Friends Like These

RT, I just finished reading Playing Friends and I was wondering, what would be a good way to tell a woman that you don’t accept her “olive branch”?

Should I ever encounter this situation, I would like this tool in my arsenal. The best reply I can think of would be “That’s not a good idea” and walk away.

Any better phrases out there? What is the ideal “level” of confrontation to use?

As I said in that essay, when you do decline a LJBF a certain amount of tact has to be involved. Any overt ‘in your face’ response will prompt an equally overt confrontational response. The trick is to convey your non-acceptance of her offer in as covert a fashion as possible, but still courteous or at least “business-like.”

The first obstacle men have to get over is that LJBFs are rejections. They are not genuine offers of some kind of enduring friendship. This goes back to what I’ve written about intergender “friendships”, and a lot of AFCs get it into their heads that they’re going to buck a trend and actually be ‘besties’ with their LJBF girl. I’ve already covered most of this in that essay so I wont go back over that, but the natural inclination for most men when faced with a rejection – that most often comes after a very long period of “sniper mentality” – is to opt for the path of least resistance and certainly the one which will make him and her the least uncomfortable. Women know this. This is precisely why a LJBF has been proven so effective for generations. It gives both parties an acceptable out, or on his part, an out that at least blunts the rejection.

The Process

The problem with all this is that the LJBFed guy is caught in the process without ever having understood that he’s playing a predictable part in a feminine social convention. So he sees the LJBF as an event rather than what it really is, a feminine-approved socially permissible mechanism for rejection. As a guy gets consistent LJBFs he begins to see the process, but all this comes after having had exclusively invested himself in the LJBF girl up until the point of the rejection. This is where the “frustrated” part of AFC comes from; his investment.

That’s the first part; a man has to recognize the LJBF for what it is. This is part of the learning process because a guy has to also do some very important self-analysis at this point. Most chumps will self-evaluate and try to find flaws in their sniping. “She might have accepted me if I had done X, Y & Z to prove I’m worthy of her.” Rather, a guy ought to self-realize why he was in a potential LJBF situation in the first place. I’ll tell you now, if you got a LJBF rejection, odds are you went about the process wrong. You sniped, you pined, you most certainly placed yourself into a position of qualifying yourself to her and thus handed her the frame from the outset. As I’ve mentioned in some previous essays, you most probably believed the lie about “women needing to feel comfortable with a guy” and jumped past the uncomfortable sexual tension of attraction directly into the comfort of rapport and familiarity.

Now, I’m outlining all of this again to emphasize that any response you can give a woman issuing the LJBF rejection should be done so from a position of complete awareness. It’s not the actual words you say so much as you understand how you got to the point of a LJBF rejection. In other words you are most likely, at least partially, responsible for allowing it to get to the point of you having to counter-reject her LJBF.

“No, thanks.”

So then how do you go about it? Some have offered the blunt “I have enough friends” line, but you’ll deal with the social fallout of such an overt counter-rejection and most likely get the “you’re an asshole response”. Depending on how comfortable you are with that I’d say it’s fair game, but don’t expect her not to behave like this. Women’s easiest recourse at that point would be to think all you were interested in was fucking her. I realize how shitty that seems, particularly when most guy’s getting the LJBF are there after having tried for months to get to the point of pressing the issue of intimacy and applying all the effort and personal investments (not limited to just missing other better opportunities). How could she possibly come to the conclusion that all you wanted was to get in her pants? It’s her only social acceptable, ego-preserving recourse, despite all you did to “prove” yourself up to then.

There’s couple of better ways however. One is allowing her to deliver the LJBF and let it roll off. You don’t have to be a prick and say “thanks, but no thanks.” You could simply let the rejection go and strategically withdraw – so long as you think you can do so. Cut off all contact and move on to spinning plates as you should have been anyway. This is simple pragmatism, if not a bit introverted, but the end result is the same – she gets the message that you’re no longer wasting yourself on her as a cause.

The other way is a the assertive counter rejection. This is not an overt “I have enough friends” response, but rather a drawing of attention to the social contrivance she’s using and explaining it to her in direct terms.

After her LJBF, you can say, “I really wish I could be your friend, but I’d really thought we meant more to each other than that after so long, and honestly, I’m looking for more. Sorry, but I guess I was wrong about you.”

I wouldn’t use this verbatim as some kind of script to follow, but this approach effectively puts the onus of the rejection back on her and makes her aware of the LJBF as a rejection. It’s very similar to a neg hit in that it puts her into a position of not qualifying for your own intimacy. The idea is to defuse any “he just wanted to fuck me” ideas and draw attention to it as a rejection. The problem with a LJBFs as a social convention for women is that it’s gotten to a point where it’s a default, autonomous response, and not a real rejection of intimacy. It’s become such a useful tool that women no longer understand the latent function of it. When they’re made aware of it, in a responsible way, recognizing the rejection aspect is unavoidable. In a rational world it’s a Man’s responsibility to approach, initiate, be decisive, etc. with a woman, it should be incumbent on a woman to give him a straight rejection or acceptance of his approach. Unfortunately not all of us are mature enough at any given stage to do so, so we develop social contingencies to cope with uncomfortable circumstance.

Go Dark

All this said, even after delivering an assertive counter, you MUST stick to your choice. You can only walk away with your self-respect and her own respect for as far as you’re willing to follow through with it. Cut off attention, focus on other things, take some time for yourself, analyze how you came to be in the LJBF position, etc.

She will try to get you back as a friend (see: beta orbiter), for her own ego preservation if nothing else. Do not allow this. It’s not her punishment, it’s not spite, it simple utility. The longer you entertain her the longer you will be paralyzed. You will be in limbo because you refuse to see her behaviors are her message, not her words. When extinguishing a behavior, in behavioral psychology, subjects universally attempt novel behaviors in order to reestablish a previous reward / reinforcer that prompted the prior behavior. This is called an Extinction Burst. People will do this too. The AFC will step up his efforts in new ways in order to prove his merit for intimacy, and women will be flirtatious and accommodating in ways they never thought necessary in order to reestablish prior attention levels they enjoyed before a takeaway. Be prepared for this.

*This post dedicated to my ever-growing reddit following.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

159 comments on “Friends Like These

  1. taterearl wrote

    “Me too. Do you see how chicks treat their other chick friends? I’ve seen lions in the wild treat their prey better. Why would you want to be friends with that?”

    Some minor editing here, and this may be the winning response.

    “I’ve seen how you treat your friends. Why would I want to be friends with that?”

  2. Confused:

    In addition to what Furious and xsplat told you, I’d only add this: You described 4 to 6 days of nonstop hooking up. One thing I’ve seen described is that sex with a BPD is great. Consider that you might be jonesing on the superfreak sex the BPD gave you.

    The hot monkey sex is not worth it. You know it isn’t worth it. You must quit this cold turkey. Turn around, run away, go dark. That is all.

  3. personal story:

    LJBF’d and happless beta orbiter to this chick for 1.5 years. finally made a strong move (out of frustration) to end the friendship and point blank told her it was because i wanted to fuck her. she ends up sleeping with me and is now my insatiable gf.

    i was 1000% shocked. according to game theory girls “never” move you off the LJBF ladder to the sex ladder.

    what changed? red pill baby! upped my alpha game, hit the gym, started attracting/sleeping with other girls. when we did finally hookup she initially did it “just to get it out of the way and save our friendship”. i tore her up in bed and now she’s hooked and in love with me.

    just goes to show how powerful alpha behavior and pre-selection can be. she is still trying to figure out “how did all of this happen?” spin hamster spin!

  4. personal story:

    LJBF’d and happless beta orbiter to this chick for 1.5 years. finally made a strong move (out of frustration) to end the friendship and point blank told her it was because i wanted to fuck her. she ends up sleeping with me and is now my insatiable gf.

    i was 1000% shocked. according to game theory girls “never” move you off the LJBF ladder to the sex ladder.

    what changed? red pill baby! upped my alpha game, hit the gym, started attracting/sleeping with other girls. when we did finally hookup she initially did it “just to get it out of the way and save our friendship”. i tore her up in bed and now she’s hooked and in love with me.

    just goes to show how powerful alpha behavior and pre-selection can be. she is still trying to figure out “how did all of this happen?” spin hamster spin!

