Owed Sex

ron-hermione

In the aftermath of the Eliot Rodger’s tragedy there was one resounding go-to mantra from mainstream media, blue pill plugins and the femintariat alike…

“Men are not owed sex for anything.”

Last week I left a couple of comments on Dalrock’s blog outlining my expectations of having this be the first easily consumable public meme.

In its entirety:

This is the first binary retort I expect from feminists unwilling to dig any deeper into the transactional nature of human sexuality. God bless Roosh, but he didn’t do the manosphere any favors by simply stating that incidents like Eliot Rodger’s wouldn’t occur if men had more socially acceptable alternatives for sexual release or female intimacy, and then just leave the interpretation up to a media founded on feminism and feminine-primacy.

I get what his intent was, and probably most of the manosphere did too, but it was just too oversimplified not to be snapped up in the most binary (black or white) terms by feminist, like Linker, and the MSM as an easy mark to line up against. So of course “men” and fem-centrists throw out stupid bromides like “what, do we need ‘sex vending machines’ to keep men’s urges in tact so they wont shoot the pretty blondes they wanna fuck?”

The premise that a man would ever be ‘owed’ sex for anything is offensive to the feminine imperative because it offends women’s self-entitlement to being filters of their own hypergamy, plain and simple. Women’s hypergamy dictates whom they will and will not fuck according to their sexual strategy’s most urgent needs.

To presume a man is ‘owed’ sex for services rendered, or due to his own self-perceived prequalifications for a woman’s intimacy, is to remove women’s control of the decision making / filtering process of their hypergamy.

The offensiveness doesn’t come from the notion that men would need to perform in order to get sex, but rather that a man might forcibly assume control of a woman’s hypergamous determining of his sexual suitability for her.

This first comment was in response to the Damon Linker article Dalrock was picking apart. I won’t steal Dal’s thunder, so if you’re interested in that full article go have a read of it in its entirety. Later Dal asked me to clarify what I meant about men “forcibly assuming control of a woman’s hypergamous determining of his sexual suitability for her.”

I’m not clear on what you mean here, and fear that others will take this as a justification of rape. What do you mean by “forcibly”? Are you talking about Game?

To which my comment was, again, in its entirety:

Game, rape, guilt, shame, prearranged marriage, obligation, moral enforcement, really anything that removes or limits a woman’s hypergamous filtering and puts that control into the decision making process of men.

In the case of Rodger, although his killings don’t bear it out, his intent, at least as interpreted by a feminized MSM, was a presumed obligation on the part of women (and top shelf women no less) to recognize his self-perceived superior qualifications for their intimacy and reward him with sex, love, adoration, affection, etc.

Granted, the kid was a sperg with a list of very real psychological disorders, but the only thing a fem-centric society focuses on is the audacity he had in presuming he, and by association Any Man®, could assume control of a woman’s hypergamous filtering – in this case via an implied obligation.

The Two Sides of Hypergamy

Anyone who’s read the first part of my Preventative Medicine series understands the dual nature of feminine hypergamy. From a biological level to a social level, feminine hypergamy demands the optimization of two disparate elements: securing the best genetic (breeding) option a woman can attract, and the best long-term provisioning (security) option she can attract in a male. From biologically prompted mating behaviors to contemporary social entitlements, women seek a balance between breeding optimization and security optimization – preferably in the same man, but failing this, optimally in different men.

I’ve written about women’s security needs in various posts, but it’s important to understand that optimizing a woman’s best available options for hypergamy (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks) prompts a deep, evolved, psychological need for certainty. Feminine Hypergamy is defined by a profound, often life-long, uncertainty and doubt over the choices she makes in breeding and / or bonding with a given pool of men in her lifetime.

The Need for Certainty

Women’s sexual filtering, vetting, nagging, shit testing, as well as many other evolved habits are all subconsciously inspired by a need for hypergamic certainty.

In a pre-sexual revolution social order, a woman’s capacity to optimize her hypergamy (and pacify the uncertainty) had a variety of extrinsic limitations.

Some of these I listed in my comment to Dalrock; guilt, cultural stigma, shame, moral and religious conviction, obligations to family, arranged marriages, polygamy, and yes, rape, were all a means to limiting a woman’s decision making capacity to optimize her innate hypergamy.

Before I continue, let me state in no unclear terms, rape, in its most visceral definition, is bad. I don’t believe the general population of men need a lesson in yet more feminine shaming efforts to understand this simple idea. As most readers know, it’s generally my practice to describe things – not to prescribe things – and allow readers to make their own moral conclusions, but I’ll break form in this case.

Any given reader may see a positive or a negative argument for limiting feminine hypergamy via cultural or religious doctrines, but I am not now, nor will I ever, endorse forced sexual penetration on women (or men) as anything but a negative. However, in light of its undeniable limiting of feminine hypergamous choice, throughout human history, rape is the most direct way men have most decisively removed a woman’s hypergamic decision making capacity. To ignore this truth, or to be cowed by even the thought of considering it, is to deny the obvious.

In a post-sexual revolution social order, women’s control over their hypergamy is only limited by their capacity to attract the best prospective mate their sexuality, personality and physicality will afford them. Whether provided for by the state, personal independence or other means women in a post-sexual revolution era, to a larger degree than any other time in western history, have the security side of their hypergamic optimization virtually guaranteed.

Even with women for whom this security isn’t fully realized, the greater social undercurrent for the past 60 years has been one which presents women with a social responsibility to break away from provisional dependency on men, thus granting women unilateral control over their hypergamous decision making.

Whether this security-side assurance comes from legal institutions, abortion laws, paternity laws, the advent of no fault divorce, child custody and support distribution, or, the security guarantee comes in the form of social conventions which foster the expectation of men to be bound to a one-sided provisioning contract, the modern message is clear for women; Independence from the necessity of men’s provisioning largely reduces or eliminates the uncertainty of  long-term security.

