Alpha

The Alpha Buddah, Corey Worthington.

What I’m about to type here is not going to make me any new friends. I know because any discussion of what constitutes Alpha characteristics in a Man always becomes clouded by the self-perceptions of how well we think we align with them. As I’ve covered in prior postings, the ‘community’, the ‘manosphere’, the new understanding of gender relations that’s picked up momentum for the last 12 years has always generated it’s own terminologies for more abstract concepts. The danger in this is that these terms lack real, universal definition. For purposes of illustrating a concept these terms are usually serviceable – we have a general understanding of what makes for a ‘Beta’ or a Herb, or a man who falls into a ‘provider’ mentality. Even ‘Alpha’ in a specific context is useful as an illustrative tool, when the subject isn’t directly about ‘Alpha-ness’. It’s when we try to universally define what constitutes Alpha that the sparks start to fly. So before you continue on reading further, think about what you believe makes a guy Alpha. Got it in your head now? Good, now put all of that aside, purge that from your head, and read the next few paragraphs from the perspective that you don’t know anything about Alpha.

I was first introduced to the Alpha Buddah courtesy of Roissy and this post “Umm, sorry?” You can go ahead and read this from the Chateau’s perspective, and I think the analysis is pretty good. I call Corey the Alpha Buddah not in the hopes that men will aspire to his almost Zen like ‘being’ in Alpha, but rather to provide an example of Alpha in it’s most pure form. He literally IS Alpha, unclouded by pretense, afterthought, or conscious awareness of any influence that could have a hope of prompting introspection about his state.

Corey Worthington is a piss poor example of a human being, but he’s a textbook example of Alpha. I could use a lot of adjectives to describe this kid, but “beta” wouldn’t be one of them. What’s funny, and a bit ironic, is this kid has probably never come across Mystery Method or “the community” or even heard of ‘peacocking’ and he gets naturally what millions of guys pay small fortunes at PUA seminars to acquire over the course of a lifetime. He’s a selfish little prick, but what makes him insulting to ‘normal’ men is his having the natural, internalized Alpha bravado so many AFCs wish they had. If you could bottle and sell this Alpha essence, you’d be rich beyond imagine.

Right about now all of those self-affirming preconceptions you had about Alpha-ness (that I told you to stow away before reading this) are probably yelling to be let out of the mental box you put them in. “,..but, but Rollo, how can you possibly think this arrogant douchebag kid could ever be an example of anything remotely Alpha?!” You’ll be pleased to know I fully empathize your outrage. You work hard to be a “better man”, you put in the self analysis, you paid your dues coming to terms with unplugging and reinventing yourself. You’re a success, Corey is fuck-up. Corey’s not a better Man than you are, however, he understands Alpha better than you do.

Alpha is mindset, not a demographic.

Alpha is as Alpha does, it isn’t what we say it is. There are noble Alphas and there are scoundrel Alphas, the difference is all in how they apply themselves. There’s a tendency to approach every “Alpha” argument from what a guy thinks is righteousness; ergo, his personal definition of Alpha is what appeals best to his sense of virtue. He earned his Alpha cred, played by the rules, and by God people (women) should respect that. However, the sad truth is that prisons are full of Alpha males who simply channeled their drive toward destructive and anti-social endeavors. There are plenty of examples of indifferent Asshole Alphas who you wouldn’t say are upstanding moral leaders at all, yet women will literally kill each other (or themselves) in order to bang them because they exude a natural Alpha-ness. Just as Corey does here. There are Alpha drug dealing gang leaders, and there are Alpha husbands, fathers and leaders of industry. It’s all in the application. Genghis Khan was Alpha as fuck, and a leader-of-men, but probably would be on most people’s douchebag list for that era. Here’s an illustration:

 

Guy’s like Corey infuriate men who have invested their self-worth in the accomplishments of what they think ought to be universally appreciated and rewarded. So when they’re confronted with a natural Alpha being undeservedly rewarded for brazenly acting out of accord with what they think the rules ought to be, they seethe with resentment. The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator. The conflict then comes from seeing his new definition of Alpha not being rewarded or even appreciated as well as a natural Alpha attitude and the cycle continues. Your respect (or anyone else’s) for an Alpha has nothing to do with whether or not he possess an Alpha mindset. 3 failed marriages and 100+ lays has nothing to do with his having or not having an Alpha mindset. There are many well respected betas who’ve never had a passing thought of infidelity, or may have 300 lays either with prostitutes or because they possess fame or stunning good looks and women come to him by matter of course.

The take home message here is that you are not Alpha because of your achievements, you have your achievements because you are Alpha. You possess a mindset you either had to develop or it came naturally to you. I constantly field questions from young men asking me whether some action or behavior they displayed to a woman was Alpha, or Alpha enough. The real answer is that Alpha behaviors are manifestations of an Alpha mindset. And just like Corey the Alpha Buddah, the introspect required to wonder if something was or wasn’t Alpha wouldn’t ever be a consideration enough to ask. You almost need to have a childlike understanding to really appreciate what Alpha really is. Kids get Alpha. Even the picked on, introverted, beta-to-be kid has a better understanding of Alpha than most adult men do because he lacks the abstract thinking required to rationalize Alpha for himself. Most men, by our socialization, and to varying degrees, lose this in-born Alpha mindset over time. The naturals, the Corey’s of the world, have a better grasp on it’s usefulness and repurpose it; either to their adulthood advantage or their detriment.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Dan Fletcher
Dan Fletcher
9 years ago

Thanks for the post. This topic is definitely a source of much contention in the man-o-sphere. People want to believe that an alpha has to be a paragon of virtue, honor and integrity. A man who is a pillar of civilization and selflessly works for the benefit of mankind. An alpha is merely one who makes the gina tingle. He may or may not meet the above criteria. Few things better illustrate the need to control female hypergamy than the fact that women pine for guys like Corey W. Perhaps we need a new word to describe a man who… Read more »

samseau
samseau
9 years ago

All those words and still no universal definition of alpha. Sorry, not a fan of this post.

King A
King A
9 years ago
Reply to  samseau

I’m a fan of this post. Especially the use of the Venn diagram, which highlights an important point: Alpha can be applied to good or ill ends. The correspondence between “assholes” and alphas is coincidental. A rough synonym of alpha is independence or self-sufficiency: the “aloofness” and “amusement” that attends “confidence” in one’s “mastery.” You can apply this personality package to social or antisocial ends, making the criminal mastermind, the war-veteran NCO, the layabout fuckup, and the suave PUA all equally alpha with very different motivations. Rollo is hitting on something even more important in seeking to define alpha. You… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

Because game blogs never mention internalizing an alpha frame.

Issac Jordan
Issac Jordan
9 years ago

@samseau

Roissy’s definition is a good default, as it avoids moralistic implications altogether and simply focuses on how attractive a man is to women:

“[A man’s alphaness is defined by] how hot are the women he can attract, how strong is that attraction for him, and how many of those women find him attractive.”

Still somewhat subjective, but it’s a starting point.

YOHAMI
9 years ago

Hate to say it but that douchebag dumbass cockhead IS alpha. And you can see the interviewer getting aroused, to the point is start launching shit tests, and all the air of indignation at the end. The guy only needed to throw a couple of playfully dominant sexual teasings there and she would have bursted in giggles. Still, the dude is like the worst example to show what alpha is about, because non-understanding people will fixate at all the wrong things. Is it the glasses, hair, peacock? is it the stupidity? Nope. Its the thread that ties all of those… Read more »

Nas
Nas
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

So what exactly is alpha then? I do sense some sort of an “essence” from watching Corey but I wish Rollo had provided some sort of definition and why woman find this so arousing. Is it the “I do what I want and I don’t give a fuck” attitude or what is it exactly?