  5. That’s a good analysis. Personally, when I used to get LJBFs, I would employ the ‘go dark’ route. Interestingly enough, the past couple years I haven’t gotten a single LJBF. Either the girl was DTF within 3 dates max, we never spoke again after the 1st date, or there was never a date to begin with. I still wonder why the change happened.

  6. BPaul,

    The Pua Community has always had the saying for AFCs with Oneitis “go out an fuck 10 other girls.”

    Read Lovedrop’s archives at the A.S.F. site. He would always stress (from 2001 to 2005) “that its never ABOUT ANY ONE GIRL, ITS ABOUT SKILLS!!!” Internalize that.

    I had the most massive bout of oneitis for a 9.3 blond when I was an AFC. After learning seduction (I hate the word “game”, its infantile), I used one of the best tactics with girls that LJBFed you : MAKE HER A PIVOT AND USE HER TO GET OTHER GIRLS.

    I ended up fucking one of her best friends and using her to hook up with 2 other girls. Guess what? In the end I DIDN’T EVEN WANT TO TRY TO SEDUCE HER. Why? Because I had better options.

    Also, let me remind you of what the PUA Juggler used to say (Juggler was one of the most mature of the original PUAs). He used to say that it is not worth it (98 % of the time) to try to seduce former oneitis girls. Why? Because you built THAT relationship on a FLAWED FOUNDATION. Its very hard if not impossible to rebuild the foundation the right way. Why bother? You do realize that a new lover, fuck buddy, plate or exclusive girlfriend is just a 10-15 minute conversation away? Hell, you could approach 20 girls in one Saturday afternoon if you start at say 12pm and go for a few hours. Heck, you could even instadate a few of them. And if you get really good, you could even get a SAME DAY LAY. It happened to me two months ago for the first time.

    My point: understand of the gold key points about seduction (“game” if you want). To get good with women focus on your SKILLS not on any individual woman. And remember Ross Jeffries golden rule: if you can treat every experience as a learning one, and divorce outcome from process, you will be ahead of the majority of other men. Become outcome independent. I can’t tell you how much that will change your life, with women and work and everything.

    Good luck.

  7. Watched Dr.Phil, episode was about a group of woman who were duped by a man online who turned out to be a woman (26 were duped, 4 appeared on the show but one via phone call). These woman actually thought they were in a relationship with this “man” based on nothing but online conversations and a few photos.

  8. Based on the video evidence, I think Our Darling Ashes might actually be a sweet girl when not in the company of pool monsters and new ideas.

    Duly noted.

    Smile’s a little gummy, though.

  9. Rollo said any guy who does this is a “prick”, but the best response I’ve seen to anything like this is, “No thanks” and then directing your attention to something more interesting, like your phone.

    The problem for some guys though is that they’ll be so hurt or pissed or whatever by being LFBFed, that they’ll say this from a place of anger. Don’t be angry, just say nonchalantly, “No thanks” and that’s it. As if someone was offering you a granola bar, and you just don’t feel like eating it.

  10. @Wilf “http://www.thegridto.com/timewasters/dating-diaries/clare-and-eli/

    It involves a lawyer chick who goes on a date with a guy who she thinks is really nice and funny until he doesn’t agree with everything she says, play nice and suck up in order to get laid.

    Her telling of the story is comedy gold. Ha! I’m loving these Red Pill side effects.”

    Note how she says, “Later, he stopped dead in his tracks, leaned me into a fence, and kissed me. He also tried to put his hand down the front of my pants, but I stopped him”, which begs the question, why didn’t she stop him from kissing her if she was so repulsed by him? Why did she allow it get to the ‘hand down pants’ point? My guess is she hooked up with him that night and now she feels like a slut, hence the online diatribe.

  11. My experience has been in that 90% of my significant relationships, the ones that lasted more than even a month, including my marriage, began with the woman fucking me on the first date. It was obvious that she both accepted me and was genuinely attracted to me and she showed it with an actual investment.

    My rule that I gained through experience, particularly within the last 5 years is that if the woman does not sleep with you on the first date, then you have an 80% probability that this is going nowhere. If not after the second date, then you have a 95% probability, after the third then it is 99%.

    If you can’t get immediate acceptance for even a date or some situation where the women will pair off with you without other people around, then you have a 99.99% probability that this going nowhere.

    What else do you need to know? I believe she makes about 99% of her assessment with most men in her first glance that is based on both physical, financial, and social evaluation as to whether or not you have been rejected. And I think her decision after 10 minutes of contact is pretty much final and she changes that estimation rarely, so rarely in fact, that to buck that trend is a losing proposition and it is statistically better for a man to keep moving, find another target.

    And any flaking behavior, any lack of attention, any delay in accepting or returning messages or calls, anything other than that woman taking the bull by the horns and quickly proceeding through the initial steps of the relationship to get to a physical level is covert communication by her to you that she isn’t in to you in the way that you wish her to be.

    And any attempt to try to be worthy, to show her that you are that special prince she seeks, just that she just hasn’t realized it yet, is wasted time and your inability to accept that you have been judged and rejected by her hypergamous system of selection.

    Do not even waste another breath or even the microvoltage required by your brain to continue to even think about this woman, much less your precious time. Physical attraction is a lottery. It has bad odds for most players of the game. Play more often and you increase the chances of winning.

    There is no “One”, no special princess soul mate. There are only more targets. Women give you what you want from them or you reject them. Accept no second class status from any woman ever again.

    They fuck you or you forget them. As quickly as she dismissed you, then you dismiss her.

    She is a parasite of your work, your time, and your energy. If you are not getting compensation, and you are not getting it immediately, then you are getting the crap end of the deal.

    Next!!!

  12. Owen Cook of RSD makes *a few* good points about a particular type of young woman, but what strikes me as odd is that he is in California and considers himself, in his own words, ” a sober, switched on guy” and yet he is STILL hanging out with those types of women. The state of California is of particular note because that is the state with the highest rate of health conscious and spiritually “switched on” men AND women.

    Its the new age mecca of the US; Buddhism, yoga, vedanta, ayurveda, etc are all flourishing there and he’s still hanging out with stupid mainstream American women in bars? What the fuck?

    SEXUAL MARXISM:
    The belief that society owes me a girlfriend.

    From each according to her ability, from each according to his need.

  13. YaReally, also around the 20 mark Owen asks his audience if anyone has kids and if so if they have “good baby mamas” or “problem baby mamas”. Then he goes on to say that he’s got a “good baby mama” and describes that as “comes from a ‘good’ family (whatever that means), goes to the gym, goes to school, takes care of the kids and has ‘family values’ “.

    However he then goes on to describe her, his baby’ mama’s, friends who go to bars, get drunk and then fuck various men.

    I’m wondering if any of the bros in the audience were brained enough to ask him at the end “isn’t that exactly how you met YOUR baby mama?….In a bar, drinking and fucking? And if your baby mama is ‘good’ and has ‘family values’ then what the hell is she doing a “baby mama” and not a MARRIED WIFE and what the hell is she doing with “friends” who are skanks????”

    But I suspect all the guys in the audience don’t have the IQ or at least basic human insight for such questions to even enter their minds.

    The fruit never falls far from the tree.

  14. @xplat, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    I’ve scoured these blogs and others for advice and a receptive audience.

    I know who you’re referring to, as I’ve read through his accounts too. I know him personally as well. Not the same guy. Heroin is your assumption, far from the truth. He’s clean & no longer a part of this ‘community’.

    I appreciate the correct advice as offered above from ff. More would be appreciated. Typos were due to using a phone.

  15. Tried to post a brief response to xplat being wrong. Doesnt know what he’s talking about. Typos are from an iPhone. That question I asked autocorrected into strange wording.

    I figured it out, I know the GTFO route is right. I just needed one night of confusion and drinking to get my mind back after witnessing what I did.

