Intergender Friendship

Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend.

Ever since “When Harry Met Sally” was released there’s been a constant droning about the validity of intergender friendships. To even suggest that men and women couldn’t be strictly platonic, mature friends is to invite reproach from a society that’s been steeped in notions of egalitarian equalism. If men and women are fundamentally “the same” there should be no impediment to developing and maintaining a friendship in like terms to a same sex friendship.

First off, men and women cannot be friends in the way or to the degree that most people perceive same sex friendship to be. Now the natural resoponse to this is “I have lots of female friends” or “what are you trying to say, I can’t have female friends, they all haffta be enemies?” Which of course is the standard binary (black or white, all or nothing) retort and the trained AFC thinks anyone suggesting that men and women’s relations as friends could be anything less than equitable and fulfilling is just a neanderthal chauvinist thinking. However, they are incorrect – not because you wouldn’t want to actually be a woman’s friend. There are fundamental differences in the ways men and women view friendship within the framework of their own sex and the ways this transfers to the concept of intergender-friendship.

Quite simply there are limitations on the degree to which a friendship can develop between men and women. The easy illustration of this is that at some point your female “friend” will become intimately involved with another male; at which point the quality of what you perceived as a legitimate friendship will decay. It must decay for her intimate relationship to mature. For instance, I’ve been married for 15 years now; were I to entertain a deep friendship with another female (particularly an attractive female) other than my wife, my interest in this woman automatically becomes suspect of infidelity – and of course the same holds true for women with man-friends. This dynamic simply doesn’t exist for same sex friendships because the sexual aspect is inconsequential.

I understand how stupidly obvious this seems, but remember we’re qualifying the characteristics of intergender friendships in the face of a social undercurrent that wants to convince us that men and women are fundamentally equal. According to this precept, men should essentially possess the capacity to repress their sexual impulse to the point that it should have no bearing on his rational decision to engage in a platonic friendship. Likewise, a woman should be able to dissociate herself from her hypergamous nature to pursue a completely asexual friendship. And both genders should maturely pursue the friendship for their mutual enrichment, however, reality tells a different story.

Girl-Friends

All of this isn’t to say that you cannot have female acquaintances, or that you must necessarily be rude or ignore all women with contempt (that is binary thinking once again), but it is to say that the degree of friendship that you can experience with women (as a man) in comparison to same sex friendships will always be limited due to sexual differences. Most men will only ever engage in friendships with women that they initially find attractive which then, of course, is colored by their attraction to that woman. Now I’m sure the “not in my case” card will get played and attempt to make the anecdotal case for how much an exception to the rule you are, to which I’ll say, even if you legitimately are, it makes no difference. Because the very nature of an intergender friendship is ALWAYS going to be limited by sexual differences. Even if you can legitimately make the case that you aren’t now, or weren’t in the past, attracted to your opposite sex friend, your other intimate relationships will still modify and/or limit the depth of that friendship.

Even the best, most asexual, platonic, male-female friendships will be subject to mitigation based on sex. The easy example is; I’m sure you’d be jealous and suspect of your girlfriend were she to be spending any “quality time” with another ‘male-friend’. It’s simply time spent with another male who isn’t you and you’ll always question her desire to do so in favor of spending time with you.

Bear in mind that it’s also important to consider how women relate with their same-sex friends as a template for their intergender friendships. Remember each sex uses its same-sex model of friendship on which to base their understandings and expectations for an opposite sex friendship. Very few men have the patience to sort out how women interact with their women friends, so they opt for the easy answer that equalism gives them – we’re all the same, so your buddies are the same as women. Any guy that’s been in the circular hell of being a woman’s “phone-friend” knows this isn’t true. Girl-friends have a much different dynamic for friendship than do men, but likewise, and by way of her innate solipsism, she’s presuming her intersexual friendships will follow along a similar template to that of her girl-friends.

And why wouldn’t women expect their male friends to conform to their template for friendship? In a feminine-centric world it makes practical sense for men to realign themselves to women’s friendship frame. Men will all too readily tolerate behavior and attitudes from girl-friends that they’d come to physical blows were their male friends to do the same. Since the prerogative of maintaining that friendship is, by default, cast in a feminine-centric frame, women (generally) wouldn’t even think of altering their own interpretations of friendship to accommodate a male perspective.

