Alpha

The Alpha Buddah, Corey Worthington.

What I’m about to type here is not going to make me any new friends. I know because any discussion of what constitutes Alpha characteristics in a Man always becomes clouded by the self-perceptions of how well we think we align with them. As I’ve covered in prior postings, the ‘community’, the ‘manosphere’, the new understanding of gender relations that’s picked up momentum for the last 12 years has always generated it’s own terminologies for more abstract concepts. The danger in this is that these terms lack real, universal definition. For purposes of illustrating a concept these terms are usually serviceable – we have a general understanding of what makes for a ‘Beta’ or a Herb, or a man who falls into a ‘provider’ mentality. Even ‘Alpha’ in a specific context is useful as an illustrative tool, when the subject isn’t directly about ‘Alpha-ness’. It’s when we try to universally define what constitutes Alpha that the sparks start to fly. So before you continue on reading further, think about what you believe makes a guy Alpha. Got it in your head now? Good, now put all of that aside, purge that from your head, and read the next few paragraphs from the perspective that you don’t know anything about Alpha.

I was first introduced to the Alpha Buddah courtesy of Roissy and this post “Umm, sorry?” You can go ahead and read this from the Chateau’s perspective, and I think the analysis is pretty good. I call Corey the Alpha Buddah not in the hopes that men will aspire to his almost Zen like ‘being’ in Alpha, but rather to provide an example of Alpha in it’s most pure form. He literally IS Alpha, unclouded by pretense, afterthought, or conscious awareness of any influence that could have a hope of prompting introspection about his state.

Corey Worthington is a piss poor example of a human being, but he’s a textbook example of Alpha. I could use a lot of adjectives to describe this kid, but “beta” wouldn’t be one of them. What’s funny, and a bit ironic, is this kid has probably never come across Mystery Method or “the community” or even heard of ‘peacocking’ and he gets naturally what millions of guys pay small fortunes at PUA seminars to acquire over the course of a lifetime. He’s a selfish little prick, but what makes him insulting to ‘normal’ men is his having the natural, internalized Alpha bravado so many AFCs wish they had. If you could bottle and sell this Alpha essence, you’d be rich beyond imagine.

Right about now all of those self-affirming preconceptions you had about Alpha-ness (that I told you to stow away before reading this) are probably yelling to be let out of the mental box you put them in. “,..but, but Rollo, how can you possibly think this arrogant douchebag kid could ever be an example of anything remotely Alpha?!” You’ll be pleased to know I fully empathize your outrage. You work hard to be a “better man”, you put in the self analysis, you paid your dues coming to terms with unplugging and reinventing yourself. You’re a success, Corey is fuck-up. Corey’s not a better Man than you are, however, he understands Alpha better than you do.

Alpha is mindset, not a demographic.

Alpha is as Alpha does, it isn’t what we say it is. There are noble Alphas and there are scoundrel Alphas, the difference is all in how they apply themselves. There’s a tendency to approach every “Alpha” argument from what a guy thinks is righteousness; ergo, his personal definition of Alpha is what appeals best to his sense of virtue. He earned his Alpha cred, played by the rules, and by God people (women) should respect that. However, the sad truth is that prisons are full of Alpha males who simply channeled their drive toward destructive and anti-social endeavors. There are plenty of examples of indifferent Asshole Alphas who you wouldn’t say are upstanding moral leaders at all, yet women will literally kill each other (or themselves) in order to bang them because they exude a natural Alpha-ness. Just as Corey does here. There are Alpha drug dealing gang leaders, and there are Alpha husbands, fathers and leaders of industry. It’s all in the application. Genghis Khan was Alpha as fuck, and a leader-of-men, but probably would be on most people’s douchebag list for that era. Here’s an illustration:

 

Guy’s like Corey infuriate men who have invested their self-worth in the accomplishments of what they think ought to be universally appreciated and rewarded. So when they’re confronted with a natural Alpha being undeservedly rewarded for brazenly acting out of accord with what they think the rules ought to be, they seethe with resentment. The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator. The conflict then comes from seeing his new definition of Alpha not being rewarded or even appreciated as well as a natural Alpha attitude and the cycle continues. Your respect (or anyone else’s) for an Alpha has nothing to do with whether or not he possess an Alpha mindset. 3 failed marriages and 100+ lays has nothing to do with his having or not having an Alpha mindset. There are many well respected betas who’ve never had a passing thought of infidelity, or may have 300 lays either with prostitutes or because they possess fame or stunning good looks and women come to him by matter of course.

The take home message here is that you are not Alpha because of your achievements, you have your achievements because you are Alpha. You possess a mindset you either had to develop or it came naturally to you. I constantly field questions from young men asking me whether some action or behavior they displayed to a woman was Alpha, or Alpha enough. The real answer is that Alpha behaviors are manifestations of an Alpha mindset. And just like Corey the Alpha Buddah, the introspect required to wonder if something was or wasn’t Alpha wouldn’t ever be a consideration enough to ask. You almost need to have a childlike understanding to really appreciate what Alpha really is. Kids get Alpha. Even the picked on, introverted, beta-to-be kid has a better understanding of Alpha than most adult men do because he lacks the abstract thinking required to rationalize Alpha for himself. Most men, by our socialization, and to varying degrees, lose this in-born Alpha mindset over time. The naturals, the Corey’s of the world, have a better grasp on it’s usefulness and repurpose it; either to their adulthood advantage or their detriment.


211 responses to “Alpha

  • Dan Fletcher

    Thanks for the post. This topic is definitely a source of much contention in the man-o-sphere.

    People want to believe that an alpha has to be a paragon of virtue, honor and integrity. A man who is a pillar of civilization and selflessly works for the benefit of mankind.

    An alpha is merely one who makes the gina tingle. He may or may not meet the above criteria.

    Few things better illustrate the need to control female hypergamy than the fact that women pine for guys like Corey W.

    Perhaps we need a new word to describe a man who is an alpha in the game sense of the word and also a benefactor of civilization?

  • samseau

    All those words and still no universal definition of alpha. Sorry, not a fan of this post.

  • Issac Jordan

    @samseau

    Roissy’s definition is a good default, as it avoids moralistic implications altogether and simply focuses on how attractive a man is to women:

    “[A man's alphaness is defined by] how hot are the women he can attract, how strong is that attraction for him, and how many of those women find him attractive.”

    Still somewhat subjective, but it’s a starting point.

  • YOHAMI

    Hate to say it but that douchebag dumbass cockhead IS alpha. And you can see the interviewer getting aroused, to the point is start launching shit tests, and all the air of indignation at the end. The guy only needed to throw a couple of playfully dominant sexual teasings there and she would have bursted in giggles.

    Still, the dude is like the worst example to show what alpha is about, because non-understanding people will fixate at all the wrong things. Is it the glasses, hair, peacock? is it the stupidity? Nope. Its the thread that ties all of those things together.

    So. The guy is alpha. Just not a good man.

  • unbowed

    Too often when guys see examples of alpha males, particularly douchbag alphas, they believe that they’re supposed to ape the behavior of the d.a. The guys then complain that they don’t want to be like that douchbag or that he can’t be a ‘true’ alpha.
    But the trick is to learn something from the alpha, not try to imitate him.
    I agree with Roissy’s definition of alpha and it’s funny how it ticks people off (especially women who don’t want to believe they could be attracted to anyone less than courageous and wonderful).
    These controversial posts are great.

