Navigating the SMV continues to be one of my most prolific posts. I can remember originally writing that post and plotting the graph as a one-off response to a comment (by Deti I think) made requesting a graphic representation of how both men and women’s SMV waxes and wanes as they progress through life. At the time I had no idea how influential and accurate the graph would be, but it seems that not every three or so months someone links or emails me an outside study with a graph that is so similar to my initial perception of sexual market valuation and devaluation that it kind of creeps me out a little bit.
This most recent graph comes to us courtesy of the Red Pill subreddit, linked to the Cougar and Cub Dating Study on Whatsyourprice.com.
From the chart above, we see that the perceived value of an attractive woman peaks when she reaches 25 years old, and gradually diminishes as she ages. The perceived value of an attractive man however, starts at a much lower price when he is young, peaking only when he reaches the age of 34. It appears from the value curve above that at least some stereotypes we often hear do hold some truth. For example, that female models earn the most before they turn 30. Or that men become more attractive as they age.
But no matter what some of you may read from the value curves above, it has proved a useful tool for predicting when Cougar-Cub couples get together, and when they are likely to break up. The value curves also provide clues of what types of Cougar-Cub relationships stand the best chance of surviving in the long run.
Granted, my own parameters were slightly broader in scope (female SMV peaked at 22-23, men’s 36-38) but the base premise is astonishingly similar. As you might expect the comments are rife with “well-not-in-my-case”, “people are individuals” personal anecdotes, but the grouping of the graph plot is too similar not to recognize a consistency of form with my original SMV graph:
There are other studies and graphs that reflect this basic model. Some are more forgiving and project the feminine SMV decay a bit less or starting later – rarely is men’s SMV any less rigorous – and each study has differing objectives, but the form of the curves are so alike that it’s impossible not to notice the general similarities. I’ve done several followup posts in order to address the most common (deliberate) misunderstandings, as well as the most pressing questions about my SMV graph, so while we move on to the next section of the SMV timeline this week please be sure you reference the side bar category I have set up that exclusively covers the topic if you have questions. I’m prefacing this week’s continuation of Preventative Medicine with this graph because it will be an integral element to understanding the progression through the Epiphany and Transitionary phases.
The Late Party Years
Although not a subsection itself, the latter third of a woman’s Party Years deserves some mention in that the end of this phase is often a prelude for the rationales women develop leading into the Epiphany Phase. As I mentioned here, some third party SMV studies will place a woman’s peak SMV as late as 25-26 years old. I’d argue that this is far too late in a woman’s life progression.
Statistically, most women express a desire to settle down, be married and start a family at or around the age of 27 to 30, and most marriages do happen between 26 and 30 for western women. The popularized, feminized ideal of a woman enjoying her prime – often excused as fulfilling her nebulous professional potential – is a primary contributor to this marriage postponement, but it’s important to point out to men dating women in this phase that the last two years of the party phase will be the stage at which a woman will begin to feel an urgency for long term commitment.
I summed this phase up in Cashing Out, however, it’s here that women, with the foresight to see it, will make their best attempts to consolidate on marriage with the man who best embodies, or has the potential to embody, the Alpha sexual-genetics with the providership parental investment that an optimized hypergamy seeks to balance in the same man. At no other time will a woman feel more urgency in capitalizing on her still prime attractiveness and sexual agency with a man she believes will fulfill the dual dictates of her sexual strategy.
“Where is this going?”
This is the most common phase in which a man will hear the words “where is this going?” from a woman, or is delivered ultimatums of withdrawal of intimacy (no more sex, or threats of break up) if no proposal is forthcoming in the foreseeable future.
Although women’s preferred method of communication rests in the covert, as she matures towards a condition of a lessened capacity to intra-sexually compete with her younger peers (competition anxiety) most men discover that women in this demographic, by necessity, lean more on overt communication. The coquetry, indirectness and blasé indifference that she used to hold and enjoy male attentions during her SMV peak years is progressively traded for more direct certainties of promised, committed assurances of future security.
Side note: Bear in mind that security for women isn’t always manifested as financial provisioning, but can be emotional investment, parental investment, physical security and most importantly fulfilling a masculine role of stability and dominance in her life.
Of primary importance is the consideration that women seek the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks (AFBB) balance of their hypergamous interests in the same man at this stage. That’s not to say this isn’t always the operative for feminine hypergamy, but it’s during the late party years phase that a woman (on some level of consciousness) begins to realize this time is her best opportunity to use her quick-burn SMV to consolidate on an optimized hypergamy. This isn’t due to premonitions of the Wall per se, but it is the first recognition of her diminishing capacity to sexually compete for male attention with young women experiencing their own SMV peak years.
During this period women will often make their first earnest attempts to find ways – sometimes by coercion – to ‘fix’ an Alpha into satisfying the Beta Bucks side of her hypergamy equation, or, to seriously evaluate an already committed Beta’s potential to ‘man up’ and be more Alpha, more ambitious and assesses (what she believes will be) his future SMV potential.
Lastly, bear in mind that women in this phase experience this urgency in direct proportion to what their looks, sexuality and command of male attention will afford them. It’s simple reasoning to figure that women who maintain their physical attractiveness / sexual agency and are consistently rewarded for it with male attention will prolong that state as long as possible. Thus, some attractive women may perpetuate their party years until such time as that attention abruptly ends.
The Epiphany and Transitory Phase
I’ve written extensively on these phases so please have a read of my prior posts The Epiphany Phase, Time’s Up and Cashing Out for a more in-depth understanding of what to expect from women during this stage of life.
Between the ages of 28 to about 30 (sometimes later for attractive women perpetuating their party years) women often enter into a more cognitive awareness of their personal conditions with regard to their declining SMV. This phase I call The Epiphany Phase; it is the point at which the subconscious awareness a woman has of her sexual market value in relation to her eventual date with the Wall can no longer be subconsciously repressed and ignored.
