Value Added

There’s nothing more refreshing for me than to read the insights of new Rational Readers. Generally it’s not that most offer anything terribly novel (some do), but it’s the predictable, persistent, feminized societal interpretations that keep reusing the same tired rationales which gives me hope that positive masculinity is cracking that shell. In other words, girl-world isn’t really coming up with anything new; it’s just retreads of old tropes.

One new Rational Reader, ‘S’ (maybe for Susan?) decided to take me to task for my graphically detailed essay on Navigating the SMP. Have Hamster, will spin.

While S suffers from the common female malady of reverse rationalizing her ‘circumstances’, she does provide a perspective on a topic I have yet to cover here in her followup response:

Fine, I read that. I just don’t agree with you philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30. What if say there were circumstances outside of her control that prevented her from getting married at what a simpleton might deem as an acceptable time…what if she never partied and slept around? There is more to a woman than physicality and it pisses me off that there are men like many of the above (bitter much?) who don’t appear to see worth in a women once her..what’s it called..sexual market value declines…it just strikes me a scarily misogynistic..like some creeped up from of American Psycho shit and it makes me scared for our society.

There is a lot to be said for developing true companionship with someone, having a kind of partner in crime relationship that endures…A woman of any age is appropriate for this.

To paraphrase Roissy’s inimitable words, the closer you get to the truth the louder the feminine will screech. As odd as this is going to sound I actually agree with most of S’s point here. You see, when I was detailing the timeline of men and women’s respective sexual market values, my intent was to provide a raw and unvarnished view of how, in contemporary social dynamics, men and women’s sexual market values differ over the course of time. I made the efforts (loose as they were) to reveal the slow-burn valuation of men’s SMV in contrast with women’s quick-burn SMV.

Emotional Response

Exposing uncomfortable truths is kind of a mixed bag when it comes to the emotional response to those truths. For instance when I read articles about feminist triumphalism regarding how much more ‘advanced’ women are over men today, or I read reviews like ‘The End of Men‘, the analytical portion of my brain gives way to the more emotive response. Why try right? If I’m obsolete, if the cards are stacked in women’s favor before I even get dealt a hand, why not go my own way? There’s a certain hopelessness to that initial emotional response, especially when there’s no hint of sympathy or contrition forthcoming from ‘powerful’ women and all the women aspiring to that empowerment. This is just how the game has shaken out, too bad for you men, you’re fucked now.

I imagine S probably feels the same way when she sees the landscape of the sexual marketplace on display in such Darwinian, graphic terms. Once you’ve hit the Wall ladies, your value begins its decline in earnest, so The Threat then becomes men becoming self-aware enough of their increasing SMV to capitalize upon his increase and your decrease accordingly. This is the nasty part of hypergamy; the countdown to the Wall is ever-present, but so is the subconsciousness-level doubt about having made the optimal hypergamic mating choice before the clock reaches zero. Every SMP opportunity after that point will always be colored by what opportunities she could’ve consolidated upon before it.

I often get called a cynic or uncaring in the delivery of my observations, but try to understand my approach is always about pragmatism. Should women’s overall value mean more than just her physicality and sexual availability? Yes, of course, just as Men’s intrinsic value ought to be more broadly appreciated for the qualities of his character and the sacrifices he makes to facilitate a woman’s reality. I would love nothing better than to think that the human spirit combined with mutual good-will and understanding could lift us above our base, innate drives. I would love to live in a world where men could get a hard-on based solely upon his estimation of a woman’s respective “worth”, and where women swoon for a humble, noble, loyal and devoted overweight and underemployed man with a negative balance in his bank account.

In the manosphere, every day I read about the conflict between what our higher selves should want in a woman. There’s no lack for articles and blog/forum responses making impassioned pleas for women’s fidelity, loyalty, intelligence, grace, femininity, appreciation, and a long list of other ephemeral qualities as being ideal for an LTR prospect. In fact I’d argue that the majority of men’s misreading women comes more from seeing past the red flags and attributing more importance to these qualities than a woman actually merits. For every divorced man who uttered the words “I never thought she was capable of this” I’ll show you a guy who rationalized his attraction to his ex based on what he thought were her ‘value added’ qualities.

Relationships – Nature and Nurture

I would never argue that a man or woman NOT aspire to be better than they are as human beings. There are always going to be human elements to any relationship that transcend what we’d expect the nature of the Game to dictate to us, but underneath that compassionate understanding, behind the flowery sentimentalism, is still the base drives, the feral hypergamy, the cruel reality of the Wall, etc. that we will never be exempt from. On Friday I’ll have been married for 16 years to a beautiful, loyal, feminine, woman. Mrs. Tomassi embodies a great many of the ideal qualities that most men would put on their LTR vetting list – she’s a great partner in crime for me, but my initial attraction to her had far less to do with those qualities and far more to do with how much she turned me on. However, as comfortable as I am with her, as intimate as we are with each other’s identities, warts and all, I still understand the base framework necessary for all of this to take place within.

A relationship based solely upon physicality and sexuality is every bit as weak as one based solely upon esoteric appreciations of ‘higher‘ value-added qualities.

The strongest, healthiest relationships are those in which both parties have a mature, mutual understanding and embrace of both the natural aspect and the nurturing aspect of the SMP. Women will never come to appreciate men’s intrinsic sacrifices made for them without coming to terms with naturalistic side of Game and the SMP. Likewise men need to come to terms with the reality of their conditioning and the fem-centric Matrix in order to appreciate the gravity of their decision to commit to a formalized monogamy / marriage. They need to appreciate the risk of the situation they find themselves in, but have hitherto ben unaware of. For both genders, coming to this understanding is often an ugly prospect.

Likewise it’s important to develop an appreciation for, and an embrace of those value-added qualities which move beyond the naturalistic side of the SMP. While being of primary importance, sex and the feral aspects of the SMP aren’t the only aspects of a healthy LTR. When it comes time to make the transition from spinning plates to informed, committed monogamy, you still have to live with that person and this is when those value-added attributes make or break the LTR.

