Alpha

The Alpha Buddah, Corey Worthington.

What I’m about to type here is not going to make me any new friends. I know because any discussion of what constitutes Alpha characteristics in a Man always becomes clouded by the self-perceptions of how well we think we align with them. As I’ve covered in prior postings, the ‘community’, the ‘manosphere’, the new understanding of gender relations that’s picked up momentum for the last 12 years has always generated it’s own terminologies for more abstract concepts. The danger in this is that these terms lack real, universal definition. For purposes of illustrating a concept these terms are usually serviceable – we have a general understanding of what makes for a ‘Beta’ or a Herb, or a man who falls into a ‘provider’ mentality. Even ‘Alpha’ in a specific context is useful as an illustrative tool, when the subject isn’t directly about ‘Alpha-ness’. It’s when we try to universally define what constitutes Alpha that the sparks start to fly. So before you continue on reading further, think about what you believe makes a guy Alpha. Got it in your head now? Good, now put all of that aside, purge that from your head, and read the next few paragraphs from the perspective that you don’t know anything about Alpha.

I was first introduced to the Alpha Buddah courtesy of Roissy and this post “Umm, sorry?” You can go ahead and read this from the Chateau’s perspective, and I think the analysis is pretty good. I call Corey the Alpha Buddah not in the hopes that men will aspire to his almost Zen like ‘being’ in Alpha, but rather to provide an example of Alpha in it’s most pure form. He literally IS Alpha, unclouded by pretense, afterthought, or conscious awareness of any influence that could have a hope of prompting introspection about his state.

Corey Worthington is a piss poor example of a human being, but he’s a textbook example of Alpha. I could use a lot of adjectives to describe this kid, but “beta” wouldn’t be one of them. What’s funny, and a bit ironic, is this kid has probably never come across Mystery Method or “the community” or even heard of ‘peacocking’ and he gets naturally what millions of guys pay small fortunes at PUA seminars to acquire over the course of a lifetime. He’s a selfish little prick, but what makes him insulting to ‘normal’ men is his having the natural, internalized Alpha bravado so many AFCs wish they had. If you could bottle and sell this Alpha essence, you’d be rich beyond imagine.

Right about now all of those self-affirming preconceptions you had about Alpha-ness (that I told you to stow away before reading this) are probably yelling to be let out of the mental box you put them in. “,..but, but Rollo, how can you possibly think this arrogant douchebag kid could ever be an example of anything remotely Alpha?!” You’ll be pleased to know I fully empathize your outrage. You work hard to be a “better man”, you put in the self analysis, you paid your dues coming to terms with unplugging and reinventing yourself. You’re a success, Corey is fuck-up. Corey’s not a better Man than you are, however, he understands Alpha better than you do.

Alpha is mindset, not a demographic.

Alpha is as Alpha does, it isn’t what we say it is. There are noble Alphas and there are scoundrel Alphas, the difference is all in how they apply themselves. There’s a tendency to approach every “Alpha” argument from what a guy thinks is righteousness; ergo, his personal definition of Alpha is what appeals best to his sense of virtue. He earned his Alpha cred, played by the rules, and by God people (women) should respect that. However, the sad truth is that prisons are full of Alpha males who simply channeled their drive toward destructive and anti-social endeavors. There are plenty of examples of indifferent Asshole Alphas who you wouldn’t say are upstanding moral leaders at all, yet women will literally kill each other (or themselves) in order to bang them because they exude a natural Alpha-ness. Just as Corey does here. There are Alpha drug dealing gang leaders, and there are Alpha husbands, fathers and leaders of industry. It’s all in the application. Genghis Khan was Alpha as fuck, and a leader-of-men, but probably would be on most people’s douchebag list for that era. Here’s an illustration:

 

Guy’s like Corey infuriate men who have invested their self-worth in the accomplishments of what they think ought to be universally appreciated and rewarded. So when they’re confronted with a natural Alpha being undeservedly rewarded for brazenly acting out of accord with what they think the rules ought to be, they seethe with resentment. The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator. The conflict then comes from seeing his new definition of Alpha not being rewarded or even appreciated as well as a natural Alpha attitude and the cycle continues. Your respect (or anyone else’s) for an Alpha has nothing to do with whether or not he possess an Alpha mindset. 3 failed marriages and 100+ lays has nothing to do with his having or not having an Alpha mindset. There are many well respected betas who’ve never had a passing thought of infidelity, or may have 300 lays either with prostitutes or because they possess fame or stunning good looks and women come to him by matter of course.

The take home message here is that you are not Alpha because of your achievements, you have your achievements because you are Alpha. You possess a mindset you either had to develop or it came naturally to you. I constantly field questions from young men asking me whether some action or behavior they displayed to a woman was Alpha, or Alpha enough. The real answer is that Alpha behaviors are manifestations of an Alpha mindset. And just like Corey the Alpha Buddah, the introspect required to wonder if something was or wasn’t Alpha wouldn’t ever be a consideration enough to ask. You almost need to have a childlike understanding to really appreciate what Alpha really is. Kids get Alpha. Even the picked on, introverted, beta-to-be kid has a better understanding of Alpha than most adult men do because he lacks the abstract thinking required to rationalize Alpha for himself. Most men, by our socialization, and to varying degrees, lose this in-born Alpha mindset over time. The naturals, the Corey’s of the world, have a better grasp on it’s usefulness and repurpose it; either to their adulthood advantage or their detriment.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

263 comments on “Alpha

  1. Thanks for the post. This topic is definitely a source of much contention in the man-o-sphere.

    People want to believe that an alpha has to be a paragon of virtue, honor and integrity. A man who is a pillar of civilization and selflessly works for the benefit of mankind.

    An alpha is merely one who makes the gina tingle. He may or may not meet the above criteria.

    Few things better illustrate the need to control female hypergamy than the fact that women pine for guys like Corey W.

    Perhaps we need a new word to describe a man who is an alpha in the game sense of the word and also a benefactor of civilization?

    1. I’m a fan of this post. Especially the use of the Venn diagram, which highlights an important point: Alpha can be applied to good or ill ends. The correspondence between “assholes” and alphas is coincidental.

      A rough synonym of alpha is independence or self-sufficiency: the “aloofness” and “amusement” that attends “confidence” in one’s “mastery.” You can apply this personality package to social or antisocial ends, making the criminal mastermind, the war-veteran NCO, the layabout fuckup, and the suave PUA all equally alpha with very different motivations.

      Rollo is hitting on something even more important in seeking to define alpha. You have to think beyond two dimensions. There are too many variables to offer a straight-line description, other than the Potter Stewart technique of “I know it when I see it.”

      You can define a virtue like Aristotle or like Shakespeare. Either you mark it out in nearly impenetrable prose, which is dependent on a chain of definitions all the way down to first principles (creating a massive tome like the Summa or the Nicomachean Ethics). Or you can bring the virtue alive by example or artistry and then point to your work and say, There, what that guy has, that’s alpha.

      The classic example of defining, say, “courage” is the golden mean between two equally malignant vices, which are “rashness” and “cowardice.”

      Alpha is the golden mean between indifference (sociopathy/solipsism) and over-investment (beta obsequiousness/dependency). So rather than having a single opposite, like a two-dimensional virtue, alpha lies at the center of many opposites, like an interior focal point of a multi-dimensional sphere. Roissy gets at this when he says, “The opposite of love is not hatred, it’s indifference.” Both are opposites of love, which is a balance among many variables.

      Or, you can be Rollo/Shakespeare and refer to the “Alpha Buddah” in your midst and say — there, that guy, that’s what I’m talking about.

      Game blogs are interested in the sexual dimension of this independence, and so it is most concerned with the superficial appearances that might temporarily seduce the opposite sex. But the whole “inner game” movement, and posts like Rollo’s above, are about making appearances real, and broadening the alpha scope beyond duping gullible women. After all, the term alpha comes from pack dynamics, which are about social domination and only incidentally about sex.

  2. @samseau

    Roissy’s definition is a good default, as it avoids moralistic implications altogether and simply focuses on how attractive a man is to women:

    “[A man’s alphaness is defined by] how hot are the women he can attract, how strong is that attraction for him, and how many of those women find him attractive.”

    Still somewhat subjective, but it’s a starting point.

  3. Hate to say it but that douchebag dumbass cockhead IS alpha. And you can see the interviewer getting aroused, to the point is start launching shit tests, and all the air of indignation at the end. The guy only needed to throw a couple of playfully dominant sexual teasings there and she would have bursted in giggles.

    Still, the dude is like the worst example to show what alpha is about, because non-understanding people will fixate at all the wrong things. Is it the glasses, hair, peacock? is it the stupidity? Nope. Its the thread that ties all of those things together.

    So. The guy is alpha. Just not a good man.

    1. So what exactly is alpha then? I do sense some sort of an “essence” from watching Corey but I wish Rollo had provided some sort of definition and why woman find this so arousing. Is it the “I do what I want and I don’t give a fuck” attitude or what is it exactly?

      On a sidenote, I don’t see why so many people hating on the kid so much; calling him a douchebag or scumbag. I think he is very likeable.

      1. He carries himself with a chip on his shoulder, and is unreactive / unapologetic about it. He got confronted about his peackoking and the interviewer tried to shame him on it, and he didnt concede or really acknowledge it. He has a childish confidence and amusement that is independent on the external feedback. If anything, he takes the feedback in terms of “I love it and everyone loves it”.

        With 10% more dominance and teasing he would bang the interviewer.

        And he gets hated for that very same reason. He triggers indignation. See. The thing with alpha is it triggers the “who the fuck do you think you are?” in everyone. Keeping that frame and turning everyone else into saying “ok, you are the master” is the other half of it. That guy is very close.

        1. Will Rollo ever speak about how Alphas turn the “who the fuck do you think you are?” reactions around themselves to seize the frame and get to be the boss? I feel this is important to know. Guys like Corey ARE Alpha, I’ll give you that, but behaving like that is going to make you a lot of enemies. Sure, you’ll bang a bunch of girls, but in with such an attitude.

          Then again, maybe he’s one of those alphas that don’t overlap with the “Leader of Men”. I’m starting to see Rollo’s point.

          Great post. I’m waiting for the follow-up!
          And to whomever said he found Corey likeable, I do, too. He’s fucking cool.

          1. He´s a leader of some men, for sure. Any character like that will spawn a number of beta followers who want to imitate him and capitalize on the stuff he´s projecting.

            Give him a mic and a few grands for a music video and marketing and its a done deal.

        2. But see, really it’s the ‘everyone’ who hates on the alpha that is in the wrong unless he’s seriously hurting people. Betas have no sense of self and find their identity in the group, whatever the majority’s values are. No one should be persecuted for being themselves. That’s why some call these type of people ‘sheeple’.

    2. YOHAMI wrote: “And you can see the interviewer getting aroused….”

      No, you can’t. Detecting social cues that don’t exist is wish-fulfillment on par with masturbatory fantasy.

      I just watched it again. Where’s your evidence of “arousal”?

      It’s one thing for a man to possess the confidence that he is alluring and to proceed accordingly as if his assumptions were true. Fake it till you make it. It’s another thing to invent responses in other people to comport with a fictional script. Delusions of grandeur.

      The kid exhibits a couple of alpha traits that in isolation are good to observe for instructional purposes. But it’s fantastical to suggest he is dominating the conversation to the point of the woman’s arousal. The circumstances (separated by cameras, publicly broadcast, gotcha cross-examination mentality) probably make such a reaction all but impossible. Why pretend otherwise?

      The interviewer is indignant (if restrained) from beginning to end, at times lapsing into incredulity. The kid’s occasional deference to her authority (and the instinct to hide his face under sunglasses) says that he is a natural diamond, but still in the rough.

      I don’t see the point in making out this nascent alpha to be anything other than what he is.

      He deserves respect for running an effective defense — maintaining his frame in a potentially intimidating situation. And he gets admiration for doing it naturally. But he wasn’t exactly lighting up the scoreboard with offense, and you don’t win if you can’t score. Call it a tie at the end of regulation … against a heavily favored opponent with home-field advantage.

