Preventative Medicine – Part I

Red Capsules 1

If the red pill and Game-awareness have a lasting effect of any future significance, my hope is that the red pill becomes preventative medicine for young men’s feminized conditioning.

This awareness is the single greatest threat to the feminine imperative and feminine social primacy. I’ve covered aspects of this prevention in Hear Me Now, Believe Me Later, but this post was more of an after-the-fact perspective from older men’s experiences, and how they wish they’d have known about the red pill, Game and the intergender dynamics I’ve written about for the past 12 years of my writing.

When I wrote the now seminal post of Navigating the SMP and introduced the comparative SMV chart I had no idea how influential (and usefully accurate) it would be. My hope then was to educate (albeit a bit tongue in cheek) a younger generation of red pill men about the basic outline of how men and women’s sexual market value waxes and wanes during phases of each sex’s lifetime. This post – and more than few subsequent ones – was prompted by the desire to have an outline of what young men should anticipate in a contemporary, westernized gender landscape.

For as much as the critics of that SMV outline would have you believe it’s just an effort in wishful thinking on the part of older men convincing themselves of a higher sexual market value, the salient message of that graph is an uncomfortable exposing of the strategies women use in optimizing hypergamy over the course of their lifetimes. When considered chronologically, many identifiable patterns become apparent both in women’s motivations and behaviors at or around distinct phases of a woman’s life.

Depending upon her capacity to fulfill them at any particular phase (attractiveness), we can get a better overall idea of what is motivating a particular woman during that period of her life and adjust Game and/or expectations accordingly to a Man’s best advantage.

Roissy wrote a fantastic piece about the difficulty of Gaming women by age brackets back in 2010, and I’m going to refer readers with a mind for Game to cross reference this article while reading what I propose here. With a better understanding of these phases, and the SMV particulars of those phases, a Man can more easily adjust his Game, maintain frame, apply Amused Mastery, and host of other red pill / Game applications covertly and confidently with a reasonable expectation of outcome, or a better understanding of the traps that may await him.

One common understanding most men had with regards to the woman in my Saving the Best post, and how her rationalizations of her past and present sexual behaviors affected the man considering divorcing her, was that she was subject to conditions at particular periods in her life which motivated her to those behaviors. I’m not sure it’s realistic to expect the blue pill guy in that situation to have seen her sexual hangups and self-consciousness with him as the red flags that we can being dissociated with his condition – however, there is a certain awareness that comes with the red pill that helps us better understand what those flags are. The armchair counseling we give him is that he should’ve known that she was looking for her Beta provider when he married her – it was at that woman’s phase of life when women are looking to consolidate on her own long term security.

But can we really expect this from a guy who in all likelihood based his decisions to marry her on false presumptions and a thoroughly blue pill hope that she’d ‘come around’ to being more sexual with him later in their marriage? Can we really expect him to know what her motivations were then for her long term security when he’d never had the benefit of ever having those motivations spelled out for him by the red pill?

It’s with this in mind that I’m presenting that outline here.


Click for an expanded view.

What I’ve constructed is a loose and generalized chronology of how women effect their hypergamy over the course of typical woman’s life between the ages of 15 and 50. I’m fully prepared for the same outcries of generalizations and NAWALT that the infamous SMV graph inspired, but understand this, before any woman or femen comes up with those predictable objections, this is an outline; variables like culture, ethnicity, moralism, socio-economic status and outlying circumstance are all factors to consider when evaluating the motivations of any woman. This timeline however is intended as a roadmap to follow to get a better understanding of what motivates women at particular phases of their lives and hopefully help men to better prepare themselves for the strategies women will use to optimize hypergamy during those phases.

Understanding Hypergamy

Before we get too involved in this chronology it’s important to get a good idea of how hypergamy motivates women during these phases. A lot of the manosphere likes to define hypergamy as a woman getting the best bang for her attractiveness buck, but this is only one side of hypergamy. Using the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks principle of women’s dualistic sexual strategy it becomes clear that there is a drive to balance hypergamy between these two impulses. As I stated in Schedules of Mating, hypergamy wants to have both sides of the AF/BB equation satisfied by the same man, but rarely is this dualistic satisfaction met in the same individual.

