Purgatory

purgatoryheader1

I’m going to apologize in advance to commenter Softek (hopefully you’re cool with my posting this), but his comment from The Real Nice was exactly what I was digging into this morning:

I’ll tell you where the friendzone is: it’s in your head. You want to believe that something is going to happen with a girl and that you’ve got your foot in the door because you’ve always been there for her for so long, and you always have “so much fun” when you hang out, they like you, they tell you they enjoy spending time with you.

Yeah…no.

Rollo’s said if a woman’s interested in you, she won’t confuse you.

A girl that I was not interested in was interested in me. That girl let me know she was interested in me because while we were hanging out she initiated physical contact herself, I just went along with it, and next thing I know I’m on my back and she’s pulling my boxers down and sucking my dick.

After she swallowed I figured out, “Oh. She must be interested in me. Okay.” For real. That oblivious.

And that was the second day we were hanging out. I’d never met her or hung out with her before. We’re talking 0 to 60, although in her mind when we started hanging out I guess she was already going 60. She did not tell me she liked me or cared about me or wanted to be with me. What she “said” was ask if I wanted her to go down on me, and then she did.

Night and day. I’ve known other girls for years and years and spent so much time with them and never saw one iota of pussy, and only on a couple of occasions got a hug. Nothing was ever going to happen. And I was in the friendzone in my mind. I’d spend all my time there wishing and hoping and never realized how short I was selling myself and how by being the pursuer, I’d already lost.

If you’re waiting for something to develop, you’re already fucked. I learned that one after reflecting on that experience with that other girl. That was the first time in my life any girl showed sexual interest in me — and it was very, very clear. She was the one throwing herself at me. And when she did and I just soaked it all up she was very happy about that and it was just this torrential downpour of praise and compliments and how great I was and everything inbetween.

I haven’t had a lot of experience, but the little I have had has shown me the difference between pursuing a girl who may or may not be interested in you eventually, and one who absolutely, unequivocally is. It is night and day. There’s no mistaking it.

We’re not being nice to ourselves and loving ourselves when we willingly stay in the friendzone in our minds — wishing and hoping and fantasizing. A girl who’s interested will give you so much more, and she’ll give it at the drop of a hat.

I’ve done posts in the past about the utility LJBF rejections mean to women, men’s Beta Game tactics of Playing Friends in the hopes of qualifying for a woman’s intimacy at a later date, and how men and women differ in their approaches to friendship based on their same-sex friendships. In all of these I brush a bit into the concept of the “friend zone” and how it’s really men who put themselves (usually willingly) in this state:

Men get a LJBF rejection because of a process. These are the “friends first” mindset guys; the guys who put far too much emphasis on a solitary woman and wait her out until the perfect moment to attempt to escalate to intimacy, at which point her most comfortable rejection (Buffer) is to LJBF. This is made all the more easy for her because of the process the guy used to get to that point.

[…] Get it out of your head now that you’re even in a so called “friend zone” with any woman. There is no friend zone – there is only the limbo between you being fooled that a girl is actually a friend on an equitable level to your same sex friends, and you understanding that as soon as she becomes intimate with another guy your attentions will become a liability to any relationship she might want to have with the new sexual interest and she puts you off, or you do the same when you become so involved with another girl.

I probably could have mentioned this in The Real Nice post, but I’m noticing a social trend from overly ’empowered’ women in not simply rejecting the concept of the ‘friend zone’, but outright hostility towards the men who insist they’re forced into it. Women are angry about men complaining about the friend zone.

Neo-feminism HATES the idea of the friend zone for the same reasons it hates Faux-Nice Guys; there’s an implied state of exchange. They hate the reciprocal part of the Savior Schema because it’s considered one degree away from rape.

Nothing upsets the feminine-primary balance of sexual selectivity and betrays the secret mechanics of women’s need to optimize hypergamy than having a man overtly expose the transactional side of women’s sexual strategy. The side that puts him into a friend zone purgatory for being a ‘tryer’ when it comes to sex, but her need for his trying hasn’t reached a critical point.

This is what the friend zone does; it makes a man simultaneously responsible for, and accountable to, his want for sex by attempting to qualify for it with a woman. The friend zone is a Beta man’s punishment for expecting to be entitled to the rewards reserved for an Alpha. The Alpha doesn’t qualify himself for a woman’s intimacy, she qualifies for his sexual approval. And the longer you stay rapt by her in the friend zone the readier you’ll be when she needs your dutiful, sex-lured, providership.

If you want an example of the feminine imperative’s fluidly reinventing social conventions for itself look no further than how the concept of the ‘friend zone’ has evolved since the mid 90’s. In 1994 it was cute in an “Aww, hang in there fella, she’ll come around to loving you for who you are eventually (once she’s “grown” from the experiences of banging bad boys). In 2014 it’s  “Any guy who thinks he’s in the so called friend zone is just a potential rapist because he thinks he’s owed sex for his friendship.”