I understand S’s and so many other women’s frustrations with the Game as it applies to women’s deficiencies. I’ve written at length about how women would rather have the Game changed to better suit their capacities to play it. In this instance S repeats a common moan in that she expects men to appreciate the ‘value added’ elements of a woman’s persona in priority to her base attractiveness. Her fears that men might adopt some policy of neglecting “quality” women in favor of “arousing” women, while understandable in terms of feminine competition anxiety, are really unfounded. If anything it’s the majority of beta men conditioned to believe that “it’s what on the inside that matters” who’ve borne the brunt of women’s social dissatisfaction for the past 40 years.

Guys don’t seek out the community because they’re getting too much pussy from being ‘Nice’ and appreciative of women’s ‘deeper’ qualities and they don’t know how to let down all these women easy. If anything compromises self-respect (assuming an AFC even has a concept of that) it’s a Scarcity/Sniper mentality. Worry less about the guys tapping their “harems” and more about the chump crucifying himself to be the martyr for his singular “dream girl”. He’s far more common.


114 responses to “Value Added

  • YOHAMI

    “I just don’t agree with you philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30.”

    They have a purpose, just little for the SMP.

    Just like unattractive creepy men, the ones she bashes – they a have purpose too, just not one that she´ll want to get involved with.

    The SMP is not about human beings.

  • Sam Spade

    This is a brilliant post. That’s all I’ll say.

  • Team-Red

    I firmly believe that some of the women that bought into feminism and went down this path are starting to realize it was a big mistake. Once they get on the other side of 30 and are finally ready to hop of the carousel, they look around and see few prospects willing to wed them. Men at this point have either married and began a family in the traditional sense or have abandoned that desire and sees no benefit to stop spinning plates. She had her chance and passed it up, her counterpart is now in his prime and slaying the puss with his red pill direct game. S is rationalizing against human nature because feminists told her that men should be attracted to her beyond youthful nurturing feminine beauty.

  • Stingray

    It all boils down to women wanting Alphas to be “appreciative of women’s ‘deeper’ qualities” doesn’t it? Women, for the most part, are not attracted to beta men. Therefore, they don’t much care if these men are appreciative of their deeper qualities or not. Sure, it’s nice to be appreciated by a man one is not attracted to, but it’s not what we are looking for. What scares women is that, if men learn to be Alpha and they can get any women they want, then men have very little reason to look for those inner qualities anymore, unless the man chooses to. There is very little reason these days to choose to do that. If few men choose to do that, there will be no quality men to compete for. And after 30, with so few men to compete for, your nearly completely out of the running. Damn scary stuff, that is.

  • nexus

    nice work, thanks.

  • GeishaKate

    Yes, they do have a purpose. Its to raise the children they should have had in their twenties.

  • GeishaKate

    Sometimes when my daughter is away I get a chance to do the things I like to do and I make the most of every minute; but, other times, I have this sense of uselessness, like, what do I do now? I can’t imagine feeling like that all the time. Its sad. There’s a limited time to have children. There’s plenty of other time to do and accomplish the things you want to accomplish. Unfortunately, most people need to experience things for themselves to believe them. So this generation of women, influenced by their feminist mothers, has missed the boat and won’t have children. That should mean that the women having children will pass on the value of having children to their children and perhaps things will be sorted out in another generation.

  • jbaee

    The key thing few women realize is that they are selling themselves in a lemons market where women are easily distinguished into two groups: women over 30 and women under 30. (They can and are subdivided much more than that, but old/young is a good starting point).

    The key thing about this lemons market is that you can test drive the product a fair bit (dating, relationships).

    Available women in their 20s have been test driven some, but there is still a lot of uncertainty about their performance. They could be crappy deals, but they could also be valuable deals who have not yet been taken off the market.

    Women in their 30s have generally been test driven a fair amount, and in many cases have been bought (married), found out as a lemon, and sold (divorce). As it turns out, lemons are quite willing to announce themselves as lemons by divorcing, confident that they can camouflage themselves among the few quality women who divorce bad men. Few quality women divorce, so the ranks of 30s women are largely filled with lemons who selected themselves out of marriage, and lemons who were bad enough that they were never sold in the first place.

    Because they can sense the wall coming, ALL of those women have incentives to portray themselves as quality women who were undiscovered by men, divorced themselves from bad men, or were naive women who have learned and become quality women, REGARDLESS OF THEIR TRUE NATURE AS LEMONS. The few legitimately quality women in their 30s are surrounded by lemons pretending to be quality women.

    Now, look at the man’s side. He can date among two groups:

    20s women
    Have youth and beauty. 60% quality, 40% lemons. About 1/2 of the lemons will actively avoid being purchased, and when faced with marriage, will instead choose to continue bedhopping. Most quality women receive a decent marriage proposal and accept it. 80% of 20s women get married. Out of the 20% who don’t, lets say it consists of 5% quality women, 15% lemons.

    30s women
    Have experience and confidence. Of the never-marrieds, 25% quality, 75% lemons. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt, and say 20% of the lemons become quality women, leaving a 40%/60% breakdown. Of divorced women, 25% are quality, 75% are lemons. Assuming the number of never-marrieds is about the same as the number of divorcees, this leaves a total of about 33% quality women, 66% lemons. About 3/4 of the lemons will willingly marry when given the opportunity, saddling the man with her bad self (and probably a divorce and alimony down the way).

    Lets sum it up. Assuming a completely ignorant man who can’t test drive the women, if he randomly selects women and tries to marry them, he has a 69% chance of marrying a quality woman if he only dates women in their 20s. If he only dates women in their 30s, he has a 40% chance of marrying a quality woman.

    His chances of marrying a lemon go from 31% to 60%–they double! All from choosing to date women past a certain age.

    Older women can talk until they are blue in the face about the qualities they have to offer. Men instinctively know their odds are better going with young women, so when an offer comes to seriously test-drive an older woman, men of quality will generally ignore that offer.

