Appeals to Reason

thinker

“A woman in love can’t be reasonable, otherwise she wouldn’t be in love”
— Mae West

Last week The Chateau posted an article about a Beta male asking girls for reasons why they rejected him. In the typical deductive logic that most Betas are prone to use, he runs down a checklist of questions regarding what he thinks killed his chances with the girls he thought he could get with. He petitions four women with questions about themselves, which, being women, all are more than eager to answer.

Do you usually figure out if you wanna do more than make out with someone pretty instantly? Or, is it a slow burn?

Was there anything I did wrong that turned you off?

If you had advice for any guy looking to meet a girl, what would it be?

What makes someone attractive to you? Do you have any types?

Do you feel that you could never date someone shorter than you?

Am I an unattractive person to you?

These are some of the more common questions John Brown puts to the girls, and true to form the girls answer with the standard feminine boilerplate responses that absolve themselves of their part in his rejection, while trying not to hurt the feelings of a guy they knew would never see them naked. With the exception of maybe Vanessa, it’s pretty clear that John’s punching well above his blue-pill weight with these girls even though I’d only rate Victoria as the only HB8 in the bunch.

The questioning is what I’ve come to expect from most chumps mired in their blue pill bubble of applying logic to their sexlessness, but it’s not John’s overt grilling of these women that’s keeping him trapped in the Matrix – it’s his buildups and followups to those questions. John isn’t just interviewing them to ‘get to the bottom of things’ so he can solve his sex problem, he’s leading these women with ‘if then’ logic in an effort to convince them that, by their own words, they should be attracted to him.

John is make the most fundamental error every plugged in chump makes — he’s appealing to women’s reason.

Why Women Can’t ‘Just Get It

Appealing to women’s logic and relying on deductive reasoning to sort it out is the calling card of a Beta mind. There is nothing more anti-seductive for women than appealing to her reason. Arousal, attraction, sexual tension, subcommunication of desire, all happen indirectly and below the social surface for women. It’s not that women are incapable of reasoning (hypergamy is one logical bitch) or are crippled by their emotion-based hindbrains, it’s that if you’re asking her how to be more attractive you don’t Get It. It’s in the doing, not the asking.

If you read through the responses these women give John from a red pill perspective, you’ll see a pattern emerge. On an intrinsic, subliminal level,  women understand that their genuine desire, their genuine arousal and attraction, has to be an organic process. When a guy like John makes attempts to convince a woman that by her own reasoning (and led by his) she should be with him intimately, it offends and then cancels that process for her.

For women, one of the qualities of the Alpha her Hypergamy demands is a guy who Just Gets It. An Alpha would intrinsically know what women’s arousal and attraction cues are without being told and without even the inclination to ask about them. John’s issue of overtly confirming for himself ‘what women want’ is really an abdication of a Beta who doesn’t get it. And true to form, John’s, and Betas like him, next logical resort is to rationally convince a woman (preferably using her own words) to be attracted to him by attempting to re-impress her of his status.

Betas like this generally end up as the infamous emotional tampon, or the Surrogate Boyfriend to a woman who’s banging the most Alpha Man her looks can attract. However, this appeal-to-reason rationale filters into other aspects of men’s lives. The logical progression for John would be to better identify with the women (really the feminine imperative) he hopes to bang in the future – embody the feminine prerequisites, get the intimate approval. For married or monogamous men this appeal-to-reason may come as a mistaken belief that doing more chores around the house will lead to more (or any) sex for him.

The fallacy of Relational Equity is essentially founded on men’s dependency on appeals to women’s reason. Your doing homework with your children to better their lives (while very ennobling) doesn’t make your wife any hotter for you in bed, nor will it be any bargaining tool should she decide to leave you. Just as John is learning here, women don’t fall in love with who you are, they fall in love with what you are, and no appeal to their reason will convince them otherwise.

Red Pill Women

There’s a lot being made in the manosphere about the emergence of red pill or Game aware women. I’m on record for stating that every woman is a red pill woman, it’s just getting them to drop the feminine-primary, psychological pretense and cop to red pill truths that’s the trick. While I do share the generally wariness of self-identifying “Red Pill Women” and their potential for sanitizing or repurposing Game-awareness to a better feminine liking, I think most women are already aware of the truth of Game. There’s a very real danger in Men accepting “red pill women’s” conversion and acceptance of those truths for exactly the appeal-to-reason dynamic I’ve described here.

Red pill women’s acceptance of what the manosphere forces them to acknowledge about themselves is essentially a convincing appeal to their reason, and this will always make their “conversion” suspect. Regardless of their reported red pill self-awareness, red pill women still want a guy to Just Get It, their desire still can’t be negotiated, and as illogical as it may seem to a manosphere Man, hoping to appeal to the same reason that made her “red pill” still wont get you laid.

Red pill or not, women are still women, and basing any relationship you have with them on appealing to their reason, rather than solid Game awareness and truths, is building you house on a foundation of sand.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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donalgraeme
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Spot on Rollo. Attraction is entirely unconscious (or sub-conscious, I always get those mixed up). Reason has nothing to do with it, and as you point out, can even get in the way.