A Way Out of Hell

One of the most common questions you’ll read from desperate blue pill men, not just in the manosphere, but on damn near every dating forum, to Dear Abby, to AskMen is “How do I get out of the friendzone?” Type that question into a Google query and look at the number of returns you get. The question of course is usually followed by some plea for advice or a script to follow in order to finally get with the Girl of his Dreams®, and rationally and reasonably make her aware of how he measures up to everything on her ‘boyfriend list’.

If you want some actionable Game advice about the ‘friend zone’ here it is – leave it yourself!

Even if you think you have the best and noblest of intentions in your White Knight ‘friend zone’ status, the fact remains that women in general, and the woman you have set your noble intent upon, will consider your ‘friend zoning’ a prison of your own making – not theirs.

Even the most complicit or implicit woman in a guy’s ‘friend zoning’ will never accept the liability for placing him into that state, and even the most culpable woman in this will still resent him; not just for pointing out her own participation in it, but because it irrecoverably confirms him as being a Beta chump who would allow himself to participate in his own ‘friend zoning’.

If you believe you’re in some friend zone with a woman, never overtly admit to or complain about it with anyone, man or woman – you will only reaffirm your perception of being a necessitous Beta. Men will judge, women will talk, and your self-perception gets caught in a negative feedback loop.

Next, remember Iron Rule of Tomassi #7:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #7
It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. Never root through the trash once the garbage has been dragged to the curb. You get messy, your neighbors see you do it, and what you thought was worth digging for is never as valuable as you thought it was.

Your “friend zoning” is a failed relationship. Approach new women, develop new prospects. A Woman doesn’t want the ‘liability’ of implied sexual exchange (actual or imagined) for your friendship? Don’t give it her.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] Purgatory […]

scratche2013
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Understanding this a major breakthrough for young guys to make; allowing yourself to be through “friend zone” shit demonstrates a total lack of respect for yourself. Much better to accept the rejection and move on.

LiveFearless
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“How do I get out of the friendzone?” Type that question into a Google query and look at the number of returns you get.

And, when you do, add something like “Learn how at http://www.therationalmale.com by Rollo Tomassi” – Drive those ‘men’ here instead of the funded sites designed to cause them further damage.

Mack Bolan
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Mack Bolan
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This is also a breakthough to us older guys. I’ve always logically understood why the “friend zone” is bad but reading this article finally made sense for me on a visceral level.

Carlos
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Carlos
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One reason when you get put in the friend zone why you should “next” the girl and move on that you don’t mention is that it increases your value with other women. When other women see you refusing to accept being friend zoned, it increases your status with them. It also gives you more confidence and a feeling of higher intrinsic value in your dealings with women.

jf12
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What is it that women who do have a friendzoned man, or beta orbiter (these may be the same groupings in most dimensions), think that they as women are contributing to the man? Do the women think they really are as fun to be around as the man’s male friends? Are they doing the things the man wants to do? Are they treating the man like a man, or like a girl? These are easy questions to answer honestly, aren’t they?

DeNihilist
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LOL! Thinking back to when I was young and had a crush on a buddy’s girl friend. Knew I would be better for her then him, et cet er a!

Well make a long story short, realized finally, that she was just a piece of pussy, that I would dump eventually, but a good buddy is forever. Gave her a kitten and said goodbye.

D-man
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D-man
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Allowing oneself to be friendzoned is one of the ultimate stupidities a man can commit. You are in Purgatory. Firstly, you aren’t getting a girlfriend/lay like you want, and secondly, since women aren’t capable of friendship as men know it, you aren’t even getting a friend out of the situation. Lose-Lose. Cut and run.

walawala
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walawala
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The point is the “Friendzone” is only what it is if you let it be. If you want to be “friends” with a girl, it’s ok. I have a variety of female friends who do stuff for me, or occasionally with me. I’m friends with 2 of my exes and wouldn’t think of banging them again..they’re kind of like sisters. But I’m very conscious of any attempts by girls to call me a ‘friend’ and will disappear if I’m interested in them and this happens. Alternately I have used the Krauser technique of explaining “I’m a man, I see you… Read more »

Mark Minter
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I wish to contribute this concept of The New Other. There are two different sorts of “others”. From a consciousness standpoint, there is a little “me” and a big “Me”, a little “other” and big “Other”. A person’s definition of the ‘Other’ is part of what defines or even constitutes the self (in both a psychological and philosophical sense) and other phenomena and cultural units. It has been used in social science to understand the processes by which societies and groups exclude ‘Others’ whom they want to subordinate or who do not fit into their society. The concept of ‘otherness’… Read more »

Bellum
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Bellum
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Dead on Rollo! My best friend is a natural. After I got into Game I started observing his behaviours. After a while, I noticed that, although both were good, it wasn’t his physique or social status that distinguished him from other men. So I asked him what his secret was. He said you had to do NOTHING, just create casual opportunities to get together. It’s so counterintuitive that it’s almost maddening: to get women you have to do nothing out of the ordinary. Just be the best man you can be and go your merry way through life. The only… Read more »

BC
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BC
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A good example post on leaving the Friend Zone by Ian Ironwood:
http://theredpillroom.blogspot.ca/2013/01/mike-makes-breakthrough.html

If you want some actionable Game advice about the ‘friend zone’ here it is – leave it yourself! … A Woman doesn’t want the ‘liability’ of implied sexual exchange (actual or imagined) for your friendship? Don’t give it her.

