Alpha

The Alpha Buddah, Corey Worthington.

What I’m about to type here is not going to make me any new friends. I know because any discussion of what constitutes Alpha characteristics in a Man always becomes clouded by the self-perceptions of how well we think we align with them. As I’ve covered in prior postings, the ‘community’, the ‘manosphere’, the new understanding of gender relations that’s picked up momentum for the last 12 years has always generated it’s own terminologies for more abstract concepts. The danger in this is that these terms lack real, universal definition. For purposes of illustrating a concept these terms are usually serviceable – we have a general understanding of what makes for a ‘Beta’ or a Herb, or a man who falls into a ‘provider’ mentality. Even ‘Alpha’ in a specific context is useful as an illustrative tool, when the subject isn’t directly about ‘Alpha-ness’. It’s when we try to universally define what constitutes Alpha that the sparks start to fly. So before you continue on reading further, think about what you believe makes a guy Alpha. Got it in your head now? Good, now put all of that aside, purge that from your head, and read the next few paragraphs from the perspective that you don’t know anything about Alpha.

I was first introduced to the Alpha Buddah courtesy of Roissy and this post “Umm, sorry?” You can go ahead and read this from the Chateau’s perspective, and I think the analysis is pretty good. I call Corey the Alpha Buddah not in the hopes that men will aspire to his almost Zen like ‘being’ in Alpha, but rather to provide an example of Alpha in it’s most pure form. He literally IS Alpha, unclouded by pretense, afterthought, or conscious awareness of any influence that could have a hope of prompting introspection about his state.

Corey Worthington is a piss poor example of a human being, but he’s a textbook example of Alpha. I could use a lot of adjectives to describe this kid, but “beta” wouldn’t be one of them. What’s funny, and a bit ironic, is this kid has probably never come across Mystery Method or “the community” or even heard of ‘peacocking’ and he gets naturally what millions of guys pay small fortunes at PUA seminars to acquire over the course of a lifetime. He’s a selfish little prick, but what makes him insulting to ‘normal’ men is his having the natural, internalized Alpha bravado so many AFCs wish they had. If you could bottle and sell this Alpha essence, you’d be rich beyond imagine.

Right about now all of those self-affirming preconceptions you had about Alpha-ness (that I told you to stow away before reading this) are probably yelling to be let out of the mental box you put them in. “,..but, but Rollo, how can you possibly think this arrogant douchebag kid could ever be an example of anything remotely Alpha?!” You’ll be pleased to know I fully empathize your outrage. You work hard to be a “better man”, you put in the self analysis, you paid your dues coming to terms with unplugging and reinventing yourself. You’re a success, Corey is fuck-up. Corey’s not a better Man than you are, however, he understands Alpha better than you do.

Alpha is mindset, not a demographic.

Alpha is as Alpha does, it isn’t what we say it is. There are noble Alphas and there are scoundrel Alphas, the difference is all in how they apply themselves. There’s a tendency to approach every “Alpha” argument from what a guy thinks is righteousness; ergo, his personal definition of Alpha is what appeals best to his sense of virtue. He earned his Alpha cred, played by the rules, and by God people (women) should respect that. However, the sad truth is that prisons are full of Alpha males who simply channeled their drive toward destructive and anti-social endeavors. There are plenty of examples of indifferent Asshole Alphas who you wouldn’t say are upstanding moral leaders at all, yet women will literally kill each other (or themselves) in order to bang them because they exude a natural Alpha-ness. Just as Corey does here. There are Alpha drug dealing gang leaders, and there are Alpha husbands, fathers and leaders of industry. It’s all in the application. Genghis Khan was Alpha as fuck, and a leader-of-men, but probably would be on most people’s douchebag list for that era. Here’s an illustration:

 

Guy’s like Corey infuriate men who have invested their self-worth in the accomplishments of what they think ought to be universally appreciated and rewarded. So when they’re confronted with a natural Alpha being undeservedly rewarded for brazenly acting out of accord with what they think the rules ought to be, they seethe with resentment. The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator. The conflict then comes from seeing his new definition of Alpha not being rewarded or even appreciated as well as a natural Alpha attitude and the cycle continues. Your respect (or anyone else’s) for an Alpha has nothing to do with whether or not he possess an Alpha mindset. 3 failed marriages and 100+ lays has nothing to do with his having or not having an Alpha mindset. There are many well respected betas who’ve never had a passing thought of infidelity, or may have 300 lays either with prostitutes or because they possess fame or stunning good looks and women come to him by matter of course.

