Wait for it?

Iron Rule of Tomassi #3

Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. It’s sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fuck you will find a way to fuck you. She will fly across the country, crawl under barbwire, climb in through your second story bedroom window, fuck the shit out of you and wait patiently inside your closet if your wife comes home early from work – women who want to fuck will find a way to fuck. The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.

If a girl is that into you she’ll have sex with you regardless of ASD or having her friends in the room videotaping it at a frat party. All women can be sluts, you just have to be the right guy to bring it out in them, and this happens before you go back to her place. If you have to plead your case cuddling and spooning on the bed or getting the occasional peck on the cheek at the end of the night, you need to go back to square one and start fresh.

I’m probably going to ruffle a few PUA feathers here, but I’ve never been a proponent of breaking down LMR (last minute resistance) with a woman. Maybe it’s a result of experiences in my rock star 20’s, but at some point I came to the conclusion that sex with a woman who’s turned on by me is always a far better than one where I had to sell her on the idea of sex with me before the act. Now don’t take this to the binary extreme and assume I mean the only good sex you’ll ever have is a first night lay (FNL) with some tart who can’t keep her legs closed. What I mean is that if you’re still trying to figure out what the magic words are to convince some girl that she ought fuck you after 3 dates – or longer – you’re in desire negotiation hearings counselor. You are wasting your time and limiting your opportunity with better prospective women in waiting out a woman who would defer less than 100% of her real desire to have sex with you. The sex will NEVER be worth the wait. A prostitute would be a better alternative.

Genuine desire cannot be negotiated. Once you get past a certain point in the waiting game, what once had the chance to be an organic, sexual desire becomes mitigated negotiation of a physical act. Just the fact that you’re having to make a case for yourself (even covertly) is evidence that there are other factors inhibiting her capacity to be sexual with you. As I stated, barring a physical inability, this is almost always because of an unmentioned agenda on her part. It may be due to a concurrent boyfriend, it may be a natural internal caution, it may be that your process is telegraphing ‘beta’ to her, or it may be that she’s filibustering you while waiting to see if another, more preferable guy pans out for her, however, none of these are insurmountable if she has a genuine desire to bang you. Many a cheated on boyfriend knows this is true. In any circumstance, sex with you is not an urgency for her. If  she’s perceiving your value as as high as it should be, she wont hesitate longer than a few dates to become sexual – and she certainly wont tell you she’s making you wait. Hypergamy doesn’t afford a woman much waiting time with a Man she sees as superior stock.

One of the more frustrating situations I often encounter comes from guys who’ve been OVERTLY told that they’re being made to wait for sex until some circumstance or criteria is met for the woman. The standard filibuster (or loss-leader as the case may be) usually comes with the reasoning that she “needs to feel comfortable” before she has sex with a guy. Even more distressing is the guy who was getting laid, only to be told the same thing by an existing girlfriend. If you find yourself in either of these situation there are a couple of things to bear in mind.

First and foremost, sex, by it’s nature is uncomfortable. Sex that is motivated by mutual, genuine desire is a tense affair, fueled by testosterone, anxiety and urgency. When two people get together for a first dance ( a precursor to copulation), it’s rarely if ever an intimate slow dance. It’s salsa, it’s grinding, it’s pumping, it’s heat and it’s sweat. What it’s not is comforting and familiar. It’s not a nice warm bathrobe fresh out of the dryer. Don’t take this the wrong way, but sex is threatening. It needs to be, and you need to be considered a sexualized player in her personal sphere. Overtly agreeing to wait for her to become sexual is anti-seductive. It confirms for her that you aren’t a sexualized player to her; an Alpha wouldn’t wait for sex and she knows this. Worse still, it devalues her SMV as being worth less than of your utmost urgency.

Secondly, always remember why women resort to OVERT communications (the language of men) – so there is no, or less, margin that her message will be misunderstood. If a woman, point blank says, “I’m not having sex with you until X,Y, and Z happens”, what is her MEDIUM telling you? That there is a precondition that’s more important to her than fucking you with genuine, uncontrollable passion. You want her to be so into you that she’s willing to break the rules. The ideal situation is for her genuine passion to be so uncontrollable for you that she’d renounce her religion and throw her convictions to the wind to be with you. That might seem a bit dramatic, but you get the idea. The good news now is that she’s being overt, which means she’s exhausted her reserves to be covert and, assuming you’re not so desperate as to delude yourself, you can NEXT her and move on.

Rapport ≠ Comfort

A lot of “waiters” find all that a tough road to hoe. They want to stick it out and see if things “might develop”, and NEXTing their ‘waiting girl’ seems a lot like throwing the baby out with the bath water after all the time they’ve invested in building what they think is rapport. Usually this is due to the guy not spinning (enough) other plates that would bear more fruit. However, keep this in mind; waiting for sex isn’t building rapport. There’s a lot of confusion about rapport, most of which is due to well meaning PUAs conflating rapport with comfort. It’s a pretty esoteric term, but rapport is a connection; it’s an implied trust between two acting agents who previously had never met or only have limited knowledge of each other. You can have rapport with an animal – that’s the connection, it’s instinctual.

Comfort comes from familiarity and predictability; all decidedly anti-seductive influences. And while comfort has it’s own merits in interpersonal relationships, it is not the basis for genuine, passionate sexual desire. For people (myself included) involved in a marriage or LTR, it’s serves our long-term best interest to convince ourselves that sex is better when your comfortable with your partner, however, the reality of it sings a different tune. Here’s an easy illustration: As reported by both men and women alike, which of these circumstances provokes the most intense, memorable sexual experiences ? When a couple plans and arranges a romantic “date night” to ‘keep it fresh’ and reconnect? Or is it the ‘make-up sex’ after a horrible breakup, or narrowly averted breakup, where long dormant competition anxiety is brought back into being a very real possibility again? If you said the breakup, you’re correct! One scenario is comfortable, the other uncomfortable. One has the element of predictable certainty, the other is chaotic and uncertain, however in both situations there is definitely a working mutually connective rapport operating.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

138 comments on “Wait for it?

  1. This doesn’t come down to “she has to fuck me in three dates or else”, it is about having an awareness of when you are dealing with ASD and when you are dealing with a woman who is less than thrilled with your presence. There is still going to be a little resistance with some women even if they do want sex. You just have to ferret out the intent and proceed accordingly. Although I don’t agree with the idea that you can judge a “quality” woman by how long she waits to put out, I think that most of us would agree that a woman who puts out quickly loses a couple of points if you are considering her for a relationship.

    Ten or fifteen years ago it might have been more acceptable to give women some leeway but today you have to be extra aggressive on the physical end and extra vigilant to avoid getting suckered into sitting on the bench.

    Roosh wrote an excellent post awhile back about how the sex culture is changing to the point where you need to get it in as quickly as possible if you ever want to at all. Last year I made that mistake with a chick I met at my favorite hipster bar (you know which bar I’m talking about). She was interested but lukewarm to the point where I just let it play out over the course of a few weeks. Finally one night I managed to get her back to my place after running into her at the same bar. We were making out on my couch. I had my hands up her dress and after a few minutes I pulled her into the bedroom. I can’t remember the reason why I didn’t push harder (must have been one of those nights….I don’t remember her putting up much resistance…probably too many drinks…) but after just a couple of minutes of me slowing down she was calling a cab to go home.

    The next time I saw her I knew that it was now or never. Tried to get her back to my place again. I thought for a minute that she was DTF but after waiting for her for a few minutes I got impatient and hauled ass. The next night I ran into her again, this time she was with the guy that is now her boyfriend.

