The ‘Real’ Nice

fake_nice_guy

I once posed this question to the SoSuave forum:

Let us say, in a strange alternate world, women would LOVE you if you were a Nice Guy. In this world, you could do all the things you wanted to do. You could be sappy. You could write her poetry and SHE WOULD LOVE IT. The more of a Nice Guy you were, the more women in general would love and appreciate you.

And in this alternate world, the jerks and players would be the ones sneered at by women. If you were a jerk in this world, no woman would like you. If you were cocky, they would dismiss you immediately.

Would you remain a Nice Guy if you were in this alternate world?

I got a variety of answers ranging from the want for clearer, but no less useful terminologies,…

First off, I object to the labels. I know they’ve been used here and in the seduction community for a long time, but I don’t really believe in the stereotypes. I’m not a ‘nice guy’ or a jerk or a bad boy. Having said that and cleared the air, let’s go back to the stereotypes:

How many guys came here to this forum as “nice guys”? They were probably perfectly happy with themselves and only decided to change so they could do better with women. So they became assholes. Just to please women. I don’t see why they wouldn’t do the opposite in this “alternate reality”. I don’t care for the stereotypes. Half the guys on this forum think a “jerk” or a “douche” is a desireable thing to be. Something’s wrong with this picture. Somehow a “jerk” has become a guy with backbone who stands up for himself. 

The definition of a “nice guy” should just be a man who respects others as well as himself. But instead, in dating circles, “nice guy” means wimp.

…to the hope for Relational Equity and an appreciation for being ‘nice’…

I don’t think it’s that simple. You can be compassionate and kind without supplicating–and the whole “nice” thing isn’t really about kindness, it’s about supplicating and expecting something in return. “Nice” is really just synonymous with needy, unattractive behaviors, as I see it-it’s not even GENUINE kindness, as when you expect nothing in return.

To me, being an alpha “bad boy” just means going after what you want. It means pushing the envelope and being aggressive in pickup. It doesn’t mean being antisocial or violent, or being a dick to people. It often happens that an aggressive guy has these tendencies, but I don’t think they contribute to his success with women unless they bring him some fame, too. I think women DO have a capacity to appreciate kind gestures, and will certainly judge a man by how he treats his family, etc. The “protector of loved ones” is an attractive archetype to women. 

The guys that lose out are the ones that do “nice” things in the hopes that a woman will grow attracted to them. They let the women control the frame in this case, and act like children trying to please their mother. This is always an attraction killer–it doesn’t matter if they’re a jerk or an alpha in every other aspect of their life. Lots of really tough dudes are complete wussies around women. 

It is truly one of the cosmic ironies of the universe that women should completely lack the capacity to truly appreciate the niceties of men – yet still perpetually claim to desire those niceties.

With the notable exceptions of natural born Alphas, I believe most men would overwhelmingly default to being compassionate, empathic souls, steeped in romantic notions of chivalry, dedication and honor. Whether this sentiment is the result of a genuine dedication to principle or inspired by a hope that women will appreciate his sacrifices to principle and reciprocate with her intimacy is really a Crisis of Motive.

That was really the gist of my question – are guys just playing nice to get laid or is “niceness” (for lack of a better term) something deep rooted that they have to necessarily repress in order to be taken seriously as a sexual competitor because women would despise him were he to be as ‘nice’ as he really has the capacity for.

Most guys make lame attempts to redefine raw, natural, Alpha masculinity to fit into accord with all these noble qualities. Tragically women and reality prove them wrong at virtually every instance, but their fallback denial is an easy one (ironically provided for them by the Feminine Imperative) – “those women who don’t appreciate your niceness are just Damaged Women®, no quality woman would value an asshole above a real Nice Guy.”

Men are simply never rewarded for displays of these higher-self aspirations with genuine appreciation of women. They certainly appreciate them on a by-need basis, and as a ‘value added‘ benefit, but the esoteric, self-actualizing concerns men believe women should prioritize as primarily attractive aspects of themselves are never what they hope women will appreciate. If anything overly ‘nice’ men are punished for it, either in the instance or progressively over time.

The only way to garner true appreciation, true valuation, truly inspired displays of affection, from women is to covertly imply the risk of losing a high-value Man. Whether the man is even truly of a higher value is irrelevant, only the perception needs to be reinforced for her. Risk of loss is all that factors. Risk of losing an investment in optimizing hypergamy is weighed against her own perceived sexual market value and the effort needed to reinvest in another, potentially higher SMV man. Risk of loss is why her imagination furiously spins the wheel in her head.

That sounds horrible, but the truth often is. Women’s lack of appreciation for the more compassionate natures of men, and their consuming regard for rewarding men that appease their hypergamy is so well proven it’s become predictable enough to develop techniques and behavioral modifications to exploit it (i.e. Game). Most guys would like nothing better than to honestly play the loving, white knight, romantic who women bemoan a lack of in the world. Yet for every sonnet composed, every provision met, every compliment delivered and every well planned candlelit dinner conversation, there’s a woman feverishly fucking her Alpha bad boy in his low rent apartment for fear of losing him to the competition.

Attraction and Arousal


Occasionally we return to a common theme of debate with self-proclaimed ‘red pill women’ in various manosphere comment threads about how women may be attracted to certain characteristics men would like to identify as being ‘nice’, but no woman is aroused sexually by these qualities. As I’ve argued in the past, attraction and arousal are two separate elements of hypergamy. Alpha Fucks is arousing, Beta Bucks is attractive.

