RT, I just finished reading Playing Friends and I was wondering, what would be a good way to tell a woman that you don’t accept her “olive branch”?
Should I ever encounter this situation, I would like this tool in my arsenal. The best reply I can think of would be “That’s not a good idea” and walk away.
Any better phrases out there? What is the ideal “level” of confrontation to use?
As I said in that essay, when you do decline a LJBF a certain amount of tact has to be involved. Any overt ‘in your face’ response will prompt an equally overt confrontational response. The trick is to convey your non-acceptance of her offer in as covert a fashion as possible, but still courteous or at least “business-like.”
The first obstacle men have to get over is that LJBFs are rejections. They are not genuine offers of some kind of enduring friendship. This goes back to what I’ve written about intergender “friendships”, and a lot of AFCs get it into their heads that they’re going to buck a trend and actually be ‘besties’ with their LJBF girl. I’ve already covered most of this in that essay so I wont go back over that, but the natural inclination for most men when faced with a rejection – that most often comes after a very long period of “sniper mentality” – is to opt for the path of least resistance and certainly the one which will make him and her the least uncomfortable. Women know this. This is precisely why a LJBF has been proven so effective for generations. It gives both parties an acceptable out, or on his part, an out that at least blunts the rejection.
The Process
The problem with all this is that the LJBFed guy is caught in the process without ever having understood that he’s playing a predictable part in a feminine social convention. So he sees the LJBF as an event rather than what it really is, a feminine-approved socially permissible mechanism for rejection. As a guy gets consistent LJBFs he begins to see the process, but all this comes after having had exclusively invested himself in the LJBF girl up until the point of the rejection. This is where the “frustrated” part of AFC comes from; his investment.
That’s the first part; a man has to recognize the LJBF for what it is. This is part of the learning process because a guy has to also do some very important self-analysis at this point. Most chumps will self-evaluate and try to find flaws in their sniping. “She might have accepted me if I had done X, Y & Z to prove I’m worthy of her.” Rather, a guy ought to self-realize why he was in a potential LJBF situation in the first place. I’ll tell you now, if you got a LJBF rejection, odds are you went about the process wrong. You sniped, you pined, you most certainly placed yourself into a position of qualifying yourself to her and thus handed her the frame from the outset. As I’ve mentioned in some previous essays, you most probably believed the lie about “women needing to feel comfortable with a guy” and jumped past the uncomfortable sexual tension of attraction directly into the comfort of rapport and familiarity.
Now, I’m outlining all of this again to emphasize that any response you can give a woman issuing the LJBF rejection should be done so from a position of complete awareness. It’s not the actual words you say so much as you understand how you got to the point of a LJBF rejection. In other words you are most likely, at least partially, responsible for allowing it to get to the point of you having to counter-reject her LJBF.
“No, thanks.”
So then how do you go about it? Some have offered the blunt “I have enough friends” line, but you’ll deal with the social fallout of such an overt counter-rejection and most likely get the “you’re an asshole response”. Depending on how comfortable you are with that I’d say it’s fair game, but don’t expect her not to behave like this. Women’s easiest recourse at that point would be to think all you were interested in was fucking her. I realize how shitty that seems, particularly when most guy’s getting the LJBF are there after having tried for months to get to the point of pressing the issue of intimacy and applying all the effort and personal investments (not limited to just missing other better opportunities). How could she possibly come to the conclusion that all you wanted was to get in her pants? It’s her only social acceptable, ego-preserving recourse, despite all you did to “prove” yourself up to then.
There’s couple of better ways however. One is allowing her to deliver the LJBF and let it roll off. You don’t have to be a prick and say “thanks, but no thanks.” You could simply let the rejection go and strategically withdraw – so long as you think you can do so. Cut off all contact and move on to spinning plates as you should have been anyway. This is simple pragmatism, if not a bit introverted, but the end result is the same – she gets the message that you’re no longer wasting yourself on her as a cause.
The other way is a the assertive counter rejection. This is not an overt “I have enough friends” response, but rather a drawing of attention to the social contrivance she’s using and explaining it to her in direct terms.