On a sidenote, I don’t see why so many people hating on the kid so much; calling him a douchebag or scumbag. I think he is very likeable.

Rollo Tomassi
Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago
Reply to  Nas

I’ve got a post coming up about this.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  Nas

He carries himself with a chip on his shoulder, and is unreactive / unapologetic about it. He got confronted about his peackoking and the interviewer tried to shame him on it, and he didnt concede or really acknowledge it. He has a childish confidence and amusement that is independent on the external feedback. If anything, he takes the feedback in terms of “I love it and everyone loves it”. With 10% more dominance and teasing he would bang the interviewer. And he gets hated for that very same reason. He triggers indignation. See. The thing with alpha is it triggers… Read more »

House of Jacques
House of Jacques
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Will Rollo ever speak about how Alphas turn the “who the fuck do you think you are?” reactions around themselves to seize the frame and get to be the boss? I feel this is important to know. Guys like Corey ARE Alpha, I’ll give you that, but behaving like that is going to make you a lot of enemies. Sure, you’ll bang a bunch of girls, but in with such an attitude. Then again, maybe he’s one of those alphas that don’t overlap with the “Leader of Men”. I’m starting to see Rollo’s point. Great post. I’m waiting for the… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago

He´s a leader of some men, for sure. Any character like that will spawn a number of beta followers who want to imitate him and capitalize on the stuff he´s projecting.

Give him a mic and a few grands for a music video and marketing and its a done deal.

Dave
Dave
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

But see, really it’s the ‘everyone’ who hates on the alpha that is in the wrong unless he’s seriously hurting people. Betas have no sense of self and find their identity in the group, whatever the majority’s values are. No one should be persecuted for being themselves. That’s why some call these type of people ‘sheeple’.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Agreed

King A
King A
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

YOHAMI wrote: “And you can see the interviewer getting aroused….” No, you can’t. Detecting social cues that don’t exist is wish-fulfillment on par with masturbatory fantasy. I just watched it again. Where’s your evidence of “arousal”? It’s one thing for a man to possess the confidence that he is alluring and to proceed accordingly as if his assumptions were true. Fake it till you make it. It’s another thing to invent responses in other people to comport with a fictional script. Delusions of grandeur. The kid exhibits a couple of alpha traits that in isolation are good to observe for… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

Where:

The interviewer keeps stumbling on her feet and reacommodating her posture, with a half eating grin, indignance, trying to bring the kid down, one shit test after another. Such power play, all of that, is how female arousal manifests when dealing with a jerk, just before the jerk breaks her.

But the kid isnt dominating the interview nor taking advantage.

unbowed
unbowed
9 years ago

Too often when guys see examples of alpha males, particularly douchbag alphas, they believe that they’re supposed to ape the behavior of the d.a. The guys then complain that they don’t want to be like that douchbag or that he can’t be a ‘true’ alpha.
But the trick is to learn something from the alpha, not try to imitate him.
I agree with Roissy’s definition of alpha and it’s funny how it ticks people off (especially women who don’t want to believe they could be attracted to anyone less than courageous and wonderful).
These controversial posts are great.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  unbowed

“Why MUST pussy only be a side effect?” Because when pussy is the holy grial, pussy chooses to go with somebody else. Because when pussy defines whats valuable, you end up with no value. Because when pussy sets the rules, you become a follower. Because when pussy is worth working for, it makes you work – instead of jumping on your lap when you least expect it. Because pussy wants to be your side effect, pussy doesnt want to be your goal. Because pussy IS a side effect. Because pussy comes easy when pussy is not the objective. Because pussy… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago

I find Roissy´s definition misguiding. Defining alpha in terms of “attraction” is like defining water in terms of “it takes your thirst out”.

I mean, sure, water takes your thirst out. But that´s not what makes it “water”. Taking your thirst out is somatic.

mac
mac
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Maybe because “alpha”, unlike water, has no existence in itself. Water is still water, whether you drink it or not. But an “alpha” who doesn’t strongly attract numerous hot babes… well he just ain’t no alpha.

In other words alpha is it’s own effects, and nothing more than that.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  mac

Eh, wrong.

There are traits / behaviors that are alpha, beta, omega, etc. Your alpha/beta/omega status, or, your “nature” depends on which traits/behaviors you have and express.

What you´re saying is that a water that doesnt cure numerous thirsty people aint no water. And eh, you are right. But the point stands.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  mac

Actually, sea water is bad when you´re thirsty and it´s still water. So. You can mix a lot of alpha traits and enough of unattractive traits to make a tempting but bad cocktail.

Stuff can be measured by its effects / face value but its unconducting to understand what stuff “is”.

mac
mac
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

As you know, the origin of the alpha term is the observation of primates. Now did they identify the alpha by looking for the biggest/most beautiful/cockiest/funniest ape ? No. They looked for the ape who was humping all of the she-apes, and who the other apes backed down from. i.e. from the very start, the alpha concept referred to effects, not causes.

Of course, you can correlate many characteristics/behaviour patterns with these effects, but at the end of the day, the alpha is defined by the effects, not the causes.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

And people didnt examine the molecules of water in order to get their thirst satiated. In one hand you have the nature of things and in other hand cognition of these things. What Im saying is that measuring something from the cognition side ONLY is misguiding.

Water is not “what cures your thirst”. Curing your thirst is a an effect of it, and might vary between individuals. Alpha is not “what attract girls”, but attraction is an effect of it.

mac
mac
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Yohami, you seem to be forgetting that you are the one who made the water comparison, not me. My whole point is that alpha is not like water.

I can see I won’t convince you, and hey, it’s only semantics anyway. Happy hunting.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  mac

Yep, happy hunting.

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Good example. This clarified it for me.

Jordan
9 years ago

Great post, man. It is a mindset.

johnnymilfquest
9 years ago

Awesome post.

The thing that really came across in the video was just how unreactive Corey was.

I’ve got to hand it to him. It would be hard not to react emotionally in one way or another.

Laughter if you think the situation is absurd. Anger if you are on the defensive. Cringing if you are apologetic.

The content of what he said didn’t matter. His affect display told the whole story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_display

YOHAMI
9 years ago

Thanks for that link, learning new stuff.

King A
King A
9 years ago

johnnymilfquest wrote: “The thing that really came across in the video was just how unreactive Corey was.” He appeared unreactive because he was hiding under sunglasses. Look more closely. I detected the beginning of some natural stammers that he very impressively bulled through. There’s a tendency to reimagine what you see to make it fit your preconceptions of what you think you should be seeing. But objectively he left plenty to be desired. It’s like the unreliable witness phenomenon. What is and isn’t really there? Some things left out. I saw quick, clipped answers, apologies, playing to type, and the… Read more »

Johnny Milfquest
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

1. You can’t hide your voice behind sunglasses.
2. What stammer?

Personally, I would have had difficulty not laughing in that situation. Shades or no shades.

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago

The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator. One thing of interest I’ve noticed as more women get acquainted with the alpha/beta terminology, and participate on manosphere type blogs, is they seem particularly interested/vested in trying to define/redefine what it means for a man to be alpha, and furthermore it always seems to be done with an intent of virtue and duties being part of the alpha package. Not sure if you’ve ever ventured over to Dalrock’s blog… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike C

Mike, “Question is how doe one reach that level.” The same way you dont ever question if you can turn left or right and grab something. It´s an action, not a belief. You try it and do it enough and it becomes reality. When you have it as a reality, it can be taken away. You are “deluded” and fixated in a moment. It carries on with you. If you lose it, inertia sets it back to the center. The mind is always in that state actually, grabbing something. Even if you let lose it grabs something else (be it,… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

*When you have it as a reality, it CANT be taken away.

