    agreed too that there is much we should pay attention to in the marxist critique (anyone seeking the cliffnotes version of the critique is referred to the 2011 movie “in time”).
    point though: american corporate capitalism is only one subform of corporate capitalism which is only one form of capitalism per se.
    I think marxism offers insights that are important and they become more important the more they are ignored, but little by way of answers.
    There are better forms of capitalism, that exist in the real world and not in libertarians’ imaginations, that do a better job for men.
    sadly, our american crop of libertarians and rightwingers argue viciously for a fictional form of capitalism which performing excellent rearguard politics that serve only to protect the american corporate capitalism they claim to eschew.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Rollo, could you please write more about “Men are from Mars” ?

    I had to read this crap for a psych class and I ran the teacher up the flag pole for giving even a word of legitimacy about this feminized, patronization literature that passes for psychology.

    This book is chick-crack for the Oprah-Dr. Phil-Sex and the City crowd, and the fact that any guy with an ounce of testosterone in his bloodstream would even raise an eybrow over it is a testament to how pre-whipped men have become.

    It reads like a handbook on how men can better supplicate and identify with women because they’re ‘different’ and how a guy can ‘fix’ himself for her while stressing a woman be patient with him while he does.

    Gray is little better than a Carl Jung pop-psychologist shill making money from reinforcing women’s feelings of victimization in a sexual arena because “they don’t wanna.” Men are from Mars was a bestseller because 90% of it’s readership is female.

    Gray fundamentally ignores the desire principle in both sexes and skirts around the conditions women and men place upon each other as terms for intimacy.

    It’s a manual for how to be a better beta.

  • Peregrine John

    As bad as it is, there’s worse. Do not find or read “His Needs, Her Needs.” Take it from me that it makes Dr. Gray look like Mr. Mintner.

  • Wilf

    @AVD “For fuck’s sake—YOU’RE THE MAN; IT’S YOUR FUCKING HOME. Apologies for the emotional outburst, but I find the idea of men not being in charge of their households to be extremely offensive.”

    I too almost hit the roof over what I’m hearing about men asking permission to have their own space in their home. I thought, “Surely, it hasn’t come to this.” And, then I thought about my fellow long-married friends and for quite a few of them this or a variation of this is indeed the case. It’s sad. I’m glad I don’t have to live this particular tyranny.

    But it got me to start thinking about the lack of men’s clubs, spaces, organizations. One thing I find fascinating is the loss of men’s places and the rise of women-only spaces. At work today, a male friend of mine and I were trying to think of one place that is all male other than for example, a very expensive private club, or a gay bath house, we honestly couldn’t think of anything. There used to be old-school boxing gyms. But, I think even those are now mostly gone and/or allow women. A female co-worker overheard us, and sent me a link to some crusty old school gym, and said, “I think this is the closest you’re going to find.” And when I asked her did she think it odd that we can’t easily name a men’s only space, she said “no” – completely oblivious, completely plugged in.

    These notions start early. My seven year old heard YMCA on the radio and he asked me if it was sexist because they were talking only about men in the song. I didn’t get into the sexual angle there of course. But I had to tell him that a long time ago the YMCA was for men only and that there were also clubs that only men could go to, but those places don’t really exist anymore. And I reassured him that it is not sexist because boys have their own clubs. So already he’s attuned to some male injustice around exclusion of females. I see a lot of deprogramming in my future.

  • Ace Haley

    Great speech by Burroughs. I didn’t even even know who the guy was (I probably still don’t) but I know I’ve heard the words. This guy on Youtube, Barbarossaaaa, made a video about it a while ago.

  • AD

    Wanna comment on this one?

    http://jezebel.com/5838994/a-field-guide-to-nice-guys

    [Feel free to post this link over there, ’cause I aint gonna do it: Play Nice]

  • avd

    Xsplat ftw. (first time I’ve ever written “ftw”)

  • Georgia Boy

    I’ve never been on board with the man cave thing and I am not going to be. I know when I’m being fed a line of mainstream media BS to get me to buy a bunch of shit I don’t truly want. For you guys who like that stuff and have the time to watch sports, good for you, but it isn’t my vision of myself. We have an upstairs living area but I don’t use it much. Mostly when I want to be alone I just go in the bedroom.