Get it out of your head now that you’re even in a so called “friend zone” with any woman. There is no friend zone – there is only the limbo between you being fooled that a girl is actually a friend on an equitable level to your same sex friends, and you understanding that as soon as she becomes intimate with another guy your attentions will become a liability to any relationship she might want to have with the new sexual interest and she puts you off, or you do the same when you become so involved with another girl.

The Female Wingman

A lot of guys cling to this mistaken notion that they can parlay a female friendship into action with one of her hot friends. You may even have legitimate examples where that might’ve happened, but for each one, I’ll show you a girl who would’ve fucked you irrespective of whether or not you had a mutual female friend to vouch for you. That friendship may have been a convenient pivot into another hot girl, but it wasn’t the prior intergender – friendship that got you laid; it was that the girl who banged you found you attractive enough to fuck.

I’m not denying the utility of  ‘Social Circle Game’, nor am I ignoring that the conspicuous attention of hot women is good social proof – that’s not what the friend pivot is about. It’s about assuming a girl-friend will endorse you as a preselected, potential sexual partner.

You may think it’s great social proof to have some hot friend endorse you as a good lay for her other friends, but women talk. In fact it’s all they do most of the time. Your status as a friend gets transferred to her girlfriends. Why? First, if she was a prior target for you who turned into a LJBF, you already have that as an association of your friendship. Any of her girlfriends that would subsequently date you will know that she was your primary interest initially – not them. Secondly, assuming you even could have a completely innocuous, asexual, platonic beginning to your inter-gender friendship, there will be competition anxiety with the other girlfriends. This will result in a tendency for the original friend to filter your exposure to which of her girlfriends she finds the least threatening. You have to consider the balance between your value to her as another friend / orbiter against her endorsing you as a potential intimate for one of her girlfriends. Just because you have a girl-friend with a social circle of attractive female friends doesn’t mean you’ll get her endorsement for the one you’d prefer to get with.

To complete the circle here, all of this leads up to understanding that your female friend will NEVER be one of your guy friends. This silly notion is founded on the expectation that your female friend will hold the same interests and have the same reactions that your male friends will. Women are never going to be your wingman. One of the great downfalls of men today is too much female influence in their lives, to the point that it’s become stigma. Beware the guy with too many or exclusively female friends. This might make for the plot of stupid movies, but most women are wary of guys with so many female friends that they question their being able to relate with and be Men.


Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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YOHAMI
Guest

Mmmm.

I believe in friendship. I have a lot of female friends. And a couple of close female friends. I just happen to have banged most of them.

Some girls makes for great wingmen. The kind of wingman who´s up for threesomes.

A.B. Dada
Guest

I have female fans galore, but only 2 female friends. I’ve slept with both in my younger days. Both have aged VERY well, but I am just not attracted to them sexually. I don’t see them often, but when I do, the social proof of having two vivacious and extremely attractive women doting on me always gets attention of random women. When I meet women, they can either be a fan, or they can be in my bed, or they can be my customer. That’s the end of the story. On the other hand, I have plenty of exes who… Read more »

Nummm
Guest
Nummm

I definitely bought into this back in my AFC days. So much frustration at women who claimed to be my friend, but wouldn’t act like it.

Also, you are a boss yohami. Your blog is inspirational.

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

The general premise behind the “if you aren’t fucking her you are her girlfriend” meme is sound if you are an uninitiated chump, but for guys who know the score having a few of the right kind of female friends in your life is like having a flock of geese that lay golden eggs; it can provide you with a constant source of new pussy and a few fun drinking buddies. I had friendships with two of these kinds of girls over the past couple of years. You met one of them. DEFINITELY not dating material, but very useful for… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Thanks bro

lovelost
Guest
lovelost

I am coming to terms with this reality, realising what were my mistakes in the past?

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

I should also note that over the past few years I have paid VERY close attention to the dynamic between platonic male/female relationships and one thing I have noticed is that for a woman to want to spend time with a man in ANY capacity it ALWAYS has to benefit her in one way or another. If she is hanging out with you it isn’t because she enjoys your company. Well, maybe she does, but that is merely an incidental benefit. In order for a woman to want to be “friends” with you she is either sexually attracted to you… Read more »

lovelost
Guest
lovelost

Other than that you might as well be dead to her.

Sounds like Roissy Maxim #12

When the love is gone, women can be as cold as if they had never known you.