After her LJBF, you can say, “I really wish I could be your friend, but I’d really thought we meant more to each other than that after so long, and honestly, I’m looking for more. Sorry, but I guess I was wrong about you.”
I wouldn’t use this verbatim as some kind of script to follow, but this approach effectively puts the onus of the rejection back on her and makes her aware of the LJBF as a rejection. It’s very similar to a neg hit in that it puts her into a position of not qualifying for your own intimacy. The idea is to defuse any “he just wanted to fuck me” ideas and draw attention to it as a rejection. The problem with a LJBFs as a social convention for women is that it’s gotten to a point where it’s a default, autonomous response, and not a real rejection of intimacy. It’s become such a useful tool that women no longer understand the latent function of it. When they’re made aware of it, in a responsible way, recognizing the rejection aspect is unavoidable. In a rational world it’s a Man’s responsibility to approach, initiate, be decisive, etc. with a woman, it should be incumbent on a woman to give him a straight rejection or acceptance of his approach. Unfortunately not all of us are mature enough at any given stage to do so, so we develop social contingencies to cope with uncomfortable circumstance.
Go Dark
All this said, even after delivering an assertive counter, you MUST stick to your choice. You can only walk away with your self-respect and her own respect for as far as you’re willing to follow through with it. Cut off attention, focus on other things, take some time for yourself, analyze how you came to be in the LJBF position, etc.
She will try to get you back as a friend (see: beta orbiter), for her own ego preservation if nothing else. Do not allow this. It’s not her punishment, it’s not spite, it simple utility. The longer you entertain her the longer you will be paralyzed. You will be in limbo because you refuse to see her behaviors are her message, not her words. When extinguishing a behavior, in behavioral psychology, subjects universally attempt novel behaviors in order to reestablish a previous reward / reinforcer that prompted the prior behavior. This is called an Extinction Burst. People will do this too. The AFC will step up his efforts in new ways in order to prove his merit for intimacy, and women will be flirtatious and accommodating in ways they never thought necessary in order to reestablish prior attention levels they enjoyed before a takeaway. Be prepared for this.
*This post dedicated to my ever-growing reddit following.
taterearl wrote
“Me too. Do you see how chicks treat their other chick friends? I’ve seen lions in the wild treat their prey better. Why would you want to be friends with that?”
Some minor editing here, and this may be the winning response.
“I’ve seen how you treat your friends. Why would I want to be friends with that?”
Confused:
In addition to what Furious and xsplat told you, I’d only add this: You described 4 to 6 days of nonstop hooking up. One thing I’ve seen described is that sex with a BPD is great. Consider that you might be jonesing on the superfreak sex the BPD gave you.
The hot monkey sex is not worth it. You know it isn’t worth it. You must quit this cold turkey. Turn around, run away, go dark. That is all.
personal story: LJBF’d and happless beta orbiter to this chick for 1.5 years. finally made a strong move (out of frustration) to end the friendship and point blank told her it was because i wanted to fuck her. she ends up sleeping with me and is now my insatiable gf. i was 1000% shocked. according to game theory girls “never” move you off the LJBF ladder to the sex ladder. what changed? red pill baby! upped my alpha game, hit the gym, started attracting/sleeping with other girls. when we did finally hookup she initially did it “just to get it… Read more »
personal story: LJBF’d and happless beta orbiter to this chick for 1.5 years. finally made a strong move (out of frustration) to end the friendship and point blank told her it was because i wanted to fuck her. she ends up sleeping with me and is now my insatiable gf. i was 1000% shocked. according to game theory girls “never” move you off the LJBF ladder to the sex ladder. what changed? red pill baby! upped my alpha game, hit the gym, started attracting/sleeping with other girls. when we did finally hookup she initially did it “just to get it… Read more »
That’s a good analysis. Personally, when I used to get LJBFs, I would employ the ‘go dark’ route. Interestingly enough, the past couple years I haven’t gotten a single LJBF. Either the girl was DTF within 3 dates max, we never spoke again after the 1st date, or there was never a date to begin with. I still wonder why the change happened.