    I will admit we give each other personal time out of the house when we feel we need it, so I suppose that may be serving the purpose. When I want to get away it’s good to be able to choose among lots of coffeehouses and bars where there are other people. Otherwise I don’t get the men needing their own space thing, if it’s a shit test it seems to have passed me by. I spend enough hours out of the house in Cubicleville and when that’s done I mostly want to be with my dearly beloved.

    Also, I am entirely comfortable sleeping under bedcovers that have a lot of flowers on them and a kitchen with a bunch of implements shaped like roosters and Holsteins. Nothing unmasculine about it and I don’t need a manly decorated room to compensate. I have a reasonably feminine partner, I like that she expresses that (to a balance of course).

  • Mark Minter

    Rollo I posted the Play Nice link.

    And left a comment. Something about how I don’t play nice, why, and how I never will, and that I am just the beginning of a the next wave of men that aren’t going to be the compliant men that women wish. Maybe a little more.

    I am not sure which place makes me happier to flame, Manboobz or Jezebel. My Jezebel comments are probably loftier, better writing.

    I just generally call Manboob a pussy magina with a side of flame.

    But give Jezebel credit. They post them.

    [Because on a root level, Jizzabels know that they want Alpha seed, and despise Beta need, even if they wont actually vocalize it in so many words. Manboobz can’t grasp this because he’s a guy trying to identify with women. The best thing he can come up with is mocking the Alphas turning out the asses of the women he thinks should be attracted to him for identifying with them.]

  • Jeremiah

    I’m never getting married. I’m sure some guys are happy with thier wife and family, but I’ve never seen a married couple and thought “I want that.”

    Kids would be cool but I don’t want to responsible for anyone but myself.

  • Candide

    It is a very modern Anglosphere cultural phenomenon that married men live like servants in their own homes. First they fail to own the bedroom. Note when a couple have a fight, the man will go sleep on the couch or go somewhere else for a few nights, leaving the house to the master aka wife. In contrast, in a patriarchal culture, the wife will get kicked out of the bedroom or usually go back to her parents’ for a little while until they make peace.

    It’s only a natural progression that the servant must find his own small shitty place in the house to keep his things and practically live there unless called upon for house work, paying bills and defending it, sacrificed if need be, on behalf of the master.

    One of my staff at work just did this. He works like a maniac to pay for the land and the house, doing most of the wiring and renovating himself. In the first big fight after moving into what is rightly HIS house, he had to scramble to find a shitty apartment to sleep for a week, and now is back at the house working on his dog’s corner, sorry, mancave, with the space permission from the lord and master.

  • Philalethes

    Re: “Men Are From Mars”… Susan Walsh seems to like it:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/11/30/relationshipstrategies/20-years-later-men-and-women-are-still-from-different-planets/

    I remember when it came out, the title was such obvious pandering I never looked further.

    Similarly, Warren Farrell’s “Myth of Male Power” was pretty good (when I read it in the 90s) — at least a good job of collecting evidence — until I got to the last chapter, where he declares that the solution is for the sexes to become more alike! All that work, and he still doesn’t get it. Truly, the Matrix has most men by the balls.

    [Aunt Giggles likes it because Gray agrees with her goal of building better betas to serve,..erh, ‘make happy’ women.]

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Heh,..Man-Cave = Servants Quarters, ergo he is ‘The Help’

  • Philalethes

    “Note when a couple have a fight, the man will go sleep on the couch….”

    Yes. What could be more obvious?

  • AW

    Mark Minter, please post a link to your comment at Jezebel…my popcorn is already in the microwave.

  • Sexual Marxism

    “Apologies for the emotional outburst, but I find the idea of men not being in charge of their households to be extremely offensive.”

    You are single. When married a house is not a building that belongs to either partner but a HOME that is built and shared by the two.

    However “having my space” largely appears to be a western-sphere thing. Those of us from the East are used to growing up in households with a lot of family members, sharing all sorts of stuff.

    Just 2 people in a big house seems like a waste to us and very lonely at that. But it seems you people can’t even manage that. You have to have your “own offices” “caves” or “garages” do your own thang.

    Very odd.

