Owed Sex

ron-hermione

In the aftermath of the Eliot Rodger’s tragedy there was one resounding go-to mantra from mainstream media, blue pill plugins and the femintariat alike…

“Men are not owed sex for anything.”

Last week I left a couple of comments on Dalrock’s blog outlining my expectations of having this be the first easily consumable public meme.

In its entirety:

This is the first binary retort I expect from feminists unwilling to dig any deeper into the transactional nature of human sexuality. God bless Roosh, but he didn’t do the manosphere any favors by simply stating that incidents like Eliot Rodger’s wouldn’t occur if men had more socially acceptable alternatives for sexual release or female intimacy, and then just leave the interpretation up to a media founded on feminism and feminine-primacy.

I get what his intent was, and probably most of the manosphere did too, but it was just too oversimplified not to be snapped up in the most binary (black or white) terms by feminist, like Linker, and the MSM as an easy mark to line up against. So of course “men” and fem-centrists throw out stupid bromides like “what, do we need ‘sex vending machines’ to keep men’s urges in tact so they wont shoot the pretty blondes they wanna fuck?”

The premise that a man would ever be ‘owed’ sex for anything is offensive to the feminine imperative because it offends women’s self-entitlement to being filters of their own hypergamy, plain and simple. Women’s hypergamy dictates whom they will and will not fuck according to their sexual strategy’s most urgent needs.

To presume a man is ‘owed’ sex for services rendered, or due to his own self-perceived prequalifications for a woman’s intimacy, is to remove women’s control of the decision making / filtering process of their hypergamy.

The offensiveness doesn’t come from the notion that men would need to perform in order to get sex, but rather that a man might forcibly assume control of a woman’s hypergamous determining of his sexual suitability for her.

This first comment was in response to the Damon Linker article Dalrock was picking apart. I won’t steal Dal’s thunder, so if you’re interested in that full article go have a read of it in its entirety. Later Dal asked me to clarify what I meant about men “forcibly assuming control of a woman’s hypergamous determining of his sexual suitability for her.”

I’m not clear on what you mean here, and fear that others will take this as a justification of rape. What do you mean by “forcibly”? Are you talking about Game?

To which my comment was, again, in its entirety:

Game, rape, guilt, shame, prearranged marriage, obligation, moral enforcement, really anything that removes or limits a woman’s hypergamous filtering and puts that control into the decision making process of men.

In the case of Rodger, although his killings don’t bear it out, his intent, at least as interpreted by a feminized MSM, was a presumed obligation on the part of women (and top shelf women no less) to recognize his self-perceived superior qualifications for their intimacy and reward him with sex, love, adoration, affection, etc.

Granted, the kid was a sperg with a list of very real psychological disorders, but the only thing a fem-centric society focuses on is the audacity he had in presuming he, and by association Any Man®, could assume control of a woman’s hypergamous filtering – in this case via an implied obligation.

The Two Sides of Hypergamy

Anyone who’s read the first part of my Preventative Medicine series understands the dual nature of feminine hypergamy. From a biological level to a social level, feminine hypergamy demands the optimization of two disparate elements: securing the best genetic (breeding) option a woman can attract, and the best long-term provisioning (security) option she can attract in a male. From biologically prompted mating behaviors to contemporary social entitlements, women seek a balance between breeding optimization and security optimization – preferably in the same man, but failing this, optimally in different men.

I’ve written about women’s security needs in various posts, but it’s important to understand that optimizing a woman’s best available options for hypergamy (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks) prompts a deep, evolved, psychological need for certainty. Feminine Hypergamy is defined by a profound, often life-long, uncertainty and doubt over the choices she makes in breeding and / or bonding with a given pool of men in her lifetime.

The Need for Certainty

Women’s sexual filtering, vetting, nagging, shit testing, as well as many other evolved habits are all subconsciously inspired by a need for hypergamic certainty.

In a pre-sexual revolution social order, a woman’s capacity to optimize her hypergamy (and pacify the uncertainty) had a variety of extrinsic limitations.

Some of these I listed in my comment to Dalrock; guilt, cultural stigma, shame, moral and religious conviction, obligations to family, arranged marriages, polygamy, and yes, rape, were all a means to limiting a woman’s decision making capacity to optimize her innate hypergamy.

Before I continue, let me state in no unclear terms, rape, in its most visceral definition, is bad. I don’t believe the general population of men need a lesson in yet more feminine shaming efforts to understand this simple idea. As most readers know, it’s generally my practice to describe things – not to prescribe things – and allow readers to make their own moral conclusions, but I’ll break form in this case.

Any given reader may see a positive or a negative argument for limiting feminine hypergamy via cultural or religious doctrines, but I am not now, nor will I ever, endorse forced sexual penetration on women (or men) as anything but a negative. However, in light of its undeniable limiting of feminine hypergamous choice, throughout human history, rape is the most direct way men have most decisively removed a woman’s hypergamic decision making capacity. To ignore this truth, or to be cowed by even the thought of considering it, is to deny the obvious.

In a post-sexual revolution social order, women’s control over their hypergamy is only limited by their capacity to attract the best prospective mate their sexuality, personality and physicality will afford them. Whether provided for by the state, personal independence or other means women in a post-sexual revolution era, to a larger degree than any other time in western history, have the security side of their hypergamic optimization virtually guaranteed.

Even with women for whom this security isn’t fully realized, the greater social undercurrent for the past 60 years has been one which presents women with a social responsibility to break away from provisional dependency on men, thus granting women unilateral control over their hypergamous decision making.