    There is no doubt in my mind that had I pressed just a little harder the night she was at my place that I would have not only gotten the lay, and if I had played it cool after that I could have been the one dating her right now. In retrospect she was spinning her plates and it turned out that this other dude did something right and I screwed up.

    Getting laid is easier than it has ever been but with the way things are today you can’t slack off until you’ve gotten it in at least once. At that point she is more invested and the power dynamic changes so you SHOULD slack off a bit.

    Until you have fucked her always assume the sale but never take for granted that the deal is closed.

  2. Rollo, the blog is great. Easily taking over as the top blog out there for men.

    What about when you get the, “we’re not having sex tonight” line when your with a chick the first night or on the first couple dates? I usually take it in stride as a shit test and say, “I was about to tell you the same thing.” just not drawing to much attention to it. Is there a better way to handle it.


  3. “When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority.”

    I am going to add this to my personal manifesto (which doesn’t actually exist yet.)

    I am adding you to my blogroll man. The site is excellent.

  4. “A prostitute would be a better alternative.”

    Amen. Having some distance from my former marriage now, the thing that strikes me most about my married sex life, was how I really was “paying” for sex anyway. She always used it as a negotiation tool and/or reward, and for years I was “paying” emotionally and physically as a result. The funniest part, exactly as you say Rollo, is that it just wasn’t very good sex, ever. /Me shakes head…

    Throughout my life, I was always against “paying” for sex, and would never have considered a prostitute as an alternative a year ago. But with new perspective comes new understanding, and though I’m still not interested in hiring someone for sex (I’d rather earn it), it is clear to me that paying a pro would be cheaper, easier, and a more honest sexual transaction/interaction than I ever had with my ex-wife.

    Rollo, your writing especially has been an indispensable tool in helping me find the words and thoughts for my newly opening awareness. Thank you!

  5. A woman that deeply desires you would want to have sex with you with gusto. If she is any bit hesitant then she is not terribly interested in you. It is as simple as that. Keep your options open and ready to walk away if she uses sex as a bargaining tool. Women who are in love with you and desire you will never do that.

  6. What I’m facing is a kind of “counter-insurgency game” from my current gf.

    She’s launching the “anti-surge” on me.

    After successfully gaming her here’s what I’m facing…a kind of sexual Falujah and am having troubles.

    First, I’ve got options…no issue there. There are at least 3 other very desirable women that I have gamed to the point where I can move that forward anytime.

    But here’s my situation. Endless shit-testing and complaining.

    I can’t keep up.

    The latest is that after I decided to go away for a night without her, she came over.

    When she arrived she was pouting and turned her head when I went in to kiss her.

    The rest of the evening was a matter of hanging out, watching tv on the couch and her not responding to my touch. So I just played it cool and chatted and acted cool.

    Then….she suddenly says “I come over and you don’t even try to have sex with me…are you getting it somewhere else?!??”

    Me: “Yah, that’s it….no wonder I’m exhausted..” agree and amplify.

    But of course it doesn’t stop there…so she pushes…

    I’m stuck on that shit-test, my response is to point out her behaviour and my reaction to it.

    She’s still not buying this, somehow I’m not making a move on her and she’s feeling less than desirable, we’re in a crisis..blah blah blah.

    Insidious, manipulative and all done very naturally putting me on the back foot.

    Any words of wisdom on how to handle would be great, but feel like I’m losing that control here and stuck on what to say.

    1. Say to her: “We need to talk. Its not working out between us…”

      She can only react two ways to that. Positively or negatively.

      If she says sorry and promises to stop being a cunt then hold her to that promise.

      If she reacts negatively, then DTB.

    2. If you have other desirable options that are not constantly testing you, and one increasing undesirable option, then I am not actually seeing a problem. Tell her to smarten the fuck up or get lost. She is a child, and must be disciplined as such.

    3. I’ve given advice and examples of stuff I do in response to similar situations, but my approach seems to be at huge odds with your personal philosophy and personality.

      I advocate extreme anger in certain situations.

    4. Tell her to cut that shit out or get lost. Clearly she has security issues and does not feel secure enough in your relationship. Either address what those are, or tell her point blank that you will not be standing for it. Put your foot down.

  7. I did dump a woman who wanted to make me wait. It wasn’t even so much that I was aware of all the stuff above, well I was in a general way but the thoughts were still inchoate. This was before I’d ever heard of the manosphere. She was throwing off so many IOIs even I couldn’t have missed it and that’s saying something. If she’d asked me for a couple of months I’d probably have beta-ed. But no it’s worse than that, she comes out with, she’s a Catholic now and she wants to wait until she’s ready to get married. No way. I was clueless enough that I basically never got laid when I was college age and I wanted to have my time to make up for that as a young professional type. I was in no mood to throw in the towel and just tell myself that casual sex wasn’t for me, so I friendzoned her. As you can predict, her interest didn’t wane at all. Even after we fell out of touch she was asking mutual friends where was I nowadays.

  8. Rollo,

    Are you advocating or suggesting women who chose not to screw men on 1-3 dates or within a shorter time frame where she doesn’t know him very well are women who are not worth waiting for? That a woman that prefers to wait to get to know a guy she has the hots for better before sleeping with him is not a woman worth waiting for?

    Are these women playing games to you or could it possibly be that some women simply don’t believe in IMMEDIATLEY opening their legs for every stranger to Tom, Dick and Harry that gives her the tingles within a 72 hour time frame?

    1-3 dates these days can range from 1-7 days.

    Also, is this advice you would give to your daughter? That she should not wait to sleep with a man until he has proven he has more than an interest in her than sex? How the heck can a woman determine a guys intentions within 1-3 dates? Why should a woman give her most precious thing (her body) to a bunch of random men simply b/c they give her the tingles?

    Women date quite extensively these days. If in fact what you are suggesting is that women shouldn’t make a guy wait for long after being on a few dates, then I guess women would be sleeping with a bunch of men simply to prove she isn’t trying to make him wait? HUH And doesn’t your advice lend to the riding the cock carousel that so many MEN complain about with women in their early years?

    I mean really – what kind of message is this? That women should just sleep around with EVERY GUY that gives her the tingles? Oh and what about all the complaints from men about how they can Rarely find women to marry b/c they don’t want to settle down with women who ride the cock carousel. You are sending mixed messages here.

    One hand you are saying men should not wait for women who hold off on sex, yet if every woman did this, this would mean she was or is riding a cock carousel since there will be plenty of men in her lifetime that give her the tingles and gets the gina juices flowing. Would you Rollo, marry and pro create with a woman who slept with you after 3 dates? Would you not wonder how many other men she slept with after 1-3 dates?

    Frankly, I think its disgusting to make women who chose not to act on every sexual desire to sleep with a man as out to be game players not worth a man’s time. I guess I will be alone the rest of my life if most men feel like this. What a sad world we live in these days. Where women who don’t sleep around are seen as not worth waiting for.

    QUALITY means nothing anymore….

    1. Really Neecy, your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired:

      Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

      What would be too long to wait? 3 months? 6 months? The operative isn’t the time period, it’s the intent behind the wait. The sex isn’t worth the wait when genuine desire is mitigated by some other influencing factor. It makes little difference if the woman is chaste as a pastors wife or a $10 whore, the sex isn’t worth the wait.

      And just to help your reading comprehension grade for the next essay:

      Now don’t take this to the binary extreme and assume I mean the only good sex you’ll ever have is a first night lay (FNL) with some tart who can’t keep her legs closed.

    2. Neecy,

      Reread this part a few times:

      “The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.”

