The ‘Real’ Nice

fake_nice_guy

I once posed this question to the SoSuave forum:

Let us say, in a strange alternate world, women would LOVE you if you were a Nice Guy. In this world, you could do all the things you wanted to do. You could be sappy. You could write her poetry and SHE WOULD LOVE IT. The more of a Nice Guy you were, the more women in general would love and appreciate you.

And in this alternate world, the jerks and players would be the ones sneered at by women. If you were a jerk in this world, no woman would like you. If you were cocky, they would dismiss you immediately.

Would you remain a Nice Guy if you were in this alternate world?

I got a variety of answers ranging from the want for clearer, but no less useful terminologies,…

First off, I object to the labels. I know they’ve been used here and in the seduction community for a long time, but I don’t really believe in the stereotypes. I’m not a ‘nice guy’ or a jerk or a bad boy. Having said that and cleared the air, let’s go back to the stereotypes:

How many guys came here to this forum as “nice guys”? They were probably perfectly happy with themselves and only decided to change so they could do better with women. So they became assholes. Just to please women. I don’t see why they wouldn’t do the opposite in this “alternate reality”. I don’t care for the stereotypes. Half the guys on this forum think a “jerk” or a “douche” is a desireable thing to be. Something’s wrong with this picture. Somehow a “jerk” has become a guy with backbone who stands up for himself. 

The definition of a “nice guy” should just be a man who respects others as well as himself. But instead, in dating circles, “nice guy” means wimp.

…to the hope for Relational Equity and an appreciation for being ‘nice’…

I don’t think it’s that simple. You can be compassionate and kind without supplicating–and the whole “nice” thing isn’t really about kindness, it’s about supplicating and expecting something in return. “Nice” is really just synonymous with needy, unattractive behaviors, as I see it-it’s not even GENUINE kindness, as when you expect nothing in return.

To me, being an alpha “bad boy” just means going after what you want. It means pushing the envelope and being aggressive in pickup. It doesn’t mean being antisocial or violent, or being a dick to people. It often happens that an aggressive guy has these tendencies, but I don’t think they contribute to his success with women unless they bring him some fame, too. I think women DO have a capacity to appreciate kind gestures, and will certainly judge a man by how he treats his family, etc. The “protector of loved ones” is an attractive archetype to women. 

The guys that lose out are the ones that do “nice” things in the hopes that a woman will grow attracted to them. They let the women control the frame in this case, and act like children trying to please their mother. This is always an attraction killer–it doesn’t matter if they’re a jerk or an alpha in every other aspect of their life. Lots of really tough dudes are complete wussies around women. 

It is truly one of the cosmic ironies of the universe that women should completely lack the capacity to truly appreciate the niceties of men – yet still perpetually claim to desire those niceties.

With the notable exceptions of natural born Alphas, I believe most men would overwhelmingly default to being compassionate, empathic souls, steeped in romantic notions of chivalry, dedication and honor. Whether this sentiment is the result of a genuine dedication to principle or inspired by a hope that women will appreciate his sacrifices to principle and reciprocate with her intimacy is really a Crisis of Motive.

That was really the gist of my question – are guys just playing nice to get laid or is “niceness” (for lack of a better term) something deep rooted that they have to necessarily repress in order to be taken seriously as a sexual competitor because women would despise him were he to be as ‘nice’ as he really has the capacity for.

Most guys make lame attempts to redefine raw, natural, Alpha masculinity to fit into accord with all these noble qualities. Tragically women and reality prove them wrong at virtually every instance, but their fallback denial is an easy one (ironically provided for them by the Feminine Imperative) – “those women who don’t appreciate your niceness are just Damaged Women®, no quality woman would value an asshole above a real Nice Guy.”

Men are simply never rewarded for displays of these higher-self aspirations with genuine appreciation of women. They certainly appreciate them on a by-need basis, and as a ‘value added‘ benefit, but the esoteric, self-actualizing concerns men believe women should prioritize as primarily attractive aspects of themselves are never what they hope women will appreciate. If anything overly ‘nice’ men are punished for it, either in the instance or progressively over time.

The only way to garner true appreciation, true valuation, truly inspired displays of affection, from women is to covertly imply the risk of losing a high-value Man. Whether the man is even truly of a higher value is irrelevant, only the perception needs to be reinforced for her. Risk of loss is all that factors. Risk of losing an investment in optimizing hypergamy is weighed against her own perceived sexual market value and the effort needed to reinvest in another, potentially higher SMV man. Risk of loss is why her imagination furiously spins the wheel in her head.

That sounds horrible, but the truth often is. Women’s lack of appreciation for the more compassionate natures of men, and their consuming regard for rewarding men that appease their hypergamy is so well proven it’s become predictable enough to develop techniques and behavioral modifications to exploit it (i.e. Game). Most guys would like nothing better than to honestly play the loving, white knight, romantic who women bemoan a lack of in the world. Yet for every sonnet composed, every provision met, every compliment delivered and every well planned candlelit dinner conversation, there’s a woman feverishly fucking her Alpha bad boy in his low rent apartment for fear of losing him to the competition.

Attraction and Arousal


Occasionally we return to a common theme of debate with self-proclaimed ‘red pill women’ in various manosphere comment threads about how women may be attracted to certain characteristics men would like to identify as being ‘nice’, but no woman is aroused sexually by these qualities. As I’ve argued in the past, attraction and arousal are two separate elements of hypergamy. Alpha Fucks is arousing, Beta Bucks is attractive.

A couch surfing Alpha will be arousing enough to bang women indiscriminately despite his impoverished condition. He has no relational equity, and so frustrates the efforts of men who believe that the definition of Alpha ought to be based on the equity they hope women will appreciate. Women will return (even if just mentally) to the callous or cavalier Alpha because he arouses her, but she will stay faithful to her well-providing husband because what he offers is attractive to her.

This is why I say, by and large, women love most men for what they represent – once they cease to represent that, once they stumble in maintaining that, hypergamy is free to run. On a personal level this may be you losing a job or how you failed a shit test, on a meta scale it may be women’s social capacity to provide for themselves.

A lot of guys get lost in these definitions. They believe a woman at her word in what she finds attractive in a man, but then conflate this list of qualities (read any woman’s online dating profile) with what a woman finds arousing. While there may be attraction without arousal, there is never arousal by way of what makes a man attractive. Your respectability, sterling character and being good with kids doesn’t make you look any better when your shirt comes off.

The New Nice

There’s an interesting social convention that’s developed as Game-awareness has become more widespread. As with all social conventions it provides a convenient rationale for women to cling to in order to alleviate uncomfortable truths, but the dilemma of the Faux-Nice Guy has picked up a lot of steam in the feminist / feminine-primary set of women. I covered this a while back in Play Nice, but since then I’ve been reading more about how this convention is dovetailing into the re-imagining of a so called Rape Culture.

As women become more aware of Game (even if just peripherally) there’s developed a convenient distrust of men’s ‘Nice’ qualities. The dynamics I put forth in The Savior Schema all become suspect for what in essence is really a tit for tat exchange of services rendered for intimacy at a later date (once his niceties have proven his worth).

The problem with this is twofold, first, the guy’s relying on Beta Game, convinced that what women say they are attracted to is what they are also aroused by, believe that faux Nice Guys are blowing their chances with the women they believe will eventually come to love them for their earnest Niceness. If all these charlatan Nice Guys are jading their pool of prospective nice-appreciating women it ruins their Game. Consequently they get agitated by women doubting any man’s sincerity and by extension their own. This then leads to Nice Guy infighting and greater, more sincere displays of a Niceness that really only ruins their Game that much more.

Second, women’s doubt of a Nice Guy’s sincerity and unsolicited ‘niceness’ is really a red herring meant to distract men employing Nice Guy Game away from the point that they simply don’t find them all that attractive (and certainly not arousing). Being nice, supportive, dutiful and possessing all the intrinsic characteristics on her list of attractive traits in the hope of proving his worth and qualifying for her intimate acceptance is really one long Appeal to a Woman’s Reason. It’s very convenient for a woman to enjoy (and often become dependent upon) the services a Nice Guy renders to her, but when that Nice Guy is discovered to have a sexual interest in her the “you weren’t really nice, you just expected something sexual in return” social convention finds its use.

Women have been aware of this Nice Guy Game, prequalification schema for generations, because it used to actually work in a time and culture where the Beta Bucks / parental investment side of women’s hypergamy was the predominant factor for determining of a man’s intimate acceptability. The problem now is that the deductive reasoning men use – find out what women want in order to become intimate, become it and solve the problem – in order to achieve a woman’s intimacy comes from an old set of books that no woman is still using. However the reliance on the responsibilities outlined in that first set of books are still useful when it comes to control the intents and actions of men.

Chivalry is an anachronism in a post-feminist society, particularly where equalism is concerned, but it’s a liability when it’s useful to the feminine imperative. It may be a man’s duty not to expect sex in exchange for his niceties and services, but when his chivalry is useful to her then it becomes his responsibility.

123 comments

  1. Rollo, thanks for a great post covering all the important points, but I’m pressed for time today so just one quick observation. Since Jerk game is so much more successful, objectively, with women, it’s interesting that women play up the ineffectiveness of Nice game so much so that “Nice guys are the real Jerks” is what women believe. Clearly, women admit being turned off by Nice, but refuse to admit being turned on by Jerk.

    But I must disagee that women aren’t DamagedWomen. Indeed, “It is truly one of the cosmic ironies of the universe that women should completely lack the capacity to truly appreciate the niceties of men – yet still perpetually claim to desire those niceties.” is a prime example of women being damaged.

  2. I’m nice to every girl that I know and this always helped me to improve my social image, I’m a real liferuler, born to rule and conquer and to party.
    I’m good because I dont see any reason to be bad or to treat others bad without they show some bad sign.

    But I’m a alpha in the smv market, I’m atletic/muscular, tall, rich ( in comparison to the average guys of mine social circle), good looking, popular and easygoing.

    Mine coolness and act of being nice it’s a feature that put me in the front of all the other alphas or betas, because they KNOW that I’m good because I’m, not because I need something in return.

    Yesterday I helped 5 girls that were alone because their friends left for fuck in the club, and I become their friends, they gave me their phones numbers and offered themselves to be mine winggirls.

    The real nice guy is the perfect version for game for medium and long term practice, and you can trust this for sure.

    It’s the perfect Machiavellian tactic of the Perfect Prince, is the act to be able to destroy and even with that choose peace, but being able to destroy if you want.

    The difference between the real nice guys are that they are really nice, they aren’t like the fucked betas who display being nice to get sex at the end.