Whether this security-side assurance comes from legal institutions, abortion laws, paternity laws, the advent of no fault divorce, child custody and support distribution, or, the security guarantee comes in the form of social conventions which foster the expectation of men to be bound to a one-sided provisioning contract, the modern message is clear for women; Independence from the necessity of men’s provisioning largely reduces or eliminates the uncertainty of  long-term security.

Or in other words, unilateral control of a woman’s hypergamy means Beta Bucks now takes a backseat to Alpha Fucks.

The Old-Order

The provisioning and personal investment in character, masculine virtue and ambition that made the, pre-sexual revolution, old order man an attractive prospect for a woman’s security-side hypergamy no longer carry the necessary appeal they did to ensure he would attract a marriageable woman. For women, the old order of attraction was based primarily on the security side of her hypergamous need because this was the most uncertain aspect she could secure in a social climate where her hypergamous decision making was more constrained.

Not unsurprisingly, women’s prioritizing long-term security inspired men to accommodate it by cultivating provider characteristics in themselves in order to be attractive. This isn’t to say the same Alpha side arousal we see in women’s sexual prioritization today wasn’t important, or tingle generating. Rather, the old social order prioritized women’s security needs since the Alpha Fucks side of her hypergamy was buffered by women’s general dependence on a man’s long-term provisioning.

The problem now is that, since the sexual revolution, the majority of (Beta) men are still raised and conditioned in this old-order context, based on an outmoded social contract that they were taught to ego-invest themselves into in order to best effect their own sexual strategy.

Although it’s the easiest dismissal fem-centric society would have anyone believe, only the most ignorant and self-important of men would ever come to the conclusion that they were owed (in the most transactional sense) the sexual and intimate affections of a woman in exchange for his personal investment, resources, dedication and acts of kindness. Certainly not men raised and conditioned to defer to a woman’s honor and respect, by default, above his own.

However, due to the old order social conditioning that taught them that a man in the unquestioning service of a woman’s security-side hypergamy should be the pinnacle of attraction, their conflict comes not in being denied an owed reward, but rather that rewards of sex, love, adoration, affection, respect, etc. the old-order convinced them they can and should earn is observably being offered to men who embody the exact opposite of his old order conditioning.

Relational Equity vs. Alpha Fucks

Deti picked up on this conflict in the comments of last week’s post:

We as human beings need to eliminate the words “deserve” and “entitled” from our vocabularies. Women are not entitled to anything from men; just as men are not entitled to anything from women. This entire “male sexual entitlement” strawman that our opponents have erected is just bull, plain and simple. Men do not go around claiming “entitlement” to sex; only psychopaths and mental defectives do that.

For anyone unacquainted with the fallacy of Relational Equity, I’d suggest reading that post to get some familiarity. Relational Equity is the idea that the more a man invests himself into his relationship, all of the investment, emotional, physical, financial, familial, etc. equity he accrues for that dedication and commitment should be rationally appreciated by a woman and thus a buffer against the Alpha Fucks side of feminine hypergamy.

In essence this fallacy is the is rooted in the old order, security-side dependence of women’s hypergamy – the trust is that Beta Bucks will trump Alpha Fucks.

A man’s ego-investment into this fallacy is often the cause of his want to define Alpha in his own image, rather than remove his ego from the process and observe how women react and behave around men they actually have an Alpha arousal for. An example of this old order Beta disconnect is embodied in the person of Corey Worthington (a.k.a. the Alpha Buddah):

Guy’s like Corey infuriate men who have invested their self-worth in the accomplishments of what they think ought to be universally appreciated and rewarded. So when they’re confronted with a natural Alpha being undeservedly rewarded for brazenly acting out of accord with what they think the rules ought to be, they seethe with resentment. The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator. The conflict then comes from seeing his new definition of Alpha not being rewarded or even appreciated as well as a natural Alpha attitude and the cycle continues. Your respect (or anyone else’s) for an Alpha has nothing to do with whether or not he possess an Alpha mindset. 3 failed marriages and 100+ lays has nothing to do with his having or not having an Alpha mindset. There are many well respected betas who’ve never had a passing thought of infidelity, or may have 300 lays either with prostitutes or because they possess fame or stunning good looks and women come to him by matter of course.

I wrote this almost three years ago, but the parallels of this ‘Alpha in his own image’ dynamic that Eliot Rodger shared with men conditioned in the old order of earning or meriting women’s intimacy are undeniable. Despite Arthur Chu’s male-apologetic mewling, it’s not that men like this feel ‘entitled to or ‘owed‘ sex with their idealized women, but they do feel their investments in a relational equity, and what they’ve been conditioned to believe should qualify them for women’s attentions have been betrayed to men who gratify the Alpha Fucks side of women’s hypergamous natures.

Feminine-Primary Assortive Mating

 “When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”

― Sheryl Sandberg, Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead

Ironically the best spokeswoman to illustrate the dichotomy between both sides of women’s hypergamy should be Sheryl Sandberg – the voice and embodiment of several generations of women raised on the Feminine Imperative and unilaterally unrestrained hypergamy. So oblivious is Sandberg to her feminine-primary, solipsistic confirmation of hypergamy that it never occurs to her that men would be anything but accommodating of her life-plan advice for younger generations of women. It never occurs to her that a “man who values fairness” would ever reject her (much less despise her) for the duplicity that women’s dualistic sexual strategy disenfranchises men of.

So you see, it’s not a red pill awakening that predisposes men to believing they’re ‘owed’, ‘entitled to’ or ‘deserving’ of sex, love, adoration, affection or anything else from women – it’s the generations of women like Sandberg who unabashedly exploit the old order conditioning of Beta Bucks men, while expecting them to dutifully accept their open or discrete cuckoldry with Alpha Fucks men – and then tell them that “nothing’s sexier” than their complacency in it with a wriggle of their nose.