  • Senior Beta

    One of your better essays. And I could understand it since no “scemas” or “normatives.” Also like the lemon analogy. Good way to start the week.

  • koevoet

    I haven’t read the whole thing yet…actually I haven’t gotten past the first line. But I have to ask…Is the picture photoshopped? Please, please, please, tell me that it is? I beg you?

    If not, how hard would it be to change legislation to let us burn people at the stake again? I promise we won’t abuse it, just when it really need to be done.

  • Coy

    Exactly, All the “value added” stuff is built upon attraction. If a fat chick had every “value added” quality, would you pair bond with her?There’s a reason its called “value added”.
    @jbaee
    Nice analysis.Men know this instinctively and women cant comprehend numbers…… so a futile effort ? heheh…just kidding.

    I can’t believe people missed this…but Rollo since you won’t be posting this friday …….. CONGRATULATIONS for clocking 16 years.You are the “cool skirt chasing player-uncle figure” I never had.

  • Phinn

    Who wouldn’t appreciate the opportunity for a little light reading while you’re pounding a woman from behind?

    Maybe, instead of tattoos, women could have some kind of image-display system on their lower backs, like a projection or a second skin that displays videos and sporting events.

    This is a billion-dollar idea, people. Pearls, that’s what I’m dropping here.

  • John Galt

    I almost made a terrible mistake of marrying a 38 year old woman and luckily caught it before it was too late. My recent exposure to the manosphere confirmed my (correct) decision.

    My recent experience – I am 38, never married, live in large U.S. city. While on business in another city, I ran into a former class mate from high school. In high school, she was a HB9 with an attitude. I was Joe Average with lots of potential (or so I viewed myself) and I would have eaten my left ball off to have sex with her in 1991. Flash forward 20 years, she is still sexy, though at 38 has dropped to a HB7 (body still good, face is aging more rapidly than the national debt). Now with my SMV peaking (before I knew of such a thing), she was ALL over me, both in terms of sex and wanting a serious relationship. Over the next couple months, my mind still saw her as the HB9 I could never get in high school and I punished her thoroughly (“punish” is a term I use for sex) every other weekend (10-12x per weekend) to relive my high school fantasies. And all the while she was catching me up on her life over the previous 20 years, including but not limited too:

    • Married and divorced
    • Has a kid
    • Cheated on husband during last year of marriage because she hasn’t haaaaaappy
    • The other man got her pregnant but she “miscarried”
    • Bulimic in college
    • Heavy drug user for over 10 years (coke, X, etc) during her 20’s
    • “Abandonment issues” regarding her divorced parents
    • Has seen a shrink off and on for most of her adult life

    Most of you reading this are probably screaming at the computer screen “Run, Johnny, Run!!!”. But I was seeing her through the lens of my foggy 17 year old kid glasses and continued the relationship. What finally woke me up? After about 6 months of dating she told me she was getting sick in the morning for about a week. She said she thought she might be pregnant but got a test and it was negative. I was (obviously) relieved but her comment was “you know, it would have been ok if the test was yes”. Immediately, the foggy lenses cleared up and I saw her for what was – a 38 year old wrinkly former beauty queen trapping (enslaving) a successful businessman for a better life (i.e. someone to fund her lifestyle). I was almost fooled but I found my way at the end.

    Gentlemen – just another situation/circumstance to look out for.

    John

  • YOHAMI

    What she needs to put back there is an ipad with a netflix subscription.

  • Phinn

    Here’s a proposal for “S” — I’ll apologize for every man who has ever experienced reduced sexual attraction to women over the age of 30 in exchange for an apology for every woman who has experienced reduced sexual attraction to beta men who provide resources but insufficient excitement.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    John, glad all that worked out for you. Don’t take this as a burn, but your story is an excellent example of relying on an Adolescent Social Skill set.

    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/the-adolescent-social-skill-set/

    I caught a lot of shit from critics thinking my definition of maturity was subjective to my own bias, but your story is a much better example of what my outline was about. You don’t have to be retarded in other social contexts to be reliant upon an adolescent frame of reference when it comes to intergender social dynamics.

    You can be a successful, capable, mature businessman and still have that adolescent experience define how you deal with women for the course of a lifetime.

    Again, glad you sorted it out before the regret.

  • koevoet

    Rollo, I’ve read the whole thing now. Great piece.

    But…I had really been hoping that was photoshopped.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    c’mon now, it’s an act of ‘devotion’ right?

  • Barry

    So let me get this right. I should appreciate old women for their non-looks based value. Just as they appreciated me in my nice guy 20’s……..oh no they were fucking the nasty boys and leaving me alone.

    So fuck them…..and just laugh at them. There is nothing funnier than an old ugly trying to relive her youth……hahhahhhahhhahhha.

  • GeishaKate

    That is very insightfully broken down.

  • koevoet

    Perhaps you are right and I was jumping the gun on burning her. There is a way to determine this, though. I say we through her into the river and see if she floats, then I shall decide weather floating means it was an act devotion or a sign of witchcraft. We’ll get to the bottom of this!

  • Jon

    Great post. Really things are so stacked against average males these days when they’re young what with social conventions,schooling and laws favoring the poor oppressed cupcakes that if average women can’t capitalize on their assets and lockdown some good guys in the 20s how can they possibly complain if the same guys turn around 10 years later and play them at the game the girls were playing 10 years before!

  • John Galt

    No burn taken. And to be clear, the adolescent experience defined how I was with her specifically, not women in general. I consider myself lower Alpha and usually spin plates (before I even heard of the term you coined) and keep options open. But it only takes one woman to trip you up.

    I just discovered your blog Rollo, top shelf material. “Myth of the Lonely Old Man” is one of my favorites. Hopefully I can add value through comments about my prior experiences.