It’s my belief that a drive for hypergamic optimization exists in both the impulse to secure the best genes (sexy son theory – Alpha Fucks) and the best provisioning / emotional investment (parental investment – Beta Bucks) a woman’s attractiveness can be leveraged for. The problem then is one of leveraging her attractiveness relative to any particular phase of her life and the circumstance that phase dictates for her. Needless to say a woman’s physical conditions, her personal decisions and modern social pressures will influence this ‘balancing act’ (careerism, feminism, religious conviction, etc.), but I think it’s only half correct to apply hypergamy only to the Alpha Fucks side of women’s dualistic sexual strategy.

It’s also important to consider that, from an evolutionary standpoint, hypergamy always seeks an optimization of either side of the AFBB motives that is better than any individual woman’s attractiveness realistically warrants. Keep in mind that modern social pressures (social media etc.) exacerbate this, and further distort a woman’s realistic evaluation of her own SMV at any given phase of her life. The most secure, monogamous attachments women will make are with Men they perceive are 1 to 2 degrees above what she perceives is her own relative SMV.

The Teen Phase

I ostensibly began the relative SMV graph at age 15 since this is about the post-pubescent age during which girls come into their maturation and teenage boys begin to take a real awareness of them. As you’ll see on the overall timeline, Alpha characteristics with regards to teenage attraction cues are largely based on physical attributes and prowess. These physical arousal cues girls find primarily attractive in adolescent boys (later men) will continue for the better part of a woman’s life, but during a girl’s formative years her foremost attraction is for the ‘hawt guy’ with a good body, the correct eye color and the right haircut.

Between the ages of 15 and 25 women associate and prioritize men according to their physical features. Even a relatively introverted guy with a Beta mindset and/or a brooding ‘creative’ personality can still be considered Alpha if his physical presence meets a girl’s archetypal attraction profile.

The main reasoning for this is fairly obvious in that physical cues (though also influenced externally) are primarily innate. This physical interest from adolescence through young adulthood is the top prioritization in attraction. These physical attraction / arousal cues are intrinsic; extrinsic attraction cues such as status / performance do factor in progressively as a woman matures, but the priority is the physical, and other extrinsic factors (status, Alpha confidence, Game, etc.), while definitely beneficial, are prioritized lower by the simple fact that a girl lacks any real experience of a guy with Game or the need for provisioning.

Long term provisioning potential during this phase is rarely even an afterthought for a young woman. From adolescence forward a woman’s dualistic sexual strategy primarily revolves around short term breeding opportunity – Alpha fucks. This can be attributed to a girl/young woman’s provisioning needs being relatively accommodated for by family, the state in some effect or even her own self-provisioning, as well as the breeding urgency that comes with hormones and youth.

I’ll add the caveat here that a woman’s prioritization of the physical is inversely proportional to the degree to which her provisioning needs are being met beyond seeking a mate or mating opportunities. In other words, if thing aren’t secure at home (Daddy Issues) an adolescent girl physically and mentally prepares herself for a long term mate earlier than when a solid masculine father is present in her life and the home. Further reading on the physical aspects of this phenomenon can be found here.

The short version for teenage Game (when you’re in high school) is that looks, physique and physical prowess are a woman’s attraction priority. This priority will build a foundation for her attraction cues later as she matures, but the primary importance is looks and performance.

The Break Phase

I’ve added this phase here because it’s become an increasingly too common, and potentially damaging, occurrence amongst young men I’ve counseled. Generally the Break Phase comes at or about the time of a young woman’s senior year (or shortly after) of high school when she’s forced into a conflict between continuing a monogamous relationship she began in her teenage years, and severing it as college or a simple want for ‘freedom’ looms closer as she approaches young adulthood, graduation and possibly moving away from her home for an indefinite period.

This is a major frustration for Beta minded young men given to a feminized conditioning that convinces them they’ll be rewarded for loyalty, support and building relational equity with a girl. I’m highlighting this phase because often enough it’s at this beginning point young men are prepared to compromise their life’s ambitions to play a role that their feminine conditioning predisposes them for. The danger being long term life decisions made in order to maintain a relationship he believes his sacrifices will be rewarded for in favor of personal goals or developing passions and personal potential.