    Be nice to others and you will be social proofed and have a lot of guys and girls that can easily co-op with you and help you.

    Unite to conquer, this is the rule, the nice guy game is the perfect game.

  3. You knocked it out of the park with this one Rollo. I was thinking of how I would have responded to this article pre-red pill. With opened eyes I see how “nice” really means weak and supplicating, while “jerk” and “asshole” is a blue-pill beta form of slut shaming. Betas try to disqualify guys who get laid just as women try to disqualify their peers for giving it up too easily and lowering the market value for tail.

    Guys don’t get laid a lot because they are mean to women, it’s because they put themselves and their desires first, always. Women who talk about wanting “nice” guys aren’t lying, they’ve been conditioned just as betas have. The thing is that they ultimately defer to biology and human nature, going for what arouses them. Weak men however have a superhuman ability to fight against nature, against all evidence to the contrary that their chivalrous disposition will pay off one day.

    I still consider myself an honorable and compassionate man, and I also hold a girl by the throat when I kiss her, while pulling on her hair. It works over and over, roses and compliments don’t.

  4. A woman can get on board easily with the idea of nice guys actually being jerks because it preserves self image. If a woman doesn’t value men who will treat her well, and even goes so far as to take advantage of their niceness then she is unwise, and indeed a bad person.

    One swift movement solves that problem. Believe nice guys are wicked schemers. It ain’t hard. Humans excel at believing what they would prefer to believe, especially women.

  5. Some guy posted this on CH very recently. Rise of the ‘rinsers’: Meet the women trawling the internet for rich men to fund their extravagant lifestyles

    Quite apropos.

  6. I’ll quote Krauser on K-selected signals

    “Almost every daygamer wants to be the Nice Guy. He’s absorbed too many Disney fairytales and has turned to daygame to get the Good Girls and not those Nightclub Sluts. He’s kidding himself. The sexual market rules are always in effect. It’s always a darwinistic fight whether on the club or on the streets, and the girls are operating according to the same mating schema. Daygame is to nightgame what tennis is to squash – useless ill-coordinated slobs are going to fail in both sports. Daygame fools you into thinking you’re not in competition with all those other cool charismatic men simply because you can’t see them at that moment in time. No. Hot young girls always have options and you’d better be either (i) her best option or (ii) a side-dish she can’t otherwise get.
    So drop your Disney fantasy. Daygame is dirty and animalistic.”

    This dynamics is clearly visible when you watch nice guys daygaming. They use the lines, the girls are happy to talk to them for a while, but they take the number out of politeness and flake. It can work if you are happy with getting a girlfriend after 5 dates, but you’ll be the high beta provider boyfriend at best.

  7. The giver should be thankful.

    If you do a favor for someone — anyone — do it without expecting anything in return. Do it simply because you want to do it and because you’ll be glad to help the person.

    This is for your own benefit. When you expect something in return for doing favors, you set yourself up for resentment and disappointment. Only do favors for people when you’ve fully accepted in your mind that doing the favor itself is your reward.

    That way you also won’t give more than you really want to and will respect your own lines in the sand, because you know there’s nothing more for you to get than what you’re giving.

  8. I’ve been watching this whole dumping on “Nice Guys” for a couple of years now on dating sites and have come to the conclusion it is just another hamsterbastion. Women realize that yes, the characteristics of a “Nice Guy” are something they should be attracted to, but as they are not they have to justify it somehow and place the blame elsewhere.

    It hasn’t been since the advent of the internet that men have had the opportunity to compare notes about female behavoir on a grand scale and effectively call women out in a united front. Women hate nothing worse than being held accountable for their actions, the whole “Nice Guys aren’t Nice” is just that gender’s latest excuse to justify their irrational behavoir and poor choices in men.

  9. Seems to me modern women can’t/won’t make a distinction between guys like Wally Cleaver and Eddie Haskell. The confusion for men is we have no problem seeing the difference.
    Sadly in world today Wally is an SMP loser and Eddie a winner until his reputation as asshole in nice guy clothing becomes well known. By the time that happens Eddie has preselection working in his favor. Wally’s beta game hurts his preselection because he is not closing.

  10. Hope this isn’t seen as too far off point, but old movies show a lot of this stuff at work. You see a lot of this nice guy and women’s hypergamy at play in “The Quiet Man.” It is really the struggle of a man to balance his nice with his alpha.

    During the middle of the movie, where he is being the nice boy, his wife asks one of his friend:

    “What kind of a man have I married?”

    To which the friend replies:

    “A better one than you know, Mary Kate.”

    Interesting truth that other guys appreciate a guys niceness, not the girl.

  11. This one’s from 1932. Nothing new here. It does lighten the mood a little though.

    “When a woman says she loves you
    ‘Bout good as she do herself
    I don’t pay her no attention
    Tell that same lie to somebody else

    I really don’t believe
    No woman in the whole round world do right
    Act like an angel in the daytime, mess by ditch at night”

  12. I think that some versions of “nice” in a guy engage a woman’s maternal instincts–and most women’s maternal instincts are hardwired separate from sexual instincts–the “sane” ones that is. I’ve known self-actualized Dominant women who don’t seem to have much of any actual sex drive but they’ll give it out as a “reward” for nice, that is *obedience*.

  13. Answering your question, yes, I would be a nicer man. Why be an asshole to women if I do not have to in order to get what I want? I am not an asshole to men, because I can get what I want from them without it. I would prefer to have a mutual respect and trust with women, the way I do with men.

    Many men act the way they do out of their own sense of solipsism. If a man or a group of men treated another man the way women treat him, there would be a fight in no time. Men think of how to deal with men, and apply that to women.

    Languages have their own way of communicating different concepts that are useful and relevant. The word that requires a paragraph to explain in another language, for example. That concept was never developed. Man language is based on honor and strength. Woman language is based of weakness and deception. Different needs, for different circumstances, developing into different perceptions.

    It would be nice if women spoke Man, but they do not. The only option is to either speak Woman or force them to speak Man. Preferably both.

    The Shadowed Knight

  14. @Rollo:

    Tragically women and reality prove them wrong at virtually every instance, but their fallback denial is an easy one (ironically provided for them by the Feminine Imperative) – “those women who don’t appreciate your niceness are just Damaged Women®, no quality woman would value an asshole above a real Nice Guy.”

    I think the real crisis guys goes through is not really a crisis of motive, but mostly a crisis of realizing they have little sexual value to women. And also the inability to realize that most women are just not attracted to them. I do think that trying to develop game is also a lame attempt to fix that. One of the reasons I do not subscribe to game cult is that after all most game proponents are indeed a big failure themselves. It would be akin to reading and making a cult of Nietzsche, when in the end, his philosophical thinking contributed to no practical improvement to him, because after all, he suicided. I think the fact that Nietzshce suicided has great toll on the validity of all his philosophy and reasoning. Perhaps he was just mentally ill, a nihilist. It would also be akin to a timid girl making a cult of, say, porn stars, and perhaps becoming one herself, on the illusion this would give her a kind of magical power over men and full control over her life and men’s attraction. I notice, for instance, you like to quote Roissy. But who is Roissy? Is he happy? Did he succeed in his relationships with women? What about “Mystery”? Is he a transsexual or what? For sure, I know quite a few “betas” who are much happier and successful than them in their relationships.

    So, although I do not subscribe to the myth of “quality women” either, I do acknowledge that there are intrasexual differences and that not all women are equal in terms of how much, say, their primitive arousal instincts override their decisions. Heck, there are women of all stripes and flavors. The problem I see with the so called “feminine imperative” is that feminism conditioned men to idealize women without realizing that they are instinctive human beings as much as men, and that as you, say, arousal can be and often is different of attraction (men are like that as well, as I see it).

    So, could it be that going from one extreme, such as idealizing all women, to putting all of them in the opposite category, and making of “game” a kind of cult and religion, could be instead a kind of “neurotic suspension” as Mark Minter pointed out in his previous comment? Could it be that the whole of manosphere is a kind of collective and disgruntled “nice guys” united, trying to make women appeal to their reason, by constantly hammering on them of the why’s they are so unfair being attracted to “hot jerks” and that if they are not, they should be, because that’s what the supreme oracle of the manosphere gods of “game” (“Mystery”, Roissy, and the such), have told them to be true?

    If I suspect is true, I am afraid that the manosphere is instead to contributing to impotency of their readership, out of increased and overwhelming levels of “neurotic suspension” and self-denial.

    Of course, it can be hard to realize that women, after all, don’t have such a high libido as men do, or even the same sexual motives, but as I see it, that the crux of the problem and it shouldn’t be made so complicated, or turn into a kind of nihilist and self-defeating. In this regard, I think the manosphere is failing miserably by not coming up even if with just a simple and genuine “game” plan, other than just mimicking routines or doing random approaches to get laid. If women are so predictable, it could be possible to come with a simple plan, one which is not neurotic and does not deride into nihilist self-denial or “neurotic suspension” impotency.

    I have outlined a simple plan in a previous comment at J4G, as an example. About the issue of “quality women”, I have actually known guys who just went through that: they were dumped by girls who they idealized and later ended up married to girls who were attracted to them instead. I actually think both are “quality women”, because they both like kids and married virgins. I do think that any woman who dates a “hot jerk” is disqualifying her as a “quality woman” to me. So the concept is also relative. A girl who dated jerks and “changed lanes” might not be a “quality woman” for you, but certainly this would be a pre-requisite of any girl I would be willing to commit to. If there are other guys who think like that, and in fact I believe all of them do, because “naturals” are a myth as well, then relative to men’s criteria of commitment there are “qualtiy women” and “not so quality women”. Even though in their humanity and essence they might be the same, you may bet that I would not be willing to marry Christina Bella or another porn star, if I was given the choice of marrying them or a timid, and submissive “comittal beta”. I go even further to conjecture that “game” is not really about generation attractive, but it’s a kind of male shit test, because if after all the girl needs to “gamed”, and he has to fake such a game, he will end up dumping her for not being the “quality woman” he was looking for (i.e., one who would be attracted to him, without him having to resort to fake game). So, it seems to me, that most PUA advocates, are also dellusioned about “quality women” and use game in an attempt to snatch and maintain a relationship with a woman who they deem to be of “high quality”, when in fact his real problem is that just like the ‘nice guy’, he has the dilemma of having to fabricate value to be attractive enough, because in his “natural” state he is not attractive enough, and has a hard time realizing that in fact she (and not any other woman for that matter) might need and desire him sexually, as much he does.

