The Gift

logic

After reposting my seminal essay on Vagintine’s day last week an interesting topic arose. One of my assertions in the V-Day post was that a man ought never to buy his wife or girlfriend lingerie as a gift for Valentine’sDay, and, by extension, any other occasion, special or otherwise. As I considered the input from both Sunshinemary as well as commenter ‘Lingerie’ (odd for a male commenter, OK) I began to come to a better understanding of why I’ve always promoted this principle.

This is Lingerie’s take:

This is nuts:

“Note: Never buy a woman lingerie, she will never be happy with it. A woman has to do this on her own to “feel sexy”, make sure it fits her right, and it’s HER IDEA. When you buy it for her it’s contrived and it is overt and overt is often the kiss of death for a try-hard guy.”

Women in my home wear what they are commanded to wear. It’s not a decision left to them. In the beginning of a relationship I have to train them on proper apparel, which means taking them to the store and having them model garments for me so that I can show them what works and what doesn’t work, and why. After that, they know what clothing for themselves to buy for me so that I don’t have to go shopping with them.

This was Sunshinemary’s (albeit christianized) take:

LOL. Of course you should buy your wife lingerie. So what if she thinks it’s “really a gift for you”? Isn’t her body supposed to be a gift for you per 1 Corinthians 7:3-5? She should be happy you still want to see her in it.

In the interests of full disclosure, in the past, I have bought lingerie for both past girlfriends and Mrs. Tomassi; and I have learned my lesson. This is a lesson in genuine desire versus mitigated, obligated desire. If a woman doesn’t take the prerequisite effort on her own part to want to make herself more desirable and more sexy for you as your fuck-buddy, your girlfriend, your fiancé or your wife, you are not her first sexual or mental priority. It’s a simple as that.

Whether it’s the result of a prior ‘training regimen’ as in Lingerie’s case or the gift giving scenario Sunshinemary alludes to, the effect is the same – a genuine desire to please someone is always preferable to a coerced obligation to please them.

As I’ve stated before, a woman who want’s to fuck you will find a way to fuck you. If a woman needs to be ‘trained’ to be more sexual and less self-conscious than it takes for her to take the minimal effort to buy something to make herself look and feel more sexually appealing and less self-conscious to fuck you, then you’re dealing with a woman who (at least subconsciously) believes herself to be of a higher SMV status than yourself. In other words, if she has no desire to buy things, or prepare herself to be sexy for you, to entice you, to make your sexual experience with her more memorable than her prospective sexual competitors – you do not merit the optimization of her hypergamic interest, and her involvement with you is predicated upon something other than your genuine sexual appeal to her.

As I’ve elaborated before The Medium is the Message; when single women painstakingly prepare themselves primping and preening before a night out with her girlfriends to meet random guys – that medium is the message. When every look, every clothing option, every makeup and accessory selection is carefully considered to draw potential sexual attention to herself, the message is pretty clear – she’s making an effort to be more attractive for what she values as a reward. Women who are experiencing the hormonal changes associated with the proliferative phase of their menstrual cycle (just pre-ovulation) have a psychological predisposition to want to fuck the ‘good genes’ Alpha. This phase-condition also triggers shifts in female ornamentation; in other words, when women ovulate they dress to impress.

When a woman will put forth this concerted effort to achieve a socio-sexual reward, yet later fail to, or discontinues her previous efforts to, make the same effort to sustain your socio-sexual interests in her, that medium is also a message she’s broadcasting; she perceives your status (SMV) to be less valuable than the effort necessary to sustain your interest in her.

That isn’t to say every sexual instance you have should always be this side of professional porn, but it is to say that sexual spontaneity and her maintained effort to please you of her own volition are indicators of her perception of your sexual market value (SMV) as well as the biological dictates of her menstrual phase. In other words, (perceptual) Alphas get the ornamentation and enthusiasm of women who want to impress, Betas get the comfy, phone-it-in sex, after doing the convincing.

A Gift Must Be Given

Isn’t her body supposed to be a gift for you?

Yes, but a gift must be given, not taken by force or by due, else it’s not a gift anymore.

One principle I always suggest for Men spinning plates is that they make their attentions and interests in a woman a reward for that woman’s efforts and investments in him. From a PUA perspective this a flipping of the feminine script of qualifying for her rewards, but it’s a very important principle to understand and internalize on your own. Dread Game is founded on this principle, but it goes beyond just this utility – your merit, your attention and what it’s worth for a woman to invest herself in it will set the frame for any future relationship you have with her.

When that attention is given too liberally or a guy, as the result of his feminized conditioning, thinks women want full disclosure of feelings and a man gives his attention away without some kind of earning it dynamic on a woman’s part, his attentions become effectively worthless to her.

I’m prefacing with this because it’s important to recognize the value a Man’s attention has for women when you are assessing her real estimate of your personal value. Generally, women aren’t going to overtly give a man she’s involved with an honest assessment of his value to her. This is part of him Just Getting It and the unspoken understanding that he does get it, and on some level does understand what his value is to her. An Alpha doesn’t ask direct questions about his own status with women, he intrinsically understands it as reflected through women’s behavior around him.

However, women rarely disclose a Man’s impression on her – in fact the only time a woman is prompted to reveal ‘what she really thinks’ about a man is during or after a breakup. Rather, her continued assessment of him in a relationship (long or short term) is expressed in her attitudes, behaviors, physicality, ornamentation, and her willingness (or reservations) to want to please him.