  16. Confused and Was Confused, you gave me a confusing answer. Did you figure out yet that I had metaphorically alluded to your attraction to your BPD girl as an addiction and to her as heroin? I was not accusing anyone of taking actual heroin.

  17. “Could we break up and start everything again as friends because you are my best friend?”

    Dear lord.

  18. @Martel – Thanks, nice to know its not just happening to me. If I was to describe the situation she has a lot of beta orbiters (that I know of) that are married. I believe at this point she is really attracted to one of them.

    @ImmoralGables – Working on game everyday on everyone I can, thats how I got to “went dark”, then “Extinction Burst”, just didn’t know that existed, thought she was coming around with her communication flirtations and “missing me” business, but now I will be cautious, we meet after 2 month “break” next week.

    @dean – Thank for the great advice, the PIVOT reminds me of the Seinfeld where Jerry wanted to seduce the roommate, I suppose not caring about the outcome is what would make that work.

  19. Men love femme fatales. Seriel killer and Charles Manson’s right hand woman, Susan “Sadie” Atkins married twice and got pregnant in jail, one of those times to her LAWYER, and received countless love letters from men on the outside.

  20. Like so many others, I think this blog is great. As a new follower, I would benefit greatly if someone could post a glossary of abbreviations. When I see AFC, ASD, LTR, LJBF, LMR, FNL, SMV, PUA, etc., I find it difficult to both seek out meanings to all of these while trying to follow the post itself.

  21. You guys have to check out “girlwriteswhat” — a Canadian vlogger, antifeminist, seems to really get it, I’m basing my judgment on having seen just a few of her talks so far. I recommend:

    “Look out! It’s a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM!” — analysis of the irrational knot feminists have tied themselves into over ‘nice guys’

    “No one wants to talk about Anders Breivik” — feminism is responsible for Breivik

    “Atheism, you asked for it” — why the atheist community is increasingly suffering the consequences of too many of its members forgetting what atheism is really all about

    and her most popular video, “Feminism and the Disposable Male”

    Her chan:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat/videos?view=0

  22. @Lion:

    AFC- Average Frustrated Chump
    ASD- Anti Slut Defense
    LTR- Long Term Relationship
    SMV- Sexual Market Value
    LJBF- Let’s Just Be Friends
    PUA- Pick Up Artist
    LMR- Last Minute Resistance
    FNL- I believe this is “Friday Night Lights” but I may be wrong

  23. A girl i’m gaming, met, an escalated with started to get scared by how turned on she was with me after just meeting me in person after chatting online.

    She waffled between firing questions like “Do you still believe in marriage?”

    To which I replied, “Gay marriage? Sure”…

    To then switching to “I think you’re not my type but we could be friends, i’m looking for a serious relationship”.

    In other words, the “friends” thing was beta bait and a shit-test.

    I didn’t reply to anything and in fact just kept changing the subject to things of interest to me or to a sexual frame.

    The LJBF thing has happened when I haven’t had a sexual frame. But the offer when there is one is a kind of shit test or ASD.

    I just kept the frame. Building comfort then escalating, then building comfort…

  24. @acehaley:

    Thank you for posting a glossary. I’ve made a note of them. From the notes I managed to collect, I believe FNL is “First Night Lay.”

    Anyone know what the following are?

    SMP
    AMOG

  25. Men love femme fatales. Seriel killer and Charles Manson’s right hand woman, Susan “Sadie” Atkins married twice and got pregnant in jail, one of those times to her LAWYER, and received countless love letters from men on the outside.

    sounds like a plan then. start with your coworkers in the call center.

  26. “A girl i’m gaming, met, an escalated with started to get scared by how turned on she was with me after just meeting me in person after chatting online.”

    Let me guess: you’re a black man and she’s a white woman, right?

    Those musky African pheromones do it to them all the time.

    (The pheromones of other races of men are not nearly as strong.
    Black pheromones have the power to trigger deep, repressed, almost forgotten evoluntionary reactions in women).

  27. I vote for “Yeah, that sounds cool. Whoa! Check out the tits on that girl over there, wouldn’t you love to get one of those in your mouth? Hey, wanna go that new strip club on Friday?!”

  28. Here’s a little short comment.

    NO COUNTRY FOR OLD VALUES.

    —————
    “You always pay too much. Particularly for promises. There aint no such thing as a bargain promise.” ― Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    —————-

    It’s a moot point for the readers of this blog and others. You’re here because of it. The price of your promises has become what appears to be a bad bargain.

    The price of meeting and forming relationships with women, emotionally, financially, in what you pay in your self respect, and the bad treatment you receive from them, has increased phenomenally in recent years. The jeopardy you expose yourself when you enter into any Long Term Relationship, most especially marriage, has become the single greatest emotional and financial threat that any man will face in his life. Societal values and social conditioning have created a false ethic, a false prescription of how you are presented with what a “new” masculinity should entail. You are attacked constantly in the culture with a narrative of men that is absolutely antagonistic to you, your essence, your goals, your strengths, your pastimes, your sexuality, everything that entails masculinity and being a man. If you wish any other type of sex other than which involves sex that is beneficiary to the female aims of having and raising children then you are a pervert. If you undertake any actions not conducive to being “useful” to women then you are immature.

    We are divided into two camps, one camp wishes to find a solution, some solution, any solution, to the issues of dealing with women, dealing with the world, getting married and staying married, not being run over in a relationship, and how to avoid divorce.

    My camp, the other camp, says you can’t and you won’t find the solution you seek and it’s time for a new strategy for men.

    I say you need more than just PUA Game techniques. More than just Red Pill awareness and a new macho attitude with your girlfriend or wife.

    I say that we have entered into an entirely new epic in social evolution and it is time for you reject almost all existing morality and conditioning.

    I am not going to pull punches in this comment in any way. In a previous comment I said your first filter of your decisions should be “I will be nobody’s fool and nobody’s slave”. That made for a soundbite. But let me take that into a more precise and more defined statement.

    “I will do only those things that are good for me. If it is also good for someone else, fine. But first, it must be good for me.”

    If that’s selfish way to be, then tough shit. Women have no problem being selfish. Why the fuck should you?

    There is a cultural test. You are on a boat that is 10 miles off the coast in rough seas. The boat is compromised and will sink. You are on the boat with your wife, your child, and your mother. There are no life jackets. None of the others can swim but you can swim well enough to save yourself and one other person.

    Who do you save?

    An Arab would say, “I would save my mother. I have other wives or can get another wife and more children. I only have one mother.”

    A western man would say, “I would save my wife. She is everything to me and I love her more than I love my mother. We can have other children.”

    A western woman would say “I would save my child”.

    And I say that we are at an epic moment in history, that you need get over your previous morality, ethnics, conditioning, beliefs, and you need to completely internalize those traits of the Dark Triad which are becoming absolutely necessary and should rule your nature and choices in everything.

    -The narcissistic personality (in the clinical sense and not the looking in the mirror sense) is characterized by a grandiose self-view, a sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, and egotism.

    -The Machiavellian personality is characterized by manipulation and exploitation of others, with a cynical disregard for morality and a focus on self-interest and dissimulation

    -The psychopathic personality, is characterized by impulsive thrill-seeking, and in its “primary” form by selfishness, callousness, lack of personal affect, superficial charm, and remorselessness.

    So did you did you get all that? Lots of “Self View, self-interest, selfishness”, and most importantly, “remorselessness”. That’s the important one. That’s the one that will give you armor, protect you from pain, from guilt, save you from being manipulated. Remorselessness.

    So my answer to that cultural test is “I save Myself”.

    Any objection that you would have to my answer is due to your social conditioning. And I could give a fuck about your objections.

    It is baggage that you can no longer afford and you need to shed it.

    Morality is social contrivance. There may exist universal moral values that are constant across all societies, but they are still contrivances. Despite what many academics say, you are not born with a set of firmware that contains an operating system of beliefs and values. Morality is a luxury. There is a German saying “Erst kommt das Essen dann kommt die Moral” (First comes the eating then comes the morality). And “das Essen” is a metaphor that can fit a multitude of situations. And by morality, I lump everything together, religion, patriotism, chivalry, ethics, convention, generalization. I leave nothing out.