  • Nas

    So what exactly is alpha then? I do sense some sort of an “essence” from watching Corey but I wish Rollo had provided some sort of definition and why woman find this so arousing. Is it the “I do what I want and I don’t give a fuck” attitude or what is it exactly?

    On a sidenote, I don’t see why so many people hating on the kid so much; calling him a douchebag or scumbag. I think he is very likeable.

  • YOHAMI

    I find Roissy´s definition misguiding. Defining alpha in terms of “attraction” is like defining water in terms of “it takes your thirst out”.

    I mean, sure, water takes your thirst out. But that´s not what makes it “water”. Taking your thirst out is somatic.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I’ve got a post coming up about this.

  • Jordan

    Great post, man. It is a mindset.

  • YOHAMI

    He carries himself with a chip on his shoulder, and is unreactive / unapologetic about it. He got confronted about his peackoking and the interviewer tried to shame him on it, and he didnt concede or really acknowledge it. He has a childish confidence and amusement that is independent on the external feedback. If anything, he takes the feedback in terms of “I love it and everyone loves it”.

    With 10% more dominance and teasing he would bang the interviewer.

    And he gets hated for that very same reason. He triggers indignation. See. The thing with alpha is it triggers the “who the fuck do you think you are?” in everyone. Keeping that frame and turning everyone else into saying “ok, you are the master” is the other half of it. That guy is very close.

  • House of Jacques

    Will Rollo ever speak about how Alphas turn the “who the fuck do you think you are?” reactions around themselves to seize the frame and get to be the boss? I feel this is important to know. Guys like Corey ARE Alpha, I’ll give you that, but behaving like that is going to make you a lot of enemies. Sure, you’ll bang a bunch of girls, but in with such an attitude.

    Then again, maybe he’s one of those alphas that don’t overlap with the “Leader of Men”. I’m starting to see Rollo’s point.

    Great post. I’m waiting for the follow-up!
    And to whomever said he found Corey likeable, I do, too. He’s fucking cool.

  • mac

    Maybe because “alpha”, unlike water, has no existence in itself. Water is still water, whether you drink it or not. But an “alpha” who doesn’t strongly attract numerous hot babes… well he just ain’t no alpha.

    In other words alpha is it’s own effects, and nothing more than that.

  • YOHAMI

    Eh, wrong.

    There are traits / behaviors that are alpha, beta, omega, etc. Your alpha/beta/omega status, or, your “nature” depends on which traits/behaviors you have and express.

    What you´re saying is that a water that doesnt cure numerous thirsty people aint no water. And eh, you are right. But the point stands.

  • YOHAMI

    He´s a leader of some men, for sure. Any character like that will spawn a number of beta followers who want to imitate him and capitalize on the stuff he´s projecting.

    Give him a mic and a few grands for a music video and marketing and its a done deal.

  • YOHAMI

    Actually, sea water is bad when you´re thirsty and it´s still water. So. You can mix a lot of alpha traits and enough of unattractive traits to make a tempting but bad cocktail.

    Stuff can be measured by its effects / face value but its unconducting to understand what stuff “is”.

  • mac

    As you know, the origin of the alpha term is the observation of primates. Now did they identify the alpha by looking for the biggest/most beautiful/cockiest/funniest ape ? No. They looked for the ape who was humping all of the she-apes, and who the other apes backed down from. i.e. from the very start, the alpha concept referred to effects, not causes.

    Of course, you can correlate many characteristics/behaviour patterns with these effects, but at the end of the day, the alpha is defined by the effects, not the causes.

  • YOHAMI

    And people didnt examine the molecules of water in order to get their thirst satiated. In one hand you have the nature of things and in other hand cognition of these things. What Im saying is that measuring something from the cognition side ONLY is misguiding.

    Water is not “what cures your thirst”. Curing your thirst is a an effect of it, and might vary between individuals. Alpha is not “what attract girls”, but attraction is an effect of it.

  • johnnymilfquest

    Awesome post.

    The thing that really came across in the video was just how unreactive Corey was.

    I’ve got to hand it to him. It would be hard not to react emotionally in one way or another.

    Laughter if you think the situation is absurd. Anger if you are on the defensive. Cringing if you are apologetic.

    The content of what he said didn’t matter. His affect display told the whole story.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_display

  • Mike C

    Good example. This clarified it for me.

  • YOHAMI

    Thanks for that link, learning new stuff.

  • Mike C

    The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator.

    One thing of interest I’ve noticed as more women get acquainted with the alpha/beta terminology, and participate on manosphere type blogs, is they seem particularly interested/vested in trying to define/redefine what it means for a man to be alpha, and furthermore it always seems to be done with an intent of virtue and duties being part of the alpha package. Not sure if you’ve ever ventured over to Dalrock’s blog but he has a bunch of female commenters who seem intent on redefining alpha to something that fits what I think you would characterize as the female imperative.

    The real answer is that Alpha behaviors are manifestations of an Alpha mindset. And just like Corey the Alpha Buddah, the introspect required to wonder if something was or wasn’t Alpha wouldn’t ever be a consideration enough to ask.

    Interesting point. If you have to ask, it isn’t and you aren’t. Question is how doe one reach that level. Depending on how one was raised, the beta stuff can run really deep…almost like a computer virus you can’t quite get rid of entirely. I wonder if for some (and I’d put myself in that category) the most you can get to is to overlay a bunch of new programming, code, patches on top of it. The virus will always be there but hopefully all the the new stuff can keep the day to day functioning of the system very efficient and keep the effects of the virus minimal.

  • YOHAMI

    Mike,

    “Question is how doe one reach that level.”

    The same way you dont ever question if you can turn left or right and grab something. It´s an action, not a belief. You try it and do it enough and it becomes reality. When you have it as a reality, it can be taken away. You are “deluded” and fixated in a moment. It carries on with you. If you lose it, inertia sets it back to the center. The mind is always in that state actually, grabbing something. Even if you let lose it grabs something else (be it, emptiness or silence is still something). The trick is to try and get into the Alpha side of you so it becomes your first nature – your default self.

  • YOHAMI

    *When you have it as a reality, it CANT be taken away.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    There is one thing and one thing only in the PUA community that completely rubs me the wrong way, and that is the co-opted use of the term “alpha” to describe a guy who knows how to get laid.

    As yohami stated, alpha is a cause, not an effect. An alpha is a “Socially dominant individual”. Look it up in the dictionary. Roissy (or whoever used it in this context before he did) bastardized it by using it to describe a man who is able to lay an arbitrary number of women. Successful mating is nothing more than a by-product of being an alpha male.

    We now have books being marketed to younger guys telling them that they too can be an “alpha male” if they learn the secrets. No, you aren’t an alpha male if you learn how to get laid, you are a guy who learned how to mimic or borrow some of the behaviors of a true alpha male in order to get some low cost ass. While there is nothing wrong with maximizing your chances with the opposite sex through any legal means possible, to go around thumping your chest and proclaiming that you have mastered the art of being an alpha male is ridiculous to anyone who understands that pussy isn’t the only thing in life that can make a man happy.