BPaul, The Pua Community has always had the saying for AFCs with Oneitis “go out an fuck 10 other girls.” Read Lovedrop’s archives at the A.S.F. site. He would always stress (from 2001 to 2005) “that its never ABOUT ANY ONE GIRL, ITS ABOUT SKILLS!!!” Internalize that. I had the most massive bout of oneitis for a 9.3 blond when I was an AFC. After learning seduction (I hate the word “game”, its infantile), I used one of the best tactics with girls that LJBFed you : MAKE HER A PIVOT AND USE HER TO GET OTHER GIRLS. I ended… Read more »
Watched Dr.Phil, episode was about a group of woman who were duped by a man online who turned out to be a woman (26 were duped, 4 appeared on the show but one via phone call). These woman actually thought they were in a relationship with this “man” based on nothing but online conversations and a few photos.
Based on the video evidence, I think Our Darling Ashes might actually be a sweet girl when not in the company of pool monsters and new ideas.
Duly noted.
Smile’s a little gummy, though.
Rollo said any guy who does this is a “prick”, but the best response I’ve seen to anything like this is, “No thanks” and then directing your attention to something more interesting, like your phone.
The problem for some guys though is that they’ll be so hurt or pissed or whatever by being LFBFed, that they’ll say this from a place of anger. Don’t be angry, just say nonchalantly, “No thanks” and that’s it. As if someone was offering you a granola bar, and you just don’t feel like eating it.
@Wilf “http://www.thegridto.com/timewasters/dating-diaries/clare-and-eli/ It involves a lawyer chick who goes on a date with a guy who she thinks is really nice and funny until he doesn’t agree with everything she says, play nice and suck up in order to get laid. Her telling of the story is comedy gold. Ha! I’m loving these Red Pill side effects.” Note how she says, “Later, he stopped dead in his tracks, leaned me into a fence, and kissed me. He also tried to put his hand down the front of my pants, but I stopped him”, which begs the question, why didn’t she… Read more »
My experience has been in that 90% of my significant relationships, the ones that lasted more than even a month, including my marriage, began with the woman fucking me on the first date. It was obvious that she both accepted me and was genuinely attracted to me and she showed it with an actual investment. My rule that I gained through experience, particularly within the last 5 years is that if the woman does not sleep with you on the first date, then you have an 80% probability that this is going nowhere. If not after the second date, then… Read more »
Owen Cook of RSD makes *a few* good points about a particular type of young woman, but what strikes me as odd is that he is in California and considers himself, in his own words, ” a sober, switched on guy” and yet he is STILL hanging out with those types of women. The state of California is of particular note because that is the state with the highest rate of health conscious and spiritually “switched on” men AND women. Its the new age mecca of the US; Buddhism, yoga, vedanta, ayurveda, etc are all flourishing there and he’s still… Read more »
YaReally, also around the 20 mark Owen asks his audience if anyone has kids and if so if they have “good baby mamas” or “problem baby mamas”. Then he goes on to say that he’s got a “good baby mama” and describes that as “comes from a ‘good’ family (whatever that means), goes to the gym, goes to school, takes care of the kids and has ‘family values’ “. However he then goes on to describe her, his baby’ mama’s, friends who go to bars, get drunk and then fuck various men. I’m wondering if any of the bros in… Read more »
@xplat, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I’ve scoured these blogs and others for advice and a receptive audience.
I know who you’re referring to, as I’ve read through his accounts too. I know him personally as well. Not the same guy. Heroin is your assumption, far from the truth. He’s clean & no longer a part of this ‘community’.
I appreciate the correct advice as offered above from ff. More would be appreciated. Typos were due to using a phone.
Tried to post a brief response to xplat being wrong. Doesnt know what he’s talking about. Typos are from an iPhone. That question I asked autocorrected into strange wording.
I figured it out, I know the GTFO route is right. I just needed one night of confusion and drinking to get my mind back after witnessing what I did.