A couch surfing Alpha will be arousing enough to bang women indiscriminately despite his impoverished condition. He has no relational equity, and so frustrates the efforts of men who believe that the definition of Alpha ought to be based on the equity they hope women will appreciate. Women will return (even if just mentally) to the callous or cavalier Alpha because he arouses her, but she will stay faithful to her well-providing husband because what he offers is attractive to her.

This is why I say, by and large, women love most men for what they represent – once they cease to represent that, once they stumble in maintaining that, hypergamy is free to run. On a personal level this may be you losing a job or how you failed a shit test, on a meta scale it may be women’s social capacity to provide for themselves.

A lot of guys get lost in these definitions. They believe a woman at her word in what she finds attractive in a man, but then conflate this list of qualities (read any woman’s online dating profile) with what a woman finds arousing. While there may be attraction without arousal, there is never arousal by way of what makes a man attractive. Your respectability, sterling character and being good with kids doesn’t make you look any better when your shirt comes off.

The New Nice

There’s an interesting social convention that’s developed as Game-awareness has become more widespread. As with all social conventions it provides a convenient rationale for women to cling to in order to alleviate uncomfortable truths, but the dilemma of the Faux-Nice Guy has picked up a lot of steam in the feminist / feminine-primary set of women. I covered this a while back in Play Nice, but since then I’ve been reading more about how this convention is dovetailing into the re-imagining of a so called Rape Culture.

As women become more aware of Game (even if just peripherally) there’s developed a convenient distrust of men’s ‘Nice’ qualities. The dynamics I put forth in The Savior Schema all become suspect for what in essence is really a tit for tat exchange of services rendered for intimacy at a later date (once his niceties have proven his worth).

The problem with this is twofold, first, the guy’s relying on Beta Game, convinced that what women say they are attracted to is what they are also aroused by, believe that faux Nice Guys are blowing their chances with the women they believe will eventually come to love them for their earnest Niceness. If all these charlatan Nice Guys are jading their pool of prospective nice-appreciating women it ruins their Game. Consequently they get agitated by women doubting any man’s sincerity and by extension their own. This then leads to Nice Guy infighting and greater, more sincere displays of a Niceness that really only ruins their Game that much more.

Second, women’s doubt of a Nice Guy’s sincerity and unsolicited ‘niceness’ is really a red herring meant to distract men employing Nice Guy Game away from the point that they simply don’t find them all that attractive (and certainly not arousing). Being nice, supportive, dutiful and possessing all the intrinsic characteristics on her list of attractive traits in the hope of proving his worth and qualifying for her intimate acceptance is really one long Appeal to a Woman’s Reason. It’s very convenient for a woman to enjoy (and often become dependent upon) the services a Nice Guy renders to her, but when that Nice Guy is discovered to have a sexual interest in her the “you weren’t really nice, you just expected something sexual in return” social convention finds its use.

Women have been aware of this Nice Guy Game, prequalification schema for generations, because it used to actually work in a time and culture where the Beta Bucks / parental investment side of women’s hypergamy was the predominant factor for determining of a man’s intimate acceptability. The problem now is that the deductive reasoning men use – find out what women want in order to become intimate, become it and solve the problem – in order to achieve a woman’s intimacy comes from an old set of books that no woman is still using. However the reliance on the responsibilities outlined in that first set of books are still useful when it comes to control the intents and actions of men.

Chivalry is an anachronism in a post-feminist society, particularly where equalism is concerned, but it’s a liability when it’s useful to the feminine imperative. It may be a man’s duty not to expect sex in exchange for his niceties and services, but when his chivalry is useful to her then it becomes his responsibility.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] The ‘Real’ Nice […]

jf12
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Rollo, thanks for a great post covering all the important points, but I’m pressed for time today so just one quick observation. Since Jerk game is so much more successful, objectively, with women, it’s interesting that women play up the ineffectiveness of Nice game so much so that “Nice guys are the real Jerks” is what women believe. Clearly, women admit being turned off by Nice, but refuse to admit being turned on by Jerk. But I must disagee that women aren’t DamagedWomen. Indeed, “It is truly one of the cosmic ironies of the universe that women should completely lack… Read more »

Aurum Magno
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I’m nice to every girl that I know and this always helped me to improve my social image, I’m a real liferuler, born to rule and conquer and to party. I’m good because I dont see any reason to be bad or to treat others bad without they show some bad sign. But I’m a alpha in the smv market, I’m atletic/muscular, tall, rich ( in comparison to the average guys of mine social circle), good looking, popular and easygoing. Mine coolness and act of being nice it’s a feature that put me in the front of all the other… Read more »

Nick
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You knocked it out of the park with this one Rollo. I was thinking of how I would have responded to this article pre-red pill. With opened eyes I see how “nice” really means weak and supplicating, while “jerk” and “asshole” is a blue-pill beta form of slut shaming. Betas try to disqualify guys who get laid just as women try to disqualify their peers for giving it up too easily and lowering the market value for tail. Guys don’t get laid a lot because they are mean to women, it’s because they put themselves and their desires first, always.… Read more »

foo
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foo
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WaterUnderTheFridge
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WaterUnderTheFridge
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A woman can get on board easily with the idea of nice guys actually being jerks because it preserves self image. If a woman doesn’t value men who will treat her well, and even goes so far as to take advantage of their niceness then she is unwise, and indeed a bad person.