    John

  • koevoet

    Jon, that’s one of the great things about finding the manosphere. A guy in his 20’s (I’m 27, BTW) can really develop a depressing world view. I stayed in a three year relationship that was harming both of us just because I thought it was better than being alone. I figured that at 30 I was doomed. I had seriously put though into joining a monastery. Yeah, hitting the wall sucks for women, but understanding the SMP can help them as well. If more women started seriously looking to settle down earlier in life, it would be better for men in their 20’s and for the same women once they hit their 30’s.

  • Jon

    Marriage only works for guys if you’re very young, very old, or very poor or your wife to be is very rich, otherwise it’s a no-brainer in my book – you loose frame far more easily and all the women these days seem to love their daily dose of divorce porn fantasy… Even cohabiting now has an extremely high risk in many States /Western Countries. No marriage as a cast iron rule and you can’t go wrong.

  • Senior Beta

    What a thread! Now I have two heroes named John Galt.

  • Jon

    Exactly. It’s great so much information, advice and experience is freely shared for the benefit of others. And, as Rollo stated previously, at no small risk given how things are these days.

    The trouble is women aren’t rational though – it’s candy today and candy tomorrow – but just play the game according to the rules.

  • Jon

    Or rather new rules!

  • Sword

    I recently hung out with one of my friends and her dyed-in-the-wool feminizations were humorous, among the gems:

    Guys like girls who play hard to get

    (and my favorite)

    ‘dont you realize, 30 is the new 20′ (she is borderline wall)

  • jlw

    Speaking of hitting the Wall unprepared and for what happens after, here is where the lifelong irrecoverable omegas of both genders have an advantage. It’s almost like the old sit-com/stand-up trope of the person going to hell and being led around by the old timer. Except here, it’s the omega showing the new person, more often a woman because their SMV high is higher, typically, and drops like the first hill on the Beast (google it)at King’s Island into a tunnel. Except at the end of this tunnel is not the sun and the rest of a fun ride, but rather the hell of permanent SMV irrelevance and a lifelong omega to show them around it:

    “Hey there! Welcome to SMV Hell. I’m your guide, 42-year-old virgin jlw. Let me show you around. Here’s your room over here, just over that tributary of the Styx, the deNile. Here’s your cot where you’ll be sleeping alone for the rest of eternity. Here’s a group of people in similar shape, ready to join you in blaming others. Here’s the chow hall where you can dine on self-help bromides likes “It’s what is inside that counts!” and such. Afterwards, you can sit around the fires of dispair and insult each other’s intelligence by claiming that there aren’t hopeless sexual omegas and that being fabulously single or using Game (for the men who had SMV and lost it on the tour) will help. Don’t worry – give it a few decades, you’ll get well used to it. I did.”

  • Doc

    “I just don’t agree with you(r) philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30.”

    I do not believe that was the “point” of what was said – but simply the fact that once a woman goes past 30, her SMV plummets – whereas a man’s is still going up. I would expect women to complain about this fact being pointed out so blatantly – that doesn’t make it untrue, only annoying to women who are up against that wall…

    I was at a retirement dinner for a friend not that long ago, and her younger sister – whom I had bedded long ago when she was in her teens was there. While I could remember the raw excitement she used to inspire in me – at almost 45, she was an “average” older woman who is divorced – with no children. I could still see a hint of the beauty she once had, but that was long ago…

    Now I’m pushing 50, yet at this dinner party I was chatting up some of the young (early-20’s) co-workers of my friend and since I was there for several days after the retirement dinner, I had the opportunity of getting to know several of them, and took one out to dinner with the group later that weekend after having spent the evening with her, after hitting it off when she showed me “what the town has to offer”.

    I learned afterwards that my friend’s younger sister was “hurt” to see me dating a so much younger woman. Apparently she decided to attend only when she found out that I would be there, and found that I was still single and enjoyed more than a bit of success financially. And while that 5 years between us was wonderful when I was in my early 20’s, now she was “too old” for my tastes. And that is all it is, my tastes…

    But it is those tastes that matter to me – and simply put, I like the silky smooth skin of a 20 year old, over the wrinkled, leathery texture of a 45 year old… That doesn’t say she isn’t worthwhile, or perhaps an amazing woman – she just doesn’t excite me, and that is what matters to me… And to me, that is ALL that matters when it comes to women – I don’t discriminate based on color, creed, or financial situation – if she excites me, I’ll date her, and bed her… Women tend to have a lot of other criteria which enter into the picture – unfortunately, my very limited criteria are immutable… So at almost 50, I’m still excited by the same types of women I was at 20 – you can fault me for it, but it doesn’t change that simple fact.

  • Rooster

    “Guys don’t seek out the community because they’re getting too much pussy from being ‘Nice’ and appreciative of women’s ‘deeper’ qualities and they don’t know how to let down all these women easy”

    Haha! That made me properly laugh out loud.

  • feral1404

    “Marriage is a young man’s curse and an old man’s comfort.” I’ve heard that thrown about by my old man for as long as I can remember.

  • YaReally

    Fucking epic dodge! Congrats.

  • AD

    Hey Rollo,

    Why don’t you write a post about how a man seeing pictures of his current wife or GF sucking some guys cock might change his opinion about her. This is especially relevant since the explosion of cheap digital cameras and the internet in the last decade has created an amazing opportunity to find and share such intimate moments.

  • SpecialK

    “So let me get this right. I should appreciate old women for their non-looks based value. Just as they appreciated me in my nice guy 20′s……..oh no they were fucking the nasty boys and leaving me alone.”

    This is the core of the issue. As a man, I do appriciate the non-looks value of older women. I’d LOVE to have Betty White or Cloris Leachman in my social circle. But I have zero interest in dating or fucking them because they don’t turn me on.

    I assume the reverse is *probably* true of women. On some level, women see white-knights as having value. They just don’t see it as sexual value, which is why guys like that don’t get laid.

  • martaj1618

    Reblogged this on Blyad.

  • immoralgables

    This and John Galts stories were the most Interesting comments.

    Rollo, because of your efforts I no longer fear being sIngle. As a man in his mid-twenties, reading your opinions and stories like the one above make me realize that I have much to look forward to as Long as I don’t stagnate.