I have a real tough time with the concept of a woman’s sexuality being a gift to give to a man. When a woman perceives a man’s SMV (or Alpha assessment) to be less than what her hypergamy could merit (realistically or not) for optimization, that is when the gifting-of-sex social convention becomes the dominant psychology for her. For a man who doesn’t merit it, or a Beta provider unused to the ‘reward’ of sex, this gifting becomes a situation of intermittent reinforcement of desired behavior (your continued Beta provisioning and comfort).

One, feminized, social indicator of this dynamic is a constant, male-psychological condition of self-deprecation. For example, I mentioned in last week’s post, most Valentines Day card’s messages from men to women is one of an unworthiness of her divine love, sex and patience with him. Essentially it’s a precondition of never meriting her intimacy. When this is a man’s operational psychology with respect to women, it only serves to perpetuate his qualifying for her gift and telegraphs his status of (at least mentally) being Beta. Men often ask me where the dynamic of pedestalization comes from and why it seems to be men’s default psychology with regard to women, its root is in this gift-to-merit social/psychological dependency.

Alpha Fucks & Beta Gifts

As with the woman in my illustration in Good Girls Do, Alpha men, or men that women preselect as possessing Alpha traits and attitudes, aren’t “given the gift’ of her sexuality, she simply has desired sex with him as opportunity and environment allow. The conditional reward, or sex-as-gift dynamic isn’t even a consideration, only sexual urgency and opportunism as buffered by the filters of her conscience, convictions or emotional barriers (or lack thereof). Alpha fucks isn’t a gift, it’s desired sex of opportunity and urgency.

I think it’s worth pointing out the obvious contrast this gift dynamic has with regards to the man who’s wife was provably more sexually adventurous in her past than she ever was with him for the duration of his marriage – Saving the Best. That post, and the 700+ comment thread that followed were cause for a lot of righteous indignation from men who’d also been on the receiving end of being sold one sexual personality, but later discovered his wife (previously or concurrently) had quite another.

As callous as this is going to sound, while I can understand feelings of betrayal at the duplicity, I also understand the mechanics behind women’s dualistic sexual strategy. The most common criticism of this husband was that he was a fool for ever having married a woman unwilling to give him her best sexually. He should’ve seen the red flags and avoided investing his life, and the life of a child, in a woman with sexual hangups,..with him.

It’s very easy to be an armchair life-coach after the fact, but I’m not sure most men realize what those red flags are when they see them. Most men, by way of a lifetime of feminine sensitivity training, take women at their word rather than see the message in her medium. They never have the opportunity to truly grasp the socio-sexual strategy women employ over the course of a lifetime to optimize hypergamy and Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks. And even after he’s been on the sharp end of that equation, most guys still don’t want to believe her medium was ever the message.

If a woman is reserved with you sexually, if her conditions for being sexual are based on a perceived reward or a gifting mentality, that is the message. If a woman needs convincing to be more sexual with you, that is the message. If a woman is sexually aggressive with you, if she exhibits behaviors that indicate she’s planning to create an environment that would facilitates your having sex, that is the message. Women who are into you won’t confuse you. Understand the mechanics of how her sexual strategy works, how the particulars of it are manifested in her words, attitudes and behaviors, and how to leverage it to your advantage or see the warning signs in it, and you will be better prepared to see those red flags before you invest yourself in a woman worth or not worth investing in.

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Victor King
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Victor King

Thank you for this post Rollo. I have learned the hard way that authentic desire cannot be negotiated or “gifted.” And I thank you for pointing out the problem in Sunshine Mary’s perspective. Honestly, her Christian sermonizing consistently reveals that she doesn’t understand or want to understand that Christianity is by its nature a beta-producing religious tradition. I’ve found her negativity toward masculine religions like Islam to reek more of defensiveness, like the woman that settled for a beta and is trying to convince herself that her husband is an alpha, while belittling her neighbor who actually married an alpha.… Read more »

Laguna Beach Fogey
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Laguna Beach Fogey

Funny, I wrote about this topic today.

I used to be the one giving gifts. But at some point I figured it out and stopped.

Today, the women in my life give *me* gifts, not only their body but also items they know I’ll enjoy.

Case in point: for Saint Valentine’s Day one of the girls in my dating rotation presented me with a nice pair of aviator sunglasses.

talprofs
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talprofs

@Rollo Your ‘armchair’ view is better than many supposed ‘field reports’ that I have read! Again, you hit the nail on the head. I am attempting to come to terms with the wreckage of a 22-year marriage to a woman whose psychosexual message to me (BB) was radically different to that of her previous relationships (AF – to the extent that I know about them, and on the basis that what I do know is reliable). I saw the flags, but married her anyway (I loved her). By this token, I now realise that I wilfully entered into an act… Read more »

thebastardson
Guest

I agree 100%. My girl and I didn’t do much this Valentines… Saturday night we went to see the new Hobbit at a local Mall. We got there early to piss around and I ended up watching her throw down over $250 in Victoria’s Secret on bedroom attire. I had no idea she was going to do this at all. I didn’t hint towards it or even have the thought of it. $250 is a ridiculous amount of money to spend in my opinion, but it’s her money and she does way more than her share of paying bills, buying… Read more »