Probably because it acts as a kind of reverse pre-selection indicator. A man who has been successful with women in the past (and therefore more likely than not to be attractive) would know not to appeal to reason. So women unconsciously rate any man appealing to reason as a man who is not attractive, because he couldn’t have been successful with them in the past.

arbias
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arbias
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hello, i have been reading the posts on this site for a while. fantastic stuff. i am requesting for input on a specific topic – “how to behave around beta men”. i am situated in finance and am consistently around beta men. i get sick of it. sometimes i ignore them, sometimes i show them alpha-ness. it works and it does not – i get in trouble sometimes as they feel insecure around me. your expertise would be very helpful on this. good day.

Yep It's Me
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Yep It's Me
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I’ve thought about this whether women even need to take the Red Pill or not – my belief is that it will have only minimal affect on them – because it works on the “logic” centers of the brain – therefore Men will have both a harder time ingesting and a bigger affect from the Red Pill than women. The other thing I’ve thought about is the fact that the Red Pill is more like a daily vitamin than a “take once and be done” vaccine. Environmentally speaking, you daily defense, otherwise it’s easy to slip back into the matrix.… Read more »

Yep It's Me
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@arbias

Don’t know how to help you, but I’ve had more than one annual review where it was stated “you can intimidate people” – where I’ve replied to my supervisor “and the problem is?”.

You can’t really help beta men – it’s a path of self discovery for most. All you can is ignore them and lead by example.

wesa1835
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wesa1835
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Women are perfectly capable of applying and ruthlessly using reason/logic in relationships. But it only enters into the ‘how do I best feather my bed today’ part of the equation. There is better example of practical female reasoning than beta bucks – alpha f**ks.

However, the main topic here was attraction. And when it comes to female attraction, it is ALL about the tingle.

Craiger24
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Craiger24
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As always, brilliantly put and I honestly think nobody breaks “red pill or game awareness” like you Rollo. I do look forward to your posts, and since reading you, my life and relationships have changed for the better. I try to “un plug” as many as I can, some won’t take the “red pill”, but once you do swallow it, I found that it is like having a “key” to everything and everyone around you. The process of this “awareness” or “awakening” is relatively instanaeous, once you reflect on everything in your past, what is currently around you, and what… Read more »

Peregrine John
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Peregrine John
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I’m not as convinced as you that all women are “red pill” – remembering that the phrase means they are awake and see the reality, not in the Matrix and seeing the illusion. People have an astonishing ability to lie to themselves, and that also goes for those who should know better. Considering that the illusion is, and serves, the feminine imperative, women may all know somewhere in their core that it’s all crap, but it’s alarming how many really won’t even look directly at the possibility. But isn’t this sort of thing (3rd wave feminism, leftism, etc.) more or… Read more »

catalinarea
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Yes, a woman needs to take the Red Pill (@ Yep It’s Me) for the sake of their own interests. Now that I am Red Pill I have more ways to manipulate men because I know more about what drives them. Simple as that.

Though when I say manipulate I mean — what qualities should I display to get a man to love me or value me? Or what attributes should I improve or repress? Etc.

jen
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jen
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@Yep: I agree with catalinarea that women need to take the red pill, but not for the same reason. Take your average HB6+. Some of them (especially the girls in the highest brackets) do understand that every guy around them wants to get in their pants. But there’s a huge number of pretty girls who truly think that their horde of guy friends are just that: friends. I’ve seen (and experienced) the brutal realization that *none* of them stick around once you’re off the dating market, and therefore just wanted to get you into bed. Granted, this self-denial is usually… Read more »

O.Outlier
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Fantastic post, Rollo. And I used to wonder why I always got friend zoned, thinking that there’s no “reason” for her not to like me. Instead of appealing to her subconscious desires and arousing her emotions, I always try to talk reasonably and demonstrate my intelligence, which I’m finally learning doesn’t matter, regardless of what women say. Our minds just work differently. It’s almost like I’m the one putting THEM in the friend zone, by talking to them like a boring intellectual would and not demonstrating beyond a doubt my attraction for them. I find this an interesting way of… Read more »

FuriousFerret
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FuriousFerret
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” i am situated in finance and am consistently around beta men. i get sick of it.” Welcome to corporate America son. It sucks. The land of shims and PC terrified betas along with super charged feminists. Best advice is that your that the vast majority of your co-workers are ‘work input machines’. They aren’t real people. Just be cool with yourself and don’t give into their frame sticking with your own personal autonomy while being careful not offend the HR vultures by speaking your personal views on offensive topics. Just keep a greater beta veneer while making strategic alpha… Read more »

deti
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deti
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“Red pill women’s acceptance of what the manosphere forces them to acknowledge about themselves is essentially a convincing appeal to their reason, and this will always make their “conversion” suspect. Regardless of their reported red pill self-awareness, red pill women still want a guy to Just Get It, their desire still can’t be negotiated, and as illogical as it may seem to a manosphere Man, hoping to appeal to the same reason that made her “red pill” still wont get you laid.” Spot on; “women’s acceptance of what the manosphere forces them to acknowledge about themselves”. Women KNOW Game. They… Read more »