    This reminds me of an interview I saw a couple of years ago with one of the Gracie brothers talking about how he gave up his involvement with the UFC because it had evolved from being a sport that was all about who was truly the best fighter in the world based upon ALL of the skills of the fighter, to a sport that awarded some guy the title based upon his ability to fight under a strict set of rules and criteria.

    If you want evidence of just how far off the PUA definition of alpha is, all you have to do is look at the discussions about whether or not Tiger Woods or Barack Obama are alpha. Despite what Roissy or others might have you believe, despite how much money one of these men might be forced to pay out in a divorce settlement or how one of them sits with a certain posture, I can assure you that both of these men are unequivocally more alpha that a hundred of us combined will probably ever be. To someone who has experienced firsthand what TRUE social status can do for a man’s lovelife, listening to someone try to construct an argument that these men who could bang endless streams of pussy on demand might not be “alpha” is like listening to a bunch of math geeks talk about how their intellect makes them superior to the members of the championship football team.

    And in case anyone is wondering my distaste for the term alpha being used in this way isn’t about me not fitting the definition. According to Roissy’s definition I am an alpha male. At the end of the day I am able to recognize that I am an alpha male in some social situations and not in others. If you read some internet blogs and learn how to bang 20 or 30 or 50 or however many chicks it doesn’t make you an alpha, it makes you a guy who learned how to bang x number of chicks.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Here’s something else for you to chew on.

    The idea of “vulnerabilty game” has been around for awhile now. Current wisdom tells us that in order to maximize our chances of getting laid, we are better off employing a majority of alpha behavior tempered with a small amount of beta behavior, which I would agree with. I have lost my fair share of sexual opportunities due to not having shown enough of a softer side.

    If certain behaviors make you “alpha”, how do you reconcile the idea that you have to use “beta” type behaviors to maximize your chances of getting laid?

  • xsplat

    To all of your questions I have recommended that some people use a different term than alpha, for the useful PUA concept that is lately used and termed alpha.

    You can have any concept that you personally are happy with to mean alpha. That’s fine. As long as you can also hold the concept that PUAs use. Just give that a different name if that makes you feel more comfortable. Call it olpha.

  • unbowed

    Exactly Xsplat.
    In the context of PUA forums, alpha is the man who gets the most and the hottest girls. This is not something that makes you a good or bad man.
    Why complicate this?
    Outside the PUA forums, you’re free to redefine the term alpha to your liking.

  • YOHAMI

    Alpha does get the hottest girls, for sure.

    Why “complicate” it? because understanding what alpha is, and not just what its external effects are, can get you there faster.

  • mac

    Yohami, you seem to be forgetting that you are the one who made the water comparison, not me. My whole point is that alpha is not like water.

    I can see I won’t convince you, and hey, it’s only semantics anyway. Happy hunting.

  • mac

    “As yohami stated, alpha is a cause, not an effect. An alpha is a “Socially dominant individual”. Look it up in the dictionary. ”

    That definition looks to me to describe an effect and not a cause.

    “At the end of the day I am able to recognize that I am an alpha male in some social situations and not in others.”

    Exactly. Because alpha is not something intrinsic to you, but an effect in certain social environments.

    I share your distate for the use of the word alpha, I think it should be reverved for monkeys and the like.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    What I meant to say was that pussy a byproduct of alpha behavior, not the determinant of it.

    Alpha isn’t intrinsic to anyone. It is ALWAYS an effect of social situations because the definition of alpha is “leader of a social group”. Most people wouldn’t argue that Clint Eastwood is/was an alpha male, but drop him in the middle of an aggressive tribe of primitive people who think he is the reincarnation of the devil and he won’t be getting any social cred from anyone, let alone banging the women.

  • YOHAMI

    That´s like a massive shit test. If he stands there manly enough, some of the women might complot to free him and get some dick while they are at it.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    You, sir, understand the point that I am trying to make.

    The PUA community has turned “notches” and certain behaviors into some kind of measuring stick for masculinity. When the 13 year old internet geeks are talking about this or that being “alpha” you know that the meaning is getting lost.

  • xsplat

    Relative to your use of the term alpha, the meaning may be lost and wrong.

    But if you just give it a different word, and forget that it was once associated with the word alpha, can the concept have any use? It is a practical concept?

    Imagine for a moment that on PUA boards we did use the word olpha. Does that PUA concept of olpha have any practical use?

  • YOHAMI

    Well, girls dont give a fuck about semantics or the PUA community agreements either. Girls just want to fuck the most Alpha men they can find. If you want to fuck lots of girls, focusing on becoming Alpha is more productive than focusing on its effects. Just saying.

  • xsplat

    But you can’t focus on becoming olpha unless you also focus on causing the effects. Because if unless you are causing the effects, then you are not olpha. If you are causing the effects, then your actions are olpha.

    In practical terms no one gives a flying fuck if we are alpha or not. We just want to cause the effects.

  • xsplat

    I hear you saying that there is an essence of you that needs to be Alpha, and all the rest falls into place. You argue that focusing on the outward appearances fails to really cause the important substantive changes.

    That may, or may not be a useful way to look at things. Personally I think you can focus on the outward and the inward will eventually follow, due to the positive feedback loops causing you to internalize your actions as congruent with your personality.

    However it makes little difference if the inner must be worked on first or later. If the inner work doesn’t cause outward effects, the inner work is not working to become alpha.

    This is real world measurable attitude that causes real world measurable effects. Nothing is alpha unless it attracts women. The end.

  • xsplat

    And everything that attracts women is (pua defined) alpha.

    Again – you can have any personal definition of what a REAL alpha is that you want. So then parse the notion that everything that attracts women is olpha.

    That is a useful mental framework to have, and allows people to communicate effective strategies.

  • YOHAMI

    xplat, here is the whole point:

    Alpha is a set of traits and behaviors (core), those happen to be attractive (effect). Compare that to a tennis player. Technique, attitude and skill are the core. Winning matches is the effect.

    The basic notion of Alpha is that it´s unreactive and independent of the results. This is where the stuff breaks for PUA.

    If you measure Alpha by the results, if you go play the field CARING about the effects, you´re by definition in reactive mode. When you are reactive, you´re not Alpha, and thus, not attractive = no girls.

    You can say “but techinque and skills and attitude means nothing unless you win the tennis match” and you´re right. Without the effect, without winning, the frame is nothing. Unless its put out there and brings results, all you have is a pile of shit.

    The point is: having the core as the priority is a highway to Alpha, as opposed to measuring the core by the effects.

    The guy in the video is just doing his thing and plenty of unreactive. If he was doing that for the “effects” he would come up as fake. As fake, he would still get some effects, but not the same as if he was the real thing. I think the guy in the video is the real thing: he doesnt genuinely give a shit.

    If he only cared about the “effects” of not giving a shit, then he would give a shit, and he wouldnt get as much “effects”.

    I´ve been in the road enough to be able to tell the difference.

    Its not inner vs outer. Its inner > outer. The more you work on the core, the easier and more natural the effects. The more you care about the effects, the harder it gets. So. That.

  • xsplat

    You can’t describe what that “core” of your is independently of describing the effects.

    If you have any core attributes that do not cause attraction from women, then they are not alpha traits.

    The reason you need to talk about effects is to keep the art of seduction a science. Without measuring effects, it’s just all abstract theory and talk.