      1. Where:

        The interviewer keeps stumbling on her feet and reacommodating her posture, with a half eating grin, indignance, trying to bring the kid down, one shit test after another. Such power play, all of that, is how female arousal manifests when dealing with a jerk, just before the jerk breaks her.

        But the kid isnt dominating the interview nor taking advantage.

  4. Too often when guys see examples of alpha males, particularly douchbag alphas, they believe that they’re supposed to ape the behavior of the d.a. The guys then complain that they don’t want to be like that douchbag or that he can’t be a ‘true’ alpha.
    But the trick is to learn something from the alpha, not try to imitate him.
    I agree with Roissy’s definition of alpha and it’s funny how it ticks people off (especially women who don’t want to believe they could be attracted to anyone less than courageous and wonderful).
    These controversial posts are great.

    1. “Why MUST pussy only be a side effect?”

      Because when pussy is the holy grial, pussy chooses to go with somebody else.

      Because when pussy defines whats valuable, you end up with no value.

      Because when pussy sets the rules, you become a follower.

      Because when pussy is worth working for, it makes you work – instead of jumping on your lap when you least expect it.

      Because pussy wants to be your side effect, pussy doesnt want to be your goal.

      Because pussy IS a side effect.

      Because pussy comes easy when pussy is not the objective.

      Because pussy is looking, itself, for a big cock, and your cock is bigger when you´fe focused on other stuff other than pussy.

      Because investing 20% of energy on pussy brings 80% of the pussy, assuming you use that remaining 80% to work on your big cock.

      Because pussy has its own programming, and its programming is about to catch the real deal, and pussy is always bussy trying to taste and catch the best cock around, and the best cock is always at the top of each circle pussy can gain access to. So if you capitalize any of these circles or create your own, pussy will find you. In hordes.

      Because its easier to work on your cock and let pussy come, than chase pussy.

      Because when you chase pussy, it runs away.

      Because pussy only deserves a second place.

      Because your own life is more important.

      ————–

      Actually. Scratch that. This is not a “MUST”. You can do whatever you want. This is just common sense advice.

      Women are looking for your big cock. Use your energy to make your cock really big, instead of using it to chase pussy. Pussy doesnt like to be chased. Pussy doesnt like the pedestal. Pussy. Oh man. Pussy is so hungry.

      But other than this debate about what should be effect of what, of course, learn every trick on the book about how to deal with pussy. Learn to understand pussy, how to handle pussy and how to make pussy come. Because pussy has a different language. And pussy can and will get angry often if you miss the cues, and if you have a big cock and you have lots of pussy around, you better be prepared to deal with them.

      These hordes can do damage.

  5. I find Roissy´s definition misguiding. Defining alpha in terms of “attraction” is like defining water in terms of “it takes your thirst out”.

    I mean, sure, water takes your thirst out. But that´s not what makes it “water”. Taking your thirst out is somatic.

    1. Maybe because “alpha”, unlike water, has no existence in itself. Water is still water, whether you drink it or not. But an “alpha” who doesn’t strongly attract numerous hot babes… well he just ain’t no alpha.

      In other words alpha is it’s own effects, and nothing more than that.

      1. Eh, wrong.

        There are traits / behaviors that are alpha, beta, omega, etc. Your alpha/beta/omega status, or, your “nature” depends on which traits/behaviors you have and express.

        What you´re saying is that a water that doesnt cure numerous thirsty people aint no water. And eh, you are right. But the point stands.

      2. Actually, sea water is bad when you´re thirsty and it´s still water. So. You can mix a lot of alpha traits and enough of unattractive traits to make a tempting but bad cocktail.

        Stuff can be measured by its effects / face value but its unconducting to understand what stuff “is”.

        1. As you know, the origin of the alpha term is the observation of primates. Now did they identify the alpha by looking for the biggest/most beautiful/cockiest/funniest ape ? No. They looked for the ape who was humping all of the she-apes, and who the other apes backed down from. i.e. from the very start, the alpha concept referred to effects, not causes.

          Of course, you can correlate many characteristics/behaviour patterns with these effects, but at the end of the day, the alpha is defined by the effects, not the causes.

        2. And people didnt examine the molecules of water in order to get their thirst satiated. In one hand you have the nature of things and in other hand cognition of these things. What Im saying is that measuring something from the cognition side ONLY is misguiding.

          Water is not “what cures your thirst”. Curing your thirst is a an effect of it, and might vary between individuals. Alpha is not “what attract girls”, but attraction is an effect of it.

        3. Yohami, you seem to be forgetting that you are the one who made the water comparison, not me. My whole point is that alpha is not like water.

          I can see I won’t convince you, and hey, it’s only semantics anyway. Happy hunting.

  6. Awesome post.

    The thing that really came across in the video was just how unreactive Corey was.

    I’ve got to hand it to him. It would be hard not to react emotionally in one way or another.

    Laughter if you think the situation is absurd. Anger if you are on the defensive. Cringing if you are apologetic.

    The content of what he said didn’t matter. His affect display told the whole story.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_display

    1. johnnymilfquest wrote: “The thing that really came across in the video was just how unreactive Corey was.”

      He appeared unreactive because he was hiding under sunglasses. Look more closely. I detected the beginning of some natural stammers that he very impressively bulled through.

      There’s a tendency to reimagine what you see to make it fit your preconceptions of what you think you should be seeing. But objectively he left plenty to be desired. It’s like the unreliable witness phenomenon. What is and isn’t really there?

      Some things left out. I saw quick, clipped answers, apologies, playing to type, and the superficial non-conformism of his ridiculous appearance (which as often as not is a product of insecurity rather than confidence).

      He more than makes up for these quibbles by passing her rapid-fire, epic shit tests on a national stage. So don’t get me wrong, he is impressive, and better than 95% of his peers. But it’s not a totally flawless performance.

  7. The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator.

    One thing of interest I’ve noticed as more women get acquainted with the alpha/beta terminology, and participate on manosphere type blogs, is they seem particularly interested/vested in trying to define/redefine what it means for a man to be alpha, and furthermore it always seems to be done with an intent of virtue and duties being part of the alpha package. Not sure if you’ve ever ventured over to Dalrock’s blog but he has a bunch of female commenters who seem intent on redefining alpha to something that fits what I think you would characterize as the female imperative.

    The real answer is that Alpha behaviors are manifestations of an Alpha mindset. And just like Corey the Alpha Buddah, the introspect required to wonder if something was or wasn’t Alpha wouldn’t ever be a consideration enough to ask.

    Interesting point. If you have to ask, it isn’t and you aren’t. Question is how doe one reach that level. Depending on how one was raised, the beta stuff can run really deep…almost like a computer virus you can’t quite get rid of entirely. I wonder if for some (and I’d put myself in that category) the most you can get to is to overlay a bunch of new programming, code, patches on top of it. The virus will always be there but hopefully all the the new stuff can keep the day to day functioning of the system very efficient and keep the effects of the virus minimal.

    1. Mike,

      “Question is how doe one reach that level.”

      The same way you dont ever question if you can turn left or right and grab something. It´s an action, not a belief. You try it and do it enough and it becomes reality. When you have it as a reality, it can be taken away. You are “deluded” and fixated in a moment. It carries on with you. If you lose it, inertia sets it back to the center. The mind is always in that state actually, grabbing something. Even if you let lose it grabs something else (be it, emptiness or silence is still something). The trick is to try and get into the Alpha side of you so it becomes your first nature – your default self.

  8. There is one thing and one thing only in the PUA community that completely rubs me the wrong way, and that is the co-opted use of the term “alpha” to describe a guy who knows how to get laid.

    As yohami stated, alpha is a cause, not an effect. An alpha is a “Socially dominant individual”. Look it up in the dictionary. Roissy (or whoever used it in this context before he did) bastardized it by using it to describe a man who is able to lay an arbitrary number of women. Successful mating is nothing more than a by-product of being an alpha male.

    We now have books being marketed to younger guys telling them that they too can be an “alpha male” if they learn the secrets. No, you aren’t an alpha male if you learn how to get laid, you are a guy who learned how to mimic or borrow some of the behaviors of a true alpha male in order to get some low cost ass. While there is nothing wrong with maximizing your chances with the opposite sex through any legal means possible, to go around thumping your chest and proclaiming that you have mastered the art of being an alpha male is ridiculous to anyone who understands that pussy isn’t the only thing in life that can make a man happy.

    This reminds me of an interview I saw a couple of years ago with one of the Gracie brothers talking about how he gave up his involvement with the UFC because it had evolved from being a sport that was all about who was truly the best fighter in the world based upon ALL of the skills of the fighter, to a sport that awarded some guy the title based upon his ability to fight under a strict set of rules and criteria.

    If you want evidence of just how far off the PUA definition of alpha is, all you have to do is look at the discussions about whether or not Tiger Woods or Barack Obama are alpha. Despite what Roissy or others might have you believe, despite how much money one of these men might be forced to pay out in a divorce settlement or how one of them sits with a certain posture, I can assure you that both of these men are unequivocally more alpha that a hundred of us combined will probably ever be. To someone who has experienced firsthand what TRUE social status can do for a man’s lovelife, listening to someone try to construct an argument that these men who could bang endless streams of pussy on demand might not be “alpha” is like listening to a bunch of math geeks talk about how their intellect makes them superior to the members of the championship football team.

    And in case anyone is wondering my distaste for the term alpha being used in this way isn’t about me not fitting the definition. According to Roissy’s definition I am an alpha male. At the end of the day I am able to recognize that I am an alpha male in some social situations and not in others. If you read some internet blogs and learn how to bang 20 or 30 or 50 or however many chicks it doesn’t make you an alpha, it makes you a guy who learned how to bang x number of chicks.

    1. “As yohami stated, alpha is a cause, not an effect. An alpha is a “Socially dominant individual”. Look it up in the dictionary. ”

      That definition looks to me to describe an effect and not a cause.

      “At the end of the day I am able to recognize that I am an alpha male in some social situations and not in others.”

      Exactly. Because alpha is not something intrinsic to you, but an effect in certain social environments.

      I share your distate for the use of the word alpha, I think it should be reverved for monkeys and the like.

      1. What I meant to say was that pussy a byproduct of alpha behavior, not the determinant of it.

        Alpha isn’t intrinsic to anyone. It is ALWAYS an effect of social situations because the definition of alpha is “leader of a social group”. Most people wouldn’t argue that Clint Eastwood is/was an alpha male, but drop him in the middle of an aggressive tribe of primitive people who think he is the reincarnation of the devil and he won’t be getting any social cred from anyone, let alone banging the women.

        1. That´s like a massive shit test. If he stands there manly enough, some of the women might complot to free him and get some dick while they are at it.

    2. Good Luck Chuck wrote: “An alpha is a ‘Socially dominant individual’. Look it up in the dictionary. Roissy (or whoever used it in this context before he did) bastardized it by using it to describe a man who is able to lay an arbitrary number of women. Successful mating is nothing more than a by-product of being an alpha male.”

      Right on. The blogs are ironically sex-obsessed, even as they assert their “aloofness” from the powers of women. This contradiction tends to devolve any discussion of alpha into a celebration of mimicry rather than true transformation.

      The solution to this is to get one’s head out of the vag. Game is most applicable on a broad social context, and the sexual dynamics are at best ancillary. But don’t say this too loud: if you indicate there is a world above and beyond evolutionary rutting, you are suspected as uninitiated (ignoramus), ill-informed (feminist), duped and cowardly (beta), or insufficiently manly (mangina).

      The first commandment of Game 1.0 is, “The masculine imperative is defined exclusively by his relationship to (and therefore dependency on) the opposite sex.” It is a deeply concealed form of pussy whipping.

      1. I’ve always found this a very strange criticism of game. People on blogs devoted to seduction focus too much on seduction.

        But that aside, your idea of an alpha can be an alpha who is not good at seduction. So you can see how your idea is not as practical, for the purposes of seduction, as the idea that is used on blogs where it is understood that the main thrust of the discussion is how to be seductive.

        For the purposes of seduction there is a seduction purposed definition of alpha.

  9. Here’s something else for you to chew on.

    The idea of “vulnerabilty game” has been around for awhile now. Current wisdom tells us that in order to maximize our chances of getting laid, we are better off employing a majority of alpha behavior tempered with a small amount of beta behavior, which I would agree with. I have lost my fair share of sexual opportunities due to not having shown enough of a softer side.