Here is the warning for any late teen / early adult man: This is generally the point at which you’ll have to make some real personal assessments of yourself if you have a girlfriend. This will be the first test of the red pill versus your feminized conditioning. Most blue pill guys entertain the ‘invisible friend’ of an LDR (long distance relationship) for the first time at this juncture, or they alter their educational priorities to accommodate maintaining their relationship.

Statistically the girlfriend you expected to build a Disney-story life with will break up with you as her options expand while yours constrict (due to prioritizing her goals above your own). The decisions you make at this stage are up to you, but understand (barring personal convictions) this stage will come as a woman’s SMV begins it’s rapid ascent and along with it opportunities she’s been scarcely aware of until now.

The Party Years

The five year span between 20 and 25 are what I euphemistically call a woman’s ‘Party Years’. It’s at this stage women generally experience their peak SMV (22-23 y.o.), and as I stated in Navigating the SMP, at no other point in a woman’s life will so many socio-sexual options be available to her. A lot of manosphere moralists believe that women ought to marry and get pregnant during the party years since this is the point of peak fertility as well as physical beauty, and in the not so distant, pre-sexual revolution past this certainly made sense. However, under the social conditions of the last 50+ years, women’s priorities have changed.

The available opportunities – social, sexual, educational and career-wise – that a woman experiences during these years are afforded to her in relation to her SMV. At no point will you find a woman more cocky and self-assured of her predominance in society according to the option she enjoys relative to her attractiveness. Her personal image will be one based on merit, and while it’s certainly possible she is talented and/or intelligent, her opportunities are predicated on her attractiveness and the leverage it has on other’s (men and women) decision making.

The physical arousal priorities she had in high school remain a top attraction priority, however, as she matures into the new experiences her SMV peak affords her, status, and later affluence (wealth or potential provisioning) start getting added to the attraction mix. As women learn the utility of their relative SMV, and begin to understand a future need for long term provisioning (on some level of consciousness) they come to understand the transactional nature of their sexual agency.

It’s during the party years that women begin to prefer ‘dating’ men older than themselves. Generally this is between a 5-7 year difference, however Roissy postulated that even more mature men still have potential depending upon their own SMV:

Hard to believe, but it is often easier to bed a very young woman than an older woman, if you are an older man. This is because 20-40% of women are specifically attracted to older men. It is hard-wired in them, and this hard-wiring can be reinforced by poor family upbringing resulting from divorce of parents or absentee fathers. Single moms are the greatest source of future generations of slutty daughters the world has ever known.

During the party years, hypergamy is still firmly rooted in physical attraction / short term mating cues, however, women begin to develop an appreciation for personality cues of confidence and (Alpha) character as it relates to her long term investment. Later in the party years a woman’s hypergamy leads her to look for the Alpha bad boy who might also be molded (tamed) into her long term ideal – this is the Tarzan Effect, the want for an optimized balance of hypergamic interests in the same Alpha male. The idea is one that an Alpha Man might be tamed, in some cases coerced via pregnancy, into assuming the providership role the other half of her sexual strategy demands.

One point of attraction older men (who capitalize on their SMV potential) have is that their capacity to provide for more than themselves, and still maintain an above average physique, tends to be a form of preselection for this hypergamic balance as women mature past the latter part of their party years.

Just to be clear, as a woman becomes more cognizant of her decreasing capacity to sexually compete with the attractiveness of younger women, her attraction for more than just the physical aspects of men begins to assume a higher priority. Those aspects (status, confidence, affluence, worldly maturity, etc.) are typically found in men old enough to have had the experience to acquire them.

I should also add here that, there are incidents of women who, for some condition or circumstance opt out of their party years. Either their socioeconomic situation prevents it, or an early, unplanned pregnancy, or for religious convictions, but whatever the reason they move past this phase without a sense of having capitalized on it. In some respects this may seem to be a better choice than riding the proverbial ‘cock carousel’ into her Epiphany and Transitory phase (discussed in the next post), but it’s important to remember that these circumstances don’t disqualify a woman from the maturation process I’ve described here.