I
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I
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There are so many “red pill women” blogs out there. I don’t read any of them and I wouldn’t either because ever since I learned the truth about women, I have lost all faith in them. I can never trust a women on anything . Maybe some women are good at some things, but still I’d rather take a guys advise, and this includes the females in my family. I have always thought that mothers and sisters can play an important role in the red pill upbringing. Maybe you could shed a light on it

FuriousFerret
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FuriousFerret
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” I think acknowledging these things as true literally horrifies women because it makes them look like shallow, superficial, manipulative, ruthlessly self interested harridans.” When women get together in their little hen circles the conversation is way way rauncher than men. When they are young they talk about their lust for bad boys, hot men, studs and when they are old they complain about their beta nice guy husbands. One thing I would like to point out is that at their core I would say every guy is red pill too but they accept a delusion and lie as well.… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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Actually I already have:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/29/female-dating-advice/

Bear in mind that Red Pill Women’s advice is still women’s advice.

Rollo Tomassi
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From that post: For the answer, all you have to do is look at the bios of single women on any online dating service. When asked to describe the characteristics they find desirable in a man, the single most common responses are confidence, decisiveness, independence. Traits that would require a man to be a Man and have the foresight and perseverance not to take things at face value. The guy with the capacity to call a woman’s bluff with a confidence that implies she is to be worthy of him rather than the other way around is the Man to… Read more »

onderhassan
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onderhassan
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Having read the manosphere blogs for some time now and following yours, heartiste’s and Krauser’s especially. It’s dawned on me that the female species is volatile, unpredictable, shameless and selfish in nature. True, the same could be said about us men in our species, but I honestly think we’re not even as half as bad as these broken women. We have so much to prove as males that it’s become seemingly impossible to fulfill the role as a man in today’s modern society. In addition to knowing and understanding their behavior as well as having infield experience from actively gaming.… Read more »

xna232stang
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The curious thing about women jumping on board the red pill train is that it just isn’t needed. Men don’t need women to swallow the red pill to have a good relationship, fling, etc. Unless you count (women) keeping yourself pretty as part of the red pill. Once a man learns how to be attractive to women in general, his interactions with women will improve. The end. A woman will be attracted to game whether or not she knows about the red pill. Her eyes will alight and her body language will open up even if she doesn’t know that… Read more »

Aristippus
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Aristippus
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Catalina,

It’s pretty simple. Act the way you would act when you first start dating a man and then never stop.

Jacob Ian Stalk
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Jacob Ian Stalk
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In the hands of women, this knowledge will Enshrine the Female Imperative. It will become worship of the Mother Goddess; a dance lesson to the siren song of her evil handmaidens. Game is like a gold ring through a pig’s snout – it lures unwary men onto the altar of the sacred feminine, feverishly to mount her handmaidens and cast the pearls of their manhood before her swine. It’s a roadmap to her altar with Google-Maps-direction-finder efficiency. No need to wonder how to get there, or look for street signs. It’s the short cut, spelled out for us on the… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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Red pill women’s acceptance of what the manosphere forces them to acknowledge about themselves is essentially a convincing appeal to their reason, and this will always make their “conversion” suspect. Regardless of their reported red pill self-awareness, red pill women still want a guy to Just Get It, their desire still can’t be negotiated, and as illogical as it may seem to a manosphere Man, hoping to appeal to the same reason that made her “red pill” still wont get you laid. Red pill or not, women are still women, and basing any relationship you have with them on appealing… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@catalinarea …for the sake of their own interests. Now that I am Red Pill I have more ways to manipulate men because I know more about what drives them. Simple as that. That doesn’t follow. Women have already been perfecting the manipulation of male attraction triggers for centuries. It is why make-up, push-up-bras, plastic surgery, corsets, low necklines, bare midriff, hip-huggers, low-rider-jeans, shiny stockings, high-heels, hair care tools & products, skin care products, bikinis, spandex in general, etc… exist. Women learn very early on how to manipulate a man’s attraction, probably so early that the learned behaviors are not even… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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This is what happens when so called “Red Pill Women” are allowed to represent the manosphere:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/oldest-war_742473.html

deti
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deti
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Rollo:

So a tradcon at a neocon newsweekly savages Dr. Helen’s latest book. We all expected that.

But, we all know what they would have done to Roissy or Roosh.

theshadowedknight
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Rollo, what is the problem with Smith and Men on Strike? I really do not see it doing anything meaningful, whether good or bad. The book gets dismissed as libretardian ranting, and is then ignored after the obligatory debunking by the media. Can you explain further?

Honest question here, as I want to know if I am missing something.