  • taterearl

    “Note when a couple have a fight, the man will go sleep on the couch”

    I often think most women start fights just so they can have the entire bed.

    I always liked the idea of having separate beds for sleeping. You can still have sexy time in one of them…but you can kick her out and have the entire bed to sleep in for the rest of the night.

  • IrishFarmer

    A man should have his space. A basement or a garage is ideal, because it’s low traffic. A living room isn’t really a great place for strict “man stuff”, because that’s where you’re most likely to entertain people. The problem is that the man escapes to his so-called cave.

    Whatever isn’t solely for the use of the man is a shared space. It should not be a space the man is kicked out of, it should be a space that husband and wife work together to decorate or whatever and make presentable for outsiders. It should be a comfortable place for both, and the children if there are any. A man cave isn’t problematic, but I would say that often times the more work and time a man puts into his cave, the more likely it is an expression of a problematic relationship.

  • nek

    @ S & M

    “You are single. When married a house is not a building that belongs to either partner but a HOME that is built and shared by the two. ”

    While nice in theory, this often isn’t the practice in the western anglosphere. The wife often tries to dictate terms. They use cute terms like “having him trained” to speak about their husbands. Also, he WAS married. He’s been there, you’re not dropping any hidden knowledge on him.

    “Just 2 people in a big house seems like a waste to us and very lonely at that.”

    Most men would agree. They’re typically not the ones pushing for bigger houses.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Never really paid it a passing thought but now that someone mentioned it, I can’t imagine what I would do if my wife of g/f tried to make me sleep in another room. How pussified do you have to be to give in to something like that?

    If you ever get to that point your marriage is a ticking time bomb.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I mean, what’s she gonna do? Put a gun to your head and tell you to get out?

    Bitch, take YOUR happy ass to the couch if you have a problem.

  • OlioOx

    I promise this is the last time I will repeat this: I think I have discovered a woman commenter who really gets it about what men are getting angry about nowadays (by the way xplat likes her too)

    I’m repeating this because I am very curious to hear opinions on this woman from this blog in particular and its commenters.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat/videos?view=0

    (Select any of the vids with thumbnail showing the commenter herself, not the brief radio spots. You might as well start with the most recent one, “Look Out! It’s a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM!!!”)

  • Sexual Marxism

    OlioOx,

    All the women that I’ve seen who try to infiltrate and cozy up to the Manosphere are homely looking 5’s at best. I wonder why?

    Anyway, regarding sleeping in separate rooms. Not a bad idea. Another commenter said couples should have their own rooms. For making love they can go into one or the other’s room, but on usual nights, separate sleeping spaces might actually help them get along better.

    I grew sometimes sleeping with my grandma, ma, father, uncle, aunt, cousins all in different rooms, and sometimes with both my parents when they got their “own space”. No one in our family had “their own room” so to speak. We all shared various rooms and rotated on different nights.

    Even though they didn’t sleep together all the time, my parents still managed to have kids, LOL.

  • Georgia Boy

    By the way, I love russian lit too, still covering the basics but getting there. I have the Great Courses lectures on it and am working my way through the golden age. Any woman whose husband takes that up on the couch, deserves whatever heartache she gets when he walks on her.

  • Gilligan

    Had a Grandfather that never needed a man cave – the entire house was his man cave. My grandmother lived in his house. When my grandmother wanted something new, sometimes he would agree, but other times, she got a flat “no”. One of his favorite sayings was, “we aren’t going to buy that sofa…for I am he who all blessings flow”. In other words, “I pay the bills”.

  • Candide

    Rollo, maybe we should start calling those mancaves for exactly what they are: Servants Quarters. We’re in the middle of a war on words and femcentric definitions after all, and a little shaming goes a long way.

  • Case

    Funny thought I had just thinking about all of this.

    It’s like the entire culture is organized around persuading men that women’s love is possible, women’s love is wonderful, your life is incomplete and probably meaningless without women’s love, and basically the most important important important thing in the whole wide world all over is achieving the love of a woman.

    All of this is intended to distract from the very simple truth: the only thing that is important … and it may not be important, but the only thing that could be important, is a woman’s respect, not her love.

    If you want sex to be any part of it, then respect must precede love or stand in lieu of it. There is no other way.