Simian Outcast
Guest

This post is another reminder that the impulses that give rise to the sexual marketplace are completely alien to the classical economics notion of a rational homo economicus.

deti
Guest
deti

Rollo, I had forgotten (again) your post “The Medium is the Message”. I went back and read it again. I think it’s one of your most important posts. From “The Medium is the Message”: “I hate the term ‘Mixed Signals’ or ‘Mixed Messages’. More often than not there’s nothing ‘Mixed’ being communicated and rather it’s a failure (willful or not) to read what a woman is communicating to a man. The average guy tends to ‘get’ exactly what a woman has implied with her words, but it takes practice to read her behavior and then more practice in self-control to… Read more »

LucasBly
Guest

So essentially, I’m reading the last four paragraphs of your essay to read:

“She married you because you are a provider, not because she was attracted to you. She’ll never be as attracted to you as she was to her previous Alpha Fucks.”

That’s a tough pill to swallow, my brother.

The issue being, of course, what to do with yourself, and with her, after you discover you got gamed into that kind of marriage.

AKA
Guest
AKA

To reinforce Rollo’s idea that “a woman who want’s to fuck you will find a way to fuck you.” That is exactly what is going on when you meet someone and get laid in way that makes you think “wow that was so easy”. This is where a lot of the – just be yourself – advice comes from. If you do not have to work very hard for it, the girl was into you all along and it is a good situation. If you are having to work too hard to impress her, it should be a red flag.… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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Water Cannon Boy

“Most men, by way of a lifetime of feminine sensitivity training, take women at their word rather than see the message in her medium.”

From trying to get men to give them attention in the workplace, to getting them to help them move, to boyfriends/husbands, to at school, most men really do not realize how often and how much effort women are using indignation, fake offense, manipulation, and numerous other forms of fronting on guys.

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

“This is where a lot of the – just be yourself – advice comes from. “

Contrast that to the times that people try to give women dating advice. You never here “just be yourself” given to women. Commercial for a tv show had a woman admitting that she’ll snoop through a guys emails. The advice given was don’t tell a guy that. Didn’t advise her to change her behavior to something that would appeal to a man, just not to tell him.

jf12
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jf12

Re: Rollo at 4:14 pm yes. In the same way that a man approaches a woman looking for indicators of her interest, a woman looks at a man for indicators of her own disinterest.

I have come to the conclusion that in the same way that the vast majority of a man’s LTR behaviors towards a woman are geared to trying to have sex with her, a similarly vast majority of that woman’s behaviors are designed to dissuade him from trying to have sex with her.

myalphaplan
Guest

Great article.

Reminds me of a time a girl told me ,”girl dress to impress other girls” as she went out in a see through shirt on a girls night.

I was not impressed and told her you inviting male attention.

I’d like to know more on this…is there any truth to girls dressing to impress other girls?

jf12
Guest
jf12

In AF, he is the gift. He is his own skittles. Always keep in mind the fundamental primate status rule of thumb: a female will service an alpha male (give him food, grooming) in order for her to 1. Have sex with him 2. Avoid being killed by him In total, complete, stark contrast, a female will accept service from a beta male (give her food, grooming) in order for him to 1. Have any hopes of having sex with her It’s not like the beta is going to up his chances with females by suddenly ceasing providing services to… Read more »

tweed
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tweed

Rollo, any particular reason you reference SSM so often? not that im complaining.

Hobbes
Guest
Hobbes

I used to think women were dressing to get male attention and get laid.. but in my 40 yrs of experience and lots of conversations with women- family, friends, etc- I have come to believe that women dress to impress other women. Its a very simple thing, whether a woman has any desire to screw a guy on a particular night or not, she wants to be the center of attention either way. By dressing up and being hotter, or higher up the social ladder, than her friends is what women tend to do everything for. I have found that… Read more »

RasAlGhul
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RasAlGhul

Unless you’re dealing with a personality disordered woman, in which case, she will behave like a porn star for as long as it takes you to get you hooked, and then go the gift/reward/control route.

Water Cannon Boy
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Water Cannon Boy

“I used to think women were dressing to get male attention and get laid.. but in my 40 yrs of experience and lots of conversations with women-family, friends… Just because they were family and friends doesn’t mean they weren’t any less concealing. Women have always told men that they dress for other women. But that’s another example of what they say vs. what they do. They dress for men, themselves, and they dress for women. I will say that the degree to which one matters will shift. The going out clothes, the work clothes, or as they age, or depending… Read more »

LostSailor
Guest

To be fair to Sunshinemary, she’s talking about sex being a “gift” in a very specific context of Christian marriage, which is a different thing. That said, I completely agree that sex offered by a woman as a “reward” for good behavior is toxic to relationships. But on the topic of buying lingerie, I used to do it, but don’t any longer. And I completely agree that men shouldn’t do it unless it’s specifically requested. I have a current FWB to whom I once casually mentioned that I like thigh-high stockings. We get together about once a month for a… Read more »

Gnarkillicious
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Gnarkillicious

Excellent post. An excellent reminder that feminine explications are useless and only behavior should dictate the proper Alpha response.

Nobo
Guest
Nobo

This reminds me of something Doc Love said years ago “a woman will never make it harder than it has to be to have sex with her if she wants to have sex with you”. Now yes LMR etc but she will actively help you to fuck her if she wants you to fuck her.