  15. Chokmah , the manosphere covers a lot of ground and the better blogs reccomend self improvement for it’s own sake rather than just pandering to whatever turns women on. If anything most simply pull down the pedestal society has put women on and expose “Love” for what it really is, a biological event driven by hormones. As far as game goes, it’s been going since Eve put on clothes.

  16. The theory posts are fascinating, but these application posts make for a nice break. IMO the two money paragraphs are:

    The only way to garner true appreciation, true valuation, truly inspired displays of affection, from women is to covertly imply the risk of losing a high-value Man. Whether the man is even truly of a higher value is irrelevant, only the perception needs to be reinforced for her. Risk of loss is all that factors. Risk of losing an investment in optimizing hypergamy is weighed against her own perceived sexual market value and the effort needed to reinvest in another, potentially higher SMV man. Risk of loss is why her imagination furiously spins the wheel in her head.

    Plate spinning (options) or at least the ability to do so if so desired, combined with (soft) dread game punctuated by random displays of caring and affection.

    women love most men for what they represent – once they cease to represent that, once they stumble in maintaining that, hypergamy is free to run. On a personal level this may be you losing a job or how you failed a shit test, on a meta scale it may be women’s social capacity to provide for themselves.

    Shit happens. Situations change. Everyone stumbles now and then, whether by their own fault or due to external factors. If you are not able to run some form of game, there are not-insignificant odds that sooner or later you will end up figuratively screwed (divorce rape) or literally un-screwed (sexless relationship).

    Study and practice game.

    Maintain options, even if you do not actively pursue them.
    Spin plates, or be able to start at a moment’s notice.

  17. “I was thinking of how I would have responded to this article pre-red pill. With opened eyes I see how “nice” really means weak and supplicating, while “jerk” and “asshole” is a blue-pill beta form of slut shaming. Betas try to disqualify guys who get laid just as women try to disqualify their peers for giving it up too easily and lowering the market value for tail.”

    It’s not that beta men are intentionally supplicating, it’s that they don’t know any better. They have a false understanding of the world and often times no insight into their own unattractive characteristics.

  18. I was spinning a plate for a good six months, catching up every week or two for “bedroom acrobatics”, always based on whether I was free or not. She did all the chasing. She would text me all the time with youtube clips, comments about her life, stories about her day that I couldn’t care less about. Pre-Red Pill, I would have watched every one of those clips and made sure I replied to every message she sent me, to show her that “I cared”. God forbid that I would ever ignore a text message, that would after all make me a jerk. Instead, I had the wisdom to ignore all these messages and only respond when she was trying to organise a session.

    The other day, she claimed she couldn’t see me anymore, because she had fallen for me and it was clear to her I didn’t feel the same way about her (she has since started texting me again). After riding me senseless all night and is about to leave my place, she thanked me, as “no man has ever treated me as nicely as you”. I nearly fell out of my bed when she dropped that on me.

    I had read it here before, but now I truly understand and believe it, that we do right by women when we respect ourselves and put ourselves first. That to them is truly being nice.

  19. Going practical.
    If I cannot use logic nor follow my instincts because both will fail – what remains ?
    I see only Game – not give a f*ck about fidelity which looks like BS, spin plates and not worry too much about women’s feelings.
    It almost sums up to:
    Either you kick or you are kicked.

    What do I miss ?

  20. Women NEED nice guys, they desperately need them. In order to enter into marriade and father children with her, sacrifice you time/work for her well-being, you have to be ultimately “nice”… Otherwise you just will not do it!! Therefore we have this trait so widespread among men. It is necessary for women…

    Every married man is ultimately “nice guy”. Marriage is sacrifice and in order to do that you have to believe in some goodness, realtionship equity, soul mates, etc.

    In that respect, the bad boys are wise – they are giving women their body and not their soul. They do not give a shit about women and treat women how they shoul be treated – like disposable fuck toys, they are. Women love them…´cos they KNOW them. Of course there come the time when she need the slave – and this is the Great chance for some nice guy to work on her much overpriced ass till his very death…an try to “game” her for all his miserable life, so that this former replacable sperm receptable for some bad boy, stay with him and appreciates him…

    DO NOT DO that my friends 😉

  21. In light of this post I find myself asking again what exactly it is that women uniquely provide to men other than sex? Rollo has suggest previously that there is a beneficial aspect to a woman’s opportunistic style of love. What are the benefits beyond sexual access? Beneficial to whom? What I see is that a woman’s love is the gift that never stops taking until there is nothing left to take.

    Of course there’s a NAWALT within but when most women operate this way does that make any difference as a practical matter?

    Much of the manosphere pushes the idea of self improvement, which is always advisable, and addressing reality as it is rather than as it should be. Fine. But is changing the fundamental nature of one’s self really the best advice? How is game not to be argued as a form of caving to the demands of the FI? How is this giving women what they want no less a loss of one’s integrity than simply paying cash for sex?

    I am wondering if gaming sluts is really the best purpose we can put this self improve toward. Sluts hardly seem worth the efforts to learn game in the first place, and today most women have Ns high enough to be considered sluts.

  22. “…a woman feverishly fucking her Alpha bad boy in his low rent apartment for fear of losing him to the competition….”

    If any man were to honestly evaluate his relations with women, he’d see that he’s considered to be her property, and any hot sex she offers is a desperate attempt to reclaim ownership. I have experienced this myself more than once, and platonic women friends all reported a night of hot sex no more than a week before the divorce erupted. Thus, sex from a woman is not an honest expression of affection or desire. It is an attempt to control.

  23. @ badpainter

    Of course, when you take away the concept of soul myths, relationship equity, loyalty…we have to ask ourselves, what is the purpose/incentive to built any kind of long term realtionship with women. This is the inevitable question. We can blabb about the new, helathy perspective. However, it is clear that if she is disloyal, opportunistic creature, you simply can not win, irrespective of the amount of game you are going to pull. Today you are ok, but tomorrow you can have a car accident, be fired from work, bad luck, etc….and you are fucked and robbed of your children/property. This is the unspoken truth. This is the scary thing for loyal nice gyus, truly nice guys…this consumes their souls. You can effectively spin plates armed with this knowledge, but would you enter into marriage??? How you can place your balls on this marriage table?

    Rollo is married man, so he does not have any other options now, unless he hurts his child/breaks his marriage vows. I presume, he is trying to do his best in his marriage as every married brother. But for young or single guys – the question is legit. It is up to every single guy to decide how he will use those knowledge.

    Manosphere provides the truth – this is the biggest gift. It opens the eyes.. The rest is up to us. Seek the answer in yourself…

  24. A bit like indifference versus provisioning last week; it is too easy for humans in general to get blinkered by absolute ‘truths’ like ‘all women prefer jerk game over nice guy game.’ It’s BS man.

    If we’re honest with ourselves, we are all nice guy providers at some point, even if we can’t admit it to other men, or even want to acknowledge it ourselves.

    The argument that hypergamy rules everything again is somewhat valid, but to a point. If a woman is bedded in such a manner that ultimately satiates her needs and by a man who is in control of the situation, relationship and is successful, is she really going to end up in that bedsit with the bad-boy dropout? No, I don’t think so, as long as the frame and power ratio is maintained.

    In my experience and from what I have read herein and on other sites, womens’ needs are not only varied but they also fluctuate frequently. Those relying on one type of game/outlook/tactic toward any challenge in particular is limiting themselves severely. Basically if you’re going to put on any kind of act, you may as well mix it up a bit in order to maintain a few regular plates. If you wanna play the rolling stone game, good luck to you. May be you are just pure alpha, dawg, born and bred.

    As Aurum Magno alluded to, you don’t have to be a jerk to be successful with women. In fact, ‘acting jerk’ is tantamount to ‘acting nice’, in order to get the score. You’re basically lying to yourself and them. Though I would agree that acting ‘nice’ is still more contrived and conniving…. eughgh…. it make me feel physically ill now when I see guys sucking up to women! So f*cking transparent.

    The truth is that 99% of women see straight through the acting as well, whether ‘jerk’ or ‘nice’, and that’s why most go for the jerk, because the sickly sweet nice guy act is so f*cking nauseating.

    Aurum Magno: “The difference between the real nice guys are that they are really nice, they aren’t like the fucked betas who display being nice to get sex at the end.”

    If you have the presence of mind to not get screwed (i.e. know the importance of negging, soft dread, and blah blah blah), then this philosophy is probably better than any ‘jerk game’ any one can come up with.

    Yes, hypergamy drives sexual dynamics. But provision drives hypergamy. How many strings you have to your bow ultimately dictates your success.

  25. Risk of loss is what keeps beta men attracted to women. Having only one woman to go to for any kind of sexual contact or shred of intimacy keeps the desperation and dependency strong.

    Beta men have so much in common with women and their attraction to apex alphas, it isn’t even funny. And all those women who get slammed by the high alphas are the ones who keep saying “fuck men, all men are pigs….” and look at the parallel of anger, all the betas who get burned by ordinary women are the ones who keep saying “fuck women, they’re all sluts….”

    Women’s sexual imperative is no better or worse than men’s. It is what it is. We’re on a quest for understanding, not a quest to breed hatred, resentment, and negativity in our own minds. That will get you nowhere fast.

    I would argue that beta game is a kind of broken male sexual strategy bred from rejection and abandonment issues in combination with believing fem-centric society’s advice/conditioning about how to get women, and the total lack of options that results from following that advice/conditioning, whether it’s getting suckered into a one-sided relationship with the woman controlling the frame and treating him like dirt, or just being a tormented incel for years on end.

    If a man had several women he was seeing and liked things about all of them, obsessing to death over a single girl would never look like a good idea. And if he was getting laid regularly and felt satisfied, there would be no reason to be angry or resentful of women. The alpha guys I’ve known never got resentful of women because they genuinely didn’t care. They were too busy living their lives and having all the sex on the side that they wanted to care about what women were doing or thinking or whatever. The women would just line up at the door for them and they just had fun whenever they wanted inbetween living their lives the way they wanted to.

    You could also see it as “The Second Set of Books” — that beta game is not always rooted in psychological/emotional problems, but it’s a natural part of male sexuality, and it worked until modern feminized society, with all the provisioning and promoting of the “Strong Independent Woman,” made it obsolete.

    Alphas wouldn’t exist, after all, if it weren’t for betas. Alphas are alphas because they’re a higher pecking order than the betas. Everyone can’t be at the top.

    And most guys wouldn’t care about the few guys fucking massive amounts of women as long as they had one woman who was faithful to them and sexually satisfied them.