    If certain behaviors make you “alpha”, how do you reconcile the idea that you have to use “beta” type behaviors to maximize your chances of getting laid?

    1. To all of your questions I have recommended that some people use a different term than alpha, for the useful PUA concept that is lately used and termed alpha.

      You can have any concept that you personally are happy with to mean alpha. That’s fine. As long as you can also hold the concept that PUAs use. Just give that a different name if that makes you feel more comfortable. Call it olpha.

      1. Exactly Xsplat.
        In the context of PUA forums, alpha is the man who gets the most and the hottest girls. This is not something that makes you a good or bad man.
        Why complicate this?
        Outside the PUA forums, you’re free to redefine the term alpha to your liking.

      2. Alpha does get the hottest girls, for sure.

        Why “complicate” it? because understanding what alpha is, and not just what its external effects are, can get you there faster.

        1. You, sir, understand the point that I am trying to make.

          The PUA community has turned “notches” and certain behaviors into some kind of measuring stick for masculinity. When the 13 year old internet geeks are talking about this or that being “alpha” you know that the meaning is getting lost.

          1. Relative to your use of the term alpha, the meaning may be lost and wrong.

            But if you just give it a different word, and forget that it was once associated with the word alpha, can the concept have any use? It is a practical concept?

            Imagine for a moment that on PUA boards we did use the word olpha. Does that PUA concept of olpha have any practical use?

          2. Well, girls dont give a fuck about semantics or the PUA community agreements either. Girls just want to fuck the most Alpha men they can find. If you want to fuck lots of girls, focusing on becoming Alpha is more productive than focusing on its effects. Just saying.

          3. But you can’t focus on becoming olpha unless you also focus on causing the effects. Because if unless you are causing the effects, then you are not olpha. If you are causing the effects, then your actions are olpha.

            In practical terms no one gives a flying fuck if we are alpha or not. We just want to cause the effects.

          4. I hear you saying that there is an essence of you that needs to be Alpha, and all the rest falls into place. You argue that focusing on the outward appearances fails to really cause the important substantive changes.

            That may, or may not be a useful way to look at things. Personally I think you can focus on the outward and the inward will eventually follow, due to the positive feedback loops causing you to internalize your actions as congruent with your personality.

            However it makes little difference if the inner must be worked on first or later. If the inner work doesn’t cause outward effects, the inner work is not working to become alpha.

            This is real world measurable attitude that causes real world measurable effects. Nothing is alpha unless it attracts women. The end.

          5. And everything that attracts women is (pua defined) alpha.

            Again – you can have any personal definition of what a REAL alpha is that you want. So then parse the notion that everything that attracts women is olpha.

            That is a useful mental framework to have, and allows people to communicate effective strategies.

          6. xplat, here is the whole point:

            Alpha is a set of traits and behaviors (core), those happen to be attractive (effect). Compare that to a tennis player. Technique, attitude and skill are the core. Winning matches is the effect.

            The basic notion of Alpha is that it´s unreactive and independent of the results. This is where the stuff breaks for PUA.

            If you measure Alpha by the results, if you go play the field CARING about the effects, you´re by definition in reactive mode. When you are reactive, you´re not Alpha, and thus, not attractive = no girls.

            You can say “but techinque and skills and attitude means nothing unless you win the tennis match” and you´re right. Without the effect, without winning, the frame is nothing. Unless its put out there and brings results, all you have is a pile of shit.

            The point is: having the core as the priority is a highway to Alpha, as opposed to measuring the core by the effects.

            The guy in the video is just doing his thing and plenty of unreactive. If he was doing that for the “effects” he would come up as fake. As fake, he would still get some effects, but not the same as if he was the real thing. I think the guy in the video is the real thing: he doesnt genuinely give a shit.

            If he only cared about the “effects” of not giving a shit, then he would give a shit, and he wouldnt get as much “effects”.

            I´ve been in the road enough to be able to tell the difference.

            Its not inner vs outer. Its inner > outer. The more you work on the core, the easier and more natural the effects. The more you care about the effects, the harder it gets. So. That.

          7. You can’t describe what that “core” of your is independently of describing the effects.

            If you have any core attributes that do not cause attraction from women, then they are not alpha traits.

            The reason you need to talk about effects is to keep the art of seduction a science. Without measuring effects, it’s just all abstract theory and talk.

            We refine through observing real world effects.

          8. You cant define a tennis skill that doesnt cause points either. Im not saying “dont measure effects”. Im saying defining Alpha by its effects ONLY is misguiding to get there. Already explained why.

          9. I’m sorry yohami, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I really don’t understand your functional point.

            PUAs talk about attractiveness triggers, and generally say that those skilled at manipulating these attractiveness triggers have a personality that is therefore called alpha.

            You are saying there there is a different personality that independent of being able to push attractiveness triggers, but that also happens to be able to push attractiveness triggers anyway? And you are saying that this is the real alpha?

            There is no distinction there. If you can describe ANY way to push the attractiveness triggers, through inner or outer technique – you are still talking about pushing attractiveness triggers. And if you are not talking about pushing attractiveness triggers, then you are NOT talking about pushing attractiveness triggers. You are not talking about traits that puas describe as alpha.

            Either it works to get girls wet, or it doesn’t. If it does, it’s alpha. If it doesn’t, it’s not. There is no technique that is not a technique. There is no being. Everything is technique.

          10. Xplat,

            Already explained the functional point about caring about effects and reactiveness and the frame and why one is easier and the other is harder. If you care about refuting what Im saying or something please address that.

            I agree with

            “You are saying there there is a different personality that independent of being able to push attractiveness triggers”

            No, Im saying the Alpha personality, if you define it by its effects only, you´re putting it harder to reach for yourself. Already covered why.

            “There´s no being, everything is technique”. Meh. We´re crossing the metaphysical here. Of course there´s a being: the one doing the actions. And the being has an identity.

          11. Yohami, you seem to be saying that becoming aware of the cause and effects of your actions detracts from your alphaness.

            That’s just silly.

          12. YOHAMI wrote: “Girls just want to fuck the most Alpha men they can find. If you want to fuck lots of girls, focusing on becoming Alpha is more productive than focusing on its effects. Just saying.”

            Best, pithiest description yet. Bravo.

            But be careful. Once you begin calling into question the received wisdom, The Fundamentalist Believers of Old Testament Game will crawl out of the woodwork to shout you down with the only instruments a bottom-rung evangelist has at his disposal: repetition and ad hominem.

  10. I agree with* your stuff that the effects are measurable and that Alpha triggers all the attraction stuff. Yes it does. But the point of Alpha is not to trigger all those buttons. Triggering is a result of, not the direct intention.

    Man this stuff should be Alpha 101.

    1. The point of learning seduction is to seduce.

      I could give a flying fuck how “alpha” I am.

      The point of a wrench is to turn nuts. It isn’t to be a great wrench.

      1. I get what you want and how you view this stuff.

        It is like a tennis player saying “I just want to win matches, I dont give a fuck about how good of a tennis player I am” though.

        See, the better you “are” the more you win. Already explained the point, plenty.

        1. If I’m understanding your position, it’s that not being outcome dependent raises confidence.

          My position is that you can be aware of all the workings and machinations of game to the finest detail without losing confidence.

          Awareness of how actions affect outcome does not translate into being outcome dependent and losing confidence based on outcome.

          If I’m groking your position, it’s that game is better when its internalized to the point of being subconscious and when these subconscious positions are not only about game.

          I’m saying that game is about game is about game, and it doesn’t matter if it’s subconscious or not, and it doesn’t matter if non-game concerns are happening or not. Effective seduction is what women perceive of as alpha, and if women are perceiving anything as alpha, it’s effective game.

          Look, you might say to yourself, “I’m really interested in aircraft design and managing a team of employees who build up a profitable airline”. You might not be trying to run game. But it’s perceived of as alpha.

          Anything perceived of as alpha, whether you intend it to seduce or not, is only categorized as seductive by the effect. If you were really interested in world of warcraft and effectively managed a team of game players, and this did not seduce women, those exact same skills and traits and internalized attitudes would not be alpha.

          It’s only alpha by the effect.

          1. Awareness is vital, never said anything against awareness.

            “If I’m groking your position, it’s that game is better when its internalized to the point of being subconscious and when these subconscious positions are not only about game.”

            No. Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there. Will you address what Im saying at all?

            “It’s only alpha by the effect.”

            Nope.

            Alpha is cause, never effect. If something is alpha by its effects, it is not Alpha at all.

            Check the dude in that video and what I have been saying about reactiveness etc. I already poured all of the data. n

        2. It is like a tennis player saying “I just want to win matches, I dont give a fuck about how good of a tennis player I am” though.

          but winning matches is the goal, and is the metric by which your ‘goodness’ is measured. if you can win the most matches, are you not good? if you think you’re a good player, but don’t win any matches, does it matter what you believe?

          few players win every single match they play, but the good ones figure out what they did wrong and leverage that information into future wins.

          1. No, winning matches is not the goal.

            Playing the game is the goal. Wining is a measure. But for Alpha, wining already happened. So the focus is to ENJOY it.

            Wining can only be the goal when you contemplate losing.

            Alpha frame 101.

  11. but winning matches is the goal, and is the metric by which your ‘goodness’ is measured. if you can win the most matches, are you not good? if you think you’re a good player, but don’t win any matches, does it matter what you believe?

    That’s the majority of the problem with the co-opted definition of alpha. It leads men to believe that they are playing for the prize and not for the game. If your sole focus is women and your sole determinant for being successful in life is how much pussy you can get, you are gonna miss out on a whole lotta other cool stuff.

    I am not against the PUA community at all. Matter of fact I think that all men should know and internalize the knowledge. The problem I have is with teaching men that they can find the holy grail by learning to talk a woman out of her pants. PUA’s would have you believe that there is no point in wasting your time with anything else when you can get right to the pussy. There is a whole other world of enjoyment out there that is yours for the taking when you embrace the idea that it isn’t all about the prize.

    1. i get what you’re saying.

      if you read a pua blog, of course it would seem that getting pussy is of prime (perhaps only) importance, because….it’s a pua blog. guys read such blogs to help them score more pussy. but that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s all they want out of life, any more than guys exchanging tips on a car forum/blog are only concerned about cars and nothing else.

      i personally have never gotten the impression that these blogs are trying to convince guys that getting a woman out of her pants is the holy grail. i just see them as a medium for information exchange. how the information is used is up to each participant. the public nature of the medium means that it will attract all types of participants, with different goals.

      1. Certainly there are benefits from following the wisdom on this blog that go beyond picking up women. Learning to be unflappable is an excellent skill in tense situations.

        But for the blog it’s better to have a narrow definition of alpha, as opposed to an overly broad interpretation that is open to self-serving tinkering by women (e.g. men need to man-up) or misinterpretation by well-meaning men (e.g. an alpha is always a strong, leader of men). The narrow definition keeps us all on the same page. We can’t even have a proper disagreement on tactics if we don’t agree on what the terms mean.

        Also, I have yet to see an alternative definition of alpha that is succinct and logical (again, for use in this forum).

        So, in the context of this forum, lets keep it simple so it can’t be subverted: Alpha is what turns on women.

  12. I didn’t get the impression that this kid was really that much of a douche. I don’t agree with what he did, but he did apologize. How many of you would let someone try to make an example of you on national TV when you’ve already fessed up? The interviewer tried to scold him and he stood his ground because it’s not even her business to do any scolding. Maybe i have a problem with authority because I (and I suspect most people here) wouldnt have bent over either.

    Off topic: If this kid is a decent promoter, which he seems to have a knack for, with some seed money he could rent out a park and make 20Gs on a benefit party or concert.

  13. I get the idea that some people have resistance to being defined by women, or judged by women.

    But that’s the setup. Women judge what they find attractive.

    It turns out that appearing to be unmoved by judgment can be attractive. But only within the context of social awareness and frame control. An electrical engineer unmoved by womens opinion of his apartment cluttered with used electronics can have all the aloof confidence he wants and it won’t be attractive.