DJDamage
Guest
DJDamage

Excellent choice of a picture rollo. I am not sure if you covered it in previous blog entries (and it may be a different topic all together) but the danger of being her surrogate boyfriend role (as opposed of trying to be “platonic” with her) will backfire. One of your eye opening posts on sosuave that will hit home to many men that included myself was this one: “You’re no Cap’n-Save-Ho – that would imply you’re expecting sex in return for solving her problems (i.e. a Savior Schema). You are however, her surrogate boyfriend; all the responsibilities and emotional expectations… Read more »

walawala
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walawala

This raises a couple of things. I have female “Friends” and yah, they’re “friends”. But then I have females who give me major IOI’s, know I’m seeing someone and still make time to meet up. There is tension, sexual tension. The giveaway is that they never bring up the girl i’m seeing or if they do, do so in a very suggestive way like “oh, your girlfriend would kill me if…” That demonstrates that they see this meet up, although currently platonic as having the potential for escalation—otherwise what’s with the comments? Another girl says/writes things like “A game, a… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

I am a firm believer in the idea that a man who “dates like a woman” is a man who is swimming in pussy. Women have orbiters. Men can have them too. The difference is that all of the orbiters in the world won’t increase a woman’s sexual market value, but for a man who has female orbiters it can and will increase his value exponentially. Rock stars don’t get laid because chicks like their music, they get laid because preselection is the most powerful attraction trigger there is, by far. The key is that there MUST be sexual tension,… Read more »

NAs
Guest
NAs

“There is no friend zone – there is only the limbo between you being fooled that a girl is actually a friend on an equitable level to your same sex friends…” – So are you saying that a woman cannot treat a guy friend of hers like she could a female friend provided she wasn’t attracted to him? This quote: “Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend” is a myth? I mean it does seem to confirm my observation that guy friends of women are mostly beta orbiters but I always suspected that this… Read more »

Shovel Face
Guest
Shovel Face

1. Wingmen are retarded. Female or male. 2. Harems and female social circles are more work than necessary. If you want to bang, just hit the streets and pull. Screw all that girl talk. It will drive you insane. I’ve never had any desire to have a friendship with a female. Being around girls you’re only friends with gets old very fast. Honestly, after 45 minutes I want to bounce. Their rhythm is just so slooowwwww. When I’m with my boys we are fast-paced. Constant jokes, moving from place to place, quick subject changes, reckless driving. With women it takes… Read more »

houseofjacques
Guest

Listen, I feel your pain. I too, am a very emotional person, and sometimes it frustrates not being able to connect with guys. So I looked for girls to connect with them and tell my stories. But guess what? Each and every time I spilled my soul at them -not looking for sex or anything- I instinctively felt them recoil. I could practically read on their faces, “You’re a MAN, stop with this bullshit. Make me laugh, cry, want to sex you up, but DON’T MAKE ME YOUR MOTHER!” So I stopped. Nowadays I deal with my emotions by myself,… Read more »

Shovel Face
Guest
Shovel Face

In my opinion, women are more selfish than men. At least in the US. Not only that, they are terrible problem solvers. Horrific! I think your fellow men will be better for sharing your feelings with. Not only are they more sympathetic, they understand you as a man and think logically. With chicks, they are going to give you some of the weirdest explanations and advice, and then they start to contradict themselves and then they change their stories, on and on. Before you know it your head is spinning and you don’t know which way is up! I once… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

When I speak of female friends I am not talking about someone you sit down and share a good cry with. No, no….just NO! I am talking about chicks you go out and have a good time with. You can’t show emotional weakness with ANY female without negative repercussions. Get used to the idea that as a man you have to live up to masculine expectations. It seems cruel that you can’t even confide in a platonic female friend about your problems and feelings, but I can assure you that it will come back to bite you in the ass… Read more »

Nas
Guest
Nas

Yes exactly, being a man is a lonely job. I guess the idea of a confidante is probably a myth for all but the most powerful of men; by whom a display of vulnerability might actually be endearing to women.