One swift movement solves that problem. Believe nice guys are wicked schemers. It ain’t hard. Humans excel at believing what they would prefer to believe, especially women.

DoucheBag DeLuxe
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Some guy posted this on CH very recently. Rise of the ‘rinsers’: Meet the women trawling the internet for rich men to fund their extravagant lifestyles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgC9Z3uzPgY

Quite apropos.

Xman
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Xman
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I’ll quote Krauser on K-selected signals “Almost every daygamer wants to be the Nice Guy. He’s absorbed too many Disney fairytales and has turned to daygame to get the Good Girls and not those Nightclub Sluts. He’s kidding himself. The sexual market rules are always in effect. It’s always a darwinistic fight whether on the club or on the streets, and the girls are operating according to the same mating schema. Daygame is to nightgame what tennis is to squash – useless ill-coordinated slobs are going to fail in both sports. Daygame fools you into thinking you’re not in competition… Read more »

Softek
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The giver should be thankful. If you do a favor for someone — anyone — do it without expecting anything in return. Do it simply because you want to do it and because you’ll be glad to help the person. This is for your own benefit. When you expect something in return for doing favors, you set yourself up for resentment and disappointment. Only do favors for people when you’ve fully accepted in your mind that doing the favor itself is your reward. That way you also won’t give more than you really want to and will respect your own… Read more »

The Ronin
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I’ve been watching this whole dumping on “Nice Guys” for a couple of years now on dating sites and have come to the conclusion it is just another hamsterbastion. Women realize that yes, the characteristics of a “Nice Guy” are something they should be attracted to, but as they are not they have to justify it somehow and place the blame elsewhere. It hasn’t been since the advent of the internet that men have had the opportunity to compare notes about female behavoir on a grand scale and effectively call women out in a united front. Women hate nothing worse… Read more »

Badpainter
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Seems to me modern women can’t/won’t make a distinction between guys like Wally Cleaver and Eddie Haskell. The confusion for men is we have no problem seeing the difference.
Sadly in world today Wally is an SMP loser and Eddie a winner until his reputation as asshole in nice guy clothing becomes well known. By the time that happens Eddie has preselection working in his favor. Wally’s beta game hurts his preselection because he is not closing.

Be Swift, Be Precise
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Hope this isn’t seen as too far off point, but old movies show a lot of this stuff at work. You see a lot of this nice guy and women’s hypergamy at play in “The Quiet Man.” It is really the struggle of a man to balance his nice with his alpha.

During the middle of the movie, where he is being the nice boy, his wife asks one of his friend:

“What kind of a man have I married?”

To which the friend replies:

“A better one than you know, Mary Kate.”

Interesting truth that other guys appreciate a guys niceness, not the girl.

Softek
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This one’s from 1932. Nothing new here. It does lighten the mood a little though.

“When a woman says she loves you
‘Bout good as she do herself
I don’t pay her no attention
Tell that same lie to somebody else

I really don’t believe
No woman in the whole round world do right
Act like an angel in the daytime, mess by ditch at night”

caprizchka
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I think that some versions of “nice” in a guy engage a woman’s maternal instincts–and most women’s maternal instincts are hardwired separate from sexual instincts–the “sane” ones that is. I’ve known self-actualized Dominant women who don’t seem to have much of any actual sex drive but they’ll give it out as a “reward” for nice, that is *obedience*.

theshadowedknight
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Answering your question, yes, I would be a nicer man. Why be an asshole to women if I do not have to in order to get what I want? I am not an asshole to men, because I can get what I want from them without it. I would prefer to have a mutual respect and trust with women, the way I do with men. Many men act the way they do out of their own sense of solipsism. If a man or a group of men treated another man the way women treat him, there would be a fight… Read more »

Chokmah
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@Rollo: Tragically women and reality prove them wrong at virtually every instance, but their fallback denial is an easy one (ironically provided for them by the Feminine Imperative) – “those women who don’t appreciate your niceness are just Damaged Women®, no quality woman would value an asshole above a real Nice Guy.” I think the real crisis guys goes through is not really a crisis of motive, but mostly a crisis of realizing they have little sexual value to women. And also the inability to realize that most women are just not attracted to them. I do think that trying… Read more »

The Ronin
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Chokmah , the manosphere covers a lot of ground and the better blogs reccomend self improvement for it’s own sake rather than just pandering to whatever turns women on. If anything most simply pull down the pedestal society has put women on and expose “Love” for what it really is, a biological event driven by hormones. As far as game goes, it’s been going since Eve put on clothes.

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[…] The ‘Real’ Nice (The Rational Male) […]

BC
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The theory posts are fascinating, but these application posts make for a nice break. IMO the two money paragraphs are: The only way to garner true appreciation, true valuation, truly inspired displays of affection, from women is to covertly imply the risk of losing a high-value Man. Whether the man is even truly of a higher value is irrelevant, only the perception needs to be reinforced for her. Risk of loss is all that factors. Risk of losing an investment in optimizing hypergamy is weighed against her own perceived sexual market value and the effort needed to reinvest in another,… Read more »

sup5222
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“I was thinking of how I would have responded to this article pre-red pill. With opened eyes I see how “nice” really means weak and supplicating, while “jerk” and “asshole” is a blue-pill beta form of slut shaming. Betas try to disqualify guys who get laid just as women try to disqualify their peers for giving it up too easily and lowering the market value for tail.”