    Women are the arbiters of what they find attractive. This necessarily means that those who want to be good at attraction must pay attention to and modify their attitudes and behaviors such that what they do attracts women.

    This chafes some people. But I don’t want to change who I am just so some women want me! I want to lead my life for me!

    That’s fine. Do that. But on blogs that deal with women you can’t get away from the fact that the real world is empirical and results are measured. If not caring what women thinks works, then that works. If in some contexts it does not, then in some contexts it does not. The only way to differentiate between what works and what does not work is by the effect.

    And men have been doing this carefully and scientifically and sharing their results, and we have a good idea now of what is attractive to women and what is not.

    No one is forcing anyone to be attractive. But that option is there for those who want to be. And yes, it is all about the outcome.

      1. I already did. Game theory covers being reactive very clearly and specifically. When you have the definition of alpha being “what women are sexually attracted to”, reactiveness is dealth with perfectly well. You don’t have to have a definition of alpha outcome independent in order to pass shit tests.

        You say “Alpha is cause, never effect. If something is alpha by its effects, it is not Alpha at all. ” which just doesn’t mean anything. Why is your alpha cause alpha? How can you know? It just is because it is?

        We only know something is green because we measure it as green. We shine light on it and see the effect.

        You worry too much about worry and judgement and awareness. Being charismatic demands social awareness. You say “Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there. ” but that is just proof by assertion. And it’s a meaningless assertion, because you have no way to define what is alpha to begin with.

        My system of thought is practical. Yours is meaningless and vague. You keep it that way deliberately in order to boost confidence, but that is not necessary.

        There is no primary alpha core that is independent of effect. And if there were, we could measure the effects, and so we may as well measure the effects. You prefer not to measure, so that the core does not lose confidence.

          1. There are two schools of thought regarding self esteem. There is the “you’re perfect just the way you are” school, which teaches that people have a core that is basically fundamentally good, and there is the school that teaches that you are good if you can produce good outcomes.

            I’m of the latter school.

            I believe that a greater confidence comes from the latter school.

        1. Anyway. More girls for me.

          So you are not outcome independent after all. You’re saying that your way to be alpha is more attractive.

          You keep missing the whole point dude.

          I’ve made every effort to understand what YOUR point is. Not THE point – YOUR point.

          I’ve quoted you in you in my replies, I’ve addressed your words and concepts. You have shown no effort to address my examples. I understand your point as clearly possible given your words – as I’ve made every effort to show. You are being obstinate and stubbornly refuse to even notice a thing I’ve said.

          The idea of alpha independent of the effects of alpha is an undefined idea divorced from empirical reality.

          1. @xsplat
            Yohami seems like a good guy, but he’s frustrated that his tortuous ideas of alpha aren’t accepted so he turns to ad hominem attacks.
            On other topics he’s been sound.

          2. Xsplat,

            Thing is you keep misrepreseting anything I say and arguing against figurative ideas that Im not presenting. In short, you´re doing strawman fallacy. Example:

            “The idea of alpha independent of the effects of alpha is an undefined idea divorced from empirical reality.”

            Yeah. But who is saying theres anything “independent” of the effects? not me. So who are you arguing against, what are you disagreeing with?

            In reality you havent even touched my argument. You keep beating the shit out of some non-present figure though.

            Seems like me questioning some PUA concept rubs you the wrong way. If thats the case, lets just leave like that. But if you genuinely want to argue and prove me wrong, at least address what Im saying, instead of fighting your mis-representations of what Im saying.

    1. Thats my quote and thats fine, and it means something different than the argument(s) you keep fighting against. What does it mean? already explained it!

  14. Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there.

    But who is saying theres anything “independent” of the effects? not me

    You aren’t saying anything, you slipper mofo.

      1. You are very comfortable with internal inconsistencies in your mental map.

        I I was going to talk to someone who refused reason and accountability I’d be trying to fuck them.

  15. Xsplat etc.

    So, PUA has defined Alpha as “what attracts women”. Good. Alpha does attract women. You can break down every action and every detail and make a comprehensive list about alpha, and then you can go and emulate it piece by piece and get similar, of not same results. Good? not arguing about that.

    What Im saying is this:

    Defining Alpha purely from a point of view of its results and effects, is putting it harder for yourself to reach the Alpha state.

    What Alpha state? well, a state or a being or whatever is out of your current handle of things, consider this:

    Mind has frames. What is a frame? a logical space where you operate. An identity. A narrative that tells your story. Your identity. What you consider the boundaries of your reality. Your ego. Your beliefs and projections. Your fears. Your limits. Cool? so, whatever you are, your current “frame” distorts whatever you perceive, and distorts whatever you act on, and pampers it with your frame. The how and why´s are subject for another debate.

    Lets just agree momentarily that the mind has states.

    What Im saying is that Alpha, Beta, Omega and anything in between are frames.

    You project your frame out there, and the world returns you the same you´re projecting. Cause and effect. Most of the time, you are the cause. In whatever case, the stronger frame dominates and conquers the weaker frame. When reality sets its frame on you, you´re his bitch.

    Alpha > Beta > Omega. If you put these frames to fight each other, the more dominant wins, right? So Alpha projects its dominance over the other frames, and the other frames go into reactive mode, reacting to Alpha´s proposition, and concede Alpha its power. And so on.

    So. What is the problem of defining Alpha as “what attracts women”? that, duh, attracting women is like 50% of the deal.

    But moreso, if you start recopilating and emulating what alpha does, with your current (beta or whatever frame), you´re just a beta doing tricks. And. IT WILL SHOW. Chances are you will just be jumping through hoops you set for yourself, and then whipping your own ass when you fail, and pumping your self esteem when you succeed. In other words, you will be punishing and rewarding yourself.

    Guess who punishes and rewards himself? not Alpha. Who tries so hard? not Alpha.

    Is self punishing and rewarding attractive? nope! trying hard attractive? nope!

    So whats attractive? Loving yourself unconditionally.

    Who does that? eh. Only Alpha can. And its a deluded thing for sure. It is also attractive as hell.

    Can you break that down, being your own thing, doing your own thing, the whole alpha archetype, the whole book, while at the same time expressing totally what you are, without masks or tricks, being “real”… if you are doing techniques, because you want the results from a different frame than the frame you have?

    In short, you can do some, but there´s not enough energy to sustain it.

    You cant do the whole thing. Your energy will run out. The building will be too expensive to maintain. When you get to the point most of the stuff you do is off-frame, when you start getting the results of the frame you are emulating… you´ll realize the law of diminishing returns already hit. The stuff you get… you paid so much already, and it doesnt even start to fill the gap you´re creating on yourself by being off-gap. You wanted love, sex, admiration, whatever? you might get a tiny bit of it, but in contrast of what you are paying for it, its a fucking broken deal. Soul sucking experience.

    So whats the solution?

    First to the problem, again:

    Defining alpha by its effects is counterproductive to get there: because the one who wants to get there, the current (beta) frame, is the one who has to be sacrificed.

    A curve:

    Defining success by the money only makes you want the money more, and makes you forget about all the mechanics that are useful to make money. And, you only want all that money because you are poor. So you ARE poor, right? thats why you CARE about money. Do rich people care about money as much as you? you probably care about money because you are hungry. You probably dont even understand what is being rich.

    And the point is that without understanding what is to be rich, all the stuff that has to happen, the frame where it operates, etc, including in some cases the hard work… without understanding all of that, whats the point? you want money. Because you are poor. And always will be. Unless the poor in you dies.

    So. The Alpha frame.

    Alpha is the top in the social chain. Alpha has abundance of everything. But Alpha is also responsible for everything, starting of himself. Alpha doesnt need anyone. But people look up to Alpha and deposit their attention on him. Alpha is the first to eat until he is satiated, and also the first to stand alert when enemies come. Alpha sets the rules. But Alpha is also responsible when things go bad. People will always, always, always, be testing Alpha to see if he is the real deal. But Alpha doesnt really care. Alpha is Alpha. Alpha is the master. When you challenge Alpha, he looks down at you like you are a child. Alpha is rich to the bone. If everything fails, at least you still have him and if he dies, its like your whole country has died. Alpha is the rule for every other man to follow. Alpha is a brute force, a brute arrow, that doesnt even try, that doesnt work hard, because its Alpha to the core, and whats left for him is just to do his thing, be himself, and rule the fucking world that spins around him, like thats what it was all designed for.

    And every behavior that exudes from this abundance, confidence, detachment, grandiosity, self delusion, is extremely attractive to women.

    Even the negative aspects of it.

    But women are also attracted to other things, example, not Alpha men. Women like drama and the only drama Alpha can generate, is to not reprocicate affection because he is busy with his abundance. Women like security and safety, and a lot of the time Alpha is not available. So, women have room for other frames. Women are extremely attracted to Alphas, but women are not Alphas and cannot live in the frame. The Beta frame is closer to women, and women can relate better to it, and are attracted to it, just not as much.

    So what´s the problem with defining Alpha by its effects? the Alpha frame I mean. The problem is that you are looking indirectly and wanting what the frame effects are.

    But the Alpha frame doesnt care about what its effects are. Alpha is just content of being a God and getting his way.

    So from the moment one, the moment you want to be like a God so you can have power, you are wanting that because you feel powerless. And since you feel powerless, you cant feel like a God, you cant incarnate the frame, so you cant get the results, and anything you get will be incomplete.

    But whatever. Im repeating myself.

    Defining the frame by its external effects is misguiding to get there. If you want to get there, better understand what the frame is.

    There are traits, behaviors, that are Alpha. The more traits and behaviors you have in yourself for good, the closer the frame is. The more you act and respond from an Alpha frame, the closer it gets. The trick, put it simply, is to drop whatever you are now. Including all your dreams and aspirations, the whole frame. A total self death. Put that down. Then create a new frame, the best Alpha frame you can and start living again from it.

    So. “Becoming” the frame rather than “procuring to obtain the results from a frame different than your own”. Become step by step. Understand your limits, fears, aspirations, crush all of that, then gain step by step, one trait at a time.

    Detachment? check. Burn your house if you have to.
    Sexual boldness? check. Go sex clubs if you have to.
    Free spirit? check. Travel for a year or two.
    Confidence? check. Get experience. Do everything enough times until its done.
    Love your life? check. Quit your job if you have to.
    Risk taker? check. Do really risky stuff. Until you love it.
    Abundance frame? check.
    Check check check. x100.

    Etc. Game as a lot of great transcriptions and stuff of verbal game and stuff. Tricks. All of that is useful. If you use that as a roadmap. Like. OK do I have problems doing this? what is the problem? then crush the problem. Until you are totally fine doing what you are doing, like its your first nature.

    What is the difference on what Im saying and just “skills?” that Im talking about frame and identity. Im saying, transform yourself. Rather than increase yourself with skills. Im saying, smash your frame and grab the Alpha frame. Rather than “improve your masks so you can get the results from the pros”

    Any body trainer knows what Im talking about, I guess.

    The emphasis of guys on “getting abs”, when they should really care about whole body training, diet etc. “Oh but I dont want to do diet and train four times a week, I just want the abs”. Yeah, good luck with that.

    So, if you grab the Alpha frame and move towards it, doing the skillset increases your energy rather than decreasing your energy – because what you are doing clicks with your frame and is synced to your reality.

    I remember when I was learning this stuff. I was supposed to feel abundance frame and be cocky and confident… but every day reality told me otherwise. I didnt like my job, etc. So, I quit my job, and positioned myself where I could love my life: oh good. Now I dont have to FAKE this part. I can take something else in.

    The easiest way to get the results of Alpha is being it. Not just “doing it”. The easiest way to get the Alpha effects is to be Alpha. Do you want everyone look at you like you are the ultimate shit? be the ultimate shit. Want every girl around to to be so so so so fucking attracted to you they talk about you in their sleep? then be fucking attractive. Be it.

    But the effects are that. Effects.

    You can measure Alpha by its effects. But defining Alpha by its effects is counterproductive if you want to get there. Because the definition will be pampered by your current frame, and because the stuff you will do will get you somewhere else.