The take home message here is that you are not Alpha because of your achievements, you have your achievements because you are Alpha. You possess a mindset you either had to develop or it came naturally to you. I constantly field questions from young men asking me whether some action or behavior they displayed to a woman was Alpha, or Alpha enough. The real answer is that Alpha behaviors are manifestations of an Alpha mindset. And just like Corey the Alpha Buddah, the introspect required to wonder if something was or wasn’t Alpha wouldn’t ever be a consideration enough to ask. You almost need to have a childlike understanding to really appreciate what Alpha really is. Kids get Alpha. Even the picked on, introverted, beta-to-be kid has a better understanding of Alpha than most adult men do because he lacks the abstract thinking required to rationalize Alpha for himself. Most men, by our socialization, and to varying degrees, lose this in-born Alpha mindset over time. The naturals, the Corey’s of the world, have a better grasp on it’s usefulness and repurpose it; either to their adulthood advantage or their detriment.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Dan Fletcher
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Thanks for the post. This topic is definitely a source of much contention in the man-o-sphere. People want to believe that an alpha has to be a paragon of virtue, honor and integrity. A man who is a pillar of civilization and selflessly works for the benefit of mankind. An alpha is merely one who makes the gina tingle. He may or may not meet the above criteria. Few things better illustrate the need to control female hypergamy than the fact that women pine for guys like Corey W. Perhaps we need a new word to describe a man who… Read more »

samseau
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All those words and still no universal definition of alpha. Sorry, not a fan of this post.

Issac Jordan
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@samseau

Roissy’s definition is a good default, as it avoids moralistic implications altogether and simply focuses on how attractive a man is to women:

“[A man’s alphaness is defined by] how hot are the women he can attract, how strong is that attraction for him, and how many of those women find him attractive.”

Still somewhat subjective, but it’s a starting point.

YOHAMI
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Hate to say it but that douchebag dumbass cockhead IS alpha. And you can see the interviewer getting aroused, to the point is start launching shit tests, and all the air of indignation at the end. The guy only needed to throw a couple of playfully dominant sexual teasings there and she would have bursted in giggles. Still, the dude is like the worst example to show what alpha is about, because non-understanding people will fixate at all the wrong things. Is it the glasses, hair, peacock? is it the stupidity? Nope. Its the thread that ties all of those… Read more »

unbowed
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Too often when guys see examples of alpha males, particularly douchbag alphas, they believe that they’re supposed to ape the behavior of the d.a. The guys then complain that they don’t want to be like that douchbag or that he can’t be a ‘true’ alpha.
But the trick is to learn something from the alpha, not try to imitate him.
I agree with Roissy’s definition of alpha and it’s funny how it ticks people off (especially women who don’t want to believe they could be attracted to anyone less than courageous and wonderful).
These controversial posts are great.

Nas
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So what exactly is alpha then? I do sense some sort of an “essence” from watching Corey but I wish Rollo had provided some sort of definition and why woman find this so arousing. Is it the “I do what I want and I don’t give a fuck” attitude or what is it exactly?

On a sidenote, I don’t see why so many people hating on the kid so much; calling him a douchebag or scumbag. I think he is very likeable.

YOHAMI
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I find Roissy´s definition misguiding. Defining alpha in terms of “attraction” is like defining water in terms of “it takes your thirst out”.

I mean, sure, water takes your thirst out. But that´s not what makes it “water”. Taking your thirst out is somatic.

Rollo Tomassi
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I’ve got a post coming up about this.

Jordan
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Jordan
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Great post, man. It is a mindset.

YOHAMI
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He carries himself with a chip on his shoulder, and is unreactive / unapologetic about it. He got confronted about his peackoking and the interviewer tried to shame him on it, and he didnt concede or really acknowledge it. He has a childish confidence and amusement that is independent on the external feedback. If anything, he takes the feedback in terms of “I love it and everyone loves it”. With 10% more dominance and teasing he would bang the interviewer. And he gets hated for that very same reason. He triggers indignation. See. The thing with alpha is it triggers… Read more »

House of Jacques
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Will Rollo ever speak about how Alphas turn the “who the fuck do you think you are?” reactions around themselves to seize the frame and get to be the boss? I feel this is important to know. Guys like Corey ARE Alpha, I’ll give you that, but behaving like that is going to make you a lot of enemies. Sure, you’ll bang a bunch of girls, but in with such an attitude. Then again, maybe he’s one of those alphas that don’t overlap with the “Leader of Men”. I’m starting to see Rollo’s point. Great post. I’m waiting for the… Read more »

mac
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Maybe because “alpha”, unlike water, has no existence in itself. Water is still water, whether you drink it or not. But an “alpha” who doesn’t strongly attract numerous hot babes… well he just ain’t no alpha.