  • Senior Beta

    Truth be told Rollo, I love your stuff but mostly flip through for the Minter comments. I knew he would have some great story from this post. But don’t have time to trace him through the Web labyrinth. Good post. So I will have the big screen put in the living room in time for next football season.

  • avd

    @ OlioOx,

    Respect your upbringing. Just can’t conceive of that lack of control over my own home. I would ditch the family and extended family before ever putting up with it.

  • Case

    Ok OT but funny i’ve gotta share…
    i’m literally in the gym rite now working out.
    Got going on some reps & overheard two fellows nearby conversation went like this…
    Dude A: hey where’s (name sounds like “binky”)
    Dude B: oh he’s got anger management class on Monday nights. I think he plans to workout at 7:30.

    At that moment I’m thinking to myslef, “he works out, is known to by his friends, and is in anger management class. Betchya the dude cleans up”.

    No sooner than the thought has cleared my head…

    Dude A: yeah I hear he’s popular with the ladies

  • GhostShip

    Men have an inherent need for solitude so the man caves make sense. However, the problem comes from when the man cave is the only place in the home that shows his presence.

    I’ve been to some guys homes who if I didn’t know that a man lived there I would have no idea that his wife or girlfriend wasn’t the only occupant.

    A man should make sure that he has made his mark on every common room in the home and especially in the bedroom. You doesn’t want your woman to be able to walk though your shared home and not have some constant reminder of you. If you can’t leave a lasting impression in your own home what makes you are leaving a lasting impression in your relationship with her. This is especially true for the bedroom where you want her to know that shes coming to your bed and not her’s.

  • Johnycomelately

    I guess the Scots invented a passtime that would take forever, involve enough physical exertion that women wouldn’t join but not enough to be taxing and that could be enjoyed while having a drink and smoke, I think they called it golf.

  • OlioOx

    Rollo, for those (like me) who have never read the Men are from Mars book, wouldn’t it be worth their time — for the sake of learning how so many women AND men think nowadays? ‘Know thy enemy’ sort of thing?

    And @avd — I think you must have wanted to reply to someone else.

  • Chuck Hammer

    My 24 year marriage is sort of a low key War of the Roses and she exploits me plenty but I’ve never been kicked out of my own bed. In fact on one memorable occasion I literally kicked her out – put my feet on her and shoved her onto the floor. I responded to the explosion of rage with a rude comment then rolled over and ignored her. She slept on the couch. In retrospect that was not one of my better ideas.

  • Fuckaire

    Just marry or get an LTR who doesn’t want to enter the garage. If it has insects or lots of tools, they’ll stay out. Believe me… Done.

  • Mark Minter

    I have a request. Kind of asking a DJ for a song.

    This is from the Memoirs of Casanova.

    “What is love? I have read plenty of ancient verbiage on that subject, I have read likewise most of what has been said by modern writers, but neither all that has been said, nor what I have thought about it, when I was young and now that I am no longer so, nothing, in fact, can make me agree that love is a trifling vanity. It is a sort of madness, I grant that, but a madness over which philosophy is entirely powerless; it is a disease to which man is exposed at all times, no matter at what age, and which cannot be cured, if he is attacked by it in his old age. Love being sentiment which cannot be explained! God of all nature!—bitter and sweet feeling! Love!—charming monster which cannot be fathomed! God who, in the midst of all the thorns with which thou plaguest us, strewest so many roses on our path that, without thee, existence and death would be united and blended together! ”

    I know that you have visited on this topic, love as men love, and love as women love.

    But my request is that perhaps you might cover it a little more in depth as a chemical product that physically occurs in the body, to be very clinical in what is occurring. Like what chemically is occurring and the psychological effects of that chemistry?

    Is it as painful for women as it for men. I don’t mean the breakups. I mean the actual time that you are in hot love. It can be very painful. Even when you get the woman, it still can be such an insane moment.

    Madness.

    So why?

  • avd

    @ OlioOx

    “And @avd — I think you must have wanted to reply to someone else.”

    Confident I was replying to you, friend.

  • OlioOx

    @avd

    I’m sorry but I don’t have the faintest idea what you’re talking about. Are you referring to the videoblogger I linked?