It is of primary importance to men to fully understand the significance this phase has for women. The epiphany isn’t about women hitting their SMV Wall during this phase (though it’s possible) it’s about a woman conscientiously coming to terms with a markedly lessened capacity to sexually compete with her SMV-peak peers for the same male attention she enjoyed during her party years.
The abstract exaggeration is to think a woman necessarily hits the Wall at 30, her physical attractiveness shrivels and she magically transforms into a spinster cat lady overnight. Women absolutely (with effort) can and often do retain their looks and sexual agency past this phase; some into their late 30’s and 40’s. However, what defines this phase is the conscious realization that their looks are no longer what they were in their prime. Combined with this is the awareness that they can no longer sexually compete at the same level as young women in their SMV peak for the attentions of men they now hope to consolidate their hypergamy on in long term commitment and provisioning security.
The Epiphany phase isn’t about women hitting the Wall so much as it is about an urgency to consolidate upon a man’s commitment of long term security with the competition anxiety that comes from realizing it’s now she who must to put forth the effort to secure it rather than having it offered to her as it was by the men in her SMV-peak years.
From The Epiphany Phase:
This is a precarious time for women where she makes attempts to reassess the last decade of her life. Women’s psychological rationalization engine (a.k.a. the Hamster) begins a furious effort to account for, and explain her reasonings for not having successfully secured a long term monogamous commitment from as Alpha a man as her attractiveness could attain for her. Even women married prior to this phase will go through some variation of self-doubt, or self-pity in dealing with the hypergamic uncertainty of her choice (“Is he really the best I could do?”).
A woman’s late party years are often the stage during which she entertains the hope that she can ‘civilize’ the Alpha Bad Boys who satisfy the visceral side of her hypergamy into assuming the providership role the other side of her hypergamy demands and is increasingly becoming more urgent for her – most Alpha Widows are made during this period. However, it’s during the Epiphany phase women (conveniently) make the rationalizations necessary for justifying this ‘fixing’ effort.
During the Epiphany Phase a woman’s inner and outer dialog is self-excusing, virtuously self-educational and self-congratulatory.
“I used to be so different in college, but I’ve grown personally” or “I’ve learned my lesson about pursuing the ‘wrong kind’ of men, I’m done with Bad Boys now” and “What happened to all the Nice Men?” are the standard clichés women will tell themselves and vocally (overtly) broadcast, directly or indirectly, to all the men with a providership potential in the hopes of signaling to them that she will now entertain their feminine-preconditioned offers of love, loyalty and dependability she had no interest in during her party years.
It’s during this stage that women will make radical shifts in their prioritization of what prerequisite traits qualify as ‘attractive’ in a man and attempt to turn over a new leaf by changing up their behaviors to align with this new persona they create for themselves. Since the physicality, sexual prowess and Alpha dominance that made up her former arousal cues in a Man aren’t as forthcoming from men as when she was in her sexual prime, she reprioritizes them with (presumed) preferences for more intrinsic male attributes that stress dependability, provisioning capacity, humor, intellect, and esoteric definitions of compatibility and intimacy.
For the spiritually inclined woman (which is to say most women) this may manifest in a convenient return to religious convictions she’d disregarded since her adolescence. For other’s it may be some kind of forced celibacy; a refusal to have sex under the hypergamic auspices of her ‘party years’ in the hopes that a well provisioning male (the ones not realizing their own potential SMV as yet) will appreciate her for her prudence – so unlike herself and all of the other girls who rejected him over the last decade.
The self-affirming psychological schema is one where she’s “finally doing the right thing”, when in fact she’s simply making the necessity of her long term provisioning and security a virtue she hopes men will appreciate. And if they don’t, then there’s always shaming them to think they’re ‘less-than-men’ for not living up to her eating her cake once she’s had it
While looks and masculine physical triggers in men are still an important attraction factor, her desire for a personal association with a man’s status and affluence begin to sublimate her physical priorities for attraction as she increasingly realizes the necessity of these attributes for her (and any offspring’s) long term provisioning. It should be noted that the appeal of a man’s potential for provisioning is proportional to her actual (or perceived) need for that provisioning.
As a woman moves into the Transitory phase (29-31) this re-prioritization also coincides with the adjusted self-perception of her own SMV. As a woman becomes more cognizant of her lessened ability to sexually compete for men who (she believes) would meet her best hypergamic balance, she’s forced to reassess her self-image. There are many feminine social conventions already pre-established to help her deny or buffer this reassessment. However, her hindbrain still acknowledges the competition anxiety that (unless, by effort or genetics, she’s a notable physical exception) she simply cannot command the kind of male attention women in their SMV-peak years do.
Note that the reality of this assessment, or realistic expectations of it, aren’t the source of this anxiety, but rather it’s what she believes them to be. An exceptionally attractive 30 year old woman may still be able to sexually select men above what most women her age can expect, but it’s what she believes about herself, her internalized expectations for her age and party years experience has taught her. And as you may guess this self-assessment is also subject to the influences of social media and social conventions that pander to this same Transition period anxiety.
I believe it was Roosh who stated that the only women who complain about men needing to Man Up or how men have somehow shirked the masculine responsibilities the
Feminine Imperative society expects of them are always 30 years of age or older. Younger women simply have no motive to complain about what they believe they are entitled to in a man beyond his being ‘hawt’.
What I term as the Transition phase is the culmination of the Epiphany phase’s influence on a woman who’s thus far been unable to consolidate on monogamy with a male who fulfills the role of provider (Beta provider most often) that her hypergamy now holds in much higher priority order. When women in this phase complain of men’s “adequacy issues” what they’re really bemoaning is their chronic inability to find (or merit) a man who can balance the dual influences of her hypergamy.
The urgency for this consolidation is further compounded by the misconceptions most women hold about the Myth of the Biological clock, but in biological terms she’s well past the years of her prime fertility window and conceiving and bearing children becomes progressively more difficult for women with each passing year.