In other words alpha is it’s own effects, and nothing more than that.

YOHAMI
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Eh, wrong.

There are traits / behaviors that are alpha, beta, omega, etc. Your alpha/beta/omega status, or, your “nature” depends on which traits/behaviors you have and express.

What you´re saying is that a water that doesnt cure numerous thirsty people aint no water. And eh, you are right. But the point stands.

YOHAMI
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He´s a leader of some men, for sure. Any character like that will spawn a number of beta followers who want to imitate him and capitalize on the stuff he´s projecting.

Give him a mic and a few grands for a music video and marketing and its a done deal.

YOHAMI
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Actually, sea water is bad when you´re thirsty and it´s still water. So. You can mix a lot of alpha traits and enough of unattractive traits to make a tempting but bad cocktail.

Stuff can be measured by its effects / face value but its unconducting to understand what stuff “is”.

mac
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As you know, the origin of the alpha term is the observation of primates. Now did they identify the alpha by looking for the biggest/most beautiful/cockiest/funniest ape ? No. They looked for the ape who was humping all of the she-apes, and who the other apes backed down from. i.e. from the very start, the alpha concept referred to effects, not causes.

Of course, you can correlate many characteristics/behaviour patterns with these effects, but at the end of the day, the alpha is defined by the effects, not the causes.

YOHAMI
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And people didnt examine the molecules of water in order to get their thirst satiated. In one hand you have the nature of things and in other hand cognition of these things. What Im saying is that measuring something from the cognition side ONLY is misguiding.

Water is not “what cures your thirst”. Curing your thirst is a an effect of it, and might vary between individuals. Alpha is not “what attract girls”, but attraction is an effect of it.

johnnymilfquest
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Awesome post.

The thing that really came across in the video was just how unreactive Corey was.

I’ve got to hand it to him. It would be hard not to react emotionally in one way or another.

Laughter if you think the situation is absurd. Anger if you are on the defensive. Cringing if you are apologetic.

The content of what he said didn’t matter. His affect display told the whole story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_display

Mike C
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Good example. This clarified it for me.

YOHAMI
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Thanks for that link, learning new stuff.

Mike C
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The natural response in the face of such an inconsistency is to redefine the term ‘Alpha’ to cater to themselves and their accomplishments as “real men” and exclude the perpetrator. One thing of interest I’ve noticed as more women get acquainted with the alpha/beta terminology, and participate on manosphere type blogs, is they seem particularly interested/vested in trying to define/redefine what it means for a man to be alpha, and furthermore it always seems to be done with an intent of virtue and duties being part of the alpha package. Not sure if you’ve ever ventured over to Dalrock’s blog… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Mike, “Question is how doe one reach that level.” The same way you dont ever question if you can turn left or right and grab something. It´s an action, not a belief. You try it and do it enough and it becomes reality. When you have it as a reality, it can be taken away. You are “deluded” and fixated in a moment. It carries on with you. If you lose it, inertia sets it back to the center. The mind is always in that state actually, grabbing something. Even if you let lose it grabs something else (be it,… Read more »

YOHAMI
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*When you have it as a reality, it CANT be taken away.

Good Luck Chuck
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There is one thing and one thing only in the PUA community that completely rubs me the wrong way, and that is the co-opted use of the term “alpha” to describe a guy who knows how to get laid. As yohami stated, alpha is a cause, not an effect. An alpha is a “Socially dominant individual”. Look it up in the dictionary. Roissy (or whoever used it in this context before he did) bastardized it by using it to describe a man who is able to lay an arbitrary number of women. Successful mating is nothing more than a by-product… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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Here’s something else for you to chew on.

The idea of “vulnerabilty game” has been around for awhile now. Current wisdom tells us that in order to maximize our chances of getting laid, we are better off employing a majority of alpha behavior tempered with a small amount of beta behavior, which I would agree with. I have lost my fair share of sexual opportunities due to not having shown enough of a softer side.

If certain behaviors make you “alpha”, how do you reconcile the idea that you have to use “beta” type behaviors to maximize your chances of getting laid?

xsplat
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To all of your questions I have recommended that some people use a different term than alpha, for the useful PUA concept that is lately used and termed alpha.