    So in place of a contrived morality driving your choices and actions, your filters should be 1) Is it legal and to what degree does it leave me in jeopardy for criminal prosecution. 2) What degree of civil liability does it expose me. Outside of those two penalties then your only question should be, again, does it work for me personally?

    To paraphrase Winston Churchill “It is permitted unless it is not permitted” and a violation carries criminal or civil penalties. All else is bullshit moral conditioning.

    “Me. Me first and if necessary, me only. Me.” Anyone that tries to shame you can go fuck themselves. Shaming never closed a cell door on you or slapped a judgement against you. Shaming is used by people that wish to force you into behavior that benefits them or their sense of morality. Shaming doesn’t shame the remorseless man. Don’t fall for it any fucking more.

    If you are not going to be you, then who is going to be. I can tell you from personal experience. When you go down, if you stumble, if you fall, if you fail, no one will be there for you. No one. If the situation were the reverse in that boat , if one of them could swim and you couldn’t, you can bet your ass that none of them would save you, maybe your mother, but certainly not your wife. She already said she would abandon you for the child.

    But guess what. If someone has to die out of those other people, guess who moral convention has decided it should be, who should die first? Your ass. How fucking convenient if you happen to have a vagina that the deal happens to favor people with vaginas. Social convention and chivalry doesn’t say anything like “Hey Calculus experts to the lifeboats first.” or “Farmers that feed the world to the lifeboats first”. Nope. It says, “Women, and then what is valuable to women, meaning children, first.” Fuck you. Not you buddy. You can fucking die as far as they care.

    The reason I say that you should reject morality is that so much of it has been constructed to work against you. The constant work of Rational Male is to expose aspects of conditioning, of generalization, of social contrivance, and even of moral behavior that has been constructed to favor the Feminine Imperative at your expense. Rollo has been writing for a fucking year now and hasn’t really had to rehash old ground because the bullshit is piled so deep that there is always some new topic. And I don’t think he has even scratched the surface yet.

    So I say throw it all out. It is all designed to work against you as far I am concerned. Or more accurately, it is all designed to work against me. And I reject it. And I am enough of the Dark Triad that I do not give a fuck what anyone thinks about my rejection of it. I advise you to reject it but I don’t give a fuck if you do or not. It probably works in my favor if you don’t. In the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is king. So if you want to keep complimenting the emperor on his new clothes, go the fuck ahead. But it’s your ass if you do. Keep whining. And you better get you some Vaseline because there are people waiting to fuck you in the ass. I hope you at least get kissed.

    Because you can be assured of one thing, you, as a man, are in this thing a-fucking-lone. Nobody, and I mean nobody, gives a fuck about you. After the last 10 years that I have had, I am fucking saving myself first. I have learned about people. I know the limits of people, the limits that you can trust them, the limits that you can depend on them, the limits of their self interests, and the limits of their own morality and how they can justify any action that they feel they need to take.

    If you have any illusions, then you’re a fool and an idiot. And you better lose those illusions.

    Especially about women.

    ———–
    “If there’s one thing on this planet you don’t look like it’s a bunch of good luck walkin around.” Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    ———–
    That quote certainly fits me. And from what I gather it fits a lot of you. You don’t look like a bunch of good luck walking around. I assume you are here because things are not going swimmingly for you at this moment. You have issues (issues? fuck. what a limp dick word to describe this situation. It’s like saying “I have issues with my hand getting jammed into a meat grinder”), disappointments, even crisis and disasters in your dealings with women, in the world of women, and in the world that has been created by and for women. You are losing ground.

    There are significant forces at play, epochal changes, economic factors, financial factors, social dynamics, politics, that are contriving against you, you in particular, you, you people that happen to have a dick, and these forces are acting in a tectonic manner, meaning the very ground beneath your feet is shifting.

    Today you could say that women are your biggest jeopardy, largest threat, worst enemy and that statement would have merit. And today you can say the moral landscape is entirely different now than even in 2002. Women are entirely different now. And the change in them is accelerating.

    Tell me the truth. Can you trust a woman, knowing what you know? Are you better off because of your dealings with women?

    ————
    “It’s a mess, aint it Sheriff?” Deputy, No Country For Old Men.

    “If it aint, it’ll do till a mess gets here.” Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    ————
    If you’re single “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times”.

    If you are in the minority of men, the small minority of alpha males, alpha as we know the definition of alpha, the men that the women want to fuck, the badboy funboy, the asshole, the cad, then it’s pussy galore. Soft harems. A buffet of pussy.

    If you’re not, then you’re stretched out all along the long sexual food chain in different degrees of betadom. And women despise you, viscerally despise you.

    Women are avoiding marriage in droves, herds, gangs, throngs, clusters, whatever word you wish to use. The bitchiness and flakiness are legendary. Selectivity, entitlement, arrogance, conceit, selfishness are virtues among women. Your cooperation is demanded yet despised as weakness. Hypergamy is rampant and accepted. What love you can get from them is at their convenience, conditional, opportunistic, and most certainly, temporary until the bigger, better deal comes along.

    You are raised in a femcentric society and your mind is full of mush, of crap, of horseshit values that minimize you as a male and maximize females, that pedestalize the precious little invaluable princesses, and you are told a crap narrative about how you should act and should be that is exactly what you should not be and should not do. You are conditioned to value the LTR as the be all and the end all of male existence. Every movie, every TV show, every song preaches the utopia of it, the necessity of it for a man to be whole, to be a success, to be fit, to be accepted.

    How convenient for those with vaginas that those without vaginas are conditioned to throw themselves at the feet of those with vaginas and are judged to be or not be fit as men, in all standards of what it means to be man, by those with vaginas. How convenient that anything that is particular to your nature that causes you to act against the best interest of those with vaginas should be humiliated and shamed, spurned, shunned, and outlawed by all parties involved.

    The state of marriage for men is well documented. The great majority of married men must adopt the position of subservient sycophant or they join the ranks of divorced men. If you’re in it, you’re probably fucked already. My guess is at least half of you are miserable. Most of you wish you never did it. You feel trapped yet you fear divorce. Sorry, I don’t know what to tell you. Actually I do. What I will say to you is the most important thing I can tell you.

    Never despair. Never. Even in your darkest moment. Never Despair. Light will come to you again.

    You have no reason to fear those things you fear. The very worst outcome might happen to you and you will live it through it.

    And for 50% of you that are married, there is dark road ahead of you. But Never Despair.

    Even when it seems the world has collapsed beneath you and you have the barrel of the gun in your mouth and your life seems unbearable, take the fucking barrel out of your mouth.

    Never despair. Endure what you will face. I can tell you from experience, there will be another sunny day. Even if you are thrown out, lose your job, end up alone, bankrupt, broke, you are going to live through it. Most of your pain is going to be self inflicted through rage and guilt. Adopt the Dark Triad and you will avoid it. You will become become impervious to the pain, bulletproof. It doesn’t hurt if you don’t give a fuck.

    As a married man, you have three choices right now, stay as you are, adopt the teachings of Athol Kay and risk that it works out, or adopt Game right now and begin to prepare for divorce as if it is inevitable.

    Stand the fuck up. Adopt the Triad, focus on yourself, selfishly, lift weights, selfishly, give anyone and anything the finger that would keep you out the gym. Solidify your position at work, first, foremost, and at the expense of your marriage. Don’t let the world and Femcentric values convince you that you should fuck off work to be a better husband or father, that you need to attend more of little Johny’s soccer practices.

    Fuck your marriage. Save yourself. Save your job. Make it your priority ahead of your wife and children.

    I tell you what. Lose that job and see how long your wife and your kids stick the fuck around. Quick as you can say “fuck me in the ass” there will be another long bed Ford truck in that motherfucking driveway if your ass stops coming across with the cash and some other man will be showing your princess how good he is with tools.