In the Transition phase the competition anxiety that prompted the Epiphany phase is exchanged for an anxiety that results from confronting the possibility a woman may never consolidate on a long term security. However, as always, feminine social conventions are already in place to absolve her of any real personal accountability for this incapacity.
Thus, begins the ‘Men are threatened by powerful women’, ‘Men have fragile egos’, ‘Men are shallow and only want young chippys they can manipulate instead of vibrant, women who are their intellectual equals’ and various other canards intended to simultaneously shame men into compliance with their hypergamous imperative and relieve women of any personal accountability for the anxiety the Transition phase forces them to experience.
In closing todays post, I think it’s important to consider other outcomes of personal decisions women often do make during these periods. As I mentioned in Part I, it’s not uncommon for women to already have consolidated on monogamy (LTR or marriage) well before either of these phase take place. While the experiences may differ, the underlying influences that prompt these phases remain more or less the same. I’ll elaborate more on this in Part III as it primarily relates to the later phases of women’s maturation process.
Its amazing, when you consider it, to think of the various social constructs/conventions built up to support this female model of development. At each and every stage there are a slew of different organizations and support sources which encourage women along every step of the path. Would be a good thing to map them out, actually. You know, to peg different sources to different time periods in the “lifepath.” Starting from Teen magazines and the Disney channel all the way to various middle-age celebrity and gossip mags.
@Donalgraeme, documenting the feminine operative social conventions on a by age basis would be a valuable part of preventative medicine.
I’ve made past efforts to do so, but not really on a ‘by phase’ schedule:
That said,..you’re killing me man.
This series is by far the most involved project I’ve put myself into on this blog. I read, and reread and add more of what I consider needed and still I have more I’d want to cover, but I’m already running the tl;dr attention span risk.
Still it’s a good idea.
There is no need to do it by yourself. Create a post where you ask your readers to contribute. Simply ask them to provide the FOSC’s (Feminine Operative Social Conventions) they can think of, along with the age/phase that they believe they are targeted at. You could probably even throw in SES and race/ethnicity in there as well.
Use the power of your readership to your advantage.
@donalgraeme, very good idea. Map them out, and follow the money.
Great point dude. just thinking about that. I sit and watch tv and watch these “models” all through a femmes maturation..
Pretty little liars to Vampire Diaries to 90210 to Sex n City to The View..
Sick of it dude.. Now women are on Sportscenter as Lead anchor? Even on football sunday.
Re: “the only women who complain about men needing to Man Up or how men have somehow shirked the masculine responsibilities … society expects of them are always 30 years of age or older.” In very much the same way, alpha males never complain about their bounty. And it’s bluntly obvious why the non-complainers wouldn’t complain, blunt-force trauma obvious to anyone with the slightest degree of rationality and empathy. But women, and women only, think that “Hey! You guys who are complaining about how women treat you badly all the time. Maybe it’s not them, maybe it’s you. Maybe you’re… Read more »
This transitioned so well from part 1. The links you provide throughout the article to other things you’ve written are great. I kept seeing the words ‘competition anxiety’, I am curious, is there a male version? Maybe not as deep-rooted as hypergamy but something similar for men? Perhaps, for men, it is something like a realization that if you don’t take care of your health (workout) or your mind (education) or your future (jobs/career) you cannot compete in the SMP. Or direct me to a link where I might find what I am pondering. Anyways, thanks for a wonderful read.… Read more »
Damn I love em fresh and young.. Rookies to the game but pros in sexual energy..
Interesting to note your observations. Being at the ascension into my prime 27 and coupled with extensive weight (jacked as f***) and sucess in my career. Realistic prob setting at an 8. The attractiveness of women through ioi and opening me is incredible. Social matching theory in action. To those from the blue pill reading this post…while it’s not pretty this s*** is true. To rollo…if women can’t love a man like he desires (true…my thoughts are related to his experience with his first female. His mother) How does he find a place of warmth and affection with a women… Read more »
To what Donalgraeme said, the sources are virtually too numerous to name. And always being regenerated, like shark teeth. Every day time talk show that’s been created. Sit coms like this new one that came on after Modern Family tonight. Forgot the name, but it’s about several people interacting in a bar. And I saw that it’s produced by Ryan Seacrest.There’s the need to satisfy the female fantasy of being able to beat up a guy in every movie with an action scene. The Ban the word Bossy campaign, the “campaign” to change what curvy means. On and on…It almost… Read more »
[…] Preventative Medicine – Part II (The Rational Male) […]
On right now is repeat of Bethanny talk show and she has on two women who wrote a book about rules on dating some time ago. Same two women now have a book about new rules and have co-opted some of the same things said in this blog and others.
Like if he text, make sure you text back with less words than he did. And have some where to go in the middle of date or meeting them, to create a scarcity feeling.
From personal experience, The older I get, The younger I’m fucking; I’m 42 and the average age of the last say, 5-6 women, has been just under 25, the two most recent being 22, they gravitate towards older alpha men, end of story
Exact same thing I’m experiencing, Tim. You and I are the same age, and the last girl had just turned 21. The current target is 25.
That whatsyourprice.com study is money, as it is based directly on what people are actually willing to pay. Money talks, and bullshit walks. This is revealed preferences in its most pure form – impossible to argue against.
Giggles, eat your heart out. roflmao
Another home run, Rollo. Keep on writing!