You can have any concept that you personally are happy with to mean alpha. That’s fine. As long as you can also hold the concept that PUAs use. Just give that a different name if that makes you feel more comfortable. Call it olpha.

unbowed
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Exactly Xsplat.
In the context of PUA forums, alpha is the man who gets the most and the hottest girls. This is not something that makes you a good or bad man.
Why complicate this?
Outside the PUA forums, you’re free to redefine the term alpha to your liking.

YOHAMI
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Alpha does get the hottest girls, for sure.

Why “complicate” it? because understanding what alpha is, and not just what its external effects are, can get you there faster.

mac
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Yohami, you seem to be forgetting that you are the one who made the water comparison, not me. My whole point is that alpha is not like water.

I can see I won’t convince you, and hey, it’s only semantics anyway. Happy hunting.

YOHAMI
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Yep, happy hunting.

mac
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mac
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“As yohami stated, alpha is a cause, not an effect. An alpha is a “Socially dominant individual”. Look it up in the dictionary. ”

That definition looks to me to describe an effect and not a cause.

“At the end of the day I am able to recognize that I am an alpha male in some social situations and not in others.”

Exactly. Because alpha is not something intrinsic to you, but an effect in certain social environments.

I share your distate for the use of the word alpha, I think it should be reverved for monkeys and the like.

Good Luck Chuck
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What I meant to say was that pussy a byproduct of alpha behavior, not the determinant of it.

Alpha isn’t intrinsic to anyone. It is ALWAYS an effect of social situations because the definition of alpha is “leader of a social group”. Most people wouldn’t argue that Clint Eastwood is/was an alpha male, but drop him in the middle of an aggressive tribe of primitive people who think he is the reincarnation of the devil and he won’t be getting any social cred from anyone, let alone banging the women.

YOHAMI
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That´s like a massive shit test. If he stands there manly enough, some of the women might complot to free him and get some dick while they are at it.

Good Luck Chuck
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You, sir, understand the point that I am trying to make.

The PUA community has turned “notches” and certain behaviors into some kind of measuring stick for masculinity. When the 13 year old internet geeks are talking about this or that being “alpha” you know that the meaning is getting lost.

xsplat
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Relative to your use of the term alpha, the meaning may be lost and wrong.

But if you just give it a different word, and forget that it was once associated with the word alpha, can the concept have any use? It is a practical concept?

Imagine for a moment that on PUA boards we did use the word olpha. Does that PUA concept of olpha have any practical use?

YOHAMI
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Well, girls dont give a fuck about semantics or the PUA community agreements either. Girls just want to fuck the most Alpha men they can find. If you want to fuck lots of girls, focusing on becoming Alpha is more productive than focusing on its effects. Just saying.

xsplat
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But you can’t focus on becoming olpha unless you also focus on causing the effects. Because if unless you are causing the effects, then you are not olpha. If you are causing the effects, then your actions are olpha.

In practical terms no one gives a flying fuck if we are alpha or not. We just want to cause the effects.

xsplat
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I hear you saying that there is an essence of you that needs to be Alpha, and all the rest falls into place. You argue that focusing on the outward appearances fails to really cause the important substantive changes. That may, or may not be a useful way to look at things. Personally I think you can focus on the outward and the inward will eventually follow, due to the positive feedback loops causing you to internalize your actions as congruent with your personality. However it makes little difference if the inner must be worked on first or later. If… Read more »

xsplat
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And everything that attracts women is (pua defined) alpha.

Again – you can have any personal definition of what a REAL alpha is that you want. So then parse the notion that everything that attracts women is olpha.

That is a useful mental framework to have, and allows people to communicate effective strategies.

YOHAMI
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xplat, here is the whole point: Alpha is a set of traits and behaviors (core), those happen to be attractive (effect). Compare that to a tennis player. Technique, attitude and skill are the core. Winning matches is the effect. The basic notion of Alpha is that it´s unreactive and independent of the results. This is where the stuff breaks for PUA. If you measure Alpha by the results, if you go play the field CARING about the effects, you´re by definition in reactive mode. When you are reactive, you´re not Alpha, and thus, not attractive = no girls. You can… Read more »

xsplat
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You can’t describe what that “core” of your is independently of describing the effects.

If you have any core attributes that do not cause attraction from women, then they are not alpha traits.

The reason you need to talk about effects is to keep the art of seduction a science. Without measuring effects, it’s just all abstract theory and talk.

We refine through observing real world effects.