The Shadowed Knight

Jeremy
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This is what happens when so called “Red Pill Women” are allowed to represent the manosphere:

I haven’t read Helen’s book. Many things about that review are believable to me:
1) It is believable to me that Andrew Fergusen is a narrow minded natural alpha and at a stage in life where he’s had only healthy experiences with women. This would make him nearly incapable of opening his eyes to the plight of the average man.
2) It is entirely believable to me that Helen’s book is full of poorly sourced claims and significant misrepresentations of manosphere truths.

Rio
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Rio
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Onderhassen, “Having read the manosphere blogs for some time now and following yours, heartiste’s and Krauser’s especially. It’s dawned on me that the female species is volatile, unpredictable, shameless and selfish in nature.” –Reading Krauser and Heartiste, and especially reading their followers’ comments, will undoubtedly lead you to the conclusion that women are volatile, unpredictable, and shameless. If we were to make a conclusion about the male species after reading Krauser and Heartiste, it would be that men are a shameless, polygamous, drunken, whore-mongering species. But that’s a pretty broad conclusion based on a couple of sophomoric blogs, wouldn’t you… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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Aww,..stop it you’re making me all misty.

Case
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Case
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Rollo, Couple things about this post. Re: your assertion that all women are “red pill”. Well, I’d say “yes” and “no”. Yes in that as another commenter noted, attraction is not chosen. Men don’t chose what men think is hot. Gay people do not choose to be attracted to the same gender. Straight people do not choose to be attracted to the opposite gender. Women do not choose to be attracted to men of higher relative status, or to power, etc … and we can safely intuit that while women probably do have a level of confusion on the point… Read more »

Ondrej
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Ondrej
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg5sxqcvsmE
This is extremely important. I read only daygame.com and rationalmale.com, because other blogs caused me to develop that anger towards women.

Carlos Rivera
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Carlos Rivera
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@ Jacob Ian Stalk

It is like you are a phantom. They can see you, but they can’t *see* you. We are too divided. The species appears to have been a failed project. Another district to Hell has been added. Pity. Like hamsters playing a Game, running on its wheel. Yet this wheel moves and it pushes a rock up a mountain. Only to have it roll down again.

In the next cycle, however, there will be no existence…They will have to create themselves ex nihilo without cosmological support.

biff
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biff
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Two things, first this is an A+ post. Rollo, you have some of the most perceptive pieces in the manosphere that I’ve yet come across (in addition to a few misses), but the relative infrequency of your posts may prevent you from getting the recognition you deserve. Wish I could have read this years ago when I was with this runway model chick. During one of our final convos, she’s like crying and tells me she’s bi-polar. I just kind of smirked and was like you didn’t have to say it. Initially, I chalked up all our communication issues to… Read more »

dana
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dana
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i am a veteran member of the man-o-sphere and so-called red pill women and, for the record, the advice i dispense to other women is NOT “advice from women”, it is advice directly from the mouths of the men of the man-o-sphere without being being filtered through “the interests of women” except in that i find the “interest of women” to be attaining a satisfying relationship with a man who is dominant and attractive enough to have options by becoming the kind of woman MEN claim MEN want, not the kind of woman women claim men want or think men… Read more »

Peregrine John
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Peregrine John
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Just a note on terminology: Male and female are, by definition, the same species. The literary reference so often misrepresented is “The female of the species…” There is no female species. Leave that excessively divisive crap to the ignoranuses.

Case
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Case
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dana, re: “…becoming the kind of woman MEN claim MEN want, not the kind of woman women claim men want or think men want because they project their own attraction triggers onto men”. I like that. Simple, crisp, locked-and-shut. I have a friend, she is really, really struggling with this. I typically avoid direct dialog with her which I figure would be fruitless and instead point her to certain things and ask her to wipe the slate clean and just observe for herself what is going on so she learns on her own, but the process is hard. I can… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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Rollo, you have some of the most perceptive pieces in the manosphere that I’ve yet come across (in addition to a few misses), but the relative infrequency of your posts may prevent you from getting the recognition you deserve

Oh, I dunno about that,…

http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2013/08/top-game-blogs-q213.html

Actually my commitment to the upcoming book and my job promotion/relocation this year is the reason for the less frequent posts.

That’ll change around the middle of this month though.

/crypticness

Marky Mark
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Marky Mark
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Works the same for guys too… like an unnattractive woman saying that she is honest and will be a good mother… that’s nice but it doesn’t turn me on sugartits.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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Uhm, what? Why is it necessary to post frequently? The best blogs on the internet post 1-2 times a month. The posts from those blogs are well-crafted, sourced and always worth reading. There’s a very smooth scale between quality content and infrequent posts, and 12 updates daily and lots of repetitive outsourcing of thought. The faster you try to update, the closer you become to an AP wire. Be smart. Spend time thinking about what you’re saying. This is why Maddox is still the best page in the universe because he almost never updates. If that man tried to update… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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@Jeremy, this is exactly what I do now. I’ve never posted for the sake of posting, I post when I have some new insight to share.

Dalrock’s post count has decreased over the past 6 months, yet his page views have increased.

Tam the Bam
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Tam the Bam
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“That’ll change around the middle of this month though.

