Purgatory

purgatoryheader1

I’m going to apologize in advance to commenter Softek (hopefully you’re cool with my posting this), but his comment from The Real Nice was exactly what I was digging into this morning:

I’ll tell you where the friendzone is: it’s in your head. You want to believe that something is going to happen with a girl and that you’ve got your foot in the door because you’ve always been there for her for so long, and you always have “so much fun” when you hang out, they like you, they tell you they enjoy spending time with you.

Yeah…no.

Rollo’s said if a woman’s interested in you, she won’t confuse you.

A girl that I was not interested in was interested in me. That girl let me know she was interested in me because while we were hanging out she initiated physical contact herself, I just went along with it, and next thing I know I’m on my back and she’s pulling my boxers down and sucking my dick.

After she swallowed I figured out, “Oh. She must be interested in me. Okay.” For real. That oblivious.

And that was the second day we were hanging out. I’d never met her or hung out with her before. We’re talking 0 to 60, although in her mind when we started hanging out I guess she was already going 60. She did not tell me she liked me or cared about me or wanted to be with me. What she “said” was ask if I wanted her to go down on me, and then she did.

Night and day. I’ve known other girls for years and years and spent so much time with them and never saw one iota of pussy, and only on a couple of occasions got a hug. Nothing was ever going to happen. And I was in the friendzone in my mind. I’d spend all my time there wishing and hoping and never realized how short I was selling myself and how by being the pursuer, I’d already lost.

If you’re waiting for something to develop, you’re already fucked. I learned that one after reflecting on that experience with that other girl. That was the first time in my life any girl showed sexual interest in me — and it was very, very clear. She was the one throwing herself at me. And when she did and I just soaked it all up she was very happy about that and it was just this torrential downpour of praise and compliments and how great I was and everything inbetween.

I haven’t had a lot of experience, but the little I have had has shown me the difference between pursuing a girl who may or may not be interested in you eventually, and one who absolutely, unequivocally is. It is night and day. There’s no mistaking it.

We’re not being nice to ourselves and loving ourselves when we willingly stay in the friendzone in our minds — wishing and hoping and fantasizing. A girl who’s interested will give you so much more, and she’ll give it at the drop of a hat.

I’ve done posts in the past about the utility LJBF rejections mean to women, men’s Beta Game tactics of Playing Friends in the hopes of qualifying for a woman’s intimacy at a later date, and how men and women differ in their approaches to friendship based on their same-sex friendships. In all of these I brush a bit into the concept of the “friend zone” and how it’s really men who put themselves (usually willingly) in this state:

Men get a LJBF rejection because of a process. These are the “friends first” mindset guys; the guys who put far too much emphasis on a solitary woman and wait her out until the perfect moment to attempt to escalate to intimacy, at which point her most comfortable rejection (Buffer) is to LJBF. This is made all the more easy for her because of the process the guy used to get to that point.

[…] Get it out of your head now that you’re even in a so called “friend zone” with any woman. There is no friend zone – there is only the limbo between you being fooled that a girl is actually a friend on an equitable level to your same sex friends, and you understanding that as soon as she becomes intimate with another guy your attentions will become a liability to any relationship she might want to have with the new sexual interest and she puts you off, or you do the same when you become so involved with another girl.

I probably could have mentioned this in The Real Nice post, but I’m noticing a social trend from overly ’empowered’ women in not simply rejecting the concept of the ‘friend zone’, but outright hostility towards the men who insist they’re forced into it. Women are angry about men complaining about the friend zone.

Neo-feminism HATES the idea of the friend zone for the same reasons it hates Faux-Nice Guys; there’s an implied state of exchange. They hate the reciprocal part of the Savior Schema because it’s considered one degree away from rape.

Nothing upsets the feminine-primary balance of sexual selectivity and betrays the secret mechanics of women’s need to optimize hypergamy than having a man overtly expose the transactional side of women’s sexual strategy. The side that puts him into a friend zone purgatory for being a ‘tryer’ when it comes to sex, but her need for his trying hasn’t reached a critical point.