      Here is the straight dope. Any guy with experience and savvy knows that many women run this scam where they have sex or have had sex with the guy who generates the tingle right away, but then make the beta provider “work” for the pussy until she is “ready and comfortable”. And the problem is that many women when working the beta provider guy are really good at faking the “good girl” routine when they are the same girl who got banged in the bathroom in the club. So my question to you is how does a guy differentiate between the real deal that authentically wants to take it slow versus the one who is playing the guy she sees as Dad material but doesn’t really get the tingle fully ramped. This is a classic case of Gresham’s law where bad money drives out good. In the current SMP, a guy essentially has to start with the presumption he is dealing with a promiscuous girl who has in fact given it up really quick for other guys.

    3. Neecy,

      We had a quite lengthy discussion on this over at Susan Walsh’s Hooking Up Smart not too long ago. I can’t provide the link because the site is blocked from this PC, but go to Hooking Up Smart and look for the post “Price Discrimination in Sex”. This issue kind of being alluded to is you have some women trying to sell the same newspaper to one guy for $10 while the other guy gets it for a dime or for free. Odds are if you are getting charged $10, then you’ve got someone trying to play you because otherwise she’d charge you the same dime she charged the other guys. In case the metaphor isn’t clear, I’m not talking prostitution here, but if you follow that discussion you’ll see the point.

        1. What is good advice for a relationship minded woman may not be identical to the advice for man looking to be sexually successful. I think it is a safe assumption that Rollo isn’t writing strategy, tactics, and mindset for the woman seeking marriage.

          I wouldn’t tell a woman to either hold off on sex or not hold off on sex based on monogamy or no monogamy. Do what you want, and accept the consequences of your choices.

          In my experience, men vary quite a bit in terms of whether they have a problem or not with the degree of a woman’s past sexual experience so I think some women overstrategize just this aspect. I think what guys universally have contempt for though are women that lie about their experience with a guy they put into the “relationship prospect” box.

          1. Agreed. ( It’s a problem both sexes have to figure out. You guys don’t want to commit to a slut, we don’t don’t want to get pumped and dumped by a player.)

  9. The extreme emphasis on hookup and sex first, relationship later has really changed.

    Twenty years ago when I was fully in the SMP in the midwest, it was just on the cusp of changing. Then, most women could get a BF without being expected to put out. There were a lot of women who would do all but P in V sex; but a growing number getting into hookup. You had to be aggressive with escalation to get anywhere.

    Now: it seems to be all hookup. A lot of men I know have a 3 date rule:

    “Sex by date three, or I’m gonna flee.”

    And there are exceptions. And “sex” might mean everything from heavy petting/makeout to oral sex to full on intercourse; but intercourse needs to happen ASAP. If she’s cutting them off at oral sex without intercourse, a lot of men just blow them out.

    1. What EXACTLY is the mixed message here in just this post? I think you are conflating JUST THIS PARTICULAR POST with something you’ve read or perceived elsewhere.

  10. Believe it or not Neecy brings up a decent point. That’s why I said it isn’t about the time frames it is about the intentions. The problem these days is that MOST of the time a woman who refuses to put out isn’t doing so out of innocence. If she’s reasonably attractive and over the age of 20 chances are she’s already had a pretty good sample of the cock carousel and if she tries to pull that shit on you it’s a bad sign.

    The more “innocent” girls I have been with who had only had one or two partners before me, I was still banging them with only token resistance even though I probably would have waited a little while for either one of them. Contrast that with a chick who I had ALREADY fucked who later claimed to have “turned a new leaf” who didn’t want to have sex with me anymore. THOSE are the kinds of situations to watch out for.

    One thing to remember though neecy- life isn’t fair. Double standards are a bitch but they exist for a reason. Also, women are in this position because they dug their own grave. They wanted to be like men. They wanted to fuck like men. This devalued your most valuable commodity to the point where you have to give it away for cheap. Complain to the sisterhood.

  11. The mixed messages are not within this post but from the manosphere in general. I should have been clear on that.

    I would like to point out that just because a woman doesn’t have sex with you immediately doesn’t mean that she isn’t attracted to you. She could even be overwhelmed by attraction, resulting in a certain withdrawing and shyness.. Or god forbid, an interest in a relationship. Or an aversion to hurt. Take your pick.

  12. Well, this was both enlightening and depressing. I am a female college student who enjoys being single, parties, flirting, etc. etc. but who is seeking out a long-term relationship and eventual marriage. I have had sex with two people, and only two people, in one-night-stand situations (I am not proud of either and never discuss them as a result; I am only happy that I do not have to deal with the stigma of being a virgin). Since these, which happened within the same month first semester freshman year, I have realized several things that I think are relevant to your post:

    1. I do not enjoy one-night stand hook ups, regardless of whether or not they involve sex, and many people agree with me. There is simply not enough incentive to make the experience truly pleasurable for the other person, and I find that I am not comfortable enough with a partner who is more or less a stranger to have the kind of passionate, good sex that I desire, or to guide him about how to make it better for me. I’m also pretty disinterested in making it extra good for him. *MANY GIRLS FEEL THIS WAY. IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO THE GUY, which is what you imply when you say “It’s sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fuck you will find a way to fuck you.”*

    2. Even when I am hooking up with a guy who I genuinely like and VERY MUCH DESIRE TO HAVE SEX WITH, I will always end it before it gets to sex. I say no for several reasons. First, every guy I have spoken with about this–both friends and past hook ups–has said that sex with a condom sucks and many of them even say they would rather jack off than have sex with a condom. They also say that most girls they hook up with give bad blow jobs (which I believe, considering that I am not going to be that into sucking the dick of some guy who I hardly know or care about, regardless of how sexually attracted I am to him). One of them said he has never actually had an orgasm from a hook-up BJ. Anyway, that aside, I’m not going to let some guy I hardly know fuck me without a condom because that is pretty much asking for an STD, especially given the number of guys I could have had sex with at this point. And I don’t want to subject him to shitty condom sex, since it’s just not worth it ACCORDING TO GUYS. I’m not going to venture into BJ territory for the aforementioned reason. Well, that just leaves a sad handjob, and no one likes handjobs.

    3. There have been several guys who I have really, really genuinely liked and been quite attracted to as well. I did not have sex with any of them, as you suggested. And guess what? Your advice would have served me pretty badly. Pretty much EVERY other experience I have had with men in the past year of going to college has convinced me that not putting out immediately, even with a guy I really like, is a much better strategy. I have hooked up (in the loosest sense of the word so basically including making out/fooling around) probably 12 guys. I have casually dated some of them. NONE of them have turned out to be the one-and-only-best-guy-ever-god-I-wish-he-would-date-me type of perfect dude. Some of the ones who seemed like the perfect gentlemen in the beginning have actually turned out to be boring, stupid, lazy, or just total assholes, even though they seemed perfect at the beginning.

    What I’m trying to say is, if I followed your advice, not only would I have a number in the double-digits, but I’d also have countless more regrets and a nasty stretched out snatch, especially if I continued for the next three years of college and beyond.

    But at least all these guys would know that I wasn’t using them and playing mindgames, right? So they probably would think I’m a pretty cool girl.

    1. That may be a good strategy for you, but for a guy to patiently bide his time in the hopes that 3 months later you’ll become sexual with him; that isn’t a pragmatic use of his time or effort – particularly in the knowledge that women have a proven capacity for instant sexual arousal with the right guy under the right circumstance.

      As I started with, if you’re being made to wait for sex, the impulse is already mitigated by external influences. It’s never worth the wait in comparison to a woman who’s genuinely so passionate about a guy that she’ll break her own rules.

    2. People have different sexual strategies. Some men are looking for a more conservative minded woman like you, who does not have a sex drive high enough to compel her to have sex.

      Many men that you might like however have a different sexual strategy, and prefer an unstoppable heat in their women.