BC
Guest
BC

This post is absolutely golden, especially the middle section (A Gift Must Be Given) with respect to behavioral conditioning (intermittent reinforcement). My background is also social and behavioral psychology, and I cannot emphasize enough how important and powerful this is. Read about operant conditioning and positive and negative reinforcement. Watch and study “The Dog Whisperer” and other animal training materials. Then engage in some possibly uncomfortable introspection and try to understand not just what you are doing wrong, but how you are also reacting wrongly to various eases, prods and other stimuli. A beta who is able to understand and… Read more »

SirNemesis
Guest

A month back I was at the Post Office and noticed Valentine’s Day cards for sale. Most of them were rather lame. However, one showed two pandas on a tree with the caption, “Honey, I know you have a headache, but we’re going extinct!” ROFL.

SirNemesis
Guest

As with the woman in my illustration in Good Girls Do, Alpha men, or men that women preselect as possessing Alpha traits and attitudes, aren’t “given the gift’ of her sexuality, she simply has desired sex with him as opportunity and environment allow. The conditional reward, or sex-as-gift dynamic isn’t even a consideration, only sexual urgency and opportunism as buffered by the filters of her conscience, convictions or emotional barriers (or lack thereof). Alpha fucks isn’t a gift, it’s desired sex of opportunity and urgency.

To the contrary, Alpha fucks are a gift from the Alpha to the girl.

walawala
Guest
walawala

If this is the case why is it that some women will dump an alpha who’s banging their brains out in favour of a puffy beta provider?

This has happened to me in the past. I don’t get it.

In one case the girl I was seeing was so sexual with me. I took her home, finger-banged her. Next she goes cool. Then I notice she’s with a puffy beta shlub. Then I see she marries the guy.

Gary
Guest
Gary

I always struggled with the term ‘medium is the message’. I understood the explanation, but not the term itself.

I realise now you are actually describing ‘Revealed Preferences’. Economists have understood this shit for ages; ignore what consumers *say* they want – their true preferences are only revealed by their actions.

Just in case the terminology was confusing others as well.

The Burninator
Guest
The Burninator

Interesting article, but it begs the question then – What are the red flags BEFORE the ring goes on the finger? Take the case of the men you cite who felt they were sold a bill of goods. What they mean, as I take it, is that the woman WAS having wild crazy monkey sex with them all the time without them needing to ask, qualify or in any way have to prompt her to do so. In essence, she treats him like the alpha that she cannot keep her hands off of, and if he was a normal alpha… Read more »

www.vinaywcmd.com
Guest

Deep down, I think nearly all men know if they are trying too hard. They live in ignorance of this somewhat subconscious existence because the default is to believe their girlfriends will eventually be hypnotized by the generosity and expenditure. This method can work in the short term – more than most men from the opposing side of this argument give credit for – as the ego boost she attains can lead a giving man to the bedroom. Unfortunately, it was all too much too soon, and arriverderci she goes once the gratitude fragments… Just a few examples on below… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Re: the medium is the message. The term is from McLuhan’s observation that when people say they were watching tv, that’s what they really were doing: they weren’t watching a show they wanted to watch that just happened to be on tv, they were watching a tv that just happened to display a show. In typical usage the term implies, obviously, that the means by which a person chooses to communicate often comprises or overshadows the supposed content. Another familiar example besides watching tv (or listening to the radio, or browsing the internet etc) is tuneless whistling. The medium is… Read more »

kaizersoze71
Guest

Great post Rollo. I would like to add there exists a type of woman who will fuck you regularly but not be “that into you”. Very deceitful. Women will fake an orgasm but they won’t fake a multiple orgasm.

jf12
Guest
jf12

I am suddenly struck by the realization that an average woman would consider her *interest* in a man a gift to him, because her interest is so rare for other men. Imagine how funny it would be if an average man’s interest was considered a gift by women! Ha ha!

YaReally
Guest

Some girls say that buying sexy lingerie and dressing up for sex is only for special occasions. Well sex with me is ALWAYS a special occasion. She’s lucky I’m allowing her to fuck me, so I expect her to put in effort. If she doesn’t, that’s perfectly alright by me. I’m not a controlling man, I just know what I like. If she makes the conscious decision that pleasing me isn’t her top priority when I allow her the chance to touch my dick, that’s cool, she just becomes lower priority in my rotation under the girls who DO appreciate… Read more »

BC
Guest
BC

A+ operant conditioning post by YaReally, as always. On frame and the subject of schedules of intermittent reinforcement, it is important to note that it is worse to resist and then fold than it is to simply fold (accept a situation) from the outset. When you accept something the first time, you might still be able to get away with deciding that you won’t accept it later. (i.e., you were just seeing how something worked or you had other things on your mind and couldn’t be bothered at the time, etc.) Weak and iffy, sure, but still potentially an option.… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

@BC “it is important to note that it is worse to resist and then fold than it is to simply fold (accept a situation) from the outset.” Agreed. I’m a nice guy, I’ll give women a chance…maybe she decided to answer her door in sweatpants and no makeup because I wasn’t clear enough about what I expect. That first time I’ll go in and we’ll bang like normal, and I’ll simply make it clear after we fuck that I won’t accept that behavior next time. The next time, I’ll be going to her place with the full intention of turning… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Re: fake orgasms. Yes, it’s true. Alphas seldom develop good lovemaking skills, because literally her orgasms don’t matter. In contrast, good betas by definition are good at servicing women: even more than what betas DO, that’s what betas ARE: women-servicers. There are three peer-reviewed references, none at hand, regarding women faking more with alphas. Women fake more with facially attractive men, women fake much more with men the women believe are promiscuous (whether or not the men really are promiscuous), and women fake an enormously greater amount with total strangers or one-night-stand they will never see again – essentially all… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