 

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[…] Owed Sex […]

Ace Haley
Guest

Of course men aren’t “owed” sex. Women aren’t “owed” your money either but you NEVER see anyone say that.

The trope about men not being owed sex has already reached a level where it’s all about rubbing it in on men who don’t feel their hard work and all that other jazz is appreciated. It’s a defense mechanism for women who feel like pieces of shit for not giving those reliable guys trim. It’s too bad I have to say it that way but that’s the way this all sounds like to me.

jf12
Guest
jf12

“throughout human history, rape is the most direct way men have most decisively removed a woman’s hypergamic decision making capacity.”

True. And the most decisive alternative was the patriarchy.

jf12
Guest
jf12

She’s literally right that “over time, nothing is sexier” because by then the old woman will prefer nothing to anything.

jf12
Guest
jf12

Roughly speaking the abundance mentality is precisely an entitlement mentality: by experience he knows he can get sex from another woman so he feel entitled to sex from the class of objects (objectification) exemplifying Woman. And this is exactly what works: treating women as unspecial sex objects entitled to nothing except being treated as interchangeable.

What does NOT work is treating a woman like she is entitled to be special.

AD
Guest
AD

I wrote about this same topic last week..

http://dissention.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/did-society-owe-elliot-rodger-sex/

Wanderer
Guest
Wanderer

While I have read all of your material, this post finally makes clear to me why there are so many men (Including myself to a certain degree… though much more self-aware) who possess a beta provider mindset as opposed to a dominant alpha mindset… …Women will naturally sexually prefer men with dominate genes and behavior (Alpha) over a man with dominant provisioning (Beta provider) since the legal/financial framework of the western world practically guarantees that a woman is provided for in all of her “security” areas of life… This much has been obvious to me for a good while now.… Read more »

Urban Meyer
Guest
Urban Meyer

Sandberg’s advice to girls is perfect: slut it up in your party years because there will be a “good man” waiting for you when you’re ready to settle down. Kanye West even brags about being the amazing beta in the song “I won” talking about marrying Kim Kardashian.

“I made it over nba, nfl players. So every time I score it’s like the Super Bowl”

Will
Guest
Will

Couple things: I think it’s more that once you are in a relationship the man feels happiest and best when he has control over his girls physicality (I.e. He can have sex with her whenever and she treats him like a king and sexes him). B/c that’s how it should be. Women sex their man to keep him coming back (think primal level). So yes I think in healthy relationships the girl won’t make sex an issue. But Rogers had the whole “courtship” part of it confused. I’ve been so so sickingly beta with a girl and she still let… Read more »

TC
Guest
TC

Women are right, they don’t owe men sex. But that goes both ways. Men don’t owe women any long term material or physical support either. They can fix their own cars, kill their own spiders, check for intruders and pay for their own retirement. Feminism has been nothing but a blatant attempt by women to shirk their traditional responsibilities while still receiving all the benefits. While many men are still stuck in the provider mindset, many more have wised up. Is it any wonder that anti-depressant use by American women is way up?

evilwhitemalempire
Guest
evilwhitemalempire

Here’s a question that will have them livid. If rape is all about power and not sex then what’s so rapey about men thinking they’re owed sex? For years they’ve been saying rape is about power and nothing to do with sex in order to deny rapists what we might now more effectively articulate as the ‘Pity of Rodgers’. This is because the ‘Pity of Rodgers’ has always been an embarrassment for feminists as they’ve tried passing themselves off as sexual egalitarians. The rape=power and ONLY power meme was intended to dehumanize alleged rapists. With the ‘Pity of Rodgers’ problem… Read more »

Zelcorpion
Guest
Zelcorpion

Ah wonderful:

The entitlements or expectations of both genders are inborn. Practically all women expect some White Knight to assist her as she attacks a man at a bar or in school. They also expect someone to find her attractive and be willing to sleep with her. The pretty ones take it actually for granted.

Now on the other side the Game-aware men expect a certain cut/percentage of women to sleep with them based on their experience/skill level/attraction potential.

In my opinion women are the by far more entitled sex out there.

alcockell
Guest

So what hope is there for the quiet Asperger man – to get ANY kind of sexual fulfilment?

Is someone like me destined to only ever be a shell of a person?

I don’t want to live in that type of world… where if I have to go to a prostitute and feel even more grimy coming away?

Mazrim
Guest
Mazrim

I feel your pain alcockell, and I’d say don’t ever give up and you CAN remake yourself into a more sociable and outgoing person. Walk tall & proud, look people in the eye and smile and say hello to acquaintances and strangers alike, and the results may surprise you! This whole Eliot Roger mess has caused me to wonder if men are merely irrelevant and disposable to women. History would indicate a resounding yes in my opinion. Having read Eliot’s diary in its entirety, it becomes very obvious, at least from his perspective, that his parents were complete failures in… Read more »

kaimwa
Guest
kaimwa

I have a question. I read a post by Roosh. He intimated that you need to be a clown for the post sexual revolution female to get with her. That self improvement and esoteric knowledge are not something impressive to most of them. With this background and more men realising that you can get more bang for your buck (pun intended) are we then heading towards a place where our culture disincentives young men to apply themselves in furthering our civilisation. This then causing a stagnation in that aspect. I do believe that on a sub conscious level the old… Read more »

alcockell
Guest

Oh – and factor in being a sexual abuse victim of female perps at 13, developmental age 8.

Something tells me I might need a LOT of warmth and tenderness inbound in order to not flinch away…

One Eyed Drunk
Guest
One Eyed Drunk

This post is absolutely truth. I was a white knight early in my marriage. I was in the IV drip of the sex. I then realized I have no reason to provide the beta provisioning, ignore her shit tests, and do my own thing. You know what happened? I was getting laid like tile. Change your attitude, hold her accountable, and give off the abundance mentality mindset. It’s amazing how things change.