It’s not that beta men are intentionally supplicating, it’s that they don’t know any better. They have a false understanding of the world and often times no insight into their own unattractive characteristics.

SomeTardWithNumbers
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I was spinning a plate for a good six months, catching up every week or two for “bedroom acrobatics”, always based on whether I was free or not. She did all the chasing. She would text me all the time with youtube clips, comments about her life, stories about her day that I couldn’t care less about. Pre-Red Pill, I would have watched every one of those clips and made sure I replied to every message she sent me, to show her that “I cared”. God forbid that I would ever ignore a text message, that would after all make… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
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@jf12 – damaged, or simply exceptionally good at lying and dissimilating? I believe that Rollo had a post some time ago about that.

Ceniek
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Going practical.
If I cannot use logic nor follow my instincts because both will fail – what remains ?
I see only Game – not give a f*ck about fidelity which looks like BS, spin plates and not worry too much about women’s feelings.
It almost sums up to:
Either you kick or you are kicked.

What do I miss ?

gregg
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Women NEED nice guys, they desperately need them. In order to enter into marriade and father children with her, sacrifice you time/work for her well-being, you have to be ultimately “nice”… Otherwise you just will not do it!! Therefore we have this trait so widespread among men. It is necessary for women… Every married man is ultimately “nice guy”. Marriage is sacrifice and in order to do that you have to believe in some goodness, realtionship equity, soul mates, etc. In that respect, the bad boys are wise – they are giving women their body and not their soul. They… Read more »

Badpainter
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In light of this post I find myself asking again what exactly it is that women uniquely provide to men other than sex? Rollo has suggest previously that there is a beneficial aspect to a woman’s opportunistic style of love. What are the benefits beyond sexual access? Beneficial to whom? What I see is that a woman’s love is the gift that never stops taking until there is nothing left to take. Of course there’s a NAWALT within but when most women operate this way does that make any difference as a practical matter? Much of the manosphere pushes the… Read more »

blurkel
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“…a woman feverishly fucking her Alpha bad boy in his low rent apartment for fear of losing him to the competition….” If any man were to honestly evaluate his relations with women, he’d see that he’s considered to be her property, and any hot sex she offers is a desperate attempt to reclaim ownership. I have experienced this myself more than once, and platonic women friends all reported a night of hot sex no more than a week before the divorce erupted. Thus, sex from a woman is not an honest expression of affection or desire. It is an attempt… Read more »

gregg
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@ badpainter Of course, when you take away the concept of soul myths, relationship equity, loyalty…we have to ask ourselves, what is the purpose/incentive to built any kind of long term realtionship with women. This is the inevitable question. We can blabb about the new, helathy perspective. However, it is clear that if she is disloyal, opportunistic creature, you simply can not win, irrespective of the amount of game you are going to pull. Today you are ok, but tomorrow you can have a car accident, be fired from work, bad luck, etc….and you are fucked and robbed of your… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
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A bit like indifference versus provisioning last week; it is too easy for humans in general to get blinkered by absolute ‘truths’ like ‘all women prefer jerk game over nice guy game.’ It’s BS man. If we’re honest with ourselves, we are all nice guy providers at some point, even if we can’t admit it to other men, or even want to acknowledge it ourselves. The argument that hypergamy rules everything again is somewhat valid, but to a point. If a woman is bedded in such a manner that ultimately satiates her needs and by a man who is in… Read more »

Softek
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Risk of loss is what keeps beta men attracted to women. Having only one woman to go to for any kind of sexual contact or shred of intimacy keeps the desperation and dependency strong. Beta men have so much in common with women and their attraction to apex alphas, it isn’t even funny. And all those women who get slammed by the high alphas are the ones who keep saying “fuck men, all men are pigs….” and look at the parallel of anger, all the betas who get burned by ordinary women are the ones who keep saying “fuck women,… Read more »

walawala
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@softek I’ve thought this over considerably. The idea of being more of a “jerk” is a turn-off to SOME women…or initially they pretend it is…or they have so many orbiters that they write you off as punishment. But…as is becoming clear to me…the “scarcity” mentality is what fosters this “nice guy” mentality which is born out of a fear of loss. When is top fearing losing the gear, I act how I want…if I want to be nice I am, if I want to tease I tease. Self-awareness is key to this. Also the understanding that you have to be… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
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Binary decision-making, ones and zeros, application of one theory over many, A>B, B<A (OK, those last two are bad examples!); all are symptomatic of being continually soaked in the digital rain of the matrix.

Even in this Manosphere of relatively enlightened individuals, I still experience completely one/two-dimensional thinking every day.

jf12
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@Chokmah 9:22 pm. No.

jf12
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@Softek, “Beta men have so much in common with women and their attraction to apex alphas, it isn’t even funny.”

is correct. Hence,

“Alphas are alphas because they’re a higher pecking order than the betas.”

is incorrect. Alphas are a higher pecking order than women.