This is what the friend zone does; it makes a man simultaneously responsible for, and accountable to, his want for sex by attempting to qualify for it with a woman. The friend zone is a Beta man’s punishment for expecting to be entitled to the rewards reserved for an Alpha. The Alpha doesn’t qualify himself for a woman’s intimacy, she qualifies for his sexual approval. And the longer you stay rapt by her in the friend zone the readier you’ll be when she needs your dutiful, sex-lured, providership.

If you want an example of the feminine imperative’s fluidly reinventing social conventions for itself look no further than how the concept of the ‘friend zone’ has evolved since the mid 90’s. In 1994 it was cute in an “Aww, hang in there fella, she’ll come around to loving you for who you are eventually (once she’s “grown” from the experiences of banging bad boys). In 2014 it’s  “Any guy who thinks he’s in the so called friend zone is just a potential rapist because he thinks he’s owed sex for his friendship.”

A Way Out of Hell

One of the most common questions you’ll read from desperate blue pill men, not just in the manosphere, but on damn near every dating forum, to Dear Abby, to AskMen is “How do I get out of the friendzone?” Type that question into a Google query and look at the number of returns you get. The question of course is usually followed by some plea for advice or a script to follow in order to finally get with the Girl of his Dreams®, and rationally and reasonably make her aware of how he measures up to everything on her ‘boyfriend list’.

If you want some actionable Game advice about the ‘friend zone’ here it is – leave it yourself!

Even if you think you have the best and noblest of intentions in your White Knight ‘friend zone’ status, the fact remains that women in general, and the woman you have set your noble intent upon, will consider your ‘friend zoning’ a prison of your own making – not theirs.

Even the most complicit or implicit woman in a guy’s ‘friend zoning’ will never accept the liability for placing him into that state, and even the most culpable woman in this will still resent him; not just for pointing out her own participation in it, but because it irrecoverably confirms him as being a Beta chump who would allow himself to participate in his own ‘friend zoning’.

If you believe you’re in some friend zone with a woman, never overtly admit to or complain about it with anyone, man or woman – you will only reaffirm your perception of being a necessitous Beta. Men will judge, women will talk, and your self-perception gets caught in a negative feedback loop.

Next, remember Iron Rule of Tomassi #7:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #7
It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. Never root through the trash once the garbage has been dragged to the curb. You get messy, your neighbors see you do it, and what you thought was worth digging for is never as valuable as you thought it was.

Your “friend zoning” is a failed relationship. Approach new women, develop new prospects. A Woman doesn’t want the ‘liability’ of implied sexual exchange (actual or imagined) for your friendship? Don’t give it her.

 

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Steve H
Steve H
7 years ago

All this intra-female viciousness makes sense in light of how women’s preferred realm of communication is covert. So, all these mendacious thoughts, feelings, and schema are bubbling under the surface – growing, growing, angrier, angrier…. What I don’t know is whether that intra-female viciousness writ-large has gotten worse recently (as illustrated by clips like the one TheMonkeyKing posted) or whether there’s just more mass-media exposing of the almost Newtonian scientific law that eventually, too much covert erupts in overt. Maybe the problem *has* gotten worse in that we see more of the overt, or maybe we’re just less disciplined in… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

It’s really sad to me to read the comments on that video. The comments are a lot more painful for me to read than watching the video. I don’t listen to this song anymore because it puts me in a horrible mood, but it says it all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWKpblxejWE The loneliness and sexual frustration, as shown in the YouTube comments on that video, is made fun of. It adds insult to injury, and I think this can have a lot to do with what pushes these guys over the edge. It isn’t just rejection and having to cope with the agonizing… Read more »