    We refine through observing real world effects.

  • YOHAMI

    You cant define a tennis skill that doesnt cause points either. Im not saying “dont measure effects”. Im saying defining Alpha by its effects ONLY is misguiding to get there. Already explained why.

  • xsplat

    I’m sorry yohami, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I really don’t understand your functional point.

    PUAs talk about attractiveness triggers, and generally say that those skilled at manipulating these attractiveness triggers have a personality that is therefore called alpha.

    You are saying there there is a different personality that independent of being able to push attractiveness triggers, but that also happens to be able to push attractiveness triggers anyway? And you are saying that this is the real alpha?

    There is no distinction there. If you can describe ANY way to push the attractiveness triggers, through inner or outer technique – you are still talking about pushing attractiveness triggers. And if you are not talking about pushing attractiveness triggers, then you are NOT talking about pushing attractiveness triggers. You are not talking about traits that puas describe as alpha.

    Either it works to get girls wet, or it doesn’t. If it does, it’s alpha. If it doesn’t, it’s not. There is no technique that is not a technique. There is no being. Everything is technique.

  • YOHAMI

    Xplat,

    Already explained the functional point about caring about effects and reactiveness and the frame and why one is easier and the other is harder. If you care about refuting what Im saying or something please address that.

    I agree with

    “You are saying there there is a different personality that independent of being able to push attractiveness triggers”

    No, Im saying the Alpha personality, if you define it by its effects only, you´re putting it harder to reach for yourself. Already covered why.

    “There´s no being, everything is technique”. Meh. We´re crossing the metaphysical here. Of course there´s a being: the one doing the actions. And the being has an identity.

  • YOHAMI

    I agree with* your stuff that the effects are measurable and that Alpha triggers all the attraction stuff. Yes it does. But the point of Alpha is not to trigger all those buttons. Triggering is a result of, not the direct intention.

    Man this stuff should be Alpha 101.

  • xsplat

    Yohami, you seem to be saying that becoming aware of the cause and effects of your actions detracts from your alphaness.

    That’s just silly.

  • YOHAMI

    In a single line: caring about the effects isnt attractive.

  • xsplat

    The point of learning seduction is to seduce.

    I could give a flying fuck how “alpha” I am.

    The point of a wrench is to turn nuts. It isn’t to be a great wrench.

  • YOHAMI

    I get what you want and how you view this stuff.

    It is like a tennis player saying “I just want to win matches, I dont give a fuck about how good of a tennis player I am” though.

    See, the better you “are” the more you win. Already explained the point, plenty.

  • xsplat

    If I’m understanding your position, it’s that not being outcome dependent raises confidence.

    My position is that you can be aware of all the workings and machinations of game to the finest detail without losing confidence.

    Awareness of how actions affect outcome does not translate into being outcome dependent and losing confidence based on outcome.

    If I’m groking your position, it’s that game is better when its internalized to the point of being subconscious and when these subconscious positions are not only about game.

    I’m saying that game is about game is about game, and it doesn’t matter if it’s subconscious or not, and it doesn’t matter if non-game concerns are happening or not. Effective seduction is what women perceive of as alpha, and if women are perceiving anything as alpha, it’s effective game.

    Look, you might say to yourself, “I’m really interested in aircraft design and managing a team of employees who build up a profitable airline”. You might not be trying to run game. But it’s perceived of as alpha.

    Anything perceived of as alpha, whether you intend it to seduce or not, is only categorized as seductive by the effect. If you were really interested in world of warcraft and effectively managed a team of game players, and this did not seduce women, those exact same skills and traits and internalized attitudes would not be alpha.

    It’s only alpha by the effect.

  • itsme

    It is like a tennis player saying “I just want to win matches, I dont give a fuck about how good of a tennis player I am” though.

    but winning matches is the goal, and is the metric by which your ‘goodness’ is measured. if you can win the most matches, are you not good? if you think you’re a good player, but don’t win any matches, does it matter what you believe?

    few players win every single match they play, but the good ones figure out what they did wrong and leverage that information into future wins.

  • YOHAMI

    No, winning matches is not the goal.

    Playing the game is the goal. Wining is a measure. But for Alpha, wining already happened. So the focus is to ENJOY it.

    Wining can only be the goal when you contemplate losing.

    Alpha frame 101.

  • YOHAMI

    Awareness is vital, never said anything against awareness.

    “If I’m groking your position, it’s that game is better when its internalized to the point of being subconscious and when these subconscious positions are not only about game.”

    No. Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there. Will you address what Im saying at all?

    “It’s only alpha by the effect.”

    Nope.

    Alpha is cause, never effect. If something is alpha by its effects, it is not Alpha at all.

    Check the dude in that video and what I have been saying about reactiveness etc. I already poured all of the data. n

  • Good Luck Chuck

    but winning matches is the goal, and is the metric by which your ‘goodness’ is measured. if you can win the most matches, are you not good? if you think you’re a good player, but don’t win any matches, does it matter what you believe?

    That’s the majority of the problem with the co-opted definition of alpha. It leads men to believe that they are playing for the prize and not for the game. If your sole focus is women and your sole determinant for being successful in life is how much pussy you can get, you are gonna miss out on a whole lotta other cool stuff.

    I am not against the PUA community at all. Matter of fact I think that all men should know and internalize the knowledge. The problem I have is with teaching men that they can find the holy grail by learning to talk a woman out of her pants. PUA’s would have you believe that there is no point in wasting your time with anything else when you can get right to the pussy. There is a whole other world of enjoyment out there that is yours for the taking when you embrace the idea that it isn’t all about the prize.

  • itsme

    i get what you’re saying.

    if you read a pua blog, of course it would seem that getting pussy is of prime (perhaps only) importance, because….it’s a pua blog. guys read such blogs to help them score more pussy. but that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s all they want out of life, any more than guys exchanging tips on a car forum/blog are only concerned about cars and nothing else.

    i personally have never gotten the impression that these blogs are trying to convince guys that getting a woman out of her pants is the holy grail. i just see them as a medium for information exchange. how the information is used is up to each participant. the public nature of the medium means that it will attract all types of participants, with different goals.

  • unbowed

    Certainly there are benefits from following the wisdom on this blog that go beyond picking up women. Learning to be unflappable is an excellent skill in tense situations.

    But for the blog it’s better to have a narrow definition of alpha, as opposed to an overly broad interpretation that is open to self-serving tinkering by women (e.g. men need to man-up) or misinterpretation by well-meaning men (e.g. an alpha is always a strong, leader of men). The narrow definition keeps us all on the same page. We can’t even have a proper disagreement on tactics if we don’t agree on what the terms mean.

    Also, I have yet to see an alternative definition of alpha that is succinct and logical (again, for use in this forum).

    So, in the context of this forum, lets keep it simple so it can’t be subverted: Alpha is what turns on women.

  • BroHamlet

    I didn’t get the impression that this kid was really that much of a douche. I don’t agree with what he did, but he did apologize. How many of you would let someone try to make an example of you on national TV when you’ve already fessed up? The interviewer tried to scold him and he stood his ground because it’s not even her business to do any scolding. Maybe i have a problem with authority because I (and I suspect most people here) wouldnt have bent over either.