@Walawala. There was a payoff to that provider in some way. Maybe easy to get him to provide money to pay for stuff. @Burminator. One of the case studies you may be referring to wasn’t a situation where she was doing it deep with him and she stopped. It was actually that she was barely doing anything, uptight and conservative, but he found an old video she kept of herself getting a train run on her by other guys. That was the hoodwink if we’re talking about the same people. But to talk about hypothetical red flags can go on… Read more »

Andrews
Guest
Andrews

@Victor King Islam – from ‘al-silm’ – to surrender, submission to Allah. Submission to the alpha masculine entity. The values and proposed organization of a society via any religion or ideology is a mimetic filter which in turn influences the genetics of a population. Interestingly enough, making the man the head of the family by law does remove the selective pressure from the males within a society to be dominant by nature. If the wife will be obedient, no matter how pathetic the husband may be because of the laws in place then there is no genetic pressure for men… Read more »

Gabriel King (@Gabriel_King182)
Guest

My subtitle for this solid post is Should I invest, or not invest in the woman I’m with. The answer depends on the amount & size of the red flags I find on her.

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

Gifts and cajoling and negotiating desire are shortcuts for lazy men who don’t want to really understand what women are reacting to. If your wife or gf doesn’t want to have sex with you, it’s because they are not aroused by you. The answer isn’t to talk them into being aroused, it’s to do the things that arouse women. It’s so simple and yet so foreign to how men are socialized to relate to women. I wonder, how much of this is a result of beta views being institutionalized and lionized by men themselves? I mean it’s much more gratifying… Read more »

Mike
Guest
Mike

Another example of the difference between the way things should be, and the way things are. Most of my struggle is to forget everything I learned about the way things should be, and focus on the way things are. Forget commanding or negotiating. Even when successful, the result is not very much fun. But expecting, and then receiving, unrequested and un-negotiated love is worth the struggle.

jf12
Guest
jf12

Given that average men’s interest in a woman is severely discounted by her, often if not always to the point of negative value (“I wish creepy guys would all drop dead!”), I wonder about the legitimacy or rather pervasiveness, of the claim that men’s attentions are women’s coin. I think there is no coin of the realm, and that some men’s attentions are much more valuable than others.

Edward
Guest

I wasn’t sure where to ask this question – so I’m using the most recent thread. The question could probably fit anywhere on the site.
What are your thoughts on human thermodynamics?(e.g. http://www.eoht.info/)

D-Man
Guest
D-Man

[i]”I have seen plenty of women go with the “alpha” with the high smv, not because he made them wet, but because she knew he was a better prize that she could show of to her friends and social circle… they are essentially in competition with each other for status, and her “desire” has very little to do with it at all.” “…regarding women faking more with alphas. Women fake more with facially attractive men, women fake much more with men the women believe are promiscuous (whether or not the men really are promiscuous), and women fake an enormously greater… Read more »

Gabriel King (@Gabriel_King182)
Guest

@ Glenn Your astute comment also applies when you flip the genders. If I said this to overweight, frumpy, or plain women, there would be weeping & gnashing of teeth.

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

Indeed and from one perspective, isn’t the feminist mission of recasting human sexuality with respect to say “fat shaming” and “Barbie” and “beauty” myths really just like Beta complaints? Fyi, just so you guys know, I let myself go in terms of weight and looks over the last 6-7 years (I’m 51). I was ill, but am better now, but am not a great looking fit guy at all right now so I’m not judging anyone. I have been quite fit and attractive points in my life but what was never clear to me was that it was GOOD for… Read more »

deti
Guest
deti

Burninator: “After the marriage, sometimes just a few short years, then we hear of the sexless husband, fully betatized, begging for sex. But based on his previous experience with the woman, what should he have been looking for to tip him off? “My question is pointed more towards the men who are alpha who get duped.” 1. A guy in that situation should take note of the kinds and types of men she was attracted to/fucked before. Huge red flag if you are markedly different from those kinds of men. For example: She used to date guys in shitty bands… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

@deti, yours is not an exhaustive list, and certainly seems to leave off a huge chunk of women, not all of which are hugely chunky. 0. Didn’t really sleep around much if at all, and definitely made you pursue her and woo her, and of course had a nice honeymoon period near (hopefully mostly after) putting the ring on. But after a few years she greatly lost interest, and the sex dropped by 75% or 80% from daily to a couple times per week if she’s up for it. Again, the question stands: what red flags should have tipped him… Read more »

Richard
Guest
Richard

As accurate and as well thought out as this article is… the conclusion is that the big brave alpha monkey gets the banana because he can jump higher…. what it misses is the hard truth that he’s still only a smelly monkey. The whole alpha beta concept is completely flawed for anything long term simply because keeping a woman around long term means she gets to see you at more vulnerable moments. You have the flu, a hang over, are in need of a shave and hair cut, your clothes unkempt, your car broke down, you rear ended someone and… Read more »