Or in other words, unilateral control of a woman’s hypergamy means Beta Bucks now takes a backseat to Alpha Fucks.

The Old-Order

The provisioning and personal investment in character, masculine virtue and ambition that made the, pre-sexual revolution, old order man an attractive prospect for a woman’s security-side hypergamy no longer carry the necessary appeal they did to ensure he would attract a marriageable woman. For women, the old order of attraction was based primarily on the security side of her hypergamous need because this was the most uncertain aspect she could secure in a social climate where her hypergamous decision making was more constrained.

Not unsurprisingly, women’s prioritizing long-term security inspired men to accommodate it by cultivating provider characteristics in themselves in order to be attractive. This isn’t to say the same Alpha side arousal we see in women’s sexual prioritization today wasn’t important, or tingle generating. Rather, the old social order prioritized women’s security needs since the Alpha Fucks side of her hypergamy was buffered by women’s general dependence on a man’s long-term provisioning.

The problem now is that, since the sexual revolution, the majority of (Beta) men are still raised and conditioned in this old-order context, based on an outmoded social contract that they were taught to ego-invest themselves into in order to best effect their own sexual strategy.

Although it’s the easiest dismissal fem-centric society would have anyone believe, only the most ignorant and self-important of men would ever come to the conclusion that they were owed (in the most transactional sense) the sexual and intimate affections of a woman in exchange for his personal investment, resources, dedication and acts of kindness. Certainly not men raised and conditioned to defer to a woman’s honor and respect, by default, above his own.

However, due to the old order social conditioning that taught them that a man in the unquestioning service of a woman’s security-side hypergamy should be the pinnacle of attraction, their conflict comes not in being denied an owed reward, but rather that rewards of sex, love, adoration, affection, respect, etc. the old-order convinced them they can and should earn is observably being offered to men who embody the exact opposite of his old order conditioning.

Relational Equity vs. Alpha Fucks

Deti picked up on this conflict in the comments of last week’s post:

We as human beings need to eliminate the words “deserve” and “entitled” from our vocabularies. Women are not entitled to anything from men; just as men are not entitled to anything from women. This entire “male sexual entitlement” strawman that our opponents have erected is just bull, plain and simple. Men do not go around claiming “entitlement” to sex; only psychopaths and mental defectives do that.

For anyone unacquainted with the fallacy of Relational Equity, I’d suggest reading that post to get some familiarity. Relational Equity is the idea that the more a man invests himself into his relationship, all of the investment, emotional, physical, financial, familial, etc. equity he accrues for that dedication and commitment should be rationally appreciated by a woman and thus a buffer against the Alpha Fucks side of feminine hypergamy.

In essence this fallacy is the is rooted in the old order, security-side dependence of women’s hypergamy – the trust is that Beta Bucks will trump Alpha Fucks.

A man’s ego-investment into this fallacy is often the cause of his want to define Alpha in his own image, rather than remove his ego from the process and observe how women react and behave around men they actually have an Alpha arousal for. An example of this old order Beta disconnect is embodied in the person of Corey Worthington (a.k.a. the Alpha Buddah):

Guy’s like Corey infuriate men who have invested their self-worth in the accomplishments of what they think ought to be universally appreciated and rewarded. So when they’re confronted with a natural Alpha being undeservedly rewarded for brazenly acting out of accord with what they think the rules ought to be, they seethe with resentment. The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator. The conflict then comes from seeing his new definition of Alpha not being rewarded or even appreciated as well as a natural Alpha attitude and the cycle continues. Your respect (or anyone else’s) for an Alpha has nothing to do with whether or not he possess an Alpha mindset. 3 failed marriages and 100+ lays has nothing to do with his having or not having an Alpha mindset. There are many well respected betas who’ve never had a passing thought of infidelity, or may have 300 lays either with prostitutes or because they possess fame or stunning good looks and women come to him by matter of course.

I wrote this almost three years ago, but the parallels of this ‘Alpha in his own image’ dynamic that Eliot Rodger shared with men conditioned in the old order of earning or meriting women’s intimacy are undeniable. Despite Arthur Chu’s male-apologetic mewling, it’s not that men like this feel ‘entitled to or ‘owed‘ sex with their idealized women, but they do feel their investments in a relational equity, and what they’ve been conditioned to believe should qualify them for women’s attentions have been betrayed to men who gratify the Alpha Fucks side of women’s hypergamous natures.

Feminine-Primary Assortive Mating

 “When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”

― Sheryl Sandberg, Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead

Ironically the best spokeswoman to illustrate the dichotomy between both sides of women’s hypergamy should be Sheryl Sandberg – the voice and embodiment of several generations of women raised on the Feminine Imperative and unilaterally unrestrained hypergamy. So oblivious is Sandberg to her feminine-primary, solipsistic confirmation of hypergamy that it never occurs to her that men would be anything but accommodating of her life-plan advice for younger generations of women. It never occurs to her that a “man who values fairness” would ever reject her (much less despise her) for the duplicity that women’s dualistic sexual strategy disenfranchises men of.

So you see, it’s not a red pill awakening that predisposes men to believing they’re ‘owed’, ‘entitled to’ or ‘deserving’ of sex, love, adoration, affection or anything else from women – it’s the generations of women like Sandberg who unabashedly exploit the old order conditioning of Beta Bucks men, while expecting them to dutifully accept their open or discrete cuckoldry with Alpha Fucks men – and then tell them that “nothing’s sexier” than their complacency in it with a wriggle of their nose.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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LiveFearless
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In other words, it’s easier to be like every other man than to learn about genuine desire. Rollo uses brevity and clarity in its explanation here: http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/25/the-desire-dynamic/

His book elaborates further. Any male that’s not read the book “The Rational Male” by Rollo Tomassi lives in a state of self hatred even if he’s unaware of it.

bbb
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@ Zorro

My favorite line from a sit com was Raymond (Everybody Loves Raymond) saying to his wife, “That’s OK honey, no sex tonight. You deserve it”. Speaks volumes.