    But whether it’s an obsolete biological courtship program, emotional trauma/abandonment issues, sexual deprivation, or a combination of those, the brunt of it is on men.

    Girl gets pumped and dumped by alpha, gets sympathy from all her friends — girls and male beta orbiters — and sympathy from mass media. Could even write a book about it and get rave reviews from all over the world.

    Meanwhile, hard-working, honest guys who just want a faithful woman, a healthy, vibrant sex life with her, and to feel appreciated and respected, and really have not done anything wrong, are completely ignored and/or pissed all over.

    The focus is all on absolving women of all guilt and providing sympathy and empathy for their bad life decisions, recklessness and irresponsibility, while apex alphas are used as the example to condemn all men. And the alphas aren’t even doing anything wrong — the women flock to them. The alphas just take advantage of women throwing themselves at them and live it up, and they shouldn’t be blamed for that. But again, it’s all about shifting blame and responsibility away from women.

    I’m not getting as angry about it as I used to. When I see girls posting stuff online about “nice guys” I just kind of laugh, roll my eyes and/or shake my head.

  26. @softek

    I’ve thought this over considerably. The idea of being more of a “jerk” is a turn-off to SOME women…or initially they pretend it is…or they have so many orbiters that they write you off as punishment.

    But…as is becoming clear to me…the “scarcity” mentality is what fosters this “nice guy” mentality which is born out of a fear of loss.

    When is top fearing losing the gear, I act how I want…if I want to be nice I am, if I want to tease I tease. Self-awareness is key to this.

    Also the understanding that you have to be prepared to lose a girl and constantly be approaching new ones.

    Finally through a mixture of game which I’m starting to use as a “filtering” mechanism for girls who I want to be with…and patience, you get what you want.

  27. Binary decision-making, ones and zeros, application of one theory over many, A>B, B<A (OK, those last two are bad examples!); all are symptomatic of being continually soaked in the digital rain of the matrix.

    Even in this Manosphere of relatively enlightened individuals, I still experience completely one/two-dimensional thinking every day.

  28. @Softek, “Beta men have so much in common with women and their attraction to apex alphas, it isn’t even funny.”

    is correct. Hence,

    “Alphas are alphas because they’re a higher pecking order than the betas.”

    is incorrect. Alphas are a higher pecking order than women.

  29. @Chokmah 9:22 pm. No.

    Yes. The manosphere has turned game into a kind of religion and cult. It’s so lame and self-defeating: consulting with and agreeing with “manosphere” gods, without even making a pragmatic reality check of whether is being preached has any validity. Nitzsche: a big failure, suicided. Feel safe to steer away from any of his thinking. Esther Villar: a psychopath, mentally-ill first generation feminist: feel safe to stay clear of any of her thinking. Gloria Steinem: psychopath and baby killer: feel safe as well staying clear of her. Mystery: a clown, transexual or what? Definitely not a healthy human being. Roissy? Angry nice guy trying to make women appeal to their reason. Manosphere: collective, disgruntled nice guys and nihilist PUA fake gamers united, trying to impose their world view and make women appeal to their reason, and in “neurotic suspension” impotency (thanks Mark Minter for that). Naturals? What a myth. I know two who are lame in comparison to a lot of humbler “betas”. “Game” players. I know equally two which are wussies. Porn stars? Illusion of sexual power and control over men, having embarked a path of no return who very few can escape. So, whenever in doubt, consult with the “manosphere” gods and oracle and they will give you a fail safe answer, and guarantee you freedom of pain, rejection, suffering and failure. It cannot get more nihilistic and suicidal than that. In fact, feminists did it and we’re watching the very sinking of their “new woman” project.

    That said, obviously all guys face many threats and challenges in the post feminist world and have to adapt and manage risks. So awareness about the potential problems is a good thing. However, turning this into a “cult” of mentally ill people is really so lame. And in this regard, feminists might indeed be right: to the point that the manosphere makes a cult of mentally ill people and try to justify the injustifiable (such as pedestalizing porn stars, and legitimizing “lane changers”, gold diggers, etc.) by assuming all the responsibility, they’re indeed just passively following the “feminine imperative” and validating the feminist quest for sexual freedom and no strings attached hypergamy optimization (after all, it’s all about his game and she has nothing to do about it), and as matter of fact even lack the spine to just be really honest about themselves about the ‘manosphere’ gods they’re culting. It cannot get more lame than that. And in fact feminist descended the same rabbit hole, downward spiral.

    But don’t take anything I am stating personally, enjoy your “neurotic suspension” impotency and paralysis, and when in doubt, consult with the manosphere oracle and it will give you an answer for your life. Fare well.

  30. @Badpainter re: “How is game not to be argued as a form of caving to the demands of the FI?”

    This higher-order question is defeatist, akin to asking “Why bother breathing, since we’re doomed to be worm fodder anyway?”

    The primary answer is utility. Game works, empirically. It works for the men’s purposes to give Game to women *because* of the demands of the FI. I’ll take Game here to mean techniques by which a man who is not successful with women can become more successful by imitating what works for Naturals.

    The larger answer requires some recapitulation of the FI. A woman wants the best man, best for herself and for her children. She will, however, “settle” for merely a better man, i.e. hypergamy. But she has to *feel* he is better, not just think or know he is better, for his betterness to affect her behavior. For example, it works a lot better for him to LOOK like a million bucks than for him to simply show her a balance of a million bucks. It would make things easier for women if there was a law so the guy who looked like a million also had a million, and vice versa.

    The FI demands “real” better, i.e. a Natural, but also would like to demand that non-Naturals look aka feel like non-Naturals. A man running good Game, even overtly, although there are a number of posts about women not wanting to see the sausage being made, makes a woman feel like he’s “really” better. There was a margarine commercial about “It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.”

    The funny thing about women is that they wrongly believe they are more easily fooled in their thinkings and so they trust their feelings more. Mother Nature is foolable most easily through her hindbrain, bypassing the thinkings altogether.

  31. Wow, this post is straight-up solid gold, one of the best I’ve read on RM. So much to respond to.

    First, remove the word “nice” from your vocabulary, mindset and behavior. Appeasement never gained anything in this world; just go to any schoolyard and see the social dynamics playing out between bully and prey. There’s a big difference between playing magnanimous and being it; one comes from a desperate need to lock up your only option, the other comes from abundance. We communicate more than we know and women are shrewd observers of behavior and body cues; when you give from abundance, women GET IT. They also know the nice guy game and will put you right in that neutered BFF slot in a heartbeat.

    Take it from me; I’m the former poster boy for all the LJBF memes and have heard every one of those “I wish I could find a guy just like you” lines without a shred of irony or self awareness. It only takes a hypergamic kicked to the curb event to really wipe the scales from your eyes. Never be nice. Be polite, be charming, be funny or a complete, monolithic prick; it doesn’t matter. Supplication dries a pussy up faster than a roll of Bounty, and the behaviors that get it wet and shaking are the SAME characteristics that make you a better man; enlightened self-interest, multiple options, strong frame, decisiveness and abundance. Game is just the outward expression of that inner investment.

    Take it from a 48 yr old, divorced and red pill convert. Nice is the final nail in the coffin you unwittingly built yourself.

  32. “But don’t take anything I am stating personally, enjoy your “neurotic suspension” impotency and paralysis, and when in doubt, consult with the manosphere oracle and it will give you an answer for your life. Fare well.”

    I think you will find many men in the Manosphere who have benefitted greatly from the material provided by the ‘Gods’; myself included.

    Though I do not automatically agree with every thing that is peddled our way (as demonstrated herein, I am personally very grateful for the advise an material produced (free-of-charge) as, at least during my formative years, I was almost completely void of an older male example. I owe the older men here and those in other other places a debt of gratitude for sharing their own experiences and reassuring me that I am not a complete failure with women, as well as at life in general.

    As has been said on this thread, the majority of Manosphere is geared primarily to perpetuating self improvement and worth, opposed to how to attracted women; indeed, I can advocate (as many do) the former as a source of the latter.

    As previously mentioned (about binary thinking), you seem to have some neuroses of your own, writing such a highly-strung, one-dimensional retort. Calm down, think about things rationally, start looking after yourself a bit better and then you will begin to realise that you’re not n awful lot different to the rest of us; you might even find yourself identifying with more of what you read.

    Fare well yourself.

  33. Many women have turned the term “nice guy” into a derogatory term to let themselves off the guilt hook for LJBF these guys and taking advantage of them. If “nice guys” aren’t really “nice” then it’s ok to take advantage of them. Because these men are just being “nice” because they want sex. No shit ladies!! ALL men, with the exception of gay men, want sex from women. WTF else do women have to offer? Women are are lying if they claim they didn’t know this already.

    I consider the current definition of “nice guy” as being gullible, selfless, giving, lacking confidence, easily taken advantage of, etc. They don’t look out for their own interests. They put the needs of every else above their own and don’t insist on having their own needs met. Male/female relationship are transactional, and “nice guys” do not get their end of the deal fulfilled. This leads to frustration, exploitation, and anger. The problem isn’t that they are kind, giving, good providers, etc., it’s that they lack the confidence to stand up for themselves and their needs. Nice guys don’t need to necessarily be “jerks” (this label is so subjective it’s meaningless), they just need be more selfish and look out for their own self interest and self defense.

  34. ” How many strings you have to your bow ultimately dictates your success. . . ”

    . . . assuming one has sufficient skill with the tool to place an arrow.

  35. Jf12,

    I get it. I do. Really.

    My question is more about if I have to change my basic nature what other than pussy am I getting on return?

    If the only guarantee is easier pussy than I prefer to go Jekyll and Hyde route of nice guy in player clothes. One thing’s for sure though; the indifference I have toward an ONS is genuine, just lack like my complete lack of respect.

  36. chokmah @8:48.

    he already said no.

    i came to the realization long ago that when most people like yourself are faced with the inevitable nihilistic or existential crisis that ineffable truths like these bring, you really have no choice but to fight them.

    with an identity and an ego so invested in the hope and skewed reality that you and your life have some larger tribal value. it does not.

    you are worthless. have no value to anyone else on this planet save “maybe” your parents and even that is quite conditional as you are likely a reflection of their ability to raise you and the sum total of their inputs into you.

    but…..you can and should value yourself, fix yourself, act in your interests, and you should. women do it every day, like the mercenary and predatory sharks they are…..always moving forward.

  37. “Your respectability, sterling character and being good with kids doesn’t make you look any better when your shirt comes off.”

    this is a keeper.

  38. I don’t know where you guys get off with this Nice guy discussion. You obviously have not gotten the memo … or a clue.