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago

There is one thing and one thing only in the PUA community that completely rubs me the wrong way, and that is the co-opted use of the term “alpha” to describe a guy who knows how to get laid. As yohami stated, alpha is a cause, not an effect. An alpha is a “Socially dominant individual”. Look it up in the dictionary. Roissy (or whoever used it in this context before he did) bastardized it by using it to describe a man who is able to lay an arbitrary number of women. Successful mating is nothing more than a by-product… Read more »

mac
mac
9 years ago

“As yohami stated, alpha is a cause, not an effect. An alpha is a “Socially dominant individual”. Look it up in the dictionary. ” That definition looks to me to describe an effect and not a cause. “At the end of the day I am able to recognize that I am an alpha male in some social situations and not in others.” Exactly. Because alpha is not something intrinsic to you, but an effect in certain social environments. I share your distate for the use of the word alpha, I think it should be reverved for monkeys and the like.… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago
Reply to  mac

What I meant to say was that pussy a byproduct of alpha behavior, not the determinant of it.

Alpha isn’t intrinsic to anyone. It is ALWAYS an effect of social situations because the definition of alpha is “leader of a social group”. Most people wouldn’t argue that Clint Eastwood is/was an alpha male, but drop him in the middle of an aggressive tribe of primitive people who think he is the reincarnation of the devil and he won’t be getting any social cred from anyone, let alone banging the women.

YOHAMI
9 years ago

That´s like a massive shit test. If he stands there manly enough, some of the women might complot to free him and get some dick while they are at it.

King A
King A
9 years ago

Good Luck Chuck wrote: “An alpha is a ‘Socially dominant individual’. Look it up in the dictionary. Roissy (or whoever used it in this context before he did) bastardized it by using it to describe a man who is able to lay an arbitrary number of women. Successful mating is nothing more than a by-product of being an alpha male.” Right on. The blogs are ironically sex-obsessed, even as they assert their “aloofness” from the powers of women. This contradiction tends to devolve any discussion of alpha into a celebration of mimicry rather than true transformation. The solution to this… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

I’ve always found this a very strange criticism of game. People on blogs devoted to seduction focus too much on seduction.

But that aside, your idea of an alpha can be an alpha who is not good at seduction. So you can see how your idea is not as practical, for the purposes of seduction, as the idea that is used on blogs where it is understood that the main thrust of the discussion is how to be seductive.

For the purposes of seduction there is a seduction purposed definition of alpha.

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago

Here’s something else for you to chew on. The idea of “vulnerabilty game” has been around for awhile now. Current wisdom tells us that in order to maximize our chances of getting laid, we are better off employing a majority of alpha behavior tempered with a small amount of beta behavior, which I would agree with. I have lost my fair share of sexual opportunities due to not having shown enough of a softer side. If certain behaviors make you “alpha”, how do you reconcile the idea that you have to use “beta” type behaviors to maximize your chances of… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

To all of your questions I have recommended that some people use a different term than alpha, for the useful PUA concept that is lately used and termed alpha.

You can have any concept that you personally are happy with to mean alpha. That’s fine. As long as you can also hold the concept that PUAs use. Just give that a different name if that makes you feel more comfortable. Call it olpha.

unbowed
unbowed
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Exactly Xsplat.
In the context of PUA forums, alpha is the man who gets the most and the hottest girls. This is not something that makes you a good or bad man.
Why complicate this?
Outside the PUA forums, you’re free to redefine the term alpha to your liking.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Alpha does get the hottest girls, for sure.

Why “complicate” it? because understanding what alpha is, and not just what its external effects are, can get you there faster.

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

You, sir, understand the point that I am trying to make.

The PUA community has turned “notches” and certain behaviors into some kind of measuring stick for masculinity. When the 13 year old internet geeks are talking about this or that being “alpha” you know that the meaning is getting lost.

xsplat
9 years ago

Relative to your use of the term alpha, the meaning may be lost and wrong.

But if you just give it a different word, and forget that it was once associated with the word alpha, can the concept have any use? It is a practical concept?

Imagine for a moment that on PUA boards we did use the word olpha. Does that PUA concept of olpha have any practical use?

YOHAMI
9 years ago

Well, girls dont give a fuck about semantics or the PUA community agreements either. Girls just want to fuck the most Alpha men they can find. If you want to fuck lots of girls, focusing on becoming Alpha is more productive than focusing on its effects. Just saying.

xsplat
9 years ago

But you can’t focus on becoming olpha unless you also focus on causing the effects. Because if unless you are causing the effects, then you are not olpha. If you are causing the effects, then your actions are olpha.

In practical terms no one gives a flying fuck if we are alpha or not. We just want to cause the effects.

xsplat
9 years ago

I hear you saying that there is an essence of you that needs to be Alpha, and all the rest falls into place. You argue that focusing on the outward appearances fails to really cause the important substantive changes. That may, or may not be a useful way to look at things. Personally I think you can focus on the outward and the inward will eventually follow, due to the positive feedback loops causing you to internalize your actions as congruent with your personality. However it makes little difference if the inner must be worked on first or later. If… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

And everything that attracts women is (pua defined) alpha.

Again – you can have any personal definition of what a REAL alpha is that you want. So then parse the notion that everything that attracts women is olpha.

That is a useful mental framework to have, and allows people to communicate effective strategies.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

xplat, here is the whole point: Alpha is a set of traits and behaviors (core), those happen to be attractive (effect). Compare that to a tennis player. Technique, attitude and skill are the core. Winning matches is the effect. The basic notion of Alpha is that it´s unreactive and independent of the results. This is where the stuff breaks for PUA. If you measure Alpha by the results, if you go play the field CARING about the effects, you´re by definition in reactive mode. When you are reactive, you´re not Alpha, and thus, not attractive = no girls. You can… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

You can’t describe what that “core” of your is independently of describing the effects.

If you have any core attributes that do not cause attraction from women, then they are not alpha traits.

The reason you need to talk about effects is to keep the art of seduction a science. Without measuring effects, it’s just all abstract theory and talk.

We refine through observing real world effects.

YOHAMI
9 years ago

You cant define a tennis skill that doesnt cause points either. Im not saying “dont measure effects”. Im saying defining Alpha by its effects ONLY is misguiding to get there. Already explained why.

xsplat
9 years ago

I’m sorry yohami, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I really don’t understand your functional point. PUAs talk about attractiveness triggers, and generally say that those skilled at manipulating these attractiveness triggers have a personality that is therefore called alpha. You are saying there there is a different personality that independent of being able to push attractiveness triggers, but that also happens to be able to push attractiveness triggers anyway? And you are saying that this is the real alpha? There is no distinction there. If you can describe ANY way to push the attractiveness triggers, through inner or… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Xplat, Already explained the functional point about caring about effects and reactiveness and the frame and why one is easier and the other is harder. If you care about refuting what Im saying or something please address that. I agree with “You are saying there there is a different personality that independent of being able to push attractiveness triggers” No, Im saying the Alpha personality, if you define it by its effects only, you´re putting it harder to reach for yourself. Already covered why. “There´s no being, everything is technique”. Meh. We´re crossing the metaphysical here. Of course there´s a… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

Yohami, you seem to be saying that becoming aware of the cause and effects of your actions detracts from your alphaness.

That’s just silly.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

In a single line: caring about the effects isnt attractive.

King A
King A
9 years ago

YOHAMI wrote: “Girls just want to fuck the most Alpha men they can find. If you want to fuck lots of girls, focusing on becoming Alpha is more productive than focusing on its effects. Just saying.”