In some cases it may be the source of resentment at a man for having ‘held her back’ from all of the experiences her girlfriends went through (through which she vicariously lived), or it may be her coming into a better understanding of how other men (perceptually) meet her hypergamic balance better than the one she settled for earlier than she had the maturity to understand. As we’ll explore in the next continuation post, this resentment can be a later source of marital dissatisfaction (and divorce) for women approaching the Epiphany and Transitory phases.

This post is the first in a 3 part series. In part 2 I’ll outline the Epiphany, Transition, Security and Development phases.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

147 comments on “Preventative Medicine – Part I

  1. Interesting. Looking forward to reading the whole series.

    I disagree with your graph in so far as Status always matters to women. Even the teen years shows this. Whether or not he is the best looking guy on the football team, the team captain benefits significantly from a (relative) high status. Also, even less physically attractive high-status men can still get younger women with ease. I don’t think it is so much that younger women don’t care about status, but rather that they spend much of their time among age-peers for men, who rarely have high-status.

    Also, I was interested to note that you didn’t factor in Personality/Power/”Game” anywhere in your chart.

  2. Brilliant as always. Is this in any way a response to Lindy West’s attempted take down of the SMP graph? (Laughable, because she’d be hitting 0-2 at best.)

  3. Status matters?

    My bouncer buddy reliably informs me the jeanswest model gave a short, fat, bald, 45 year old Arab a blow job in the men’s room for a line of coke.

    I wouldn’t want to sully this board with the rest of his stories, you want to know something about women, befriend a bouncer.

    Yeh, status matters….party, woohoo!

  4. i disagree ONLY because in observation, AWALT. only the individual females ability to fully engage the activity defined in that graph is the defining factor.

    NAWALT but ONLY because lower value girls don’t have the capacity to “be like that”, but if they could, you bet your ass they would.

  5. The problem, from a societal perspective, is that the effort required to maximise looks (going to gym a few times a week for a few years, spending your money on nice clothes, whitening teeth, etc) is much much less than the effort required to maximise provisioning (4 years high school getting good grades, 3-4 years college getting good grades, 5 years post college building a career), yet the reward for men who choose to maximise provisioning is much much less than the reward for men who choose to maximise looks (maximising looks=16-24 year old women who are younger, hotter and less used, maximising provisioning=25 and older women who are passed their prime and used.)

    So under this system if a man wants the most attractive and most chaste/least used/fucked women, all his effort should go towards maximising looks (better to spend 4 years at a gym than 4 years at college), atleast of course until diminishing returns kick in, if they do that is.

    But even if diminishing returns kicks in, that doesn’t necessarily mean a man should start putting effort into provisioning because provisioning first has to have a prize worth putting into for it to be worth putting effort into it. Are post 25 already fucked women a prize? I’d say no. Better to put that effort into leisure activities.

    And thus, men forgoing college and playing video games becomes understandable as a social phenomenon.

  6. Or put another way, all the effort men put into maximising provisioning/making themselves husband material, can’t be used to leverage themselves a better woman. Thus there’s no point putting effort into it.

    On a side note, the feminine imperative’s insistence that men still put effort into maximising provisioning/becoming husband material despite what I’ve mentioned above that there’s no incentive for it, bespeaks of a belief that women are entitled to commitment/provisioning from men, rather than commitment/provisioning being a sacrifice/cost that men impose on themselves in order to leverage a better woman/better mating deal.

  7. As my blog perhaps takes on analysis based on fundamental physical attractiveness relativity, I’ll throw something out on the back of:

    “Hard to believe, but it is often easier to bed a very young woman than an older woman, if you are an older man. This is because 20-40% of women are specifically attracted to older men”

    This is totally true, and much of it is with relevance to women’s maternal and fairytale instincts taking over with regards to the need of marriage and kids – with willing beta providers. However, a greater reason older men can bed younger women is due to the more mature female group starting to doubt their impending physical decline. This older woman (23 to 28) will also have more insecurity issues and an ego that isn’t partial towards being alongside a man possessing greater/equivalent looks, and she will form an automated rejection process in her mind. So a man could in theory have a 25 year old woman, who is blessed with equally impressive looks in comparison to a 20 year old fresher flyer, yet be rejected by the former and accepted by the latter.