      It’s hard for men to empathize with alternate sexual strategies. I find it near impossible not to belittle men who prefer lifetime monogamy with a virgin, and such men find it difficult not to belittle my lack of concern for partner count in a mate.

      It seems your sexual strategy is geared toward long term mating. You’ll probably wind up with a low libido beta-ish guy. If that’s not what you want, you’ll likely need to put out when the future is uncertain.

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  14. For Neecy, or other girls inquiring whether you should have sex with a guy within 3 dates. Yes.

    Why would you gamble with a high value man that makes you tingle like crazy? You think he doesn’t have girls that will bang him? Are suggesting from having your own pedestal for your own pussy? Is it so fantastic that he should wait? And if it is, how should he know?

    if you want your shot at the guy you really want, you will give him what he wants. Your body. it’s your behaviour and actions after sex that determines if he wants to keep you.

    in the slut marketplace, no pussy is that high value any more.

    1. Does this man have any incentive at all to commit to anyone in this climate? A girl can play by the rules of everyone else and give up her body like everyone else, to high value men. This might easily lead to trying out many high value men and not being chosen, and ending up with a partner count that is a little too much for any future high value man… I don’t know how these men’s minds work, but some of them seem to value a low partner count and look out for signs of being too easy. Maybe some are more comfortable with it and wouldn’t hold it against you if you slept with them on the 3rd date. How many do you think are ok with it? Not a rhetorical question, I’m really curious. And how many of these men would be willing to have a non-open LTR with one woman? Because if these guys lose some respect for you when you put out pn the third date, and very few of them are into commitment anyway, then your advice is not very good.

  15. Great Post Rollo

    I got suckered into this earlier this year a couple times sadly you would think I’d know better but lack of plates at the time had me acting simpish. I’ve noticed that women in their 30’s do this “you gonna have to wait crap” the most. It seems like they know their sexual marketability is going down. So they pull this whole “If you wanna hit this you gonna have to take me out, or wait for a relationship” This is annoying, considering the fact that right now I’m not looking for LTR. I admit qualifying on my part hasn’t been the best. So since a couple instance earlier this year I’ve tighten up that aspect of my game

    A couple days ago I had a women in her 30’s who happened to pull the same stunt (surprise surprise) I told her flat out I wasn’t looking for LTR. When she mentioned that she likes relationships to start “nonsexual”. I knew it was a shit test, but I honestly didn’t feel like playing. It was a women who for her age was still decent looking, and I honestly just didn’t care jumping through her hoops.

    My question is

    This is obviously a shit test, but is it worth even waiting if you spinning other plates(or even if you aren’t)? it’s obvious these women want to control the frame, and if you choose to wait you lose anyway cause she is in control.

    However this seems to happen more and more that these women are messing with alphas and now scrambling to find a provider when they realize the sun is setting(I’m not the one bitch)

    The last few times women like that, I’ve tighten up my tie excused myself and just walked out.

  16. Solo – are you a Canuck by any chance? That sounds like the typical games Canadian women in their 30’s play. I usually walk away from them, because if you know anything about our women, it’s that they want to always control the frame, and they are not interested in boyfriends/husbands but doormats/slaves.

  17. I agree with this. I’ve often found it silly when women have really rigid rules as to when to sleep with a guy, as though attraction is something that needs to be scheduled.

    I’ve met women who refuse to sleep with men until X amount of dates or X amount of gifts, and it’s just way too contrived. A woman ought to have sex with a man she likes if the feeling should strike her instead of suppressing her desire in order to leveraging sex as a bargaining tool.

  18. Just as a late breaking addendum to this post, I thought I’d add an interesting study and Roissy follow up to it:


    it is just as easy — in fact, may even be easier — to fall in love and begin a healthy long term relationship with a woman after having sex with her on the first date as it is with a woman who has made you wait for weeks or months before having sex.

    If Ms. Walsh has still got her panties in a knot, I’d be interested to read her response to this.

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  20. LOL @ deadflowers

    i would lol at you so hard if you pulled this garbage on me. 2 one night stands, but for some reason, I’m not good enough to to get my dinky stinky the first time we hang out.

    Good god, I hope a meet a broad like you, just so I can lie to her to get into a relationship, blow inside her a few times, then tell her she’s trash.

    LOL @ how delusional you are. Relationship material my ass.

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  23. Have to say I agree. In fact I would go further – in my experience, I’ve hardly ever had sex with a girl if it I didn’t get it by date three, no matter how patient I subsquently was. And the one occasion I remember when it did take about 5-6 dates she was, despite being super-hot, a complete disappointment (lights out, under the covers, missionary position only). Women are either attracted to you right away or else they never are.

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  26. Boys you all sound like gorgeous men. Aside from all the ponderings, I think women love bastards cos you’re sexy and men love girls who just chill about the lot and do it if it feels right. Its not rocket science, we aren’t here for a long time – but a good time. Help me out with my predicament. My guy is movie star stunning and makes me tingle like a star. His previous life as a class A Player has menat that it is he who is holding out! Im quivering at the thought…but perturbed as I don’t think its normal behaviour for a player to renege his positiprevious behaviour of nailing anything that moved…preferring to wait until we get to know each other better his sense of humour, naked agression, huge frame and movie star face has left me in now dout that we will set the bed on fire….but is it batsh+t… and has he jus got another girlfirend, an std or he doesn’t fancy me….we are good friends already and have slept in the same bed….thanks dudes x

  27. I’m not a guy but the whole attitude of loving bastards is going to set you up for a lifetime of heartache.

  28. Hmmmm….There seems to be a false dichotomy here. The assumption I’m getting is that if sex isn’t had within 1-3 dates that there isn’t an underlying animal lustful attraction. The woman must have ulterior motives in pursuing the relationship. I disagree. Me and my girlfriend at university waited around 3-4 months before P in V sex and believe me, there was magnetic animal attraction. We enjoyed a long healthy very sexually active and fulfilling relationship for 2 years after that. There is something powerful about showing that you can both be fully human and reign in that animal lust for a time while feeling the slow burn and overwhelming desire. I found it really increased attraction taking it to the brink and then pulling back. I found it brought a lot of depth. That was my experience. It’s not necessarily an either/or scenario.

    To Emma the Emo – I hope that helps with your frustration. There is definitely more than 2 ways to look at this. It doesn’t have to be either/or.

    Btw- love the blog Rollo.

  29. Hey roll, you have pretty decent blog, but you guys are dead wrong about pushing past last minute resistance, especially if the chick has been drinking… That’s rape, and it will fuck with a woman to no end for years to come (most of them are crazy/emotional enough minus being raped). If you have to get a woman drunk for her to have sex with you, you’re doing something wrong.. If the woman isn’t pursuing YOU for sex, you’re doing something wrong. If she’s not, Man up and move on.

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  31. Hey bill,
    Take off your “this is what a feminist looks like” shirt.
    As most men know, LMR is often just for show. “guys” like you wouldn’t know that though. I’ve had straight up booty calls give LMR. Are you telling me that’s rape? Btw, many women use alcohol as an excuse to get laid because women like to think it wasn’t their idea or things just happened. The only way it’s gonna fuck with them is when they settle for a beta and they’re forever nostalgic about the alpha they couldn’t snare. It’s my face they picture when you’re banging her.

    1. Yes, I’m telling you that’s rape. It’s the face of a rapist that they picture. You’re a rapist. Make sure to keep your rapist shirt on so women don’t have to figure out the hard way.

  32. I commented on this already, but got more thoughts. If she doesn’t have sex with you soon, it might mean she isn’t that into you. But it can also mean she wants you badly, but also for commitment. All those guys she fucked on the first date were just a way to have fun and not for commitment. But often, guys are insulted when a girl wants them to buy what she gave to others for free. It’s weird how logical this is from a woman’s point of view, and how, at the same time, it’s logical for a man to avoid that.