    The guy in that video is Alpha. And he is not doing what he is doing because of the effects (or he would be reactive, which he isnt). If you try to get to where the guy is, by caring about the effects, you´ll get somewhere else, somewhere between fake and wannabe and tryhard, maybe. Maybe.

    1. I get the impression that if I reword what you say you’ll accuse me of mis-representing you.

      We already understood that you believe that acknowledging a goal leads you to think that you have a poverty mentality of a person who has not reached the goal.

      You are advocating a confidence trick of “Loving yourself unconditionally. ” Of deciding that you are already alpha.

      That’s a technique with a goal in mind, like any other. You are just trying hard to be unconscious of the goal.

      Perhaps you can see how this idea of yours

      So whats attractive? Loving yourself unconditionally.

      relates to self esteem. I was not misrepresenting you and talking about something completely different when I said

      There are two schools of thought regarding self esteem. There is the “you’re perfect just the way you are” school, which teaches that people have a core that is basically fundamentally good, and there is the school that teaches that you are good if you can produce good outcomes.

      I’m of the latter school.

      I believe that a greater confidence comes from the latter school.

      Do you see how I am rewording what you say in a way that is not mis-representing you?

      Self love and self esteem are analogous and similar. There are two schools of thought on self esteem and self love. Love your self and esteem yourself unconditionally, or conditionally.

      I posit that self esteem that is based on real world measures is stronger than unconditional self esteem.

      1. No brother. For some reason, you keep doing it. Whats going on?

        “You are advocating a confidence trick of “Loving yourself unconditionally. ””

        No. Im saying the tricks dont make the cut.

        “I posit that self esteem that is based on real world measures is stronger than unconditional self esteem.”

        If you do read what Im saying, Im saying do the real stuff and change your life so the frame is sustained by reality (the effects and feedback)

        Really, its like you´re debating someone else bro. WTF.

        You keep pointing like Im saying something like this:

        “ehhh you dont need the results or effects! all you have to do is to believe inside of you, it doesnt matter if you dont get the results, if you believe it, you are!!! its so easy”

        But Im not. What Im saying is actually more hardcore than yours, because Im saying effects and skills are not ENOUGH.

        You need the skills and effects PLUS A THOUSAND.

        Dude. But. Whatever. I am frustrated now.

        1. Even directly quoting you frustrates you.

          Your ideas are all a jumble. No matter you are frustrated.

          You don’t have to be intimidated by knowing what you goal is and having a goal. Knowing of a goal and having a goal is not at odds with being confident that you are a man who can attain that goal.

          If you still think I’m arguing with someone else, read your own disjointed ramblings.

    2. YOHAMI: Your words are clear and you are correct. Most of the repetitive misunderstanding is willful: a will to misunderstand to avoid honest acknowledgment of a superior point. Very common in rhetoric. This is Socrates vs. the sophists. The dialectic doesn’t always end with a clear acknowledgment that an interlocutor’s mind has been changed. It’s largely their own problem.

  16. I generally agree with what yohami is saying but there are a couple of points that I want to expand on:

    1) I agree with roissy in that mimicking alpha traits can become a self fulfilling. Indeed some of this can be internalized to the point where simply aping the behaviors of a high value male will give you value.

    2) Saying “So whats attractive? Loving yourself unconditionally.
    Who does that? eh. Only Alpha can. And its a deluded thing for sure. It is also attractive as hell.”
    implies a couple of things. First it implies that somehow there is a way to be above caring what other people think. We are humans, and as social animals we will ALWAYS to some extent judge ourselves and determine our actions based upon what others think of us.

    Secondly, it implies that alpha is still some kind of nebulous state of being. We agree that the idea is to actually BECOME the alpha. My contention is that alpha is completely situational. You will never be THE alpha. Even THE alpha isn’t always THE alpha. Your goal should not be to become some kind of transcendental being. The goal is to become the TRUE definition of alpha- the leader of a social group or groups.

    3) “And the point is that without understanding what is to be rich, all the stuff that has to happen, the frame where it operates, etc, including in some cases the hard work… without understanding all of that, whats the point? you want money. Because you are poor. And always will be. Unless the poor in you dies.

    That’s the best quote you have posted so far. I have been rich and I have been relatively poor, and it has given me a perspective on money that most people don’t have. More importantly though, it has allowed me to apply those lessons to other areas of my life, this being one of them.

    —————

    The PUA mindset revolves around becoming “alpha” or more correctly mimicking alpha traits to attract women. The problem with this is that if you want to be TRULY attractive to the opposite sex you are going to have to do it from the top down, much as you are proposing. Sure, you can go out there and “demonstrate higher value” to women to get laid, but at the end of the day you are going to get smoked out unless you can back it up at some point in the future. PUA’s will argue that if any one woman disappears you can just go out and get another one, but how much energy do they waste constantly trying to chase something that is running away?

    I have been that guy who throws a party in my MTV cribs style pad where I have multiple girls fighting over who is going to sleep with me that night. It’s what I call “auto game”, and any man who experiences it for one day will instantly understand.

    When value exudes from patterns and routines that you run on women you are begging for pussy. When value exudes from your pores the pussy begs you.

    1. Yes, Alpha is situational and context dependent. You are running an internal script, your mind has a frame, but it´s only as good as the situation you are in – and the effects you produce.

      I can relate to the MTV cribs and the girls fighting over you.

    2. No, Good Luck Chuck, you can’t disagree with Yohami, because he didn’t say that.

      No matter what position he takes, that’s not what he really means.

      He doesn’t really mean that practicing alpha traits while at the same time working on the externalities of your life won’t eventually make you internalize alpha attitudes.

      He doesn’t really mean that alpha traits are not accurately described as traits that are seductive to women.

      His position is unassailable. Because he means something else.

    3. And of course he doesn’t even mean it when he implies that merely holding the wrong definition of alpha can completely fuck up your oh so tenuous alpha frame.

  17. “The working definition for PUA purposes of an alpha traits are traits that sexually excite women”

    “No, that can’t be right, because I’m cool, whether women like me or not! In fact it’s this very attitude that makes women like me!”

    Men don’t need a hampster like that.

  18. It’s funny how poor logicians find their way to boards that discuss attraction to proclaim that the art of attraction shouldn’t be only focused on what women are attracted to.

  19. King A said:

    “Right on. The blogs are ironically sex-obsessed, even as they assert their “aloofness” from the powers of women. This contradiction tends to devolve any discussion of alpha into a celebration of mimicry rather than true transformation.”

    I have enjoyed roissy’s blog since I first discovered it a few years ago. But there is one thing that I hate about it- the culture that celebrates the chest thumping and posturing of these low SMV men who have transformed themselves into “alphas” by copying the behaviors of true high value males.

    That’s all game is. Mimicking the body language, the confidence, the “essence” of a man who has some combination of the golden triad- wealth, status, and power.

    This Game 1.0 crowd you speak of still have the training wheels on. They are so blinded by the prospect of easy pussy that they buy into the idea that if you can learn to talk women out of their panties that there is no need to pursue any of those banal, soul sucking activities like building status and wealth. What they fail to realize is that although pussy is the ultimate reward, it is not the only reward. They fall into the trap of pussy being their primary or only source of affirmation. As much as they want everyone to believe that their “abundance” frees them from the prison, they are as much or more slaves to the poon than anyone.

    At the end of the day we all want to get laid. Some of just tend to have a little more realistic idea of where it needs to fall on the scale of priorities.

    1. I don’t know what gives you that impression. I don’t get it.

      If you were to spend time on a blog that spoke of ice cream, would you also get the impression that people there were ONLY concerned with ice cream and were unable to appreciate or persue anything other than ice cream?

      Of course the discussion is focused. It’s a themed blog.

      And people very often do discuss building up other ATTRACTIVE qualities, such as income and passions. As you well know.

      1. There have been numerous references over the years by bloggers and commenters alike to the idea that the pursuit of wealth/status/power is a waste of time if you know game. They look down on people who pursue these things and use them to their advantage in the mating game.

        1. Yes, of course there is some disagreement, but there is also plenty of discussion about wealth and many people very specifically talk about how it’s helpful.

          Do you need monolithic agreement about every specific non-verbal game trait in order to feel happy about the endeavor?

          Inner game as well is discussed plenty.

          On game blogs, every aspect of attraction is discussed – not just verbal emulation of alpha traits.

          But you know this.

          I hate to let myself say something that might come across as disrespectful, but what choice do you leave me but to believe that you are involved in a sexual strategy of cock blocking.

    2. xsplat wrote: “If you were to spend time on a blog that spoke of ice cream, would you also get the impression that people there were ONLY concerned with ice cream and were unable to appreciate or persue anything other than ice cream?”

      If the ice cream blog regularly discussed politics and science and race and economics, as Roissy’s does, and then sought to connect it to ice cream then we would be able conclude something about the author’s opinion on the vital importance of ice cream. I won’t bother citing the many posts (and many more comments to posts) that assert a blind faith in the idea that sex is the engine of the universe — because the sentiment is repeated so frequently there (and here on Rollo’s blog as well). Heck, I’m sure the research-inclined could even dig up an xsplat confession to that effect.

      This is largely a function of age. When you’re sowing your wild oats the experience is the profoundest of your young life, and you seek to attribute all truth to that experience. Then you mature and realize there is more in the world than dreamt of in such a philosophy, and it’s not all the consequence of a waning libido. (Do men’s libidos ever really wane, by the way, or is deterioration assumed and therefore treated as a fact of age?) Roissy in his honest moments admits to this, but he has a reputation to uphold as well.

      Now add in the frat-boy mentality that is suspicious of anything above a young pledge’s sexual liberation and enlightenment, and you get monomaniacal, elementary-level discussions of the nature of man.

      PUAs have accidentally split open a very deep but very narrow truth, and they are plundering this vein of gold with all they know how for instant gain. Jolly fucking good on them!

      Game 2.0 is strip mining, applicable across the entire field of social and cultural dynamics beyond the catclaw ruts of rutting. We are not satisfied with a handful of nuggets or a flash in the pan. We’ve come with heavy machinery to get the whole fracking motherlode. Flirting with bizarre evo-psych constructs and libertarian (and racial) paranoias that so infect the discussions beyond pick-up is like using tinker toys on a granite mountain. Amateurs and dabblers have limits.

      Look, like anything else, men are baited by pussy. What is the phenomenon that has always driven the bleeding edge of technology, from printing to telephony to videotapes to the internet? Access to VAGINA. Same with Game. Men happen upon a hidden truth of the social dynamic — and a truth that has been purposely concealed for a century — their first inclination will be to use this found wisdom to lever some pussy. And in this free-for-all early-century cock carousel? To obtain access to the street-magic that gives the schlubbiest of schlubs the possibility of harem? It is a very, very special interregnum for us early adopters, before the rest of the culture catches up to all the Pretty Lies Perishing.

      You can either go with the rapidly developing revolution, be at the forefront and lead it, or you can be the aging frat president, who still wears the styles that were fashionable in his prime, pretending the entire world hasn’t passed you by. At a certain point you will become an object of fun. Without even noticing.

  20. I can’t help but get the impression that some people are against knowingly and deliberately and specifically being charming and seductive, and are against talking about it and are against teaching it.

    Full stop.

    1. I don’t know where you might have gotten that idea from any of the comments on this thread. I am all about using every advantage available. But I am also about experiencing some of the other finer things in life. Trappings of the life of a a TRUE alpha male. You can learn how to pretend to have high sexual market value and have to start the cycle all over again as soon as your current woman figures you out, or you can invest in actually acquiring high sexual market value and watch the money and pussy fall into your lap.

      There is some crossover between the two but not as much as the Game is God crowd would have you believe.

      1. And on game blogs people argue against becoming a genuinely high value male?

        I’m not seeing it.

        Would you go on a blog about kittens and tell people to get a life and stop focusing so much on kittens?

      2. I’ve had this discussion before. What aspect of themed blog don’t you understand or are you against?

        If you are against the theme, you are against the theme.

        You know what a theme is – right? So why are you against the theme?

      3. I can’t help but get the impression that some people are against knowingly and deliberately and specifically being charming and seductive by any means other than becoming a high value male under the definition that meets their personal view of their self, and are against talking about it and are against teaching it.