/crypticness”

OMG I knew it you’re getting the sack and/or being rusticated …

oh wait a normal person would keep that pretty quiet.
Which leaves a state-change on the literary scene as the front-runner, my excessively beta logic intimates.

Paypal OK, boss?

Craiger24
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Regarding your posting more frequently, it’s just that people, such as myself, enjoy your insight…The best way to explain everyone’s “yearning for more” meme is that your postings are much like a good book or movie, it will always leave you wanting more…just like a “red pill” man will do with a woman he is dating. Scarcity makes you higher in demand, as you well know. Again, I appreciate your insight, your style of writing, and I look forward to new posts as they become available. Your work, along with others, have taught me invaluable insight and thus inspired me… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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@Tam, lets just say I’ve always had the sack, just not the experience to know how arduous a process of compiling, editing, re-editing, publishing, etc. a book would be.

Plans are to have it done by my 2 year mark this month.

Yep It's Me
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Yep It's Me
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I’ve admitted here and elsewhere, that I fucked up my marriage by becoming/devolving into the a sickly lump of beta-non-manliness. Potentially I was there before I got married (in some respects), but it was a series of tiny sidesteps that took me to the dissolution of my marriage. So, I say this with complete humility and the voice of experience… Do not give in, do not say yes, do not stray from your “mission” in life. What does this have to do with attraction? Well, all those tiny side steps (over my 17 year marriage) were all in the name… Read more »

Yep It's Me
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Yep It's Me
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PS (to my earlier comment)…

I don’t buy the “Red Pill Women” thing. Awareness is only a step. Knowledge, then planning, then action – all those are required. I just don’t believe that most women are wired for the hard work required. Just my opinion.

Antex
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Antex
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As usual some men assume they are straight and rational complete being and women predictable animals. Also the definition of beta can’t be that univocal, though I might intuitively define a beta someone who is excessevely needy with women and just points to that thing. Alpha could be a cinical men who just know how to obtain that “thing” or one who doesn’t just have o cold unique objective + “how to get there flowchart” but has this “non-chalance” and communicates this to women, where the so called nerd might communicate frustration and awkwardeness. But things are not always so… Read more »

Rol
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Rol
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Women have no use for the red pill, they already know exactly what behaviors men like and will tailor it to suit any given situation. If a chick just wants some dick (alpha), she’s going to be more sexually flirtatious, shit-test earlier, maybe throw in a little jealousy game to peak your interest (I guess that falls under shit-test as well). If she wants more long-term commitment (beta) she’ll be friendly and more accommodating, playing the sweet princess role. May hold out on sex longer to appear chaste. Of course, these approaches aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, there’s always overlap, but… Read more »

walawala
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walawala
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This is a great post….more evidence that the “Just be yourself” or JBY is the kind of approach to reason and logic that keeps many guys from achieving the self-awareness necessary to adopt both inner and outer game.

TempestTcup
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The Red Pill woman sites where I hang mainly consist of women married or LTR to men that have taken the red pill.

We discuss girly stuff like haircare & we share recipes at GirlsBeingGirls.

RedPillWoman reddit, is different and people do ask advice. Our overwhelming advice is to look good, don’t be a bitch, be very enthusiastic (in bed, lol), and let him run the show.

catalinarea
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@ Aristippus

clever advice, thanks!

@ Jeremy

No, but see…..Before the red pill I hated men and thought they were subhuman and evil and that the way I act doesn’t matter etc……

After red pill I realized that certain feminine qualities DO matter and that men are human, too. And thus I can now treat them better and maybe have a better chance of keeping them.

Hint: Makeup doesn’t help that much.

catalinarea
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Also, I am speaking as a 23yr old. You guys are forgetting that the media and peers are making it seem as if chasteness is NOT that important (and thank god I once had a middle eastern bf that showed me the facts, otherwise I wouldn’t till be a virgin) and that you can be sassy, etc and that men are ebil.

Dale
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Dale
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@catalinearea is correct; men who take the red pill don’t change what they want in a woman, they just learn how women work, so they can do what they need to do. The same for women taking the red pill, they con’t change what they want, only learn better how to get it (not so much how to be more attractive, but having more understanding of what works.) @O. Outlier: I learned that many of the women I thought had friend zoned me, though I had friend zoned them. (Women get put in the friend zone for the same reason… Read more »

Vektor
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The red pill is the truth, nothing more. What you do with that awareness is up to you. A red pill woman. To me, that is exactly about reason. An awareness of instinct and an awareness of reality. There are many ‘beta’ husbands who work hard for their families. They would sacrifice everything for their families. Red pill women recognize this. Red pill women are not led by instinct. They have an understanding of honor and duty. They understand that when you have a child, you can not just make decisions just for yourself anymore. Women in the past didn’t… Read more »

glenbert
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glenbert
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Bullshit. If women were “naturally red pill,” none of them would be fat.