    That right there is enough to give me confidence day to do; more so than I usually would. For a relatively younger man like myself it is a great feeling to realize your value and that all things equal, you are an appreciating asset.

    This mindset would not have occurred without your help and the help of other commenters and bloggers. Stay up.

    -IG

  • 39joshua

    Yes, this was a good essay, rather Niebuhrian actualy (as in Reinhold Niebuhr, the great American theologian of the 20th century).

  • Apollo

    This comment from S seems to typify the Femnist/Liberal perspective that things, especially when it comes to women getting what they want, should be “fair”. It’s not fair that men wont be interested in a woman if she’s not young and attractive, men should appreciate her for her deeper qualities, for her unique and special self. It’s actually the same way that beta men think that women should appreciate them for their niceness and their willingness to treat women “right”.

    The unfortunate thing is though, that life isn’t fair, and that neither strategy works. Men are finding this out earlier than women, because a mans SMV is nearly non existent when his desire is the highest, creating a great incentive to face reality, and womens SMV is at it’s highest when they are coming of age, giving them the ability to delude themselves while they enjoy the fun ride that their early peak in value gives them. And this delusion seems to persist to a great extent with them as they get older… maybe it’s impossible to come back to earth after living so many of your formative adult years in the clouds. It’s a shame, but I don’t think that there will be a great deal of sympathy coming from many men…

  • S

    I’m delighted that my comment provoked such a response.

    First of all, I am in my twenties and as I have commented in the previous post..began a relationship in my late teens with a man I eventually became incompatible with (we both changed a large amount in eight years, as you do). I didn’t leave him to jump on any sort of “cock carousel”..the decision was mutual.

    Now I see a lot of comments up above that are pretty nasty. This one in particular:

    “YOHAMI

    July 16th, 2012 at 11:48 am
    “I just don’t agree with you philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30.”
    They have a purpose, just little for the SMP.
    Just like unattractive creepy men, the ones she bashes – they a have purpose too, just not one that she´ll want to get involved with.
    The SMP is not about human beings.”….

    Now I do not know about every single other women but I do not or have not bashed any creepy men and do not plan to do so when I hit 30. Additionally, claiming (like many here) that a woman suddenly after 30 becomes unattractive (visited by the ugly fairly overnight to have her luscious features replaced by that of Jocelyn Wildenstein)…is a bit much, that is the impression that I am getting.

    Now I do understand that there are some women who behave inappropriately only to later expect a wealthy McMillion to sweep her away on a magic carpet..granted. I also understand that many men have been hurt by the behaviour and rejections of such women. One of the largest points that I am trying to make is that not all women are the same. If you wish to even look at it from a purely physical standpoint…not all women age at the same rate either.

    Anyhow, if I do not happen to find an appropriate suitor by the age of 30, I will be coming back for my noose.

    (And for your information, I define an appropriate suitor as someone compassionate, loving and respectful).

  • Rollo Tomassi

    S, what I think you’re failing to grasp is the difference between what you’d like to be appreciated for and the realities of the environment you’re actually functioning in.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about relational equity:
    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/05/21/relational-equity/

    Neither does the SMP care about how wonderful a person you think you are and should be appreciated for in spite of the SMP’s strictures.

    That’s the harsh reality of it. All I do is hold up a mirror, you have to want to look.

  • S

    No Rollo, I do appreciate what you are saying and I am aware that men are more looks orientated than women would like.

    Just when I think of that term of the sexual market place..I just get this visual of a cowboy in a field full of cattle, pointing at one and going “I’ll have that one”.

    I understand that people cannot help what they are attracted to..so if a man chooses a woman based primarily on her physical attributes..what does he do when she declines? Trade up? Take a mistress? It almost makes me reluctant to use the physical attributes I have now to get into a new committed relationship.

  • Rock Throwing Peasant

    (And for your information, I define an appropriate suitor as someone compassionate, loving and respectful).

    You define it that way…now, because you’re closing in on the wall.

    To put it another way, you passed by many, man guys who were very compassionate, loving and respectful in your 20s. However, they weren’t tall anough, or exciting enough, or athletic enough, or…

    No, you had a chance to go for the men with hearts of gold and you never gave them a second look.

    Those “nice guys” who were absolutely fantastic friends to guys like me, but were too chubby, too short, or too “nice” (“Let’s just be friends” ring a bell?) are now approaching their 30s and are supposed to marry/commit to the women that scorned them just a few years ago? Heck, why buy that cow?

  • S

    No, if you read the above entry properly, I was in a relationship for 8 years…to a “nice guy”. I have’t been passing up offer upon offer because I haven’t had the chance. Do the math.

  • S

    Pardon me, my mistake. I didn’t mention 8 years here, I mentioned in the previous post.

  • YOHAMI

    What’s the story with the nice guy, you got dumped?

  • YOHAMI

    “I just get this visual of a cowboy in a field full of cattle, pointing at one and going “I’ll have that one”.”

    More like this, a hundred cowboys, a hundred cows, 80% of the cows want the same cowboy, that cowboy picks one, or two, or all of them. The rest of the cowboys are left blueballs. The rest of the cows wonder where all the good cowboys are.

    Eventually cows settle and cowboys think they got lucky. But the settlement isnt strong, and the luck isnt so.

  • S

    Bit of a personal question there Yohami.

    “First of all, I am in my twenties and as I have commented in the previous post..began a relationship in my late teens with a man I eventually became incompatible with (we both changed a large amount in eight years, as you do). I didn’t leave him to jump on any sort of “cock carousel”..the decision was mutual”..

    That should answer your question as sufficiently as I’m willing to on a public forum. And I did mention 8 years..whoops. Dayum. Not sharp today.

  • YOHAMI

    ok, what was the age gap?