Best, pithiest description yet. Bravo.

But be careful. Once you begin calling into question the received wisdom, The Fundamentalist Believers of Old Testament Game will crawl out of the woodwork to shout you down with the only instruments a bottom-rung evangelist has at his disposal: repetition and ad hominem.

YOHAMI
9 years ago

I agree with* your stuff that the effects are measurable and that Alpha triggers all the attraction stuff. Yes it does. But the point of Alpha is not to trigger all those buttons. Triggering is a result of, not the direct intention.

Man this stuff should be Alpha 101.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

The point of learning seduction is to seduce.

I could give a flying fuck how “alpha” I am.

The point of a wrench is to turn nuts. It isn’t to be a great wrench.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

I get what you want and how you view this stuff.

It is like a tennis player saying “I just want to win matches, I dont give a fuck about how good of a tennis player I am” though.

See, the better you “are” the more you win. Already explained the point, plenty.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

If I’m understanding your position, it’s that not being outcome dependent raises confidence. My position is that you can be aware of all the workings and machinations of game to the finest detail without losing confidence. Awareness of how actions affect outcome does not translate into being outcome dependent and losing confidence based on outcome. If I’m groking your position, it’s that game is better when its internalized to the point of being subconscious and when these subconscious positions are not only about game. I’m saying that game is about game is about game, and it doesn’t matter if it’s… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Awareness is vital, never said anything against awareness. “If I’m groking your position, it’s that game is better when its internalized to the point of being subconscious and when these subconscious positions are not only about game.” No. Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there. Will you address what Im saying at all? “It’s only alpha by the effect.” Nope. Alpha is cause, never effect. If something is alpha by its effects, it is not Alpha at all. Check the dude in that video and what I have been saying about reactiveness etc. I… Read more »

itsme
itsme
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

It is like a tennis player saying “I just want to win matches, I dont give a fuck about how good of a tennis player I am” though.

but winning matches is the goal, and is the metric by which your ‘goodness’ is measured. if you can win the most matches, are you not good? if you think you’re a good player, but don’t win any matches, does it matter what you believe?

few players win every single match they play, but the good ones figure out what they did wrong and leverage that information into future wins.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  itsme

No, winning matches is not the goal.

Playing the game is the goal. Wining is a measure. But for Alpha, wining already happened. So the focus is to ENJOY it.

Wining can only be the goal when you contemplate losing.

Alpha frame 101.

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago

but winning matches is the goal, and is the metric by which your ‘goodness’ is measured. if you can win the most matches, are you not good? if you think you’re a good player, but don’t win any matches, does it matter what you believe? That’s the majority of the problem with the co-opted definition of alpha. It leads men to believe that they are playing for the prize and not for the game. If your sole focus is women and your sole determinant for being successful in life is how much pussy you can get, you are gonna miss… Read more »

itsme
itsme
9 years ago

i get what you’re saying. if you read a pua blog, of course it would seem that getting pussy is of prime (perhaps only) importance, because….it’s a pua blog. guys read such blogs to help them score more pussy. but that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s all they want out of life, any more than guys exchanging tips on a car forum/blog are only concerned about cars and nothing else. i personally have never gotten the impression that these blogs are trying to convince guys that getting a woman out of her pants is the holy grail. i just see… Read more »

unbowed
unbowed
9 years ago
Reply to  itsme

Certainly there are benefits from following the wisdom on this blog that go beyond picking up women. Learning to be unflappable is an excellent skill in tense situations. But for the blog it’s better to have a narrow definition of alpha, as opposed to an overly broad interpretation that is open to self-serving tinkering by women (e.g. men need to man-up) or misinterpretation by well-meaning men (e.g. an alpha is always a strong, leader of men). The narrow definition keeps us all on the same page. We can’t even have a proper disagreement on tactics if we don’t agree on… Read more »

BroHamlet
BroHamlet
9 years ago

I didn’t get the impression that this kid was really that much of a douche. I don’t agree with what he did, but he did apologize. How many of you would let someone try to make an example of you on national TV when you’ve already fessed up? The interviewer tried to scold him and he stood his ground because it’s not even her business to do any scolding. Maybe i have a problem with authority because I (and I suspect most people here) wouldnt have bent over either. Off topic: If this kid is a decent promoter, which he… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

I get the idea that some people have resistance to being defined by women, or judged by women. But that’s the setup. Women judge what they find attractive. It turns out that appearing to be unmoved by judgment can be attractive. But only within the context of social awareness and frame control. An electrical engineer unmoved by womens opinion of his apartment cluttered with used electronics can have all the aloof confidence he wants and it won’t be attractive. Women are the arbiters of what they find attractive. This necessarily means that those who want to be good at attraction… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Xplat, care to comment about the reactiveness issue Im bringing?

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

I already did. Game theory covers being reactive very clearly and specifically. When you have the definition of alpha being “what women are sexually attracted to”, reactiveness is dealth with perfectly well. You don’t have to have a definition of alpha outcome independent in order to pass shit tests. You say “Alpha is cause, never effect. If something is alpha by its effects, it is not Alpha at all. ” which just doesn’t mean anything. Why is your alpha cause alpha? How can you know? It just is because it is? We only know something is green because we measure… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Oh dude.

Anyway. More girls for me.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

There are two schools of thought regarding self esteem. There is the “you’re perfect just the way you are” school, which teaches that people have a core that is basically fundamentally good, and there is the school that teaches that you are good if you can produce good outcomes.

I’m of the latter school.

I believe that a greater confidence comes from the latter school.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

You keep missing the whole point dude.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Anyway. More girls for me. So you are not outcome independent after all. You’re saying that your way to be alpha is more attractive. You keep missing the whole point dude. I’ve made every effort to understand what YOUR point is. Not THE point – YOUR point. I’ve quoted you in you in my replies, I’ve addressed your words and concepts. You have shown no effort to address my examples. I understand your point as clearly possible given your words – as I’ve made every effort to show. You are being obstinate and stubbornly refuse to even notice a thing… Read more »

unbowed
unbowed
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

@xsplat
Yohami seems like a good guy, but he’s frustrated that his tortuous ideas of alpha aren’t accepted so he turns to ad hominem attacks.
On other topics he’s been sound.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Xsplat, Thing is you keep misrepreseting anything I say and arguing against figurative ideas that Im not presenting. In short, you´re doing strawman fallacy. Example: “The idea of alpha independent of the effects of alpha is an undefined idea divorced from empirical reality.” Yeah. But who is saying theres anything “independent” of the effects? not me. So who are you arguing against, what are you disagreeing with? In reality you havent even touched my argument. You keep beating the shit out of some non-present figure though. Seems like me questioning some PUA concept rubs you the wrong way. If thats… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there.

Is that misrepresenting you?

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Thats my quote and thats fine, and it means something different than the argument(s) you keep fighting against. What does it mean? already explained it!

xsplat
9 years ago

Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there.

But who is saying theres anything “independent” of the effects? not me

You aren’t saying anything, you slipper mofo.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

I am.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

You are very comfortable with internal inconsistencies in your mental map.

I I was going to talk to someone who refused reason and accountability I’d be trying to fuck them.