Yep- Next!

Bellum
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Bellum
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@ Rollo

What if it’s not just the implied transactional nature that vexes women, but women experiencing it as a lack of understanding of the transactional nature on your part?
After all, direct game or innuendo wouldn’t work if women were offended by the transactional nature, and women love to be sexually dominated and often have rape fantasies.
Maybe on a deeper level, it’s perceived as a social handicap of a man: “he just doesn’t get it”, it being the transactional nature in this case.

MigrantWorker
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Ah, but leaving a friendzone by one’s own accord would mean that the woman gets what she wants (well some of it at least), while man gets none of what he wants – and that is “not fair”. This may well be the biggest stumbling block for men falling into the friendzone.

Badpainter
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MigrantWorker,

The friend zone is not a consolation prize.

Two forces conspire to trap men into the friend zone and keep them there.

1. The man’s own delusions about the efficacy of staying in the zone.

2. Social stigma and shaming when the man says “I don’t want to be your friend.” Which is somehow a terrifically aggressive rejection for a woman.

The man who can’t bare the shame of rejecting the zone will be trapped. The first step toward freedom learning to say “no.” The second is the realization the that opinions of others don’t mean shit.

The Burninator
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when the man says “I don’t want to be your friend.” Which is somehow a terrifically aggressive rejection for a woman.

Sounds like a fantastic reason to reject LJBF. It is a major axe and saw of destruction to her pedestal in her eyes.

Joe
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Joe
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When I read about the blow job what I now see is that women just pretend to like to do that because of the things they really like — i.e. having control of the man their hypergamous instincts have zoned in on… trapping him… ensnaring him….weakening him.

Bottom line: what duplicitous, usury, narcissists women are. Plus they think they are so good at it but frankly it’s usually nothing much more than assisted masturbation by someone who doesn’t know what they are doing.

Nick (@patientambition)
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Don’t have female friends, period. Of course you’ll have acquaintances, but given that even most men are chumps not worth hanging out with, why waste your time on women you aren’t having sex with? One thing to watch out for is women you’ve approached and started to date, but haven’t yet had sex with. If things aren’t progressing as you want them to over the initial 1-5 dates (America vs Eastern Europe), stop investing lest you become the plate she’s spinning.

theasdgamer
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When I was friendzoned twice when I was single decades ago, I naturally immediately ceased having any interest in the women.

I’m curious how other married men deal with women friends, especially if you’re active socially and don’t tomcat.

Joe
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Joe
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Another fantastic post.

vinay3543
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vinay3543
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The Iron Rule says it all. Too many men believe they will never find better than what they have/recently held onto, and they pursue on a lost cause. All this achieves is inflating a woman’s ego, but unless she is pretty much unwanted herself – hence low quality woman not worth the effort – she will never be sexually aroused to the point of taking him back.

More reasons are highlighted below to why men are the emotive pursuers and women, up to a certain age, are the ones with options:

http://www.vinaywcmd.com/2014/05/men-are-clingier-than-women.html

jf12
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@theasdgamer, I have a number of women friends socially especially from church, but don’t hang out with them except as couples with our spouses. No flirting at all. But I am also involved in a number of extracurricular, so to speak, activities, many of which primarily involve young single women. This summer I will be in a weeklong Vacation Bible School with dozens of young women (and other people, of course), a weeklong missions trip to Mexico with dozens of young women (and other people, of course), and teaching a weeklong STEM teacher continuing education course to with dozens of… Read more »

Gnarkillicious
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Your posts always come at the exact time I need them. Can’t express my gratitude enough, or the great freedom, confidence and success with women I have experienced since taking the red pill. Keep up the great work. It is greatly appreciated.