Rol
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Rol
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Catalinaarea, “No, but see…..Before the red pill I hated men and thought they were subhuman and evil and that the way I act doesn’t matter etc……” This sounds a little less than genuine. Women usually develop a chip on their shoulder when they experience a “pump-n-dump” and/or a rejection by guys they’re attracted to (usually create a lot of plausible deniability to mitigate this), they don’t simply come out of the gates hating men. Granted, if you were thoroughly brainwashed by a parent, I imagine that could have a significant effect, but that’s more of an extreme situation. Most staunch… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Anonymous Reader
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Tangental but related, Giggles rolled out her new and improved Slutting Up Smart. Soon to come – new commenting system…

catalinarea
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@ Rol Well, I guess another point that will clear things up is that I had a poor father figure–i.e. was essentially rejected by my father because he never ever spent time or attention on me. So I assumed they were the scum of the earth that only care about sex and exploit at any given chance and have no emotions etc. Also, it is not so much about overvaluing oneself in my case (I know my looks are a mere 6 or something) — but about coming to learn that actually looks aren’t EVERYTHING and that in order to… Read more »

Artisanal Toad
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Can you shoot me an email?

HanSolo
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For anyone interested in plummeting marriage rates, check out the post I just made in my username that builds off of Dalrock’s post about rising never-married rates. I use it to calculate the 5-year marriage rates by age cohort and year and show that it has plummeted. Then I project what the never-married levels will be by 2017 under reasonable assumptions about what will happen to marriage rates in the next few years. In the early 2000′s, 30-34 y/o never-married white women (NMWW) had a ~34% chance of marrying within the next 5 years. This level was cut in half… Read more »

Rol
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Catalinarea, “Well, I guess another point that will clear things up is that I had a poor father figure–i.e. was essentially rejected by my father because he never ever spent time or attention on me. So I assumed they were the scum of the earth that only care about sex and exploit at any given chance and have no emotions etc.” The men you sort of caricatured here are considered “bad-boys” (alpha). They are by far, not the norm. These are the guys that tend to get women in their prime years, which is the cause of much confusion among… Read more »

catalinarea
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@ Rol Your comment makes a lot of sense, maybe my perception of guys was distorted because the guys often talked about in public are alphas, but I don’t have time to analyze this right now. In terms of looks, I guess what I was alluding to is that I learned that there IS hope for me because (1) looks are somewhat controllable (stay young and in shape and groom in a feminine way) and that (2) personality CAN add to your chances. When I was dumped by a guy I loved not for my looks but for my personality… Read more »

furiousferrett
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@catalinarea Life is only really good for the truly elite. Most women aren’t going to have the life of their dreams because they can lie on their back. However, this is true. The average woman definitely has an easier time than an average man. That is a straight up fact. That’s the rub. As long as you are semi attractive when you are young and don’t royally fuck it up, then you’re should be ok because you’re the protected sex. Whereas the average male is simply used and tolerated. The true winner is the top 15 – 20 percent of… Read more »

HanSolo
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@Furious Ferrett I agree that women are of greater “value” than beta males. And in terms of sexual and marriage value I agree with your hierarchy. In terms of overall effect on society I would make one change at the top. I would say it’s the true apex alphas like rock stars, athletes, billionaires, etc. that are really at the top, (with the few apex alpha females like Oprah and their influence on society). In the femcentric society we live in I would say that in many ways that “alpha females” have more impact on society than alpha males because… Read more »

furiousferrett
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@Han

“In terms of overall effect on society I would make one change at the top.”

Society. Who cares?

Bobb Dobbs
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70% of divorces are initiated by women. Why cry about the consequences?

catalinarea
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@furiousferrett I don’t know, I still have trouble agreeing that it’s harder for beta men. My point was that a beta male can always improve no matter how old–can always get muscle can always make more money can always learn game etc. Whereas once a woman hits 27 it’s downhill no matter what she does and she is left to lament on the past and be ignored in the future. Now….about careers….. I do NOT mean something silly like HR management when I say career….all my life I wished to do something with impact and have a real career like… Read more »

catalinarea
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@ Rol Forgot to clear something up. You again assumed I overvalued myself and therefore acted like a bitch etc and then learned my value cannot support my crap personality. That’s not true. If anything, I was UNDERvaluing myself. I always thought I was ugly (below average). So when he thought I was pretty etc it was hard for me to believe him so my insecurities were raging and I was an even bigger bitch. Please stop assuming every girl overvalues herself. Sometimes bitchiness is her testing that you really like her because she doesn’t see herself in as nice… Read more »

furiousferrett
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“Problem is…BECAUSE I AM A GIRL I HAVE TO SETTLE FOR MARRIAGE NOW AN NOT EXPERIENCE FREEDOM LIKE GUYS DO AND NOT OVEREXERT MYSELF AND DAMAGE MY YOUTH. =(”

LOL!!!!!!

catalinarea
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@ furiousferrett

what??? how is that funny?? it’s true!! guys can wait till they’re 35, girl have to do it in mid-20s and then never get to experience true freedom and personal development!