YOHAMI
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You cant define a tennis skill that doesnt cause points either. Im not saying “dont measure effects”. Im saying defining Alpha by its effects ONLY is misguiding to get there. Already explained why.

xsplat
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I’m sorry yohami, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I really don’t understand your functional point. PUAs talk about attractiveness triggers, and generally say that those skilled at manipulating these attractiveness triggers have a personality that is therefore called alpha. You are saying there there is a different personality that independent of being able to push attractiveness triggers, but that also happens to be able to push attractiveness triggers anyway? And you are saying that this is the real alpha? There is no distinction there. If you can describe ANY way to push the attractiveness triggers, through inner or… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Xplat, Already explained the functional point about caring about effects and reactiveness and the frame and why one is easier and the other is harder. If you care about refuting what Im saying or something please address that. I agree with “You are saying there there is a different personality that independent of being able to push attractiveness triggers” No, Im saying the Alpha personality, if you define it by its effects only, you´re putting it harder to reach for yourself. Already covered why. “There´s no being, everything is technique”. Meh. We´re crossing the metaphysical here. Of course there´s a… Read more »

YOHAMI
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I agree with* your stuff that the effects are measurable and that Alpha triggers all the attraction stuff. Yes it does. But the point of Alpha is not to trigger all those buttons. Triggering is a result of, not the direct intention.

Man this stuff should be Alpha 101.

xsplat
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Yohami, you seem to be saying that becoming aware of the cause and effects of your actions detracts from your alphaness.

That’s just silly.

YOHAMI
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In a single line: caring about the effects isnt attractive.

xsplat
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The point of learning seduction is to seduce.

I could give a flying fuck how “alpha” I am.

The point of a wrench is to turn nuts. It isn’t to be a great wrench.

YOHAMI
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I get what you want and how you view this stuff.

It is like a tennis player saying “I just want to win matches, I dont give a fuck about how good of a tennis player I am” though.

See, the better you “are” the more you win. Already explained the point, plenty.

xsplat
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If I’m understanding your position, it’s that not being outcome dependent raises confidence. My position is that you can be aware of all the workings and machinations of game to the finest detail without losing confidence. Awareness of how actions affect outcome does not translate into being outcome dependent and losing confidence based on outcome. If I’m groking your position, it’s that game is better when its internalized to the point of being subconscious and when these subconscious positions are not only about game. I’m saying that game is about game is about game, and it doesn’t matter if it’s… Read more »

itsme
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It is like a tennis player saying “I just want to win matches, I dont give a fuck about how good of a tennis player I am” though.

but winning matches is the goal, and is the metric by which your ‘goodness’ is measured. if you can win the most matches, are you not good? if you think you’re a good player, but don’t win any matches, does it matter what you believe?

few players win every single match they play, but the good ones figure out what they did wrong and leverage that information into future wins.

YOHAMI
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No, winning matches is not the goal.

Playing the game is the goal. Wining is a measure. But for Alpha, wining already happened. So the focus is to ENJOY it.

Wining can only be the goal when you contemplate losing.

Alpha frame 101.

YOHAMI
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Awareness is vital, never said anything against awareness. “If I’m groking your position, it’s that game is better when its internalized to the point of being subconscious and when these subconscious positions are not only about game.” No. Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there. Will you address what Im saying at all? “It’s only alpha by the effect.” Nope. Alpha is cause, never effect. If something is alpha by its effects, it is not Alpha at all. Check the dude in that video and what I have been saying about reactiveness etc. I… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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but winning matches is the goal, and is the metric by which your ‘goodness’ is measured. if you can win the most matches, are you not good? if you think you’re a good player, but don’t win any matches, does it matter what you believe? That’s the majority of the problem with the co-opted definition of alpha. It leads men to believe that they are playing for the prize and not for the game. If your sole focus is women and your sole determinant for being successful in life is how much pussy you can get, you are gonna miss… Read more »

itsme
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i get what you’re saying. if you read a pua blog, of course it would seem that getting pussy is of prime (perhaps only) importance, because….it’s a pua blog. guys read such blogs to help them score more pussy. but that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s all they want out of life, any more than guys exchanging tips on a car forum/blog are only concerned about cars and nothing else. i personally have never gotten the impression that these blogs are trying to convince guys that getting a woman out of her pants is the holy grail. i just see… Read more »

unbowed
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Certainly there are benefits from following the wisdom on this blog that go beyond picking up women. Learning to be unflappable is an excellent skill in tense situations. But for the blog it’s better to have a narrow definition of alpha, as opposed to an overly broad interpretation that is open to self-serving tinkering by women (e.g. men need to man-up) or misinterpretation by well-meaning men (e.g. an alpha is always a strong, leader of men). The narrow definition keeps us all on the same page. We can’t even have a proper disagreement on tactics if we don’t agree on… Read more »