YOHAMI
9 years ago

Xsplat etc. So, PUA has defined Alpha as “what attracts women”. Good. Alpha does attract women. You can break down every action and every detail and make a comprehensive list about alpha, and then you can go and emulate it piece by piece and get similar, of not same results. Good? not arguing about that. What Im saying is this: Defining Alpha purely from a point of view of its results and effects, is putting it harder for yourself to reach the Alpha state. What Alpha state? well, a state or a being or whatever is out of your current… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

I get the impression that if I reword what you say you’ll accuse me of mis-representing you. We already understood that you believe that acknowledging a goal leads you to think that you have a poverty mentality of a person who has not reached the goal. You are advocating a confidence trick of “Loving yourself unconditionally. ” Of deciding that you are already alpha. That’s a technique with a goal in mind, like any other. You are just trying hard to be unconscious of the goal. Perhaps you can see how this idea of yours So whats attractive? Loving yourself… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

No brother. For some reason, you keep doing it. Whats going on? “You are advocating a confidence trick of “Loving yourself unconditionally. ”” No. Im saying the tricks dont make the cut. “I posit that self esteem that is based on real world measures is stronger than unconditional self esteem.” If you do read what Im saying, Im saying do the real stuff and change your life so the frame is sustained by reality (the effects and feedback) Really, its like you´re debating someone else bro. WTF. You keep pointing like Im saying something like this: “ehhh you dont need… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Even directly quoting you frustrates you.

Your ideas are all a jumble. No matter you are frustrated.

You don’t have to be intimidated by knowing what you goal is and having a goal. Knowing of a goal and having a goal is not at odds with being confident that you are a man who can attain that goal.

If you still think I’m arguing with someone else, read your own disjointed ramblings.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Its all good bro. Have fun.

King A
King A
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

YOHAMI: Your words are clear and you are correct. Most of the repetitive misunderstanding is willful: a will to misunderstand to avoid honest acknowledgment of a superior point. Very common in rhetoric. This is Socrates vs. the sophists. The dialectic doesn’t always end with a clear acknowledgment that an interlocutor’s mind has been changed. It’s largely their own problem.

trackback

[…] Just a ramble I left at Rollo´s blog. […]

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago

I generally agree with what yohami is saying but there are a couple of points that I want to expand on: 1) I agree with roissy in that mimicking alpha traits can become a self fulfilling. Indeed some of this can be internalized to the point where simply aping the behaviors of a high value male will give you value. 2) Saying “So whats attractive? Loving yourself unconditionally. Who does that? eh. Only Alpha can. And its a deluded thing for sure. It is also attractive as hell.” implies a couple of things. First it implies that somehow there is… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago

Yes, Alpha is situational and context dependent. You are running an internal script, your mind has a frame, but it´s only as good as the situation you are in – and the effects you produce.

I can relate to the MTV cribs and the girls fighting over you.

xsplat
9 years ago

No, Good Luck Chuck, you can’t disagree with Yohami, because he didn’t say that.

No matter what position he takes, that’s not what he really means.

He doesn’t really mean that practicing alpha traits while at the same time working on the externalities of your life won’t eventually make you internalize alpha attitudes.

He doesn’t really mean that alpha traits are not accurately described as traits that are seductive to women.

His position is unassailable. Because he means something else.

xsplat
9 years ago

And of course he doesn’t even mean it when he implies that merely holding the wrong definition of alpha can completely fuck up your oh so tenuous alpha frame.

xsplat
9 years ago

“The working definition for PUA purposes of an alpha traits are traits that sexually excite women”

“No, that can’t be right, because I’m cool, whether women like me or not! In fact it’s this very attitude that makes women like me!”

Men don’t need a hampster like that.

xsplat
9 years ago

It’s funny how poor logicians find their way to boards that discuss attraction to proclaim that the art of attraction shouldn’t be only focused on what women are attracted to.

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago

King A said: “Right on. The blogs are ironically sex-obsessed, even as they assert their “aloofness” from the powers of women. This contradiction tends to devolve any discussion of alpha into a celebration of mimicry rather than true transformation.” I have enjoyed roissy’s blog since I first discovered it a few years ago. But there is one thing that I hate about it- the culture that celebrates the chest thumping and posturing of these low SMV men who have transformed themselves into “alphas” by copying the behaviors of true high value males. That’s all game is. Mimicking the body language,… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

I don’t know what gives you that impression. I don’t get it.

If you were to spend time on a blog that spoke of ice cream, would you also get the impression that people there were ONLY concerned with ice cream and were unable to appreciate or persue anything other than ice cream?

Of course the discussion is focused. It’s a themed blog.

And people very often do discuss building up other ATTRACTIVE qualities, such as income and passions. As you well know.

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

There have been numerous references over the years by bloggers and commenters alike to the idea that the pursuit of wealth/status/power is a waste of time if you know game. They look down on people who pursue these things and use them to their advantage in the mating game.

xsplat
9 years ago

Yes, of course there is some disagreement, but there is also plenty of discussion about wealth and many people very specifically talk about how it’s helpful. Do you need monolithic agreement about every specific non-verbal game trait in order to feel happy about the endeavor? Inner game as well is discussed plenty. On game blogs, every aspect of attraction is discussed – not just verbal emulation of alpha traits. But you know this. I hate to let myself say something that might come across as disrespectful, but what choice do you leave me but to believe that you are involved… Read more »

King A
King A
9 years ago

xsplat wrote: “If you were to spend time on a blog that spoke of ice cream, would you also get the impression that people there were ONLY concerned with ice cream and were unable to appreciate or persue anything other than ice cream?” If the ice cream blog regularly discussed politics and science and race and economics, as Roissy’s does, and then sought to connect it to ice cream then we would be able conclude something about the author’s opinion on the vital importance of ice cream. I won’t bother citing the many posts (and many more comments to posts)… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

I can’t help but get the impression that some people are against knowingly and deliberately and specifically being charming and seductive, and are against talking about it and are against teaching it.

Full stop.

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

I don’t know where you might have gotten that idea from any of the comments on this thread. I am all about using every advantage available. But I am also about experiencing some of the other finer things in life. Trappings of the life of a a TRUE alpha male. You can learn how to pretend to have high sexual market value and have to start the cycle all over again as soon as your current woman figures you out, or you can invest in actually acquiring high sexual market value and watch the money and pussy fall into your… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

And on game blogs people argue against becoming a genuinely high value male?

I’m not seeing it.

Would you go on a blog about kittens and tell people to get a life and stop focusing so much on kittens?

xsplat
9 years ago

I’ve had this discussion before. What aspect of themed blog don’t you understand or are you against?

If you are against the theme, you are against the theme.

You know what a theme is – right? So why are you against the theme?

YOHAMI
9 years ago

Chuck.

Yeah, this is quite perplexing.

xsplat
9 years ago

I can’t help but get the impression that some people are against knowingly and deliberately and specifically being charming and seductive by any means other than becoming a high value male under the definition that meets their personal view of their self, and are against talking about it and are against teaching it.

They think that themed blogs that discuss any other tactics should not exist and at least not have that theme.

xsplat
9 years ago

or you can invest in actually acquiring high sexual market value and watch the money and pussy fall into your lap. The incontrovertible fact that money is an attractiveness trigger is barely and weakly argued against on PUA blogs. The argument against it is not that money is not an attractiveness trigger, it’s that for some people with some sexual strategies in some parts of their life don’t really need it. Which is true. Is this all about where your style of alpha rates in the world? Does it irritate you that women go for men who you deam low… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Check my stuff bro, you might find some of these answers.

http://www.yohami.com

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Ya, I was going to ask you to check out your blog also.
http://yohami.com/blog/2011/10/04/if-you-want-to-debate-like-you-are-a-feminist-you-have-to/

You debate like a feminist.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Shut up. And do check my stuff.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

That’s a very weird reply Yohami. Mr. dissimulation.

I just linked to YOUR blog, and you tell me to read your blog.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Yes, shut up and read.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

I don’t have enough respect for you to read more of your blog.