The anti-men rants passing for humor in MSM and advertising makes me puke – the new daddies fumbling around with diapers being bailed out by random women etc.. Along with squashing spiders, aren’t men actually better suited for cleaning up shit?

Zorro
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@livefearless

Hard truths and rational thought is opposed post-sexual revolution. No wonder why we are outcasts. Adds to the alpha vibe so can’t complain too much!

jf12
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If she is aware that you are running Soft Dread, that could very easily be viewed as negotiatory in a way that Hard Dread ultimatums are not.

jf12
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Since the MMSL book came out only three years ago, all of the redpill principles have been repealed or backpedaled or extremely curtailed. To me that indicates the actual success probability of alpha-ing up to an already existing old wife is extremely low. Extremely low.

Go Figure
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One of the best articles on this blog in my opinion. Every man should read this when growing up. I’m 24 and got one chick which I confessed my love to when I was 16. Have been LJBFed of course. Now she’s 23 and is a single mommy. For two years she ocasionally contacts me to check if I’m still “in love”. I reply nicely but we never met for 2 years or so ( maybe you heard about the “chinese yes”). I would fuck her though. But an LTR is not an option anymore since she’s got a kid… Read more »

Steve H
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Che – no matter how successful you are, the sex will never be better or more frequent than it was at the beginning of the relationship. As an unmarried guy, for whom being in a committed LTR to an early-20s girlfriend is a sacrifice, this is where I personally have to ask: “And you chose to get married why exactly?” Since sex is so important to us, a choice for marriage in light of this particular red pill belief seems to me a choice to be the victim. (I can honestly say that sex with my gf has not gotten… Read more »

jf12
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Re: more about actual efficacy of Soft Dread. Right after Game went semi-mainstream, there have been a couple of fads in the past decade, including popular psychology and women’s advice columns and talking heads, about many (repeat, many) married women hoping their newly improved husbands would just go ahead and have an affair, so that he would leave her alone more and so that she wouldn’t feel quite as guilty for not womanning up.

Zorro
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I have no problem with women trying to empower themselves. My future wife will certainly be able to provide for herself. I want two solid household incomes, there is no reason not too. Feminist just have the complete wrong idea about going about it. They attack men, try to amplify biological flaws that we cannot subconsciously control, just as much as we cannot control theirs. Feminist need to realize there is a different between the sexes no matter what anybody says or does. Feminist need to embrace the fact that they are indeed women and there is nothing wrong about… Read more »

Zorro
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@gofigure

They always come back!

Jeremy
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@Go Figure I’m 24 and got one chick which I confessed my love to when I was 16. Have been LJBFed of course. Now she’s 23 and is a single mommy. For two years she ocasionally contacts me to check if I’m still “in love”. I reply nicely but we never met for 2 years or so ( maybe you heard about the “chinese yes”). I would fuck her though. But an LTR is not an option anymore since she’s got a kid of 2 years now I actually have a similar situation, though the ages are different, and she… Read more »

SGT Ted
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“Changing to an alpha mindset within a marriage where the beta “script” has been written, doesn’t really work IMHO.” This is my direct experience. I was my wife’s “Alpha” through most of our marriage; lots of crazy fun sex, always hot for me, wearing no panties when we went out and wanting me to feel her up in public under the table or bar and she had been raised in a strict religious family. It was a great marriage. So Hawt. The best and most sex of my life was in that marriage. Until I went to war and came… Read more »

Zorro
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@sgtted

Good shit man! Happy for you.

James Machiavelli
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There is a reason males have evolved with various adaptations in regards to sexual selection. When all else fails they are left with taking it by force. Biological imperative outweighs all moral or social construction.

Zorro
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@james mach

Not sure if I agree with that. Then the world would be total chaios. Everyone stealing, killing, raping everyone. That really doesn’t happen ratio wise to total world population.

Jeremy
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@Zorro,

Worst-case human scenario. All Human women begin refusing sex. Call it a zombie-virus or somesuch plague that chemically wipes out female libido. What happens then? Two choices…

1) Humanity dies out
2) Lots of raping going on.

Since males are equipped to force that scenario, humanity would not die out. Sorry ladies.

Jeremy
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I should have added, consider the converse situation. The converse would be if male libido was suddenly destroyed. Women are ill-equipped to force men into sex, and in fact the male sex organs may not even function properly at all without male libido. My conclusion would be that if male libido were similarly destroyed with a virus, humanity would absolutely die off.

Martel
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@ fred: “Big disagree with Martel and jf12. Insisting that politics inform all sphere discussions is absolutely the same thing as ‘the personal is political.'” Neither jf12 (that I’ve ever seen) nor I have ever “insist[ed] that politics inform ALL sphere discussions” or even come close. There’s plenty to talk about that has either just a tangential relation to politics, or perhaps none at all. My contention is with the notion that by refusing to discuss it AT ALL that we’re somehow keeping our ideas more pure (as opposed to merely stifling their impact). Rollo provides plenty of great insights… Read more »

Zorro
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@ Jeremy

That be nuts! Would have to be in terms of repopulation though.

But unfortunately, in our society today, feminist would believe that would be the greatest thing to ever happen to the world! One step closer to becoming a man, with even more power having no sexual urges.

Social psych is too strong. Laws too powerful, and beta herds too massive.

As is money, take away sexual desire, the need for money will remain the same. Prostitutes will be making more money than Brady or Peyton combined in an hour session!