  • The paradox of selfishness « Random Xpat Rantings

    […] the women keep trying taking advantage of kindness, work to gain hand in the relationship, relegate the man to his garage man cave (otherwise knows as his servants quarters), and then leave the guy for the bad-boy play-boy banker […]

  • OlioOx

    @Mark Minter

    The physiology of love — or why your brain gets completely wacked — is discussed in lectures 14-17 of Standford University endocrinologist Robert Sapolsky’s course “Human Behavioral Biology.” The course was designed for beginners in biology and anyone else who’s interested.

    http://www.academicroom.com/course-lecture/human-behavioral-biology (also on Youtube)

    It’s probably best to watch from the beginning though; later lectures often assume you’ve understood the earlier ones.

    As a longtime recreational student of life sciences, I think I am on safe ground in assuming that natural selection is almost exclusively responsible for the overwhelming mental/physical experience of that phenomenon with so many disputed names: love, lust, falling-in-love, infatuation, etc. Just imagine the millions of years of existence of the line of species that finally became homo sapiens; what would happen to individuals who were less, or more, horny than usual?

    Imagine further: what if, long ago, our pre-human ancestors had adequate levels of physical horniness, but much much less conscious activity — say, just the bare minimum necessary — associated with horniness? Then one day a mutation occurred leading to conscious mental activity accompanying horniness being greatly increased, causing the possessor of that mutation to use its intelligence and imagination much more in solving the horniness problem. If the possessor was thereby more successful in mating, its DNA would be advantaged and would gradually spread so as to become the default. Perhaps this is why humans think about sex so much.

    It’s great fun to learn a little science and then play armchair Darwin. But perhaps you might prefer Dr. Sapolsky to Doc OlioOx.

  • Different T

    “The system is not designed for male contentedness, it doesn’t want male happiness, it wants you to constantly feel incomplete, it thrives off of your insecurity , it needs you to question yourself, it needs you to be in constant fear… of being alone of being a virgin, of continuing to have sex after your no longer a virgin, of being muscular, of not going bald, of this of that of everything.”

    While this is true, it is not complete. As you say, “It seems that their wives were all unhappy over living for free in a new house, having a free car to drive, and having credit cards to go shopping with all day.”

    “What these men don’t see is the danger in their reasoning for isolation. For men so thoroughly conditioned by the feminine imperative, women’s control of the home is a given; it’s just how it is – if they want to get laid with any regularity.”

    No. It is true. The alternative is she leaves, gets half your shit, takes your kids and makes them hate you, and gets another “slave” or starts drawing on the savings account.

    It is design, not illusion.

  • Baffled

    Rollo I wonder if you could post on something that has been a real thorn in my side my whole life: women’s need to fight. Game has illuminated so much that was previously utterly baffling to me. I now understand the “reason” behind shit tests, women’s love for assholes, their disgust of nice guys, hypergamy, and the rest. But I haven’t come across anyone who can explain women’s need to fight. In every relationship I have ever had there comes a moment when the woman just out of the blue wants to have a fight. It’s probably been building up inside her for a while and picks this moment to come out. Then the topic of the fight always seems absolutely insane and I feel like I’m in a house of mirrors where reality is completely distorted. Often they complain they they don’t feel a connection between us. Then when the fight is over the woman always feels better, maybe even wants sex, when I’m just baffled and demoralized and feel like nothing has been resolved or addressed. If I could possibly understand what they are looking for in picking a fight I would like to avoid it happening, or least know how to play it correctly to come out on top and her pacified, but the whole thing makes absolutely no sense to me.

  • LynxViridis

    ” living like a bachelor in his apartment on the weekends.”

    Living like a bachelor except the p*ssy.

  • OlioOx

    @Baffled

    What a great question. I suggest you also post it to a few other bloggers: Heartiste, Hooking Up Smart, girlwriteswhat, roosh’s forum for example. And if you’ve noticed this is a disturbingly frequent behavior in a certain woman, also post it to Ricky Raw — therawness.com

  • someguy302004

    My dad never had a man cave-he had a chair in the living room that was his-and only his. (You gave it up when he came in).

    He also had the head chair at the kitchen table-no one else took this.