BroHamlet
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I didn’t get the impression that this kid was really that much of a douche. I don’t agree with what he did, but he did apologize. How many of you would let someone try to make an example of you on national TV when you’ve already fessed up? The interviewer tried to scold him and he stood his ground because it’s not even her business to do any scolding. Maybe i have a problem with authority because I (and I suspect most people here) wouldnt have bent over either. Off topic: If this kid is a decent promoter, which he… Read more »

xsplat
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I get the idea that some people have resistance to being defined by women, or judged by women. But that’s the setup. Women judge what they find attractive. It turns out that appearing to be unmoved by judgment can be attractive. But only within the context of social awareness and frame control. An electrical engineer unmoved by womens opinion of his apartment cluttered with used electronics can have all the aloof confidence he wants and it won’t be attractive. Women are the arbiters of what they find attractive. This necessarily means that those who want to be good at attraction… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Xplat, care to comment about the reactiveness issue Im bringing?

xsplat
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I already did. Game theory covers being reactive very clearly and specifically. When you have the definition of alpha being “what women are sexually attracted to”, reactiveness is dealth with perfectly well. You don’t have to have a definition of alpha outcome independent in order to pass shit tests. You say “Alpha is cause, never effect. If something is alpha by its effects, it is not Alpha at all. ” which just doesn’t mean anything. Why is your alpha cause alpha? How can you know? It just is because it is? We only know something is green because we measure… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Oh dude.

Anyway. More girls for me.

xsplat
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There are two schools of thought regarding self esteem. There is the “you’re perfect just the way you are” school, which teaches that people have a core that is basically fundamentally good, and there is the school that teaches that you are good if you can produce good outcomes.

I’m of the latter school.

I believe that a greater confidence comes from the latter school.

YOHAMI
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You keep missing the whole point dude.

xsplat
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Anyway. More girls for me. So you are not outcome independent after all. You’re saying that your way to be alpha is more attractive. You keep missing the whole point dude. I’ve made every effort to understand what YOUR point is. Not THE point – YOUR point. I’ve quoted you in you in my replies, I’ve addressed your words and concepts. You have shown no effort to address my examples. I understand your point as clearly possible given your words – as I’ve made every effort to show. You are being obstinate and stubbornly refuse to even notice a thing… Read more »

unbowed
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@xsplat
Yohami seems like a good guy, but he’s frustrated that his tortuous ideas of alpha aren’t accepted so he turns to ad hominem attacks.
On other topics he’s been sound.

YOHAMI
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Xsplat, Thing is you keep misrepreseting anything I say and arguing against figurative ideas that Im not presenting. In short, you´re doing strawman fallacy. Example: “The idea of alpha independent of the effects of alpha is an undefined idea divorced from empirical reality.” Yeah. But who is saying theres anything “independent” of the effects? not me. So who are you arguing against, what are you disagreeing with? In reality you havent even touched my argument. You keep beating the shit out of some non-present figure though. Seems like me questioning some PUA concept rubs you the wrong way. If thats… Read more »

xsplat
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Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there.

Is that misrepresenting you?

YOHAMI
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Thats my quote and thats fine, and it means something different than the argument(s) you keep fighting against. What does it mean? already explained it!

xsplat
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Im saying that defining Alpha by its effects is misguiding to get there.

But who is saying theres anything “independent” of the effects? not me

You aren’t saying anything, you slipper mofo.

YOHAMI
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I am.

xsplat
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You are very comfortable with internal inconsistencies in your mental map.

I I was going to talk to someone who refused reason and accountability I’d be trying to fuck them.