Steve H
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Martel is right.

You cite Carlson and Maddow. OK.

Present both women with the same red pill barbs:

Gretchen Carlson might be taken aback and make some half-hearted ‘misogyny’ comment while shaking her head in disagreement.

Rachel Maddow would lead the charge to charge you with a hate crime and have you thrown behind bars.

Feminism is progressivism is feminism is the DNC platform is Feminism.

The Burninator
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@Steve H Yes. You gave your promise of fidelity for life. Breaking that promise in lieu of expressly breached contractually-assented stipulations on her part would be unethical. Marriage is by its very essence a command to “go forth and multiply”. The sex is understood as being part of the bargain (how can one multiply without banging like bunnies?). By her withholding sex she is breaching the contract outright, all the while claiming full power and dominion over his sexuality to the point of denying him its expression. When my cable company doesn’t provide the channels I’ve paid to view to… Read more »

SGT Ted
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Its not so much that RP/BP ideas are political in and of themselves, even though the political ramifications can be extrapolated from the application of those ideas onto the current culture.

It is that there is an entire political class and ideology that relies and depends entirely on RP/BP and FI ideas being suppressed or depicted as “extremist” thought in order to remain operative. They do the exact same “othering” to any ideological opponent of theirs as well. RP/BP aficionados are just the more recent targets of that effort to maintain conformity and dominance.

Retrenched
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A heavy fem-centric bias in politics is inevitable in a system in which women outnumber and outvote men, and are encouraged to vote selfishly along gender lines.

[Not that men don’t vote selfishly at times — obviously they do — but they do so along economic and racial lines, not along gender lines. For example, rich men vote Republican for lower taxes while black men vote Democratic for the racial preferences and such.]

M3
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Just going to leave this here too:
http://www.yourtango.com/experts/ms-kristina-marchant/what-do-if-he-wont-have-sex-you/page/3

This guys comment is almost a mirror of what i deal with (my girlfirends drive is 3x higher than mine)
http://www.yourtango.com/experts/ms-kristina-marchant/what-do-if-he-wont-have-sex-you/page/3#comment-1433362819

SGT Ted
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One of the other RP/BL ideas that really got me thinking about how it was in the past as compared to today is the “LJBF” trope. I am 51 years old. In my day, when you were courting a woman, and she said that to you, it was completely understood by both parties that there was no chance of a relationship whatsoever and that the two of you were *not* going to be friends whatsoever. It was understood that it was her nice way of saying “nope” you don’t measure up, time to part ways”. The only people that continued… Read more »

M3
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Ill just leave this right here.

http://youtu.be/mTYcqSrJtYE

Retrenched
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@ M3

HAHAHA good one!

Martel
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Thanks, Steve. Another example to demonstrate my point. Let’s say Rollo decided to do a speech at the University of Florida. There would be threats and demands issued to the university to have him banned. The university would have to calculate security considerations into deciding whether or not he could come. The campus would be blanketed with flyers hoping to call the university to account for allowing a “rape apologist” (per Giggles’ hit piece) to speak on campus. Sit-ins, boycotts, bomb threats, you name it. If the speech goes forward, anyone who wants to hear it would have to brave… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
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Wait what?! Lenn Bruce is a dead junkie? Like was exhaustively detailed in the book “Ladies and Gentlemen, Lenny Bruce!” (See: what IS).

So whether he was right doesn’t matter because dead junkies don’t talk??

Say it ain’t so!! (See: what SHOULD BE)

Martel
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@ Fred: Bruce’s death indicates he didn’t exactly have a firm grasp on how to properly balance what should be with what is.

And per his quote, the correct response to somebody saying “you should give up morphine” would have been “FUCK ‘should'”! There is no ‘should!'”

So although his death doesn’t quite prove he didn’t know what the hell he was talking about, it certainly counts as evidence.

Steve H
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I voted for Democrat Stephen Lynch over pussy mega-mangina Ed Markey about 6 months ago. Last week, for some reason which escapes me at the moment, Maddow took a couple minutes on one of her shows to trash Lynch as ‘a conservative democrat’. I don’t like Lynch’s ties to big labor and unions, but he’d have been way better than Markey. Even intra-democratic party, we see the new (feminist) party leaders ostracizing elected democrats who don’t always vote against men’s interests. Points about men’s advocates – presuming for the sake of argument that they were ‘registered democrats’ – encountering violent… Read more »

Steve H
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Rollo – The liberal set might toss out their token resistance, but you’d see the real outrage from conservative women and their male sympathizers. With respect, I wholeheartedly disagree with this assumption. I have no idea why you presume this would happen. Conservative Christian women who have remained married through trials and tribulations loathe those ‘fake Christian’ women who frivorce because they aren’t haaaaapy. (*If* you’re suggesting that Osteen’s church in fact has ‘conservative women’, that is.) On those rare occasions where Christian men put their foot down, those conservative women listen. I contend that there is a behavioral, real-world… Read more »

Martel
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@ Rollo: Also a good illustration. However, there are a couple of ways in which the parallel breaks down. First, there are conservatives and proggies in both locations (there are liberal Christians), and it would be the more left-leaning portions of both communities that would be leading the lynch mobs. But the more salient point is that although feminism has infiltrated conservative circles, it’s downright intrinsic to progressivism. Feminism is like a cancer that’s attached itself to the right, but leftism is that cancer itself. For example, although zillions of Christians have fallen for feminism, feminism is not intrinsic to… Read more »