Chokmah
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@Chokmah 9:22 pm. No. Yes. The manosphere has turned game into a kind of religion and cult. It’s so lame and self-defeating: consulting with and agreeing with “manosphere” gods, without even making a pragmatic reality check of whether is being preached has any validity. Nitzsche: a big failure, suicided. Feel safe to steer away from any of his thinking. Esther Villar: a psychopath, mentally-ill first generation feminist: feel safe to stay clear of any of her thinking. Gloria Steinem: psychopath and baby killer: feel safe as well staying clear of her. Mystery: a clown, transexual or what? Definitely not a… Read more »

jf12
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@Badpainter re: “How is game not to be argued as a form of caving to the demands of the FI?” This higher-order question is defeatist, akin to asking “Why bother breathing, since we’re doomed to be worm fodder anyway?” The primary answer is utility. Game works, empirically. It works for the men’s purposes to give Game to women *because* of the demands of the FI. I’ll take Game here to mean techniques by which a man who is not successful with women can become more successful by imitating what works for Naturals. The larger answer requires some recapitulation of the… Read more »

MikePhil
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Wow, this post is straight-up solid gold, one of the best I’ve read on RM. So much to respond to. First, remove the word “nice” from your vocabulary, mindset and behavior. Appeasement never gained anything in this world; just go to any schoolyard and see the social dynamics playing out between bully and prey. There’s a big difference between playing magnanimous and being it; one comes from a desperate need to lock up your only option, the other comes from abundance. We communicate more than we know and women are shrewd observers of behavior and body cues; when you give… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
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“But don’t take anything I am stating personally, enjoy your “neurotic suspension” impotency and paralysis, and when in doubt, consult with the manosphere oracle and it will give you an answer for your life. Fare well.” I think you will find many men in the Manosphere who have benefitted greatly from the material provided by the ‘Gods’; myself included. Though I do not automatically agree with every thing that is peddled our way (as demonstrated herein, I am personally very grateful for the advise an material produced (free-of-charge) as, at least during my formative years, I was almost completely void… Read more »

The Burninator
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Nice guys, nice game, nice schmice. Here are the fruits of being nice:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/but-if-we-started-dating-it-would-ruin-our-friends,11473/

Truth always comes first disguised as humor.

Vektor
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Many women have turned the term “nice guy” into a derogatory term to let themselves off the guilt hook for LJBF these guys and taking advantage of them. If “nice guys” aren’t really “nice” then it’s ok to take advantage of them. Because these men are just being “nice” because they want sex. No shit ladies!! ALL men, with the exception of gay men, want sex from women. WTF else do women have to offer? Women are are lying if they claim they didn’t know this already. I consider the current definition of “nice guy” as being gullible, selfless, giving,… Read more »

kfg
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” How many strings you have to your bow ultimately dictates your success. . . ”

. . . assuming one has sufficient skill with the tool to place an arrow.

Badpainter
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Jf12,

I get it. I do. Really.

My question is more about if I have to change my basic nature what other than pussy am I getting on return?

If the only guarantee is easier pussy than I prefer to go Jekyll and Hyde route of nice guy in player clothes. One thing’s for sure though; the indifference I have toward an ONS is genuine, just lack like my complete lack of respect.

Tilikum
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chokmah @8:48. he already said no. i came to the realization long ago that when most people like yourself are faced with the inevitable nihilistic or existential crisis that ineffable truths like these bring, you really have no choice but to fight them. with an identity and an ego so invested in the hope and skewed reality that you and your life have some larger tribal value. it does not. you are worthless. have no value to anyone else on this planet save “maybe” your parents and even that is quite conditional as you are likely a reflection of their… Read more »

Tilikum
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“Your respectability, sterling character and being good with kids doesn’t make you look any better when your shirt comes off.”

this is a keeper.

Mark Minter
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I don’t know where you guys get off with this Nice guy discussion. You obviously have not gotten the memo … or a clue. Your world has moved into an entirely new form of social organization that is in the process of becoming formalized and institutionalized. Already there is already sufficient social, civil, criminal, and financial regulation to make this social organization de facto and de jure and movements are underfoot to institutionalize, culturalize, and formalize the new form of organization. Yet, it seems the vast majority of you insist on living in the past with some deluded notion of… Read more »

cryo
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“i came to the realization long ago that when most people like yourself are faced with the inevitable nihilistic or existential crisis that ineffable truths like these bring, you really have no choice but to fight them. with an identity and an ego so invested in the hope and skewed reality that you and your life have some larger tribal value. it does not. you are worthless. have no value to anyone else on this planet save “maybe” your parents and even that is quite conditional as you are likely a reflection of their ability to raise you and the… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
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@ Mark, “Deferent, not nice. Get it?”

Splitting hairs here possibly. You say deferent, some say ‘nice guy with bollocks’. Same difference.

Interesting piece about Eusocialism though. Ironic that the male of the species is most scarce, yet they are not the ones provided for.

jf12
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@MikePhil, great example “I wish I could find a guy just like you.” is probably the single best example of the precise way in which damaged women think.

jf12
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jf12
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@Badpainter re: basic nature. I think the redpill does change a man. Roughly speaking, though, it primarily removes naivete and excuses for why what “should” work with women, i.e. being nice, does not work. The problem in recognizing that being nice doesn’t work is that, assuming what you really mean by “basic nature” is wanting a nice girl, is that it removes you being nice from consideration as an effective filter for getting a nice girl. The point is, it WASN’T effective even prior to the red pill. So, now, you’re wondering if you really want the kinds of women… Read more »

gregg
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@ chokmah While I do not agree with idealization of manosphere and I honestly think that most “gurus”, be it Jefferies, T.D, Roissy, etc., are really poor, poor fellas…certainly nothing to emulate….I deeply appreciate blogs like theese..and I salute to their authors. I witnessed hundreds of destroyed and ass-raped betas in divorce courts, couple of suicide attempts from my clients.. Many of our brothers could have been saved by …. honest INFORMATIONS about female nature. Unfortunately, it is too late for them, we can not help those “casulaties” but we CAN save young men..while it is ultimately up to them… Read more »