[Glad to hear it.]

theasdgamer
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@ jf12

I think that friendzoning implies that the one friendzoned has expressed a sexual interest in the other person and has been refused with LJBF. “Not flirting” is not the same as friendzoning or being friendzoned. I think we need a term for a friendship of an indeterminate state, like “neutral zone.”

titanic
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One of the best parts of having taken the red pill is having the ability to judge a relationship as going nowhere and simply moving on without drama or consternation.

jf12
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@theasdgamer, yeah I guess the terminology is erratic. But there’s erraticness all over the place. There’s voluntary friendzoning e.g. as a strategy to later work up the courage to flirt, there’s involuntary friendzoning e.g. as in “I like you but not in that way. LJBF.” And, I think, there is also the situation in which the one who might have interest (i.e., the man) decides to never exhibit any interest.

titanic
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I frequently see blue-pill friends get into slightly higher level of purgatory than the friendzone. They’re fucking the girl, but she doses out the pussy like a lab scientist would give cheese to a rat. In exchange he’s at her beckon call, being expected to attend events, buy dinners, run 10k’s, watch dogs, etc whenever she asks. When he complains or breaks a date the girl cries and whines and generally makes him feel like the bad guy. When she breaks a date he wonders what he did wrong. I’m not sure how to label this situation but I think… Read more »

titanic
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In my blue pill days, I would see a cute girl and guy on a lunchtime walk at the (85% male) campus where I work and think “wow, what a lucky dude”. Now when I see the same situation I think “wow, what a chump”.

theoak
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I wonder when the last time friend zone worked? Did it ever? Perhaps at some point before feminism took hold it might have worked, but I can’t see it having worked in the last decade or two. There is no incentive for women to pull a guy out of the friend zone: she already has what she wants (most of the same benefits of being in a relationship) without having had to exchange the sex for it, by giving the sex she feels less utility from the exchange. It should never work because the guy is giving his only bargaining… Read more »

fatmanjudo
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you do realize the purgatory picture is a stylized vagina.

[Ding! Ding! Ding! Tell him what he’s won Johnny,…]

Softek
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I’m cool with it. This is good stuff. And the “Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite” post is gold. I’m still running on the subconscious AFC script. I am doing the faster EFT tapping to try to clear this out. At its roots it’s self-neglect. For me it isn’t only with women. My boss yells at me at work and I always just take it and even feel guilty and stupid, even though I work very hard and have never missed a single day. I get a 15 minute break and I almost never take it, because I cover for… Read more »

deti
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Badpainter: “Two forces conspire to trap men into the friend zone and keep them there. 1. The man’s own delusions about the efficacy of staying in the zone. 2. Social stigma and shaming when the man says “I don’t want to be your friend.” Which is somehow a terrifically aggressive rejection for a woman.” These are great points, BP, and things that men often don’t understand until they really look at it. Women mercilessly shame men for not accepting the “offer” of “LJBF”. A man who says “that’s not acceptable to me” is, within the FI, a dickhead, an asshole,… Read more »

Just Saying
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Over the years I’ve developed various habits that I slip into when with women socially, and they are based on being in a relationship with the woman who is on my right side. It isn’t something I think about – it just is. So whenever I’m with a woman, if she is on my right side I am going to take certain liberties without thinking about it. So if sitting by her side, my hand rests high up on her inner thigh and I’ll gently knead her flesh. If I hug her, my hand slips down the back of her… Read more »

Mark Fox (@swiftfoxmark2)
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Women are not friends of men. They never can be your friends and they never will be. The sex thing will always get in the way.

So instead of trying to be her husband before you’ve sealed the deal, go out and live your life on your terms. Take no crap from any woman, no matter what her standing is in your life, and simply find contentment in what you want to do.

jf12
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@titanic “I’m not sure how to label this situation”

Um, marriage?

jf12
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@theoak, “I wonder when the last time friend zone worked? Did it ever?”

According to women, and to bluepill men, it’s the only thing that “really” works.

theoak
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@jf12 “According to women, and to bluepill men, it’s the only thing that “really” works.”

I beg to differ, as rollo points out in the main post, women are now equating friend zone to rape. Perhaps they did before.

jf12
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Seriously, every woman believes her true love will emerge from among her beta orbiters, suddenly revealing himself in the time of her need as the Sun that he really is.

titanic
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@jf12
Nice

having a bad day
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having a bad day
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“If you believe you’re in some friend zone with a woman, never overtly admit to or complain about it with anyone, man or woman – you will only reaffirm your perception of being a necessitous Beta. Men will judge, women will talk, and your self-perception gets caught in a negative feedback loop.” not only your self-perception, but the perception of any new girl that you meet…if you’re in the friend zone with any other girl (and the new girl finds out…), you will have a much harder time escaping that same fate with your new prospect, since she can already… Read more »

jf12
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Re: women talk. I mention that this young woman admits that women’s “boy toys” are beta orbiters that the women lead on, deliberately.
http://thoughtcatalog.com/annaleta-nichols/2014/05/tired-of-dealing-with-nice-guys-youve-only-got-yourself-to-blame/
“In girl world, there is an unspoken yet universal truth that girls will hang out with any guy that gives them attention. In other words, girls like complaining about the guy that just won’t stop texting them, the guy that asks them out like every other week, and the guys who gives “super inappropriate” valentines gifts, because they have carefully fostered this relationship to give them a reason to complain.”