    Off topic: If this kid is a decent promoter, which he seems to have a knack for, with some seed money he could rent out a park and make 20Gs on a benefit party or concert.

  • xsplat

    I get the idea that some people have resistance to being defined by women, or judged by women.

    But that’s the setup. Women judge what they find attractive.

    It turns out that appearing to be unmoved by judgment can be attractive. But only within the context of social awareness and frame control. An electrical engineer unmoved by womens opinion of his apartment cluttered with used electronics can have all the aloof confidence he wants and it won’t be attractive.

    Women are the arbiters of what they find attractive. This necessarily means that those who want to be good at attraction must pay attention to and modify their attitudes and behaviors such that what they do attracts women.

    This chafes some people. But I don’t want to change who I am just so some women want me! I want to lead my life for me!

    That’s fine. Do that. But on blogs that deal with women you can’t get away from the fact that the real world is empirical and results are measured. If not caring what women thinks works, then that works. If in some contexts it does not, then in some contexts it does not. The only way to differentiate between what works and what does not work is by the effect.

    And men have been doing this carefully and scientifically and sharing their results, and we have a good idea now of what is attractive to women and what is not.

    No one is forcing anyone to be attractive. But that option is there for those who want to be. And yes, it is all about the outcome.

  • YOHAMI

    Xplat, care to comment about the reactiveness issue Im bringing?

  • xsplat

    I already did. Game theory covers being reactive very clearly and specifically. When you have the definition of alpha being “what women are sexually attracted to”, reactiveness is dealth with perfectly well. You don’t have to have a definition of alpha outcome independent in order to pass shit tests.

    You say “Alpha is cause, never effect. If something is alpha by its effects, it is not Alpha at all. ” which just doesn’t mean anything. Why is your alpha cause alpha? How can you know? It just is because it is?

    We only know something is green because we measure it as green. We shine light on it and see the effect.

    You worry too much about worry and judgement and awareness. Being charismatic demands social awareness. You say “Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there. ” but that is just proof by assertion. And it’s a meaningless assertion, because you have no way to define what is alpha to begin with.

    My system of thought is practical. Yours is meaningless and vague. You keep it that way deliberately in order to boost confidence, but that is not necessary.

    There is no primary alpha core that is independent of effect. And if there were, we could measure the effects, and so we may as well measure the effects. You prefer not to measure, so that the core does not lose confidence.

  • YOHAMI

    Oh dude.

    Anyway. More girls for me.

  • xsplat

    There are two schools of thought regarding self esteem. There is the “you’re perfect just the way you are” school, which teaches that people have a core that is basically fundamentally good, and there is the school that teaches that you are good if you can produce good outcomes.

    I’m of the latter school.

    I believe that a greater confidence comes from the latter school.

  • YOHAMI

    You keep missing the whole point dude.

  • xsplat

    Anyway. More girls for me.

    So you are not outcome independent after all. You’re saying that your way to be alpha is more attractive.

    You keep missing the whole point dude.

    I’ve made every effort to understand what YOUR point is. Not THE point – YOUR point.

    I’ve quoted you in you in my replies, I’ve addressed your words and concepts. You have shown no effort to address my examples. I understand your point as clearly possible given your words – as I’ve made every effort to show. You are being obstinate and stubbornly refuse to even notice a thing I’ve said.

    The idea of alpha independent of the effects of alpha is an undefined idea divorced from empirical reality.

  • unbowed

    @xsplat
    Yohami seems like a good guy, but he’s frustrated that his tortuous ideas of alpha aren’t accepted so he turns to ad hominem attacks.
    On other topics he’s been sound.

  • YOHAMI

    Xsplat,

    Thing is you keep misrepreseting anything I say and arguing against figurative ideas that Im not presenting. In short, you´re doing strawman fallacy. Example:

    “The idea of alpha independent of the effects of alpha is an undefined idea divorced from empirical reality.”

    Yeah. But who is saying theres anything “independent” of the effects? not me. So who are you arguing against, what are you disagreeing with?

    In reality you havent even touched my argument. You keep beating the shit out of some non-present figure though.

    Seems like me questioning some PUA concept rubs you the wrong way. If thats the case, lets just leave like that. But if you genuinely want to argue and prove me wrong, at least address what Im saying, instead of fighting your mis-representations of what Im saying.

  • xsplat

    Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there.

    Is that misrepresenting you?

  • YOHAMI

    Thats my quote and thats fine, and it means something different than the argument(s) you keep fighting against. What does it mean? already explained it!

  • xsplat

    Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there.

    But who is saying theres anything “independent” of the effects? not me

    You aren’t saying anything, you slipper mofo.

  • xsplat

    You are very comfortable with internal inconsistencies in your mental map.

    I I was going to talk to someone who refused reason and accountability I’d be trying to fuck them.

  • YOHAMI

    Xsplat etc.

    So, PUA has defined Alpha as “what attracts women”. Good. Alpha does attract women. You can break down every action and every detail and make a comprehensive list about alpha, and then you can go and emulate it piece by piece and get similar, of not same results. Good? not arguing about that.

    What Im saying is this:

    Defining Alpha purely from a point of view of its results and effects, is putting it harder for yourself to reach the Alpha state.

    What Alpha state? well, a state or a being or whatever is out of your current handle of things, consider this:

    Mind has frames. What is a frame? a logical space where you operate. An identity. A narrative that tells your story. Your identity. What you consider the boundaries of your reality. Your ego. Your beliefs and projections. Your fears. Your limits. Cool? so, whatever you are, your current “frame” distorts whatever you perceive, and distorts whatever you act on, and pampers it with your frame. The how and why´s are subject for another debate.

    Lets just agree momentarily that the mind has states.

    What Im saying is that Alpha, Beta, Omega and anything in between are frames.

    You project your frame out there, and the world returns you the same you´re projecting. Cause and effect. Most of the time, you are the cause. In whatever case, the stronger frame dominates and conquers the weaker frame. When reality sets its frame on you, you´re his bitch.

    Alpha > Beta > Omega. If you put these frames to fight each other, the more dominant wins, right? So Alpha projects its dominance over the other frames, and the other frames go into reactive mode, reacting to Alpha´s proposition, and concede Alpha its power. And so on.

    So. What is the problem of defining Alpha as “what attracts women”? that, duh, attracting women is like 50% of the deal.

    But moreso, if you start recopilating and emulating what alpha does, with your current (beta or whatever frame), you´re just a beta doing tricks. And. IT WILL SHOW. Chances are you will just be jumping through hoops you set for yourself, and then whipping your own ass when you fail, and pumping your self esteem when you succeed. In other words, you will be punishing and rewarding yourself.

    Guess who punishes and rewards himself? not Alpha. Who tries so hard? not Alpha.

    Is self punishing and rewarding attractive? nope! trying hard attractive? nope!

    So whats attractive? Loving yourself unconditionally.

    Who does that? eh. Only Alpha can. And its a deluded thing for sure. It is also attractive as hell.

    Can you break that down, being your own thing, doing your own thing, the whole alpha archetype, the whole book, while at the same time expressing totally what you are, without masks or tricks, being “real”… if you are doing techniques, because you want the results from a different frame than the frame you have?

    In short, you can do some, but there´s not enough energy to sustain it.