  33. I like the article and I agree with many of its points.. but can you please proof-read it next time? There are so many grammatical errors.

  34. >> Women date quite extensively these days

    Well Neecy, maybe that is part of your problem. And it is the woman’s problem. Because I don’t see a bunch a 39 year old men writing blogposts about “where did all the good men go?”. I see those men in Asia and East Europe.

  35. If she doesn’t have sex after 3 dates then she’s not into me. But if she does, then doesn’t that qualify her as “slutty” and not marriage material?

    How would I know if she wanted to take it slow, but really was inot me? Does such a thing exist any more?

  36. Some women don’t want to have sex with you “right now” because they don’t want to be seen as worthless sluts who are no relationship material, even (especially) if they like you.
    There are many men who dont want a woman that is “easy to have” or “used up” for a relationship or marriage.

  37. Having recently discovered, and recently read the book version of “The Rational Male,” and now going through the archives to read it all, I am doubtless commenting on things that have been said elsewhere that I haven’t read.

    But I think most of the responses take this blog’s points much too extreme. My wife and I, before getting married, were both virgins, both committed to waiting until marriage, so the question of waiting for it wasn’t in the mix in the most literal means.

    The real crux of this blog is the question of desire, and whether it is there or not. And even in my “wait until marriage” community, it was the operating. I didn’t kiss until I’d proposed, and while I know we would never have gone all the way before marriage, it was she, not I, that led us from that kissing to necking, and going farther than I intended beforehand. I now see that the desire side was operative on her end.

    So translate Rollo’s comments into your own cultural millieu.

  38. Interesting read. I think that it is important to judge the female that wants to wait a bit by her overall receptivity, body language, etc.

    I’ve had the following happen a few times. The woman appears very into me and is more than happy to kiss passionately on the first date. By the second date we are all over each other but she seems a bit hesitant to get fully nude, etc. However, she is being very passionate, grinding her crotch against me, sweaty and red in the face, breathing deeply….she wants it but just wants to wait a bit more. By the 3rd to 5th date, we are typically naked and she may not be ready to do everything, but we end up getting each other off. She continues on like this, and I know she is dying for sex, she finally gives in on like week 2 of us knowing each other.

    This is how nearly all women that actually were not sluts acted when I was 18 to 25 years old. That was around a decade ago and women have changed. Plus, now I date older women (in their 30s like me) and they tend to put out much quicker. What I have described is pretty natural for a relatively sexually inexperienced woman. I didn’t mind it, in fact waiting and having us both yearning for each other for a few sessions made it extra hot in some ways.

  39. Agreed wholeheartedly.

    A woman who “makes you wait” is sublimating her desire to fuck you (if she actually wants to fuck you in the first place, that is) to tease resources out of you in the form of dinners, dates, entertainment, validation, etc.

    A woman who feels that chemistry and wants to connect will still care about the resources but they’ll be secondary.

    Also, in my experience, waiting a long while for sex doesn’t make it any better. You’d think it would because you’re emotionally investing in the prospect of finally getting it on. But it actually has the opposite effect. It creates an unrealistic expectation that it’s going to be mind-blowing AND it gives you time to cool off.

    Sexual chemistry has a short shelf life that isn’t extended by interminable, awkward dinners!

  40. Why would you “Hoe a Road”? It’s “Tough Row to Hoe” as in hoeing a row to plant vegetables. C’mon stop mixing your metaphors.

  41. This is wisdom that I even see guys with “Game” screw up. I learned this fundamental rule as a sales rep to corporations. I look for the client engaging in what I call “buying behaviors” and my whole approach initially is to stimulate buying behaviors, not “selling”. With women, any PUA technique or a zillion other resources will tell you about the body language and behavior involved. If you are meeting up with the women for the first time after meeting her in another setting where fucking was impossible, simply look at the logistics of what she agreed to. When? Does she have anything to do afterwards? How did she dress? Was she on time? Does she seem nervous? Did she let you pick her up at her place (she might as well throw her dress up over head if she does this)? I’m actually not PUA nor have I taken any courses, I just watch how people behave very carefully. That doesn’t mean I get women falling at my feet, far from it, but my “game” is to focus on those who do or who act like it is likely.

    That doesn’t mean the deal is closed, you have to close to get to yes. But some guys don’t realize that if they are prone to fucking you, they will not until you close. As well, if they will go home with you, they may just as well fuck you in the men’s room of the bar you are in. I’ve counseled so many Betas in the friend zone who are never going to get laid about this. I even tried with a Beta “friend” of a girl I was fucking. He was her roommate and was locked into non-stop provisioning while i cruised in and out, fucking her and I felt bad for the guy. He thought somehow that he was concealing his agenda from me and that I would be jealous, and that she was going to “see through me” eventually and that his good guy shit was going to pay off.

    I even told him that the woman and I would laugh about him to try and at least get him angry so some testosterone would flow, but this didn’t motivate him. Never a more perfect example of how Betas do it to themselves. Fyi, I’m older now, 50, and this woman was 28. My SMP is greatly reduced and some high status women try to use my interest in them to get me to Beta provision – and I just refuse. It’s a small pct of women who are attractive to me who are also DTF me – so what? I’m a realist and don’t let that make me see what isn’t there. A women who wants to fuck will let you know, and if they don’t, NEXT.

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  43. “The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.”

    I don’t want to turn this into a NAWALT argument. I’ve known people of both sexes who are demisexual, in that they need to have some sort of loving relationship with a potential partner before feeling ready to have any sort of physical intimacy. I was in a “just friends” relationship with my FwB for a little over a year before he made a gentle move, and one of my commenters (Al C.) has stated that he’s never been into casual sex…he wants rapport before he could ever open himself up to a woman. Now, without going into too much detail, I do know both Al and I lived through childhood sexual abuse (mine from age 10-17, his I believe was a very traumatic one-time thing).

    I’m sure you get lots of post requests, but perhaps you could do one about women (and include the fact that men experience sexual abuse too) who are *not* giving shit tests or playing idiotic games by asking to get to know you before having sex? I didn’t have consensual piv sex till I was 22…from the time I left my parents house at 17 till my friend slowly started helping me relearn that sex could be good at 21, I’d mentally convinced myself I had no libido. Of course, I did, but I squashed it so I could protect myself from the college guys who were constantly asking me out.

    I don’t know if you’ve already touched on this topic, but there are a minority of women who crave comfort with their partner and give sex like a slut…but only to the one they’re comfortable with. I’m 30 next month, and my only consensual partner all these years is still my 45 yr old FwB. We’ve done so many types of sex, and we both initiate every week, I’ve never turned him down…but that’s because I am comfortable with him as a lover.

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  45. LOL- Way old post to be pinging now, but just had to pop in a comment about: The Rules!

    That goofy book from 1995 that put “making yourself unavailable” and “not having sex until after 3 dates” front and center.

    Back in the day there was a truism among the then-fledgling Seductionist community that when you met a Rules Girl you spent 3 dates (strategicly chosen to minimize resource usage) building attraction and lust- then had her over for a “Closing Date” at your place to “watch a movie” or “make dinner.”

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  47. does this still apply to girls who are virgins? im still in high school so most of the girls are vrigins and i kinda have a sick fascination with being the guy that takes a number of virgnities, so my question really is: Is it ok to give it a bit more time and allow her to build comfort to the point so i can fuck her or do i need to press the issue?