You are welcome to read my blog if you like.

But I don’t see that your thinking process could be of any value to me. Or anyone.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Drop that gay flame wars routine and check my stuff.

Im already reading your stuff.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

No, I’m serious, your thought processes don’t warrant more attention. Your ideas are disjointed and jumbled and full of internal contradictions. Plus you don’t respond to alternate ideas. It’s pointless to discuss things with you, because you don’t meaningfully engage.

If you have something on topic to say that is of value, say it here, and I may respond.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Are you in Asia? whats the deal.

The Ace of Spades [A♠]
The Ace of Spades [A♠]
9 years ago

This was a thought provoking post, Rollo; especially the Venn diagram. Thank you for all of it. Being the man I am (focused on results benefiting personal improvement), I find it most efficient to simply define Beta and avoid such behaviors. In short: I never worry if my choices are Alpha – on occasion, I worry if they’re Beta. This may seem like splitting hairs but, in practice, I find it a path much more readily traveled. I doubt myself far less than I would otherwise. Also, the real issue at heart (regarding female relations) is that Beta behavior is… Read more »

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago

Jesus Christ….how about we all just whip our dicks out and measure to see who gets the final word on alpha. Frankly, I think it was nailed right here: The classic example of defining, say, “courage” is the golden mean between two equally malignant vices, which are “rashness” and “cowardice.” Alpha is the golden mean between indifference (sociopathy/solipsism) and over-investment (beta obsequiousness/dependency). So rather than having a single opposite, like a two-dimensional virtue, alpha lies at the center of many opposites, like an interior focal point of a multi-dimensional sphere. Seems to me that arguing over and over whether alpha… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike C

It should be acting, interacting, verbaliiziing with the right frame, right body language, etc.

And how can you have a meaningful and useful consensus of what is “right”, unless it is measurable against the real world of outcomes?

And why would you want to?

Don’t you realize that game blogs are about game, and what the purpose of game is?

Or do you think PUA blogs are about being the best person you can be?

Why are people against having a goal and getting it done? Why MUST pussy only be a side effect?

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

I trade financial markets (stocks, futures, options, etc.). One of the things that took me the longest to internalize (years) was to focus on the process of correct trading, not the final profit/loss of an individual trade. In fact, you can do the right thing and lose money and wrong thing and make money on an individual trade. If you read interviews with any of the great traders, guys who have made millions or even billions like a Paul Tudor Jones, they all say focus on doing the right thing, not making money. Making money flows naturally if you trade… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike C

I think what some have been saying here is getting pussy/getting laid is the wrong focus for “being alpha”. Being alpha precedes the getting pussy part. That said, I don’t think a person can just imagine up in their head their own personal fantasy of alpha, and for example if they can’t pull redefine alpha to suit their own circumstances. Getting any particular pussy is a focus that can detract from game. Getting pussy in general is not. There is nothing about having a goal that is incompatible with holding an alpha frame. But you know that. In fact it’s… Read more »

King A
King A
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Mike C wrote: “One of the things that took me the longest to internalize (years) was to focus on the process of correct trading, not the final profit/loss of an individual trade.”

Most illuminating and most apt metaphor yet. Perfect.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

And yet without the underlying motivation to make money, he’d never have the incentive to learn that skill of trading.

Without the underlying motivation to get chicks, many a great guitarist would never have picked up the guitar.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

“Which as I’ve repeated and repeated and repeated” x100

Try reasoning between these repetitions though. There´s an argument on the table.

YOHAMI
9 years ago

“Why MUST pussy only be a side effect?” Because when pussy is the holy grial, pussy chooses to go with somebody else. Because when pussy defines whats valuable, you end up with no value. Because when pussy sets the rules, you become a follower. Because when pussy is worth working for, it makes you work – instead of jumping on your lap when you least expect it. Because pussy wants to be your side effect, pussy doesnt want to be your goal. Because pussy IS a side effect. Because pussy comes easy when pussy is not the objective. Because pussy… Read more »

King A
King A
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

YOHAMI wrote: “Because investing 20% of energy on pussy brings 80% of the pussy, assuming you use that remaining 80% to work on your big cock.”

This combined with trader Mike C’s testimony above explains the origin of the term, “Big Swinging Dick.”

Great, great book.

xsplat
9 years ago

You guys have already agreed that an alpha frame is attractive. So there seems to be no disagreement that alpha traits can be described accurately as traits that are attractive to women.

You just don’t want to be consciously aware that alpha traits are attractive to women, and don’t want to know if some traits are not attractive. Because you just want to “be yourself”.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

xsplat
9 years ago

“Being alpha just coincidentally happens to match up 100% with having traits that are sexually arousing to women, but if I’m aware of this it will destroy my ability to hold an alpha frame”

Well done guys.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

So close! here:

“Being alpha just coincidentally happens to match up 100% with having traits that are sexually arousing to women, but if MY ONLY GOAL IS TO BE SEXUALLY AROUSING TO WOMEN, this it will destroy my ability to hold an alpha frame”

Perfect.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

Did anybody anywhere ever say or imply that those interested in being charming and seductive should not have or do not have other interests and goals?

Is there anything incompatible with having the goal of getting pussy and getting pussy? Is there anything incompatible with with having the aim of being charming and being charming?

I think you don’t really get the whole logic thing.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

And did anyone say being “aware” was a problem? you´re the one with a beef against an imaginary enemy here bro. I checked your blog, you are ok guy and not a crazy fucker. I liked your entries from some years ago. For some reason, though, you are arguing like some religious crappula against non existent religion haters. Like you were in the middle of manboobz fighting with some rain of human spit. You´re not. Relax dude. Nobody here is hating game, at least not today. I have my contempt for PUA but the discussion is not even about that.… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

“Being alpha just coincidentally happens to match up 100% with having traits that are sexually arousing to women, but if MY ONLY GOAL IS TO BE SEXUALLY AROUSING TO WOMEN, this it will destroy my ability to hold an alpha frame” You never answer any of my questions, so I see no reason to answer yours. But I’ll be generous. I disagree with you. It is possible to have in the moment the only goal being to sexually arouse a woman, and to sexually arouse her. And in general it is physically impossible to have that as your only goal… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

“It is possible to have in the moment the only goal being to sexually arouse a woman, and to sexually arouse her.”

Yes, it is possible to have, at any moment, the only goal of arousing a woman, and arousing her. But that wasnt the question.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

That wasn’t the question. I answered something else because I said “in the moment” instead of in general.

Bullshit. I answered your general question. I said that your question is meaningless because no one can in general have that as their aim all the time.

Look, it’s simple. Wanting to get laid and knowing how to do it does not get in your way. Being alpha in order to get laid is fine – it won’t stop you from knowing how to be alpha or from being alpha.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

“That wasn’t the question. I answered something else”

Yes, thats what you did.

“Wanting to get laid and knowing how to do it does not get in your way.”

Wanting to get laid and knowing how to do it doesnt get in your way, thats correct. Thats not what we´re discussing though.

“Being alpha in order to get laid is fine”

Nope, logic crumbles there.

xsplat
9 years ago

I think what some have been saying here is getting pussy/getting laid is the wrong focus for “being alpha”.

Is it imcompatible with “being alpha” to have as part of your motivation to be alpha to realize the positive effects of being alpha as being attractive to women?

In other words, can an alpha want to be alpha in order to attract women?