        They think that themed blogs that discuss any other tactics should not exist and at least not have that theme.

  21. or you can invest in actually acquiring high sexual market value and watch the money and pussy fall into your lap.

    The incontrovertible fact that money is an attractiveness trigger is barely and weakly argued against on PUA blogs. The argument against it is not that money is not an attractiveness trigger, it’s that for some people with some sexual strategies in some parts of their life don’t really need it. Which is true.

    Is this all about where your style of alpha rates in the world?

    Does it irritate you that women go for men who you deam low value?

    Well, if they do, then of course men will learn how to get women that way.

    And if they don’t, PUA blogs would not exist.

          1. I don’t have enough respect for you to read more of your blog.

            You are welcome to read my blog if you like.

            But I don’t see that your thinking process could be of any value to me. Or anyone.

          2. No, I’m serious, your thought processes don’t warrant more attention. Your ideas are disjointed and jumbled and full of internal contradictions. Plus you don’t respond to alternate ideas. It’s pointless to discuss things with you, because you don’t meaningfully engage.

            If you have something on topic to say that is of value, say it here, and I may respond.

  22. This was a thought provoking post, Rollo; especially the Venn diagram. Thank you for all of it.

    Being the man I am (focused on results benefiting personal improvement), I find it most efficient to simply define Beta and avoid such behaviors.

    In short:

    I never worry if my choices are Alpha – on occasion, I worry if they’re Beta.

    This may seem like splitting hairs but, in practice, I find it a path much more readily traveled.

    I doubt myself far less than I would otherwise.

    Also, the real issue at heart (regarding female relations) is that Beta behavior is nothing more than communicating (in femme-speak) that one is NOT a viable candidate for sexual congress.

    Heterosexual women are programmed to want to have sex with males. And, like the children they often seem to be, they need to be TOLD what to do. They are built with a deep-seated desire for externally imposed direction and supporting encouragement.

    The reason they loathe Beta’s so very much and with such vitriol is that they are being led (again, in femme-speak) to go against everything they WANT to do.

    Were I to tell a Man to do something against his very nature I would get – in terms of results – the same effect.

    That’s my 2¢ on the matter.

  23. Jesus Christ….how about we all just whip our dicks out and measure to see who gets the final word on alpha.

    Frankly, I think it was nailed right here:

    The classic example of defining, say, “courage” is the golden mean between two equally malignant vices, which are “rashness” and “cowardice.”

    Alpha is the golden mean between indifference (sociopathy/solipsism) and over-investment (beta obsequiousness/dependency). So rather than having a single opposite, like a two-dimensional virtue, alpha lies at the center of many opposites, like an interior focal point of a multi-dimensional sphere.

    Seems to me that arguing over and over whether alpha is alpha because it is alpha or whether it produces some measurable, empirical outcome (gets girls, gets pussy, generates attraction) is almost a sort of mental masturbation “how many angels dance on the head of a pin”. I think the point which I fully agree with is that the emphasis should NOT be on getting pussy. It should be acting, interacting, verbaliiziing with the right frame, right body language, etc. Getting pussy just flows from that.

    I think the money, status, etc. just confuses the issue. Is Mark Zuckerberg an alpha? Really? When I was bouncing, I worked with a guy who didn’t have shit besides his motorcycle who was probably the most alpha guy I’ve ever met in my life. Would he be the same level of alpha in a tuxedo cocktail party discussing modern art? Probably not. So yeah, alpha is contextual.

    In terms of achieving the conventional “trappings of success”, someone should do that if they want that FOR THEMSELVES. I think the problem is a lot of guys want that stuff because they think that stuff will get them laid. I think the counterargument which I think is right is that having Game will get you laid just as easily if not easier then rolling up to the club in your Porsche, and it is a helluva lot cheaper so pursue that stuff because you want it for you, not to get laid.

    1. It should be acting, interacting, verbaliiziing with the right frame, right body language, etc.

      And how can you have a meaningful and useful consensus of what is “right”, unless it is measurable against the real world of outcomes?

      And why would you want to?

      Don’t you realize that game blogs are about game, and what the purpose of game is?

      Or do you think PUA blogs are about being the best person you can be?

      Why are people against having a goal and getting it done? Why MUST pussy only be a side effect?

      1. I trade financial markets (stocks, futures, options, etc.). One of the things that took me the longest to internalize (years) was to focus on the process of correct trading, not the final profit/loss of an individual trade. In fact, you can do the right thing and lose money and wrong thing and make money on an individual trade.

        If you read interviews with any of the great traders, guys who have made millions or even billions like a Paul Tudor Jones, they all say focus on doing the right thing, not making money. Making money flows naturally if you trade correctly. You either get this or you don’t. But you can’t obsess on making money instead of using the right process to trade.

        I think what some have been saying here is getting pussy/getting laid is the wrong focus for “being alpha”. Being alpha precedes the getting pussy part. That said, I don’t think a person can just imagine up in their head their own personal fantasy of alpha, and for example if they can’t pull redefine alpha to suit their own circumstances.

        1. I think what some have been saying here is getting pussy/getting laid is the wrong focus for “being alpha”. Being alpha precedes the getting pussy part. That said, I don’t think a person can just imagine up in their head their own personal fantasy of alpha, and for example if they can’t pull redefine alpha to suit their own circumstances.

          Getting any particular pussy is a focus that can detract from game.

          Getting pussy in general is not.

          There is nothing about having a goal that is incompatible with holding an alpha frame.

          But you know that. In fact it’s what you just said.

          Internalizing an alpha frame is covered completely well within the framework of being attractive to women.

          You don’t need to bring in anything else.

          Because an alpha frame is attractive to women, there is nothing about having a goal of being attractive to women that detracts from having an alpha frame.

      2. Mike C wrote: “One of the things that took me the longest to internalize (years) was to focus on the process of correct trading, not the final profit/loss of an individual trade.”

        Most illuminating and most apt metaphor yet. Perfect.

        1. And yet without the underlying motivation to make money, he’d never have the incentive to learn that skill of trading.

          Without the underlying motivation to get chicks, many a great guitarist would never have picked up the guitar.

          1. “Which as I’ve repeated and repeated and repeated” x100

            Try reasoning between these repetitions though. There´s an argument on the table.

  24. “Why MUST pussy only be a side effect?”

    Because when pussy is the holy grial, pussy chooses to go with somebody else.

    Because when pussy defines whats valuable, you end up with no value.

    Because when pussy sets the rules, you become a follower.

    Because when pussy is worth working for, it makes you work – instead of jumping on your lap when you least expect it.

    Because pussy wants to be your side effect, pussy doesnt want to be your goal.

    Because pussy IS a side effect.

    Because pussy comes easy when pussy is not the objective.

    Because pussy is looking, itself, for a big cock, and your cock is bigger when you´fe focused on other stuff other than pussy.

    Because investing 20% of energy on pussy brings 80% of the pussy, assuming you use that remaining 80% to work on your big cock.

    Because pussy has its own programming, and its programming is about to catch the real deal, and pussy is always bussy trying to taste and catch the best cock around, and the best cock is always at the top of each circle pussy can gain access to. So if you capitalize any of these circles or create your own, pussy will find you. In hordes.

    Because its easier to work on your cock and let pussy come, than chase pussy.

    Because when you chase pussy, it runs away.

    Because pussy only deserves a second place.

    Because your own life is more important. Putting yourself first will make you happier.

    ————–

    Actually. Scratch that. This is not a “MUST”. You can do whatever you want. This is just common sense advice.

    Women are looking for your big cock. Use your energy to make your cock really big, instead of using it to chase pussy. Pussy doesnt like to be chased. Pussy doesnt like the pedestal. Pussy. Oh man. Pussy is so hungry.

    But other than this debate about what should be effect of what, of course, learn every trick on the book about how to deal with pussy. Learn to understand pussy, how to handle pussy and how to make pussy come.

    Because pussy has a different language. And pussy can and will get angry often if you miss the cues, and if you have a big cock and you have lots of pussy around, you better be prepared to deal with them.

    These hordes can do damage.

    1. YOHAMI wrote: “Because investing 20% of energy on pussy brings 80% of the pussy, assuming you use that remaining 80% to work on your big cock.”

      This combined with trader Mike C’s testimony above explains the origin of the term, “Big Swinging Dick.”

      Great, great book.

  25. You guys have already agreed that an alpha frame is attractive. So there seems to be no disagreement that alpha traits can be described accurately as traits that are attractive to women.

    You just don’t want to be consciously aware that alpha traits are attractive to women, and don’t want to know if some traits are not attractive. Because you just want to “be yourself”.

  26. “Being alpha just coincidentally happens to match up 100% with having traits that are sexually arousing to women, but if I’m aware of this it will destroy my ability to hold an alpha frame”

    Well done guys.

    1. So close! here:

      “Being alpha just coincidentally happens to match up 100% with having traits that are sexually arousing to women, but if MY ONLY GOAL IS TO BE SEXUALLY AROUSING TO WOMEN, this it will destroy my ability to hold an alpha frame”

      Perfect.

      1. Did anybody anywhere ever say or imply that those interested in being charming and seductive should not have or do not have other interests and goals?

        Is there anything incompatible with having the goal of getting pussy and getting pussy? Is there anything incompatible with with having the aim of being charming and being charming?

        I think you don’t really get the whole logic thing.

        1. And did anyone say being “aware” was a problem? you´re the one with a beef against an imaginary enemy here bro. I checked your blog, you are ok guy and not a crazy fucker. I liked your entries from some years ago. For some reason, though, you are arguing like some religious crappula against non existent religion haters. Like you were in the middle of manboobz fighting with some rain of human spit. You´re not. Relax dude.

          Nobody here is hating game, at least not today. I have my contempt for PUA but the discussion is not even about that.

          I said this: defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there. Got it? its a simple line. Now you can disagree with it, thats welcome. But if you are to disagree, at least be in the same page and disagree with a counter argument. Are we on the same page finally? this:

          “Being alpha just coincidentally happens to match up 100% with having traits that are sexually arousing to women, but if MY ONLY GOAL IS TO BE SEXUALLY AROUSING TO WOMEN, this it will destroy my ability to hold an alpha frame”

          Is that something you agree with? or something you dont agree with?

          1. “Being alpha just coincidentally happens to match up 100% with having traits that are sexually arousing to women, but if MY ONLY GOAL IS TO BE SEXUALLY AROUSING TO WOMEN, this it will destroy my ability to hold an alpha frame”

            You never answer any of my questions, so I see no reason to answer yours.

            But I’ll be generous.

            I disagree with you. It is possible to have in the moment the only goal being to sexually arouse a woman, and to sexually arouse her.

            And in general it is physically impossible to have that as your only goal in life.

            There is nothing whatsoever incompatible with that goal and holding an alpha frame.

            Of course no one is advocating it as the one and only be all and end all of existence. I never did. You never did. No one ever did.

            It’s just not a problematic goal.

          2. “It is possible to have in the moment the only goal being to sexually arouse a woman, and to sexually arouse her.”

            Yes, it is possible to have, at any moment, the only goal of arousing a woman, and arousing her. But that wasnt the question.

          3. That wasn’t the question. I answered something else because I said “in the moment” instead of in general.

            Bullshit. I answered your general question. I said that your question is meaningless because no one can in general have that as their aim all the time.

            Look, it’s simple. Wanting to get laid and knowing how to do it does not get in your way. Being alpha in order to get laid is fine – it won’t stop you from knowing how to be alpha or from being alpha.

          4. “That wasn’t the question. I answered something else”

            Yes, thats what you did.

            “Wanting to get laid and knowing how to do it does not get in your way.”

            Wanting to get laid and knowing how to do it doesnt get in your way, thats correct. Thats not what we´re discussing though.

            “Being alpha in order to get laid is fine”

            Nope, logic crumbles there.

  27. I think what some have been saying here is getting pussy/getting laid is the wrong focus for “being alpha”.

    Is it imcompatible with “being alpha” to have as part of your motivation to be alpha to realize the positive effects of being alpha as being attractive to women?

    In other words, can an alpha want to be alpha in order to attract women?

    1. “Is it imcompatible with “being alpha” to have as part of your motivation to be alpha to realize the positive effects of being alpha as being attractive to women?”