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  49. Recent story that’s on point here.. Met a woman my age on match two weeks ago (both of us middle aged). She’s beautiful, mature, has her shit together, and importantly, in my book, very classy. Set up a date.. Turns out to be 30 degrees that night with freezing rain. Normally chicks insist to meet up on a blind first date (so they can bail, so you don’t know where they live, etc.) But at the risk of her flaking, I called her and said, “I don’t want you on the road in this mess, I’d like to pick you up”. She agreed.

    My ex was fucking with me about our kids via text while I was on my way to get her. Her timing is always impeccable. I’m usually very controlled emotionally, and let things roll off my back, but she pissed me off so bad, I was screaming “fucking cunt!” repeatedly, at no one, as I neared the girl’s driveway. An interesting thing happened. Where I would normally be nervous, reserved, and ready to put on a show (i.e. game face), instead, I was laughing like a lunatic as I pulled in to pick her up, thinking MGTOW thoughts, like.. I DON’T GIVE A FUCK ha ha ha ha.

    Had a nice dinner.. chick was indeed very classy, very sweet, very sexy, and respectable. I liked her. a lot. But I couldn’t think. Next thing I know, I’m telling this girl stories from high school and college about my years playing in heavy metal bands (yes Rollo, you and I have strikingly similar stories), and basically just acting like I did with chicks back in those days.. completely unreserved. Want me or don’t, babe.. here I am in the raw.. Mike Dimone style.

    Driving her home, I’m grinning, thinking to myself.. nice dude, that was the most pathetic display of self control (game) ever.. ha ha. Next thing I know, she’s grabbed my hand, I look over she’s giving me OVERT IOIs, and straight up says, “I really like you, you make me smile”. So in her driveway, I’m like, fuck it.. I put it in park, say “I like you too”, and lean in. Good stuff, we kiss a few times, there was no opp to follow up here because her sons were home. I suggest we get together again soon. She says “how about tomorrow?”. Ok cool, so I say let’s see a movie tomorrow evening. This time, we met up at the theater. Movie was cool.. interest level still there..

    Why am I babbling about all this? Oh, because understand, this woman is very intelligent, intriguing, successful, down to earth, probably an HB7.5, so not a total dude magnet. I still, at this point, expected I’d be needing to behave myself like a good gentleman for at least another week, 4-5 dates before expecting anything, especially given that we had only made physical acquaintance the day before (unlike when you meet a girl face-to-face and set up a future date, and things proceed from there, the online thing is a little different).

    After the movie, we both jump in my truck and head for a restaurant across the street. As I’m fresh on the dating scene, and really just kinda practicing and refining my PUA skills at this point, I’m thinking to myself, “what the fuck.. I DONT CARE”. So as we’re getting out of the car, I sheepishly go, “you know, I waaaas thinking about just getting take-out and heading over to my place”. She instantly says, “let’s do THAT, I’m sure I can trust you to be a gentleman (ASD)”.

    So, ya’ll are thinking.. she’s just easy, or has a motive. Well, yes and no. Yes, in that they all are when they are interested. No, in that it was obvious.. she liked me because I intrigued her, and I was interesting, and my eyes and handsome face are serious panty-droppers.. or so I’ve been told. And I did manage to use those tools very well, much better than the old days, now that I have specific strategies.. Her net worth is about 5x that of mine, so providership.. not the issue.

    So, we’re enjoying intimate conversation at my place over dinner, and it’s pretty apparent she’s not driving home, but still, I intend to be a gentleman. Well, the story actually get’s a lot more interesting from there.. my ex actually shows up at 12:30 AM, bangs like a fucking banshee on my door, screaming about some crisis she invented about our son needing the keys to his car (at 12:30?? wtf), and starts raging that “this is still her house, her names on the deed”, etc.. so my date can hear her. bitch is fucking engaged to some other chump already. lol. can you believe the fuckin audacity? Hey Rollo, how you like them apples? I put in 19 years with a BPD.

    So, I deduce that what she wants are the spare keys to my son’s jeep. So, I calmly say “hold on”, shut the door leaving her on the porch, get the keys, come back, and very calmly (in a deep manly voice) say, “Here.. you keep this set.. now go” and calmly shut the door.

    Anyway, long story even longer.. My date stuck around.. we tripped on what just happened with the ex.. Everything was as it was supposed to be. Totally un-negotiated and spontaneous. 2nd date.. no wait.. not too early.. not too late.. it was great..

    The episode with the ex added just the right amount of DHV, or Social-proof, or indignation, or whatever else it is that causes chicks to become catty, or possessive. After that it was damn near a sure thing. I swear my life is a fuckin movie.

    But so the point is, I think, if you take the right steps to put yourself in the right place, despite your reservations and presumptions, you will find out if the raw desire/arousal factor is there or not. Like, if the girl had still played hard to get through the evening, I’d be a fool not to think she was playing me. But I simply put us in a safe and comfortable spot, and the truth was revealed. She was DTF, AND she actually likes me and who I am (been a long time). Still seeing her. Thanks for listening..

  50. …aaaaaaaaand she flaked. HA HA HA.. AWALT. I think I just hit the right part of her cycle.. This aspect is very underrated, I think.

    Thanks Rollo, I went with, and against, some of the methodologies on this site. The results almost PERFECTLY proved what works and what doesn’t.. The trap is letting her make you believe she’s different somehow, and you can let your guard down. She’s not, and you can’t. Am I embarrassed.. Hell no! Am I depressed.. Uh, no. I’m emboldened, relieved, free, and wiser. Live and learn and Party on.

  51. Let’s reverse the feminine social agenda and see how hilarious Neecy’s post looks if a man were to say it. Kind of eye-opening how important and special their ginas are.


    Are you advocating or suggesting men who chose not to screw women on 1-3 dates or within a shorter time frame where he doesn’t know her very well are men who are not worth waiting for? That a man that prefers to wait to get to know a girl he has the hots for better before sleeping with her is not a man worth waiting for?

    Are these men playing games to you or could it possibly be that some men simply don’t believe in IMMEDIATLEY opening their legs for every stranger to Terry, Delilah and Harriet that gives him the tingles within a 72 hour time frame?

    1-3 dates these days can range from 1-7 days.

    Also, is this advice you would give to your son? That he should not wait to sleep with a woman until he has proven she has more than an interest in him than sex? How the heck can a man determine a girls intentions within 1-3 dates? Why should a man give his most precious thing (his body) to a bunch of random women simply b/c they give him the tingles?

    Men date quite extensively these days. If in fact what you are suggesting is that men shouldn’t make a girl wait for long after being on a few dates, then I guess men would be sleeping with a bunch of women simply to prove he isn’t trying to make her wait? HUH And doesn’t your advice lend to the riding the gina carousel that so many WOMEN complain about with men in their early years?

    I mean really – what kind of message is this? That men should just sleep around with EVERY GIRL that gives him the tingles? Oh and what about all the complaints from women about how they can Rarely find men to marry b/c they don’t want to settle down with men who ride the gina carousel. You are sending mixed messages here.

    One hand you are saying women should not wait for men who hold off on sex, yet if every man did this, this would mean he was or is riding a gina carousel since there will be plenty of women in his lifetime that give him the tingles and gets the cock juices flowing. Would I marry and pro create with a man who slept with me after 3 dates? Would you not wonder how many other women he slept with after 1-3 dates?

    Frankly, I think its disgusting to make men who chose not to act on every sexual desire to sleep with a woman as out to be game players not worth a woman’s time. I guess I will be alone the rest of my life if most women feel like this. What a sad world we live in these days. Where men who don’t sleep around are seen as not worth waiting for.

    QUALITY means nothing anymore….”