    Do not be afraid to be a man. Do not apologize to anyone anymore that you are a man. Do not be afraid to lose your marriage. There are worse things than being divorced. Actually I kind of like it. Do not be afraid of what may come. It is better to be divorced and stand on your feet like a man than to grovel as a sycophantic husband because you are worried you will lose a fucking house. Fuck that house. And fuck those people in it. When it suits their purposes everyone of them will shaft you. Especially that one in the dress. When I say these things I get slammed for it, my personality gets indicted and I say to those comments, “Fuck you”. You ain’t been there. I have.

    And if you are divorced, then you are subject to whole array of social baggage, conditioning, bullshit values, beliefs, guilt, and contrivances that will drown you unless you learn right now to discard them, drop them, as if they were rocks in a sack around your neck as you tried to make it to shore in that cultural test above. You are set up to fail by the structure of divorce. I would say the same thing to you that I said to married men. Never Despair. I don’t know how to tell you to rid yourself of your anger. Buddhism helps. I haven’t rid myself of mine. And you know what? Sometimes I fucking enjoy it.

    But I will say that guilt is the biggest rock in the sack of rocks around your neck that is pulling you down. And the Dark Triad is your fucking friend in dealing with this.
    You did not choose to be divorced. No matter what you did or didn’t do. It was your wife that rationalized the divorce. It was your wife that cherry picked whatever set of values she picked, ahead of you, and ahead of the children, to justify divorce to put you all into the situation that you all are currently in. You do not have kill yourself or run yourself ragged to compensate for her life choices.

    So get this through your fucking head. Save yourself. Save your fucking self. First. Foremost. Save yourself. If you are divorced then you probably have a clue now as to how much you are in this alone. You are. Ultimately, in the end. You are alone. So save your fucking self.

    The cost of your promises is too high today. They are never a bargain. Do not make them and if you must, do not worry if you must break them. Trust that the others will not keep theirs and not hesitate to break any promise made to you,

    Especially women.

    ——————
    “If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?” Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    ——————

    I know its a huge thing for most you to reject what I tell you need to reject. All morality. I know that you are decent, fair, just, merciful, rational, logical, generous men. Fuck, I’ve traveled. I know what other people in other places are like. And I know there is certain constancy and a dependability to you that is unique.

    But you what? You wouldn’t be in the situation that you were in if you weren’t as you are. If you weren’t so kind, if you were more violent, if you were more selfish, if you weren’t the decent, generous, dependable, cooperative, behaving, understanding, rational, solid citizens that you are, then you wouldn’t have opened the doors to people that you have opened.

    And they’re inside and they are slamming the door shut in your face and they are at the window giving you the fucking finger. “Sucker”!!!!

    Like the time my ex-wife came home from a business trip. My daughter was 2 years old. And I guess my wife had gotten the deal she wanted. So there she was in short DKNY skirt, tight sweater with titties, $25 nylons, $400 high heeled pumps, just off an airplane, and she picks my daugher up and sets her on the counter to dress her and says “Baby, men are such suckers. All you have to do is put on a short skirt and they give you whatever you want.” And my daughter giggles mostly because of how mommy was smiling. And my wife says in a goo goo kind of voice “Yes they are. Yes they are”.

    So there it is. Sucker. Beta. Fool.

    Women been playin’ you, manipulating you, taking you for a fool, using your good nature, your chivalry, your lack of suspicion, your idiotic belief that she is just like you, decent, basically honest, that she means what she says, and that she would never never never use her sexuality in a dishonest way for her own personal gain. No?

    Yes. She would and she does and she will.

    So how the fuck do you know if anything you been told, any “moral”, any ethic, any rule, any convention, any concept, any shaming is not the same thing? Some sucker bullshit to trick you into something that works in her favor.

    ——————
    “I always thought when I got older that God would sort of come into my life in some way. He didn’t.” Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    ——————

    Dalrock has spent an enormous amount of blog space discussing how women have co-opted religion. In the past 10 years, ok fucking fine, in the last 40 years, whole fundamental tenets of Christianity that were the bedrock of social organization, chastity, the sanctity of marriage vows, the father as leader of the church and of the family, abomination of divorce have been thrown in the trash and replaced by Relativisms where women push their shopping cart down the aisles in the supermarket of values and select what value works for them and ignore what doesn’t. “I’ll have a couple of pounds of ‘equal pay’ but give me a package of that ‘chivalry’. I’ll take a couple of boxes of that “requirement of absolute male monogamy” and I want some “strong and independent woman”.

    So how do you know that the whole thing, the whole trip, everything about it, the whole religion, has not been one grand relativism after another, throughout history, one big scam to push you into behaviors that work against you just like what is happening today?

    How you can believe any of it? When it worked for women that men get married and stayed married, then guess what? The Church said “Hey men, Don’t even think about sex before marriage. Don’t even ask. Don’t even touch. Get married and stay married and if you even think of anything different, even look at another woman, you’re going to hell. Touch your dick in any other way than during sacramental sex with your lawfully wedded wife and your ass going blind.”

    But now the church says that princess is OK when she rides the cock carousel. She’s just experimenting. If she is unmarried and gets knocked up and keeps the baby, she’s a fucking hero.

    So now, instead of commanding that you are the leader of the family, the church says that princess has a duty to use the power of that magic pussy to slap you around and get you to behave. “It is evidence of the glory of God at work when those husbands get up on Monday and get in those cars and drive to work to make that woman proud of him, that she made the right choice in him as her husband”. Hallelujah!! Amen.

    And if princess decides that she doesn’t want to be a Mrs anymore and wants to be Ms., well nooow Jesus says it’s OK and it’s your fucking fault, dickhead. See, those vows, those vows that said “Til death do you part” what they reeeaaaaaally meant was “Til the death (of the love or your hypergamistic utility) do you part. And you just haven’t been very good at coming across that things that make me haaaappppy and my love is now dead, so Jesus says I get to leave. Or actually, you have to leave. It’s my house now. Jesus says pack your trash.”

    Do you really think that God created the Grand Canyon and carbon dating that shows scientifically that layer upon layer of earth formed through the pressure of weight, stratified over time, millions of years of time, just in order to test your fucking faith? Do you really think all those fossils in the ground that prove evolution of the species are the work of Satan whispering in your ear “God doesn’t exist. Trust me.” That you are so special, so watched over by God and given the one true doctrine and the other people on the planet, all those Chinese, Hindus, and Muslims, all are going to hell? That all those billions of stars out there in the universe are there to hold the earth in a constant orbit of 365 and 1/4 days around the sun so fucking Anita Bryant can grow orange juice? That there is dude with a giant fucking database who sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you’re awake, he knows when you’ve been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake?

    There was a web page discussing Gandhi and there was one comment “Hey, Reality Check here. Remember!!! Gandhi is in hell right now.”

    So let me ask you something “If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?”

    Sucker.

    So keep following same morality. Argue for it. Justify it. Believe it for everything you’re worth. Fight wars over it. Die in them. Give up your sons to it. March his little ass right down that aisle to believe in something that is gonna make a slave of him. Invest every ounce of intellectual capacity that you have in it. Base everything you see, hear, smell, and touch on it. Especially, a morality that treats you like a second class piece of dirt and that woman as the special little princess and the reason you breath. You keep on doing unto others as you would have done unto you. You keep turning that other cheek.

    Especially for a doctrine that will shit on you at the snap of her fingers, one that provides her with a menu of justified divorceable offenses that looks like a Dim Sum menu at a Chinese restaurant off of Canal Street.

    And you let me know how that’s working out for you.

    ——————-
    “All the time you spend tryin to get back what’s been took from you there’s more goin out the door. After a while you just try and get a tourniquet on it.” Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    ——————

    So just about every blog has an author or comments that talk about what’s wrong. And piss and moan. And what to do to “get back what’s been took from you”. And yes, “there’s more going out the door”.

    You are not ever getting back what has been taken from you. The world will not go back in any way, shape, or form, like it was before. There will not be some grand day when women and men strike this balance, this accord, where women say “Oh, I see what you are saying. Sorry. And let me change this for you.” And it’s not so much because they are women, it is more because they are people. And people never give up advantage. But as women, they are programmed to take advantage.

    Upton Sinclair said “You can never get someone to understand something when their livelihood depends on them not understanding it.”