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

“Is it imcompatible with “being alpha” to have as part of your motivation to be alpha to realize the positive effects of being alpha as being attractive to women?” Wanting women is compatible with being alpha, and compatible with the driven of being alpha. Its a big chunk of it. The presence of women pushes the competition. “In other words, can an alpha want to be alpha in order to attract women?” Theres nothing wrong with wanting to attract women. It only becomes “wrong”, with quotes, when thats the sole motivation to be alpha -> it clashes with the attributes… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

You can have any idea of “to be alpha” and motivation for it that you want. I don’t care if I’m “alpha” or not. It means nothing to me. I care about attracting and manipulating women. Your alpha means nothing to me. And my interest and ability in attracting women in no way gets in the way of achieving that. This is a purpose specific interest. I have no interest in your vague notions of alpha. I could care less about that idea. The whole reason to talk about alpha, is ONLY to talk about attracting women. That is the… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Thats fine bro. You dont have to care. Enjoy the ride.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

You have a platonic notion of alpha as a thing. I have a functional notion of it of a thing that does something. My reason to use the concept is functional, and only functional. It has meaning only in relation to the function. I use the word as part of a toolbox of tools to do a specific thing. I mentioned from the beginning. The concept, from a PUA point of view, is useful as a tool. This is why people use it. As a tool. If you have ideas about being the uberman and following interests that don’t relate… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

“My reason to use the concept is functional, and only functional. It has meaning only in relation to the function.” Thats fine. Alpha (not Olpha) is functional too. Just not functional about getting women “only”. It has other functions, other roles, and it stars with roles/functions amongst men and the men ladder and hierarchies. Alpha translates to dominance, resources, power, power, power. And ultimately it expresses through behaviors / traits. But its all 100% functional. In my personal case, Alpha is allowing me to do greater stuff than the people around me, and makes me really privileged. So, it isnt… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

And of course every aspect of your Alpha that is attractive to women is by definition olpha.

Every aspect of your Alpha that is neutral or not attractive is not olpha.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Every aspect of Alpha is attractive to women, even the negative aspects of it. Nothing neutral about Alpha.

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

The whole reason to talk about alpha, ****is ONLY to talk about attracting women.****

That is the purpose and goal. ****There is no other purpose and goal.**** You don’t need any other purpose and goal.

OK. Thought experiment.

So in your world, if an all powerful magic genie made all the women disappear and the population was 100% men, you believe the concept of alpha would lose all meaning and distinction. In a world with no women, there is no difference between the alpha and non-alpha? Is that what you are saying?

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike C

To me, yes.

I care nothing about having status among men. I can’t fuck them and they smell wrong.

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago

To me, yes.
I care nothing about having status among men.

OK then. I think we just identified the key point of disagreement. The diagram above has something about “leader of men”. But yeah, I think what you are talking about is olpha. Alpha is something else I think more along the lines of what Yohami and I are thinking of. Olpha, alpha. Go for whichever works for you.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike C

This is why I entered the conversation suggesting a different term. People have specific attributes in mind when they say alpha. But seduction is not always about those attributes. Seduction needs a term that means all the qualities that women are attracted to, and how they are displayed attitudinally. Seduction requires that term. It is already currently social convention to use the term alpha for that. I’m sure you don’t disagree. That’s how it is commonly used and generally accepted to be used. The concept needs a word. So put aside your idea of alpha, when you want to join… Read more »

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

The easiest way to seduce women is being an attractive high value guy and let them fight for you. You put the effort on being that high value guy, they put the effort of jumping on you lap.

The other way is to go on each one individually and convince them you are one they would like to fight for. Then strong legs for running when the shitstorm comes.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

“being an attractive high value guy” = being attractive to women = having and displaying the traits that are attractive to women = olpha.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Nope, because all of the rest of the stuff about status among men, hierarchies, power, and the behaviors / traits that those imply, are all attractive.

You can have some of the behaviors and traits and learn how to do that, but, without the day-to-day reality to back your behavior on, its a hard thing to do. Been there done that. Hard work.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

I don’t see how or where or why you are disagreeing with the definition of alpha traits being the traits that are attractive to women.

Draw two circles. In one circle put all the traits that are sexually attractive to women. Label that circle olpha.

In another circle put all the traits that you consider alpha.

Do the two circles coincide 100%?

If not, what is different between the two circles? Where do they not overlap?

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

“I don’t see how or where or why you are disagreeing with the definition of alpha traits being the traits that are attractive to women.” All the Alpha traits are attractive to women. What I´ve been saying is that Alpha are really about other things, and happen to be attractive to women as a side-effect. So if you want to be Alpha (not Olpha), which includes men dominance leadership and the whole koolaid, having the objective as being attractive, as the main motivator, isnt a good motivator for Alpha (as opposed to Olpha) “Do the two circles coincide 100%?” The… Read more »

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago

Now we can get on the same page and talk about how to seduce women.

But that isn’t everyone’s singular objective. I’m not reading this blog and commenting “to seduce women”. I’d go to fastseduction.com for that. Rollo can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the scope here is a bit broader than “to seduce women”. I think here we are trying to learn more about being alpha not olpha.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike C

What? This entire blog is about nothing other than relating with women.

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago

What? This entire blog is about nothing other than relating with women.

Relating /= Seducing

Again, I’m not the author, but this below seems to be more to me than “how to get laid by displaying X, Y, Z”

http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/category/positive-masculinity/

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike C

Ok, relating then.

This blog is about relating with women, and on all the blogs where alpha is used in relation to relating with women it is primarily used in the context of and for the function of talking about relating with women.

xsplat
9 years ago

Yohami

The circles coincide 100%.

Great! Then we’ve agreed that the definition of alpha traits are the traits that are attractive to women!

Phew!

That took a long time!

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

What Mike said.

Mike C
Mike C
9 years ago

Do the two circles coincide 100%?
If not, what is different between the two circles? Where do they not overlap?

You JUST got done telling me that being a leader of men doesn’t matter to olpha because “you can’t fuck them and they smell wrong”. So right there, is one thing where they don’t overlap.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike C

Oh come on. From the get go I put into the circle as the very definition all traits that are attractive to women.

You asked me personally if I would care about being a leader of men, if being a leader of men no longer attracted women.

Personally, no, I would not care.

That doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that as an attractive trait to women.

xsplat
9 years ago

Frank became rich because of motivation A.
Bill became rich because of motivation B.

Frank worked out and got his body into tip top condition for motivation A.
Bill did the same for motivation B.

Frank learned a wide variety of social skills for motivation A.
Bill learned a wide variety of social skills for motivation B.

Cindy comes up, and meets Frank and Bill. Oh, Bill! I’m not attracted to YOU! You have all the traits I’m attracted to for the wrong reason!

Frank! I love you!

xsplat
9 years ago

Bill, because you know exactly what you want and are going after it directly, instead of indirectly, you are a complete fake! Frank, because your motivation was not aimed at the goal, only YOU can get the goal! Me! Because you refused to be conscious that I was your goal all along, I may be your prise! Hooray for unconscious motivations! Consciousness will only get in your way and hamper your progress! I can only love a man who doesn’t try to be attractive on purpose, but is attractive for any other motivation other than being attractive. I love men… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago

“The easiest way to seduce women is being an attractive high value guy and let them fight for you. You put the effort on being that high value guy, they put the effort of jumping on you lap. The other way is to go on each one individually and convince them you are one they would like to fight for. Then strong legs for running when the shitstorm comes.” Exactly. When you experience what it is like to have women begging for a piece of you instead of having to spend hours each week collecting phone numbers and dealing with… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

At least you aren’t saying that if your motivation to get social status was pussy then it wouldn’t work.

But at the same time I don’t see how you are saying anything that hasn’t been noticed and agreed with a million times on any pua board.

They just also talk about other methods.

Which apparently is somehow or other distasteful to you, even if you can’t quite put your finger on why without sounding ridiculous.