JackBlack23
JackBlack23
7 years ago

Youtube has pulled the video … anyway, I noted that the kid is not at all bad looking and was apparently well-off as he was driving a BMW at age 22 (presumably paid for by his parents) … interestingly, I think someone in the Reddit thread mentioned that the guy was a puahate forum member and in the video itself he mentions how much he hates “alpha males” for getting all the girls so it sounds like he was acquainted with “game” (or at least the associated terminology) …

LiveFearless
7 years ago

FRIEND-ZONED Males Back EMBRACE Body campaign on Kickstarter. http://wp.me/P3P5mL-s1 From @Rollo’s http://therationalmale.com/2013/01/24/the-new-thin/ “I should also point out that it’s a uniquely White Knight habit to publicly defend a woman’s body image insecurities in order to get the identification / affirmation strokes they believe endears them to women. I hear these guys parrot back the same lines women self-affirm when talking about their body shape or trying to disqualify a sexual competitor, in an effort to be more ‘like’ the women they hope to get with. The idea is that they believe they’ll be rewarded for taking the “fat acceptance, love-who-you-are”… Read more »

Westcoaster
Westcoaster
7 years ago

A little off-topic here and perhaps too early to write this, but the shooter in the Santa Barbara, California, massacre had a video saying “women give their love and sex to other men and not to me” before he went on his shooting.

Tragic, and I would say if AFCism isn’t a mental disorder, it’s darn close. (Obviously he had other mental problems, too, but saying his AFCness was one major problem.)

Westcoaster
Westcoaster
7 years ago

Whoops, I see someone already has commented on the California shooter.

Angry Gamer
7 years ago

@MonkeyKing “This might explain a woman’s natural propensity to gossip. When a woman attacks the respectability and character of another (“she’s such a slut”), in essence, she is assualting the woman’s agency for garnering attention by delegitimizing it” I agree “Quite. Just a vicious cycle of legitimising-delegitimising. She can’t be a sl*t and she can’t be a frigid bag-lady, she must remain somewhere in between. How on Earth did they get themselves in this mess?” I disagree… It’s not a vicious cycle and the dear ladies should not be sympathized with for playing it. They are all playing the greatest… Read more »

Angry Gamer
7 years ago

ARE NO* 🙂

blurkel
blurkel
7 years ago

As an experienced traveller in the Friend Zone when I was young, I can see where it isn’t going to ever disappear, no matter what the feminista want. It is a great way to condition less-than-desirable males into unquestioningly accepting the first woman willing to settle for him. But unlike my generation, younger men today aren’t all that blind to the tricks of women. They watched while we tried to play the game as we were told it had to be, only to fail miserably and painfully. They are thus not in a hurry to walk into the buzzsaw of… Read more »

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
7 years ago

Wow! the more I read the more I realize just how old I am and unaware I must have been as a young man. Most of the experiences related here are so not in my realm that I have problems accepting them. I was not great with women, but did accomplish over 25 lays before getting married. May have been that I was in the second phase (Disco) of the sexual revolution. But if the reports here are even remotely true, guys, I really feel for you. If the woman in your age group are this slutty, yet stuck up,… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
7 years ago

“On a subconscious level a bullpen of male orbiters represent the future insurance of a provisioning surplus. The more Beta orbiters she hold rapt the better her potential reserve for long term security will be when needed. Thus, the more non-sexual orbiters she has the freer she feels to capitalize on the Alpha Fucks aspect of her hypergamy. If she knows that there are multiple Beta men patiently waiting her out and ready to meet her emotional, familial and financial security needs in the future (The Epiphany Phase) the more secure she’ll feel in pursuing (and fucking) the Alpha men… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
7 years ago

just to follow up on the beta orbiter idea…there should be some factor regarding the intensity of the beta orbiters v. the sheer number of them. in other words, if a woman has one or two orbiters that she KNOWS will never ‘leave’ that might allow her more latitude in chasing alphas than a woman who has 5 or 6 orbiters that are only sort of committed to her (and might search elsewhere if she gets too slutty)…