Angry Gamer
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Notes from Mark Minter’s War and Peace Comment. A Woman Friendzoning a man is a form of Malign Encouragement A Woman makes the man a New Other The Woman thus encourages the New Other(Man) to take a strategy that is harmful to the Man Men wish to make the Woman to be Kindred (through mating, relationship etc). Men initate an Altruism strategy to hopefully change the Woman’s mind. (becomes nice guy) But the Woman’s Friendzone strategy prevents this eventuality. (Mark Minter’s ‘Aid and Abet Man’s opponent’ comment) (Mark Minter’s ‘Women flake because they have no respect for men, and because… Read more »

M3
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“If you want some actionable Game advice about the ‘friend zone’ here it is – leave it yourself!” … “Your “friend zoning” is a failed relationship. Approach new women, develop new prospects. A Woman doesn’t want the ‘liability’ of implied sexual exchange (actual or imagined) for your friendship? Don’t give it her.” I did. I stopped giving it to her. I moved on. You don’t know how hard society comes down on you when you actually do decide to develop new prospects, move on, deny the original target any more time/attention/affection, to not give it to her everything you used… Read more »

cryo
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I’m just theorizing, but the tendency of females to want to “remain friends” after they dump you is evidence of this dynamics. By befriending you, they are essentially desexualizing you. It is easier to move on from someone when they remain in your life platonically. Female “friendship” is really an eradication tactic. In the occasions where my exes didn’t attempt to sustain a false friendship, it was because their hamsters were angry and offended at me for subverting the feminine imperative. In every case like this, I would eventually hear from them again after a period of no contact, and… Read more »

theasdgamer
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Looking at the flip side of this as a married man. I’ve had “The Chat” with several women friends about how we can enjoy chemistry as long as my boundaries are respected. That way you avoid scorning them by putting them in the friend zone (Hell hath no fury…) and avoid having to worry about their intrigues trying to get you into bed. They still get the tingles and attention they crave and they do stuff for you. Win/win.

Badpainter
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Another aspect of the friend zone men misunderstand is the notion of investment. They, we, I believe/believed that by demonstrating righteous behavior that eventually rewards will flow. What is misunderstood is that women live only in the now. They do not appreciate the past or the future. Since the woman is getting what she wants now why would she suddenly reward that at some point in the future? Men however are brought up to be very oriented toward the future. Today’s plowing is food for next winter. The first day in the gym is next years better health and future… Read more »

Steve H
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@deti –

“The thing Rollo and Softek have laid out here is that LJBF is not an “offer” of anything. Get it through your heads: LJBF IS REJECTION.”

LJBF is also usurious annexation of another planet moon.

“So you aren’t really “rejecting” her; you’re simply pointing out that you’re not interested in her offer of nothing.”

And you’re not interested in being a pro bono addendum to her sociosexual insurance policy.

Marky Mark
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Article makes sense…. but what if you use the girl’s presence as social proof for pre selection to get other girls. I think the mistake guys make is HOPING that it will turn into a relationship… even if you are alpha not every girl will want to date you but knowing how to turn that to your advantage with other girls is a good thing.

cryo
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“Lastly, men give far too much credit to women for their thoughts and words. Mostly women are frivolous, banal, intellectually dishonest, and never to be taken seriously when discussing anything that is not tangible and objective. The friend zone is not tangible it does not exist unless one chooses to believe it exists.” Yes, well put. Even on “manosphere” blogs, the comments are tainted by female influence and those males that would choose to engage them. There is nothing to be gained from arguing with women, the most that will happen is she will be unmoved by the male’s logical… Read more »

jf12
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@Badpainter, re: “What the guy trapped in the zone must realize is that he is currently reaping the only reward he is going to get. There is no future because he can’t negotiate escrow with someone who can’t see beyond the now.”

Hmm. So men’s attention-surplus investment strategy fails because women don’t see it as an investment at all, simply a gift. “Gee, thanks for these flowers, I’ll toss them on the pile.”

deti
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M3:

Well stated as to the typical female response to the man saying “no thanks” to LJBF.

She views rejection of her “friendship” as a personal affront, the lowest insult one can visit upon her; the functional equivalent of shitting on her porch. A beta man should be delighted that she deigns and stoops to give him the scraps from her table; he is the epitome of rudeness for declining. “Why, how DARE any man REFUSE to be MY friend!!”

kfg
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kfg
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“The answer is: activities”

OK. Where do I get those?

M3
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Deti “She views rejection of her “friendship” as a personal affront, the lowest insult one can visit upon her; the functional equivalent of shitting on her porch.” I’ll do you one better. I’ll say every woman who has an orbiter knows full well the final outcome once he becomes aware enough to change his own SMV and leave her orbit. She doesn’t care one lick about losing the “friendship” – that’s only the what she wants you to think, what she portrays. She was never your “friend”. People generally don’t put their ‘friends’ through an unusual amount of torment (unless… Read more »

zodak
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you write the best posts about the friendzone than anyone else on the net. that’s why i linked to it on my own friendzone post.

if only i had discovered your blog 7 years ago. i try to spread your words to young men but it’s not easy.