    Your world has moved into an entirely new form of social organization that is in the process of becoming formalized and institutionalized. Already there is already sufficient social, civil, criminal, and financial regulation to make this social organization de facto and de jure and movements are underfoot to institutionalize, culturalize, and formalize the new form of organization.

    Yet, it seems the vast majority of you insist on living in the past with some deluded notion of your male privilege. And those days are over.

    We are now organized in what is called Eusocialism. And this can best be thought of as a paraphrased on the old socialist mantra:

    “From each male, according to his talents ….
    “To each female, according to her needs”

    The best example of Eusocial societies in the animal kingdom are ants, bees, and the only mamalian Eusocial organized species, the Desert Mole Rat. In each colony, there are sexual castes, with one queen who reigns for 30 years, a few males with whom she will mate for few years before exchanging them for others,, and the rest of the colony acts in a servant role to support the queen, protect and feed her offspring, grow and maintain the burrow and tunnels that are the territory of the colony.

    And in human society, now there sexual and servant castes. Most of the females are in the sexual caste and a few of the males. And get this straight gentlemen, it is the females that decide which of the males are in that sexual caste and the males that have been picked will know it. And woe be unto the male interloper that attempts to overstep his lot in life. And that servant class of males has an economic strata to it, but even the highest strata of economic servant is still at the beck and call of women in the sexual caste. And women will reign in, humiliate, strip of position any male that forgets his place, r.e. Donald Sterling.

    Instead of this nonsensical talk about “nice” or not, you need to begin to assume the posture of DEFERENCE.

    If you have been selected into the sexual caste, then you will know it. And those selected can consider themselves privileged to be jocular, suggestive, or provocative.

    But the rest you must, at all times, be DEFERENTIAL., in act, in word, and in deed. And since only some small minority of men are selected into the sexual caste, it is best for each of you to not even question your particular caste and assume membership in the servant caste.

    It is your place to anticipate, provide, and provision the needs of women, but it is paramount that you not be so cheeky as to overstep your bounds, forget your place, and assume that your service allows some foolish access to the sexual caste. Do your part, fulfill your role, and step back when completed.

    And you must be deferential and be of service, by extension, to children, to animals, and to some protected groups of men, such as blacks, gays, and transsexuals that women have allowed to have special status.

    All of this so called Manosphere nonsense is nothing more than a tempest in a teapot, sound and fury, signifying nothing. You Men Going Your Own Way? Who do you think sent you in that direction? Your silly defection is exactly what is wanted from you. And how far do you think you will go? In the end, you still dance to the tune of women and your services are taken as desired by women whenever, wherever, and however women see fit,

    And you pathetic men that think you can change your fate through Game and Charisma still play into the hands of women. You have done nothing more than heighten the temporary sexual recreation of women and your efforts at “science” have enabled rank and file women to use this knowledge to properly vet those men selected for reproductive duty from those men whose lot in life in merely provisioning.

    So you must recognize this new social organization is your new reality and your haughty attempts to reclaim your male privilege through your micro-aggression of non-deferential glances, ill chosen phrases, and your male privileged postures must stop.

    And you must recognize this regime extends through the workplace where women reign supreme, into private spaces where much of public life occurs such as malls, clubs, restaurants in public spaces where women must pass, such as mass transportation, city streets. Your “Street Aggression” of furtive wishful glances, your petty approaches, your attempts to engage women in conversation must end. If all possible, avert your path and Give Women Their Space, and if that is not possible then avert your gaze with those rapey eyes of yours.

    And also this meta aggression against women must stop also. Your aggregate preferences for false cultural values have caused women harm, such as body image issues and Age-ism, Looks-ism. And these too must stop and men must adopt the proper reverence and deference to women. Failure to observe this in the public and virtual spheres, and also in private conversation, will not be tolerated.

    It is best for you to accept this new social organization, Eusocialism as fait accompli, and your new reality. It has taken 100 years to construct and for all intents and purposes,, it exists, It is created and currently enforced by courts, government, laws, regulations, and it lacks only institutionalization of a few loose ends to cement your status.

    This mode is evolutionarily superior in allowing women to select the best genetic stock and avoid Deleterious Replication Error so pervasive among the vast majority of men. It allows society to progress in ways that Patriarchy had held it back. Sound Gaia principles are now employed for the betterment through planning and not some helter skelter competition based model imposed on all by White Male Privilege.

    Eusocialism has control of the government, centers of finance the army, the police, and the courts, The only way to avoid this is via violent street revolution and you certainly lack the fortitude, so accept things as they are and show the proper deference your gender is now required to show women.

    Deferent, not nice. Get it?

  39. “i came to the realization long ago that when most people like yourself are faced with the inevitable nihilistic or existential crisis that ineffable truths like these bring, you really have no choice but to fight them.

    with an identity and an ego so invested in the hope and skewed reality that you and your life have some larger tribal value. it does not.

    you are worthless. have no value to anyone else on this planet save “maybe” your parents and even that is quite conditional as you are likely a reflection of their ability to raise you and the sum total of their inputs into you.

    but…..you can and should value yourself, fix yourself, act in your interests, and you should. women do it every day, like the mercenary and predatory sharks they are…..always moving forward.”

    pro comment, would read again

  40. @ Mark, “Deferent, not nice. Get it?”

    Splitting hairs here possibly. You say deferent, some say ‘nice guy with bollocks’. Same difference.

    Interesting piece about Eusocialism though. Ironic that the male of the species is most scarce, yet they are not the ones provided for.

  41. @MikePhil, great example “I wish I could find a guy just like you.” is probably the single best example of the precise way in which damaged women think.

  42. @Badpainter re: basic nature. I think the redpill does change a man. Roughly speaking, though, it primarily removes naivete and excuses for why what “should” work with women, i.e. being nice, does not work.

    The problem in recognizing that being nice doesn’t work is that, assuming what you really mean by “basic nature” is wanting a nice girl, is that it removes you being nice from consideration as an effective filter for getting a nice girl. The point is, it WASN’T effective even prior to the red pill.

    So, now, you’re wondering if you really want the kinds of women you can get by being not-nice. The answer is they are the same women as before. IOW it doesn’t change the *women’s* nature. By using Game knowledge you are NOT down-selecting for the supposed fraction of women who are susceptible: you are instead up-selecting yourself to enlarge your chances.

  43. @ chokmah

    While I do not agree with idealization of manosphere and I honestly think that most “gurus”, be it Jefferies, T.D, Roissy, etc., are really poor, poor fellas…certainly nothing to emulate….I deeply appreciate blogs like theese..and I salute to their authors.

    I witnessed hundreds of destroyed and ass-raped betas in divorce courts, couple of suicide attempts from my clients.. Many of our brothers could have been saved by …. honest INFORMATIONS about female nature. Unfortunately, it is too late for them, we can not help those “casulaties” but we CAN save young men..while it is ultimately up to them how they use those informations, at least they HAVE THEM!

    Should another man be ass-raped, taken to the cleaners for all he has, robbed of children, or pushed to suicide …. so be it! But be it from his own volition and stupidity and not due to fact that he had no chance … he was lied to and NOBODY in his fucking life cared about him enough to tell him the truth!

    Concepts of hypergamy, relational equity, amorality of women, their lack in appreciating and honoring, the sacrifice of man….all those thing are TRUTH! This is life, bro. Know yourself..and know the enemy, then you can fight many battles and … you can survive.

  44. Whenever I get into topics about the defining Alpha, how looks play an important part in arousal/attraction and the sins of the Nice Guy they never fail to provoke similar responses to Chokmah’s.

    These are often the toughest topics for guys to discuss because they force a self-examination and that’s always a tough look in the mirror. If the red pill is about truth it has to include a truth about ourselves.

    I can go off on a four part series and dedicate a book to the Preventative Medicine cautionings about what to expect from women during various, generally predictable, phases of their lives and men will pat me on the back for making them (or their sons) aware of it all.

    But write a book about what mentalities they can expect from themselves or due to their feminine conditioning, or explain the particular necessities of changing that ‘programming’ in themselves, and I’m a cult leader.

    I understand Chokmah’s disillusionment, he’s not alone in wanting to return to an “it’s not so bad as the manosphere makes it all to be” state. Guys like Athol Kay and Mark Manson now make a living from guy’s like Chokmah’s want for some compromised balance after taking the red pill and marrying them back to the same women’s imperatives they rail against the manosphere for making them aware of.

    If the manosphere is a cult or religion, what is the operative condition it exists in? For a cult to be a cult there must be a ‘normal’ for it to be considered an aberration of – what is that ‘normal’? How does that normal work for men, for women, for gender roles? How do principles like hypergamy, the feminine imperative and ‘male privilege’ work in ‘normal’? How does all of the truths the red pill brings, good and bad, fit in the ‘normal’?

    That was the real question about being a Nice Guy if that was all women wanted. It’s not about what women want from you, but what you want from you. Are you really that romantic, nice guy, ready to be the good altruist? Or is it a crisis of motive?

    I can only hold up the mirror, men and women have to want to look.

  45. Perhaps the question is ‘what do WE want’. What does the male imperative want?

    -Do we men like it that every time we get into a cab in a new city, the (male) cab driver is going to rip us off?. MI-argument for honesty/honor.

    -Do we men like taking our women out on the town, planning a classy date at an upscale restaurant followed by the late show at a jazz club? MI-argument for romanticism.

    -Do we men value having other men taking us seriously via keeping our word? That when we tell another man something, they can take that to the bank. Do we prefer other men’s respect rather than ‘justifiable’ derision? MI-argument for integrity.

    The need for sex and appreciation is a very real one. But at the end of the day, perhaps it’s not all about arousing or attracting a woman. It’s about living a better life for ourselves, irrespective of whatever attracts or arouses women. That to me is the MI.

    Excellent, thought-provoking post Rollo.

  46. I owe the older men here and those in other other places a debt of gratitude for sharing their own experiences and reassuring me that I am not a complete failure with women, as well as at life in general.

    So do I. But that’s not the point. The point is that “game” is not a panacea for male suffering, or the cure to “Eusocialism” as Marks puts it. As I view it, it’s akin to superstitions in the USSR. Communism abolished religion and people quickly adopted a lot of superstitions. They would be better off living like monks.

    …you are worthless. have no value to anyone else on this planet save “maybe” your parents and even that is quite conditional.

    That’s nihilism: “Psychiatry A delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one’s mind, body, or self does not exist.”. The beta is killing the beta and game won’t save him.

