Friends Like These

RT, I just finished reading Playing Friends and I was wondering, what would be a good way to tell a woman that you don’t accept her “olive branch”?

Should I ever encounter this situation, I would like this tool in my arsenal. The best reply I can think of would be “That’s not a good idea” and walk away.

Any better phrases out there? What is the ideal “level” of confrontation to use?

As I said in that essay, when you do decline a LJBF a certain amount of tact has to be involved. Any overt ‘in your face’ response will prompt an equally overt confrontational response. The trick is to convey your non-acceptance of her offer in as covert a fashion as possible, but still courteous or at least “business-like.”

The first obstacle men have to get over is that LJBFs are rejections. They are not genuine offers of some kind of enduring friendship. This goes back to what I’ve written about intergender “friendships”, and a lot of AFCs get it into their heads that they’re going to buck a trend and actually be ‘besties’ with their LJBF girl. I’ve already covered most of this in that essay so I wont go back over that, but the natural inclination for most men when faced with a rejection – that most often comes after a very long period of “sniper mentality” – is to opt for the path of least resistance and certainly the one which will make him and her the least uncomfortable. Women know this. This is precisely why a LJBF has been proven so effective for generations. It gives both parties an acceptable out, or on his part, an out that at least blunts the rejection.

The Process

The problem with all this is that the LJBFed guy is caught in the process without ever having understood that he’s playing a predictable part in a feminine social convention. So he sees the LJBF as an event rather than what it really is, a feminine-approved socially permissible mechanism for rejection. As a guy gets consistent LJBFs he begins to see the process, but all this comes after having had exclusively invested himself in the LJBF girl up until the point of the rejection. This is where the “frustrated” part of AFC comes from; his investment.

That’s the first part; a man has to recognize the LJBF for what it is. This is part of the learning process because a guy has to also do some very important self-analysis at this point. Most chumps will self-evaluate and try to find flaws in their sniping. “She might have accepted me if I had done X, Y & Z to prove I’m worthy of her.” Rather, a guy ought to self-realize why he was in a potential LJBF situation in the first place. I’ll tell you now, if you got a LJBF rejection, odds are you went about the process wrong. You sniped, you pined, you most certainly placed yourself into a position of qualifying yourself to her and thus handed her the frame from the outset. As I’ve mentioned in some previous essays, you most probably believed the lie about “women needing to feel comfortable with a guy” and jumped past the uncomfortable sexual tension of attraction directly into the comfort of rapport and familiarity.

Now, I’m outlining all of this again to emphasize that any response you can give a woman issuing the LJBF rejection should be done so from a position of complete awareness. It’s not the actual words you say so much as you understand how you got to the point of a LJBF rejection. In other words you are most likely, at least partially, responsible for allowing it to get to the point of you having to counter-reject her LJBF.

“No, thanks.”

So then how do you go about it? Some have offered the blunt “I have enough friends” line, but you’ll deal with the social fallout of such an overt counter-rejection and most likely get the “you’re an asshole response”. Depending on how comfortable you are with that I’d say it’s fair game, but don’t expect her not to behave like this. Women’s easiest recourse at that point would be to think all you were interested in was fucking her. I realize how shitty that seems, particularly when most guy’s getting the LJBF are there after having tried for months to get to the point of pressing the issue of intimacy and applying all the effort and personal investments (not limited to just missing other better opportunities). How could she possibly come to the conclusion that all you wanted was to get in her pants? It’s her only social acceptable, ego-preserving recourse, despite all you did to “prove” yourself up to then.

There’s couple of better ways however. One is allowing her to deliver the LJBF and let it roll off. You don’t have to be a prick and say “thanks, but no thanks.” You could simply let the rejection go and strategically withdraw – so long as you think you can do so. Cut off all contact and move on to spinning plates as you should have been anyway. This is simple pragmatism, if not a bit introverted, but the end result is the same – she gets the message that you’re no longer wasting yourself on her as a cause.

The other way is a the assertive counter rejection. This is not an overt “I have enough friends” response, but rather a drawing of attention to the social contrivance she’s using and explaining it to her in direct terms.

After her LJBF, you can say, “I really wish I could be your friend, but I’d really thought we meant more to each other than that after so long, and honestly, I’m looking for more. Sorry, but I guess I was wrong about you.”

I wouldn’t use this verbatim as some kind of script to follow, but this approach effectively puts the onus of the rejection back on her and makes her aware of the LJBF as a rejection. It’s very similar to a neg hit in that it puts her into a position of not qualifying for your own intimacy. The idea is to defuse any “he just wanted to fuck me” ideas and draw attention to it as a rejection. The problem with a LJBFs as a social convention for women is that it’s gotten to a point where it’s a default, autonomous response, and not a real rejection of intimacy. It’s become such a useful tool that women no longer understand the latent function of it. When they’re made aware of it, in a responsible way, recognizing the rejection aspect is unavoidable. In a rational world it’s a Man’s responsibility to approach, initiate, be decisive, etc. with a woman, it should be incumbent on a woman to give him a straight rejection or acceptance of his approach. Unfortunately not all of us are mature enough at any given stage to do so, so we develop social contingencies to cope with uncomfortable circumstance.

Go Dark

All this said, even after delivering an assertive counter, you MUST stick to your choice. You can only walk away with your self-respect and her own respect for as far as you’re willing to follow through with it. Cut off attention, focus on other things, take some time for yourself, analyze how you came to be in the LJBF position, etc.