FWB
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I remember breaking up with a past gf right after pumping her twice – raw. She completely flipped and started to freak out by crying and calling the whole situation ridiculous. “I can’t believe you! Really ! You fucked me twice completely raw! I thought you were different; you’re just like all of them!” I had my reasons for being so cold at the time. By that I mean, I had suspicions she was cheating on me. I told her we could still be friends but I said this with a tone of insincerity. I really didn’t want to see… Read more »

Steve H
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‘“We can’t ever be friends when we use to be lovers….” Can anyone guess what girls mean by that?’ I take it to mean ‘you aren’t useful to me if I am placed in a demoted role. If I can’t benefit from the status boost of having a boyfriend – you – then I’m not going to entertain your cut-rate offer of fractional value. And I definitely can’t handle being your ‘friend’ if/when we’re out somewhere and you start macking on another chick. And I don’t want to lose face by being your fuck-buddy orbiter, at least not after having… Read more »

Tam the bam
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this post and every comment in it; pure gold. Specially M3’s. Kinda glad I was too knackered from driving to go out tonight.

jf12
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Attention surplus disorder. Hmm. Is every bit of surplus attention that a man gives a woman intrinsically disordered?

It makes sense to give a nice bouquet and lovey card to your wife as thanks/exchange for a fine night between the sheets. It may be surplus to give a nice bouquet and lovey card “just because” without getting the sheet action.

Angry Gamer
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@jf12

NOW THERE IS AN IDEA!

Romantic/Chump mantra is to provide gifts etc at “surprising” times to give the illusion of altruism.

BUT JUST MAYBE the best play for married men is Cooperation or Selfishness… or EVEN alternating Cooperation and Selfishness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_game_theory#Strategic_alternatives_in_social_behaviour

Perhaps at RANDOM times.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/11/07/intermittent-love/

Betas do Altruism hoping for Cooperation
Alphas do Selfishness and reward with Cooperation

It’s all about who get’s their nuts rewarded.

Angry Gamer
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@FWB ‘“We can’t ever be friends when we use to be lovers….” Can anyone guess what girls mean by that?’ Actually ignore what she says. WATCH what she does. Most likely if you txt a booty call you would be rewarded. I know it’s hard for most to realize the fundamental fact of Female False Statements. But it’s true. What she is probably ‘really saying’ filtered with a large dose of estrogen is: “I am too weak to say no to continued sex with you. So please don’t try to be friendly with me.” Sex for a man is very… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
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We can’t ever be friends when we use to be lovers…

It means that her poor little hamster cannot handle having been tossed on the trash heap of your disregard. Ironic, isn’t it.

UrbanMeyer
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This topic is definitely my favorite since we all have had experience with the friend zone. My problem was after I had broken up with a gf and then tried to get back together. It makes me cringe to think of all the time wasted that I could have been pursuing other options. I even took a girl to a concert thinking somehow we would hook up after. The next day she was confirmed in a relationship on FB with another guy. Life is too short to fight a losing battle with females. Off topic I would like to congratulate… Read more »

DeNihilist
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Well, I think the hippies had one thing right, which should be emblazoned on all young men minds, “Ass, Grass or Gas. Nobody rides for FREE!”

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[…] Purgatory (The Rational Male) […]

Tgrln
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“Guys, just understand how easy you make it for us to be bitches. You’re not being mean when you don’t take no for an answer, but you are being a bit stupid.”

From jf12’s link to that girlie’s post… “just get it”! :)))))

Fred Flange, Itself
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A word of encouragement for Softek: you’ll get there. T’ain’t easy shaking off the LJBF guilt and thinking its your duty to rescue the whole damn world, let alone your boss or your work colleagues. None of whom really give a shit about your well-being either so long as you are no more than A Really Useful Engine to them. Figuring that out is when the coke-bottle scales fall from your eyes. I got there – and it took me years to get there too. With none of these forums available to me to let me know I was on… Read more »

Jeremy
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Realistically, you should never even be in a position to be told “LJBF”. She should know exactly what you want from her long before she considers you an easy mark for cheap validation.

Buno
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@theoak re: “I had plans to meet up with some friends/girl at a club, so it was time for her to leave. It was raining so I said I would drop her off at her car. When I stopped, she climbed over on to my side and and started making out with me. After a little bit of that she asked me to bring her back to my apartment. I said ‘that’s not a good idea, let’s just stay friends like you wanted’. Most mindblown face I’ve ever seen. Frame is crucial.” Reminded me of the end scene from “Big… Read more »