Wanderer
Wanderer
7 years ago

This quote has been probably been mentioned before, but every time I read a discussion about the “Friend Zone,” this is what comes to my mind: “Between men and women there is no friendship possible. There is passion, enmity, worship, love, but no friendship.” -Oscar Wilde Good words to live by. My opinion is that if you are friends with a girl, who is not married to or dating one of your guy friends, you are not putting the right type of energy out there. They should love you or hate you, but no girl should ever want to be… Read more »

blurkel
blurkel
7 years ago
Reply to  Wanderer

@Wanderer

No girl ever WANTED to be my friend. Either saying the word implied that I should give up and go away, or she had more in mind than I was wiling to surrender.

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
7 years ago

Wanderer, remember ole Oscar was a satirist, so this statement must be read with that in mind. And if I interpret Rollo’s continuing message here, this aint your grandfathers era. Things have changed, women are now “free”. Either accept this and learn to live in the new paradigm, or just waste away.

Wanderer
Wanderer
7 years ago

… I agree completely. But I think the post-feminist world will at least resemble to some degree the pre-feminist world. I can’t imagine my grandfather spending time with girls pretending to be their friends when he really wanted them sexually. I think the quote from Wilde (and granted, I’m no expert on his work or the context) is illuminating because I believe he was writing this at the time that feminism was just starting to take root. It hails as a warning.

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
7 years ago

Yeah, was “discussing” this with the wife yesterday (if you can hold a woman’s attention for more then a couple of minutes when talking about deep subjects, HA!) Her quick replies included what is bantered about here quite often, women now are able to financially take care of themselves, so why would they marry young? I feel that women have the feeling that they were under the yoke, and now that the tether has snapped are penduluming to what they consider “equality” but have actually passed that station by. They will return a bit over time, but will never be… Read more »

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
7 years ago

Oh yeah, forgot to include, this will of course mean a lot more FWB happening betwixt the sexes. Which could loosen up the LJBF situation, in that these BO’s will be getting a bit of tail now and then from their “girlfriends”.

Wanderer
Wanderer
7 years ago

Yes, very relevant points. Women’s financial independence does seem to prevent any chance for a pre-feminist era to return (assuming of course, the world does not regress to another “dark age” so to speak). And you are also right to point out that there will be a need for men to adapt. But I still can’t help but wonder how far the pendulum has swung past center as far as feminism influence on society is concerned especially as it pertains to women’s financial independence? Furthermore, how much can things change when the proverbial pendulum swings back in the other direction?… Read more »

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
7 years ago

” If the government stopped financially assisting single mothers?” +50% of voters women, plus all the manginas trying to get poosy, aint gonna happen “… If men stopped voluntarily assisting women financially? … If men stopped sacrificing their ambitions to pursue women (coming full-circle back to how a guy ends up in the “friend zone”)?” In biology 11, our teacher asked what were the things a person needed to survive? the usual answers about food, oxygen, etc. I raised my hand and said sex. A laugh occurred through the class of course, and the teacher stammered that a person did… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
TheMonkeyKing
7 years ago

@Kate – “Women actually like to have beta orbiters to protect them…from other women.” I know. That’s what I mean. A lot of women I have known, especially those more classically beautiful/demure, HAD to make friends with males because they copped so much hate and jealousy from females as CHILDREN. In fact, my ex was so affected by bullying at her all-girls school, it obviously still stunts her self-esteem today, in her 30’s. If we men think we are in competition, it’s nothing compared to women. They are the most abundant gender, therefore competition for mates is greater. Society perpetuates… Read more »

TheMonkeyKing
TheMonkeyKing
7 years ago

What Eliot Roger failed to come to terms with, or may be simply could not comprehend, as results of severe mental illness, was that he was only just entering the greatest competition of all. His assumption that his material wealth in some way made him a better reproductive prospect is exactly the kind of superficial 21stC BS philosophy that sickens me. His flashy beemer, his expensive shades, his ‘nice’ clothes. This guy was not only nuts, he was a victim of 21stC material wealth BS, like so many others are. I agree with him that humanity should be ashamed of… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