    Also, he never got nagged in front of us, and had a knack for ignoring bullshit when he felt like it.

  • xsplat

    ralized and feel like nothing has been resolved or addressed. If I could possibly understand what they are looking for in picking a fight I would like to avoid it happening, or least know how to play it correctly to come out on top and her pacified, but the whole thing makes absolutely no sense to me.

    You’ve articulated the connundrum well.

    If we consider women as a black box, and can only examine their inputs and outputs, then we find that there are inputs that lessen and even prevent their outbursts of anarchy. We can then develop a theory, or organizing principle around these inputs. What attitude to these inputs have in common?

    Dominance.

    Have frequent and dominant sex with the girl. Her being argumentative is often an outlet for sexual frustration. But women don’t like to only be fucked romantically – they want to be fucked by a selfish man who is taking what he wants, regardless of her opinion.

    And the same attitude must prevail in other areas of your life together. A woman wants a dominant man. She “tests” you by trying to gain hand. If she gains hand, by controlling the remote, for instance, the you win the battle of appeasing her, but lose the war of taming her, and she’ll grow to resent what she will perceive in the bowels of her brain as your weakness.

    So in short, you must dominate your house. You must become more selfish.

    This can take some time. My current live in, for instance, used to throw some sort of tantrum every week or two. Due to being mindful of what inputs I put into the black box, over time the frequency lessened, until now negative events rarely occur, and when they do she moderates herself much faster. Even with a whiff of a hint at my displeasure she’ll apologize for causing trouble.

    It’s an art form, and one that will place some demands upon you to learn. The paradox here is that if you want to avoid drama, you’ll never be able to avoid drama. As part of her training you’ll have to at times out drama her. Cause more trouble than she is causing you. Sure, sometimes you’ll just laugh her off and ignore her, but if you only do that she’ll just get more upset, in the long run. Sometimes you’ll have to amp up the volume to 15. Don’t fear the drama – use it as a tool better than she does.

  • BA

    We read the ‘Men are from Mars….’ drivel with typical results.

    She then wanted to vent about problems at work and wanted me to just nod and agree with her and NOT offer solutions. I called BS. She gets to relieve the stress by talking about her problems, but I get to keep the stress by not offering solutions. No thanks.

    I told her if she just wants someone to listen, she needs to call her Mom & sisters. If she want solutions, come talk to me.

  • Emrys

    I always thought man-cave was derived from Batcave, and as such denoted a zone of awesome. But I’m slightly culturally out of tune.

    On the other hand, the last my wife threatened to make me sleep on the couch, I flopped down on the bed and told her ‘sure. Go get the couch for me.’

    Last night she told me she would follow me anywhere. Coincidence?

  • Baffled

    That article is great, but doesn’t really explain the psychology behind needing indignation. What does she get out of picking a fight? Why do they always feel better from the fight? It is doing something for them, something that makes them feel better, but what? It certainly doesn’t really ever resolve any issues. And it is not a shit test, or a battle for the frame, or any of the other familiar items.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    You have to understand the need for indignation. I’ll put a post together detailing it a bit more, but when a woman has nothing but security it grates against that hypergamous testing instinct.

    If, like most betas think is best, you provide a woman with 100% security it conflicts with her impulse to test you, so she deliberately initiates discord in order to see how Mr. Dependable will react. She can’t test you for hypergamic fitness just relying on some organic circumstance to occur where she can evaluate your response under pressure. She needs to create that circumstance.

    Sometimes it comes in the form of her going out on a GNO, or sometimes it’s the guy at work, and sometimes, when she’s impatient and none of that is a realistic option, she may just initiate a fight.

  • Wilf

    @Baffled Maybe she needs to be dominated.

    In my Blue Pill days my wife and I had a lot of epic fights over nothing. It was the same pattern almost everytime, using certain triggers to draw me in. Sometimes it lasted what felt like hours. But once when it was very heated, I asked why the fuck do you do this. And she said, “I want to be dominated.” The hamster was exposed.

    Or, as Xsplat pointed out to me not long ago when I asked a similar question as yours, maybe she has BPD traits that just make her want the drama, and the need for control over you that she can get afterwards by regaining frame, especially if you are remorseful or fall on your sword post fight to appease her or to smooth things over.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    RE; Men are from Mars.