Che
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Several points… @Deti… Sex is an important tangible benefit that you get from marriage, but it’s not the only one. A stable two-parent family for your children is equally important. A child’s proximity to a good father and mother is about as important a thing as there is. There is a selfless aspect to all of this that must be considered when children are in the picture… Women count on this from “providers”, and to be honest, I think it would be hugely dishonorable and even disgraceful not to take care of a child that I had a hand in… Read more »

jf12
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@Che “soft dread only works up to a point” I agree, and it’s a nearby point, i.e. Soft Dread tends to not produce enough changes in the woman like one might think it “should”. “If there was ever an implicit green light to go fuck around, it sure seems like she’s giving it to me.” I mentioned the occasional slew of articles from the woman-sphere, marital advice columns etc, like one woman writing an article half-pretending that she wished her husband would take a mistress, and all the women commenters chiming in to agree. It seems like women CAN recognize… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
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To show how apt the parralel between Rollo giving a speech at U. of Phoenix vs. Dalrock giving a speech to Joel Osteen’s church, I present to you the perfect storm: the failed attempt by Special Snowflake College Freshmen to ban/shame LGBT activist Dan Savage at the University of Chicago last week: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/06/07/about-that-hate-crime-i-committed-at-university-of-chicago The point is not you should like Dan Savage (or hate him). My points are: 1) He is the one playing the role of the conservative! 2) He shows how both Dalrock and Rollo would survive their slaggings and attempted shamings by his taking a page from… Read more »

bbb
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@Che

Sounds like your situation is beyond soft dread. What Deti said at 10:10. Good luck brother……

Martel
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@ Fred: As much as I dislike Savage, you’re entirely correct in that the best approach is to not take any of their crap. Shove as much crap back into their faces as necessary. I’m still not sure if we can win the whole fight or not, but we sure as hell can win some of the battles. Unfortunately, the SHUTUPICANTHEARYOUMISOGYNIST crowd has won on numerous other occasions. Moreover, this crown is far more likely to be composed of folks who identify themselves as progressive, and those who don’t self-identify as progressives adhere to progressive beliefs nonetheless. So I respectfully… Read more »

scratche2013
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@Zorro and @LiveFearless That is exactly why marriage in the modern age is a really dumb idea; no one can be so alpha she doesn’t still want to cheat. You are competing against men she will never meet – in her mind George Clooney is part of the market place and she measures her man against that crazy standard. Never marry, never commit to one woman, don’t be afraid to raise kids outside the confines of marriage – your children will respect you more as the guy who didn’t settle for mom than they would as the guy mom doesn’t… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Che But soft dread only works up to a point… Since I travel for work often, the wife often speculates about the “girlfriends” that I have on the side and has told me that if I ever do screw around, she just doesn’t want to know about it. If there was ever an implicit green light to go fuck around, it sure seems like she’s giving it to me. It’s almost as if SHE wants an unspoken agreement: Go fuck around if you must, just keep the funds flowing to me and the kids. sigh….and the guys I work with… Read more »

Jeremy
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It’s strange though, because I see some women “marrying down”, and they still feel like they are “winning”.

It’s hard not to regard such women, who have worthwhile careers, and are clearly marrying someone with less job security, as if they are first-time-slave owners who were just handed the keys to their very own personal wage slave.

scratche2013
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@Jeremy “It’s strange though, because I see some women “marrying down”, and they still feel like they are “winning”. It’s hard not to regard such women, who have worthwhile careers, and are clearly marrying someone with less job security, as if they are first-time-slave owners who were just handed the keys to their very own personal wage slave.” This is the way I see most “relationships” around me. The male is an accessory, just a status symbol that tells other women “I have a man”. They obviously are not physically attracted to these men and mostly use them to achieve… Read more »

Fred Flange, S.J.
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Martel: very short answer so as not to derail the thread here. I’ll just say in my personal interactions in certain political spheres attempts were made to shame/silence me simply for taking issue, using much the same victimized tone as Dan Savage’s “It.” I used to be a sucker for that crap when in college and the lefties did it. Point is not that I was scared or silenced; but it is the same tactic, only now it irritates; it does not frighten. Beyond that, I will attempt a more detailed answer as a comment on your blog when I… Read more »

Jeremy
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@ Fred & Martel’s conversation… What you guys are describing is organizational defeat. It’s a basic truth of human nature that when a broad human movement begins organizing, it signals the start of that own movement’s defeat. Humans are pretty good at making decisions for themselves as individuals, but if you get us into committees/meetings look out because there’s no end of the shit we can crank out. On a long enough timeline, all organized efforts at human political movement end up with the inmates running the asylum. I’ve found myself able to agree with elements of just about every… Read more »

SGT Ted
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‘male is an accessory, just a status symbol that tells other women “I have a man”. ‘

Perusing the Craigslist Women Seeking Men Personals will confirm this, as well as all the other Hypergamy and FI theories. Most of the ones are fat women with kids looking for Beta Bucks and to be entertained by a man. The entitlement attitude consistently jumps out.

Such a fascinating bit of Sociology Theater in reading those ads.

SGT Ted
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SGT Ted
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“I especially detest what the MHRA is doing, they’re taking a valid set of complaints, and instead of attempting to alter the self and effect change in thousands of tiny cuts, they are attempting to wield the sledgehammer of political change.” Well, it needs to be changed at the legal end of it and the only way to change it that way is through the political and legal institutions. The beauty of it is that the tools being used for the change are the very same civil rights laws that were written to enable and undergird the Feminist supremacy movement… Read more »

Mark Minter
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This will be sort of a long comment. It is a variation of one I had intended to leave last summer before I became persona non gratis. Yes, there is a new order in the sexual schedule of women. But there is also a new order in men’s appreciation and understanding of women in dispelling the notion of the Feminine Mystique. Inevitably women act in an irrational manner, all with the intent of making “mating” difficult for men in order to raise the cost of “mating” to men and to enhance the status of women in the course of the… Read more »

Will
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Will
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@rollo you know damn well about how girls work and the sexual market and I thank you for that–you’ve probably helped a good amount of guys on here.