The scam..
http://www.france24.com/en/20121130-strauss-kahn-diallo-settle-court-sex-case-new-york
Confused and Was Confused, you gave me a confusing answer. Did you figure out yet that I had metaphorically alluded to your attraction to your BPD girl as an addiction and to her as heroin? I was not accusing anyone of taking actual heroin.
“Could we break up and start everything again as friends because you are my best friend?”
Dear lord.
@Martel – Thanks, nice to know its not just happening to me. If I was to describe the situation she has a lot of beta orbiters (that I know of) that are married. I believe at this point she is really attracted to one of them. @ImmoralGables – Working on game everyday on everyone I can, thats how I got to “went dark”, then “Extinction Burst”, just didn’t know that existed, thought she was coming around with her communication flirtations and “missing me” business, but now I will be cautious, we meet after 2 month “break” next week. @dean –… Read more »
Men love femme fatales. Seriel killer and Charles Manson’s right hand woman, Susan “Sadie” Atkins married twice and got pregnant in jail, one of those times to her LAWYER, and received countless love letters from men on the outside.
Like so many others, I think this blog is great. As a new follower, I would benefit greatly if someone could post a glossary of abbreviations. When I see AFC, ASD, LTR, LJBF, LMR, FNL, SMV, PUA, etc., I find it difficult to both seek out meanings to all of these while trying to follow the post itself.
You guys have to check out “girlwriteswhat” — a Canadian vlogger, antifeminist, seems to really get it, I’m basing my judgment on having seen just a few of her talks so far. I recommend: “Look out! It’s a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM!” — analysis of the irrational knot feminists have tied themselves into over ‘nice guys’ “No one wants to talk about Anders Breivik” — feminism is responsible for Breivik “Atheism, you asked for it” — why the atheist community is increasingly suffering the consequences of too many of its members forgetting what atheism is really all about and her… Read more »
@Lion:
AFC- Average Frustrated Chump
ASD- Anti Slut Defense
LTR- Long Term Relationship
SMV- Sexual Market Value
LJBF- Let’s Just Be Friends
PUA- Pick Up Artist
LMR- Last Minute Resistance
FNL- I believe this is “Friday Night Lights” but I may be wrong
A girl i’m gaming, met, an escalated with started to get scared by how turned on she was with me after just meeting me in person after chatting online. She waffled between firing questions like “Do you still believe in marriage?” To which I replied, “Gay marriage? Sure”… To then switching to “I think you’re not my type but we could be friends, i’m looking for a serious relationship”. In other words, the “friends” thing was beta bait and a shit-test. I didn’t reply to anything and in fact just kept changing the subject to things of interest to me… Read more »
@acehaley:
Thank you for posting a glossary. I’ve made a note of them. From the notes I managed to collect, I believe FNL is “First Night Lay.”
Anyone know what the following are?
SMP
AMOG
Men love femme fatales. Seriel killer and Charles Manson’s right hand woman, Susan “Sadie” Atkins married twice and got pregnant in jail, one of those times to her LAWYER, and received countless love letters from men on the outside.
sounds like a plan then. start with your coworkers in the call center.
“A girl i’m gaming, met, an escalated with started to get scared by how turned on she was with me after just meeting me in person after chatting online.”
Let me guess: you’re a black man and she’s a white woman, right?
Those musky African pheromones do it to them all the time.
(The pheromones of other races of men are not nearly as strong.
Black pheromones have the power to trigger deep, repressed, almost forgotten evoluntionary reactions in women).
I vote for “Yeah, that sounds cool. Whoa! Check out the tits on that girl over there, wouldn’t you love to get one of those in your mouth? Hey, wanna go that new strip club on Friday?!”