She will try to get you back as a friend (see: beta orbiter), for her own ego preservation if nothing else. Do not allow this. It’s not her punishment, it’s not spite, it simple utility. The longer you entertain her the longer you will be paralyzed. You will be in limbo because you refuse to see her behaviors are her message, not her words. When extinguishing a behavior, in behavioral psychology, subjects universally attempt novel behaviors in order to reestablish a previous reward / reinforcer that prompted the prior behavior. This is called an Extinction Burst. People will do this too. The AFC will step up his efforts in new ways in order to prove his merit for intimacy, and women will be flirtatious and accommodating in ways they never thought necessary in order to reestablish prior attention levels they enjoyed before a takeaway. Be prepared for this.

*This post dedicated to my ever-growing reddit following.


150 responses to “Friends Like These

  • Ashley Pariseau

    Could I send your link to a few of my orbiters? I wish they would back off quite a bit. I don’t like all the attention.

  • YOHAMI

    “I wish they would back off quite a bit. I don’t like all the attention.” shut up.

  • FuriousFerret

    ‘Could I send your link to a few of my orbiters? I wish they would back off quite a bit. I don’t like all the attention.”

    I’m still laughing at this one.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Yes Ashley, you can’t really be expected to keep up with all your real life orbiters while devoting all the your time to your online attention needs now can you?

  • taterearl

    Don’t feed the monster!!!!

  • Vicomte

    Ashes:

    Sending them a picture of you with your body cropped out should do the trick.

    This is a post about prudence, after all.

    [Winner, /comments]

  • FuriousFerret

    If she’s not in your immediate social circle you can always do this:

    The Fade Away:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/the-fade-away/

    Most everything that woman does to you in terms of games, you can execute back and it fucks with them more.

  • Big Ern

    Rape.

    Nature’s answer to “let’s just be friends.”

  • deti

    “Could I send your link to a few of my orbiters? I wish they would back off quite a bit. I don’t like all the attention.”

    Yes, you do like the attention. You can get rid of an orbiter by giving him a nuclear rejection, but you wont do that because

    1. you don’t want to look like or be a bitch,
    2. your orbiters are your useful idiots for attention, validation, and dirty work.

  • Martel

    Semi-related, I thought this post by Roosh seemed like a great way to manipulate frame:

    http://www.returnofkings.com/803/you-didnt-have-to-make-things-awkward

    However, it seems like after doing that his chances with her evaporated.

    Is that okay because he had no chance with her in the first place? Under what circumstances would people here recommend doing what Roosh does as opposed to a boyfriend destroyer?

  • FuriousFerret

    But Deti,

    These orbiters annoy her when they push for romance too hard. That shit gets old you know.

    Have some sympathy here man.

  • taterearl

    Can I also send this to some of my female friends too? Their constant undying attention and wanting to take things to the next level is really making my ego too big.

  • immoralgables

    Ashley left her humblebrag comment as the first one.

    I don’t think she is going to have a good day.

  • Martel

    Ashley got beat up on pretty good the other day at Alpha Game. Some fun reading.

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-50-trillion-question.html#comment-form

  • jlw

    “I’ll tell you now, if you got a LJBF rejection, odds are you went about the process wrong.”

    Unless you have a SMV that is much lower than hers. In that case, I’ll tell you now, if you got a LJBF rejection, odds are you have a SMV that is much lower than hers.

  • Big Ern

    Seriously guys, if you get LJBF’ed , why strategize a reaction? The chick obviously thinks you’re not good enough for her vagina. Not much you can do about it. Just leave her alone, and move on with your life. And don’t be “friends” with her, that’s just dumb; men and women aren’t supposed to be friends, they’re only supposed to fuck.

    Friends with a chick? I lol’ed

  • taterearl

    “Friends with a chick? I lol’ed”

    Me too. Do you see how chicks treat their other chick friends? I’ve seen lions in the wild treat their prey better. Why would you want to be friends with that?

  • Martel

    “And don’t be “friends” with her, that’s just dumb; men and women aren’t supposed to be friends, they’re only supposed to fuck.”

    But doesn’t Ashley have all sorts of orbiters she absolutely adores (as friends) that also annoy the shit out of her?

    “I don’t like all the attention” but without the attention I’d shrivel up and die as a humble and saddened unappreciated unique and precious flower.

  • Big Ern

    @Martel Who is Ashley and why do you care what she says? If this is some chick trolling the site, wouldn’t the best outcome be gained by ignoring her bait?

  • FuriousFerret

    The best troll is Hopeless Romantic, she is some crazy Indian lady that tries to use mocking quips and fails miserably. She’s just so dumb. It’s insanely fun to read. Everything she says is some criticism on the west and how India of all places is this great cultural mecca.

  • kleyau

    A good answer to LJBF is, “What do you have to offer as a friend?” Most likely she’s going to answer with something solipsic like, “My personality,” or “My company.” To which you just say, “Not interested.” and leave. Sets the tone, and reminds her that she’s not really friends with the guys in her life.

    Sometimes she’ll respond with something useful, like she’ll introduce you to her hottie social circle, she has club connections, or discounts where she works, but this is rare.

  • Martel

    I don’t mind the trolls as much as some do; I find them enlightening. Usually (but not Hopeless who truly is Hopeless) I used to think like they do now, and I find that by criticizing them and reading others’ criticisms of them I refine my own viewpoints.

    I’m an expert at political debate because I’ve spent tons of time studying my opponents’ BS.

    I guess it’s also because I’m still internalizing a lot of this stuff. As I observe the troll get ripped to shreds, it’s like my old self is going down with them. Once I’ve mastered game a bit more I might not feel the same way.

  • itsme

    Ashley got beat up on pretty good the other day at Alpha Game.

    and she loved every word of it.

  • Unscrupulous Men (@Unscrupulousmen)

    “Could I send your link to a few of my orbiters?”

    No, absolutely not.