    You cant do the whole thing. Your energy will run out. The building will be too expensive to maintain. When you get to the point most of the stuff you do is off-frame, when you start getting the results of the frame you are emulating… you´ll realize the law of diminishing returns already hit. The stuff you get… you paid so much already, and it doesnt even start to fill the gap you´re creating on yourself by being off-gap. You wanted love, sex, admiration, whatever? you might get a tiny bit of it, but in contrast of what you are paying for it, its a fucking broken deal. Soul sucking experience.

    So whats the solution?

    First to the problem, again:

    Defining alpha by its effects is counterproductive to get there: because the one who wants to get there, the current (beta) frame, is the one who has to be sacrificed.

    A curve:

    Defining success by the money only makes you want the money more, and makes you forget about all the mechanics that are useful to make money. And, you only want all that money because you are poor. So you ARE poor, right? thats why you CARE about money. Do rich people care about money as much as you? you probably care about money because you are hungry. You probably dont even understand what is being rich.

    And the point is that without understanding what is to be rich, all the stuff that has to happen, the frame where it operates, etc, including in some cases the hard work… without understanding all of that, whats the point? you want money. Because you are poor. And always will be. Unless the poor in you dies.

    So. The Alpha frame.

    Alpha is the top in the social chain. Alpha has abundance of everything. But Alpha is also responsible for everything, starting of himself. Alpha doesnt need anyone. But people look up to Alpha and deposit their attention on him. Alpha is the first to eat until he is satiated, and also the first to stand alert when enemies come. Alpha sets the rules. But Alpha is also responsible when things go bad. People will always, always, always, be testing Alpha to see if he is the real deal. But Alpha doesnt really care. Alpha is Alpha. Alpha is the master. When you challenge Alpha, he looks down at you like you are a child. Alpha is rich to the bone. If everything fails, at least you still have him and if he dies, its like your whole country has died. Alpha is the rule for every other man to follow. Alpha is a brute force, a brute arrow, that doesnt even try, that doesnt work hard, because its Alpha to the core, and whats left for him is just to do his thing, be himself, and rule the fucking world that spins around him, like thats what it was all designed for.

    And every behavior that exudes from this abundance, confidence, detachment, grandiosity, self delusion, is extremely attractive to women.

    Even the negative aspects of it.

    But women are also attracted to other things, example, not Alpha men. Women like drama and the only drama Alpha can generate, is to not reprocicate affection because he is busy with his abundance. Women like security and safety, and a lot of the time Alpha is not available. So, women have room for other frames. Women are extremely attracted to Alphas, but women are not Alphas and cannot live in the frame. The Beta frame is closer to women, and women can relate better to it, and are attracted to it, just not as much.

    So what´s the problem with defining Alpha by its effects? the Alpha frame I mean. The problem is that you are looking indirectly and wanting what the frame effects are.

    But the Alpha frame doesnt care about what its effects are. Alpha is just content of being a God and getting his way.

    So from the moment one, the moment you want to be like a God so you can have power, you are wanting that because you feel powerless. And since you feel powerless, you cant feel like a God, you cant incarnate the frame, so you cant get the results, and anything you get will be incomplete.

    But whatever. Im repeating myself.

    Defining the frame by its external effects is misguiding to get there. If you want to get there, better understand what the frame is.

    There are traits, behaviors, that are Alpha. The more traits and behaviors you have in yourself for good, the closer the frame is. The more you act and respond from an Alpha frame, the closer it gets. The trick, put it simply, is to drop whatever you are now. Including all your dreams and aspirations, the whole frame. A total self death. Put that down. Then create a new frame, the best Alpha frame you can and start living again from it.

    So. “Becoming” the frame rather than “procuring to obtain the results from a frame different than your own”. Become step by step. Understand your limits, fears, aspirations, crush all of that, then gain step by step, one trait at a time.

    Detachment? check. Burn your house if you have to.
    Sexual boldness? check. Go sex clubs if you have to.
    Free spirit? check. Travel for a year or two.
    Confidence? check. Get experience. Do everything enough times until its done.
    Love your life? check. Quit your job if you have to.
    Risk taker? check. Do really risky stuff. Until you love it.
    Abundance frame? check.
    Check check check. x100.

    Etc. Game as a lot of great transcriptions and stuff of verbal game and stuff. Tricks. All of that is useful. If you use that as a roadmap. Like. OK do I have problems doing this? what is the problem? then crush the problem. Until you are totally fine doing what you are doing, like its your first nature.

    What is the difference on what Im saying and just “skills?” that Im talking about frame and identity. Im saying, transform yourself. Rather than increase yourself with skills. Im saying, smash your frame and grab the Alpha frame. Rather than “improve your masks so you can get the results from the pros”

    Any body trainer knows what Im talking about, I guess.

    The emphasis of guys on “getting abs”, when they should really care about whole body training, diet etc. “Oh but I dont want to do diet and train four times a week, I just want the abs”. Yeah, good luck with that.

    So, if you grab the Alpha frame and move towards it, doing the skillset increases your energy rather than decreasing your energy – because what you are doing clicks with your frame and is synced to your reality.

    I remember when I was learning this stuff. I was supposed to feel abundance frame and be cocky and confident… but every day reality told me otherwise. I didnt like my job, etc. So, I quit my job, and positioned myself where I could love my life: oh good. Now I dont have to FAKE this part. I can take something else in.

    The easiest way to get the results of Alpha is being it. Not just “doing it”. The easiest way to get the Alpha effects is to be Alpha. Do you want everyone look at you like you are the ultimate shit? be the ultimate shit. Want every girl around to to be so so so so fucking attracted to you they talk about you in their sleep? then be fucking attractive. Be it.

    But the effects are that. Effects.

    You can measure Alpha by its effects. But defining Alpha by its effects is counterproductive if you want to get there. Because the definition will be pampered by your current frame, and because the stuff you will do will get you somewhere else.

    The guy in that video is Alpha. And he is not doing what he is doing because of the effects (or he would be reactive, which he isnt). If you try to get to where the guy is, by caring about the effects, you´ll get somewhere else, somewhere between fake and wannabe and tryhard, maybe. Maybe.

  • xsplat

    I get the impression that if I reword what you say you’ll accuse me of mis-representing you.

    We already understood that you believe that acknowledging a goal leads you to think that you have a poverty mentality of a person who has not reached the goal.

    You are advocating a confidence trick of “Loving yourself unconditionally. ” Of deciding that you are already alpha.

    That’s a technique with a goal in mind, like any other. You are just trying hard to be unconscious of the goal.

    Perhaps you can see how this idea of yours

    So whats attractive? Loving yourself unconditionally.

    relates to self esteem. I was not misrepresenting you and talking about something completely different when I said

    There are two schools of thought regarding self esteem. There is the “you’re perfect just the way you are” school, which teaches that people have a core that is basically fundamentally good, and there is the school that teaches that you are good if you can produce good outcomes.

    I’m of the latter school.

    I believe that a greater confidence comes from the latter school.

    Do you see how I am rewording what you say in a way that is not mis-representing you?

    Self love and self esteem are analogous and similar. There are two schools of thought on self esteem and self love. Love your self and esteem yourself unconditionally, or conditionally.

    I posit that self esteem that is based on real world measures is stronger than unconditional self esteem.