I really don’t get how that is hard to understand/see/empathize with

Maybe I’m just weird, I don’t know–but there are things I want to experience outside of marriage that doesn’t involve guys or dating. And in fact, a bf, let alone a husband, would interfere with that.

furiousferrett
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I totally empathize with your extremely difficult position. It’s simply not fair. You should be able to have your freedom and be able to settle down on your timeline. Due to your extremely well reasoned and logical rebuttal I’m remaking my chart to reflect reality: alpha males > beta males >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog/cat > women Such a cruel world that we live in. If only these was an ideology that would allow us to fix these terrible injustices done to women who have been historically oppressed by the evil sex known as men. Maybe you CatalinaRea could invent such a system… Read more »

deti
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Catalina Rea’s comments are useful for us to see that many women really do want to be just like men and believe they are just like men. Cat wants to be taken seriously. She wants to be “one of the guys” and to “run witht he big boys” in the hustle bustle world of work. She wants her “freedom” and to do things that don’t involve a man. Sorry, Cat. Red pill means you must see the world as it is, not as you want it to be. Make your choice: career or man. You can either lock down the… Read more »

deti
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“what??? how is that funny?? it’s true!! guys can wait till they’re 35, girl have to do it in mid-20s and then never get to experience true freedom and personal development! “I really don’t get how that is hard to understand/see/empathize with” And there you have it, Cat. What man would want to marry you when your attitude is that marriage = slavery and growth retardation? You want to get married when you want to. But what about the man who you will probably marry someday? What about what HE wants from his life and his marriage and his relationships?… Read more »

trackback

[…] A woman’s love can’t be reasoned. […]

Morden
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@Rollo

I’ve just found your blog and love it. I think I might have some interesting topics for you.

Do you have a way to submit links to articles or suggest ideas?

Rollo Tomassi
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About page or rollotomassi@charter.net

catalinarea
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K…..k……I really really really wanna state this because it was my initial reaction out of anger: You guys are responding to me like idiots. I am not saying that the way things are should be changed or are wrong or something or that I’m not accepting reality (@ furiousferrett)…I’m saying that the reality is stacked AGAINST women and that means I have hard decisions to make while I am still young and inconclusive on life. Which SUCKS and feels like it’s not fair. You guys are missing the point that I’m not arguing the reality, I am simply pointing out… Read more »

catalinarea
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Another point is that, technically, if I just put in more effort than guys, I could’ve done the same things — I always took gifted math and sciences in high school etc. and was quite ambitious and loved learning technical stuff etc, Then I started dating,,,,(1st year university) and boom: intelligence out the window. It’s like….the sexual/dating dynamics ruin everything for girls in terms of intellectual development and achievement =( Because we have different subconscious goals predetermined by biology ='( . And please don’t take this to mean that I LITERALLY want to be a guy -.- because I’d really… Read more »

catalinarea
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should have been clearer *it’s frustrating that you guys reply with typical manosphere scripts before actually reading my comments without bias at first–cus then you’re not actually reading them, just reacting

FuriousFerret
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@Cat I’m laughing at you because you are e-stamping your feet because you can’t play ‘Sex and the City’ without consequences and you’re genuinely sad about this. It’s hilarious. ” No, I DO KNOW that I have to make the choice and I am going to choose to marry as young as I can–but this comes with a lot of pain.” Using your youth and beauty to make a guy commit when your stock is the highest. Oh the horror. Noooooooooooooo. Why cruel world why? I want to be a high powered independent business woman that drinks cosmos with my… Read more »

Kellbell
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I agree with Yep it’s Me about Red Pill women and it’s effect on our behavior. Many of us are quite aware of Game, but will ignore this knowledge or justify it to suit our EMOTIONAL needs at the time. Worse yet, we will try to change the game to fit our rules; to which only betas will succumb. The Red Pill serves to weed them out; if only we can then emotionally handle the true Alpha who won’t take this shit test.

Yep It's Me
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@catalinarea I believe you have stated your point very clearly, with emphasis and the required amount of emoticons – congrats! Problem is, if you have really taken the Red Pill – you would realize that the Men reading your comments just don’t care. They don’t care because, well, they’re Men. You are proving your case with every comment, that women, even thought they “know” the truth, just can’t accept it. Their hamsters will continue to spin and spin – crying “oh, how unfair, there has to be another way”. I’m sympathetic to your plight. I have a daughter that is… Read more »

Yep It's Me
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And one more thing… If you are looking for sympathy, I’m hoping you won’t get it here (you will need to go to the hen house for that). And, if you did get it from one or more of the men here – then I’m hoping the real Leaders would give them just tell them to “go to their room” and think about it for a while. I read the RooshV article about the Manosphere and how it is dying. Don’t know that I buy into all his points, because I do believe it’s more of an evolution – but… Read more »

Opus
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The analogy here, for me, is with religion. The Atheist, just doesn’t get it. The Atheist wants a reasoned explanation as to why the religionist is correct. The religionist is never able to give an explanation which can satisfy the Atheist.