Tweak… “How does he find a place of warmth and affection with a women in a husband and wife context or is the “knowing” that game never stops just a load that a man carries til death.” The latter. And that realization is like getting hit with a two by four. You can’t ever relax and you can’t ever let your guard down. On the other hand, the shift in the power dynamic of a M/F LTR once red pill truths are internalized and acted upon is amazingly intoxicating. As someone in my late 40s, I literally failed every single… Read more »
As one of those weirdo women who settled down at 22 and has never regretted it, the idea that a woman should spend her most fertile, attractive years drinking and riding strange penises confounds me. Her eventual husband deserves better, but if men don’t have sense enough to know it and demand better, then what? Couple of additional thoughts: Women who manage to look sufficiently preserved into their 30’s/40’s do so precisely because they know they need to work extra hard at. Unfortunately it’s usually divorcees or women planning to divorce who puts forth the effort, but I actively encourage… Read more »
It’s interesting that the point where men are peaking in value (mid to late thirties, early forties) is often labeled by women as the ‘mid life crisis’ which I tend to see as a preemptive attack, hoping to demoralize men in this period and lower their self perception of value so as to either keep them (in the case of the married woman) or lock them up in a relationship (if you’re a lower SMV woman than he might get).
@Sisyphean, I address the “mid life crisis” here: http://therationalmale.com/2012/11/19/mid-life-crisis/ The truth about men’s mid-life crises isn’t about recapturing youth, it’s about finally understanding the trappings they’ve been sold into through their 20′s and 30′s and coming to terms with that often horrible truth. Some men do in fact buy the sports car, get the new hottie wife or act in some fashion that appears reckless and irresponsible. This isn’t due to infantilism, but rather new understanding of their own position as men. They’ve “lived responsibly” for so long and for so little appreciation that when that true realization is made… Read more »
The latter party years and transition stage are my favourite female life phases to analyze. Based on observations in the UK, the latter party years for most women stand a little earlier at 24 to 25, and the transition period commences at 26. I’ve said for many years that the Saturday night bar scene in UK cities are void of women in their mid to late 20s. Depending on the venue, the pronounced female ages are 17 to 22 or post early 30s. This is no mean coincidence. And I believe the night scene can almost single-handedly place spotlight… Read more »
@Elspeth, which men ever GET to demand anything, much less demand better?
@Josey Wales, “that realization is like getting hit with a two by four” I guess I’m still mourning my loss, since, knowing now, I can never be in love again. But, as you said, my falling out of love was key in getting my wife to start to realize she had to be better. I’ve been thinking a little (cough, cough) about this in the year since, and I’ve decided that the reason for falling out of love is so that Dread can come into play. Otherwise that left hand of darkness remains firmly tied behind your back, which is… Read more »
Perhaps to your point, in my experience, women peak 21-23.
Heartiste referenced a scientific study showing men were most attracted not to maximally fertile women, but “YOUNGER THAN MAXIMALLY FERTILE”, specifically to girls between 15-20.
Rollo – first off thanks for the MAP. As always, your posts are very enlightening.
Do you think there is a similar MAP for men? Or are most men so conditioned by the feminine imperative that they follow what women want? Should men seeking to maximize their SMV follow a certain life path?
It seems like, if men aren’t interested in children, they can simply develop themselves and their game indefinitely and cash in big when in their thirties. However if men do want children or family, what path should the follow?
BC beat me to it.
Rollo: Giggles could not be reached for comment.
It’s interesting that the point where men are peaking in value (mid to late thirties, early forties) is often labeled by women as the ‘mid life crisis’ which I tend to see as a preemptive attack, hoping to demoralize men in this period and lower their self perception of value so as to either keep them (in the case of the married woman) or lock them up in a relationship (if you’re a lower SMV woman than he might get). Yes, but it is also often a real ‘mid life crisis’ from the average man’s* POV as well, as he… Read more »
re: fertility rates after first children. Yes, I recall reading studies about exercised wombs “knowing” what to do, but I don’t find any of them upon simple googling. It makes sense that a 40 yr old woman who has already borne children would be more fertile, possible a lot more fertile, than an otherwise similar 40 yr old woman who has never had children. But the devilish details are probably concerning “otherwise similar”.
What I always find interesting is how the hamster kicks in during Epiphany and Transition in order to explain the Party Years. “I was looking for love in all the wrong places.” “I always wanted marriage. I always wanted to find a great guy to settle down and have kids with. It just never happened for me.” “I made a lot of mistakes.” (Read: I made a lot of decisions that seemed like a good idea in the moment but when aggregated make me look kind of bad to you now.) “I didn’t intend to get to 30 without being… Read more »
You cashed out and married at 22 because you could.
You are one of the few who hit the jackpot. You were able to do what all the other girls out there are trying (and failing) to do. You were able to lock down a very attractive man with options. And you were able to do it using pretty much the same tactics that girls use now, except toned down and in a less raunchy environment. The difference is the caliber of man you selected.
Great post Rollo. I wish I had this info when I was younger. Now divorced, but I’m lucky I paid the cash and prizes off during the recession. I’ll never marry again. I think the chart on women is slightly off. 48 yo women seem to have a massive decline in their looks (48 to 51 it sets in). I’ve said before no one wants to fuck Grandma, not even Grandpa. I say thanks again Rollo for making me aware.
In the interests of full disclosure, while I have been deliberately taking my time with this series to better flesh it out (for the 2nd book), anyone following me on Twitter knows I’m dealing with some end of life issues with my favorite greyhound who’s prematurely gotten osteosarcoma.
So if my posts seem a bit more spread out recently, it’s not a permanent thing. Thanks for understanding.