Steve H
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Perhaps the question is ‘what do WE want’. What does the male imperative want? -Do we men like it that every time we get into a cab in a new city, the (male) cab driver is going to rip us off?. MI-argument for honesty/honor. -Do we men like taking our women out on the town, planning a classy date at an upscale restaurant followed by the late show at a jazz club? MI-argument for romanticism. -Do we men value having other men taking us seriously via keeping our word? That when we tell another man something, they can take that… Read more »

Chokmah
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I owe the older men here and those in other other places a debt of gratitude for sharing their own experiences and reassuring me that I am not a complete failure with women, as well as at life in general. So do I. But that’s not the point. The point is that “game” is not a panacea for male suffering, or the cure to “Eusocialism” as Marks puts it. As I view it, it’s akin to superstitions in the USSR. Communism abolished religion and people quickly adopted a lot of superstitions. They would be better off living like monks. …you… Read more »

Tilikum
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Rollo to your point, Had dinner with an uncle last night. Late 40’s, Serious natural, but after his second divorce/farm animal experience, he came to me for the medicine. After seeing the (cute/mean is how my 9yo calls the way he treats girls) way I treat the several “good girls/keepers” he has met that I refuse to address as more than friends, the cognitive lock it gave him was savage but to his credit he pushed through. Six months, more than a few successes for him, and lo and behold last night I met Farmer Jill. After a few weeks,… Read more »

Chokmah
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If the manosphere is a cult or religion, what is the operative condition it exists in? You’d better off writing a book about what “game” is per your definition, because certainly for me “game” is your “normal” and your religion. I bet you can hardly define what “game” is. That’s the problem with much of the manosphere. Most of the manosphere defers everything to “game”: game is the answer, game is the solution, game will save marriage, game will give you the girl of your dreams, etc. I would welcome instead a series about what “game” is. Nothing to object… Read more »

Vektor
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Vektor
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I view the manosphere as a place to find answers to important questions. Guidance. Even therapy for some. There is so much misinformation and manipulation in the blue-pill world. Ignorance is so dangerous it can ruin you life, and the lives of your children. The manosphere exists because it needs to exist. The “nice guy” needs red-pill awareness. ‘Nice guys finish last’….nice guys don’t finish “nice”. Perhaps they learn and become “bad boys” that attract women, but probably just as common they become “angry guys” that women should rightly be afraid of. Misogynists are not born, they are created. Knowledge… Read more »

jf12
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re: the “real” attractive. Rhetorical question for those who think a man is betraying himself by behaving in ways which work better with women: Is a woman who wants a man betraying herself by trying to act more feminine than she “normally” would?

kfg
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“I think the fact that Nietzshce suicided has great toll on the validity of all his philosophy and reasoning. ”

Nietzsche was an anti-nihilist who died of the last of a series of strokes that left him physically unable to commit suicide before the ultimate stroke.

I think your premises being fabrications has a negative impact upon the validity of your conclusion.

Tilikum
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reading Chokmah’s comments is like reading any Feminist or feminized argument.

starts with a pithy yet esoteric handle that reinforces the posters ego position of either a. extreme perceived intelligence or b. a perceived enhanced understanding

then it goes like this….

fact
fact
reframe
appeal to authority
quote thought leader
another reframe
fact(loose)

all thats left is to jump behind
“don’t hit me i’m a girl”

lol! wink

Badpainter
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jf12, I never assumed this new awareness would change the nature of women. For me the Redpill merely confirms what I suspected all along. I suspected the problem was me both in terms of behavior and in terms of understanding. So it did change me; from a hopeful sceptic to a proud cynic. But what am I “up selecting for?” Perhaps it’s laziness but I just don’t see the point in making the effort to be worthy of a woman’s “opportunistic love.” How does that benefit me? Near as I can tell it doesn’t. I get the idea that to… Read more »

Tilikum
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good point but its still early on the West Coast

jf12
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@Badpainter, “It’s like liver.”

In more ways than one. And it’s good for you!

Softek
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The manosphere stirs up stuff inside of you. That’s why everyone gets upset about it. It’s just like anything else in life. If someone says something to you, whatever you feel is your reaction to it. Who’s doing it to you? You are. If we were really sure of ourselves and our views, we wouldn’t be stirred up. We’d just kind of laugh and shake our head. These are all just words on a page. We have a reaction and then completely blame the reaction on the words, as if there’s no separation between our reaction and the words. Our… Read more »

Badpainter
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jf12,

How is it “good for me?” Not the liver, the other thing.

I might be compelled to eat liver if it cured cancer, and caused me to crap gold nuggets.

scratche2013
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Why are some of you so down on Nietzsche just because he committed suicide? You say he is a failure; everyone dies, he took control of his own death. The fact that his work lives on makes him closer to immortality than most will ever achieve. Disregarding everything a person has done simply because of the way they died is pretty damn stupid and shallow.

Chokmah
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…You’d be wrong, and it is in the book… http://therationalmale.com/2013/04/19/the-evolution-of-game/ I don’t think so. In the referenced article you refer to Game, with capitals, about 90 times, in the third person. There is no reference about what “game” is for you, or you have “game” for that matter. Game, with “G”, is your religion. You believe and revere “Game”, even though you cannot define what it is for you (even though towards the end you converge towards a vision of “emancipation” of feminine imperative through awareness of what the feminine imperative is, which actually is more in line with my… Read more »

Steve H
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“Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better.” – Albert Camus

Story of my life, and best response to Mark’s accurate deconstruction of the official Cathedral memo.