Bar (two passing remarks) I have never heard any woman display even the slightest understanding of what motivates women or how they should be handled. Asking them is thus beyond pointless. They either want you or they don’t.

deti
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“No, I DO KNOW that I have to make the choice and I am going to choose to marry as young as I can–but this comes with a lot of pain.” And there you have it again. Marrying young and getting a great guy (hopefully) will involve “a lot of pain”. Oh, how horrible to find a great man who loves you and who will do anything for you, who will commit his life to you and work his fingers to the bone for you so you won’t have to. Furious had it right. You want to play and have… Read more »

AW
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AW
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Rollo Tomassi
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Archon
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First let me say that dreams of contributing something great to society are just dreams. I’ve talked to way too many young people with dreams of being, effectively, the next Steve Jobs. Sorry, lady, that’s one in a billion. Catalina’s argument seems to be “even if men screw up their 20s, if they work hard at it, they can have a career, a loving spouse, and a family. Women have to choose either a family or a career in their early 20s.” What you’re missing, Catalina, is that a great many men get none of these. Guys that screw up… Read more »

catalinarea
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Aya……you guys are still being idiots and imposing preconceived scripts and expectations on what I’m saying…. case in point from furiousferrett (and a few other people that alluded that I like 50 shades of grey and sex and the city): ” I want to be a high powered independent business woman that drinks cosmos with my friends while I talk about the latest penis that entered my mouth. It’s so unfair.” Since when the fuck did I mention that I’m interested in any of this drivel? I don’t read or drink cosmos, I don’t even care about the current female… Read more »

Yep It's Me
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Yep It's Me
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And the class started singing…

The hamster in the wheel goes round and round, round and round, round and round, the hamster in the wheel goes round and round, all through the day.

Monarch Programming
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Monarch Programming
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“Arousal, attraction, sexual tension, subcommunication of desire, all happen indirectly and below the social surface for women. It’s not that women are incapable of reasoning (hypergamy is one logical bitch) or are crippled by their emotion-based hindbrains, it’s that if you’re asking her how to be more attractive you don’t Get It. It’s in the doing, not the asking.”

Except in the bedroom. That’s one area where things must be articulated clearly, questions asked and instructions given. That’s how great lovers are made, or molded.

Tam the Bam
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Poor Cat and Kell.
Can’t buy a thrill.
Next.

suchagirl2
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@ catalinarea~ shhhhhuussshhh darlin’. (just my suggestion) read and learn

suchagirl2
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@ yep thank you, that is all

Kellbell
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@ Tam Not poor kell at all! I was simply trying to illustrate that women’s emotions interfere with our abilities to reason – period. When I tried to use “reason” to understand the attraction between the alpha I am dating and myself, my female emotions almost fucked me out of further seeing this guy; actually did for a few weeks. He is a true alpha, tall, attractive, smart, handsome, great career, confident, goals, emotionally secure, responsible and has garnered my unconditional respect and admiration. He is also 3 years younger than I am. When I attempted to use “reasoning” for… Read more »

Kellbell
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My Alpha guy obviously “just gets it” or I wouldn’t want to fuck his brains out every time I see him.

suchagirl2
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@ Kell…here here to your words. Mouth shut, legs open, attraction not promotion (of self)…A true Alpha (such as you and I are both privileged to grace us with his presence and fuck us good) knows what he wants and “gets it”,as well as takes it every time. How can we NOT want to “fuck his (brilliant) brains out”? Glad I took the time to read this particular blog today!

itsme
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itsme
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catalina left before matt king got to game her?

this place has gone downhill real fast.

Rollo Tomassi
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Lol. Matt still has hope for Feminishtix’,..’soul’

Kellbell
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@ suchagirl No self-promotion at all when we have guys that “fuck us good”; we do it #1 cuz WE WANT TO! When you’re getting it that darn good, only seriously frigid women or psychos wouldn’t want it – all the time! Glad to hear there are more out there, had been giving up hope that any real Alphas existed these days after what so many feminist women have turned men into – then dumped their Beta asses. I find it hilarious that my Mom was a psychologist beginning in the 1960’s, at the beginning of the movement. Very radical… Read more »

Kellbell
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@Cat Error #1, “. . . get a guy to like me . . .”, even after the topic is that attraction has no controllable variables, it just “is” or “isn’t?”. # 2. You seem so negative, insecure and lack confidence. No one wants to be around negativity. Alpha men do not put up with it nor do they deal with the other 2. Men, especially Alphas, want in a woman a reflection of themselves, as I have observed over many years. Those qualities in a woman intimidate lesser men. Work on dumping all the negativity, start to like and… Read more »

suchagirl2
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@ Kell I don’t usually “double dip” on these comments, but I felt compelled to add a bit more. My Captain Alpha was at one time pure beta boy, broken and wounded from all the feminists that swarmed his world, not to mention the eff’d up non~available abusive father. I thank the Lord for his “ex” who continuously put up more hoops of the eternal shit tests that he failed over and over until his mind exploded. Her toss and loss is my gain and blessing! Since he choked down the entire red pill, he is Captain “A” and I’m… Read more »

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