@Rollo “For the first time in his relationship history, he faces the Cardinal Rule of Relationships from his own perspective – women need him more than he needs women.” This to me is the money quote from “mid-life crisis”. In my late 40s it’s amazing to me the blatant come ons I now get regularly from women young enough to be my daughters. Admittedly, I’m much younger looking than almost 50 and in very good physical shape, but it still scrambles my brain. Women may ridicule the mid-life crisis as a “pre-emptive attack” as BC posts, but that ridicule is… Read more »
Watching helplessly as your dutiful beta provider, who has bent over backwards to keep you ensconced in comfort and security for years suddenly have his own epiphany that his SMV has shot way ahead of yours has to be very scary and humbling for any woman. It’s scary because women’s long term security and provisioning depends on a man never fully coming into an awareness of his true SMV. Scarier is the thought that a man might come to that awareness after his potential has been compromised and limited by the decisions he was led to believe were his responsibilities… Read more »
@deti. This is one of the problems of the manosphere women. They are happily married because they married an alpha. They used the same trick that other women use to land an alpha (that is, giving the goods before commitment). (This is not an insult. They have confessed to have done that.) They were lucky, that’s all. Now, they recommend other women to be chaste, shun alphas and marry a beta. That is, the exactly opposite of what they did. Do what I say not what I do. Of course, no woman is enthusiastic about marrying a beta, especially when… Read more »
Imnobody: I don’t know if I would say it is a “problem about manosphere women”. It just is what it is. There always were and always are a few women who luck out, hit the jackpot, and get early commitment from a high value man with options. It’s just that most women aren’t going to be able to do that. So a typical woman of today shouldn’t look at Elspeth and say “that’s what I’m going to do” and Elspeth counsels them against that. And yet, most do that, I’m told, in the hopes of doing exactly what Elspeth did.… Read more »
Returning to thoughts I had after “Saving the Best” I find it comforting to know that the Epiphany phase isn’t something a woman chooses, rather, is something that happens to her without her consent, and she is forced to adapt to it. This, of course, leads to two immediate thoughts that I believe Rollo has already touched on. First, a woman seems to encounter her Red Pill truth as her SMV is being taken away, and a man contemplates his as his SMV comes to its peak. This leads to Rollo’s assertion that the mid life crisis is a natural… Read more »
@Elspeth, which men ever GET to demand anything, much less demand better? It would require men as a collective refusing to marry used up women. Now, they recommend other women to be chaste, shun alphas and marry a beta. That is, the exactly opposite of what they did. Do what I say not what I do. You live and learn. Would a former alcoholic be who managed to never get caught or convicted for his DUI be wrong if he advises others not to drink and drive? It’s scary because women’s long term security and provisioning depends on a man… Read more »
Imnobody: Before I forget it, the reason some women can say things like this: “As one of those weirdo women who settled down at 22 and has never regretted it, the idea that a woman should spend her most fertile, attractive years drinking and riding strange penises confounds me.” Is because they never had to live through what most women choose now. She doesn’t regret marrying her husband because he’s a highly attractive man with options, and he’s a man she is extremely sexually attracted to. She’s not a “weirdo” woman – she lucked out and got what all the… Read more »
Re: “an almost irresistible temptation.” I don’t believe women can fully appreciate it.
@Elspeth, so as usual the only thing men get to demand is … nothing.
LucasBly mentioned Rollo’s December 2013 article Saving the Best. That was the one that really got my goat, and filleted it, and offered it up as a whole burnt offering to the profundity of the Feminine Imperative. I ain’t got no more goat. But if I got another goat, I’d send him to the same slaughtering realization that men as a collective have been sold a bill of goods and that women as a collective have always known their pawn value to the penny.
@deti This is not something personal about Elspeth (I wish her well) or about another manosphere women. I am only trying to analyze the situation. So a typical woman of today shouldn’t look at Elspeth and say “that’s what I’m going to do” and Elspeth counsels them against that. And the typical woman of today won’t pay any attention because, in her opinion, Elspeth’s life is the best example against Elspeth’s message. She did the opposite what she says now and she ended up with a alpha and a family. If Elspeth hasn’t put out, she would probably have ended… Read more »
Elspeth’s message would be best delivered by a cat lady.
I actually agree with this. 100%. It’s why I largely direct my time and energy to helping married women rather than single ones. You will find a grand total of ONE post on any one of my blogs directed towards single women.
I advise my own daughters, but it is easier because they know things about our story that online readers are not privy to.
Great posts as usual-I particularly enjoy these threads about SMV. It’s almost funny now to watch women I know in these phases with my new found understanding. The current post is timely for me since my current LTR is 31 and right on time had her epiphany/transition. She switched to the overt language to push for marriage, stopped being affectionate, etc.. so I called the bluff and ended things. I’m back on the scene and having a blast! Thanks in part to all the great info on sites like yours
Imnobody: Another thing here is that women who frequent the manosphere or blog in and around it usually tend to be the ones who married very attractive men with options. They tamed their alphas. They tend also to be very happy being married, and are happily married to their husbands. And why wouldn’t they be? They hit the jackpot. They married very, very attractive men to whom they are extremely sexually attracted. That doesn’t happen for most women. That’s notable, because the other kind of women who frequent the manosphere are women who want to marry very attractive men to… Read more »
But how much of that Alpha appeal is objective, rather than subjective?
Husband goggles make women’s necessity a virtue more often than not.
@Lucas, This leads to Rollo’s assertion that the mid life crisis is a natural and necessary stage of manly development; should we not then expect said crisis to occur in EVERY man at around age 37? This seems like the worthy subject of a national awareness campaign or something. Which of course is one of my primary goals in writing about the red pill to begin with. I don’t think a mid-life epiphany is some required rite of passage for men, but rather an unfortunate result of men (most often rudely) awakening to their being conditioned by the feminine imperative… Read more »
If you’re a guy in his 30’s/40’s and you’ve taken the red pill and you constantly work on yourself in all the important areas you can live a life most guys could only dream about. You can bang all the young hotties 18-23 cause you’re more attractive and alpha than guys their age, you also have no competition from guys you’re age as they are either married by 30 or are complete blue pill chumps. It’s literally like taking candy from a baby! Within the last 18 months I had two friends get married at the ages of 30 &… Read more »
Another thing here is that women who frequent the manosphere or blog in and around it usually tend to be the ones who married very attractive men with options. They tamed their alphas. They tend also to be very happy being married, and are happily married to their husbands. And why wouldn’t they be? They hit the jackpot. They married very, very attractive men to whom they are extremely sexually attracted.
How is that “another thing”? That was your third time saying that.
Ryan hit it on the head, and women wept.