  • YOHAMI

    And “mutual” usually means it was your idea ;-)

  • koevoet

    RTP – In her defense: “First of all, I am in my twenties and as I have commented in the previous post..began a relationship in my late teens with a man I eventually became incompatible with (we both changed a large amount in eight years, as you do). I didn’t leave
    him to jump on any sort of “cock carousel”..the decision was mutual.”

    I really don’t want to know all the details of her relationship, but if she was passing up the ‘nice guys’ throughout her 20’s…it would be a sign of loyalty. The question is, is the guy she wasted (sorry to use a harsh word, S, but it is what it is) eight years of her life with some alpha dude or was he one of the nice guys? If she was with one of the “nice guys” and stayed loyal to one of the nice guys for eight years, I don’t see how this could be indicative of any character flaws, in and of itself.

    S- The thing with the SMP is, it is a cold, numerical sort of thing. It is devoid of compassion. If a rock falls on you, physics doesn’t give a shit about your personality or your looks, only that F=ma. The SMP is he same way. You can find a man in your 30’s, hell you can possibly find a decent one. But you CANNOT bank on it. That is what understanding the SMP is all about. You must be aware of it just like men must be aware of hypergamy, or suffer the consequences.

  • koevoet

    Most of my points have been touched on. Apparently I type way too slow!

  • GeishaKate

    HI S,
    I was in a relationship all of my twenties with my ex-husband. We met in the summer before I turned twenty. We do have a child together; she’s five. So, in some ways I can relate to your situation, and it others mine is different, since I am not necessarily looking to have more children, although, when I first got divorced I had more hope that was still possible.

    First of all, I think its great that you ended up at this blog. There is a lot of excellent discussion and insight that goes on here. While at times it may be hard to view it this way, the men here, much like big brothers, are trying to teach you something to actually help you out. It may feel as though you don’t need help, but what they are talking about is very true in general though there are, of course, exceptions to everything.

    May I ask how you ended up here and what your relationship goals are?

    – GeishaKate :)

  • Apollo

    I think you’re misinterpreting the “Sexual Marketplace” idea. It’s essentially an Economics analogy, where two parties trade so that each ends up with something that they value more than what they give up. And the more value you can bring to the table, the more you can expect in return for it. BOTH sides need to give and receive, and BOTH sides are both buyers and sellers, it’s not just men “buying” women.

    If we apply it to your cowboys and cattle metaphor, if the cowboy wanted a particular very high quality cow, he would need to “pay” more for it than he would for a lower quality cow. There is no such thing as a free lunch (cow) in the SMP. These prize cows can actually exercise choice, and may only go with cowboys who have particularly large ranches, or a big hat, or whatever. And at this point the cowboy and cattle metaphor starts to fall apart…

    The SMP is not a particularly “nice” idea. Definitely not PC. But it is accurate, ugly reality. And a fact that you seem to be missing is that it bites both ways. Us men are not alone in applying these seemingly shallow superficial standards in mate choice. The women who have the highest SMV, those who have the youth and beauty that men desire most are not exactly lining up to be with meek and poor, but nice, loyal, dependable men of good character. And is that wrong? No, not really. Men and women like what they like, it’s biological. The problems only come when we try and mislead people about the reality of this situation and don’t try and curb the excesses of both men and women’s sexual behavior.

    Many men have experienced a whole lot of angst from the believing the widely promoted and very misleading idea that women like nice guys, who buy them things, listen to them, and treat them like princesses. In a similar way, women are also being mislead, by the claim that they can wait for decades before marriage and children without consequences. It can be hard to let go of such painful but pretty lies, but it’s really in your best interest to face reality.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Why be so graphic? Sometimes all it takes is a simple expression,…

    http://lmao.co/wp-content/uploads/duckface.jpg

  • S

    Thank you GeishaKate,

    To answer your questions..1) I ended up here just browsing Google Search for more information on dating. I understand that I should try to get myself back out there and I feel clueless..2) My relationship goals are..well, not to sound gooey, I want to be responsible for making someone happy again. And I want to be happy with someone who’s both my friend and more. I do realize that there out ways to do this outside of the relationship sphere..but I am also aware that I if I want the above..it’s wise to recommence now, in my twenties.

    By no means do I regret giving those years to that person. He is still a “nice guy” and I am sure he will have no problem finding someone special. To respond to Yohami the age gap was just one year. We were childhood sweethearts, each others “firsts”..in the end we couldn’t make it work because too much change occurs between your teens and mid-twenties..we were entirely different people by the end and exhausted every option in terms of trying to salvage what we had romantically. That is all I’ll say on that.

    Anyhow, I lack experience and I am afraid that it will be of detriment to me before I hit this ominous “Wall”.

  • YOHAMI

    One year gap, first of each other – this is sounding more and more like a truly nice guy love story -> until boredom breaks them apart. I take you’re about 24 now?

    I like what you said, being responsible of making someone else happy and being with someone who’s your friend and more. Aight.

    But are you looking to get married and build a lifelong partnership? or, you’re looking for a special spark and nurture it and see where it goes?

    Hint: the second one is the “carousel”

  • S

    I’m not going to give away my exact age (not out of insecurity..out of security more than anything)…but I will say I’m at the shittier end of the twenties. I took time out to heal after the relationship breakdown. I do get asked out and have tried a bit of dating but I’m intimidated by it…so I’m not entirely truthful I guess when I say that I haven’t said “no” to people. It’s more out of fear than being ruthless in the pursuit of an “alpha male”.

    I do want to have children..marriage not entirely..a committed long term relationship would..certainly. I am not after anyone’s money..I am college educated and able to stand on my own two feet.

    I think I would certainly begin with “a special spark and nurture it and see where it goes?”.

  • S

    When I pick that second option I mean…I am not going to mention marriage and lifelong partnership only into a few dates. I think most special relationships begin with a spark (there does have to be SOMETHING there on both sides)…and see how it goes..or: have women been cultured to believe that this is how it goes?

    Like I said, I am inexperienced.

    Don’t worry, I have no intentions of jumping on any carousel.. intentionally. I value my body and wouldn’t give it away to just any Tom, Dick (pardon the pun) or Harry.