Johnycomelately
Guest
Johnycomelately

Cultural lag http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_lag Seems like women adapted to unrestrained hyperagamy changes rather quickly as the benefits were experienced immediately and directly, the pill, abortion, welfare, affirmative action, no fault divorce etc. Whereas for men it’s taken far longer for the changes to take effect due to their indirect nature. It will be interesting to see how long it will take for men to adapt, but some changes show there is a tectonic shift, low marriage rates, increased cohabitation, lower economic achievement, MGTOW, lower home purchases etc. As adapted male cultural sign posts spread (redpill, manosphere, PUA, MGTOW etc.) it shouldn’t… Read more »

deti
Guest
deti

A woman is not entitled to commitment from any man. A woman is not entitled to any man’s money, time, resources, attention or sexual fidelity.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

The old order ethis is/was better. It worked. That is of a bygone era because men allowed religion to be thrown away.

Faith of out FATHERS

the old ethic “order” and religion were inseparable.
You don’t believe me?
Look at Iran.

deti
Guest
deti

If we are going to say that men are not entitled to sex (they’re not) and don’t ‘deserve’ sex (they don’t), then we must also say that women are not entitled to, and don’t ‘deserve’, commitment, time, money, resources, attention, or fidelity. Also, someone at Dalrock’s said this: If we as a society say that men are not owed sex for anything they give, (be that commitment or something else), then the converse of that must also be true, and it is: Women are not owed anything for the sex they give men. That’s not much to construct a social… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

So you see, it’s not a red pill awakening that predisposes men to believing they’re ‘owed’, ‘entitled to’ or ‘deserving’ of sex, love, adoration, affection or anything else from women – it’s the generations of women like Sandberg who unabashedly exploit the old order conditioning of Beta Bucks men, while expecting them to dutifully accept their open or discrete cuckoldry with Alpha Fucks men – and then tell them that “nothing’s sexier” than their complacency in it with a wriggle of their nose. Yep. Also, your exposing of Sandberg’s ignorance was fantastic. Women say: “When it comes time to settle… Read more »

SGT Ted
Guest

The mistake you are all making is listing “rape” in with what are otherwise legitimate and non-criminal cultural restrictions and permissions of sexual conduct that are considered to be a normal part of the broad range of sexual transactions that are ever changing and malleable. You draw a target on yourselves when you make the assertion that rape is all a part of that. Sorry, but rape isn’t a part of that, however you slice it. Rape is a violent crime, not a “mating strategy”. Self inflicted wound. Own Goal. Don’t do it, it come across as cluelessly dumb and… Read more »

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

Men are the true romantics, right? I just heard the song ‘100 Ways’ by James Ingram on one of my nostalgia radio stations. What a lovely song and sentiment. It appeals to me.

But I doubt it appeals as much to your garden-variety modern-day woman, for whom it was intended. (Ok, the song is 30+ years old. I can’t relate to how things were back then.)

SGT Ted
Guest

“Women are right, they don’t owe men sex. But that goes both ways. Men don’t owe women any long term material or physical support either. They can fix their own cars, kill their own spiders, check for intruders and pay for their own retirement. Feminism has been nothing but a blatant attempt by women to shirk their traditional responsibilities while still receiving all the benefits.”

Agree totally.

Jeremy
Guest

I just had a sort of depressing thought.

If men are the true romantics, then realistically men who write/sing love songs are almost no different than skanks. They’re exposing everything women’s hypergamy predisposes them to want to see from a man, and gaining female attention from it. Women who find themselves lusting over such men are simply following instinct, as instinctive as a man’s wandering eye.

roe
Guest
roe

Alcockell – Hi – I’ve seen you around and identify strongly, as someone who’s a bit of a sperg myself (one of my kids is officially diagnosed high-functioning autistic). Let me give you some advice, FWIW: Stop reading the manosphere. Seriously, the alpha thing is fine as an aspirational model but you aren’t in a mental frame where you can implement it. Reading it will only discourage you. The doom and gloom and biomechanics are only part of the story – you need to make a virtue-based relationship your goal. IIRC, you’re in therapy to deal with the trauma of… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Steve H, women love to imagine themselves as appreciative of romance. It’s possible that women really do recognize that they ought to love betas better, even though we know women can’t.

Jeremy
Guest

@alcockell I was about to disagree with Roe and his suggestion to stop reading the manosphere. But after reading your second comment, I’m forced to agree. You’ve been sexually abused by women, so much of what the men of the manosphere say may sound wholly alien and incomprehensible. You reading the manosphere and trying to use game sounds like sexually liberated women trying to convince a female rape victim that she should be out at bars giving indications of sexual interest to men. Make sure you’ve gotten past the abuse, make sure you can see women for what they truly… Read more »

roe
Guest
roe

Cosigned, Jeremy. It’s not that sphere can’t help, but that he needs to get to a place emotionally where the sphere can help.

jf12
Guest
jf12

Wanderer asks “Can four billion alphas exist on the same planet?”

The answer is yes, if women treat them right.

Jeremy
Guest

Fear of discussing rape in it’s proper context is little more than subscribing to the FI wholesale. The FI *wants* you to be afraid to speak of such things. They want this because if they control the conversation, your views are squelched out. Don’t let them do that. Rollo’s description of what rape was (and is still in some countries), is proper and must be part of the discussion he was opening or he would have been missing out on the elephant in the room.