    If all possible, avert your path and Give Women Their Space, and if that is not possible then avert your gaze with those rapey eyes of yours… The only way to avoid this is via violent street revolution and you certainly lack the fortitude, so accept things as they are and show the proper deference your gender is now required to show women.

    🙂 Thanks again, Mark. Obviously the whole problem is with the violent rebellious. Not with Eusocialism. It will conquer the world… Those bastard muslims and rogue rooskies… (sarc)

  47. Rollo to your point,

    Had dinner with an uncle last night.

    Late 40’s, Serious natural, but after his second divorce/farm animal experience, he came to me for the medicine. After seeing the (cute/mean is how my 9yo calls the way he treats girls) way I treat the several “good girls/keepers” he has met that I refuse to address as more than friends, the cognitive lock it gave him was savage but to his credit he pushed through.

    Six months, more than a few successes for him, and lo and behold last night I met Farmer Jill. After a few weeks, she and the teen daughter are moved in, and yet again he is paying the bills. She rightfully hates my guts. Terrified of what lies behind my sly grin.

    He just can’t do it. He knows exactly whats going on and he is desperately trying to live the delusion. He NEEDS it. Spitting it up for what his ego can identify with. A complete va-hina.

    The more I walk out in this world I think the percentages look like this:

    5% with the capacity to be alpha/sigma/successful/whatever
    1/2% that actually are

  48. If the manosphere is a cult or religion, what is the operative condition it exists in?

    You’d better off writing a book about what “game” is per your definition, because certainly for me “game” is your “normal” and your religion. I bet you can hardly define what “game” is. That’s the problem with much of the manosphere. Most of the manosphere defers everything to “game”: game is the answer, game is the solution, game will save marriage, game will give you the girl of your dreams, etc. I would welcome instead a series about what “game” is. Nothing to object though about your studies of what arouses women or not. For your knowledge, I have never read Athol Kay or Mark Manson…

    And you pathetic men that think you can change your fate through Game and Charisma still play into the hands of women. You have done nothing more than heighten the temporary sexual recreation of women and your efforts at “science” have enabled rank and file women to use this knowledge to properly vet those men selected for reproductive duty from those men whose lot in life in merely provisioning… The only way to avoid this is via violent street revolution and you certainly lack the fortitude…

  49. I view the manosphere as a place to find answers to important questions. Guidance. Even therapy for some.

    There is so much misinformation and manipulation in the blue-pill world. Ignorance is so dangerous it can ruin you life, and the lives of your children. The manosphere exists because it needs to exist.

    The “nice guy” needs red-pill awareness. ‘Nice guys finish last’….nice guys don’t finish “nice”. Perhaps they learn and become “bad boys” that attract women, but probably just as common they become “angry guys” that women should rightly be afraid of. Misogynists are not born, they are created. Knowledge can put men on a better path.

  50. re: the “real” attractive. Rhetorical question for those who think a man is betraying himself by behaving in ways which work better with women: Is a woman who wants a man betraying herself by trying to act more feminine than she “normally” would?

  51. “I think the fact that Nietzshce suicided has great toll on the validity of all his philosophy and reasoning. ”

    Nietzsche was an anti-nihilist who died of the last of a series of strokes that left him physically unable to commit suicide before the ultimate stroke.

    I think your premises being fabrications has a negative impact upon the validity of your conclusion.

  52. reading Chokmah’s comments is like reading any Feminist or feminized argument.

    starts with a pithy yet esoteric handle that reinforces the posters ego position of either a. extreme perceived intelligence or b. a perceived enhanced understanding

    then it goes like this….

    fact
    fact
    reframe
    appeal to authority
    quote thought leader
    another reframe
    fact(loose)

    all thats left is to jump behind
    “don’t hit me i’m a girl”

    lol! 😉

  53. jf12,

    I never assumed this new awareness would change the nature of women. For me the Redpill merely confirms what I suspected all along. I suspected the problem was me both in terms of behavior and in terms of understanding. So it did change me; from a hopeful sceptic to a proud cynic.

    But what am I “up selecting for?” Perhaps it’s laziness but I just don’t see the point in making the effort to be worthy of a woman’s “opportunistic love.” How does that benefit me? Near as I can tell it doesn’t. I get the idea that to obtain that I must have an abundance mentality. Which I understand to mean I have relatively easy access to something I don’t need, nor do I particularly want. It’s like liver. Liver to me is always cheap and easily available because I don’t eat liver. I understand that’s a perversion of the definition of abundance but I’m good with it.

    I’ll guess I’ll have get a dog.

  54. The manosphere stirs up stuff inside of you. That’s why everyone gets upset about it.

    It’s just like anything else in life. If someone says something to you, whatever you feel is your reaction to it. Who’s doing it to you? You are.

    If we were really sure of ourselves and our views, we wouldn’t be stirred up. We’d just kind of laugh and shake our head. These are all just words on a page. We have a reaction and then completely blame the reaction on the words, as if there’s no separation between our reaction and the words.

    Our reaction shows that something got stirred up inside of us — and whatever it is that got stirred up is what’s really bothering us. And that stuff that got stirred up was inside of us long before we read anything on here.

  55. jf12,

    How is it “good for me?” Not the liver, the other thing.

    I might be compelled to eat liver if it cured cancer, and caused me to crap gold nuggets.

  56. Why are some of you so down on Nietzsche just because he committed suicide? You say he is a failure; everyone dies, he took control of his own death. The fact that his work lives on makes him closer to immortality than most will ever achieve. Disregarding everything a person has done simply because of the way they died is pretty damn stupid and shallow.

  57. …You’d be wrong, and it is in the book… https://therationalmale.com/2013/04/19/the-evolution-of-game/

    I don’t think so. In the referenced article you refer to Game, with capitals, about 90 times, in the third person. There is no reference about what “game” is for you, or you have “game” for that matter. Game, with “G”, is your religion. You believe and revere “Game”, even though you cannot define what it is for you (even though towards the end you converge towards a vision of “emancipation” of feminine imperative through awareness of what the feminine imperative is, which actually is more in line with my own view).

    I have no problem though about clarifying what the “feminine imperative” is and how it may affect men. But I do think it’s kind of utopical thinking that men can be completely unplugged of the “feminine imperative”, as they’re “plugged” in the first place to their mothers. Not good or bad in itself. What we have to be really unplugged is from the feminist ideology and how it distorted gender relations.

    I do not need you to make me look into the mirror, even though I appreciate it. I would like you instead to look yourself into the mirror and tell me in total honesty what “Game” is for yourself and who are your masters. Do you have masters? Who? Roissy? Mystery? Why? What legitimizes them to be your masters, if so?

    reading Chokmah’s comments is like reading any Feminist or feminized argument.

    I will describe your relationship with Rollo and with most of manosphere bloggers, even though I do not object about the knowledge of the “feminine imperative” and how it was distorted for the aim of feminist supremacy:

    “I read Rollo’s blog and clarifications about the “feminine imperative” and I am confident that by doing so I will develop “Game” (with capital “G”), which will save me from this insidious feminine imperative, even though I have no evidence or proof that Rollo, Roissy, Mystery knows what “Game” is, but I believe he does because he knows so much about women and the “feminine imperative”, and Roissy, Mystery, Strauss, etc. were his masters, and so I need to listen to their precious lessons because they will teach me “Game” and the mastery of life, of my fears, and suffering through the power of “Game” (with “G” capital), even though I myself actually do not know either what “Game” really is or what it means for myself.”

    Now feel free to attack me and defend your master, because I have just uttered a blasphemy. But never mind, I do not object to your religion either, if it gives you comfort and the answers you need. All the best.

  58. “Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better.” – Albert Camus

    Story of my life, and best response to Mark’s accurate deconstruction of the official Cathedral memo.

    -Put yourself first
    -Create abundance in all areas of life
    -Give help and inspire others when you can
    -Become the best version of ‘you’ that you can possibly be

    All answers to ‘the Memo’. And Mark – if that was an earnest passing shot at MGTOWs in the middle – this answers that as well. It doesn’t matter who ‘sent us our own way’, it just matters that we create a great life in spite of it.

  59. “I might be compelled to eat liver if it cured cancer . . .”

    Now see, here’s a good example of how personal outlook can lead to a difference in personal style; I prefer to prevent cancer.

    If you haven’t done so, try a bit of calf’s liver. More expensive than beef liver, but nowhere near as “livery.” Only a few ounces a week is ample. A few ounces a month is adequate. It be powerful stuff.

    You need to eat something else entirely to crap gold nuggets, but really, all you’ll do is take all the fun out of it; not worth it. Don’t ask me how I know, just trust me on this one.

  60. Who’s up for a song?

    “Those rapey eyes
    Will make you weep
    You’ll cry and cry
    And try to sleep
    But sleep won’t come
    The whole night through
    Those rapey eyes will tell on you…”

    🙂

    The words “nice,” “jerk,” “alpha,” and “beta” don’t really capture what it is women want. They want “cool,” as in unflappable, steady, and laid back. They do not want nervous, emotional, or eager.

  61. j/k font on
    Re: “At its root level Game is a series of behavioral modifications to life skills based on psychological and sociological principles to facilitate intersexual relations between genders.”

    Yeah, but besides that and anything else like that, there is no reference to what “Game” means to you or to anyone else. In fact, setting your definition aside, I’m therefore free to decide that what you mean by Game is stuff you do in order to make intersexual relations more difficult.
    j/k font off

  62. kfg,

    Well I suppose with enough garlic, Cajun seasoning, and onions I could choke down liver as part of a stew. But the foul stink of raw liver, I shudder at the thought of dealing with the prep.

    jf12,

    Sure vitamin V. I acknowledge the value. But that alone doesn’t explain the benefit of keeping the W around in between doses. Or is that the benefit?

  63. With due respect Chokmah you come across as the kind of person who still views your democratic vote as contributing to a so-called democracy, a conspiracy theory denier who believes that such theories are the psychedelic daydreams of tin-foil hat wearing hippies, one who believes the ‘war on terror’ wasn’t just another exercise in mass-population control, as someone who believes that Christianity, Islam and Judaism are religions derived from different original scripture.

    If you want to bash people round the head with your accusations of cult movements, I would suggest you look more closely at the practice of the dark arts, and at some of the subjects I have mentioned above; though I warn you as I was once warned by a an aging eminent alpha, do not meddle to closely in those things you are not overly familiar with.

    Tell us this now Chokmah; if there were no need for a call to action, such as this, would there be such an outpouring of emotional verbal diarrhea, as is observed on sites such as this and SoSuave, by so many otherwise apparently mentally stable males?