King A
King A
9 years ago

xsplat: look up the term casuistry. Here, I did it for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuistry Yohami and Mike C and Good Luck Chuck believe the actual is superior to the mimic, both in essence and in effect. You alternate between arguments. At times you claim the actual alpha and the alpha mimic are distinctions without a difference. And other times you claim the that actual alphaness is irrelevant outside of sexual conquest (which you back up by repeated references to the focus of pick-up blogs, which is sexual conquest). The only real disagreement between you and them boils down to your priorities:… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

Complete nonsense.

Where does the circle not coincide 100%, and in what way does having the motivation to be attractive stop a person from internalizing an alpha frame.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

If you have a concept of alpha that does not coincide 100% with the concept of olpha, please explain with concrete examples and details. And then great – congratulations for having a different concept. Which as I’ve repeated and repeated and repeated is FINE! My point is that it is pragmatic and useful and a tool to have for a purpose the concept of olpha. You are welcome to any idea of alpha that you want. But no, that’s not good enough for you. The very idea of olpha to you is an idea that gets in the way of… Read more »

King A
King A
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

What the fuck is an “olpha”?

You can’t make up words and treat them as sufficient arguments.

Your indignation is clouding your thinking. Who has time for to correct for your weird and random outbursts? I’m amazed at Yohami’s stamina.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

Oh ya, and I can’t wait for you to come up with an example of how the olpha can’t get the same women that your alpha can, with detailed examples of why.

I’m anticipating more nonsense, but surprise me.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

For the purposes of attraction, an attraction based concept of alpha is sufficient.

That’s my premise and if you want to argue against my idea of alpha/olpha, argue exactly against that.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Still waiting for 8 paragraphs of references to dead philosophers, King.

YOHAMI
9 years ago

“Oh ya, and I can’t wait for you to come up with an example of how the olpha can’t get the same women that your alpha can, with detailed examples of why.”

Women are attracted to the leader of the men´s group, the most valuable guy in the room, the guy every other man looks up to, the man every other man wants to (or dreams to) challenge. Being that man = Alpha.

You said you dont care about that part… so you tell me.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

You are deliberately obtuse.

You just described the olpha. You KNOW you did. You did it on purpose.

You obstinate cunt.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Man you´re really funny.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Are you gonna answer that or…

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  YOHAMI

You use an attraction based definition of alpha to argue that using an attraction based definition of alpha is not accurate.

You’re just dumb.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

No. This is not a definition based on attraction:

“the most valuable guy in the room, the guy every other man looks up to, the man every other man wants to (or dreams to) challenge. Being that man = Alpha.”

But attraction what girls feel when they see that guy.

So, answer please. How is Olpha going to generate the same level of attraction as that guy.

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Do you have bitch tits? You show no evidence of a testosternonized brain. Logic completely eludes you.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

You keep talking about yourself. Care to engage in the argument?

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

It’s pointless to talk to you yohami. Simple logical statments elude you. You are a man without the faculty of rationality. I’m done wasting my time with you.

YOHAMI
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

No? alright.

Good Luck Chuck
Good Luck Chuck
9 years ago

King A said: “There is a certain virtue to mastering the basics so well that you can bust thousands of men out of their betatude. None of us have what he has. But it’s still just the basics. And many of us are ready for grad school.” You need to start a blog brother. I don’t want to come off a a braggart or a blowhard, but I always feel like I am one step ahead of the prevailing wisdom. This whole masculinity movement has evolved over the past decade. Stuff that I see roissy and others posting today I… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago

King A What the fuck is an “olpha”? You can’t make up words and treat them as sufficient arguments. For the purposes of attraction, an attraction based concept of alpha is sufficient. That’s my premise and if you want to argue against my idea of alpha/olpha, argue exactly against that. I’m not arguing against your idea of alpha. You can have any definition of alpha that you want. I’m supporting the current usage of alpha on PUA forums, and in supporting it suggested the new use of a new term, in order to avoid battling over what alpha really means.… Read more »

King A
King A
9 years ago
Reply to  xsplat

Who’s dropping the ten-paragraph posts on us now? xsplat wrote: “I’m supporting the current usage of alpha on PUA forums… That is nonsensical. Alpha is a borrowed term from a much older concept, a concept your interlocutors are trying to reestablish around the smaller context of sexual conquest. Your forced neologism reminds me of the nerdish taxonomy of Vox Day, who was too cool for the three-part alpha-beta-omega distinctions and had to expand them into a dozen categories, like Gamma and Sigma and Lambda and all kinds of irrelevant, inexplicable, confusing jargon that nobody uses except him. We don’t have… Read more »

xsplat
9 years ago
Reply to  King A

I take it that you are granting that the concept of olpha is meaningful, useful, and logically consistent for the purpose defined. Your concept of alpha, in case you didn’t notice, must logically be a limited subset of olpha. Certain attractive traits are valued above others, and only those subset of attractive traits get to be labelled as “real alpha”. Of course PUAs discuss amongst themselves about internalizing alpha traits, and about gaining skills and money and a strong body and all other external alpha traits. So it’s not like you have some grand new idea about being real versus… Read more »

Dave
Dave
9 years ago

I don’t see what’s so evil about this Corey guy. He had a party, it got out of control, he didn’t actually do any of the vandalism. And he said he was sorry he just wasn’t willing to grovel and humiliate himself. I expected him to be way worse than he was in that video by the description.

trackback
9 years ago

[…] kill their inner Beta, I’d be rich beyond my wildest dreams. Just as I said with about the Alpha Buddha, if I could find a way to bottle the essence of Alpha I’d be set for life. The real truth is […]

Jean-Luc LeGame
9 years ago

This guy is a total badass. I want to get some of that essence.

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[…] the Alpha mind doesn’t care about feminine priority. He may occasionally say “uhm,…sorry?“, but his first thought isn’t to ask permission from the […]

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[…] in as personally identifying a manner as they can muster. In this humble blogger’s estimation Alpha is a state of mind, not a demographic. The manosphere will endlessly debate the qualifications of what is Alpha, but I think for the most […]

trackback
8 years ago

[…] with varying shades of Alpha-ness.” Ironically this is exactly the case I make for the Alpha Buddahs of the world – they are blissfully unaware of the latent Alpha ambience they broadcast. It’s just how […]

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[…] label for many men, both for the ego and it’s promises of access to unlimited hot girls, there are competing and often self-serving definitions. I’m not immune to this but I do find alot of misleading rubbish it written on the term. […]

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[…] with an assortment of charismatic but unreliable alpha males and “bad boys” who make their vaginas (or just ‘ginas) tingle. Then, sometime in their mid-to-late twenties, these women “hit the wall,” with their so-called […]

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8 years ago

[…] Alpha […]

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[…] Corey Worthington [trust fund baby game] – http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/alpha/ […]

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8 years ago

[…] until KISS had become a music business, show and merchandising juggernaut. In the same vein as the Alpha Buddah, Corey Worthington, Gene is the walking embodiment of the zen-like Alpha essence. Unlike Corey […]

trackback
8 years ago

[…] have no doubt that manosphere readers subscribing to the “Leaders of Men” definition of Alpha will have their rationales about how Petraeus was never really Alpha, or his actions prove his […]

Djeed
Djeed
8 years ago

It looks to me the same as if one would define the “winner mindset” as the one that makes you “win”. This is called an adhoc definition.

Djeed
Djeed
8 years ago

Rollo, I agree with the fact that alphaness is amoral. But if every man in the world would start to behave pure alpha without any concern in moral, our society would turn into chaos.

Would you agree in that alpha mindset should always be supported by a “constructive moral” layer?