-Put yourself first
-Create abundance in all areas of life
-Give help and inspire others when you can
-Become the best version of ‘you’ that you can possibly be

All answers to ‘the Memo’. And Mark – if that was an earnest passing shot at MGTOWs in the middle – this answers that as well. It doesn’t matter who ‘sent us our own way’, it just matters that we create a great life in spite of it.

jf12
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Re: vitamin V. It’s good for your testosterone levels, and focus.

kfg
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kfg
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“I might be compelled to eat liver if it cured cancer . . .” Now see, here’s a good example of how personal outlook can lead to a difference in personal style; I prefer to prevent cancer. If you haven’t done so, try a bit of calf’s liver. More expensive than beef liver, but nowhere near as “livery.” Only a few ounces a week is ample. A few ounces a month is adequate. It be powerful stuff. You need to eat something else entirely to crap gold nuggets, but really, all you’ll do is take all the fun out of… Read more »

Kate
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Kate
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Who’s up for a song?

“Those rapey eyes
Will make you weep
You’ll cry and cry
And try to sleep
But sleep won’t come
The whole night through
Those rapey eyes will tell on you…”

smile

The words “nice,” “jerk,” “alpha,” and “beta” don’t really capture what it is women want. They want “cool,” as in unflappable, steady, and laid back. They do not want nervous, emotional, or eager.

jf12
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j/k font on
Re: “At its root level Game is a series of behavioral modifications to life skills based on psychological and sociological principles to facilitate intersexual relations between genders.”

Yeah, but besides that and anything else like that, there is no reference to what “Game” means to you or to anyone else. In fact, setting your definition aside, I’m therefore free to decide that what you mean by Game is stuff you do in order to make intersexual relations more difficult.
j/k font off

Badpainter
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kfg,

Well I suppose with enough garlic, Cajun seasoning, and onions I could choke down liver as part of a stew. But the foul stink of raw liver, I shudder at the thought of dealing with the prep.

jf12,

Sure vitamin V. I acknowledge the value. But that alone doesn’t explain the benefit of keeping the W around in between doses. Or is that the benefit?

TheMonkeyKing
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With due respect Chokmah you come across as the kind of person who still views your democratic vote as contributing to a so-called democracy, a conspiracy theory denier who believes that such theories are the psychedelic daydreams of tin-foil hat wearing hippies, one who believes the ‘war on terror’ wasn’t just another exercise in mass-population control, as someone who believes that Christianity, Islam and Judaism are religions derived from different original scripture. If you want to bash people round the head with your accusations of cult movements, I would suggest you look more closely at the practice of the dark… Read more »

Steve H
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The dissent is necessary to prevent boring echo chamber stupor. Dr. Phil wasn’t the first one to assume the M.O. ‘project certainty at all costs, irrespective of how full of shit you may be’. This is a faux-alpha credo that must always be challenged. Remember – Strauss finished up ‘The Game’ by boldly declaring that he was done ‘playing the game’, because Lisa was The One. With his singular, new-found, superior wisdom – the wisdom which conferred his authoritative status upon this seminal tome – he just knew. And the PUA community just bought it. And he and Lisa were… Read more »

Tilikum
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@ Chokmah human self reflection is really tough. maybe the hardest thing a human being can do. the only thing I want to defend is you, providing you are male (and I wonder based on your intense desire to frame when fact isn’t available), your ability to exist as an independent person with your own emotional matrix. if that means MGTOW, Player, Incel Jedi Master, whatever you got going on over there, just live your own life, by your rules. But I walk the walk, so if I bang your sister/GF/wife/current one-itis while you are still stuck in some wacky… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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Steve H “-Do we men like it that every time we get into a cab in a new city, the (male) cab driver is going to rip us off?. MI-argument for honesty/honor.” Well nearly all thieves (and other criminals) are male, as the femorrhoids constantly remind us. Some of them even have cabby licenses. Or police uniforms and badges, etc. etc. That’s why I tote around a cheapo Garmin satnav, not much bigger than a pack of cigs, tracking the whole trip if in doubt. And have the sound turned up to eleven, if I suspect that matey might be… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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Badpainter, my old flatmate used to have the same problem with liver. Even though he needed it (inadequate diet (we were horribly poor) and some childhood affliction which meant they had had to chop his spleen out so his guts were a bit fucked all the time). Solution. Cut into smallish squares, fry the living heck out of it on a metric fuckton of prebrowned sliced onions, and then dump a jar of vindaloo paste (or other subcontinental noocular waste of your choice) on it, hoy in a cup of water and simmer forever, then introduce it to the rice/chapatis… Read more »

MikePhil
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To take this back to the original topic, I think Rollo’s suggesting something that’s really profound. It took me a while to fully absorb the concept before I got it. I remember reading somewhere that the true definition of hell is the distance between what we want to the world to be, and the reality of what the world actually is. I spent most of my life there, getting the wind knocked out of me on a regular basis like Charlie Brown and his endless efforts to kick the football. But I never doubted that the flowers,cards and romantic dinners… Read more »

862sphinx@gmail.com
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862sphinx@gmail.com
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Great retort Steve H

Chokmah
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Chokmah
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….explain you theory behind that, Chokmah dude.