Don Julian
Guest
Don Julian

I once lived in a squat in Barcelona for a while. It was mixed sexes and the people there were very close to each other. Bonding under the shared experiences and responsibilities and risks. There were sexual relationships formed too but also friendships, including between men and women. It seemed very natural. I guess that as an environment it is quite a ‘tribal’ one. How do you think men and women who aren’t in a sexual relationship but belong to the same tribe get along, in say a primitive hunter-gatherer environment? I would guess in a similar way. It is… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

If that was directed at me, yes, I have two sisters and I get along with them fine. Family is different. I still wouldn’t get too misty eyed around them but the important thing is to avoid getting emotional around women outside your family. Women only tolerate weakness in a man in measured doses and only after sufficiently high value has been established. The higher your value, the more you can get away with but most of us aren’t rock stars so it’s best to dole out that kind of stuff only when you need to make yourself seem more… Read more »

Broquinas
Guest
Broquinas

I have a handful of female orbiters (who provide nothing beyond vagdrama) but I also have one genuine female friend. There’s little sexual tension between us, but like Julian mentioned, it’s more of a consanguineal thing. he does plug the gaps in a way my male friends cannot. I can let my guard down (but not too much) and walk away feeling less caustic and cynical. Very caring, kindergarten teacher type of girl. If I had to describe it, it wouldn’t be dissimilar to the relationship between a Plover bird and a crocodile. We each have our shit down, come… Read more »

Andrew Medina
Guest
Andrew Medina

The only female friends I have are lesbians.

I still have to be careful about that lest I be the one in a “Chasing Amy” type of situation.

Hans
Guest
Hans

The dynamics of intergender friendship is described
in a humorous but concise way in the following link.

http://www.laddertheory.com/

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

This pretty much sums up my premise:

flyfreshandyoung
Guest

Hilarious.

Especially when the chicks were forced to qualify the “friendship”. Mental gymnastics ensues

congo
Guest
congo

hilarious video!

they’re all aware of the LJBF beta orbiter provisioning dynamic and don’t see a problem in it, while simultaenously those betas who got LJBF’ed still believe in their truest intentions and understanding them better and all that shit. it really disgusts me.

amazing blog, rollo! keep it up!

trackback

[…] Intergender friendship – http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/intergender-friendship/ […]

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[…] a universe of theories by itself – in which I just got this never-to-forget piece of wisdom: “Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her […]

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[…] at a later date, and how men and women differ in their approaches to friendship based on their same-sex friendships. In all of these I brush a bit into the concept of the “friend zone” and how it’s […]

annie
Guest
annie

I know you wrote this long ago, but it’s interesting. My pastor was talking about how you’re not supposed to touch until marriage (including sideways hugs, but he’s an extremist). I asked how one differentiates between someone they’re dating and someone who is just a friend and he was horrified and said that women and men should never be friends. Obviously, I disagree. I have used the LJBF line myself and it wasn’t to be a bitch at all. I truly wanted to let the guy down easy (it would be bitchy to say “I don’t want to have sex… Read more »

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[…] My take in the book, and still is, is that men and women cannot be friends in the same way and to the same degree of intimacy that same sex friendships develop. […]

BK
Guest
BK

Best type of female friend is one that you’ve slept with a couple of times, then told (overtly or covertly) that you’d rather be friends, and actually be friends. Anytime she mentions you to her friends, they’ll always ask her what her relationship with you is, and she will say (almost always covertly) that you slept together but didnt want to be in a relationship – and her friends will see you as an alpha.

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[…] THE MYTH OF THE NTER-GENDER FRIENDSHIP […]

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

Intergender
https://soundcloud.com/user-806952833/the-saad-truth-13-pornography-sperm-competition-and-money

“Get it out of your head now that you’re even in a so called “friend zone” with any woman. There is no friend zone – there is only the limbo between you being fooled that a girl is actually a friend on an equitable level to your same sex friends, and you understanding that as soon as she becomes intimate with another guy your attentions will become a liability to any relationship she might want to have with the new sexual interest and she puts you off, or you do the same when you become so involved with another girl.”

https://soundcloud.com/user-806952833/the-saad-truth-141-the-evolutionary-roots-of-sexual-fantasies

https://soundcloud.com/user-806952833/the-saad-truth-137-sex-differences-in-lifespans-homicide-victims-suicides-ann-work-deaths

Roman Sverdlov
Guest
Roman Sverdlov

I can’t help but comment on the pic. So, on the surface, it seems like the woman likes the guy and the guy freezes off for no reason. BUT everyone is supposed to understand that, in actuality, its the other way around. The guy likes the girl more than she likes him, the reason he freezes off is because he is frustrated she isn’t returning his love. Well, since its THAT obvious, this leads to a natural question. How come when I was the one that was freezing off in social situations (not in bed like this guy mind you,… Read more »

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