    Honestly Ashley, what kind of question is that? You don’t need Rollo’s or anyone else’s permission to send on a link.

    Think.

    If you’re going to troll for validation, there are better ways to go about it. Try it in real life, for example. You’ll find it to be more challenging and rewarding.

  • taterearl

    “I don’t mind the trolls as much as some do; I find them enlightening.”

    It’s even more enlightening when a female trolls that stuff to your face..and you laugh in hers.

  • itsme

    The best troll is Hopeless Romantic, she is some crazy Indian lady that tries to use mocking quips and fails miserably.

    clueless romantic is no lady.

  • Hero

    LJBF is not necessarily an ending and there’s no reason to get nasty about it.

    When I was interested in my now wife, she and I dated a couple times, she didn’t bite and tried to LJBF me. I told her “I don’t want to be your friend. You know I want more than that. Let me know when you are interested.” and I walked away. I still ran into her occasionally and was cordial to her but I never accepted or pretended to be happy with the LJBF position.

    She came around and when she did it was on my terms.

    The lesson here is don’t compromise yourself and state clearly what you want and expect.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Oh, don’t be so hard on Ash, she’s still on this side of the Wall (relatively speaking). I rather enjoy her naiveté. I think she’d make a really good ‘pour girl’ for my next promo event.

    You know one of the reason I don’t moderate comments (unless it’s spam) from trolls like Hopeless and others is that their diatribes tend only to highlight the salient points I make in my posts.

    And while I don’t think Ashley is a troll, her input serves the same purpose.

  • Revo Luzione

    Great post, as always, Rollo. The takeaway message in “Going Dark” is spot-on, in my experience. It’s always amazing to see the pendulum swing to the other side when she amps up her accommodation & flirtation. This is how ‘hand’ is gained. I’ve had women pursue me after months and even years of being ‘dark,’ and inevitably for relationship rather than something casual. It’s quite the player ninjitsu to then turn that into an emotionally connected, yet unfenced relationship while continuing to spin other plates. This is how harems are born.

    The other interesting idea on this subject was put forth by AB Dada in the comments here or on Roissy’s blog. His strategy is to pre-emptively LJBF the hottest girls he comes across, truly becomes ‘friends’ with them, infiltrates their social circles (a DHV itself), then actively games her hot friends, generating preselection.

    This is not a strategy for beginners, it’s a very advanced strategem that seems to have come from the chess board, but I can see the massive value here in creating new social circles. It’s something I plan on pursuing after an upcoming change of location.

  • Rock Throwing Peasant

    I’ve only had one LJBF since the separation/divorce (not an uber-successful player, just have a lot going on). She was a woman I met online and went out to watch March Madness at a bar. I was probably three months into Red Pill. She seemed nice enough, so I talked about getting together again. She LJBFd.

    More out of instinct, I responded as if she asked to borrow my truck for the weekend. Mildly exasperated tone, “Ahhhh, I’m not sure about that.”

    Internally, I was weighing whether she was interesting enough to keep around as a friend and whether she had friends I could angle.

    It came off (unintentionally, but truthfully) that my friendship/time is a commodity and she didn’t make the cut.

  • Revo Luzione

    PS, Glad to hear you’re putting out a book soon. That is truly something to look forward to.

  • Martel

    Also, the trolls are a great way to illustrate and practice game at the same time. As we refute their nonsense, we establish frame and dominance and do all sorts of other red pill stuff.

    And yes, it works. Not only does Ashley repeatedly return for abuse, her first comment was an obviously attempted DHV (“Look at me, I have orbiters!”). Unscrupulous was right–there’s no logical reason whatsoever to ask for permission to send a link. Her very presence here proves we’re right. Pay attention to what they do, not what they say. What she DOES is come back again and again.

    As far as blowing trolls out of the water in real life like taterearl talked about, I agree. Problem is, I think I’ve been framing so well that everybody seems afraid to say anything they think I’ll disagree with. When I was less confident in my opinions, I was constantly doing battle over them (at the time I was aware of but had not yet swallowed the Pill, this was politics). Now that I’m itching for a fight, I never seem to get one.

  • MarcoP

    Ashley is awesome. She totally fancies herself NotLikeThat™ while brilliantly demonstrating over and over again in her comments that she is ExactlyLikeThat™.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Ash, I’m still waiting for my topless self-shot you promised me.

  • Martel

    Sorry, Rollo. Beat you to it. Check your email in an hour or so. (the lighting sucks)

  • Good Luck Chuck

    The other interesting idea on this subject was put forth by AB Dada in the comments here or on Roissy’s blog. His strategy is to pre-emptively LJBF the hottest girls he comes across, truly becomes ‘friends’ with them, infiltrates their social circles (a DHV itself), then actively games her hot friends, generating preselection.

    This is not a strategy for beginners, it’s a very advanced strategem that seems to have come from the chess board, but I can see the massive value here in creating new social circles. It’s something I plan on pursuing after an upcoming change of location.

    I have used a variation of this in the past with great success. The key is in ensuring that your pivot in any particular social circle ALWAYS sees you in a sexual frame, even if you aren’t sexing her. And the pre-emptive LJBF accomplishes just that.

    I’m not sure why more guys don’t work this angle. I know it isn’t a beginner strategy due to the propensity for oneitis, but at the same time it is a lot easier and less draining to cultivate a few target rich social circles than to try to slog it out “foraging” for new pussy.