    The law is working in her favor. She is not going to give that up. And she is not going to not use it to her advantage. She can’t help it, she’s programmed to extract advantage. And the whole world is going to cheer her on in doing so. Whether it be at work, in marriage, in divorce, in business, she will use what advantage she has, and rationalize the use of it. She is going attack anything that is not to her advantage and brand it as misogynistic, whether intentional, structural, or institutional because she can do it and if it is not to her advantage then she sees it as misogynistic.

    Women make up 38% of the entrants into the Harvard Business School, yet the men had continually gained the honors. The women insisted that the grading structurally and institutionally favored the men. Because the women had to deal with the men socially, they were afraid to speak in class, afraid to excel. So Harvard needed to do something to deal with that institutional misogyny. Now women earn 33% of honors, “but more work need be done”. And “Harvard in it’s position as leader should do more to educate other business schools about how to end misogyny in its MBA programs”.

    Maybe they were right and there was something institutional that worked against them. But you can bet your ass that nobody gives a fuck if something institutionally works for you or against you. And women will push and push, lie and cry, until they kill any advantage you may have.

    Yesterday in the New York Times as I was reading one article about “Gender”, the side bar listing the links and titles to the main articles of the day had three other articles with the word “Gender” in it, meaning three more topics that the number 1 newspaper in the United States, and maybe the world, was placing under “discussion”, meaning under attack. We are at the point now where any accusation, at all, is taken at face value, accepted as gospel without any discussion of the relative merits of the attack.

    I can talk until I am blue in the face that you are going to get more and more of what you got.

    So what I am fucking saying is get a tourniquet on it. At least in your own life.

    Understand here and now that you are in the middle of a great epochal shift and shift with it. You wouldn’t sacrifice a goat like the Romans, open it up, and read its innards to determine how you should invest in the market. You wouldn’t believe that someone in the community is witch or a warlock because the meat in the supermarket was tainted like people in Medieval England.

    Yeah, well. You’re carrying around a whole bunch of suitcases that are full of bullshit, outdated, horseshit values that are designed to keep you down and you need throw that baggage onto the same trash heap.

    ——————-
    When I came into your life your life was over. It had a beginning, a middle, and an end. This is the end.” Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    ——————

    The thing about epochal shifts is that not everyone is in it at the same level and at the same time. While the great agricultural civilizations in Mesopotamia and in Egypt were thriving, the vast majority of the world was still hunter gatherers. In America, it has been said that the Civil War was actually a conflict between an agricultural First Wave society and an industrial Second Wave society. There were people even in 1941 that lived in subsistence agricultural groups that were totally outside the industrialized agricultural economy that received their first pair of shoes when they joined the army at the start of World War II.

    But I can guarantee you that are at the end of any facet of the Modern Era. I could write a book on why. And there has been an epochal shift. I don’t know when it started. Could have started in 1945. 1968. Fuck I don’t know. I know that it predates the internet. My Professor of Economics, Earnest T Grubbs, Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Texas in Austin lectured on this topic in the fall of 1973, long before Alvin Toffler, when Bill Gates was 10 years old. But historians will probably say the year 2000 because its a nice round number and goes with 1500, which is the noted as beginning of the Modern Era. And they all say “The invention of the Gutenburg Press lead to the Modern Era. And I say Yes and No. The first book that the dude printed was a Bible, and not for nothing. It kept the church from burning his ass at the stake for introducing a disruptive technology. But it wasn’t too long before they were printing porn in Switzerland and smuggling it into France where it was banned. So somebody out there wasn’t too worried that they were most certainly going to burn in hell for looking at it. I say the proclivity of change was already under foot and the printing press facilitated it. The same goes with the internet and the Post Modern Era. Who knows what the fuck the thing will be called by historians looking back on it.

    Probably something that is a shorter version of “The Age when men took it in the ass from women because they were stupid fools and let them do it to them”.

    ——————-
    “The point is there ain’t no point.” Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    ——————

    The point is there ain’t no point. ” Life has no meaning in and of itself. Men give meaning to life. Man surged up from the void of consciousness to provide meaning to life.” I didn’t make that shit up. Sartre did, Heidegger did. Neitzche did, Schopenhauer did. Existentialism.

    So it means that values are created, meaning is artificial, contrived, manufactured and is not inherent to being.

    You don’t hear very much about this today do you? Not a very popular concept even though some of the biggest thinkers in the world came to this conclusion at the end of a long train of philosophy. No!!! Can’t have that shit, no. No fucking way. So folks that wished to re-engineer society to fuck you in the ass went a totally different direction. Fuck, there was no further to go with Existentialism. All meaning is bullshit. What else can you say? End of discussion. An abyss. A cliff was reached, and so they come up with something else, something that worked for them. PostStructuralism. But not for you. So they constantly pound and pound on language and the culture, meaning, and value expressed in the language until you were a shit and they were fucking heroes. It took 40 years, but now they have the language and the culture they want.

    So fuck them and fuck their stupid morality. All of it. Create your own meaning and your own value.. The Church of What’s Happening Now.

    ——————-
    “How does a man decide in what order to abandon his life?”Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
    ——————

    Keep in mind that Cormac McCarthy was past 60 years old and was making that statement about the realization that at some point in your life, you begin realize that you aren’t a part of life as other people see it and live it. For most of your life, time is this unlimited intangible and you can’t fathom that there is a limit to it. But them one day you do.

    From childhood, as you age, things get given to you, more and more, abilities, privileges, knowledge, money, position, love. Then at some point, they start to get taken from you. There was a line from the show ThirtySomething, “The first sign of middle age is invisibility to teenage girls”. So then more and more things get taken from you, youth, position, work, sex, idealizations, health, even love, until at last, the very air you breathe is taken.

    So when enough things get taken from you, then you decide to abandon your life as it was, sometimes by choice, sometimes by chance, sometimes by necessity. Things that seemed so important before, don’t. Values that seemed so concrete, aren’t. Don’t wait until that point until you finally get a clue to the bullshit life that is being sold to you.

    I’ll leave you with this.

    A woman asked if I believed in God.

    I replied “I believe in Darwin and Newton.”

    She snapped back “Will belief in Darwin get you Heaven?”

    And there it is. It’s called Pascal’s Wager. So many of Pascal’s peers and contemporaries were atheist, products of the Age of Reason. When they would prod Pascal that why, after all he knew, could he possibly be a believer.

    He said “You think there is nothing. I think there is heaven. If you are right then what did I lose? Nothing. But if I am right then I gained heaven.”

    I give the reverse wager, the wager that says that with all the evidence of science on my side, are you prepared to continue to follow a morality that is contrived to work against you, to enslave you, that indicts you, imputes you, and favors women greatly at your expense, all for the promise of your version of 70 virgins?

    It’s just one more sucker story you are falling for.

  29. Relative newcomers to this scene (not to mention total neophytes) may be somewhat stunned by Mark Minter. Perhaps you are tempted to dismiss him outright. But I ask you to consider that what he says, and what he obviously feels, are entirely reasonable end results of a male life lived through a particular time and culture.

    What kind of cultural circumstances could have produced a Mark Minter? The answers are all round the Internet these days, as you can plainly see; but a very compressed, rational, and very quickly digestible account of it all is available in the video blog posts of a 40-year-old Canadian anti-feminist, pro-men’s-rights woman who calls herself ‘girlwriteswhat.’ I mentioned her just the other day; but I repeat it here, as this woman’s video-recorded essays very efficiently, and very strongly, support everything Minter has to say.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat/videos?sort=dd&flow=grid&view=0

    Disclaimer: I have not yet seen all of girlwriteswhat’s vids, and the possibility remains that there is some kind of flaw in her approach which would make it less valuable to men’s interests than it seems to me at this point. But I haven’t perceived one yet.

  30. I highly recommend listening to Adagio for Strings by Samuel Barber while reading Mark Minters above post. You’ll understand why.