Richard
Guest
Richard

@deti @jf12 your comments are excellent…. especially “3. Entitlement mentality surrounding sex. To her, sex is a commodity which she uses as a currency for exchange. She expects something in return for giving you sex. ” but what you miss out and what jf12 alludes to, is the fact that ALL WOMEN, go in this direction and in any kind of LTR they all angle for all of the things you state. that is why no#3 is the most important to understand…. in a nutshell all women are whores and all are looking for something in return, some qualification, some… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

Hard to say without actually giving details about how she acted with and around. But just based on what you said there, sounds like she followed a script about how things should be. Step A, complete that then step B. A woman with hard dating rules, (sounds like she may have had those, but can’t tell too much by just what you’ve said), will have a mission completed attitude. So once all the steps are followed, mission is done, and probably so will the sex. And regarding women’s value of men’s attention, they do value some more than others. But… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

It’s kind of interesting to consider that the sex that is provably better at language skills is so hamstrung by a dualistic strategy that they won’t use that skill to communicate when it comes to reproduction (arguably the most important function of a human being).

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ Richard – Giggling, please tell me how you grow geisha girls like bananas and I’ll just take your advice. Otherwise…Oh, yeah, there is the thought that women are actually people and that some of them actually have something more to offer than sex – but that doesn’t seem to occur to you. So, back to geisha girls and bananas for you i guess…

Cara
Guest
Cara

Wow. Could the reason women don’t want to fuck you is actually because you are an asshole? Man up you pussies! Men are also guilty of showing only their best behaviour pre-marriage. They give chase but once the prey is caught…? If your idea of foreplay is “Honey, are you awake?” don’t be surprised if she pretends to be asleep. There’s two people post marriage and if she is horny she will fuck you. Even if she hates your guts. Angry/hate sex is better than obligatory/gift sex. Of course, damn-you-make-me-wet sex is even better. I fuck because I’m horny. Pure… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

@Cara Could the reason women don’t want to fuck you is actually because you are an asshole?…I fuck because I’m horny. Pure and simple. I wear lingerie because it makes me feel good. That one of my much taller and younger colleagues enjoys looking over my shoulder and down my blouse is only a bonus. Not discussed; entirely glossed over; completely ignored because in truth Cara wants men to just get it, is exactly what makes Cara horny. The fact that explicit discussion of what might make Cara horny makes her jump to at the chance to chime in and… Read more »

walawala
Guest
walawala

@YaReally: yes great post. But I have trouble with not getting pissed off when they don’t deliver.

AKA
Guest
AKA

@Cara. Typical woman. Can’t simply disagree. No. She has to insult others who have a different opinion than her.

BC
Guest
BC

@walawala: Because you are too invested in the outcome, and have no backup options. Always have at least one appealing backup option, even if it is just going to the gym, reading a book or seeing a movie that you have wanted to, or doing something else fun/relaxing/self-improving.

Re: Abundance mentality and outcome independence

YaReally
Guest

@walawala I agree with BC. I was going to say “you wouldn’t get mad if you had 2 other girls txting you begging to come over that you could flip your phone open and go “k you can come suck my dick but bring wine”.” But having other stuff to do like the gym work etc works too. That’s why we invite girls to something we’re doing anyway, and why I have them come over, so if they flake it’s not a big deal. It’ll come over time, as you get more girls on the go. I had one buddy… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Re: Cara. “I want what I want when I want it, and when I don’t want it there’s nothing you can do about it. So there!” Yeah, we know. AWALT. All, without exception. Except, of course, the empirically provable facts of game. So there!

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Richard, yes, sadly. Women do not know how to love, period. They do know how to submit, however.

I have come to the irrevocable conclusion that a man in love is automatically beta because of being in love. And a woman living with a LTR (post-honeymoon period) is automatically out of love, so to be submissive would be merely a rational choice for her instead of what she wants to do.

jf12
Guest
jf12

At J4G we were discussing validational sex vs transactional sex. I pointed out it was really primate alpha sex vs beta sex. In alpha sex, the female gladly services the male, and she gladly pays him (bananas and grooming). In beta sex, the female ungratefully requires servicing from the male, and demands payment from him (bananas and grooming). Parenthetically, to Richard, the alpha male is NOT the one who jumps highest for the banana: he’s the one who taps his foot impatiently as the females climb over each other trying to be the first to get the banana to bring… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

” That one of my much taller and younger colleagues enjoys looking over my shoulder and down my blouse is only a bonus.”
Ah, a clearcut case :-
Tell her that if she doesn’t stop ogling and harassing you, you’ll put in a complaint to management about Superannuated Midget Discrimination.

My invoice is, as usual, in the mail. 30 days.