    Consider that the book was written in the mid 90’s, the apex of social feminization. When you read it from a red pill perspective 20 years later, you will see what an abject mangina, feminine appeaser Gray really is. The book is marinated in the feminine imperative.

    It wasn’t written to open a better egalitarian dialog between the sexes, it was written so men could better serve the feminine imperative. As I said, it’s a manual to build a better serving beta.

  • Baffled

    “when a woman has nothing but security it grates against that hypergamous testing instinct.”

    I think this might be along the right path. My wife has total security (provided by me).

  • Wilf

    RE; Men are from Mars.

    I just did a public library search for this book and found it at a branch down the street from my office. I’m going to pick it up on my lunch break. I’m looking forward to lots of laughs and chuckles.

  • Thomas Gray

    Female frustration resulting in fights is mostly about reassurance that the man is still alpha towards/over her and that you are still hers or she yours (basicly it’s an attempt at gaining hand). This tantrum leads to stress release, relaxation, then sex. If you assert yourself as alpha that is. Wimpy beta’s will just be walked over.

    The solution to this would be to either keep hand at all times, or flare up your anger really quickly, really high the moment you sense she starts throwing a tantrum. This’ll shut her up quickest. Personally I’m the type who tries to keep hand most of the time and when a girl starts a tantrum, if I ever get one, I just point towards the door “do that shit outside” and they know I’m not pissing about. My brother, however, is less stabile and flares his anger to insane levels within seconds when his girlfriend flies off the handle or does something stupid. He gets the wilder make up sex, I’m sure.

    Women are just an insecure and unstabile ball of hormones and they themselves don’t know why they pick a fight most of the times. There’s no logical reason to start a fight over a towel that fell on the floor due to graivty, but you can bet that she’ll raise hell about it to you if you allow her and she needs some stress relief.

  • Hero

    @Baffled

    Stop trying to appease her and keep the peace. Call her on her shit and fight back. She’ll respect you more for it.

    Also, let your own drama happen. Stop trying to control yourself and your temper. Go ahead when you feel like getting mad about something. She’ll understand your boundaries better and she will identify with your emotional outburst.

    I find that women are a lot more fluid in their emotional outbursts. Their emotions rise up faster and fall off faster. They seem to feel much more at ease when you understand this.

    She’ll still love you when the fight is over. Don’t get wrapped up in it.

  • Hero

    @Baffled

    Oh yeah, and have some rough, selfish sex with her. Just watch how that changes her perspective.

  • Philalethes

    When I was younger (decades, that is, before all this discussion of red pill & game) I used to wonder how it worked that some couples seemed to fight all the time, yet stayed together in seemingly “stable” relationships. Then I realized that fighting is a way of exchanging energy, and as a teacher of mine used to say, the unconscious mind doesn’t distinguish between pleasure and pain: it’s *intensity* it’s after; boredom, inactivity, no energy flowing is the killer. If a relationship has degenerated through over-familiarity to where there’s little communication, either verbal or physical, the unconscious may attempt to stimulate some energy flow by picking a fight. And once the energy is flowing, naturally the post-fight sex can be great. As the same teacher used to say, “Love is an active verb.” A relationship is a living thing; it requires consistent attention and nourishment. You can’t just go to sleep and expect it to run itself. And no, I don’t mean “beta” over-solicitousness; just make sure energy is being exchanged consistently. A woman who picks meaningless fights is trying to find some energy in a relationship that’s gone stale for her.

  • Wilf

    FYI:

    At CBC Radio there is a recent program regarding Free To Be You and Me:

    http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2012/12/04/the-free-to-be-you-and-me-movement/

    I haven’t listened to it yet so can’t comment. I assume it will be a love-in.

  • Wilf

    Sorry everyone I meant to post this to Ian Ironwood’s site under his post regarding Free to be You and Me by Marlo Thomas.

    You might want to delete this as it is appearing here completely in error and out of context.

  • The Hits Keep Coming | Exceed and Lead

    […] Male puts out another killer post. Still a young man, I haven’t given much thought about man caves, and banishment to the couch […]

  • fedrz

    @ Philalethes,

    Hello. I realize you don’t know me, but I sort of know you through reading you online.