No, theory, dude. If you have to find your own answers and make your own decisions.

Chokmah
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@Tilikum: It seems that your master Rollo had presciently prophesied about you: “Remember that the world, and many female bloggers with chips on their shoulders, hated me; and they will also hate you. If you suffer for Game’s sake, remember that I am with you. And remember that neither shit tests, nor breakups, nor flaking, nor snowflaking, nor batshit crazy, can ever keep you from your confident and dominant frames. “But you have seen that which I have done, and read the words I have written unto you and given unto you. And I tell you that these and greater… Read more »

Tilikum
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@Chokmah

please try and figure out how to feel complete. i always feel bad for the most horrid of wretches.

be well.

anoneemus
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Rollo – don’t know where else to send this: I notice you seem to be developing a lifecycle view of women. Curious if you have integrated Louann Brizendine’s “The Female Brain” into your understanding of their hormonal drives, particularly as some drives fall off after their cycle goes away. In particular – I know many post-menopausal women who are surfing the wave of freedom they feel of no longer being (as) driven to partner. Enough women have confirmed this with me that I commend the book to any male with a pre-menipausal woman to manage through the transition. Good luck.… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
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Man….. I give up with this guy…..

You can lead a horse to water, an’ all that.

Bellum
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Bellum
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Ten years ago I had no control over my relationship. Everything romantic and chivalrous I did was because I quivered in fear. She left me, and my fear turned to anger, my anger turned to hatred, and I turned to the Dark Side. Did I have more succes with women? Yes, but only because my loss gave me a drive I never had before. Did I feel good? Hardly, I had lost myself. It took me a long time to admit that what I really want is to treat a woman like a princess, and even longer to gather the… Read more »

jf12
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@Bellum, I agree, but, the universe doesn’t care. As I said upstream, you aren’t selecting for women who want nice when you drive women away by treating them nice.

cryo
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cryo
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^^^^^^ feminist mole

The Ronin
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The Ronin
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anoneemus , I found “The Female Brain” about six months after my X went BSC at 45. It’s a good read and based on my experince does explain what’s going on in a woman’s brain, especially when she hits peri -menopause. In retrospect I don’t think it would have helped me to save our marriage, even if I’d read it even a couple of years before mine left. Of the many accounts I’ve read about women going through this in “Women’s Only” menopause forums, they often go from “My husband’s been very understanding of my bitchy behavoir and hot flashes”… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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I don’t mind. Mole liver tastes pretty much the same as any other I guess.

Bellum
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Bellum
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@ jf12.
That’s just it, being nice doesn’t drive them away: it’s neutral when it comes to arousal. That’s a world of difference, as it opens up strategies that allow for being ‘nice’ by obtaining arousal through other means than being a jerk.
For LTRs, where a woman’s need for Beta provisioning and security has to be met, this is crucial.

jf12
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@Bellum, the friendzone close is not neutral.

The Ronin
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Bellum, having gone through repeating cycles of this my whole life I can only conclude that it’s always going to be a “Push Pull” Game in a LTR. The problem is it’s rare to get a shot of generating a tingle by being “Nice” in the beginning. Once in the friend zone at best you become a spare tire that rarely if ever makes it out of the trunk until the car’s got a lot of mileage on it.

Tilikum
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“Once in the friend zone at best you become a spare tire that rarely if ever makes it out of the trunk until the car’s got a lot of mileage on it.”

damn. thats good.

Scott
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Scott
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On a personal level, I like being the nice guy. I enjoy being compassionate, empathetic, and genuine. But I don’t kid myself that this is what makes me attractive to women. I enjoy being nice, compassionate, empathetic and genuine to unavailable women (i.e., married women), or single women I’m not particularly interested in sexually or romantically. It satisfies the part of me that enjoys being the nice guy. As for the women I’m actually interested in, I know better than to believe that they are attracted to my niceness. In my workplace, or in social settings, I am naturally dominant.… Read more »

DeNihilist
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“A lot of guys get lost in these definitions. They believe a woman at her word in what she finds attractive in a man, but then conflate this list of qualities (read any woman’s online dating profile) with what a woman finds arousing. While there may be attraction without arousal, there is never arousal by way of what makes a man attractive. Your respectability, sterling character and being good with kids doesn’t make you look any better when your shirt comes off.” So true! Signed up at Ashley Madison a while ago, I would venture that close to 40 to… Read more »

Softek
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I’m having a lot less cognitive dissonance lately after I just got indirectly shut down again by a long-term interest I’ve had (started talking about a guy she’s banging that I didn’t know about — that cleared up the picture pretty quickly). Kind of want to kick myself, but…not going to. It’s a learning process. I’ll tell you where the friendzone is: it’s in your head. You want to believe that something is going to happen with a girl and that you’ve got your foot in the door because you’ve always been there for her for so long, and you… Read more »

jf12
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@Softek, great reminder of need for vigilant self-awareness. “I have not been able to do it yet because when I am sexually attracted to a girl I go into the “Romance Trance.”” LOL

Yes, the tendency to oneitis is hard to shake, if it ever was there in the first place. It seems the main cure is to spin plates as best you can.

Steve H
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Steve H
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Softek – inner work solution to this issue:

There do not exist women who merit ‘WOW she’s so f*cking hot’.

There are only women you might be interested in hooking up with, who you might allow to hook up with you.

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