I concede your point Rollo. Maybe I am a war bride. And the truth is that I met my husband while he was working a 9-5 during the week to help his family while partying with drug dealers and getting into fights on the weekends. He had a pregnant sort of ex-girlfriend and was from a family of men who were known to be fairly popular with women, from his father on down. 20 years later, he’s still far too much of his father’s son to let me lead him around by the nose. It’s just not in him (or… Read more »
“How is that “another thing”? That was your third time saying that.” The rarity of your marriage to SAM cannot be overemphasized. Most women will never marry a bull alpha. Most men will never have a woman who inspires the kind of awe you express every single day in these parts about SAM. Most men will never have a woman who loves them as you love SAM. Most women will never, ever feel attracted to their husbands the way you feel toward SAM. Because most women will marry men who are less attractive to them than SAM is to you.… Read more »
@Elspeth, spend half a day reading the MMSL forums, it’ll will enlighten you to the world you’ve been insulated from since you got married.
Rollo has a point. I was a sheltered church girl who had just
escapedleft home when I met my husband. So he was “alpha” to me.
I can accept Rollo’s premise that I am more war bride than my husband is some sort of “bull alpha”.
Some men, hell, maybe even many men, will marry women who will look at their husbands with fondness, caring, affection, intimacy, even love at times.
But many of those women in the deep, dark recesses of their hearts will at times ponder their husbands; these men who have literally broken their backs and their lives for them, and think:
“I could have done better. I have had sex with hotter men. I had much hotter men who wanted me. But I ended up with…. HIM.”
That’s reality, folks. To think otherwise is to ignore everything we all know.
“I can accept Rollo’s premise that I am more war bride than my husband is some sort of “bull alpha”.”
Color me unconvinced about your underestimation of SAM. By your own description he was 19 years old, he had already impregnated another woman, and comes from a family of men who are themselves bull alphas. He also has, by your own description, a face that “you can’t help but look at *** twice when he walks by”
You literally worship the ground this man walks on. From your descriptions of him, I’m not surprised.
Most men would LOVE to have a wife who speaks about them the way you speak about SAM.
I believe that most young women, should they ignore cultural cues and marry early rather than “maximizing their freedom” can be as enamored with my husband as I am with mine.
it’s this new thing that Rollo outlines here, where women bum around with different guys, making their hearts jaded, that accounts for the high level of dissatisfaction that most women experience. That, and the popular culture cesspool.
“This leads to Rollo’s assertion that the mid life crisis is a natural and necessary stage of manly development; should we not then expect said crisis to occur in EVERY man at around age 37?”
This fits squarely with my personal experience — I had mine at 36.
@Jose Wales Like you, once I opened my eyes to the truth about SMV, it changed the dynamics of my marriage. There’s probably a lot that can be written about the tactics women use to alleviate the competition anxiety they feel within a marriage when their husband’s SMV passes their own. For example, I’ve know quite a few men that are routinely disrespected by their wives, even publically humiliated. Looking at it through the red pill lens, I first thought this might just be congruence testing, where the wife is constantly checking and re-confirming her husband’s emotional strength & self-control.… Read more »
Being the parents of many children across a wide age range has given us opportunity to interact and socialize with lots of couples over the past 15 years. The reality is that as men are as likely to let themselves go as their wives are. Usually when you see a middle aged couple and the wife is pudgy, the husband is pudgy, too. The man who is suddenly a stud at 40 is a myth, frankly. Americans across the board are fat and slovenly. Husbands and wives are usually equally so. This huge gap between the husband and wife is… Read more »
Oh, and Rollo. I did poke around MMSL. I have the time today, so I looked. There wasn’t a whole lot there that I haven’t seen up close in real life. The stories I could tell you.
Insulated? I may be insulated in my particular marriage but we have been exposed to plenty in our extended family and have seen men and women do some despicable things to one another.
Thanks for the link, though. Actually reading the way some of the men felt was kind of heartbreaking.
Re: popular with women, already greatly narrows it down to him being part of the 20%. Women *compelled* to stare at his handsomeness, makes him part of the 1%ers who could have any woman and therefore do have many women. In other words, what works for him is EXACTLY the reason other guys suffer, and no it can’t work for us because it doesn’t work for us. I firmly believe the vast majority of young women can never be truly enamored of the men whom they can marry. The vast majority. A lot more than 80%, at least 95% if… Read more »
Interested in clarification on why getting a girl pregnant at 19 is in any way a reflection of being an ‘alpha bull’. plenty of feral white trash dudes get chicks pregnant in their teens…no disrespect to the individual ‘SAM’ who I know nothing about, but just curious as to the presumption of ‘alpha bull’ status being somehow confirmed by virtue of getting that girl pregnant at 19.
Interested in clarification on why getting a girl pregnant at 19 is in any way a reflection of being an ‘alpha bull’.
It isn’t in any way a reflection of being an alpha anything. You know how many black dudes have baby mamas?