  31. I don’t even dare to tackle Mark’s latest novel yet, but in the meantime:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241747/Naomi-Hampson-27-raped-somnophilliac-boyfriend-Robert-Fryer-SLEEP-2-years.html

    Not in any way condoning what the f*cker has done — moreover, as you don’t need a dominant frame when you’re doing it “behind her back”, so to say, whatever his mental condition — but the tone of the article and the commentary is sooo expected. One is compelled to even double-check that it wasn’t some sort of a satirical piece, but you don’t need to make this sh1t up, this is the level of thinking that abounds. The “Worst rated” (of course) comments are the ones that seem to sensibly question her sense of observation, and all of two years, for that matter.

    And now Rollo’s blog will be lambasted for being a haven for rapist-apologists too, and sleep rapists at that.

  32. For OlioOx or similar voice praise for Mark Minter. A common point is said to read what he feels and experience and to understand him rather than dismiss him. It is boosted by such praise including Rollo himself to take his epically long posts seriously.

    My question is how serious? To understand him or to what degree we should take his lessons. To understand him to how he feels is useful and instructive. But the praise from commenter and Rollo himself seems to indicate to take on more. Yet, his messaging seems to scream nuance should be taken. I’m not sure taking everything including his undertones or the explanation to what he says productive. If takes everything, part of the message includes dropping any consideration to all people – especially women- but still all. That the best action is the most exploitative action. To assume rather than ascribe the potential of contemptuousness and callousness embodied by his story of his ex-wife to all women including women like Rollo’s and Dalrock’s wife. I’m not sure it is productive to see a girl and the first thought is “she is so evil and heartless and I am going to use her like the bitch she is”.

  33. I agree with Mark based on his observations, but obviously I can’t cosign everything. I do find love, value, respect and genuine desire in Mrs. Tomassi, so I can see a net positive from marriage. I don’t want to propose I have some albino unicorn of a marriage; it has in the past and (with reduced frequency) does wrok for some people, but I maintain my marriage with full knowledge and understanding of the risks and the machinations behind what it’s become.

    I wouldn’t be married if I didn’t want to be.

    That said, even as a happily married Man I can appreciate what Mark relates here. Were I to find myself single again I would never remarry. Not just because I doubt I could reestablish the same quality of relation I have with Mrs. Tomassi, but because I have a far greater awareness of how the game is played now.

  34. Naturally everyone should apply Marks insights in a way that suits his present journey in improving himself, but his posts act most importantly as a very true caveat for any future development in a relationship. That you should plan your journey bearing in mind the possibilities of derailment if your own goal is lost to her frame taking over.

    Marks posts distill (if that is the correct word for a 6000-word essay) the essence of male-female relationships from a perspective that has seen what the worst of Them can lead to if given the hypergamic opportunity.

    I personally can and do take and pick different teachings, values and techniques (ie. PUA-ism, which may be dismissed as a crutch by some enlightened, but so what) from different sources in the movement and apply them as appropriate.
    (Krauser’s analysis: http://krauserpua.com/2012/11/30/game-theory-has-its-own-life-cycle/ )

    If I think that in a given case Roissian mode, with a bit of Roosh or Tyler thrown in is the way to pursue, then I do that. In another case, perhaps SteveJ’s lighter confidence game can be employed, to feed off of high value presented, why not?

    At the same time, Mark’s works act as a reinforcing layer in the background, to ward off thoughts of being *too* relaxed and immersed in the moment, just to remember what is potentially “on the other side”.

    Mark wrote that he could “write a book”? Started already. And hell, let’s throw in one by YaReally too, while we’re at it. I think I have some space next to Rollo’s for these too…

  35. This is SO enlightening! Even the comments! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

    I could graduate from space camp in less than 3 months if I dedicated all my waking hours to reading all the posts and comments and taking notes.

    I wonder why a man doesn’t just straight up tell the women – oh, wait, I get it. They’ve not taken the red pill.

    OK, and why is it that men who have unplugged don’t enlighten women like me – oh, wait, because it is the Ego’s psychological imperative to be right and it’s pointless to tell someone something without charging them for it. Besides, men can’t even help other men unplug.

    GOT IT!!!!!!

    So, now, tell me – with all these pussified men around how do I go about finding a rational male who would call my bluff out on me? Is there a community of single, available graduates of Rational Male University?

  36. I just read Mark Minter’s long comment and was aching …….

    Do what is right for you (all men). It is unfortunate people have to go around wearing armor but it is what it is until it is not.

    I think it’s just an evolutionary imperative that the female power is arising at this point of our evolution (already predicted thousands of years before) to balance out energy fields of the predominant patriarchal systems throughout history.

    Things tend to come back and bite us in the ass – karmically. The witches did not die in vain.

    But everything’s going to be alright. Just one more generation. It’s going to be alright.

  37. It’s a great read indeed, it amazingly fits a situation I’ve had recently.
    The thing is that this girl gave strong signals of being into me, so much that even as I had my doubts, other friends from our social group believed there was ‘something’ between us. She dropped her needy and obsesive bf then came strongly into me, so I got a liking to her, but then I saw what was coming.
    One day, on facebook -lol- she said the terrible, terrible line: ‘we’ve got to talk’ as soon as I opened it at 2 AM. She told me that our friends from college told her they thought there was something between us, that she believed I told them, but she didn’t want me to be confused, that she valued our friendship and didn’t want more than that, etc. also that she’d liked if I said this to her instead of our friends -I never EVER said a word, what the heck-, to which I replied ‘I said no more than what everyone else saw’ (I can’t believe I could say stuff as cool as that), so at least the social hit was avoided.
    After that, I simply said that I wished I could be friends with her, some things that happened between us made me want more, but if she felt that way, then I would preffer to stop talking. She was pretty nervous, it looked like she connected just to talk to me about that and was writing like mad right after each of my messages, after my last sentence she said ‘I don’t know how to handle this situation’. A couple minutes later ‘if that’s what you want, then I respect it’ and that’s it.
    After the dear diary, here are some questions:
    a) If she was throwing clear signals of being attracted to me, so much that even our friends thought she liked me, but then went into the LJBF phase, does this mean she’s an attention whore and/or does this mean she was attracted to me at some point yet I blew it?
    b) Why was she so pushy about it, was it that she was bothered more about people thinking she liked me, was it to stop me on my toes, to make me her bitch or did she want a stronger reaction from me?
    Thanks for the nice read and happy holidays to everyone.

  38. @BPaul

    Trust me bro, you gotta walk away. Did it to my ex and it was one of the most empowering albiet hardest thing i did in my life

  39. This post along with the comment has opened my eyes more that any other site or book, i am (or was) one of the guys thinking I can be a girl’s besties. In fact, I am about to meet a girl who obv friend zoned me but use me as tempon and tech support later today and probably gonna tell me about her date with another dude too. Not anymore, if she does tell me that, I will just tell her she should talk to one of her girlfriend instead. Probably too late to turn around too but as least now I feel better knowing is better for everyone when I cut contact and is my decision to do so.

    Thank you

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  41. Oh man do I feel like a chump after my post in Playing Friends. Well, kind of.

    I actually *was* devastated but that’s part of the process. I had a great talk with my friend today. He set me straight in a direct but gentle way. He’s her brother and basically told me that my perception of her was not real — I was dancing with my perception of her, which was her silhouette — which really meant I was just dancing with myself.

    She would probably just be playing Xbox and pulling gum off of her shoe while I was confessing my love to her.

    I had to laugh. He was in a similar situation with another girl. Talking about it helped a lot because we both intellectually understand what’s going on, but it’s just the emotional charge that makes it feel real, and so hard to deal with.

    He has no emotional charge with my stuff. I have no emotional charge with his stuff. So then we can rationalize and think very clearly and then just laugh and do whatever we want and it’s like this giant weight was lifted off my chest.

    A lot of people like me have fallen in love with his sister. His response is just, “Yeah, have fun with that.” I have a sister a lot of guys like so I know what it’s like. I’m like “Yeah….she’s great, huh.” Not that she’s a bad person, but growing up with her, I have absolutely no biases. All I can say is “Yeah, have fun with that.”

    The horrible turmoil I was in was very real. But it’s mine. Talking to him today helped a lot because it pulled me out of it — along with reading this post. I really needed this major slap in the face to realize what was going on. I have been qualifying MY ENTIRE LIFE. I have been giving away the frame MY ENTIRE LIFE.