Richard
Guest
Richard

Thanks Rollo…. your article only asks questions…. doesn’t really provide an answer to the problem. I have no idea how your marriage is, but I assume it involves a large helping of tedious sacrifice ‘for the greater good’ combine with some kind of self effacing belief that you really benefit from it, or get some magic reward from bringing up kids. For my part I’ve been there and tried it all, and while spinning plates is a solution for guys in their 20s-30s, who can marvel at themselves getting laid with multiple women….. frankly it’s a time consuming distraction to… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Tam good catch! Only a woman would look down another woman’s blouse in order to better see the lingerie! “Where did you get that? It’s so cute!”

redcastle600
Guest

God forbid any man have expectations…

david
Guest
david

Rollo, what do you think about recommitted Christian virgins waiting for marriage? Isn’t this just a sinister shit test? In your book, it says you don’t have to be banging the plates, just that you “know” it would be possible. Can you hint at what these indicators would be in a more conservative setting?
Thanks

jf12
Guest
jf12

Re: virtual knowledge. “Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” For those of us who are not as blessed, we kinda have to poke it with our finger to see if it’s real or not.

deti
Guest
deti

david: “what do you think about recommitted Christian virgins waiting for marriage? Isn’t this just a sinister shit test? In your book, it says you don’t have to be banging the plates, just that you “know” it would be possible. Can you hint at what these indicators would be in a more conservative setting?” What do you mean by “recommitted Christian virgins waiting for marriage”? Do you mean actual virgins who have returned to faith and want to get married? Or do you mean reformed sluts claiming the mantle of “born again virginity” and who have returned to church at… Read more »

Rol
Guest
Rol

@Richard It really doesn’t get any better than either spinning plates and/or paying for a pro. You want commitment from an attractive woman? You need to be well above average in at least one or possess an above average combination of looks/status/money. I’m seeing more and more women simply living a dual lifestyle. Men have been whipped so hard and for so long that they’re either completely oblivious or in denial. I saw the female of a couple that lives next door, cutting through the middle of some townhouses behind my house, to get back to her home through a… Read more »

Bachelorocles
Guest
Bachelorocles

Well done, Rollo! Well done! When a woman wants you sexually, when you give her pussy throbs, she will make every effort to make herself as sexually attractive to you as possible – blowjobs will be masterfully executed and she will enter sub-space when blowing you. She will do more: she will slyly discovery your tastes (style of pussy shaving, lingerie preferences, stockings, fishnets, bustiers, boots, fuck me shoes, leather skirts, etc) and she will comply with your tastes without you having to ask or bargain. “One, feminized, social indicator of this dynamic is a constant, male-psychological condition of self-deprecation.”… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

Hey guys, your favorite trouble maker is back! Still training to be the ultimate pussy chasers I see. Sigh. Anyway… Rollo says, in the midst of the lecture: “I have a real tough time with the concept of a woman’s sexuality being a gift to give to a man. When a woman perceives a man’s SMV (or Alpha assessment) to be less than what her hypergamy could merit (realistically or not) for optimization, that is when the gifting-of-sex social convention becomes the dominant psychology for her. For a man who doesn’t merit it, or a Beta provider unused to the… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
Guest

@LT – just not your pussy, thanks. I prefer younger, hotter, tighter. And if men didn’t place such an incomprehensibly high estimation on women’s sexuality, all of their emotional problems around sex would (more or less) instantly evaporate… Thought experiment: Let’s governmentally mandate that all women must have sex with any guy who says “let’s fuck”. This will fix all men’s emotional problems around sex. By reading what you’ve written you have absolutely no emotional problems or attachment to sex, so it will not be a problem for you when a 70yo has sex with you. Boys, I think that… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest

LT is a great example of the medium being the message. I find it incomprehensible that the mind behind those comments is capable of thinking rationally about what people have said on a subject before re-interpreting it into a covert-communication base and re-expressing it into a context-based morass of nonsense. Her ultimate goal is simply attention.

jf12
Guest
jf12

@BlakPoisonSoul, yes. The life that most men lead is already enough proof that the entirety of the problem is that all women negatively value sex from most men. It’s not even amusing for LT to pretend the opposite.

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@BlackPoisonSoul – Great minds think alike – I imagined a similar thought experiment. It’s funny, she uses an economic frame to analyze this but clearly doesn’t understand the first thing about economics. As an aside, women routinely score like male children on economic knowledge and it gets worse with more education – see economist Bryan Caplan’s work on this topic. She’s essentially pushing a demand based view of the market, forgetting the production side. It’s as though she thinks men set the “price” for pussy – giggling. As well, she makes the absurd statement “since men will give the bodies… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

You miss the point. Again. Women have only learned to treat sex as a commodity because of so very many centuries of being reinforced to believe it. As sunshinemary pointed out, its even written into the bible for crying out loud! Who wrote those damn scriptures? Women??? Don’t be ridiculous. Go look at the header of her blog – “Pro- family and patriarchy.” That’s right, her entire framework is patriarchy! Let me try this one more time: You behave like attracting the opposite sex is the most important thing that there is in the whole sphere of human experience. It… Read more »

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ LT – Giggling… Please demonstrate gynocentrism more for us, it’s at least as valuable as Rollo’s posts. Hint – sex isn’t the most important thing to men. In fact, Rollo’s message is that the “best” game is one in which women and sex aren’t that important to us. That you miss all of this is so typical of a woman – even many who’ve supposedly taken the Red Pill. Alison Tienan (Typhon Blue) is similarly disposed even though she’s an MRA who is part of AVFM. As for Betas and lower SMV men, the only reason they are so… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

@Glenn, correct. Sex is only the most important thing to a man if he’s not getting any. Having gotten sex, then the most important thing is a sandwich.

jf12
Guest
jf12

It continues to simultaneously amaze me and bore me that AWALT. All women think it perfectly fine that the majority of undesired men should consent willingly to do without sex and to never try.