Also of great personal interest: how would you take this knowledge and counsel a late 20s trad-con professional woman (works in one of the top hospitals in the country), who is still waiting for marriage (virgin), who’s finicky/fussy about every guy, gets hit on all the time, but suffocates the very few trad-con christian alphas (e.g., pastors-in-training) she dates (and doesn’t have sex with). I keep telling her to play to her strengths, which she clearly has according to paradigms expressed here. She’s hell-bent on marriage and starting a family of course, and has been through 5 years and counting… Read more »
@Steve, sounds a bit like she’s stuck in an adolescent social skill set:
Also, Single + Hot = Crazy
“I can accept Rollo’s premise that I am more war bride than my husband is some sort of “bull alpha”.” Color me unconvinced about your underestimation of SAM. By your own description he was 19 years old, he had already impregnated another woman, and comes from a family of men who are themselves bull alphas”. ————— “Interested in clarification on why getting a girl pregnant at 19 is in any way a reflection of being an ‘alpha bull’.” “It isn’t in any way a reflection of being an alpha anything. You know how many black dudes have baby mamas?” —————–… Read more »
Deti knew that part Steve, which is why I mentioned it. In reality, my husband had a lot of things that gave him a leg up with girls at a very young age. Picture a house in your childhood neighborhood where the family consisted of 5 very attractive girls, and the mom was pretty too. Every boy within a decent radius or who attended high school with those girls will know about that family and probably that house. And my father in law is a chauvinist that would make some of the guys in the sphere parts blush. Put that… Read more »
I keep telling her to play to her strengths, which she clearly has according to paradigms expressed here. She’s hell-bent on marriage and starting a family of course, and has been through 5 years and counting of looking for that ‘perfect’ trad-con religious alpha. She’s extremely health conscious and probably won’t hit the wall until her 40s. One of the first thoughts that occurred to me was something my husband often asks about women who should be able to attract a quality husband but never seem to marry: “If she’s so great why is she still single when she really… Read more »
Re: “plenty of feral white trash dudes get chicks pregnant in their teens” How plenty” What percentage of white trash teen dudes get chicks pregnant? If you don’t know, guess. 6%, maybe? 5%?
@SteveH tell her what she knows, i.e. all the good guys are taken already. Agree and amplify.
important point of clarification: she’s a family member, i’m trying to help her out. that’s why i posed the question – i’m very aware of the disconnect as you correctly note, elspeth. I’m looking for wisdom, based on the data/truths in this post’s content, that might actually get through to her. she’s currently ‘vacationing’ in another (very affluent) country, chasing a guy she mildly flirted with 6 months ago.
Steve H: She sounds like a lost cause, unlike the poster, Marietta, I recently saw deti giving solid advice to. This Marietta was very receptive to working on herself and will, in my estimation, eventually find what she is looking for. She’s facing the reality that even when she feels like she’s done everything right, there might be things out of her control that cause a relationship not to work out. Yet, she’s still striving. The woman has to *want* to change. There is no changin’ nuttin’ if the person will not do it themselves. Sometimes they are *inspired* by… Read more »
“Interested in clarification on why getting a girl pregnant at 19 is in any way a reflection of being an ‘alpha bull’.
“It isn’t in any way a reflection of being an alpha anything. You know how many black dudes have baby mamas?”
Elementary, my dear Steve and Elspeth. Preselection. SAM had already had sex with at least one other woman who thought highly enough of him to allow him to impregnate her.
thanks rollo and everyone. that ‘adolescent’ article is very pertinent, will find a way to gently pass it along when she comes back from ‘vacation’ frustrated as usual and asks me why ‘it never works out’.
Teaching people the odds doesn’t prevent them from buying lottery tickets, and the worst evangelist for “slow but sure saving and investing wins the race” is a lottery winner.
‘Men are shallow and only want young chippys they can manipulate instead of vibrant, women who are their intellectual equals’. Yep. Will let ya know when I meet a girl who is even close to my intellectual equal. *gloom*
@Elspeth = “perfect wife” (qv no-ma’am)
@GeishaKate = still trolling the Manosphere for her perfect Man
No perfect wife here, BPS. Just one who has learned (but hasn’t always known how) to appreciate her husband. What very little I have read that Rollo has shared about his own wife indicates that she is a very good wife.
It’s why I read his blog even though I comment on very few of his threads. He’s a paradox, and I often disagree with him, but he’s not so extreme as to insist that decent wives don’t exist or can’t be cultivated.
@BPS re:”vibrant, women who are their intellectual equals” Why don’t men appreciate antagonistic women standing up to them and arguing and contradicting and refusing to obey? Why, oh why? Why on Earth would a man prefer a sweet young thing who admired him and did what he said? It almost doesn’t make sense, somehow.
“Men are shallow and only want young chippys they can manipulate instead of vibrant, women who are their intellectual equals.”
Oh… well… if you insist. I mean, I wouldn’t want to make you into a liar, ma’am.
@jackblack I had “mine” around 38. Got sick and tired of holding down the fort with no appreciation or respect. So brainwashed back then that I asked myself if I was happy and honestly couldn’t say I was. Fast forward 5 years later. Hell yeah I’m happy…and the ex is really starting to look like shit. 🙂
Query: do you believe it’s possible for a female to hit the “seeking middle-ground man” stage of the late party years earlier in life, or even to develop it over her teens?
@superslaviswife I have no idea what you mean by “middle-ground man”. I think I know that what you *don’t* want to mean is “All of my girl friends think he’s hot, but he’s not all THAT hot. He’s merely ok, to me. I mean, yeah, sure, he’s fine-looking, but he’s had some major screw-ups, and he has a bad streak.” I think you want to mean “None of my girl friends think he’s hot, and he’s not hot, but he’s nice. He’s real nice to me, but he’s also nice to everyone. My grandmother thinks I should go out with… Read more »
superslaviswife – i say yes, rarely…went to a private christian school 15+ years ago and saw a few attractive girls date and marry good, decently-alpha (but not extraordinarily so) men…all these years later they are still together and seem relatively happy though we’re seldom in touch except via social media. i’d say these women had a couple characteristics which resulted in that early coupling: 1)religious but pragmatic, 2)came from good 2 parent family, 3)mildly secular in interests but not morally dogmatic.
After spending a good hour reading the “Adolescent” article and the comments, I was particularly struck by the juxtaposition of how “Matt King’s” comments were equal parts: 1) thoughtfully and compellingly contrarian and 2) strident self-righteous fodder for a 30-yr-old virgin-woman’s self-justification.