  • YOHAMI

    That’s the thing. You either screen for a spark or you screen for lifelong commitment. You can make the spark the most important subsection after the lifelong commitment criteria has met, but, without it:

    Looking for the spark creates serial monogamy. You feel great with a guy, try it out, then he doesnt want to commit, or you dont, or he finds someone hotter, or you feel a stronger spark with someone else. Then in between relationships you feel a strong spark with a random stranger and you get sweept off your feet.

    That’s the world I live in. And it’s called “the cock carousel” in the manosphere.

    The big distinction is that the character traits that create “spark” usually also make the guy unsuitable for lifelong commitment.

    After you cross the 30 year and hit the wall, you´ll find that you cant generate enough spark with the guys you feel spark with. And it will go downhill from there on.

    Then you will regret and yada yada, and dream about the two or three big sparks that you couldnt keep.

    In comparison, girls who screen for commitment + spark are better off in the long run. It’s not a small distinction. Its different to be looking for a spark, than it is to be looking for a lifelong partner / husband.

    The spark criteria is more relaxed and fits better with the current order of things.

    Re. your personal info: Im asking so I understand where you’re coming from, but I dont have any particular interest on you personally. This is strictly about the subject.

  • YOHAMI

    The spark IS the carousel baby.

  • S

    OK..this information will be of use. :)

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Not to gouge you in any way (you seem sincere), but have you read the follow up to Navigating the SMP?

    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/smv-in-girl-world/

  • S

    Thanks Yohami, still somewhat away from thirty but as always it’s good to think ahead.

    I will have a look at this, Rollo. Thank you.

  • koevoet

    I think what Yohami is driving at is that the spark is something you feel. Feelings change, or could be inaccurate from the get go. No, don’t bring up marriage and babies on the first couple of dates. That will scare many guys off who will think you’re off kilter, and conversely, many of the guys who would be receptive to this are themselves off kilter. Screening for marriage worthy traits is something that needs to happen in your head. Is this guy stable? Is he going to be loyal? What is he bringing to the table and is this someone that you will be willing to be loyal to for the rest of your life? You may even have to reject men who you “feel the spark for” if you see massive red flags.
    I have a very close friend who has gone the serial monogamy route. She recently turned thirty. I have known her since her early twenties. Some of the guys she dated had red flags, and by red flags I mean Moscow on May 9th! She is with a guy now, living together, and by all outward appearances he seems pretty decent. But she has gone through some major dry spells and some pretty shitty times. Spare yourself this. I wish I had heard what Yohami is saying five years ago so I could have passed the info on to my friend.

  • immoralgables

    Hold up S

    you fear giving up too many details give me a break. You have no avatar pic and your username reveals scant info so relax a little.

    Your “mutual” reasons for ending it sound just like the backward rationalizations that occur when a girl loses attraction to his nice guy boyfriend. I’ve seen it before, heard it before an been through it before. Let’s call a spade a spade but if you’re still opening your eyes to the reality of the way things are then I understand; it takes time to get rid of the delusions and rationalizations.

    Cheers to you for coming here and putting yourself out there. Do not be scared away, reading your posts helps me learn about that type of mindset and helps me to spot the rationalizing that I used to believe oh so wholeheartedly.

    -Yohami

    I enjoyed reading the cowboys metaphor good stuff. And
    I agree that when a girl says the breakup was mutual, she usually ended it.

  • immoralgables

    *to her nice guy boyfriend

  • S

    immoralgables,

    I am not here for your benefit and having read that made me wonder whether I should continue posting. I am here because I am trying to understand what is going on in the dating world and gain insight. Rationalizations?

    “reading your posts helps me learn about that type of mindset and helps me to spot the rationalizing that I used to believe oh so wholeheartedly”?

    I do not have to try to prove to you or anyone that the decision was mutual. Believe what you want.

    Just because we didn’t marry doesn’t mean that I should be doomed to spinsterhood and it certainly does not make me a bad person.

  • S

    Thank you koevoet,

    “You may even have to reject men who you “feel the spark for” if you see massive red flags”..

    I liked this.

  • GeishaKate

    S,
    I never really dated and don’t in fact really believe in it. But, yes, I certainly identify with feeling clueless. You’ll want to take my advice with a grain of salt as I am still learning myself, but I can share the path I’ve taken. Here are some books you may find beneficial: Dating with Drama (Paige Parker), The Rules (you’d probably like it cause its very strict and you sound like you hold yourself to high standards), Why Men Marry Bitches (Sherry Argov), Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus/ Mars and Venus on a Date (John Gray). Almost all of his books are good. The only way to gain experience is to, well, experience things. But books are good for doing that vicariously. Reading the perspective of men for a while will really make all of this information come together as you truly begin to see things from their perspective. Stick to your values and learn all you can. Don’t be afraid to make little mistakes, just try to avoid the big ones :)

  • GeishaKate

    HAHAHA! That book title is Dating WithOUT Drama. lol

  • GeishaKate

    You definitely want to reject those guys. Because, really, S, what this site and many others with similar ideologies attempt to teach is that biology drives our behaviors. Once your biology kicks in, you can really be at its mercy and find yourself attached to someone you don’t even want to be anymore. Inexperience is both a wonderful thing in that you can really value and appreciate the new experiences you have, but it is also usually very heavily guarded because it can be exploited.

  • GeishaKate

    S,
    And one last thing as you may be getting overwhelmed by information and need to take a processing break, this article and blog may be helpful to you.

    http://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/a-guide-to-entering-the-manosphere-for-women/

    -GeishaKate :)

  • S

    Freudian slip (just kidding ;) )?

    Thanks. I just feel uncomfortable blindly going in. I am glad this “spark” thing was mentioned here because I would have never thought that to be something to watch out for.

    I am not looking for an “alphamale” type..not out of settling because I have been asked out by a few “alphamales” since and have said “no” flat out. Not interested in being a notch on a bedpost or a “pump and dump”.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    “Alpha male” is not synonymous with “pump & dump”

    Trust me, you’re very much interested in an Alpha, it’s hard-coded into your psyche.