A Visitor
Guest
A Visitor

Great article, Rollo. I just finished reading The Rational Male. As you said, we wouldn’t agree with all of it. Nonetheless, it did open my eyes to how past relationships have faltered and why. It’s also made me more understanding of what is going on around me. For that, I thank you!

jf12
Guest
jf12

It seems relevant to me that an effeminate man presents his lowered libido and feelings of being staggered by being desired by men as evidence of his girlishness.
http://thoughtcatalog.com/anonymous/2014/06/male-entitlement-is-not-strictly-hetero/

davidvs
Guest

In reply to alcockell, > So what hope is there for the quiet Asperger man – > to get ANY kind of sexual fulfilment? Is someone > like me destined to only ever be a shell of a person? Most social norms are really tests, not rules. You pass the test by breaking the “rule”. http://davidvs.net/hobbies/masculinity-norms.shtml You need not often act upon these truths. But you should be able to call out when they happen. And you should be able to act on them once or twice, in moments of crisis and courage, in “self defense” when you need to… Read more »

deti
Guest
deti

Is a married man “entitled” to sex from his wife? Traditionally, and according to the Christian faith, the answer is: Yes, he is. Is a married woman “entitled” to money and resources from her husband? Traditionally and according to the Christian faith, the answer is: Yes, she is. But as we’ve moved away from traditionalism and Christianity as the dominant moral force, a man is not entitled to sex, not even from his wife. He must continue earning sex, “deserving” sex, qualifying for sex. But a wife IS still entitled to money and resources from her husband, even if she… Read more »

Wanderer
Guest
Wanderer

@jf12

Perhaps I should clarify my question, “Can four billion alphas CO-EXIST on the same planet?”

If Alpha equals aggression and aggression equals violence, then what happens when all of the betas man up? If men respond to current female sexual preferences, which I think they will, where does that put the trajectory of civilization and mankind?

Martel
Guest

@ kaimwa: “With this background and more men realising that you can get more bang for your buck (pun intended) are we then heading towards a place where our culture disincentives young men to apply themselves in furthering our civilisation. This then causing a stagnation in that aspect. I do believe that on a sub conscious level the old order created a lot of ingenuity due to the reward of respect and intimacy that is a great motivator for men.” Very much correct. I know this isn’t typically the site for political prescriptions, but now that Beta Bucks has largely… Read more »

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

@Deti,
Of course you are correct about traditionalism and Christianity.
When Christianity left we were left in a moral vacuum, aka a normless society where base myopic desires rule everything (sex diaster, largest debtor nation, 50% single Mom homes)

You simply cannot have civilization without norms that are informed by a/any religious system of thought.

You said
” She usually uses the children to secure those resources and is not required to account for how the money is spent.”

To me, her inaccountability is the most disgusting part.

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Wanderer. A male’s alphaness or betaness are defined by females’ behavior towards him. If women try to themselves easier for a man, especially sexually, then he is alpha. If women make themselves difficult for a man, especially sexually, making him work for it, then he is beta. If he has to bring bananas for her and groom her, then he is beta.

In contrast, alphas do NOT have to work for it. Four billion alpha males can certainly kick back in their hammocks and politely decline the lemonade their wives made.

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Martel, re: “But unless men get rewarded (with women) for doing what needs to be done, there won’t be enough men around to do it.”

A subtopic at Dalrock involves sexbots. Obviously sexbots won’t “take over” if they are too expensive and out of reach for the ordinary man, but if they become both cheap *and* effective then many men won’t do anything but.

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ Rollo – This entire article could have been written without mentioning Elliot Rodger or Roosh once. Elliot was alienated from humanity in a profound way, and if you bothered to read and listen to what Elliot has to say in his own words (he left a 107,000 page manifesto) instead of focusing on what PUA noobs have to say about it, you’d realize that he was headed down this path of social isolation and complete alienation at the age of 10 or 11. He was profoundly disturbed and sick. His own actual story, fully digested, makes one realize that… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

To me, a PUA is more controlled by women than any Beta because he runs his life around women – which is the opposite of what has happened to me since taking the Red Pill. I come here because you are not Roosh and not an idiot. If you consider game valuable, and since you respect Rollo, I presume that is the case… How do you propose to learn game, outside of essentially becoming a PUA for time? I think there’s a lot of people who see the letters P-U-A, and presume that it *only* leads to a life of… Read more »

SGT Ted
Guest

“It may not be prudent to put rape in a list of criminal vs.non-criminal cultural restrictions on mating strategies, but it very much is/was an anti-social mating strategy. Though it probably wasn’t a conscious process, our less-than-civil ancestors definitely used rape as a mating strategy.” I agree with this. And I agree with talking about “rape” in the context of ancient societies and warfare, as it was quite common and part of the ancient cultures notions of the spoils of war. As a primitive biological mating strategy, ala duck sex, I get it. But when you discuss “rape” as a… Read more »

Retrenched
Guest
Retrenched

If you could sum up the essence of blue pill social programming in three words, it would be… ‘Compliance is sexy.’ Serve the feminine imperative, facilitate women’s sexual utopia, allow women to do whatever they want without judgment or consequence, and they will appreciate it and reward you.

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ Rollo – Lay down with dogs and you get fleas. Roosh is a racist and homophobe. I don’t associate or quote or flatter such people and you do so publicly at your own peril and to your own detriment. He also emits some horribly misogynistic shit from time to time too, but hey, in the PUA community that’s par for the course. And guess what? Bigots and homophobes can make sense sometimes – so what? I shun them no matter what. I don’t cherrypick. And if you want great PUA advice without any of the bigotry, or the out… Read more »

Retrenched
Guest
Retrenched

@ Rollo

Feminists loathe male desire, but male desire extends far beyond just whom they’d like to bang. The feminine imperative loathes the idea that men’s desires should even be recognized.