    I literally almost killed myself after she rejected me. That’s a problem! I’ve had suicidal tendencies more or less my whole life. But now that I made it through that — and rejection is a major trigger for wanting to commit suicide for me — it’s a chance to clear it out.

    I still haven’t spent time thinking hard about what *I* want. Complete self-interest. Stop the projections, the fantasizing. I just imagine my intense “love” for my ONE-itis as a mirror floating in space. I then imagine it shattering into pieces, along with space — and then there’s a giant field in front of me. And I can do whatever I want. I just have to answer the question: What *do* I want?

    The worst part of LJBF and the whole “friendship” leading up to it is our own selves. Tormenting ourselves. Qualifying, begging, pleading, whether directly or covertly, instead of desiring, pursuing, and getting. Whatever it is.

    I felt so broken up because I felt like my whole world was shattered. And you know, it really was. My inner world that I was operating from. It’s new and exciting — a new world to create, a new world to operate from, a new version of myself.

    I feel like I lost something major. And I did. You can only hold one thing in your hands. If you’re holding onto a frustrated ONE-itis that is bearing no fruit and hurting you, if you’re holding onto rejection and abandonment and self-hatred…you can’t hold onto all the good stuff like fun and the freedom to be whoever you want to be.

    This whole experience was so distressing to me it just made approaching girls, one of my chronic ‘phobias’ (I decide now that I’m no longer going to have that “phobia”), seem like child’s play. A little splash of cold water in the face and I feel like I just woke up.

    LJBF is a gift. One we hopefully learn from and never have to receive again. But it’s a nice slap in the face that can wake you up to the fact that you have been neglecting yourself and depriving yourself of living a life you want to live. The pain is telling you that you need more love and respect from YOU.

  42. One more: I have a thick skull. Glenn in another thread tried to snap me out of it and failed because my skull is just that thick. I will thank him again though if he ever sees this, because I now realize what he was saying. The thing is I needed a slap in the face from my ONE-itis fixation, the girl I’ve been in love with for so many years and had the blue pill fantasy with — wanting to be with her forever.

    The girl that LJBF’d me, that I’ve been friends with for 10 years…I just messaged her again. I told her point blank that I need a harsh rejection, and I need to hear it from her. I told her I’m never going to be able to bury this unless she tells me the truth. So what I told her was, if this is the truth, say this back to me, or say it back in your own words:

    “I’m not interested in you, I never was interested in you, we’re never going to be together, there was never a single chance that we were going to be together, there was never a single time I ever wanted to be more than friends with you, we always had fun but to be honest the idea of ever doing anything sexual with you or even making out with you really freaks and grosses me out and makes me feel disgusted, just….no, not years ago, not now, not ever. I’m sorry that you wanted more and I don’t, but I don’t, I never did and never will, and you need to get over it.”

    After her telling me she was my friend and would be here for me (telling me in her own words instead of saying what I said, or being harsh), I told her to just copy and paste that back to me if it was the truth because if she kept saying she wanted to be friends, I was going to take that as a sign that she might still want more with me, and that I could never bury it unless I knew the bitter truth.

    She resisted for a while. But I kept telling her my case, and then she copy and pasted what I wrote to her and sent it right back to me.

    I said “thank you,” and now I’m heading out to work.

    I feel like absolute shit, but not anywhere near as bad as thinking about her and hoping there was something there. Writing out the worst case rejection, as harsh as I could come up with, and then giving that to her…

    …I made her own up to her rejection of me. She would never have sent that back to me if she had any feelings for me or had any trace of wanting to be with me. She was just afraid of hurting me and didn’t want to own up to her complete rejection of me because it made her uncomfortable.

    I know she didn’t want to tell me that. But that’s how she felt. I assumed the worst and I was right. But I feel so much better knowing that there really was nothing ever there and that thinking about it like there was is completely useless.

    Funnily enough I do really appreciate her doing that. And as awful as it feels, this is what I needed in order to bury this and move on with my life. Get rid of all traces of doubt and wondering and just take the sword to the heart so you can put an end to the suffering and move on to the next life — the new version of yourself.

  43. If the woman is really attractive and you want to attract other females, and you are ‘over her’, it’s pretty wise to actually bring her back in you life as ‘just a friend’. Then, you should make sure you are seen in public a lot with her, as it will convey the message to the females that this is a guy you should get. You will have the best of both worlds: You are single AND you have a beautiful girl next to you who is willing to let you sleep with other girls. Even better if you never had really deep feelings anyway. By breaking it off you are also breaking off the possibility to sleep with her friends and basically get ahead of the game. I’d say ask her to fix you up with someone. She’ll even do her very best to describe you as the next best thing to her friends.

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  45. Friends?

    Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears. – Marcus Aurelius

    Life is a succession of lessons, which must be lived to be understood. – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  46. I was recently in a ljbf situation.Ive been friends with her for a while. Ive made a few moves and got rejected but she continued to want to hang out. I told her straight up that i was interested and she said she didn’t see me as more than a friend. I told her that i didn’t want to be just friends i also said that Im not gonna be one of her girlfriends. I then said if you change your mind give me a call. Lets just say she was more than pissed. She said so you’re just gonna throw away our friendship i said yea. Ive been ljbf before but this is the first time I’ve dealt with this situation head on, how i should have so many years ago. It was funny because although i know i probably didn’t deal with this the in the most polite way, she tried to make me feel like shit because i didn’t want to be just friends. I actually feel good that i was being true to myself and proud that i wasn’t willing to accept a ljbf rejection. Any feed back would be good thanks guys!

    1. Excellent. It’s good to see a man stick to his resolve. Women hate this response because it’s a hit to their ego. All but the most brutally pragmatic of women will see this response as an insult and/or a slight because they were hoping that guy would “just get it” and self-select himself out of her consideration. Instead she’s not only forced to give him a rejection (she thought would be contrite) but has to be made self-conscious of it by his rejection of her disingenuous counter-offer of “friendship”.

      The solution to this is ego protection for her, so you must really be a dick for not wanting to ‘play friends’ with her. Your unwillingness to engage in the act of playing friends with her when you really want something more with her is commendable – you’re not being fake by accepting her frame.

      Women will bend over backwards to reconcile the fact that somehow somewhere out in the world is a person who doesn’t like her. It’s not that you don’t like her, it’s that you refused to be inauthentic with her and yourself (which would only reinforce her opinion of you more) and that means disengaging with her to be true to yourself. Women hate this because it puts the responsibility of her rejection back on herself, instead of on you where she was hoping she could gradually forget about it.

  47. @Jorge

    A NEXT is always the right thing when you’ve established you’re not gonna get what you want, so good job learning that lesson. If you want to let them down a tad easier (no need to burn a bridge if you don’t have to) explain it simply as neither of you getting what you want out of continuing to be around each other. Something along the lines of “I wouldn’t be getting the romantic relationship I wanted, and you wouldn’t have the “just friends” friend you wanted. It would be a fake friendship built on lies. Neither of us wants that. We’re not fake people right?” Alter it to suit your tastes.

    Now the truth is that she probably just wanted another orbiter to pump her ego, but there’s no need to call her out on that. It won’t improve her behavior toward you and will just come across as catty effeminate behavior. Move on with no hard feelings because really there’s no reason to have any. You didn’t do anything wrong and neither did she. You took the shot (good!), she was within her rights to say no, so you’re within your rights to protect yourself from the awful feeling of being around the object of your unrequited affection by walking away.

    However, be aware some girls will still react the way you mentioned no matter how reasonable you are. That’s life. It’s a blow to her ego to realize that nobody is so amazing that it’s worth suffering unrequited love for them. NOBODY. Do not expect her to understand your situation if she doesn’t immediately agree. Give an explanation like I mentioned, then either part with mutual agreement or let her fume on her own. Don’t get dragged in to an argument; she’s just trying to pump her ego after yours just got crushed.

    You’ve got the hard part right though, man. Just learn to recognize when it’s time to cut the cord sooner. Saves you time, and saves her from an overinflated sense of entitlement to that time.

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