Here’s a little short comment. NO COUNTRY FOR OLD VALUES. ————— “You always pay too much. Particularly for promises. There aint no such thing as a bargain promise.” ― Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men —————- It’s a moot point for the readers of this blog and others. You’re here because of it. The price of your promises has become what appears to be a bad bargain. The price of meeting and forming relationships with women, emotionally, financially, in what you pay in your self respect, and the bad treatment you receive from them, has increased phenomenally in recent… Read more »
Relative newcomers to this scene (not to mention total neophytes) may be somewhat stunned by Mark Minter. Perhaps you are tempted to dismiss him outright. But I ask you to consider that what he says, and what he obviously feels, are entirely reasonable end results of a male life lived through a particular time and culture. What kind of cultural circumstances could have produced a Mark Minter? The answers are all round the Internet these days, as you can plainly see; but a very compressed, rational, and very quickly digestible account of it all is available in the video blog… Read more »
I highly recommend listening to Adagio for Strings by Samuel Barber while reading Mark Minters above post. You’ll understand why.
I don’t even dare to tackle Mark’s latest novel yet, but in the meantime: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241747/Naomi-Hampson-27-raped-somnophilliac-boyfriend-Robert-Fryer-SLEEP-2-years.html Not in any way condoning what the f*cker has done — moreover, as you don’t need a dominant frame when you’re doing it “behind her back”, so to say, whatever his mental condition — but the tone of the article and the commentary is sooo expected. One is compelled to even double-check that it wasn’t some sort of a satirical piece, but you don’t need to make this sh1t up, this is the level of thinking that abounds. The “Worst rated” (of course) comments are… Read more »
For OlioOx or similar voice praise for Mark Minter. A common point is said to read what he feels and experience and to understand him rather than dismiss him. It is boosted by such praise including Rollo himself to take his epically long posts seriously. My question is how serious? To understand him or to what degree we should take his lessons. To understand him to how he feels is useful and instructive. But the praise from commenter and Rollo himself seems to indicate to take on more. Yet, his messaging seems to scream nuance should be taken. I’m not… Read more »
I agree with Mark based on his observations, but obviously I can’t cosign everything. I do find love, value, respect and genuine desire in Mrs. Tomassi, so I can see a net positive from marriage. I don’t want to propose I have some albino unicorn of a marriage; it has in the past and (with reduced frequency) does wrok for some people, but I maintain my marriage with full knowledge and understanding of the risks and the machinations behind what it’s become. I wouldn’t be married if I didn’t want to be. That said, even as a happily married Man… Read more »
Naturally everyone should apply Marks insights in a way that suits his present journey in improving himself, but his posts act most importantly as a very true caveat for any future development in a relationship. That you should plan your journey bearing in mind the possibilities of derailment if your own goal is lost to her frame taking over. Marks posts distill (if that is the correct word for a 6000-word essay) the essence of male-female relationships from a perspective that has seen what the worst of Them can lead to if given the hypergamic opportunity. I personally can and… Read more »
[…] DJ Damage had an interesting question regarding last week’s post and the time-tested classic LJBF […]
This is SO enlightening! Even the comments! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I could graduate from space camp in less than 3 months if I dedicated all my waking hours to reading all the posts and comments and taking notes. I wonder why a man doesn’t just straight up tell the women – oh, wait, I get it. They’ve not taken the red pill. OK, and why is it that men who have unplugged don’t enlighten women like me – oh, wait, because it is the Ego’s psychological imperative to be right and it’s pointless to tell someone something… Read more »
I just read Mark Minter’s long comment and was aching ……. Do what is right for you (all men). It is unfortunate people have to go around wearing armor but it is what it is until it is not. I think it’s just an evolutionary imperative that the female power is arising at this point of our evolution (already predicted thousands of years before) to balance out energy fields of the predominant patriarchal systems throughout history. Things tend to come back and bite us in the ass – karmically. The witches did not die in vain. But everything’s going to… Read more »
It’s a great read indeed, it amazingly fits a situation I’ve had recently. The thing is that this girl gave strong signals of being into me, so much that even as I had my doubts, other friends from our social group believed there was ‘something’ between us. She dropped her needy and obsesive bf then came strongly into me, so I got a liking to her, but then I saw what was coming. One day, on facebook -lol- she said the terrible, terrible line: ‘we’ve got to talk’ as soon as I opened it at 2 AM. She told me… Read more »
@BPaul
Trust me bro, you gotta walk away. Did it to my ex and it was one of the most empowering albiet hardest thing i did in my life
[…] funny how a LJBF rejection serves as a convenient means to uphold the identification with being a “good person”. […]
Too many dudes try to relate to women like they would to their male friends. A female’s perspective is entirely different than your own. Treat her like a woman, not a man.