      Wanting women is compatible with being alpha, and compatible with the driven of being alpha. Its a big chunk of it. The presence of women pushes the competition.

      “In other words, can an alpha want to be alpha in order to attract women?”

      Theres nothing wrong with wanting to attract women. It only becomes “wrong”, with quotes, when thats the sole motivation to be alpha -> it clashes with the attributes that make alpha attractive in the first place.

      Short answer, no. Long answer, women are part of the motivation.

      1. You can have any idea of “to be alpha” and motivation for it that you want.

        I don’t care if I’m “alpha” or not. It means nothing to me.

        I care about attracting and manipulating women.

        Your alpha means nothing to me.

        And my interest and ability in attracting women in no way gets in the way of achieving that.

        This is a purpose specific interest.

        I have no interest in your vague notions of alpha. I could care less about that idea.

        The whole reason to talk about alpha, is ONLY to talk about attracting women.

        That is the purpose and goal. There is no other purpose and goal. You don’t need any other purpose and goal.

        If something is attractive to women, and you want to have that, then get it.

          1. You have a platonic notion of alpha as a thing. I have a functional notion of it of a thing that does something.

            My reason to use the concept is functional, and only functional. It has meaning only in relation to the function.

            I use the word as part of a toolbox of tools to do a specific thing.

            I mentioned from the beginning. The concept, from a PUA point of view, is useful as a tool. This is why people use it. As a tool.

            If you have ideas about being the uberman and following interests that don’t relate to being attractive, that is fine. Do that. But let people have a concept that means olpha.

            Just let people have and use that concept.

            It’s a tool, and only a tool.

            Olpha.

            It’s a functional idea used ONLY to perform a function.

          2. “My reason to use the concept is functional, and only functional. It has meaning only in relation to the function.”

            Thats fine. Alpha (not Olpha) is functional too. Just not functional about getting women “only”. It has other functions, other roles, and it stars with roles/functions amongst men and the men ladder and hierarchies. Alpha translates to dominance, resources, power, power, power. And ultimately it expresses through behaviors / traits. But its all 100% functional. In my personal case, Alpha is allowing me to do greater stuff than the people around me, and makes me really privileged. So, it isnt just a romantic thing. If I make it big, its going to be not because of my inner and born traits or faculties, but because I developed Alpha. Alpha opens every door out there. Functional. Very.

            “If you have ideas about being the uberman and following interests that don’t relate to being attractive, that is fine. Do that. But let people have a concept that means olpha.”

            Yeah, Im on my way to Uberman. Along the way, women jump on my lap. So when I see other guys trying to get laid, hey, Im generous see?. If anyone want to make getting women easier for themselves, they might try the Uberman road. But its not for everyone. You can use what works for you.

            “It’s a functional idea used ONLY to perform a function.”

            No beef with that.

          3. And of course every aspect of your Alpha that is attractive to women is by definition olpha.

            Every aspect of your Alpha that is neutral or not attractive is not olpha.

        1. The whole reason to talk about alpha, ****is ONLY to talk about attracting women.****

          That is the purpose and goal. ****There is no other purpose and goal.**** You don’t need any other purpose and goal.

          OK. Thought experiment.

          So in your world, if an all powerful magic genie made all the women disappear and the population was 100% men, you believe the concept of alpha would lose all meaning and distinction. In a world with no women, there is no difference between the alpha and non-alpha? Is that what you are saying?

  28. To me, yes.
    I care nothing about having status among men.

    OK then. I think we just identified the key point of disagreement. The diagram above has something about “leader of men”. But yeah, I think what you are talking about is olpha. Alpha is something else I think more along the lines of what Yohami and I are thinking of. Olpha, alpha. Go for whichever works for you.

    1. This is why I entered the conversation suggesting a different term.

      People have specific attributes in mind when they say alpha.

      But seduction is not always about those attributes.

      Seduction needs a term that means all the qualities that women are attracted to, and how they are displayed attitudinally.

      Seduction requires that term.

      It is already currently social convention to use the term alpha for that. I’m sure you don’t disagree. That’s how it is commonly used and generally accepted to be used.

      The concept needs a word.

      So put aside your idea of alpha, when you want to join in on the discussion where people use the word alpha. They don’t mean what you mean.

      They mean olpha.

      Now we can get on the same page and talk about how to seduce women.

      1. The easiest way to seduce women is being an attractive high value guy and let them fight for you. You put the effort on being that high value guy, they put the effort of jumping on you lap.

        The other way is to go on each one individually and convince them you are one they would like to fight for. Then strong legs for running when the shitstorm comes.

        1. “being an attractive high value guy” = being attractive to women = having and displaying the traits that are attractive to women = olpha.

          1. Nope, because all of the rest of the stuff about status among men, hierarchies, power, and the behaviors / traits that those imply, are all attractive.

            You can have some of the behaviors and traits and learn how to do that, but, without the day-to-day reality to back your behavior on, its a hard thing to do. Been there done that. Hard work.

          2. I don’t see how or where or why you are disagreeing with the definition of alpha traits being the traits that are attractive to women.

            Draw two circles. In one circle put all the traits that are sexually attractive to women. Label that circle olpha.

            In another circle put all the traits that you consider alpha.

            Do the two circles coincide 100%?

            If not, what is different between the two circles? Where do they not overlap?

          3. “I don’t see how or where or why you are disagreeing with the definition of alpha traits being the traits that are attractive to women.”

            All the Alpha traits are attractive to women. What I´ve been saying is that Alpha are really about other things, and happen to be attractive to women as a side-effect. So if you want to be Alpha (not Olpha), which includes men dominance leadership and the whole koolaid, having the objective as being attractive, as the main motivator, isnt a good motivator for Alpha (as opposed to Olpha)

            “Do the two circles coincide 100%?”

            The circles coincide 100%. But having pussy as your main drive is not one of the attributes of the circle. Women are not attracted to that specific trait. When that trait is the predominant one, it sabbotagges the whole crusade.

  29. Now we can get on the same page and talk about how to seduce women.

    But that isn’t everyone’s singular objective. I’m not reading this blog and commenting “to seduce women”. I’d go to fastseduction.com for that. Rollo can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the scope here is a bit broader than “to seduce women”. I think here we are trying to learn more about being alpha not olpha.

    1. Ok, relating then.

      This blog is about relating with women, and on all the blogs where alpha is used in relation to relating with women it is primarily used in the context of and for the function of talking about relating with women.

  30. Yohami

    The circles coincide 100%.

    Great! Then we’ve agreed that the definition of alpha traits are the traits that are attractive to women!

    Phew!

    That took a long time!

  31. Do the two circles coincide 100%?
    If not, what is different between the two circles? Where do they not overlap?

    You JUST got done telling me that being a leader of men doesn’t matter to olpha because “you can’t fuck them and they smell wrong”. So right there, is one thing where they don’t overlap.

    1. Oh come on. From the get go I put into the circle as the very definition all traits that are attractive to women.

      You asked me personally if I would care about being a leader of men, if being a leader of men no longer attracted women.

      Personally, no, I would not care.

      That doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that as an attractive trait to women.

  32. Frank became rich because of motivation A.
    Bill became rich because of motivation B.

    Frank worked out and got his body into tip top condition for motivation A.
    Bill did the same for motivation B.

    Frank learned a wide variety of social skills for motivation A.
    Bill learned a wide variety of social skills for motivation B.

    Cindy comes up, and meets Frank and Bill. Oh, Bill! I’m not attracted to YOU! You have all the traits I’m attracted to for the wrong reason!

    Frank! I love you!

  33. Bill, because you know exactly what you want and are going after it directly, instead of indirectly, you are a complete fake!

    Frank, because your motivation was not aimed at the goal, only YOU can get the goal! Me! Because you refused to be conscious that I was your goal all along, I may be your prise! Hooray for unconscious motivations! Consciousness will only get in your way and hamper your progress!

    I can only love a man who doesn’t try to be attractive on purpose, but is attractive for any other motivation other than being attractive.

    I love men for their motivation, not for their money or fame or social skills or body or fucking ability. I love the real inner man. That’s what really counts to me!

  34. “The easiest way to seduce women is being an attractive high value guy and let them fight for you. You put the effort on being that high value guy, they put the effort of jumping on you lap.
    The other way is to go on each one individually and convince them you are one they would like to fight for. Then strong legs for running when the shitstorm comes.”

    Exactly.

    When you experience what it is like to have women begging for a piece of you instead of having to spend hours each week collecting phone numbers and dealing with flaky bitches, you will know. The universe opens up and exposes all of its secrets. You go from being a victim of hypergamy to being its beneficiary.

    I have been watching Entourage reruns on Spike. All of the guys in the crew get laid, but it is Vince (the famous actor) who is banging waitresses in closets ten minutes after meeting them.

    You don’t have to be an actor who gets paid $10million per film. ALl it takes is having SOME kind of social status. That’s why guitarists in shitty indy bands do well.

    1. At least you aren’t saying that if your motivation to get social status was pussy then it wouldn’t work.

      But at the same time I don’t see how you are saying anything that hasn’t been noticed and agreed with a million times on any pua board.

      They just also talk about other methods.

      Which apparently is somehow or other distasteful to you, even if you can’t quite put your finger on why without sounding ridiculous.

  35. xsplat: look up the term casuistry.

    Here, I did it for you:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuistry

    Yohami and Mike C and Good Luck Chuck believe the actual is superior to the mimic, both in essence and in effect.

    You alternate between arguments. At times you claim the actual alpha and the alpha mimic are distinctions without a difference. And other times you claim the that actual alphaness is irrelevant outside of sexual conquest (which you back up by repeated references to the focus of pick-up blogs, which is sexual conquest).

    The only real disagreement between you and them boils down to your priorities: pussy is the the only conceivable reason to discuss alphatude on a site like this, just as kittens on kitten sites or ice cream on ice-cream sites. Your protest has been noted. We beg to differ.

    But what’s amusing to us is the self-appointment pew-patrol vibe of true-believers like you, as though anyone who brings up his interest in game beyond the applications of pick-up are anathema and must be rigorously debated into acknowledging the One True God, Pussilaya.

    I am absolutely with Good Luck Chuck with regard to the limits of Roissy’s Peterpanism. It just gets old, and precocious initiates inevitably begin wanting to move up from the kid’s table. Roissy is doing yeoman’s work, like a brilliant high school coach who has a great track record of getting his rough-hewn ghetto kids into top academic colleges. There is a certain virtue to mastering the basics so well that you can bust thousands of men out of their betatude. None of us have what he has. But it’s still just the basics. And many of us are ready for grad school.

    They show Mr. Holland’s Opus on a loop at Le Chateau.

    1. Complete nonsense.

      Where does the circle not coincide 100%, and in what way does having the motivation to be attractive stop a person from internalizing an alpha frame.

    2. If you have a concept of alpha that does not coincide 100% with the concept of olpha, please explain with concrete examples and details.

      And then great – congratulations for having a different concept. Which as I’ve repeated and repeated and repeated is FINE!

      My point is that it is pragmatic and useful and a tool to have for a purpose the concept of olpha.

      You are welcome to any idea of alpha that you want.

      But no, that’s not good enough for you. The very idea of olpha to you is an idea that gets in the way of being a real man. Because the motivation is wrong.

      He he he. Crazy anti sex wackos. If you want sex as a motivation to learn something, that something is therefore tainted with impure thoughts.

      1. What the fuck is an “olpha”?

        You can’t make up words and treat them as sufficient arguments.

        Your indignation is clouding your thinking. Who has time for to correct for your weird and random outbursts? I’m amazed at Yohami’s stamina.

    3. Oh ya, and I can’t wait for you to come up with an example of how the olpha can’t get the same women that your alpha can, with detailed examples of why.

      I’m anticipating more nonsense, but surprise me.

    4. For the purposes of attraction, an attraction based concept of alpha is sufficient.

      That’s my premise and if you want to argue against my idea of alpha/olpha, argue exactly against that.

  36. “Oh ya, and I can’t wait for you to come up with an example of how the olpha can’t get the same women that your alpha can, with detailed examples of why.”