    There is absolutely nothing on the face of this earth that can increase your SMV than preselection. NOTHING. If you can master the art of walking the line between being “friends” with a few key women while retaining your sexual credibility you can bang your way through multiple women in any given social circle. When you have harvested all of the ripe fruit in that social circle you can then leverage the massive DHV to transition into new social circles. All of these chicks are your “friends” so despite the fact that you might have fucked some of them they have no say in whether or not you talk to other girls when the group hits the bar.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

  • Jason773

    As many have stated, the idea of being actual “friends” with a woman is laughable, and I have never needed nor wanted a female friend. Only betas and AFCs take this route anyways, with the one exception being the PUA/player who uses said “friends” to infiltrate a group and stab at other hens in the social circle.

  • Tam the Bam

    Trolls schmolls. I’ve gotta wheelmouse and I ain’t afraid to use it.

    Trouble is, the comedy value of “being savaged by a dead sheep” is too great to pass up initially, when a new one blunders and bleats its dimwitted way in. They soon get boring, and wearyingly unintelligible too, as their 12-watt brains overheat in the stress of combat.
    Scrollity scroll ..

    Where’s the manager? I demand a better class of trollop!

  • koevoet

    I’m with Tam. I am a professional troll on a forum and it is a pretty good gig. I just don’t see the same professionalism from many of the trolls on here. I take my role as a troll seriously and I think that my position is cheapened by these amateurs. Why do women always think they can do anything a man can do?

  • Team-Red

    With the vast majority of women steadily becoming overweight in the last decade or so I find myself more and more giving them the LJBF. I have friends that’ll happily tag a fatty but I hate that gross feeling you feel afterwards looking at what’s in laying in my bed.

    It’s getting out of control to the point where even 60-70% of the girls regularly in the gym are grossly overweight. Sad when you see girls that are cute but let themselves go.

    [Cosign. I'm in at Gold's 5-6 days a week and the ratio of in-shape men to overweight women is like 8:1 I've been bodybuilding for over 20 years and I've never seen such a disparity]

  • YaReally

    If you’re projecting sexual intent (talking to her “man to woman” instead of “friend to friend” or “woman to woman” lol), you won’t get Friend Zoned. She’ll either fuck you or bail entirely, because she knows that being around you means she’s going to end up fucking you. So if she has a BF and would feel guilty cheating etc, she won’t offer the LJBF olive branch because she knows you guys will fuck if you “hang out”.

    I haven’t gotten the LJBF thing in years, it’s pretty much not possible for me to get it because my intent is very clear, even if I’m going indirect, I’m escalating it FAST (innuendo, kino, etc), way before the LJBF stage.

    Guys who hide their intent and play the “surprise, I have a penis!!” game get the LJBF.

  • immoralgables

    I think Klayau had the comment on the day in this post regarding how to handle it. He sets up the LJBF’er and then knocks it down. Great re-frame and sure to throttle her psyche:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/friends-like-these/#comment-12716

    “A good answer to LJBF is, “What do you have to offer as a friend?” Most likely she’s going to answer with something solipsic like, “My personality,” or “My company.” To which you just say, “Not interested.” and leave. Sets the tone, and reminds her that she’s not really friends with the guys in her life.

    Sometimes she’ll respond with something useful, like she’ll introduce you to her hottie social circle, she has club connections, or discounts where she works, but this is rare.”

  • Wilf

    Not to go too off topic, but because there is a dating theme to this post, here is a link to a dating column that I read every week in a free local rag:

    http://www.thegridto.com/timewasters/dating-diaries/clare-and-eli/

    It involves a lawyer chick who goes on a date with a guy who she thinks is really nice and funny until he doesn’t agree with everything she says, play nice and suck up in order to get laid.

    Her telling of the story is comedy gold. Ha! I’m loving these Red Pill side effects.

  • Stingray

    I’m in at Gold’s 5-6 days a week and the ratio of in-shape men to overweight women is like 8:1 I’ve been bodybuilding for over 20 years and I’ve never seen such a disparity

    I see this as well. For those of you who have seen this, how many of these women would you say become regulars and actually lose the weight? Just curious.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Ash, I presume the guy shooting this video of you is one of the beta orbiters you mentioned?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/missashleyxo/6063366844/in/photostream

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/missashleyxo/6063202408/in/photostream

    Your constant fascination with the more Alpha elements of the manosphere is much clearer now. Don’t worry, I’m here to help.

  • kolo

    most likely ljbf is just a convenient and socially acceptable form of rejection, but i do think that since there is no reason a man’s value can subsequently increase after the rejection, it is worth her keeping him in earshot to check up on his value occasionally. actually being friends is more than likely the result of a fail, but if there’s one thing that i’ve learnt from game its that there are no right or wrong actions, its entirely how you frame it internally, so if hypothetically, ljbf happened to someone with an alpha internal frame, he may be happy to have the girl as his friend, happy that he already has other options and confident that he would win her over to fuck at a later date – admittidly this is an unlikely scenario, but it is not about the actions you take (it kind of is), but the mental place that those actions come from which is most important. generally, rejecting the friendship is clearly the strongest move though.

  • jimmy

    L.J.B.F might be a case of the punishment fitting the crime.
    The crime: having no idea what so ever.
    The fitting punishment (response) is tailored in accordance to the lack of awareness – which puts the recipient into a paralyzing spin often not knowing the extent of what is happening if he sticks around.

    It seems that the two concepts would be at odds with one another to be ‘just friends’ rejected (getting to that place) and knowing how to respond properly.

    Since the thread is about adding a good response – put out your hand and say ‘It was nice meeting you then’. Or ‘anyway it was nice to have made your acquaintance for a short time’.

  • FuriousFerret

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/missashleyxo/6063366844/in/photostream

    I feel so sorry for this man.

    “Could I send your link to a few of my orbiters?”

    I’m 100% serious. To this guy filming you, send him the link to this site.

    He deserves better.