  • YOHAMI

    No brother. For some reason, you keep doing it. Whats going on?

    “You are advocating a confidence trick of “Loving yourself unconditionally. ””

    No. Im saying the tricks dont make the cut.

    “I posit that self esteem that is based on real world measures is stronger than unconditional self esteem.”

    If you do read what Im saying, Im saying do the real stuff and change your life so the frame is sustained by reality (the effects and feedback)

    Really, its like you´re debating someone else bro. WTF.

    You keep pointing like Im saying something like this:

    “ehhh you dont need the results or effects! all you have to do is to believe inside of you, it doesnt matter if you dont get the results, if you believe it, you are!!! its so easy”

    But Im not. What Im saying is actually more hardcore than yours, because Im saying effects and skills are not ENOUGH.

    You need the skills and effects PLUS A THOUSAND.

    Dude. But. Whatever. I am frustrated now.

  • xsplat

    Even directly quoting you frustrates you.

    Your ideas are all a jumble. No matter you are frustrated.

    You don’t have to be intimidated by knowing what you goal is and having a goal. Knowing of a goal and having a goal is not at odds with being confident that you are a man who can attain that goal.

    If you still think I’m arguing with someone else, read your own disjointed ramblings.

  • YOHAMI

    Its all good bro. Have fun.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I generally agree with what yohami is saying but there are a couple of points that I want to expand on:

    1) I agree with roissy in that mimicking alpha traits can become a self fulfilling. Indeed some of this can be internalized to the point where simply aping the behaviors of a high value male will give you value.

    2) Saying “So whats attractive? Loving yourself unconditionally.
    Who does that? eh. Only Alpha can. And its a deluded thing for sure. It is also attractive as hell.”
    implies a couple of things. First it implies that somehow there is a way to be above caring what other people think. We are humans, and as social animals we will ALWAYS to some extent judge ourselves and determine our actions based upon what others think of us.

    Secondly, it implies that alpha is still some kind of nebulous state of being. We agree that the idea is to actually BECOME the alpha. My contention is that alpha is completely situational. You will never be THE alpha. Even THE alpha isn’t always THE alpha. Your goal should not be to become some kind of transcendental being. The goal is to become the TRUE definition of alpha- the leader of a social group or groups.

    3) “And the point is that without understanding what is to be rich, all the stuff that has to happen, the frame where it operates, etc, including in some cases the hard work… without understanding all of that, whats the point? you want money. Because you are poor. And always will be. Unless the poor in you dies.

    That’s the best quote you have posted so far. I have been rich and I have been relatively poor, and it has given me a perspective on money that most people don’t have. More importantly though, it has allowed me to apply those lessons to other areas of my life, this being one of them.

    —————

    The PUA mindset revolves around becoming “alpha” or more correctly mimicking alpha traits to attract women. The problem with this is that if you want to be TRULY attractive to the opposite sex you are going to have to do it from the top down, much as you are proposing. Sure, you can go out there and “demonstrate higher value” to women to get laid, but at the end of the day you are going to get smoked out unless you can back it up at some point in the future. PUA’s will argue that if any one woman disappears you can just go out and get another one, but how much energy do they waste constantly trying to chase something that is running away?

    I have been that guy who throws a party in my MTV cribs style pad where I have multiple girls fighting over who is going to sleep with me that night. It’s what I call “auto game”, and any man who experiences it for one day will instantly understand.

    When value exudes from patterns and routines that you run on women you are begging for pussy. When value exudes from your pores the pussy begs you.

  • YOHAMI

    Yes, Alpha is situational and context dependent. You are running an internal script, your mind has a frame, but it´s only as good as the situation you are in – and the effects you produce.

    I can relate to the MTV cribs and the girls fighting over you.

  • xsplat

    No, Good Luck Chuck, you can’t disagree with Yohami, because he didn’t say that.

    No matter what position he takes, that’s not what he really means.

    He doesn’t really mean that practicing alpha traits while at the same time working on the externalities of your life won’t eventually make you internalize alpha attitudes.

    He doesn’t really mean that alpha traits are not accurately described as traits that are seductive to women.

    His position is unassailable. Because he means something else.

  • xsplat

    And of course he doesn’t even mean it when he implies that merely holding the wrong definition of alpha can completely fuck up your oh so tenuous alpha frame.

  • xsplat

    “The working definition for PUA purposes of an alpha traits are traits that sexually excite women”

    “No, that can’t be right, because I’m cool, whether women like me or not! In fact it’s this very attitude that makes women like me!”

    Men don’t need a hampster like that.

  • King A

    I’m a fan of this post. Especially the use of the Venn diagram, which highlights an important point: Alpha can be applied to good or ill ends. The correspondence between “assholes” and alphas is coincidental.

    A rough synonym of alpha is independence or self-sufficiency: the “aloofness” and “amusement” that attends “confidence” in one’s “mastery.” You can apply this personality package to social or antisocial ends, making the criminal mastermind, the war-veteran NCO, the layabout fuckup, and the suave PUA all equally alpha with very different motivations.

    Rollo is hitting on something even more important in seeking to define alpha. You have to think beyond two dimensions. There are too many variables to offer a straight-line description, other than the Potter Stewart technique of “I know it when I see it.”

    You can define a virtue like Aristotle or like Shakespeare. Either you mark it out in nearly impenetrable prose, which is dependent on a chain of definitions all the way down to first principles (creating a massive tome like the Summa or the Nicomachean Ethics). Or you can bring the virtue alive by example or artistry and then point to your work and say, There, what that guy has, that’s alpha.

    The classic example of defining, say, “courage” is the golden mean between two equally malignant vices, which are “rashness” and “cowardice.”

    Alpha is the golden mean between indifference (sociopathy/solipsism) and over-investment (beta obsequiousness/dependency). So rather than having a single opposite, like a two-dimensional virtue, alpha lies at the center of many opposites, like an interior focal point of a multi-dimensional sphere. Roissy gets at this when he says, “The opposite of love is not hatred, it’s indifference.” Both are opposites of love, which is a balance among many variables.

    Or, you can be Rollo/Shakespeare and refer to the “Alpha Buddah” in your midst and say — there, that guy, that’s what I’m talking about.

    Game blogs are interested in the sexual dimension of this independence, and so it is most concerned with the superficial appearances that might temporarily seduce the opposite sex. But the whole “inner game” movement, and posts like Rollo’s above, are about making appearances real, and broadening the alpha scope beyond duping gullible women. After all, the term alpha comes from pack dynamics, which are about social domination and only incidentally about sex.

  • King A

    YOHAMI wrote: “And you can see the interviewer getting aroused….”

    No, you can’t. Detecting social cues that don’t exist is wish-fulfillment on par with masturbatory fantasy.

    I just watched it again. Where’s your evidence of “arousal”?

    It’s one thing for a man to possess the confidence that he is alluring and to proceed accordingly as if his assumptions were true. Fake it till you make it. It’s another thing to invent responses in other people to comport with a fictional script. Delusions of grandeur.

    The kid exhibits a couple of alpha traits that in isolation are good to observe for instructional purposes. But it’s fantastical to suggest he is dominating the conversation to the point of the woman’s arousal. The circumstances (separated by cameras, publicly broadcast, gotcha cross-examination mentality) probably make such a reaction all but impossible. Why pretend otherwise?