One thing I’ve noticed about older, single women–even those who really are working to keep themselves in excellent condition: their pack ages. I met one recently–she’s 37, but very fit, tan, blonde, pleasant, could’ve easily passed for 10 years younger. However, with her are a couple of bffs. These two are 35, 36, respectively, neither looks a day over 52. Talking to this gal a bit (I’m 41), I learned the grotes had been hanging together for totes since forevs. I wasn’t particularly hitting on her, and neither of her chums was playing much of a cockblock role, but I… Read more »
@jf12 – I dunno ay. I mean, a sweet, innocent, loving young thing? Nah men don’t want them! Us men are too shallow if we want them! I much prefer to bash heads with idiot customers and co-workers all day at work, then follow that up with butting heads with my wife all night. Getting relegated to the sofa is the best part of the night, every Real Man™ is totally down with that. The more nights in the week the better. @olympiapress – the pack def ages. I’ve often noted the good-looking one is the first to trot out… Read more »
Interesting. I’m late 40’s, very fit, tall. I could be termed “skinny” except i’m very fit.
At times girls I’ve been going out with when they start to get obsessive or infatuated will say “You could use some weight…”
I’ve wondered if this is an unconscious effort to make me less attractive by ‘giving me permission’ to get fat, let myself go etc. so no other girls would want to be with me.
I’m a l0ng way to go before I can say I have fully swallowed the red pill and I am applying it without thinking. However, I have been conciously working on self improvement in all aspects of my life and I can say I see the effects. In the last 18 months the attention I have gotten from the 18-25 category has been ridiculous. Looking 27-28 makes things even better. Any woman who says women generally don’t find older men more attractive is in hamster rationalisation turbo drive. The experiences speak for themselves – eye spazzes, blurting out odd comments,… Read more »
@walawala, a man’s fitness level is irrelevant to his attractiveness unless accompanied by the V-shape.
I feel satisfied knowing that what goes around comes around. The SMV charts are true, and there is at least some justice in the world. I’m going through hell now and have been for years and years. Knowing what I know now, I can just kick back and laugh knowing that all the girls who treated me like a dried up piece of dog shit for doing nothing but being nice to them are in for a hell of a ride. Have fun getting fucked when the tide comes in 🙂 And if you’re looking for sympathy, it’s in the… Read more »
@jf12 the point is my fitness level and how I look helps to keep me feeling positive so my inner game is better. I went out with several girls who all ended the same way: suddenly disappearing. But in various cases they were all trying to get me to stop jogging so much or going to the gym instead of meeting them at a particular time or instead of joining me… 6 months ago I got dumped by an HB8 just turned 35. She has a tattoo of another guy’s name on her ass, tit job, but horrible attitude. She… Read more »
The more I read into this red pill material, the more I realize that if you don’t have good looks, you’re not fulfilling a women’s true primal directive. Even with tight game, you’re just fulfilling the beta bucks strategy of a woman, in some way. Sometimes, I would ask a girl after a couple of times of banging her what was it that she found so attractive in me. More often than not, they would say, “I found you cute/handsome/attractive right from the start.” Before this, I thought she was merely rationalizing it but now I see that looks are… Read more »
@jf12: I mean “I find him hot. I don’t have many female friends and those I have are infatuated with their partners or older, so I don’t get much input from other women; but his n-count for the 7 years he bothered is higher than most people’s for their entire lives, so that must mean something. However he isn’t actively pursuing other females any more, as he quit ‘game’ about four years before meeting me. He is tall and handsome, but with a look about him that scares a lot of my family. He is a good provider, but not… Read more »
Re: “He is tall and handsome, but with a look about him that scares a lot of my family.
but his n-count for the 7 years he bothered is higher than most people’s for their entire lives, so that must mean something.” It means he’s an alpha, an apex alpha in fact.
Women do not believe how few men get a lot of women.
I wonder how delayed child bearing ties into the different phases and SMV graph.
I’ve known alphas in long term relationships who’ve put off child bearing for years and eventually dumped their wives. By the same token I also know women who’ve delayed child bearing for years until their SMV was at its lowest point.
Hedging their bets?
I guess if that’s your definition. Though I’ve had people saying Alphas don’t commit, Alphas can’t fulfill the provider role and all sorts, which leads to some men who by your definition are Alpha being classed as Beta by others and vice-versa. It’s hard to get a clear-cut idea of what separates Alpha from Beta when every guy and his dog insists that everything he is/wants to be is Alpha and everything he is not/dislikes is Beta.
I can’t wait for part III
re: alpha vs beta. I have an easy qualitative distinction: women are easy for alphas, women are difficult for betas. We could make it more quantitative if you want.
@jf12 ” I have an easy qualitative distinction: women are easy for alphas, women are difficult for betas. We could make it more quantitative if you want.” I find that this is the only real distinction between the two, mainly because of the Rationalization Engine (hamster, if you will). If a woman is attracted enough to a man, she’ll proceed to make any number of convoluted excuses for whatever shortcomings (of his) are revealed to her and any breaks in her own frame made to afford him her company. Interesting that the only inexcusable shortcomings are the ones that don’t… Read more »
alpha vs beta. I have an easy qualitative distinction: women are easy for alphas, women are difficult for betas. We could make it more quantitative if you want.
Maybe not always. I think they’ll do a little game playing if they think you have several on the side. Depending on how conservative they are. Or bitter.
Alpha vs. Beta: I was just thinking about this last night. I was feeling really lonely — and I was feeling really frustrated because I thought that feeling of loneliness was perpetuating itself. i.e., loneliness is very ‘beta’, and feeling lonely was only reinforcing beta character traits. Then I had the thought that the only difference was this: it isn’t that an alpha personality doesn’t feel loneliness. It’s that they react to it completely differently, to the point where it might not register as ‘loneliness’ to most people. Loneliness to a beta is a dead end. Loneliness to an alpha… Read more »
The timeline is valuable. I can’t help but think that there’s actually significant value remaining (but buried) in that timeline simply because, as presented, it is a straight line that really only directly pertains to a woman who never secures commitment of any kind. There are countably infinite paths a woman’s search for commitment could take, opening up the possibility of a 2nd dimension to that timeline wherein diversions from the “worst case” path of no-commitment are entertained for period where beta provisioning is secured, or alphas are found. I would imagine all sorts of things could change, the party… Read more »