  • Martel

    The comments to that video are proof of what Roosh keeps saying about how social media are ruining today’s women. You’d think it was a video of Kathy Ireland in her prime crawling around a beach instead of just a fairly decent chick doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING INTERESTING.

    And you can tell the guy’s a beta because he had the chance to take about three great butt shots but kept the camera up too high, probably being “respectful.”

  • Wilf

    Yeah I feel so embarassed for the dude shooting the video. It’s like watching a train wreck.

    [I love the 'nervous fat guy laugh' peppered into his rambling.]

  • Sword

    “We really should just be friends…”

    “Friends? I got plenty of those, not interested.”

    I think realizing you generally cannot be ‘just friends’ with a girl is one of the first major hurdles a man waking up has to realize.

  • Team-Red

    And don’t ever let a woman reject you twice, i’ve been there and it’s a shitty experience. Long story short: I got LJBF’d, I wished her all the best and moved on, then 6 months later phone rings and it was her. She’s sexy so I gave it another go and managed to get her naked that night stopping just short of sleeping together. Next day she tells me it was so wonderful to see me again, but the next date she is cold as ice and she rationalized away that I was overly sexual while she wanted to take things slow, so I got LJBF’D again. I’m well aware that women are fickle and hypergamy can be blamed here after my phone rang 6 months later because her hamster stopped running, but I fell for it.

  • FuriousFerret

    I think this gallery is very fitting for Ashley from her flickr. It’s just too perfect.

    I present:

    missashleyxo > Collections > Pets

    HAMSTER

    The real life pets of Ashley. Hamsters, Hurley and Butters.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/missashleyxo/sets/72157625950616724/

    [Ugh! And it was right infront of me the whole time. Clearly I'm losing my edge]

  • YB

    Pissing myself laughing at Ashley. XD I’m glad you didn’t moderate her, her clueless self is an inspirational practice for pure mockery.

    Had a girl try a variation of the LJBF on me: “I’m not really ready for a relationship.” Now (2 days later) we are openly talking about being FWB, and last night we had a very good makeout session – interrupted only by my brother turning up unexpectedly.

    It’s the first time that I’ve tried this. Even if I stumble, what the heck, nothing ventured – nothing gained. :)

  • Martel

    Hamsters! Downright fucking hilarious.

    Seriously though, Ash, I’m starting to feel sorry for you. Come down to Florida (Greyhound’s not that expensive), help me get my apartment cleaned up, and I’ll show you what you’ve so obviously been missing all these years.

  • YOHAMI

    “Guys who hide their intent and play the “surprise, I have a penis!!” game get the LJBF.”

    YaReally +1

  • YOHAMI

    Watching the video. What the Fuck.

  • Grit

    Her end: it is always straw man at best, ad hominem at worst (LBJF= straw man, “you are a loser asshole” = ad hominem).

    Trick is to draw it out early.

    Her: “i’lll be your friend.”

    Him: “I’ll do you friend.”

  • itsme

    Watching the video. What the Fuck.

    he’s orbiting her. literally.

  • kolo

    @ jimmy

    “It seems that the two concepts would be at odds with one another to be ‘just friends’ rejected (getting to that place) and knowing how to respond properly”

    excellent point, acting alpha in a situation where she has made a decision that you have persistently acted beta for her to come to that decision is not likely to suddenly flip the situation, you will need to re-establish yourself, which takes time, although a good response is a good start. or better, move on.

  • Myxomatosis

    Absolutely never respond to a LJBF…simply move on. Never relinquish dignity. Ever.

  • Joe Blow

    I got LJBF’ed a couple times in my youth and after responding to them with pining, decided to get out of the LJBF business entirely. If you see something like that possibly developing, make an aggressive sexual move, and if it doesn’t work, go bang one of her girlfriends. It’s not just plate spinning, it’s leveraging spinning plates. Yes, the girlfriend move will work. Holy crap, does it ever work, and it’s also a good way to infiltrate a network of chicks who are friends with each other, because they’ll all talk and one way to gang up on the LJBF girl is for everybody to sleep with her wannabe boyfriend, then talk shit about her, and what a dog (and a good lay) the wannabe boyfriend is. Understand, you’re only being used by her friend, and it probably will not work for long, because the friend’s only purpose is to use you as a stepping stool to get a leg up on her pal, and you gotta hold up your end and produce. But it will be good while it works.

    LJBF may also be a desperate plea from a woman who wants you to sack up and make a real move. Not asking if you can kiss her, but really kissing her, hard and grabbing her butt inappropriately. I’m married and have a chick friend from work who gave me an LJBF speech when we were chatting over a beer after work one night. She said it more in the way that a person would try to talk themselves off a cliff. I wasn’t even flirting (though I’m not above that) and I didn’t instigate it, but she was talking about how she really valued my friendship, she’s a good churchgoing girl, she doesn’t sleep with married men or anything. It was as if she had a huge flashing neon sign over her head – “kiss me you sack-less asshole, let’s do it in the bathroom right now, I’m trying to talk myself out of this but it’s not working.” WTF… So I didn’t make a move b/c a divorce for infidelity strikes me as a good way to lose a lot of my life’s work acquiring nice stuff. LJBF Girl remains a friend at work but tends to give inappropriate full body hugs if I bump into her socially. Nice, grindy hugs. Awkward for her and I enjoy it, makes wifey wicked jealous and a little hot. So think about the possiibility that sometimes maybe the LJBF line is an invite to man up and quit your role as the romantic sap character from those 80’s / 90’s romantic comedies. You need to be careful not to commit an assault here, sometimes “no” actually means “no,” but if you’re finding it difficult to give her the tingles, perhaps you ought to consider doing something that gives her the tingles. Roosh put it really well (paraphrasing here) that you don’t talk yourself into her space, you just go occupy it and watch what happens.I think that’s half the problem with being a LJBF sort of beta orbiter friend – you pre-select yourself out of the running by acting like a non-threatening guy. Screw that. Even if I’m not a thug, I don’t want her to know that.