“Rich people vote republican because of lower taxes”

That statement in itself tells me that you probably don’t much about politics and how the economy works which surprised me because it’s not far from the concepts you preach…

People vote conservatively b/c they understand how a free market markets and how capitalism is designed. Not because their rich.

Bill gates is a democrat

Will
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Will
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*how a free market works

Will
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Will
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* they’re , I don’t proofread

jf12
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@M3, fwiw, I consider the following two sentences to contradict each other.
1. She’s very sexual.
2. I have to wear myself out to get her off.

Becuase my experiences tend to the second sentence, I claim the right to deny the first sentence whenever the second sentence is true. It’s *always* much better when she’s quick and easy.

Retrenched
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Retrenched
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Hell, the FUCKING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED FUCKING STATES OF AMERICA has to apologize and grovel for forgiveness when he calls a woman pretty and feminists take offense.

Tell me again about how men have all the power, and women are so oppressed and downtrodden…

BlackPoisonSoul
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Interesting topic, interesting undertow of thoughts revealed in the comments. To recap, simplified: Woman: Men are not entitled to sex. No matter what. Man: Women are not entitled to chivalry. No matter what. Where chivalry is defined as: giving any form of attention or help to a woman. This can range from a simple pleasantry (“hello” and/or smiling to her), to changing a tyre, all the way through to commitment and marriage. I wonder how many women are feeling the cold emptiness as they are deserted in droves and left to fend for themselves in this harsh and unyielding world,… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
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I should clarify further: blue-pill thinking in my view looks to be much like a man still believing that any woman is automatically deserving of chivalry. When even women have taken it upon themselves to state that they simply want to gift their sexuality to men who turn them on and sell their sexuality (or potential promise of sexuality) for said chivalry to men who do not turn them on. Definition of a bad deal for a man who does not turn woman on. When he wakes up to the scam then he stops selling himself cheaply and does something… Read more »

Slothrop
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I will just say this. In modern society everyone makes their own rules. Committed relationships are *not* the default. Committed relationships only come about because both parties explicitly agreed to it. (*Explicitly*, not implicitly through a paper legal marriage contract & assoc. rituals.) I’m saying this because I see a lot of very beta complaining on this issue. Television should have told her. The church should have told her. Her friends should have told her. The courts should punish her. No. YOU should have told her. In my college days I found myself in a bad relationship and since then… Read more »

LiveFearless
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@scratche2013
You are competing against men she will never meet – in her mind George Clooney is part of the market place and she measures her man against that crazy standard.

Add Reggie Bush, Chris Hemsworth, Michael Ealy, Cristiano Ronaldo, Bradley Cooper and a thousand others I’ve interviewed. They all (wisely) have publicists, PR professionals etc to make sure that certain standards are fed in order to create culture.

When those standards become the conversation, they seem real, so the expectations become normal. This is why certain kinds of self improvement matter more now than ever before.

Eliezer Ben-Yehuda
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Eliezer Ben-Yehuda
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>> Is racism and homophobia okay with you guys? Really?

If you want a Marine Corps that can kick doors down….. then you have to live with a few deaths-from-robust-training each year.

I welcome the presence of Zombi, IrishSavant, &etc – if that’s what it takes to keep the BluePill hivemind away from this site

Robert What?
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Robert What?
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Mein gott! Most beta guys (myself included up til a couple of years ago) are so well conditioned that we can be married, work 12 hour days, put a roof over their heads and food on the table allowing the wife to not work (or work part time) to pursue her “dreams”, while our dreams wither and die. And STILL we don’t think we are owed sex – or owed anything for that matter.

TheMonkeyKing
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TheMonkeyKing
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There’s a documentary on British Channel4 about ‘The Virgin Killer’ starting in about half an hour…

Will post the catch-up link tomorrow for those that can’t access.

scratche2013
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@LiveFearless I hear you, the standards have been artificially raised through media. It is what it is but I still would never recommend trying to keep any one woman no matter how “alpha” you make yourself; unless you can be all those guys you listed at once, your still second rate in a woman’s subconscious mind. It isn’t anyone’s fault, people were not biologically designed to handle the insane amount of media we are exposed to. I have read just about all of Rollo’s work and I agree with practically all of it – the conclusion I have come to… Read more »

Penis Diderot
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I would be absolutely fascinated to hear Rollo’s comments on Benjamin Franklin’s advice to a young man on choosing a mistress (I took this to simply mean lover, not an illicit affair partner) as it pertains to SMV, hypergamy, etc. Franklin, always astute, seemed to have insight rarely paralleled on many a topic: From Franklin’s letter to his young male confidant (on choosing a mistress): ” But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking a Commerce with the Sex inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice, that in all your Amours you should prefer old Women… Read more »

water cannon boy
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water cannon boy
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Regarding #5-seems nowadays what’s first to go starts below the neck. Ben did make some astute observations. But they are dated. Back them when the women became less handsome, they very well may focused on being good. But today you get things like a woman is in her sexual prime late in life, men are shallow, women age like wine, men are intimidated by various types of whatever type of woman that the woman regards herself as, who is making the statement at the time. Things change. Today Ben might say if you’re going to get a mistress, get a… Read more »

scratche2013
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Older women don’t look as good but Franklin is right in some regards; there is something about being with a younger man that makes them more grateful and less of a headache for the man.

water cannon boy
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water cannon boy
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That’s called an ego boost. Like a drug, that first hit feels awesome. Get used to it though, and it takes more to get the same high. And then the junkie gets obstinate, and starts demanding that you provide their next fix.