Yes. Which is why they use shaming language to police the male sex drive — calling desire for sex ‘entitlement’, calling finding a woman attractive ‘objectification’ and so on. The goal is to shame betas away from pursuing pre-wall women, so they can spend their party years exclusively with the alphas.

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

@Al – “where if I have to go to a prostitute and feel even more grimy coming away?” You don’t have to feel grimy or dirty about it. You have the power to love yourself before, during, and after any kind of sexual encounter whether it involves any exchange of money or not. I’m sorry to hear about the hell that you’ve been through. I can’t relate to your particular, horrible struggle. However, you are not destined to remain a victim. Whether or not you remain a victim is very much under your independent control. Look at Sean Stephenson. Seriously,… Read more »

Martel
Guest

Although Roosh is decidedly anti-gay, it’s Roissy that focuses on race. I’m not familiar with Roosh bringing race up much at all (btw, he’s ethnically Iranian).

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

I didn’t realize how much ‘100 Ways’ relates to this post until just now…

After the singer completes that laundry list of sweet, idealistic, super-romantic stuff, we get to the very last stanza…

“In your arms tonight, she’ll reflect / That she owes you the sweetest of debts. If she wants to pay, find 100 ways.”

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ Jeremy – Why do you think that one has to become a PUA to get laid and use game effectively? One does not imply the other. The PUA makes his life about getting laid. Rollo is a master of game – but not a PUA, yes?

Bluepillprofessor
Guest
Bluepillprofessor

@Glenn: Get over it. Roosh is a writer and thinker and a doer. He has a lot to teach us. Take what you can and reject what you can’t but don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. And tarring Rollo by association is way out of line and unwarranted. @Deti: Your writings and insightful analysis have helped me a lot. I think the solution is for men to go into relationships DEMANDING perpetual conjugal rights before they will commit to marriage. If the wife reneges then you file for divorce. Nice and simple but it won’t happen on… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Often you get a more interesting view of something if you turn it around and upside down. Let’s characterize women’s default position as being OWED nonsexualization. “Why does it always have to be about sex?” they whine. “Didn’t we just do it last Tuesday, or maybe the Tuesday before that?” “I’m happy with the sex we’re not having, and therefore you should be too.”

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

I have to retract something. I did spend a bit of time reading up and listening to Roosh in my early days in the Red Pill world on CH. But then I kept seeing these race realist articles – and since it’s Roosh’s site, I thought that he was one too. But after some research I just did I realize that he isn’t a race realist, so I retract that criticism. He’s only a guy who publishes racist crap on his site and makes common cause with racists to build blog-site traffic, my mistake. I actually am published and blog… Read more »

equilibro
Guest
equilibro

So much introspective self-pity in so many of the responses here. So many obvious losers, at least so far in their lives.

I described my Alpha remedy in the “Male Space” response that I posted there, and I point you at it now if you didn’t see it then.

jacklabear
Guest
jacklabear

“Men do not go around claiming “entitlement” to sex; only psychopaths and mental defectives do that.”

Women claim entitlement to all kinds of things, so what does that say about their mental state?

Timber St. James
Guest

I struggle to wrap my mind around the thesis here: sex is absolutely not owed by women, but commitment/provision absolutely is by men (often taken by proxy/government when not White Knighted away freely). Here’s a thought experiment about a scenario that would never, ever happen: What if the inverse happened in the Rodger case? A misfit, emotionally stunted, mis-parented girl does it all right (she thinks). She’s developed amazing sexual technique, watched porn to know what the boys like, can cook like Martha Stewart… yet just cannot get a guy to commit to her? Tension and self-loathing grow and fester… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

@Glenn Why do you think that one has to become a PUA to get laid and use game effectively? One does not imply the other. The PUA makes his life about getting laid. Rollo is a master of game – but not a PUA, yes? You are proposing that there is some other effective method to learning game other than literally approaching lots of women or social situations with a goal (such as emulating PUA’s)? What is this method? If you’re going to ask that question, you must already know some other method. Do tell. I’ll grant you that there’s… Read more »

Chris M.
Guest
Chris M.

That’s why I love this site, no racial or political crap. I came here to better my life and concentrate on the things I can control(it has helped me tremendously in my personal life). This is by far the best place for red pill knowledge. Keep up the great work RT!

jf12
Guest
jf12

No man has claimed a right to be found sexually desirable i.e. to be treated sexually. But women have claimed a right to be free from being treated sexually. Literally, the only existing entitlement is that of women being owed nonsex.

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

Glenn – I want to respond to your question addressed to ‘you guys’… These are *my views* as I see it, and as I read it: On Roosh – like Forney, has descended to some pretty hateful ‘screeds’ out of anger. I give him somewhat of a pass for this because he writes or publishes every day, and really puts himself out there, and in the process of traveling the world and putting himself in the line of fire, he’s bound to be angry from time to time. But it does belie a lack of self-control – and that’s ripe… Read more »

Martel
Guest

@ Rollo: “it pollutes the message.” I know you’ll never agree (and that’s fine), but I want to leave my $.02 anyway. The Red Pill is Truth, and Truth neither can nor will ever exist in a vacuum. The realities of socio-sexual markets and attraction have implications political, economic, moral, and cultural. When somebody awakens as to how things really operate, it’s not only going to alter their personal behavior, it’s going to affect how they view the world at large, and the world at large is about a hell of a lot more than just who screws who and… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Woman claims dolphin deserved sexual release because it was part of his maleness.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/woman-who-sex-dolphin-during-3665157
“She added: “It was sexual on his part – it was not sexual on mine, sensuous perhaps.
“It would just become part of what was going on like an itch, just get rid of that we’ll scratch and we would be done and move on.
“I was there to get to know Peter, that was part of Peter.””