  • deti

    I watched the video. I especially like Ashley’s very uncomfortable and obviously artificial smile throughout while on the floatie. I noted she continually seems to be trying to move away from the camera, almost as if trying to avoid being filmed.

  • jimmy

    @ash
    Give us a tiny window into the female mind or sensory system in regards to orbiters.
    What feeling do they produce inside the female body?
    Let me guess you feel a sense of elevation but with a strong underling comfort, a sprinkling of smugness, satisfaction, mild superiority and a dash of disdain – or some thing different. And where does this feeling emanate? – deep down inside you or does it spread out from the center of you. Is there more of a glow to the feeling from vicarious orbiters? I am curious to the female experience.

  • deti

    jimmy:

    I think the videos tell us about how women feel about orbiters: vague senses of equal parts discomfort and revulsion, mixed with a small amount of embarrassment at the unwanted attention, but genuine flattery that some man finds her attractive.

  • taterearl

    Wonderful video to watch especially her body language…you know you have AMAZING game if your conversation consist of the time of day, the weather, asking questions about how she’s feeling, and stating your low value. How could she not be turned on by that?

  • jimmy

    @deti
    Maybe it is the net difference a women gets between feelings that gets them off – a couple of bad feelings and the bounce (big net difference) to one good feeling. Just an idea

  • Ceniek

    Rollo. I may assure you your lessons were not lost.
    I likely swallowed them into my subconsciousness.
    Not that long ago I used something similar to your second reply and after some months it brings effect I wanted.
    I keep in mind plate theory this time, that too.
    Every mistake I make I make only once.

  • Johnycomelately

    The odd thing is in my beta chump (ok omega) past, I had two girls who would follow me around on campus, knowing that they had boyfriends I simply presumed they wanted to be one of the guys and treated them accordingly.

    Well after several months of this out of the blue they went nuclear on me, tore me a new arsehole and labelled me as a useless virgin (which was true).

    I guess women hate being LJBF as much as men, you get more respect when they know you want to fuck them.

  • taterearl

    “It’s getting out of control to the point where even 60-70% of the girls regularly in the gym are grossly overweight. Sad when you see girls that are cute but let themselves go.”

    I talked with a trainer he said 85% of it is nutrition. You can only burn so many calories in a day.

    If they come home from the gym and shovel in ice cream and wine, they’ll stay overweight.

  • Sexual Marxism

    So you’re suggesting being friends with the same sex only? Why do you think male 2 male anal sex is so prevalant in the Arab world?

  • FuriousFerret

    Hopless/Sexual Marxism

    Why do you bother changing your name?

    You do realize that your gravitar picture stays constant even you change names right?

  • E.J.

    Interesting timing. GirlWritesWhat just did a video on the FriendZone today.

  • Joe Blow

    @ Sexual Marxism – same sex friends, not sex with the same friends. Learn to read, brother Karl.

  • anotheronetakesthepill

    Last time I got the LJBF line was through IM.
    It was something alone the lines of:

    “Could we break up and start everything again as friends because you are my best friend?”

    My answer: Just tell me when I can go to pick up my stuff
    She kept trying: Can’t you answer?
    Me: Last Saturday I was your [sweet nickname] two days later I am your perfect friend, Just tell me when I can pick my stuff. Already told you that with me there are no more possibilities. I give everything or nothing.

    She then started telling me how she got more from me than she deserved and I cut the crap and the whole break up conversation in 3 minutes. Delete and blocked from everywhere. One week later I was showing unexpectedly at her place (in a foreign country) to pick my stuff.

  • anotheronetakesthepill

    And I forgot to add a question regarding a situation I was involved. Don’t know if that is the place to ask but has a lot to do with LJBF.

    To be LJBF can work as some weird preselection too within a group of friends?

    When I moved to a foreign country a girl and I started seeing each other until I was LJBF. Insterestingly though, as the time went by in a 1 year span I dated 2 of that girl’s best friends (and could have dated 2 more but I wasn’t interested).

    I remember that after the incident with the first girl I thought I couldn’t get any more girls of the group as one of them had already considered me ” not worthy”. Now that time has passed I have always wondered what happened to my SMV there after the first girl LJBF’ed me. Any possible answers?

  • WOW

    Spin plates at all times. I spin 3-8 plates at all times using the online dating thing plus a few chicks on the go at all times. If one were to even attempt to LJBF me, I’d laugh and stock the pond with another by the weekend. Banged a chick Monday and a different one Tuesday….and I’m a single dad.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    And I though I was the only one who noticed the imbalance between in-shape men and women.

    It is quite a testament to the sad state of today’s SMP that so many women can afford to neglect the only thing that gives them any real value.

  • Sexual Marxism

    Is LJBF like LGBT? Grrrrrrrl Says What looks like the latter. Lesbians and Gays who preach to us straight peeps about heterosexual relationship dynamics, such as The Female Masculinist and Camille Paglia, are a hoot!!!!

    Let them get married to the opposite sex first, then we’ll talk, yo.

  • LIMBO « M3

    [...] i believe in game and tell guys to pick it up, i’m not Roosh. I’m not Rollo. I’m not Heartiste. I’m you. I’m still on my own journey and haven’t [...]

  • Cheshirecat

    “The comments to that video are proof of what Roosh keeps saying about how social media are ruining today’s women. You’d think it was a video of Kathy Ireland in her prime crawling around a beach instead of just a fairly decent chick doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING INTERESTING.”