Softek
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@ Fred Flange Thanks. She never told me LJBF, because I never outed myself to her. I’ve outed myself to a lot of girls in the past and it always ended horribly. So since all those times and then finding the manosphere, I’ve learned to hold my cards much closer to my chest. But there’s no way she couldn’t pick up on the fact that I’ve been interested in her for so long. All these years I’ve just been there (on and off) for her emotional support, while she never respected me or took me sexually seriously. It was never… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
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The only women I am friendly with are those that I have little or no sexual attraction to. One chica at work has stayed in my bed, but declined my advances (that’s unlike a woman I hear you cry!), but it wasn’t LJBF; more face-saving at work. Her parting words as she left mine were ‘This never happened, right’. So it remains secret to this day (because as a man, I AM able to keep my mouth shut, upon request). But also I took her number and never use it. Instead, I give her the middle finger every time I… Read more »

jf12
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@Angry Gamer, thanks! In this one instance, at least, I put my money where my mouth is. By more or less shutting off the firehose of romance as extended foreplay, and primarily only doling out romantic stuff as a kind of extended afterplay as a reward for sex, then lo and behold I now get about twice a much sex as I was getting, all the way up from a couple times per month to four or so times per month. In other words, contray to all women’s advice, romance does not work as foreplay since it satisfies her urges… Read more »

jf12
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Re: “I am not friends with any of my exes.” I have only the one ex-sex partner, my ex-wife, but I can’t imagine being friends with any such ex. “I don’t like you in the way I used to” means “I don’t like you.”

Is it because women have so very little of other interest to offer?

TheMonkeyKing
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@ jf12 ‘Is it because women have so very little of other interest to offer?’ I think that may be somewhat unfair…. probably more like, ‘They have so very little of other interest to offer unplugged alpha males’. It occurs that the feminine imperative encourages the blue-pill man to engage with such feminine pursuits and interests as ‘shopping’, ‘soft-furnishings’, ‘fashion’, ‘retro-chic’, ‘styling’, ‘interior design’ and ‘material wealth’. Personally, I am resolved to never get involved in such things, however, I see that, at the moment, the vast majority of the male population is. Until a few years ago, I would… Read more »

Steve H
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“What the pursuing man isn’t connecting with is that his pursuit is a negotiation for her desire (i.e. “I’ll meet all your terms and you’ll be intimate with me.”).” But that beta male orbiter line of thought gels perfectly with what he hears those same women saying – regarding the Alpha male she was able to attract sufficiently to have a relationship with him. These women will retroactively declare that the particular alpha male boyfriend/husband somehow ‘magically’ met all of the criteria on her ‘list’ – her explicitly delineated terms, in other words. The beta male orbiter hears this loud… Read more »

Tilikum
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R, “For all of women’s pop-psychology blathering about communication being the key to a good relationship, women’s actions continually prove that they don’t want to be communicated with in terms of absolute, above board, reason. If you’re attempting to appeal to reason, you kill the vibe, and you prove that you Just Don’t Get how women work. Women don’t want explication, they want demonstration. ” so…so…so… important to understand this is where the successful Lothario model is born. By having a similar emotional profile as a girl (or faking it), including the desire for secrecy, being non-judgmental, and understanding how… Read more »

Softek
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I was going to say something. But for a little intermission, I’ll say this much is for sure: since becoming Game-aware, this song’s made a lot more sense to me.

ternarydaemon
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“The friend zone is a Beta man’s punishment for expecting to be entitled to the rewards reserved for an Alpha.”

So true, so painful to swallow.

Steve H
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I think a point that could be emphasized more is this: If you’ve fucked up with any particular woman such that you arrive in LJBF-ville, but you are game aware and know where and how things went awry, simply turning away from her for a bit and putting in about a month’s work of creating actual abundance via new women – that should do the trick. You won’t be trapped in ‘purgatory’ for long. Preselection via abundance-acquisition will make a girl question her conclusion (that you’re beta) virtually immediately on-site, when you’ve got another hot chick flirting with you. There’s… Read more »

jf12
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So, is the real reason that women are so much friendlier to alphas after the alphas dump them, than women are to betas after the women dump them, because the women DO think that the friendzone is a good strategy for a *woman* to take, in hopes of getting back together?

Of course the women will say the complete opposite, so this is probably the real reason.

Steve H
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Not only is it a good strategy for women to take with Alphas, it is also a good strategy for women to take with higher Betas, who still have some plausible chance of seeing the light and becoming Alpha, at which point those women would actually be attracted to the Beta-turned-Alpha.

That’s a very different way of looking at womens’ LJBF strategy, for sure.

Mansa Sundiata
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I normally don’t participate on internet discussions however after reading this article I felt compelled to respond. Thank you Rollo for creating this site. I stumbled on it looking for a way to get over a girl at my workplace that i thought liked me but was just being indecisive. I now realize that she was using the techniques of the coquette to get me more and more infatuated with her so i would give her favorable treatment. Discovering this site inspired me to actually research game, ( I thought it was for loser guys) read The Art of Seduction,… Read more »

Mansa Sundiata
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I actually read that article already. It’s what made me understand what was going with her and it inspired me to pick up the art of seduction. As a gift back I recently read an article where by mutating a single gene in male mice they eliminated the mice’s aggression (and also made them bisexual)

http://njc.rockefeller.edu/PDF_BN08/Stowers02.pdf

I doubt it would work on humans but if it did they could manufacture the betas they needed instead of having to condition us to be beta. Pretty scary if you think about it.