id monster
Guest
id monster

“When it comes to one night stands size does matter, according to a new study – but it’s not what you expect. Women prefer men with a wider manhood for a casual fling the research from UCLA in Los Angeles found, while the preferred length stayed the same. But it’s not all bad news for those lacking in the manhood department, because girls are more likely to prefer something thinner when they’re choosing a long-term partner.” http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/science/sorry-men-comes-one-night-3673891 I lold at the last paragraph. Some may disagree with me but I’ve always held the belief that alpha is genetically determined. Sure… Read more »

scratche2013
Guest

Urban Meyer June 12th, 2014 at 2:09 am Sandberg’s advice to girls is perfect: slut it up in your party years because there will be a “good man” waiting for you when you’re ready to settle down. Kanye West even brags about being the amazing beta in the song “I won” talking about marrying Kim Kardashian. “I made it over nba, nfl players. So every time I score it’s like the Super Bowl” LMAO, I never watched the whole kardashian sex tape – did that rapper jizz on her face or tits? Either way I’m sure he is totally broke… Read more »

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

Martel writes “Like you say in different words in your post, we’ve governmentally outsourced Beta Bux away from individual men, thus giving women less incentive to want to interact with betas sexually. How can this NOT be somehow connected with politics? How can the ramifications of this NOT change our economy? How can it be addressed in any meaningful sense without any connection with morality?”
2nded

jf12
Guest
jf12

I think women actually enjoy owing sex to an alpha. They feel he deserves it, because he turns women on. 102% of women erroneously believe that an alpha’s sex drive is higher than other men’s, thereby entitling him to more sex from women. What women hate is *thinking* they can be made to feel obligated; they actually enjoy the actual feelings of obligation.

trackback

[…] Owed Sex (The Rational Male) […]

Slothrop
Guest
Slothrop

@jf12 — I agree, and by “entitling” a man who she believes is worthy, a woman is really just maximizing her own sexual pleasure by ceasing to be the bedroom arbiter. Additionally, she’s creating a relationship structured that the ‘alpha male’* might consider committing to. So women certainly benefit from this arrangement. (* sometimes I have to bite my tongue about all the alpha-posturing in the man-o-sphere. This “entitling” process is very common in teenage relationships for example, and not just with the badboys.) As much as the days of traditional marriage are glorified, there were still plenty of cheaters,… Read more »

M3
Guest
johnnightwrites
Guest

Well, women are not entitled to physical security from men either.

JackBlack23
Guest
JackBlack23

@Glenn

Your view of Krauser would certainly diminish if you ever checked out his twitter feed where he frequently professes “racist” and “homophobic” opinions which will most assuredly shock your easily butthurt sensibilities … oh and being a UK resident, he’s also become (heaven forbid!) quite an “Islamophobe” …

jf12
Guest
jf12

@M3 re: link. Thought for the week: You can never be too unsure.

Amit
Guest

@M3 This is not far from the truth. I was in a situation where I moistened a female but didn’t take it any further,,, she went ballistic! When only a couple of weeks before, she was doing the exact thing to me. Obviously it was fine then.

gunslingergregi
Guest
gunslingergregi

TC
June 12th, 2014 at 3:52 am

Women are right, they don’t owe men sex. But that goes both ways.
””””””””

exactly but flip the script
we men do not owe woman sex
forget about all that other crap below and internalize that
and say no to some woman for sex and see what they do then

gunslingergregi
Guest
gunslingergregi

It’s been made pretty clear now that if men want sex or anything else from women, they have to earn it. They have to prove their worthiness. Men “deserve” sex only to the extent that a woman (women) deem them worthy of sex. If a man has sex with a woman, she has deemed him worthy to receive it; she has declared (implicitly) that he “deserves” her sexual favors. We do not confer worthiness on ourselves; we “deserve” what we get only to the extent someone else believes we “deserve” or have earned it. ””””””’ flip the script again if… Read more »

gunslingergregi
Guest
gunslingergregi

you a man have to be very careful about what woman you give your gift of sex to
you are not a piece of meat for them
not a trained monkey
it is more ego validating for you to have sex with them than for them to have sex with you

gunslingergregi
Guest
gunslingergregi

woman need sex more than men
when have you seen a woman without a man taking care of her sexual needs?
and you find out this reality of life when you say no to them

Che
Guest
Che

@Deti… “So we have to consider: if a married man is not entitled to the one benefit he’s supposed to get from marriage (even during the course of the marriage), then a married woman is not entitled to her husband’s money or resources (even during the course of the marriage). Why ought a wife during the course of the marriage not be required to continue earning commitment, “deserving” commitment, and qualifying for commitment?” If not providing sex to her husband, a woman definitely should not be entitled to a man’s resources. But children complicate this picture immensely, as they most… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Che, re: “Changing to an alpha mindset within a marriage where the beta “script” has been written, doesn’t really work IMHO.”

I wholeheartedly agree without any caveats or reservations whatsoever. Whenever a woman has treated you as a beta, she is irretrievably lost to you forever. Whatever you two might have had, whatever further heights of destiny the relationship should have achieved, she destroyed it.