    As I said before, and as others have alluded to, I do not think you are too rational right now. To be honest, when the book ‘The Game’ first arrived on the scene, I was skeptical too. However, latterly, I am more open to suggestion about the ideas of other men, owing mainly to the fact that every SINGLE female I have been involved with for an extended period of time since leaving college at the age of 18 has, in one way or another, either actively deceived me to a greater or lesser extent, or indeed I have observed as actively withholding information from close family or peer groups, usually in order to save their own embarrassment/difficult conversation/face. And that goes for ALL of them, right up to the women I am involved with right now. Believe me that I exaggerate not here; I have loved a couple of these people dearly. But they were dishonest, and definitely more so than most blokes that I know. It’s like a genetic predisposition or summat….

    ….explain you theory behind that, Chokmah dude.

  64. The dissent is necessary to prevent boring echo chamber stupor.

    Dr. Phil wasn’t the first one to assume the M.O. ‘project certainty at all costs, irrespective of how full of shit you may be’. This is a faux-alpha credo that must always be challenged. Remember – Strauss finished up ‘The Game’ by boldly declaring that he was done ‘playing the game’, because Lisa was The One. With his singular, new-found, superior wisdom – the wisdom which conferred his authoritative status upon this seminal tome – he just knew. And the PUA community just bought it. And he and Lisa were soon history. D’oh!

    One thing Rollo said in ‘The Feminine Mystique’ essay – the closer you get to the truth, the louder people will screech. That rang true to me when I read it, based on my lifetime experience of uttering unpleasant truths. But regardless, dissent is necessary. We are all fallible humans who are inching towards the nihilistic certainty of death. That grounding humility should prevent the idiocy of cult-think. Tangentially, no man is less trustworthy to me than he who is obsessed with cryogenics.

  65. @ Chokmah

    human self reflection is really tough. maybe the hardest thing a human being can do.

    the only thing I want to defend is you, providing you are male (and I wonder based on your intense desire to frame when fact isn’t available), your ability to exist as an independent person with your own emotional matrix.

    if that means MGTOW, Player, Incel Jedi Master, whatever you got going on over there, just live your own life, by your rules.

    But I walk the walk, so if I bang your sister/GF/wife/current one-itis while you are still stuck in some wacky moral K-hole, it’s not my fault, nor Game, nor anyone but yourself. You should ask why.

  66. Steve H “-Do we men like it that every time we get into a cab in a new city, the (male) cab driver is going to rip us off?. MI-argument for honesty/honor.”
    Well nearly all thieves (and other criminals) are male, as the femorrhoids constantly remind us. Some of them even have cabby licenses. Or police uniforms and badges, etc. etc.

    That’s why I tote around a cheapo Garmin satnav, not much bigger than a pack of cigs, tracking the whole trip if in doubt. And have the sound turned up to eleven, if I suspect that matey might be more than usually deviant in his itinerary.

  67. Badpainter, my old flatmate used to have the same problem with liver. Even though he needed it (inadequate diet (we were horribly poor) and some childhood affliction which meant they had had to chop his spleen out so his guts were a bit fucked all the time).

    Solution. Cut into smallish squares, fry the living heck out of it on a metric fuckton of prebrowned sliced onions, and then dump a jar of vindaloo paste (or other subcontinental noocular waste of your choice) on it, hoy in a cup of water and simmer forever, then introduce it to the rice/chapatis etc.).

    The preparation ickypoos can be ameliorated somewhat by sticking the plastic chopping board under a couple of inches of clean water in the sink, same deal with the onions, garlic if that stuff bothers you, or you don’t want the apartment to smell like a Frenchie’s culottes, should young ladies be in the offing.

    Can’t abide pigliver except as pate, mind. Lambs’ all the way. Ox at a pinch.

  68. To take this back to the original topic, I think Rollo’s suggesting something that’s really profound. It took me a while to fully absorb the concept before I got it.

    I remember reading somewhere that the true definition of hell is the distance between what we want to the world to be, and the reality of what the world actually is. I spent most of my life there, getting the wind knocked out of me on a regular basis like Charlie Brown and his endless efforts to kick the football. But I never doubted that the flowers,cards and romantic dinners I kept offering would eventually pay off……one day. Was I ever wrong.

    What Rollo’s asking is this; what is your investment in pursuing Nice Guy behaviors, when all of the evidence suggests that not only is it not appreciated, it’s actually counter-productive as an adult man to act this way? In other words, we know it doesn’t work, so why keep doing it? What investment do we have in doubling down on a failed mindset, over and over again, hoping we’ll hit the jackpot that never happens?

    And how much more do you need to see, to finally conclude that your romance novel ideas are just that, and do not serve you as an adult, a man and a human with valid, profound emotional needs?

    Behavior change can be fiendishly difficult to enact, mostly because we are so fully invested in our illusions that prying ourselves from them hits us at our core. But I’d rather accept the knowledge of what’s real and start working from there, than continue to throw good energy into propping up a belief system that isn’t benefiting me. Red pill / positive masculinity is a tool, like a hammer or a saw; what you build with it is up to you. You can let it gather dust in the toolbox or use it to create a cathedral. You just have to decide what’s worth the investment of YOUR time and passion.

  69. ….explain you theory behind that, Chokmah dude.

    No, theory, dude. If you have to find your own answers and make your own decisions.

  70. @Tilikum: It seems that your master Rollo had presciently prophesied about you:

    “Remember that the world, and many female bloggers with chips on their shoulders, hated me; and they will also hate you. If you suffer for Game’s sake, remember that I am with you. And remember that neither shit tests, nor breakups, nor flaking, nor snowflaking, nor batshit crazy, can ever keep you from your confident and dominant frames.

    “But you have seen that which I have done, and read the words I have written unto you and given unto you. And I tell you that these and greater things all of you will do, for the sake of male female love, long lasting marriages, and intact families. I tell you that you will write greater and more insightful things than I, and the Game will reach even to the ends of the earth.

    “But this I command you: Go forth and tell all the world of the good news. Go forth and make disciples of the Manosphere. Go forth and teach them all that I have taught you.”

    Bow down before him, so that he can grant you more power.

  71. @Chokmah

    please try and figure out how to feel complete. i always feel bad for the most horrid of wretches.

    be well.

  72. Rollo – don’t know where else to send this: I notice you seem to be developing a lifecycle view of women. Curious if you have integrated Louann Brizendine’s “The Female Brain” into your understanding of their hormonal drives, particularly as some drives fall off after their cycle goes away. In particular – I know many post-menopausal women who are surfing the wave of freedom they feel of no longer being (as) driven to partner. Enough women have confirmed this with me that I commend the book to any male with a pre-menipausal woman to manage through the transition. Good luck.

  73. Man….. I give up with this guy…..

    You can lead a horse to water, an’ all that.

  74. Ten years ago I had no control over my relationship. Everything romantic and chivalrous I did was because I quivered in fear. She left me, and my fear turned to anger, my anger turned to hatred, and I turned to the Dark Side.
    Did I have more succes with women? Yes, but only because my loss gave me a drive I never had before.
    Did I feel good? Hardly, I had lost myself.
    It took me a long time to admit that what I really want is to treat a woman like a princess, and even longer to gather the courage to love and be vulnerable again.
    There’s a need for a Light Side of the Game, where men can be romantic, caring, and giving.

  75. @Bellum, I agree, but, the universe doesn’t care. As I said upstream, you aren’t selecting for women who want nice when you drive women away by treating them nice.

  76. anoneemus , I found “The Female Brain” about six months after my X went BSC at 45. It’s a good read and based on my experince does explain what’s going on in a woman’s brain, especially when she hits peri -menopause.

    In retrospect I don’t think it would have helped me to save our marriage, even if I’d read it even a couple of years before mine left. Of the many accounts I’ve read about women going through this in “Women’s Only” menopause forums, they often go from “My husband’s been very understanding of my bitchy behavoir and hot flashes” to ” I can’t bear to have him touch m” and finally, “I’ve found my Soul Mate from High school on Face book” in a matter of months.

    Even if the marriage survives, the wife often becomes someone you and the kids don’t even recognise anymore, which is why many men retreat to “Man Caves” and separate bedrooms. I don’t know what the solution is, of the many women in this age group I’ve dated in the last three years I see the same examples of “Eat, Pray, Love” and new tattoos repeated over and over again.

  77. @ jf12.
    That’s just it, being nice doesn’t drive them away: it’s neutral when it comes to arousal. That’s a world of difference, as it opens up strategies that allow for being ‘nice’ by obtaining arousal through other means than being a jerk.
    For LTRs, where a woman’s need for Beta provisioning and security has to be met, this is crucial.

  78. Bellum, having gone through repeating cycles of this my whole life I can only conclude that it’s always going to be a “Push Pull” Game in a LTR. The problem is it’s rare to get a shot of generating a tingle by being “Nice” in the beginning. Once in the friend zone at best you become a spare tire that rarely if ever makes it out of the trunk until the car’s got a lot of mileage on it.

  79. “Once in the friend zone at best you become a spare tire that rarely if ever makes it out of the trunk until the car’s got a lot of mileage on it.”

    damn. thats good.

  80. On a personal level, I like being the nice guy. I enjoy being compassionate, empathetic, and genuine. But I don’t kid myself that this is what makes me attractive to women. I enjoy being nice, compassionate, empathetic and genuine to unavailable women (i.e., married women), or single women I’m not particularly interested in sexually or romantically. It satisfies the part of me that enjoys being the nice guy.

    As for the women I’m actually interested in, I know better than to believe that they are attracted to my niceness. In my workplace, or in social settings, I am naturally dominant. For whatever reason, I exude power and control. And I have learned that this is what women find attractive in me. In most cases, I find that the women I go out with were initially “pissed off” by my attitude of being in charge. But it is that very trait that acts like catnip to them.

    I don’t have to pretend to be dominant. I simply am. The two times I’ve served on juries, it was assumed by the other jury members that I would be the foreman. In EVERY place I’ve ever worked, within a short period of time, I was asked to take responsibility because people see me as capable of handling the burden.

    The biggest mistake I ever made in my life was when I consciously made a decision to be submissive to my ex-wife in order to appease her. It was an unnatural pose, and since, at that time, I had never even heard of Hypergamy, I was frustrated that she always treated me better when I just didn’t give a fuck what she thought.

    Maybe for some, being dominant is a pose. For me, being submissive is a pose. What I’ve learned by reading in the manosphere the last few years is “Why” I’ve had so many attractive women find me appealing. I never used to understand “why” I had such an easy time appealing to women.