    Funny how utterly silly this post sounds now. Women, reexamine how you have been conditioned to think of sex as some exclusive tool that you wield for good. Sex is just sex, it’s fun, usually nobody gets hurt, and it’s not a sin. So what’s the big freakin deal?

  52. “It’s not that I don’t want you….Far from it….It’s that I really do like you and I don’t want to move too fast.”

    These EXACT words were told to me just the other day by a girl I have been talking to. She’s in her early 30’s and she’s a divorcee with no kids. I really do enjoy her company and she’s very pretty. She was raised by her grandparents because her father left her mother early on, and her mother wasn’t really there for her, so I think her grandparents instilled more traditional beliefs. She has some great characteristics; sweet, friendly, funny, kind, etc. Not a NAWALT, but definitely a positive person.

    I’m a 33 year old, unmarried white male, no kids, who’s doing fairly well with his life (independent, own job). I don’t consider myself Alpha although I am working to progress more in that direction, but I don’t consider myself a hardcore Beta either. I’ve had relative success with women (although I’m not a player by any means).

    In any case, I have gone on 5 dates with the aforementioned lady (I know this is not best practice, but I’m just giving context). We went to a dinner date on date one, a cheap movie on date two, then she bought two tickets to the theatre and invited me for date three, she swung by my crib once when she was close to my house for date four, and we went to lunch with some friends the other day. After date two, we kissed and made out and every meeting we have definitely made out pretty passionately and gotten kind of hot and bothered at every encounter. Still, we haven’t gone past first base.

    I literally feel like to some extent I have regressed or gone back in time, back to junior high where I would make out with girls and not take it any further and then “finish the job” alone in my room reading hentai. Since our last encounter where she told me that she really didn’t want to move too fast, she has texted me twice, “Good morning. Just checking on you, are you ok?”. I haven’t responded; I think I need some time to think about things and put things into perspective. I don’t want to “throw the baby out with the bathwater”, as you mentioned above, but on the other hand I would like her to be less logical and restrained about the attraction. Again though, she IS a divorcee with trust issues (her ex-husband had a baby with a mistress during their marriage) and I do think she really IS getting turned out in the make-out sessions

    Am I delusional to think that she might really be worried about losing me after sex? And can I really blame her? I know myself well enough to know that often after having sex with girls, my interest in them plummets, to the point that they often become meaningless. And I also don’t like sluts who put out too soon either. And now I’m complaining about a girl who waits before putting out (isn’t that what I want at the end of the day, and isn’t that preferable to a skank who bangs on the first night?) I don’t know. I’m confused.

    Asking for a little help here, Rollo. Your blog is basically my bible, and your book is on my nightstand.


    1. @Captain J – I think when dating a potential LTR, waiting a few dates or weeks with the sex progressing is okay but it doesn’t sound to me like that’s what she’s doing. I mean, you say “first base” – so you are just kissing? While a girl might wait to give up the vaj, she should certainly be playing with your dick by now. And by date 5-6? You are either fucking her and sex has become a big part of the relationship or something isn’t kosher.

      She seems right on the timeline for consolidating on a Beta provider like you – her first hubby sounds like an alpha that she cock-rode into a bad marriage. Also, keep in mind, until you meet the ex and get the story from him, you have no idea who did what in that marriage. Have you ever once met a woman who said, “Yeah, I fucked up my marriage by being a complete cunt.”? No, of course not so don’t trust her accounting of her own history. She could also easily be an Alpha widow and looking to “not make the same mistakes” – fuck her then run for the hills in that case, lol.

      She is in fact, telling you as loudly as she can that her interest in you is not primarily sexual/based on attraction. That’s axiomatic in her behavior towards you. She’s also absolutely willing to use sex as a tool of power in the relationship right from the outset, a very bad sign. You get that, right? But you also may have brought this on with your own Betatude.

      A few ideas:

      1. Text her back – “I need to see you. Come to my place later/now’ don’t say anything else. When she arrives come on very strongly and do what I suggest in point 2.

      2. Or if you don’t want to escalate now, on your next date, the first moment you are alone with her you should get sexual and escalate to the point of her resisting and simply tell her, “I’m not in junior high, either we are going to be together or not. 5-6 dates is as respectful as I get.” You must then fuck her bareback, rough and the way you want it – and don’t even try to make her come. Trust me, you need to reverse the polarity by making this much more about you and what you want than her, and this is a fast way to do it. In fact, blow a load, zip up and go back to what you were doing before she came along. She’ll either play along or go crazy – you had better find out now whether the idea of making you happy and satisfied is interesting to her. Otherwise you’ll be begging for sex forever in this relationship.

      3. Ignore her and hope the dread has her suggest she come by and fuck you.

      I had a gf try this on me once when I was 38. The second date, we were making out and she stops me from escalating, but wants to keep making out. I stopped her and said, “I’m not in junior high school. I respect you and of course don’t want you to do anything you don’t want to do. But what I won’t do is get all blueballed. You aren’t “ready”? Fine, but don’t make out with me until you are ready.”

      It still took a while and she was a total freak so it was not to be, but I had to take some of the power back from her and did so. I think I told the story about her here once already, she was the woman who wanted me to rape her? She told me she couldn’t come with a guy by fucking but the first time I got in her, she came in like 10 seconds? Then got angry and started punching me because I made her come? Yeah, that kind of crazy, but I digress.

      Last. You are getting Oneitis. You will never be happy in a relationship if you have Oneitis – and she will never respect you if you have Oneitis. She’s acting up – who gives a shit? There are more fish in the sea and one is just as good as another. Fyi, if you portray that attitude, she’ll likely be deepthroating you in the car before dinner on your next date…Especially if you text some other girl who actually wants to fuck you and fuck her before you respond to the “Born Again Virgin”. She’s being a manipulative little bitch and you can’t even see it.

      We men, we are all fucked. It’s like pussy makes us blind or something. Women are so central to our lives – it starts with our mothers and goes downhill from there. Sigh…

  53. @CaptainJ – A few more more thoughts. I’ve seen mature women do the delaying sex thing when they are fucking another guy. This somehow computes as okay to a certain kind of passive-aggressive “good girl” type, she may very well be plate spinning herself. It would also fit in with her fucking the ex and being an alpha widow.

    Another possibility is that she has a serious STD like Herpes or even HIV and doesn’t know how to tell you. I had a girlfriend who had Herpes who was really weird about escalating to sex and finally she broke down crying telling me. Fyi, research what she has if this is so – medication can easily control some of these things and if it isn’t visible, with certain types, it isn’t contagious. So don’t freak out – I didn’t and I turned this crazy girl into an ass-sex fiend, lol, without catching a thing from her. Nothing like breaking in the ass of a WASPy chick, it somehow seems appropriate that blonde, privileged women have their asses despoiled by a swarthy, salivating pervert like me…But I digress.

    You need to angry at this woman. She’s fucking with you, seriously.

  54. @ Glenn & Rollo: thank you both SO MUCH for your help and advice, which I truly found quite brilliant. I really appreciate both of you taking the time to give me some advice and pointers, and good advice at that.

    Unfortunately, knowing the right thing to do, and actually doing it, are sometimes separate and distinct things, and of course, I fucked up. In hindsight, I wished I had heeded your advice, but my beta-ness took over, blinded by the possibility of milfy latina vajayjay, and already painfully starved from intercourse and affection of any sort.

    So what did I do? Against both of your advice, I texted her. Not an “I need to see you now” text. More like a “Hey, how you doing?” text that screamed apology. What read like “I’ve been really busy, hope to hang out when things die down a bit,” could have actually been read: “I thought I’d try to hold out in contacting you, but it was a total bluff, and now you consider me even more of a beta-bitch than before”.