YOHAMI
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Xsplat etc. So, PUA has defined Alpha as “what attracts women”. Good. Alpha does attract women. You can break down every action and every detail and make a comprehensive list about alpha, and then you can go and emulate it piece by piece and get similar, of not same results. Good? not arguing about that. What Im saying is this: Defining Alpha purely from a point of view of its results and effects, is putting it harder for yourself to reach the Alpha state. What Alpha state? well, a state or a being or whatever is out of your current… Read more »

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[…] Just a ramble I left at Rollo´s blog. […]

xsplat
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I get the impression that if I reword what you say you’ll accuse me of mis-representing you. We already understood that you believe that acknowledging a goal leads you to think that you have a poverty mentality of a person who has not reached the goal. You are advocating a confidence trick of “Loving yourself unconditionally. ” Of deciding that you are already alpha. That’s a technique with a goal in mind, like any other. You are just trying hard to be unconscious of the goal. Perhaps you can see how this idea of yours So whats attractive? Loving yourself… Read more »

YOHAMI
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No brother. For some reason, you keep doing it. Whats going on? “You are advocating a confidence trick of “Loving yourself unconditionally. ”” No. Im saying the tricks dont make the cut. “I posit that self esteem that is based on real world measures is stronger than unconditional self esteem.” If you do read what Im saying, Im saying do the real stuff and change your life so the frame is sustained by reality (the effects and feedback) Really, its like you´re debating someone else bro. WTF. You keep pointing like Im saying something like this: “ehhh you dont need… Read more »

xsplat
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Even directly quoting you frustrates you.

Your ideas are all a jumble. No matter you are frustrated.

You don’t have to be intimidated by knowing what you goal is and having a goal. Knowing of a goal and having a goal is not at odds with being confident that you are a man who can attain that goal.

If you still think I’m arguing with someone else, read your own disjointed ramblings.

YOHAMI
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Its all good bro. Have fun.

Good Luck Chuck
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I generally agree with what yohami is saying but there are a couple of points that I want to expand on: 1) I agree with roissy in that mimicking alpha traits can become a self fulfilling. Indeed some of this can be internalized to the point where simply aping the behaviors of a high value male will give you value. 2) Saying “So whats attractive? Loving yourself unconditionally. Who does that? eh. Only Alpha can. And its a deluded thing for sure. It is also attractive as hell.” implies a couple of things. First it implies that somehow there is… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Yes, Alpha is situational and context dependent. You are running an internal script, your mind has a frame, but it´s only as good as the situation you are in – and the effects you produce.

I can relate to the MTV cribs and the girls fighting over you.

xsplat
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No, Good Luck Chuck, you can’t disagree with Yohami, because he didn’t say that.

No matter what position he takes, that’s not what he really means.

He doesn’t really mean that practicing alpha traits while at the same time working on the externalities of your life won’t eventually make you internalize alpha attitudes.

He doesn’t really mean that alpha traits are not accurately described as traits that are seductive to women.

His position is unassailable. Because he means something else.

xsplat
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And of course he doesn’t even mean it when he implies that merely holding the wrong definition of alpha can completely fuck up your oh so tenuous alpha frame.

xsplat
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“The working definition for PUA purposes of an alpha traits are traits that sexually excite women”

“No, that can’t be right, because I’m cool, whether women like me or not! In fact it’s this very attitude that makes women like me!”

Men don’t need a hampster like that.

King A
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I’m a fan of this post. Especially the use of the Venn diagram, which highlights an important point: Alpha can be applied to good or ill ends. The correspondence between “assholes” and alphas is coincidental. A rough synonym of alpha is independence or self-sufficiency: the “aloofness” and “amusement” that attends “confidence” in one’s “mastery.” You can apply this personality package to social or antisocial ends, making the criminal mastermind, the war-veteran NCO, the layabout fuckup, and the suave PUA all equally alpha with very different motivations. Rollo is hitting on something even more important in seeking to define alpha. You… Read more »

King A
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YOHAMI wrote: “And you can see the interviewer getting aroused….” No, you can’t. Detecting social cues that don’t exist is wish-fulfillment on par with masturbatory fantasy. I just watched it again. Where’s your evidence of “arousal”? It’s one thing for a man to possess the confidence that he is alluring and to proceed accordingly as if his assumptions were true. Fake it till you make it. It’s another thing to invent responses in other people to comport with a fictional script. Delusions of grandeur. The kid exhibits a couple of alpha traits that in isolation are good to observe for… Read more »

King A
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johnnymilfquest wrote: “The thing that really came across in the video was just how unreactive Corey was.” He appeared unreactive because he was hiding under sunglasses. Look more closely. I detected the beginning of some natural stammers that he very impressively bulled through. There’s a tendency to reimagine what you see to make it fit your preconceptions of what you think you should be seeing. But objectively he left plenty to be desired. It’s like the unreliable witness phenomenon. What is and isn’t really there? Some things left out. I saw quick, clipped answers, apologies, playing to type, and the… Read more »