Pre-Retiree
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“So oblivious is Sandberg to her feminine-primary, solipsistic confirmation of hypergamy that it never occurs to her that men would be anything but accommodating of her life-plan advice for younger generations of women. It never occurs to her that a “man who values fairness” would ever reject her (much less despise her) for the duplicity that women’s dualistic sexual strategy disenfranchises men of.”

I wouldn’t worry too much about Sandy and her ilk. They end up with men who used similar strategies as they did.

Pre-Retiree
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Steve H June 13th, 2014 at 12:20 pm Che – no matter how successful you are, the sex will never be better or more frequent than it was at the beginning of the relationship. As an unmarried guy, for whom being in a committed LTR to an early-20s girlfriend is a sacrifice, this is where I personally have to ask: “And you chose to get married why exactly?” Since sex is so important to us, a choice for marriage in light of this particular red pill belief seems to me a choice to be the victim. (I can honestly say… Read more »

SGT Ted
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Bear in mind that those “older women” Ben was referring to were most likely in their late 20s and 30s, as that was considered “spinster age” back then.

HawkandRock
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“If you could sum up the essence of blue pill social programming in three words, it would be… ‘Compliance is sexy.’ Serve the feminine imperative, facilitate women’s sexual utopia, allow women to do whatever they want without judgment or consequence, and they will appreciate it and reward you.” Exactly. Well put. The goal of feminism is singular — optimization of hypergamy. Every single plank in the feminist platform without exception is designed to do exactly this. Any efforts to control this hypergamous instinct in any way (including any efforts to expose it and tell the truth about it) will be… Read more »

Sean
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Sean
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Hi Rollo. Love your writing. I’ve been a lifelong beta. Good looks, but a “nice guy”. I’m an Actor/VO artist by profession, and I bartend to make ends meet..saw something the other night that cemented this “Alpha/Beta” dichotomy for me. I’d been training a new(female) bartender. Hot girl. Anyway, she’d been basically nice to me until the other night, when we had a particular bartender/musician work with us that she’d never met. I’d been cool, respectful of her and all that. He immediately started his alpha game: playing with her, borderline harassment,, basically being a complete fucking dick. Sh fucking… Read more »

Softek
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Softek
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Right out of the park with this one. Understanding that Relational Equity is in fact a myth has been a huge part of my inner recovery and healing. I’m still playing friends with a girl I’ve known for a very long time. I’ve read over the LJBF posts over and over again but I keep doing it. She was interested in me years ago but I was too insecure to do anything about it, and now I’m clinging to the hope that if I game her enough she’ll leave her boyfriend for me. It’s been months and months and months… Read more »

jf12
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@SGT Ted, no, by older women Franklin explicitly stated he meant wrinkled and with no risk of pregnancy. Keep in mind he was advising the man to marry a younger woman, and an affair was an older woman was advised as a lesser alternative.

There is no indication he ever meant the letter as anything more than a joke, and it may have been only circulated among his parlor room social circle, primarily married women.

jf12
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@Softek re: “As real as it feels that this girl is “the one,” I’ve felt the same thing enough times to know that if it isn’t her, it’ll be another girl.”

This is a key understanding; it’s not about her, it’s about you. You have realized you are capable of hyperfocusing on a woman. You have this power, but it is also a weakness.

New Yorker
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New Yorker
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Softek, it looks like you are making tremendous progress. You have hit the nail on the head and will eventually win this fight. Keep charging.

agent p
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agent p
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as always good stuff here. A few observations from my part of the world responding to some different ideas in the thread. Re: MMSL becoming diffuse. Yes I agree. full respect to Athol, MMSL was my entry point into the red pill and it arguably saved my marriage. Things always have room for improvement, but overall it’s been a 180 degree shift. That having been said, I find MMSL has been corrupted by the commercial imperative for Athol. It was inevitable, it was so time consuming he had to start commercializing it or someone else would. As soon as that… Read more »

Softek
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@ New Yorker: Thank you for the encouragement. I appreciate it.

@ jf12: I’m unclear on what you meant. What is the weakness — did you mean the hyperfocusing on one woman itself, or the recognizing that I’m hyperfocusing?

Seraph
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You know, having thought about this post and the “larger issue” of owed sex that has sprung up, it occurs to me how much blatant hypocrisy is going on here. It’s been touched upon already, but I’d like to expand it. This oddly touches on the idea of politics which has recently been brought up here. While I understand Rollo’s reluctance to get into those issues and distract from the Red Pill core issues, I think there is no way to completely avoid them. They converge over the idea of entitlement and who gets to claim it for what… Feminists… Read more »

jf12
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@Softek, often I’m unclear what I mean too. I mean, I *mean* something, but it’s big and slippery. But it’s fun trying. You could envision me valiantly jello wrestling with a big gal, if you want.

Your superpower is your weakness, and also women’s weakness. I’ve some reason to believe that what a woman wants most is an alpha who will be infatuated with her. If you can hold your superpower in check and alpha up, then you can leverage your potential for infatuation to get a better woman maybe. But keeping it under control can be difficult, I know!

AnonS
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Maybe the term “time-rape” should enter public thought.

A girl walks up to a police officer and asks for help,

“Do you think you’re entitled to my help just because you gave me money and I made a vow? You think you can treat me like a piece of property and time-rape me?”

scratche2013
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@Sean It is funny, for me the whole “red pill” hit me all at once after a fairly insignificant incident. There had been so many other times that I got used and abused by girls when I was growing up and yet all it took was one minor display of truth from a woman for it all to finally sink in. I said something “beta” and I saw the look of disgust go across her face in a quick flash (it was pretty fucking cringe-worthy to be honest). This was a “nice” girl and I think that moment was when… Read more »

LiveFearless
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@agent p . If you can demonstrate to them that what they are doing is against their sales interests, you will eventually get their attention and in turn affect the manufacture of culture in the form of advertising

“They” are not concerned about sales to male consumers .