    She could stand to do a few crunches in the mid-abs, and perhaps a better hairstyle. Kinda meh.

  • Cheshirecat

    “She’s sexy so I gave it another go and managed to get her naked that night stopping just short of sleeping together.”

    How the hell does one get a woman naked and stop just short of screwing her? Did she blow you at least?

  • Sexual Marxism

    “She’s sexy so I gave it another go and managed to get her naked that night stopping just short of sleeping together.”

    Pics or it didn’t happen.

  • Confused

    I recently had a “relapse” with an ex BPD – self-admitted/diagnosed – and it’s fucked me up.

    She assaulted me after non stop hooking up for 4-6 days/nights. Her anger/violence was unjustifiable and is impossible to explain. I know what she’s capable of, and I fear for those who may interact with her in the future.

    Mainly I feel that her actions need result in what consequences are due. Were I to behave as she did, I’d be in prison. Were she unable to be subdued by me she’d have surely killed me or herself. I know she is only getting worse.

    Something needs to make her stop. I just don’t know if it’s right for me to take action legally. I don’t want to appear weak because I’ve been “abused”. I know how she is, and as inexplicable as it may be, there’s nothing that her upbringing did to prevent such behavior as only being a natural response to the slightest aggravation. The Abused always become Abusers, it seems.

    I feel weak because of this. I fear I will now abuse every woman I meet in not trusting them, and using them as sexual objects like I have since being with her (and going back to her to use her as a sexual outlet – as I learned to be addicted to via her treatment of me, in a way). It’s incapacitating emotionally.

    What do you all suggest here?

    I would like some non-deprecating input, and would add before any condescending jockey’s hiding behind their screen tell me to man up or not be beta.

    This is serious, violent, bloody shit. I have been more calm with guns to my skull & knives to my neck, emotionally speaking.

  • Confused

    Shouldn’t one who wrongs another be justly dealt the hand they’ve violently prompted given?

  • FuriousFerret

    My opinion is that you are emotionally wrapped up in the BPD woman and you want to save her. I think that’s why you went back to her. I don’t think it was the sex since you are able to get that without her.

    The problem is that you can’t save her and in fact she is like a person grasping for help in a quicksand pit, all she will do is drag you to your doom as well as it has mind fucked you. You somehow have to let her go completely. BPD requires medication and she has to be the one to decide to get the help. Her mental frame is your death.

    I suppose the really only way to help her is to call her family to see if they can try to get her to the docs. However, for your very own sake, this person doesn’t exist to you anymore. That might be the hardest thing to do in your life but your life is worth it. Unforunately you are Odyessus and she is a Siren.

    As for women as sex objects, I think once the mental imprint of Ms.BPD has finally worn off you, you will clear up in this regard as well. The thing about some of these other women is that most likely they were sex objects in that they presented themselves this way and you reacted to what they projected.

    As for the trusting women part, I don’t think that ever really leaves a wise, experienced man. All people are capable of betrayal but to live in fear of that betrayal is the true pain so you must live as the man that you know you are a fearless brave one. For the grace of God go I.

  • FuriousFerret

    ‘Shouldn’t one who wrongs another be justly dealt the hand they’ve violently prompted given?’

    I don’t know what this means but don’t do anything to her.

    Run away and never contact her again. She is your poision. Run away as fast as possible. She is not worth it, you are worth 10000 times more.

  • Sexual Marxism

    Here’s a woman who’s been LJBF’d by her male friend whom she’s crushing on;

    Radlove says:
    September 18, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    Erika,

    How would this translate into this scenario: I am deeply attracted to a man in a 3.5 year friendship, where, altho I sense mutual attraction, he insists it is only a friendship. As a result, I feel like I am being treated as less than a princess, because “just friendship” means no handholding, no kissing, no gifts, and little time together. My intuition tells me “just friendship” is only a defense mechanism, not his reality. And, along with keeping himself at a safe distance so as not to be rejected, it also gives him a position of control. If I don’t do and say as he wishes, he simply pulls away, leaving me forever seeking his approval if I wish to stay in this “friendship”.

    So all this was eating at me, and I took it upon myself to ask if we could meet in person to discuss our “friendship”. Even tho I assured him it was just a loving, peaceful meeting, apparently he anticipated an ambush. Being that the best defense is a good offense, he ambushed me instead. Two minutes into our meeting, he yelled at me about all this sh** I’ve put on him the last 3.5 years. He walked out on the conversation before I had gotten past my first paragraph.

    I tried to handle it directly, so I could get out of my circle of thoughts of confusion about his true intentions. I don’t understand the dynamics of what went wrong. How could I have handled this better?

    From:

    http://postfeminine.com/how-to-be-feminine-mystique-power-grace-new-definition-femininity/

  • Sexual Marxism

    AD
    November 30th, 2012 at 1:34 am

    Comments?

    http://jezebel.com/5964440/what-do-you-do-when-a-childs-flirting-goes-from-cute-to-full+on-sexual-harassment

    Yeah I gotta comment. Not all children and certainly not all cultures are created equal.

    United States children and its “culture” proves that.

  • xsplat

    Confused says “I shot up with heroin again lately, even though I know it’s dangerous and that I only did it out of weakness. But I couldn’t help myself – despite the dangers, the rewards are sooo high! What should I do?”

    Furious’ advice above was perfect. Don’t seek retribution. Cut off all contact. And stop pretending that you don’t understand the nature of heroin.

    Addict.

  • Team-Red

    @ Cheshirecat

    Because the entire time she was enjoying it but also telling me to stop and kept putting up road blocks and I figured getting her naked was a good progression for one night and sex was imminent. Little did I know her hamster would begin running the next day and blame me for being too aggressive, which I was.