Desire can’t be negotiated. Even if affection/sex are real biological needs, the hard part is accepting the reality that bargaining for them is the nail in the coffin. We feel cheated because we’re willing to bend over backwards and do whatever it takes to get women to ‘love’ us. We want affection and sex and loyalty and we believe that if we’re nice and good and communicate well — i.e., do all the things mainstream feminist media tells us we as men should do — we’ll get it. Eliot Roger is an extreme example of the frustration every AFC feels.… Read more »

Rust Newman
Rust Newman
7 years ago

Excellent post, excellent comments. I’d love @Rollo’s perspective on this: What I’m very interested in, is how this dynamic works with a Male to Female application. I haven’t read (perhaps I missed it) any comments here about the dynamic of a Male putting a female in the friend zone. I realize that there is no true benefit here for a man, but I have experimented with this for the hell of it and I have drastically flipped around women’s desire towards me. Example: I had a gf of 2 years who I broke up with. She was devastated. After about… Read more »

blurkel
blurkel
7 years ago
Reply to  Rust Newman

@Rust Newman I happen to believe (from hard experience) that all men should friend zone all women. Considering what a man has to give up from his life to make room for a woman to enter it, she should be making him an offer that he isn’t going to want to refuse. But the offer itself must be accompanied by trust that she will live up to her word, something that isn’t going to happen just because she says it will. The necessary trust is earned, and entitled women aren’t going to go through the effort no matter what they… Read more »

Rust Newman
Rust Newman
7 years ago

@blurkel Thanks for that. Very refreshing to read. I find the most empowering (and difficult) reminder to myself in the whole redpill swallowing experience is that as men we are completely free to lead the lives and partake in relationships we choose. I know logically that my freedom lies in the simple pursuit of doing what I choose to do, meaning, experience as many relationships as possible until one may or may not strike me in a more durably fulfilling way. I have no idea who that women will be, but like you said, I know for certain that she… Read more »

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[…] friendzone is a self-inflicted mental state. Related: The only way out of the friendzone is to stop being her […]

Judge nismo
Judge nismo
7 years ago

If a woman LJBF’s you, you have failed. Alas, kick these women to the curb instantly. They are just playing the alpha fucks, beta bucks game with you as the beta. Though you have been sexually been kicked to the curb, delete her from every platform you have her on (facebook, twitter, instagram, etc.) Women who are interested in you will show you they want you. If a female is playing games, has trust issues, or makes excuses, tell her to fuck off and delete her. It really is that clear cut and dry. It’s time men stop putting up… Read more »

blackconvoy
7 years ago

Here is what I have learned from my dealing with women and having female friends. The majority of the time, if you have a female friend, and this woman who is willing to spend quality time alone with you at any hour of the day, she’s DTF. It all depends on you and your game though. If you want to play that friends first route, see what happens, and then pounce when the right moment shows itself, you’re going to be left jerking yourself off every night. If your so called friend is willing to hop in a car with… Read more »

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[…] a permanent prison? The well-respected Rollo Tomassi over at The Rational Male in a post entitled Purgatory implies that the Friend Zone is inescapable. The experience of many men confirms that they […]

Francis
Francis
5 years ago

Written by Carlos >>One reason when you get put in the friend zone why you should “next” >>the girl and move on that you don’t mention is that it increases your >>value with other women. When other women see you refusing to accept >>being friend zoned, it increases your status with them. It also gives you >>more confidence and a feeling of higher intrinsic value in your dealings >>with women. Is there an article you read that in goes indepth about this. I’ve oftened wondered too if it lowers your value to be seen with a women who is telling… Read more »

parallelplace
4 years ago

Reblogged this on parallelplace.

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