Rollo has made the same point repeatedly but more guardedly, something to the effect that a new relationship is always going to be easier on you.

jf12
Guest
jf12

gunslingergregi makes an interesting albeit incorrect observation “woman need sex more than men when have you seen a woman without a man taking care of her sexual needs? and you find out this reality of life when you say no to them” Let’s rewrite this a little, however. Most women cannot be bothered to masturbate except irregularly at most, especially if in a relationship. Her body does need to get off, but her brain is mostly disconnected from her body. Her man is the person who gets her off, almost entirely due to his own desire and his own perseverence.… Read more »

The Burninator
Guest
The Burninator

@Che What am I missing? Nothing, you sum it up rather succinctly. Women screech on about infidelity in males and how evil and wrong it is, but are absolutely blind to how equally evil and wrong withholding sex is in the course of a marriage. They want to have 100% control over the husband’s sexual options while simultaneously denying him the one option he has. They are basically sadists, and society is structured around letting them get away with it. In your shoes I’d say go for it, under the context you outlined. In the past I’d caution “Be careful… Read more »

John LaPre
Guest
John LaPre

@Glenn From Krauser’s FAQ: Are you racist / sexist / homophobic? “Yes. That said, I reject the labels because rathe rthan describing any kind of character trait or reality the “-ist” labels are really just smear weapons to shut down debate and force compliance of the subject in his own destruction. The worst discrimination in the UK is visited on white straight males. That’s not to say we have the worst quality of life, just that when we succeed its due to the value we are able to give to the world rather than being propped up by value stolen… Read more »

deti
Guest
deti

@ Che: “After all, if I’m safe, discreet, don’t shove my wife’s face in it, and continue to “provision” for those things that are clearly most important to my spouse (and where she gets an A) is it really so unethical or immoral to go outside of the marriage to get the one thing she doesn’t provide?” Yes. If it’s that bad, end the marriage. “If the rules are that I’m no longer entitled to sex with my wife in exchange for provisioning, fine…. I’m still prepared to meet her more than halfway: I’ll continue to provision, but will take… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

@deti, yes but “she ought” has no bearing on a woman’s behaviors.

Zorro
Guest
Zorro

I believe main stream media is the problem with owed sex. How many movies and mostly tv shows depict owed sex as funny. Female characters condition male characters through sex. If you comply, and do what I want, you get sex tonight, and the laugh track plays. “Girls” see this everyday and espire to become that hardcore female character. Thinking, wow, she gets exactly what she wants through sex, and she has the power to use it how ever she wants. Males (Beta) believe this is how it must be, if I do good, I get sex! It’s a joke… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

This is vaguely related.
http://www.wyldfireapp.com/#intro
The new dating app, designed by women, only permits preselected men to be in the dating pool.

Fred Flange, S.J.
Guest
Fred Flange, S.J.

Agree with Deti on how to deal with the friendzoning wife. Often this disillusion can be reversed – that’s what MMSL is all about – but in those sad instances where the wife has put you in a permanent friendzone then it ends there; no point in banging your head on the wall hoping it falls down. Big disagree with Martel and jf12. Insisting that politics inform all sphere discussions is absolutely the same thing as “the personal is political.” It is the road to forced orthodoxy, victim puking, shaming tactics, and shooting in the back the very people you… Read more »

Zorro
Guest
Zorro

Let me add to that… Nobody male or female is owed sex. Even through marriage. If you’re an Alpha, she will want to have sex with you. For the majority unhappy married man posting here… Stop being lazy, and pick up your game! Just as much as you want to tag that smoking hot woman at the office, I’m sure she wants to do the same at hers with that alpha.

bbb
Guest
bbb

@Che: I completely understand and agree with your thinking. However, there is the second way, the way that saved my marriage (so far). When my wife started getting fat, she would model it to me in the mirror, asking me the classic “DTPMMLF”. Later, when menopause hit, she announced that her libido was gone and that she intended to shear her hair into something “more practical”. At Lens Crafters, she loudly asked me what my opinion was of the glasses she picked out for herself. And more. Fortunately, but unknowingly, I had been preparing for years for these moments. By… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

Re the Che/Deti conversation… A lot of women in the developed world, the U.S. especially, regard marriage as effectively winning the lottery. They’ve all been taught (either directly with single-parent homes, or through the media) that once children are involved, no man can refuse provisioning under any circumstances. This is why, as soon as kids enter the picture, so many women completely abandon any pretense of attempting to earn provisioning by building attraction with their man. They’ve “won”, it is “game over”, and they know it. The full force of the law is on the side of women if it… Read more »

Zorro
Guest
Zorro

Hell yeah bbb!

LiveFearless
Guest

@Zorro Great points but please don’t try using the truth about our industry out here on men that are addicted to their watching team sports, their scripted ‘news’ sources they believe to be real, their games… Please don’t try to convince them that women want sex (just, not with them)… They’re unable to realize that in 2012, almost 200 million units of the ‘Fifty Shades’ trilogy were sold to, then quickly devoured by (not men) women. Do they know the content of the stuff she reads, hears, sees? Clearly, the answer would be No. It’s easier for them to believe… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

@bbb he initiates sex regularly now and whether that’s because of HRT or an reawakened interest in me – I don’t give a shit. People (in general, but especially women), become more sexually active when they exercise regularly. Your body is not designed to be an inactive lump of carbohydrate processing, it’s designed to be used. When it isn’t used, the first thing that starts shutting down is the most basic and plentiful feature of the body, the mitochondrion in your cells. This means that your energy levels subside so that cellular tissue does not have to deal with the… Read more »

deti
Guest
deti

Cosign Jeremy’s comment. That’s pretty much how it works. I’m convinced the main reason a lot of men are staying in their crappy marriages is for their kids, and because they know they won’t see them again. It’s a myth that men don’t love their kids; that moms love their kids and care about their kids more than dads do. Why the fuck do women think men get their asses out of bed and go to soul-sucking jobs? Che: Bottom line is this. If you’re at your best, you’re running some soft dread, and you’re making it pretty clear that… Read more »

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