    The interviewer is indignant (if restrained) from beginning to end, at times lapsing into incredulity. The kid’s occasional deference to her authority (and the instinct to hide his face under sunglasses) says that he is a natural diamond, but still in the rough.

    I don’t see the point in making out this nascent alpha to be anything other than what he is.

    He deserves respect for running an effective defense — maintaining his frame in a potentially intimidating situation. And he gets admiration for doing it naturally. But he wasn’t exactly lighting up the scoreboard with offense, and you don’t win if you can’t score. Call it a tie at the end of regulation … against a heavily favored opponent with home-field advantage.

  • King A

    johnnymilfquest wrote: “The thing that really came across in the video was just how unreactive Corey was.”

    He appeared unreactive because he was hiding under sunglasses. Look more closely. I detected the beginning of some natural stammers that he very impressively bulled through.

    There’s a tendency to reimagine what you see to make it fit your preconceptions of what you think you should be seeing. But objectively he left plenty to be desired. It’s like the unreliable witness phenomenon. What is and isn’t really there?

    Some things left out. I saw quick, clipped answers, apologies, playing to type, and the superficial non-conformism of his ridiculous appearance (which as often as not is a product of insecurity rather than confidence).

    He more than makes up for these quibbles by passing her rapid-fire, epic shit tests on a national stage. So don’t get me wrong, he is impressive, and better than 95% of his peers. But it’s not a totally flawless performance.

  • King A

    Good Luck Chuck wrote: “An alpha is a ‘Socially dominant individual’. Look it up in the dictionary. Roissy (or whoever used it in this context before he did) bastardized it by using it to describe a man who is able to lay an arbitrary number of women. Successful mating is nothing more than a by-product of being an alpha male.”

    Right on. The blogs are ironically sex-obsessed, even as they assert their “aloofness” from the powers of women. This contradiction tends to devolve any discussion of alpha into a celebration of mimicry rather than true transformation.

    The solution to this is to get one’s head out of the vag. Game is most applicable on a broad social context, and the sexual dynamics are at best ancillary. But don’t say this too loud: if you indicate there is a world above and beyond evolutionary rutting, you are suspected as uninitiated (ignoramus), ill-informed (feminist), duped and cowardly (beta), or insufficiently manly (mangina).

    The first commandment of Game 1.0 is, “The masculine imperative is defined exclusively by his relationship to (and therefore dependency on) the opposite sex.” It is a deeply concealed form of pussy whipping.

  • YOHAMI

    Where:

    The interviewer keeps stumbling on her feet and reacommodating her posture, with a half eating grin, indignance, trying to bring the kid down, one shit test after another. Such power play, all of that, is how female arousal manifests when dealing with a jerk, just before the jerk breaks her.

    But the kid isnt dominating the interview nor taking advantage.

  • King A

    YOHAMI wrote: “Girls just want to fuck the most Alpha men they can find. If you want to fuck lots of girls, focusing on becoming Alpha is more productive than focusing on its effects. Just saying.”

    Best, pithiest description yet. Bravo.

    But be careful. Once you begin calling into question the received wisdom, The Fundamentalist Believers of Old Testament Game will crawl out of the woodwork to shout you down with the only instruments a bottom-rung evangelist has at his disposal: repetition and ad hominem.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    1. You can’t hide your voice behind sunglasses.
    2. What stammer?

    Personally, I would have had difficulty not laughing in that situation. Shades or no shades.

  • xsplat

    I’ve always found this a very strange criticism of game. People on blogs devoted to seduction focus too much on seduction.

    But that aside, your idea of an alpha can be an alpha who is not good at seduction. So you can see how your idea is not as practical, for the purposes of seduction, as the idea that is used on blogs where it is understood that the main thrust of the discussion is how to be seductive.

    For the purposes of seduction there is a seduction purposed definition of alpha.

  • xsplat

    It’s funny how poor logicians find their way to boards that discuss attraction to proclaim that the art of attraction shouldn’t be only focused on what women are attracted to.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    King A said:

    “Right on. The blogs are ironically sex-obsessed, even as they assert their “aloofness” from the powers of women. This contradiction tends to devolve any discussion of alpha into a celebration of mimicry rather than true transformation.”

    I have enjoyed roissy’s blog since I first discovered it a few years ago. But there is one thing that I hate about it- the culture that celebrates the chest thumping and posturing of these low SMV men who have transformed themselves into “alphas” by copying the behaviors of true high value males.

    That’s all game is. Mimicking the body language, the confidence, the “essence” of a man who has some combination of the golden triad- wealth, status, and power.

    This Game 1.0 crowd you speak of still have the training wheels on. They are so blinded by the prospect of easy pussy that they buy into the idea that if you can learn to talk women out of their panties that there is no need to pursue any of those banal, soul sucking activities like building status and wealth. What they fail to realize is that although pussy is the ultimate reward, it is not the only reward. They fall into the trap of pussy being their primary or only source of affirmation. As much as they want everyone to believe that their “abundance” frees them from the prison, they are as much or more slaves to the poon than anyone.

    At the end of the day we all want to get laid. Some of just tend to have a little more realistic idea of where it needs to fall on the scale of priorities.

  • xsplat

    I don’t know what gives you that impression. I don’t get it.

    If you were to spend time on a blog that spoke of ice cream, would you also get the impression that people there were ONLY concerned with ice cream and were unable to appreciate or persue anything other than ice cream?

    Of course the discussion is focused. It’s a themed blog.

    And people very often do discuss building up other ATTRACTIVE qualities, such as income and passions. As you well know.

  • xsplat

    I can’t help but get the impression that some people are against knowingly and deliberately and specifically being charming and seductive, and are against talking about it and are against teaching it.

    Full stop.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    There have been numerous references over the years by bloggers and commenters alike to the idea that the pursuit of wealth/status/power is a waste of time if you know game. They look down on people who pursue these things and use them to their advantage in the mating game.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I don’t know where you might have gotten that idea from any of the comments on this thread. I am all about using every advantage available. But I am also about experiencing some of the other finer things in life. Trappings of the life of a a TRUE alpha male. You can learn how to pretend to have high sexual market value and have to start the cycle all over again as soon as your current woman figures you out, or you can invest in actually acquiring high sexual market value and watch the money and pussy fall into your lap.

    There is some crossover between the two but not as much as the Game is God crowd would have you believe.

  • xsplat

    Yes, of course there is some disagreement, but there is also plenty of discussion about wealth and many people very specifically talk about how it’s helpful.

    Do you need monolithic agreement about every specific non-verbal game trait in order to feel happy about the endeavor?

    Inner game as well is discussed plenty.

    On game blogs, every aspect of attraction is discussed – not just verbal emulation of alpha traits.

    But you know this.

    I hate to let myself say something that might come across as disrespectful, but what choice do you leave me but to believe that you are involved in a sexual strategy of cock blocking.

  • xsplat

    And on game blogs people argue against becoming a genuinely high value male?

    I’m not seeing it.

    Would you go on a blog about kittens and tell people to get a life and stop focusing so much on kittens?

  • xsplat

    I’ve had this discussion before. What aspect of themed blog don’t you understand or are you against?

    If you are against the theme, you are against the theme.

    You know what a theme is – right? So why are you against the theme?

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