    Women are attracted to the leader of the men´s group, the most valuable guy in the room, the guy every other man looks up to, the man every other man wants to (or dreams to) challenge. Being that man = Alpha.

    You said you dont care about that part… so you tell me.

        1. You use an attraction based definition of alpha to argue that using an attraction based definition of alpha is not accurate.

          You’re just dumb.

          1. No. This is not a definition based on attraction:

            “the most valuable guy in the room, the guy every other man looks up to, the man every other man wants to (or dreams to) challenge. Being that man = Alpha.”

            But attraction what girls feel when they see that guy.

            So, answer please. How is Olpha going to generate the same level of attraction as that guy.

          2. It’s pointless to talk to you yohami. Simple logical statments elude you. You are a man without the faculty of rationality. I’m done wasting my time with you.

  37. King A said:

    “There is a certain virtue to mastering the basics so well that you can bust thousands of men out of their betatude. None of us have what he has. But it’s still just the basics. And many of us are ready for grad school.”

    You need to start a blog brother.

    I don’t want to come off a a braggart or a blowhard, but I always feel like I am one step ahead of the prevailing wisdom. This whole masculinity movement has evolved over the past decade. Stuff that I see roissy and others posting today I was writing about two or three years ago and getting chastised for it.

    Here’s a prophecy for you.The last domino to fall will be the one that defends American women and tells men that they are bitter, misogynistic losers if we refuse to accept their terms.

    Mark my words.

  38. King A

    What the fuck is an “olpha”?
    You can’t make up words and treat them as sufficient arguments.

    For the purposes of attraction, an attraction based concept of alpha is sufficient.
    That’s my premise and if you want to argue against my idea of alpha/olpha, argue exactly against that.

    I’m not arguing against your idea of alpha. You can have any definition of alpha that you want.

    I’m supporting the current usage of alpha on PUA forums, and in supporting it suggested the new use of a new term, in order to avoid battling over what alpha really means. You can have alpha mean whatever you want.

    The term used on pua boards is a tool, and only a tool, not a thing. Current usage is used for a purpose – not for a definition of a thing.

    So if you want to argue against that usage, argue against this and only this:

    “For the purposes of attraction, an attraction based concept of alpha is sufficient.”

    If you refuse to do that then fine, as I’ve said a hundred million times – you can have any definition of alpha that you want.

    Don’t bother seeing if my concept is functionally valid and lacking in internal contradiction. Go with your gut and refuse my concept any validity, irrespective of logic and reason.

    And assume that only your concept is allowed to exist.

    Even if I label my concept with a different name, and tell you 100000 times that this concept is NOT the same as your concept.

    I’m NOT debating what alpha means with you. Is it possible for that to sink in? Can that register in your synapses? No?

    I’m positing a different concept (that co-incides with current usage on PUA boards) that means something different than whatever you want alpha to mean.

    If you want to disagree with my concept, you must show how it is logically inconsistent. You can not compare it to your concept, as your concept is DIFFERENT. You can’t say that my verb “to open” is not a valid concept because you have a different concept which means “entrance”. Is my verb meaningful and useful? Great.

    In order to avoid this debate over whether your term is correct usage, I sidestepped it altogether. Debate me on if olpha is a useful and meantingful term for the use that I have defined for it. That’s it. You can have whatever meaning you want for alpha. Apparently I must mention that 1000,000,000,00000000,0000000 times before your synapses can register it.

    Olpha means ALL traits that are sexually attractive to women, including traits that men don’t necessarily hold IN ORDER to be sexually attracted to women. This includes of course being a leader of men. It includes fame, wealth, and power. And good looks. ALL of it.

    The concept of olpha (or, interchangeably, the concept of alpha when used on pua boards in a pua context) is that “for the purposes of attraction, an attraction based concept of alpha is sufficient.” Whatever is sexually attractive is labelled alpha, and this is a sufficient definition for the purposes of learning attraction and manifesting attractive behaviors. ALL of them. Including being a leader of men, or whatever you can imagine that is attractive.

    1. Who’s dropping the ten-paragraph posts on us now?

      xsplat wrote: “I’m supporting the current usage of alpha on PUA forums…

      That is nonsensical. Alpha is a borrowed term from a much older concept, a concept your interlocutors are trying to reestablish around the smaller context of sexual conquest.

      Your forced neologism reminds me of the nerdish taxonomy of Vox Day, who was too cool for the three-part alpha-beta-omega distinctions and had to expand them into a dozen categories, like Gamma and Sigma and Lambda and all kinds of irrelevant, inexplicable, confusing jargon that nobody uses except him.

      We don’t have any difficulty keeping the concepts separate without assigning them special little wordflakes. You do. Your further difficulty is refusing the possibility of applying the truths of game more broadly into a social or political dynamic, which leads you to your own personal confusions that nobody cares about much less shares.

      “I’m NOT debating what alpha means with you.”

      Take your sophistry to the Platonic dialogues then. There you will learn that the very most basic requirement for communication is a mutual agreement on definitions. Otherwise we are all speaking our own private languages past each other, holding fast to preconceptions without ever subjecting them to the test that demonstrates their veracity.

      1. I take it that you are granting that the concept of olpha is meaningful, useful, and logically consistent for the purpose defined.

        Your concept of alpha, in case you didn’t notice, must logically be a limited subset of olpha. Certain attractive traits are valued above others, and only those subset of attractive traits get to be labelled as “real alpha”.

        Of course PUAs discuss amongst themselves about internalizing alpha traits, and about gaining skills and money and a strong body and all other external alpha traits. So it’s not like you have some grand new idea about being real versus being fake.

        But your “real” alpha is a subset of olpha.

        And that’s fine by me. You can have any definition of alpha that you want.

  39. I don’t see what’s so evil about this Corey guy. He had a party, it got out of control, he didn’t actually do any of the vandalism. And he said he was sorry he just wasn’t willing to grovel and humiliate himself. I expected him to be way worse than he was in that video by the description.

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  43. It looks to me the same as if one would define the “winner mindset” as the one that makes you “win”. This is called an adhoc definition.

  44. Rollo, I agree with the fact that alphaness is amoral. But if every man in the world would start to behave pure alpha without any concern in moral, our society would turn into chaos.

    Would you agree in that alpha mindset should always be supported by a “constructive moral” layer?

  45. PUA’s get women through their own efforts and playing on women’s weaknesses. For Alphas, women come to them naturally.

  46. I thought the kid was hilarious. Actually surprised to see that some really did take you naming him “alpha” as an affront.

    And I can relate to having the “alpha” suppressed by conditioning. You mentioned your background in psychology, and it made me wonder if you would have something to say on my situation. I feel like my transition from Iraq back to the civilian world, namely the therapy I went through for my PTSD, did the most to kill my inner alpha.

    After about of year of one night stands after returning home from Iraq, I finally agreed to enter an exclusive relationship with one of the girls I bagged, and one of her stipulations was that I start therapy. What’s fucked up is that the more progress I made in therapy, the least attractive I was becoming to my gf, and the more problems it was creating in our relationship. The ending of that relationship is actually what prompted me to start looking into game, and it wasn’t until then that I realize that, while it helped make my PTSD manageable, therapy buried my alpha.

    It’s taken a while to undo, and I’m still not back to where I used to be…

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  48. Sometimes alpha is simply the knowledge that you don’t have to do what a bitch (or any authority) says.

    “Oh, you thought since you have me on the air and you’re a well spoken, accomplished, older, attractive woman, you could order me to take off my glasses before I apologize? Uh, No.”

    Go, take a good hard look at your self..

    Uh, I have.. so has everyone else. and they love it. LOL

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  51. Im married – never was a huge player when single. But Ive always been pretty selfish, blunt,cocky , headstrong and never really cared what others thought about me or what I did. Needless to say when I was single, there were many instances where I was literally jumped by women. Getting laid was easy. Reading this article it now makes perfect sense.

  52. I have encountered the term `alpha male` in social animals like wolves. It’s basically a leader of the pack, who gets to mate any female he wants. National Geographic actually did a revealing documentary about a not-so-typical black wolf in Yellowstone who, over the course of his lifetime, had a great number of offspring with multiple females, by not being the alpha of the group. He was kind of an outcast who charmed a group’s females and get them to follow him. He eventually did became a leader of his own pack in his later years. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pIeKyYqTfw).

    My definition of an alpha is a man with a strong personality, is a leader of other men. Doesn’t take shit from nobody, and carries himself with confidence and a light dose of cockiness.

  53. This is great. Thank you for sharing. It reminds me of that comment from a girl “Real men would do this…” – Response: “Well, then I’m not a real man.” – You do what you want, when you want, and no-on else’s ideas even remotely come into it.

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  55. Now…let’s see.

    Assuming that dressing yourself like a gay, wearing a nipple piercing and speaking shit just because one is seen as “cool” by the society’s weak standards, one’s wealthy, has a lot of fag buddies who support every crap that drools out of his mouth is … Alpha behaviour??

    So…so wrong, people.

    Please, Rollo, please… Don’t put Genghis Khan in the same class as this rich Corey looser. The great mongol Khan would cut off your head, drag your corpse tied to his horse and take your wife and children as slaves.

    Being an Alpha is, first and foremost, being the “leader of the pack”. An Alpha is a guy who knows how to lead and rule over the social “pack”. He does what is best for the group. He doesn’t dress like a clown because “society says it’s cool” Society defines what is cool based on what the Alpha wears, not the opposite (at least it would be so in an healthy society – not this decadent, Beta/feminist/gay-friendly lobbie world we live in).

    An Alpha is a man who can take everything bad that the world throws at him. Even if forced to get on his knees, he will inevitably rise up and fight back, no matter the odds. That’s what Genghis did. That ‘s what an Alpha does. I don’t know if Genghis wore a nipple piercing or not, but I bet he didn’t dress like a gay Boys-Band singer.

    Want to see if Corey is indeed an Alpha? Have him get involved in a fight in front of lots of strangers. If Corey is an Alpha, even if he loses he’ll return to have his way. But most likely party-boy Corey will just run away back to his rich parents, crying, never to be heard from again, until he reappears, half-bald and fatter, married to a frustrated slut who’ll be sucking their mexican gardner.

    Alphas assume their actions and take responsability for them. Betas just want to have their selfish fun. Even if “fun” means having to marry a 40 YO Milf with kids who has been kicked from from the “cock-carousel”.

    And – please – no more “Alpha means having what women want” bullshit. Even if I was the Betaest Beta in the World of Betamax I’d just need to have 500$ in my pocket and I’d be inserting my penis in the ass of a Grade-A hot babe in less than 24 hours.

    1. Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic.

      Look past the appearance. Look past the attitude that runs counter to your sense of right & wrong. Read the essay again. I’m not saying the guy is what anyone should aspire to, just that Alpha isn’t what we want it to be.

  56. Alpha is following the beat of your own drum. Alpha is having a deep understanding of society and reality: be it inherently so or be it learned strictly through philosophy. With this understanding of society the alpha male rejects its notion, and chooses if he will be civilized or if he will rebel, but the choice is his alone: no influence by anyone shall be leave their mark upon the alpha male. He acquires information and sorts out the useful from the nil all for advantageous purposes.

  57. Read somewhere Korey is doing well, his own home, a missus (maybe wife i forget). Im thinking its social engineering rewarding the Alphas to improve the gene pool. Just a thought, maybe paranoia.

  58. i been beta my whole life when it came to females i cared about. i was raised by a single mother who hated men and that included me. my affirmation never really came by her unless i was a “good boy”. even then it was superficial and very short lived.
    now in my adult life its been bullshit. seems like my life mission has been to find the acceptance from women that i never got from my mom.
    i have no problem w women being attracted to me. its the ones i really like are the ones that i end up being a “son”. to.
    i can’t be either way. either i care, or i don’t. either i fuck em over w no real investment, or get attached and shattered at her littlest tantrum or comment.
    i hate this part of me. i honestly think i have a good chance of bringing out the staying alpha in me bc i already understand the beta torture.
    a lifetime of setbacks should’ve made me blow my brains out by now but im so hungry for more so i know im a fighter.
    i never had a real man to lead me growing up. those days are gone now and i have to be what i never had.

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