http://welcometothelifestyle.wordpress.com/2013/02/23/relating-from-man-to-woman/
[…] Friends Like These […]
This post along with the comment has opened my eyes more that any other site or book, i am (or was) one of the guys thinking I can be a girl’s besties. In fact, I am about to meet a girl who obv friend zoned me but use me as tempon and tech support later today and probably gonna tell me about her date with another dude too. Not anymore, if she does tell me that, I will just tell her she should talk to one of her girlfriend instead. Probably too late to turn around too but as least… Read more »
[…] done posts in the past about the utility LJBF rejections mean to women, men’s Beta Game tactics of Playing Friends in the hopes of […]
Oh man do I feel like a chump after my post in Playing Friends. Well, kind of. I actually *was* devastated but that’s part of the process. I had a great talk with my friend today. He set me straight in a direct but gentle way. He’s her brother and basically told me that my perception of her was not real — I was dancing with my perception of her, which was her silhouette — which really meant I was just dancing with myself. She would probably just be playing Xbox and pulling gum off of her shoe while I… Read more »
One more: I have a thick skull. Glenn in another thread tried to snap me out of it and failed because my skull is just that thick. I will thank him again though if he ever sees this, because I now realize what he was saying. The thing is I needed a slap in the face from my ONE-itis fixation, the girl I’ve been in love with for so many years and had the blue pill fantasy with — wanting to be with her forever. The girl that LJBF’d me, that I’ve been friends with for 10 years…I just messaged… Read more »
If the woman is really attractive and you want to attract other females, and you are ‘over her’, it’s pretty wise to actually bring her back in you life as ‘just a friend’. Then, you should make sure you are seen in public a lot with her, as it will convey the message to the females that this is a guy you should get. You will have the best of both worlds: You are single AND you have a beautiful girl next to you who is willing to let you sleep with other girls. Even better if you never had… Read more »
[…] she was a gorgeous auburn-red head with a fantastic 17-18 year old body. We were good ‘friends‘ in the sense that it was clear I wasn’t ever going to see her naked and she had all of […]
[…] run on them, then you can share to your heart’s content – and will always be on the LJBF […]
Great advice and writing. Thank you again.
[…] Marc878 is online now Quote Quick Reply post #610 of 610 (permalink) Old Today, 06:24 PM helolover Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 369 Re: Feeling like crap today with separation Let's just be friends (LJBF) = rejection […]
Friends?
Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears. – Marcus Aurelius
Life is a succession of lessons, which must be lived to be understood. – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reblogged this on eghost247.
I was recently in a ljbf situation.Ive been friends with her for a while. Ive made a few moves and got rejected but she continued to want to hang out. I told her straight up that i was interested and she said she didn’t see me as more than a friend. I told her that i didn’t want to be just friends i also said that Im not gonna be one of her girlfriends. I then said if you change your mind give me a call. Lets just say she was more than pissed. She said so you’re just gonna… Read more »
Excellent. It’s good to see a man stick to his resolve. Women hate this response because it’s a hit to their ego. All but the most brutally pragmatic of women will see this response as an insult and/or a slight because they were hoping that guy would “just get it” and self-select himself out of her consideration. Instead she’s not only forced to give him a rejection (she thought would be contrite) but has to be made self-conscious of it by his rejection of her disingenuous counter-offer of “friendship”. The solution to this is ego protection for her, so you… Read more »
@Jorge A NEXT is always the right thing when you’ve established you’re not gonna get what you want, so good job learning that lesson. If you want to let them down a tad easier (no need to burn a bridge if you don’t have to) explain it simply as neither of you getting what you want out of continuing to be around each other. Something along the lines of “I wouldn’t be getting the romantic relationship I wanted, and you wouldn’t have the “just friends” friend you wanted. It would be a fake friendship built on lies. Neither of us… Read more »
[…] Friends Like These […]