    Not that this will come as much of a surprise, but she hasn’t texted me back. Surprising, huh. That was on Friday…today is Sunday. I hope to hear from her, but I’m not holding my breath. To “get her back” I’m even contemplating sending her flowers at work, even though I know that that would be completely retarded. The damage has been done. It’s really amazing how quickly things turnaround with women, they can go from “hot” to “absolute zero celsius” in a matter of days, over big things and over small things. It makes the prospect of marriage even scarier to me than what it already is – what if I marry some chick, and she turns into a total cunt over some meaningless bullshit? – and as a 33 year old who has never been married, I’m starting to get a lot of “You need to get hitched” advice from all angles.

    The good news is that in the time she hasn’t responded, I’ve been talking to this bank teller who pretty clearly wants the D. She was texting me while I was talking to the milf, but out of “respect for the milf”, I kept things exclusive. Beyond retarded.

    I guess we’ll see what transpires. In my heart, right now at least, I’m hoping she does call me back, because I feel we would be throwing away something “special.” I know, it’s hopelessly beta, but I think it’s more valuable if I share what I actually feel rather than remark on how I should feel. Maybe the rational side of me will see the manipulation for what it is, and when it does, I will share that too.

    In the meantime, thanks again….truly. I appreciate your help and time.

    Best, Captain J.

  55. Also….fuck I wish I had read Iron Rule #9 more attentively before sending her that reconciliation text…damn.

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  57. Neecy. The primary rule of sexual strategy is that for one genders sexual strategy to work the other must forfeit thier own. I took this as getting the best out of the opposite sex. Of course he doesn’t teach that to his daughter, he will teach her to get the best out of men she possibly can. As this is a blog meant to help men, he describes how men will get the best out of women they can. If a woman is not having sex with you within three dates, she will likely use sex as a bargaining tool instead of performing sex as an act of desire.

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  60. the woman you’re describing who has no standards in how she’s courted and who would hide in a closet to have sex with you is low status. the real difference between a girl who is cautious with who she shares herself with, and a girl who gives in to urges easily (non-discriminating) is simply self-respect. who would you rather?

  61. How completely disempowering. If sexuality is a spontaneous chemical reaction that you have no control over, indeed you are doomed. Not once does the “rational male” in this article speak about accountability, virtue, or the future. Yikes. Maybe this site could be called the impatientpenis.com.

  62. “How completely disempowering. If sexuality is a spontaneous chemical reaction that you have no control over, indeed you are doomed. Not once does the “rational male” in this article speak about accountability, virtue, or the future. Yikes. Maybe this site could be called the impatientpenis.com.”

    You are a nice person. It is clear from your use of wise words like accountability, virtue and future. Continue “empowering” yourself. But your girlfriend will still yikes you in good time. No one is forcing you to see that sexual desire is a chemical state. You do not argue against reality with a belief. Reality continues to be, irrespective of your beliefs. You believe desire is something you just will to be.

    The number of women with “virtue and accountability” but are 60 yrs old? No desire from Mr. Daniel. 22 yr old beautiful “slut?” Very hard wood from Mr Daniel.

  63. Some good stuff here, but I have to say that the #1 reason I didn’t have sex right away with a guy I was really into was BECAUSE I was really into him. And for that reason, I didn’t want him to think I’m “some tart who can’t keep her legs closed”. Plus I disagree about sex not being worth the wait. When you establish emotional intimacy before being sexually intimate, when you finally get down, the sex is much better because trust has already been established. You can be totally in the moment, you’re not wondering if he approves of your body and worrying about what your face looks like when you come.

  64. Good article…having to read it again later because lots of important points there.
    Still astounds me how many ladies like “to be comfortable” in order to fuck….and now i know why….she getting penis from other sources so why bang me?
    Just wish we were all a bit sluttier 🙂

  65. What many feminists really fear is that men will emigrate to countries where prostitution is legal. Half of the world’s countries either have legalized it or simply tolerate it. One of them is English-speaking New Zealand. Closer to home you have Mexico, most of Central America, Colombia, Venezuela, probably Brazil, and Ecuador. You have countries in Eastern and Central Europe where it’s legal.

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  67. When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority.

    One’s highest priority during the beginning of a date/potential relationship should always be oneself. This goes for men and women alike. If a guy does something that raises a red flag during the first few dates (maybe he shows himself to be a racist, or is incredibly rude to cashiers/waiters, or is extremely religious) I can next him. However, I can’t next myself if I forgo my own likes/dislikes simply to pedestalize a dude I’ve only known for less than a day. Always take care of yourself first.

    The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.

    Or…you’d only be her first or second sex partner and she doesn’t want to share the amazingly special intimacy of sex with someone she’s known for under a week. Just because some women give it up to every male that’s attractive and willing to sling his dick in her general direction doesn’t mean the woman after her will be the same. Some of us view sex as the height of vulnerability and passion between 2 lovers, not just an activity to muddle through with a random penis for 30 minutes.

    First and foremost, sex, by it’s nature is uncomfortable. Sex that is motivated by mutual, genuine desire is a tense affair, fueled by testosterone, anxiety and urgency.

    I’m glad that I, and my boyfriend of 9 years, never tried to pressure each other into sex before we had taken a few months to really know one another. Uncomfortable sex? No thank you. I have no desire for sex that would be described as such. For what it’s worth, we do many sexual activities now that should only be done between people who truly have trust their partners, and we have fun doing so precisely *because* neither of us will push the other to anything resembling actual discomfort.

    When two people get together for a first dance (a precursor to copulation), it’s rarely if ever an intimate slow dance. It’s salsa, it’s grinding, it’s pumping, it’s heat and it’s sweat. What it’s not is comforting and familiar. It’s not a nice warm bathrobe fresh out of the dryer.

    While I can appreciate that some…hell, maybe even most…men and women want unfamiliar and uncomfortable sex, that’s only up to them. Mysticism and psychics aren’t real. Nobody can honestly say they speak for everyone who just happens to share a type of genitals with them.

    Don’t take this the wrong way, but sex is threatening. It needs to be, and you need to be considered a sexualized player in her personal sphere. Overtly agreeing to wait for her to become sexual is anti-seductive.

    Take it for the single opinion it is, but the very idea of having “threatening” sex leaves me drier than the Sahara. Sex is about creating a temporary space where you and your partner are free to embrace their kinks and vulnerabilities without shame, pressure, remorse, fear, anxiety or any of the other shit we all have to deal with in daily life. Sex is a time of love and fun and safety…a pleasurable sanctuary secreted away from the rest of the world. If I felt threatened for even a moment, there’s no fucking way I’d let my boyfriend choke me, throw me on the bed, push me up against the wall, bite me, or do anal. Likewise, if I ever made him feel threatened, I sincerely doubt he’d let me tie him up, scratch him, or ride his ass. That’s why safewords were invented; so that if a threat did accidentally occur, it could be stopped right away. Other people, like the blog owner here, are absolutely free to see things differently, of course.

    It confirms for her that you aren’t a sexualized player to her; an Alpha wouldn’t wait for sex and she knows this.

    I suppose that’s why I am turned off by alphas. Anyone who doesn’t want to wait for me to be comfortable sharing sex with them is an automatic next. I’ve no time for impatient brutes when there are plenty of legitimately nice men around who would be willing to take it slow. Date other, more “empowered” women on the side if you really need to get your rocks off that often…I certainly don’t begrudge any man or woman that if it’s what they truly want to do. Just realize that some men and women are not the type to partake in a slam-bam-thank-you-ma’am.

    Worse still, it devalues her SMV as being worth less than of your utmost urgency.

    If a woman thinks this way, I’d say she read *way* too many shitty harlequin romances. Sounds like “Fifty Shades” bullshit.

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