King A
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Good Luck Chuck wrote: “An alpha is a ‘Socially dominant individual’. Look it up in the dictionary. Roissy (or whoever used it in this context before he did) bastardized it by using it to describe a man who is able to lay an arbitrary number of women. Successful mating is nothing more than a by-product of being an alpha male.” Right on. The blogs are ironically sex-obsessed, even as they assert their “aloofness” from the powers of women. This contradiction tends to devolve any discussion of alpha into a celebration of mimicry rather than true transformation. The solution to this… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Where:

The interviewer keeps stumbling on her feet and reacommodating her posture, with a half eating grin, indignance, trying to bring the kid down, one shit test after another. Such power play, all of that, is how female arousal manifests when dealing with a jerk, just before the jerk breaks her.

But the kid isnt dominating the interview nor taking advantage.

King A
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YOHAMI wrote: “Girls just want to fuck the most Alpha men they can find. If you want to fuck lots of girls, focusing on becoming Alpha is more productive than focusing on its effects. Just saying.”

Best, pithiest description yet. Bravo.

But be careful. Once you begin calling into question the received wisdom, The Fundamentalist Believers of Old Testament Game will crawl out of the woodwork to shout you down with the only instruments a bottom-rung evangelist has at his disposal: repetition and ad hominem.

Johnny Milfquest
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1. You can’t hide your voice behind sunglasses.
2. What stammer?

Personally, I would have had difficulty not laughing in that situation. Shades or no shades.

xsplat
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I’ve always found this a very strange criticism of game. People on blogs devoted to seduction focus too much on seduction.

But that aside, your idea of an alpha can be an alpha who is not good at seduction. So you can see how your idea is not as practical, for the purposes of seduction, as the idea that is used on blogs where it is understood that the main thrust of the discussion is how to be seductive.

For the purposes of seduction there is a seduction purposed definition of alpha.

xsplat
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It’s funny how poor logicians find their way to boards that discuss attraction to proclaim that the art of attraction shouldn’t be only focused on what women are attracted to.

Good Luck Chuck
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King A said: “Right on. The blogs are ironically sex-obsessed, even as they assert their “aloofness” from the powers of women. This contradiction tends to devolve any discussion of alpha into a celebration of mimicry rather than true transformation.” I have enjoyed roissy’s blog since I first discovered it a few years ago. But there is one thing that I hate about it- the culture that celebrates the chest thumping and posturing of these low SMV men who have transformed themselves into “alphas” by copying the behaviors of true high value males. That’s all game is. Mimicking the body language,… Read more »

xsplat
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I don’t know what gives you that impression. I don’t get it.

If you were to spend time on a blog that spoke of ice cream, would you also get the impression that people there were ONLY concerned with ice cream and were unable to appreciate or persue anything other than ice cream?

Of course the discussion is focused. It’s a themed blog.

And people very often do discuss building up other ATTRACTIVE qualities, such as income and passions. As you well know.

xsplat
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I can’t help but get the impression that some people are against knowingly and deliberately and specifically being charming and seductive, and are against talking about it and are against teaching it.

Full stop.

Good Luck Chuck
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There have been numerous references over the years by bloggers and commenters alike to the idea that the pursuit of wealth/status/power is a waste of time if you know game. They look down on people who pursue these things and use them to their advantage in the mating game.

Good Luck Chuck
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I don’t know where you might have gotten that idea from any of the comments on this thread. I am all about using every advantage available. But I am also about experiencing some of the other finer things in life. Trappings of the life of a a TRUE alpha male. You can learn how to pretend to have high sexual market value and have to start the cycle all over again as soon as your current woman figures you out, or you can invest in actually acquiring high sexual market value and watch the money and pussy fall into your… Read more »

xsplat
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Yes, of course there is some disagreement, but there is also plenty of discussion about wealth and many people very specifically talk about how it’s helpful. Do you need monolithic agreement about every specific non-verbal game trait in order to feel happy about the endeavor? Inner game as well is discussed plenty. On game blogs, every aspect of attraction is discussed – not just verbal emulation of alpha traits. But you know this. I hate to let myself say something that might come across as disrespectful, but what choice do you leave me but to believe that you are involved… Read more »

xsplat
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And on game blogs people argue against becoming a genuinely high value male?

I’m not seeing it.

Would you go on a blog about kittens and tell people to get a life and stop focusing so much on kittens?

xsplat
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I’ve had this discussion before. What aspect of themed blog don’t you understand or are you against?

If you are against the theme, you are against the theme.

You know what a theme is – right? So why are you against the theme?

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