  • Retrenched

    ^^ RTP wins.

  • S

    Can you elaborate Rollo on the first statement?

    On the second..I’m not entirely sure what your definition of an alphamale is but I am assuming it’s an attractive, high achieving man with status and popularity or some variation of that?

  • S

    Haha Retrenched…have you even read any of my posts?

  • D-Man

    Interesting that the language of young plugged-in betas and aging women is so similar. (“I’m a good perrrson”… etc).

    You’d think they’d make a good match for each other, since they share so many feeeelings. But how rarely we see that actually happen and stick.

  • S

    OK, I think that I have said my part. I have laid out my story and have gained some knowledge. I will continue reading the comments but I don’t think I have further to add. I can see this escalating into something unpleasant.

    I’m off to do something productive with my final years of twentie-ness.

  • koevoet

    Hopefully you’ve learned something useful. I’d recommend going through the back log of older posts. Most of them on here will be of some benefit, I know they were to me.

    Best of luck!

  • S

    Oh and thank you to those who have tried to help..^^^…digested and appreciated.

    x

  • Joe

    >>>The women who have the highest SMV, those who have the youth and beauty that men desire most are not exactly lining up to be with meek and poor, but nice, loyal, dependable men of good character.

    Sorry, I call BS on that. They generally don’t care about nice & loyal & dependable, though when it’s beta time they’ll settle for it. They’re lining up with the guys who will give them the best combination of rock’em sock’em hay rolling, and financial stability. When they can’t get a pro basketball player (worth more in the divorce settlement than the marriage) they’ll settle for a highly productive beta who isn’t completely repulsive looking.

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  • Apollo

    You misunderstood my statement. I’m saying that women don’t line up to be with men who are meek, poor AND nice, loyal dependable men of good character. The nice, loyal, dependable characteristics that society tells us women like don’t attract women when they have their pick of men to choose from, although they may accept them as value adds on a man who already gives them the tingles.

  • S

    Can I actually ask…what exactly is “The Wall”…to you guys. My loose interpretation of it was always when a woman “loses her looks”…but I didn’t think this happened until later in life, I know many attractive 30-33 year olds that have their pick of the day and woulld put many a girl in her twenties to shame. Genuinely. So I can only assume that your (the forums) definition is the transition between 29 and 30?

  • Apollo

    Yeah, when a woman loses her looks is a fair enough definition, but there’s also perhaps some connotations to a ticking biological clock in there too. And also maybe a tendency to change in their taste in men to reflect their diminishing beauty.

    Many who use the term seem to think that this starts to happen at around 30, but don’t get too hung up on that specific number, because as you said women do tend to age at different rates. I do think that you might be overestimating the amount of women in their thirties who would put your average girl in her twenties to shame though. While I would agree they do exist, I don’t think they are that common, and they probably either have great (and rare) genes or work very hard to be that attractive.

  • S

    Yeah, it’s a term I have seen before arriving at this blog but have never heard in reality. I always attributed it to a woman losing her looks but to place it at exactly 30 seems to me to be too precise a calculation…as there are many variable to be taken into consideration I would imagine. For example, a party girl, serial tanner and smoker could probably lose her looks long before she reaches 30 whereas a clean living late bloomer might not even realize her potential until her mid to late twenties. I’ve seen women from my school..the most popular girls (with guys) changed the most in a negative manner and the nerds or just the most unexpected girls have become more attractive over the years. It’s freaking odd.

  • Apollo

    Yes, I’ve never heard the term outside of the Manosphere really, not in the MSM or in real life, but it’s quite commonly used here.

    And yes, clean living does make a difference in how women age. Tanning especially does a real number on women.

    And I think the reason why the people who were unattractive when they were in high school sometimes get better looking when they get a bit older is because they are given the incentive to work for it, and to improve themselves. I think having it too easy in high school is a real detriment to a lot of people’s development. I’ve certainly noticed this myself in people I knew in high school. One girl in particular I knew who was absolutely gorgeous in high school, an easy 9, had turned into a complete train wreck only six years later, when she was still in her early twenties, and still should have been hot. However, another girl who I saw at my ten year reunion, who wasn’t at all bad in school had gotten a lot better looking.

    So it can happen, but in general it is usually men who get better looking when aging past their mid twenties, a woman who manages this is definitely bucking the trend.

  • S

    There is the contrast aspect..meaning if the woman looks better in the later years compared to how she used to look (ugly duckling) of course you will think of her as better looking.

    However, I know a woman who looked like a child literally..until she hit her early twenties. She looks a large amount better now having lost her facial baby fat in addition to gaining curves. I glad of this because she was often overlooked by guys in favor of the more “sexy” girls who have since declined (we all deserve our peak)..I think many good looking women in their early twenties do not see beyond a point where they won’t have their beauty and as a result develop some weird form of a “Peter Pan” complex believing that they can tan, drink, chain smoke without consequences…they do not feel the impacts of their decisions immediately. Conversely you have girls so terrified of losing it that they will undergo minor procedures prematurely (Botox for example) and as a result permanently destroy their beautiful faces or bodies.

    The wisest girls stay healthy, informed, avoid bad habits and maximize their look. These are the ones who can hold onto their looks significantly longer. Add decent genes into the mix and you’re onto a winner.

  • YOHAMI

    Im sure these exist but that’s not how it work for most women. Most unattractive 32s+ something women I know were ten times more attractive 10-12 years ago, it’s just how it is. Some of them still can pull the strings for casual sex, but they have to switch to way less attractive men for relationships = the wall.

  • S

    “Most unattractive 32s+ something women I know were ten times more attractive 10-12 years ago”

    Unattractive or attractive?

    No, I see what you mean, there would be a contrast appearance wise between a 24 year old and a 32 year old woman on the basis of hormonal alterations and normal wear and tear alone. I hope to be off the market years before that point.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    You’re never off the market.

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