    In the 6 years since I’ve been divorced, I’ve had 4 women propose to me – two of whom were 17 years younger than me. At age 48, with a pot belly, and not in the best shape of my life, I still find it very easy to approach beautiful women. I’ve told my son that the easiest way to get a pretty woman is to simply ask. But that isn’t really true (although I’ve never really understood why men find women so unapproachable.) Prior to getting married, I dated Playboy models, and even dated two roommates at the same time – which both were aware of. I was even approached to become a Gigilo.

    So, what I’ve had to make peace with is realizing that being nice (and I am a genuinely nice guy at heart) is not what attracts women. What they like about me is that I am bold, decisive, and demanding. I am willing to fire a non-performing employee quickly – even as I try to offer him/her comfort and compassion while being fired. I’ve been told by friends that I have an aura of Power about me. It’s just who I am.

    But the difficulty has been dealing with those who are intimidated by me, but are in positions of authority over me. I have had to learn to ignore the voices that surround me in society that tell me something is wrong with me for being so dominant.

    I suspect that many men out there are also more naturally dominant than they show. And that is because that dominance is something that they’ve been told is a character defect – much like I’ve been told that since I was a small boy. To those men, I would suggest allowing that dominant personality to come out. You don’t have to be a “jerk,” even if some others think you might be. You can be nice on your own terms without apology. But you have to learn to confront those who accuse you of being overbearing and expose it as an insecurity in them. It is their character flaw that causes them to feel intimidated, not your own.

    And as you allow that naturally dominant personality to come forth, you will find it easy to attract women. Dress like a man. Act like a man. And never, ever be intimidated by any woman. They are such naturally insecure creatures that they crave the strength you have. You CAN be nice to them if it pleases you to be nice to them. But if they start acting entitled, bring the hammer down, and immediately call them out on it. Never let them take you for granted.

    So yes. You can be a nice guy – as long as you explicitly demand their appreciation of your “niceness.” You cannot leave it to them to appreciate your nice gestures. You must DEMAND their appreciation of your “niceness” under threat of removing that niceness. Is that ideal? No. But that is how it is.

    When you bring her flowers, or write her poetry, demand a commensurate response. Her: “Oh, how nice these flowers are.” You: “You do realize this means I get an extra special blowjob tonight, right.” Her: “You can’t ask me for that.” You: “Then give me back the flowers. I’m sure Peggy from work will appreciate how nice I can be.” Her (while clinging to the flowers): “You’re such a jerk.” You: “Now you need to apologize. You KNOW that’s not true. I’m a nice guy.” Her: “I’m sorry.” You (with a sly smile): “You know, I’ll believe your apology is more sincere if you get down on your knees.”

    Now, not only have you been able to be the nice guy, but she knows you are in charge, and you can bet the blowjob you get will be a good one.

  81. “A lot of guys get lost in these definitions. They believe a woman at her word in what she finds attractive in a man, but then conflate this list of qualities (read any woman’s online dating profile) with what a woman finds arousing. While there may be attraction without arousal, there is never arousal by way of what makes a man attractive. Your respectability, sterling character and being good with kids doesn’t make you look any better when your shirt comes off.”

    So true! Signed up at Ashley Madison a while ago, I would venture that close to 40 to 50% of the married women there say something along the lines of ” I have a fantastic marriage, but the passion is gone. I want to feel the excitement again”

    Which is then usually followed by, “and a good sized package would be appreciated”

    Fuck!

  82. I’m having a lot less cognitive dissonance lately after I just got indirectly shut down again by a long-term interest I’ve had (started talking about a guy she’s banging that I didn’t know about — that cleared up the picture pretty quickly).

    Kind of want to kick myself, but…not going to. It’s a learning process.

    I’ll tell you where the friendzone is: it’s in your head. You want to believe that something is going to happen with a girl and that you’ve got your foot in the door because you’ve always been there for her for so long, and you always have “so much fun” when you hang out, they like you, they tell you they enjoy spending time with you.

    Yeah…no.

    Rollo’s said if a woman’s interested in you, she won’t confuse you.
    A girl that I was not interested in was interested in me. That girl let me know she was interested in me because while we were hanging out she initiated physical contact herself, I just went along with it, and next thing I know I’m on my back and she’s pulling my boxers down and sucking my dick.

    After she swallowed I figured out, “Oh. She must be interested in me. Okay.” For real. That oblivious.

    And that was the second day we were hanging out. I’d never met her or hung out with her before. We’re talking 0 to 60, although in her mind when we started hanging out I guess she was already going 60. She did not tell me she liked me or cared about me or wanted to be with me. What she “said” was ask if I wanted her to go down on me, and then she did.

    Night and day. I’ve known other girls for years and years and spent so much time with them and never saw one iota of pussy, and only on a couple of occasions got a hug. Nothing was ever going to happen. And I was in the friendzone in my mind. I’d spend all my time there wishing and hoping and never realized how short I was selling myself and how by being the pursuer, I’d already lost.

    If you’re waiting for something to develop, you’re already fucked. I learned that one after reflecting on that experience with that other girl. That was the first time in my life any girl showed sexual interest in me — and it was very, very clear. She was the one throwing herself at me. And when she did and I just soaked it all up she was very happy about that and it was just this torrential downpour of praise and compliments and how great I was and everything inbetween.

    I haven’t had a lot of experience, but the little I have had has shown me the difference between pursuing a girl who may or may not be interested in you eventually, and one who absolutely, unequivocally is. It is night and day. There’s no mistaking it.

    We’re not being nice to ourselves and loving ourselves when we willingly stay in the friendzone in our minds — wishing and hoping and fantasizing. A girl who’s interested will give you so much more, and she’ll give it at the drop of a hat.

    Now…how much of that interest did I generate? I have no idea. Probably a lot. I was not interested in or infatuated with her, so my behavior around here was completely different from my behavior around women I *am* interested in or infatuated with.

    So the manosphere breaks down all these behaviors. But really I think a great exercise is to talk to women that you have absolutely no sexual interest in at all, and see how you behave. That can be a good insight into what your “Game” is.

    Including not responding to every message, phone call, or even words they’re speaking to you in person, not thinking about them, and generally just not caring that much.

    It’s easy to do because it’s genuine. The ‘fatal attraction’ isn’t there. You’re not blinded by romance. This is still a woman with a vagina that is capable of having sex with you, but you don’t care because you’re kind of “meh” about her.

    Your behavior will be completely different, and you won’t even have to try. That is genuine “Game.” Just observe yourself and the way you interact. The lack of sexual attraction allows you to just be who you are and act the way you want to act with your own priorities in mind.

    I have done this with plenty of girls who were interested in me, and I wasn’t interested in them. Looking back on it, if I had a clue what was going on, I could’ve been living it up and having all the sex I wanted.

    Anyway…then notice how you talk to women you’d *REALLY LOVE* to be with. DESPERATE much? Throwing yourselves at them? Then wonder why they never showed any sexual interest in you. Or maybe they did very early on in your friendship, but you never capitalized on it, and you lost.

    Reading about “Game” is like reading about how I normally act around people that I’m not intimidated by — e.g., my family. My own parents would tell me that if I acted like I did around them, I would have it made, not only career wise, but with girls.

    Going into a love trance because you think this girl is “the one” or she’s really something special — THAT is what fucks you up.

    This isn’t nihilistic or depressing, guys. This is all about how we go into a TRANCE when we perceive some woman is very high value and is above us.

    “She’s so hiiiiiiiiiigh, high above me” — ever hear that song on the radio? Do you know what it’s really about? A trance! I’m sure they didn’t intend that when they wrote it, but that’s what it is. A trance.

    The less attractive woman has a vagina just like the really attractive one. And they probably feel very similar. The real problem is that you are going into a trance of submission and beta-hood because you perceive this women to be “so high above you.”

    Talk to women you have no sexual interest in and see what you do — this is you when you are not in a trance. This is you acting naturally.

    “Game” sounds cultish just because it’s breaking down behaviors that we perform naturally when we are not in a trance. “Game” is what we naturally do. It’s how we naturally act, say, around our family. All the sarcasm, detachment, poking fun, making jokes, ball-busting — I do this with my family constantly, always have, and never even think about it.

    It just sounds weird because it’s giving a name to what’s natural. The real problem, I’d argue, isn’t even that men don’t understand Game — it’s that they constantly are going into a *TRANCE* when they get hot for some woman they think is an angel, and lose touch with the Game that is naturally inside of them, and always was even though they might never have known it was there or recognized it for what it was.

    And then they have to learn about “Game” to remind themselves of who they really are and what they really want. But if you take a minute to talk to a girl you’re not interested in, a girl that has a vagina just like every other girl, and could have sex with you just like every other girl….you see the truth of Game living and breathing in your thoughts, actions, words and behaviors.

    And it’s because you legitimately do not give a fuck because you genuinely don’t care about having sex with her.

    Applying that mentality of not caring to women you are attracted to — that is what “Game” is about, as I understand it. At the heart of it. I have not been able to do it yet because when I am sexually attracted to a girl I go into the “Romance Trance.”

    We live in the illusion that “I really, really want to have sex with this girl, so that must mean she’s an angel.”

    You don’t consciously think that, but that’s what your subconscious is doing.

    *BEEEEEEEEP*!!! Buzzer’s going off. Wake up!

    Your desire to really fuck a woman does not mean that she is an angel or all these other things you project onto her. She’s the same as that ugly girl you don’t want to have sex with. She is a human female. You are making all of this stuff up in your mind.

    So we can learn Game, but the most important part is to realize that we are going into a TRANCE. Capslock. I do not use that very often because it generally makes you look retarded. But this is very important.

    And that’s why people get all pissy about Game. Talk to a girl you don’t want to have sex with because she doesn’t look that good and you will see that Game is real, and it has lived inside of you your whole life. You just fuck up because you go into what?

    A *TRANCE*. The trance of romance. The romance trance. It is not real. You are doing this to yourself and you are creating this illusion in your own mind. Again, it’s not nihilistic or depressing once you realize this. At the other side of the tunnel where the light is shining through, you have control over your own mind, your own emotions, and are free to live your life the way you want.

  83. @Softek, great reminder of need for vigilant self-awareness. “I have not been able to do it yet because when I am sexually attracted to a girl I go into the “Romance Trance.”” LOL

    Yes, the tendency to oneitis is hard to shake, if it ever was there in the first place. It seems the main cure is to spin plates as best you can.

  84. Softek – inner work solution to this issue:

    There do not exist women who merit ‘WOW she’s so f*cking hot’.

    There are only women you might be interested in hooking up with, who you might allow to hook up with you.

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