livingtree2013
Guest

Glenn, I TOTALLY understand what Rollo said here. And I agree with most (though not all) of what he says, in almost (but not all) of his articles. I understand it far better than many of his readers do, evidently. If sex isn’t all that important to men, then please explain to me why it is that nearly every comment on this article (and almost all of his others too) indicate exactly the opposite? How would I possibly get the idea that sex isn’t the central focus of your lives from anything said in the comment feed??? I entirely agree… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Ah, the ol’ “What’s really on your minds?” ploy. “Let’s just talk, shall we?” A True Man will dole out his True Feelings only after the sex, as a reward for her being a good girl.

livingtree2013
Guest

Just read the comments section in Rollo’s post about V-day (which I loathe as well). Interspersed with the comments about how V-day is about buying the right gift that will get you the sex you want, is this precious gem: “Tomorrow I’m going to treat myself to a hike. It’s beautiful out here in the winter. I recently finished building my own guitar too, and I might spend a good portion of the day playing it. I also have a lot of repair work to do on some other guitars and I’ll get to that. I also recently built a… Read more »

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ LT – Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Don’t be offended if I observe that your hamster is peddling pretty hard though. Men are human beings and we have all kinds of needs/desires/interests. Maslow’s hierarchy provides some insight here. Sex is a constant desire, and inchoate/reptile brain in nature and can become the most important thing to us in a given moment, but in no way is a man’s life run utterly by his sexual desire. You don’t see us intensely focused on appearance in the way women are, yes? Also, the difficulty most of us have in convincing our… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Re: women’s essential narcissism. Perel gives good head discussions.
http://www.estherperel.com/male-sexuality-vs-female-sexuality/
Male sexuality in itself is no gift to the female, but the male’s response to her sexuality is his gift to her. An important and not subtle distinction, merely one more level up in the mirror chamber.

LostSailor
Guest

@LT How would I possibly get the idea that sex isn’t the central focus of your lives from anything said in the comment feed??? Gee, men making comments about women, sex, and relationships on a blog devoted to men talking about women, sex, and relationships. How strange it that? Anyway, the essence of it is, this sex-driven social system isn’t benefiting anyone, its really messed up. I’m just trying to tell you that from a woman’s perspective. Don’t blame us. Feminism unleashed the sexual revolution and gave us this “sex-driven social system” (actually, it’s not all that sex-driven, but you… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

No of course you don’t intensely focus on the nitpicky details of a woman’s appearance Glenn, because you don’t need to. Women are marketing the commodity to you as the consumer. You are just the beneficiaries of the work required to maintain your interest. I’ve heard endlessly from men who say that they just like natural-looking women who aren’t materially obsessed, except the evidence is quite to the contrary. Sex is an extremely competitive industry. The women who invest all that effort into looking hot are the ones with the largest customer base! Any woman who says she dresses to… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

Oh god, not the evo-psych bullshit again, Rollo. Why do you always revert back to that crap anytime I show up? You write such great articles, and then this nonsense? I know you only say it because I fundamentally disagree with your apparent reason for saying such bright things, you’re just trying to provoke me to anger. Women’s sexuality is pragmatic and opportunistic? Yes, very. Only by supposed necessity and lack of apparently profitable alternatives. And without profit, we do not seem to have the willpower to make it different – social deviance is very difficult, and comes at a… Read more »

LostSailor
Guest

@ DyingTree: Any woman who says she dresses to impress other women is a flat out liar. Of course she is, because a woman would never say that. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t still true, because it is. For women, being hot pays the bills way better than brains, character or personality do. So you’re saying that women do view sex as purely a transactional thing. Good to know. Of course, you’re also wrong here. Maybe for purely mercenary women like yourself being hot trumps all other character or personality traits, but for the rest of the world, and… Read more »

jf12
Guest
jf12

Re: “We’d probably prefer it if more men viewed THEMSELVES as valuable, honestly.” “Except for all you creeps. You creeps stay away.”

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@LostSailor – Indeed on LT’s “failed relationships” comment. She occasionally makes an interesting observation but always reveals herself to be mired in gynocentric arrogance and hostility. Just today I’ve learned that I only love women for sex and that I’ll sleep with any woman who will let me. @LT – Do you get that saying such things is denigrating and obnoxious? Should I call you a stupid c**t in return? I’m not angry at you so I won’t but you’ve done the same thing to every man on this board and yet you think you have something to “teach” us?… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

@LostSailor: “Don’t be so confident, because you have no idea what you’re talking about and you know nothing about the relationships of any man on this board.” No? Don’t be so confident of that, I’m pretty perceptive (even though you may not like what I have to say). Remember that line from Batman Begins: “Its not who you are underneath; it’s what you do that defines you.” I’m not saying this to shoot you down. I’m saying it because you guys do a lot of talking here (especially when you get all provoked after I show up to stir the… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

Glenn, do you not get the paradox in what you just wrote? “Just today I’ve learned that I only love women for sex and that I’ll sleep with any woman who will let me.” “@LT – Do you get that saying such things is denigrating and obnoxious?” Really? Because you just confirmed everything I said. It is an unfortunate reality that the naked truth is often taken as an insult. Its the human condition: we build all sorts of constructs to avoid facing ourselves. But really Glenn, have sex. Lots. I approve. Just please, would you stop judging the women… Read more »

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@LT Look at that hamster go!