    She’s the high maintenance type where you need to invest x amount of $ to get v and I was already 3 dinners deep by the second time around so I was tired of investing. My fault for even entertaining her the second time around to begin with. She’s the type that shops for men and won’t stop until a fat bank account comes around. She’s an 8 by my standards, but approaching the wall.

  • Tam the Bam

    Confused: “I would like some non-deprecating input, and would add before any condescending jockey’s hiding behind their screen tell me to man up or not be beta. “
    A bit awkward. I know the ‘sphere code is never judge or belittle a bro, but .. FFS.
    You sound like a girl who’s just blown a week’s wages (your wages, that is!) on some fucking cushions or shit asking you not to be “cwoss wiv mee”.

    Ok. I’ll have a go. Run. Like. Fuck. Away.
    Go dark. Anything else is collaboration.

    You are enabling this succubus.

    YOU are actively prolonging her spiral into (if she’s as bad as you make out) eventual detention, getting sectioned, self-destruction, whatever.
    Or worse, somebody else being on the receiving end of her enormous, invincible self-absorption.
    The more drawn out the descent, the worse the crater. There is no way back for this kid, and a responsible friend would make sure the drop is not from too great a height. That way everybody might get to walk away from the wreckage as walking-wounded at least.

    If she has any non-abusive family, a truly concerned person would RTMF at the first sign. They’re probably thinking “Well, looks like Psychina is gonna be allright, she’s all sorted with a dependable BF and everything, why did we ever worry?.. (thank fuck she’s gone ..)”.
    You have cheerfully signed the invoice for a Broken Unit, and are more concerned by the sparks singeing your beard than the (inevitable) conflagration as your house and possibly the entire block burns down. Send her away.
    She is as mad as fish, and you are keeping it that way, gottit? Get rid. Or cry.

    Shouldn’t one who wrongs another be justly dealt the hand they’ve violently prompted given?
    You asking us for permission to slap your loony GF about? Or worse? Fuck the fuck off, son. She didn’t make you shoot that smack.
    Ye gods and little fishes, self-pity on that scale makes me just hurl.

    Honest to betsy, you sound like a woman, trolling for violent misogynists.

    [I'll have me ban now please, Rollo.]

  • YaReally

    God that orbiter video of Ashley was painful to watch, especially all the nervous chuckles. Ugh, poor guy…thing is he’s probably a nice dude who would reject any Game teachings as stuff only assholes would do.

    To the guys who are approaching girls but it’s not translating to lays and you can just FEEL that there’s no sexual tension in your interactions, THIS is what it looks like to outside observers. Step up the sexuality in your game, it’s the difference between ending up like this guy and fucking the girl.

    On the subject of girls getting fat and hitting the wall and shit:

    Off the top of my head I can think of MAYBE 3 or 4 guys I hang out with who don’t work out at all and are like, obnoxiously unhealthy. The vast majority of guys I know at the very least lift some weights now and then, and a lot of them are in really good shape and workout regularly and do p90x and pay attention to their diets/nutrition etc. Hell I don’t even know many guys that smoke these days.

    But girls, shit, in any given bar there are maybe a handful of girls who actually regularly hit the gym, don’t smoke, don’t get shit-faced hammered every night, don’t wolf down unhealthy shit constantly, etc.

    It’s fine when they’re young, but their bodies go to shit by 25+. Tyler talks about this stuff in that video above, it’s really a good listen.

  • YaReally

    @Confused

    Left you a reply at Heartiste.

    @Team-Red

    “Little did I know her hamster would begin running the next day and blame me for being too aggressive, which I was.”

    Did the same thing in a similar situ. Girl I knew when I was an AFC used to tease me and keep me as an orbiter. Then I moved away and learned PUA stuff. Came back to visit and she invited me over at 3am to “hang out”. I kissed her and we made out for a while, till SHE suggested us moving to her bed. Grinded and fooled around for a bit and then she went kind of cold so I backed off. Next day we had breakfast and she drove me home, all was good.

    Couple days later her hamster pulled the 180 and she was ice cold with me and I heard through a friend that she thought I was too aggressive blah blah blah.

    Part of it is just that in her mind you’re not supposed to be THAT guy, you’re breaking out of the role/label that she’s categorized you in…and it was fun and exciting in the moment, but afterwards she’s got one reference experience of being attracted to you and years-worth of experience not being attracted to you, so her hamster rationalizes that she couldn’t possibly be into you, that must have been a mistake and a bad judgement and since you’re the one acting out of character she’ll blame you. Ideally for her, you’ll fall back into the penis-less orbiter role you’re supposed to be in and life can go back to normal for her.

    But ideally for you, you go “shrug, okay.” and go meet other girls and when she calls you 6 months later wondering why you aren’t chasing her anymore, you don’t give a fuck. :)

  • BPaul.

    As a current beta orbiter, border line AFC suffering from Oneitis. This is difficult medicine to swallow. Admitting the problem is the first step to recovery. I am currently working through the “Extinction Burst”…… its tough to see and internalize everything on the post and the comments. Yet I haven’t read a post on this blog which is untrue to my experience…..

    Many thanks!

  • Martel

    BPaul: Most of us know what it’s like: the way she runs through your head over and over, how you analyze every conversation you had and have thousands of “if only I had”‘s, the knot in your gut if you involuntarily imagine her with someone else, thinking “I know a lot of women are like that, BUT NOT HER!”

    You’ve found dudes here who will help you get over it. Its hurts, but it works.

  • immoralgables

    @BPaul

    Keep working on it. I know how you feel and it gets easier. It can be painful to look in the mirror but that is the first step.

    “The best way out is always through” – Robert Frost

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