Pre-Retiree
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Pre-Retiree
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“In the course of things he has been sanitizing much of the content of his work I think to make it more palletable to the fairer sex.” You mean men? Because women luuuuuuuurrrrrrrrvvvvvveeee erotica. Rollo, I can see why people walked away from what you wrote thinking it was rape apologia. To me it originally came across as if you object to the very idea of women being sovereign individuals with a right to their own personal space and to be unmolested and safe therein. Don’t forget that in arranged marriage the groom doesn’t have any more veto power than… Read more »

Kristophr
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And women are not owed attention or money. It all works out if you are not a doormat.

TheMonkeyKing
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http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-virgin-killer/4od#3714313 As promised, here is the link to catch-up on the ‘Virgin Killer’ doc. I didn’t watch the whole thing, but most of the reporting was fairly matter of fact. As the elder statesman psych dude in the programme says, if it hadn’t been women and his involuntary celibacy that tipped Roger over the edge, it would have been something else. I really don’t think lack of women/sex was the major causative factor. He talks of that situation in a very lofty, deluded and cartoonish manner (inclusive of evil overlord cackle), like you can tell he doesn’t really believe hi… Read more »

Steve H
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Steve H
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@Pre-Retiree – I do find it difficult but not ‘detestable’. It’s a fair question but it’s ultimately a gift to her that can be withdrawn at anytime with no legal or domestic ugliness required (unlike a marriage). She gives me a lot as well so there’s a reciprocity that works for both of us. As for your desire to suggest an open marriage, I say go for it. In my view that’s the ethical way to go about it. No deceit involved, no sneaking around necessary.

Gunter Brus
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I don’t know if I agree with your analysis. I think what this really boils down to is simply the fact that if men are saddled with the responsibility of initiating relationships and women primarily screen mates, then it’s men on the outs, facing rejection, and constantly scrambling to appeal to females. Why else are any of us reading these blogs if not because we’re trying to figure out how to fulfill this role that women have imposed on us. So what this means simply is that the guy gets rejected, he is actively doing something that is difficult and… Read more »

Steve H
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Steve H
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“The frustrated male who seems as if he grows hostile after being rejected or appears to refuse to take no for an answer is behaving the way anyone, no matter what their sex, would behave when put in such an absurd, and for many men, entirely desperate situation.”

If you ever want to see the embodiment of ‘creepy’ taken to an extreme – witness any attractive women, even a married attractive woman attempting to cheat, respond to being rebuffed by the man she’s trying to seduce.

Softek
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@ jf12 If you mean my ability to cope with being alone and persevere despite having no sex life and being isolated most of the time, I’d agree that superpower is a weakness. The hardest part is admitting that I want sex in my life while it isn’t here yet. I don’t want to go MGTOW by any stretch of the imagination, but I’m doing it on autopilot because “this is never going to happen” is the subconscious program running in my mind. Adapting to living a sexless life. It’s sink or swim, but I feel like my only option… Read more »

Ergo Slugg
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Your last point (on Ms. Sandberg’s advice) is stunningly perceptive and has been overlooked by the media. It should be read by every thinking adult in the U.S. What horrible advice to young women: “Whore around all you want, and then settle for some provider.” Wouldn’t she be horrified by the equivalent advice for a young man, perhaps: “Deceive, seduce, abandon and betray all the attractive women that you desire when you’re young, then when you’re old, burnt out and don’t care about sex, find a less attractive one to settle for to take care of you in exchange for… Read more »

jf12
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jf12
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Shorter: Prince Charming is not owed a Sleeping Beauty, but Sleeping Beauty is owed a Prince Charming.

Badpainter
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Badpainter
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Softek, As someone whose walked your path and who is still on it in many ways I am going to offer advice, perhaps not to follow but to think about. Let me tell you the story of my last oneitis. This is something that crystallized for me as a result of my discussion with Glenn and NewYorker in the previous post’s comments. The Story: It was love at first sight. It was hopelessly blue pill. And I knew how it was going to end up: badly. Not needing the trama of rejection, nor the distraction I decided to instead of… Read more »

jf12
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jf12
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“Fail boldly”!

How about this, to say to your oneitis, after invading her space and making contact: “There’s something about you I don’t like.”

Badpainter
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Jf12,

You joke, but that actually strikes me as good opening depending upon how one follows through.

jf12
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jf12
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@BP, not entirely a joke. I’m letting my natural Game shine, I can imagine this going well. I’m assuming it was going like you indicated, with some history, too prolonged by now, of mutually acknowledged interest (“her staring at me” etc.): (You, kinda growly but intimately, not for public consumption) “There’s something about you I don’t like.” (pregnant pause, not looking at her. Good time to knock back the dregs of a drink and look off into the distance somewhat glumly.) (Her, brightly as if a joke, revealing that she fears it’s not.) “What? What is it? You’ve got to… Read more »

Pre-Retiree
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I read Sandberg’s piece as not advising women to whore around and find a provider later. Remember now that she wrote an entire book “Lean In” telling women to lean more into the work world, thus making more money and providing more for themselves (and later families), but rather to not be so caught up on the youthful quests of looks and charm in a lifelong mate, but to find someone who shares your interests and values. Looks and charm are the first things teens and early 20 somethings look for in the opposite sex. As we age and think… Read more »

Ellesar
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Ellesar
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You say rape is ‘bad’ (not wrong, not even ‘very’ bad!) but that it is the most effective way of ensuring that a woman cannot ensure their ‘entitlement’ to ‘hypergamy’. So actually it is a very useful tool in the box?

You might as well admit it as all your followers will lap it all up anyway (especially if you obfuscate a bit with some unnecessarily intellectualised language), and everyone else knows already that you are a misogynist with more than a screw loose.

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