Seraph
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“I would imagine most or all AFCs will have ‘red flags’ in all areas of their lives. Not living up to their potential, or even anywhere remotely near it, in their careers, having friends that don’t support them or care about them, in addition to having poor or nonexistent sex lives and/or terrible and stressful relationships that they feel they have no control over.” Spot on. I have been doing a HELL of a lot of introspection over the last 18 months, deconstructing my Beta-tude programming over the decades. I just, JUST recently realized how my past behavior in so… Read more »

Angry Gamer
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@Rollo

what if Beta Orbiting is the indication of mating value a woman can objectively rely on?

What if having Beta Orbiting tells the woman she is still not AT THE WALL?

jf12
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@Angry Gamer, very good point. Beta orbiters are a woman’s equivalent of plates. The number of booty-call plates a man has, or could have if he bothered dialing (heh, dialing is so obsolete), is the best measure of his SMV. The number of beta orbiters a woman has, who would help her move her apartment, or accompany her to a gay wedding, is a great measure of … something. If not quite SMV, it’s still the ability to pull men based on sexual (if unrequited) attraction.

Johnycomelately
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I have a sneaking suspicion friend zoning by women is a method of intra sexual competition signaling, displaying she is of higher value than her orbiters. The larger and higher value her entourage the higher her perceived value (from other women), a form of sexual status marker sans the trinkets, particularly given that real sexual status can only be given by men. I have no expertise in the matter but I would wager fag hags would have very few heterosexual orbiters and befriending homosexuals is a form of obtaining faux orbiters. That’s why Kate Bolick gloated about buying wedding suits… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
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@Rollo ‘For all of women’s pop-psychology blathering about communication being the key to a good relationship, women’s actions continually prove that they don’t want to be communicated with in terms of absolute, above board, reason. If you’re attempting to appeal to reason, you kill the vibe, and you prove that you Just Don’t Get how women work. Women don’t want explication, they want demonstration.’ Spot on, Squire. Some of the most powerful messages can be conveyed by not verbalising AT ALL. Verbalising a need and reasoning to anyone, let alone a woman, allows them the knowledge and power to deny… Read more »

Softek
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“Provide everything for oneself, apart from that one thing that only a woman can provide”

Are you talking about strokes, or did you mean premature heart disease? grin

TheMonkeyKing
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@Softek ‘Are you talking about strokes, or did you mean premature heart disease?’

Hahaa. Just like getting socks and cheap toiletries for Christmas; joyless, yet ultimately convenient.

jf12
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@Johnnycomelately, re: “The larger and higher value her entourage the higher her perceived value (from other women), …, particularly given that real sexual status can only be given by men.”

Correct. It’s all about the women. A man with plates has status among … women. A woman with plates has status among … women.

Moreover, marriage itself is for status of the woman among … women. There is nothing else.

Tilikum
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Monkey King…..”The red-pill silverback needs her for one thing and one thing only. He has everything else, and that everything else is what she wants from you, in addition to what you want.”

indeed.

as someone here recently said, a woman is a hollow shell, a vessel waiting to be filled with your accomplishments. any reflections of a soul you receive are just that, reflections of emotions you have placed there.

place good emotions strategically, remove them strategically.

this is the path of the Sage of the Slattern.

Steve H
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Rollo – re: “The more Beta orbiters she hold rapt the better her potential reserve for long term security will be when needed.” I agree with this completely, but there’s another point to be made that I relate from past experience – I think women might innately *know* that a needy beta man has the wherewithal to better himself, become more confident, and raise his SMV (whereas for a woman, it’s all a downward spiral regardless of her ‘confidence’ level). I recall one specific instance, ’bout 5 years ago, of getting LJBF’d by two cute (but not hot) girls because… Read more »

jf12
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@Rollo, “So conversely, the attentions of orbiting provider males essentially prompt a woman to capitalizing on her SMV with the Alpha assholes they complain of and compete for sex with.”

Thanks for completing this idea for me. Yes, I can see it is the nonsexual attentions that she gets from betas that enables a woman to psychologically get only the sex from alphas without missing the nonsexual attentions from the alphas.

TheMonkeyKing
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@Rollo: “Attention attraction capacity denotes social rank within the peer clutch. The more attractive the girl, the more popular she bcomes and the more influence she weilds. This isn’t to say that any particular female cognizantly realizes this. However, when ostracized from the collective, this capacity for attracting attention in a high degree makes her despised. The attention can still be beneficial for affirmation (i.e. realized jealousy), it’s just that the intent that has changed. Thus, women use attention not only for their own affirmation, individually and collectively, but also to do combat with each other. Far more damaging than… Read more »

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