    If you read this, I wonder if you could be so kind as to shoot me a quick e-mail at robfedders@yahoo.ca.

    Thanks.

  • gregariouswolf

    We’ve gone from king of the castle to troll in a cave.

    The red pill must have been starting to take effect on me when my ex-wife suggested a man cave. At first I thought she meant the garage. When I fully understood her meaning, I balked. I was like, “you mean I get a room? In my house?” It’s exactly like having a child’s room. “That’s Greg’s room.” In a way this is more than shaming, it is infantilization.

  • Mina

    What if the “Play room” with bar, pool table, big screen, Bose-speaker stereo setup, etc is something you both planned, worked on and created as a place for the two of you to host your private “party for two” two Saturday nights a month? :-D We have a futon down there too and plenty of pillows, toys and other distractions once the music and hanging by the pool table have gotten us too horny to focus. I even have a special set of “pool shootin’ outfits” (slut wear) that he really likes and has “approved” for our weekend parties. Maybe the “man cave” can be fun if it’s really about the MAN (his girl is certainly a part of that, no?)

  • Gila

    My husband’s man cave (horrible term – I agree, it’s disrespectful to men) is our entire house, but he is the master of the house, and that’s how we both like it. He’s never shown any interest in the garage. We both feel sorry for men we see in their garages on cold and rainy Sunday afternoons. Perhaps the garage is a blessed relief from the dragon indoors?

  • Beer and Boobs |

    […] what men get in their man-space. Hooters, football, beer and boobs. Even in their ‘man-caves’ this is what a woman can expect to find. Left to their own devices, men would simply turn the world […]

  • Softek

    My dad’s out in the garage a lot, but that’s because it’s where he keeps the table saw, bench grinder, and all his air and auto tools, and there hasn’t been a single day in my life I remember that he wasn’t working on something around the house. He’s done all of the electrical, plumbing, tiling, crown molding, etc. in our house. Everything.

    But the whole house in my dad’s space. My mom has dinner ready for him every night, cuts his hair, and makes his lunch for work every day. He loves my mom, and my mom respects him.

    I never thought about that until I started reading stuff here. My dad’s been a much more positive influence in my life than I realized. I always thought it was strange when I’d see some of my friend’s dads who seemed pussy whipped, when the idea of my dad coming home and my mom not having dinner ready for him was unimaginable.

    Growing up blue-pill, I always thought my dad was harsh. He would never get up to get anything for himself after he was on the couch and watching TV when he came home from work. He would tell my mom to bring him anything and everything he needed. If she was upstairs he’d yell to her and she’d come down. She’s always done it without question.

    I brought that up with him a few times and asked him why he didn’t get himself, and he just looked at me and said, “Hey, if your mother wants to work full time and pay for everything in this house and be the sole provider for the family, I’ll get it myself. But that’s not how it is, and I just got home from work, and I’m tired. She’s going to get that for me, and I’m going to relax.”

    My mom’s bitched to him a few times about him being impatient and he came right back with the same thing he told me, and that was the end of that every single time.

    Come to think of it, they’ve been married for 34 years and have had no major problems that I remember. They’d argue here and there like anybody would but I don’t remember anything serious even once. I could never in a million years imagine my parents getting divorced, especially not my mom leaving my dad for another guy.

    They love each other, and that’s very clear, but the one thing I never really noticed is how my dad doesn’t put up with anything from her — and she’s tried a lot of times — and it’s the same with other people. It’s not being a jerk; my dad’s just very aware of his value and never allows anyone to undercut him, take advantage of him or try to de-value him. With his relationship with my mom it’s seemed to work out really well.

  • Male Space |

    […] the group of gamer nerds at the local game store, even strip clubs and the sanctuary you think your ‘man cave’ is – the context is one of women inserting themselves into male space in order to enforce the […]

  • Monday Musings: The Red Pill | Reckless Yet Refined

    […] I’m not a playboy. I don’t have the patience or passion to go out and try and bed hundreds of women for sport. That doesn’t mean the rules of the Red Pill can’t help me. In fact, they’ve helped me a lot, for which I’m grateful, because I refuse to end up a man in the garage. […]

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