    In relevance to this post and women’s male partner decision-making in general, a read of the below post would be worth a few minutes of your life:

  8. @donal, no. N. O. Status does NOT matter to many women. Very many women, albeit not the sort you’d choose for yourself. One of my women confessees (I have been, throughout my life, a Confessor of sorts, mostly for young men I’ve counseled) has a 19 yr old son who was locked up in juvi several times, and is on probation for drug offenses. He’s pretending to attend a remedial high school (somehow made it to sophomore status after the fall semester) in order to continue to get his deceased father’s SS check, while living at his 15 yr old girfriend’s apartment. The confessee recently just wanted to vent, and didn’t want advice, about discovering evidence (texts, photos, etc) that her son is also newly sleeping with the girl’s mother.

  9. Much as I appreciate da GBFM, and abhor spelling-freaks, since I suspect the timeline graphic is going to be as widely reproduced as the SMV graph and has your name on it, I’d lose the first “i” in Phy(i)sicality. Otherwise you’re going to drown in the avalanche of whining and adhomming from the nay-sayers, who will pick on absolutely anything except the substance of your argument. Because they can’t.

    Post duly bookmarked in “In Case of Emergency, Break Glass” folder. Will be retrieved frequently, I predict, as my boys blunder on into young adulthood.

    This post will self-destruct in ten .. nine ..

  10. @chris “Or put another way, all the effort men put into maximising provisioning/making themselves husband material, can’t be used to leverage themselves a better woman. Thus there’s no point putting effort into it.” Succinct statement of current conditions. My short advice to young men, even to young men who want to become husbands, would be: DO NOT work on making yourself a better nice guy husband. Work 101% towards making yourself a more physically attractive bad boy boyfriend.

  11. With regards to the original SMV chart, especially the older peak for males, the salient point is one that women themselves ALWAYS throw out as a bone to formerly undesired young males: “Just wait, and then it will be your turn.” The funny part is, ALL of those women assumed that those males would wait for those women when those women are older! When in reality what happens, if they become desired, then those males become desired by other younger hotter women instead.

  12. More and more, and more and more and more, I’m coming to believe that ANYTHING that isn’t about a man’s physical attractiveness is merely going to affect perceptions of his beta provisioning. Which is fine, if that’s what he wants …

  13. Interesting. Girl I’m currently banging is 34 just divorced is up for banging. I see her once a week and apart from hanging out and banging spend no money on her. When we met online she said she was religious.

    Now she’s up for anything in bed.

    I just gamed her and offer no promises of anything. It’s fun

    I am just coming out of he fog of my previous oneitis so this topic is relevant.

    Before taking the red pill I was stuck in the idea of being a nice guy etx etx

    Now I realize if I was to go back to being THAT guy church girl would dump me in a second.

  14. Interesting. Girl I’m currently banging is 34 just divorced is up for banging. I see her once a week and apart from hanging out and banging spend no money on her. When we met online she said she was religious.

    Now she’s up for anything in bed.

    I just gamed her and offer no promises of anything. It’s fun

    I am just coming out of he fog of my previous oneitis so this topic is relevant.

    Before taking the red pill I was stuck in the idea of being a nice guy etx etx

    Now I realize if I was to go back to being THAT guy church girl would dump me in a second.

  15. Rollo…….

    When or if you make a “Rational Male” Vol. 2, this post MUST be in that book.

    Damn the breakdown on this. I mean, reading your blog for some years now I knew and had a understanding of all of this already but, man. This post just opens it up the “Red Pill” eyes even more. And yet, women “Claim” they don’t know or will balk at this not being true for everyone but, c’mon now. Deep down that small voice just gets louder as they age as it does with us. They just know how to play this “Game” with a more convert approach. Damn….


  16. Looks like you are dead on Rollo. The Alpha reinterest is what I was looking for, that’s why the divorce rate is so high. Women leave the beta with cash and prizes to ride the cock carousel again.

  17. Fuck that. I’m MGTOW. I was derailed through being the victim of sexual abuse and assault through the proto generation (I’m 43) – fighting back from massive traumatic weight gain…

    But trying to enter the SMP at approaching 50 appears futile – until we get some serious soul-searching and better quality women. Why should I go through all that effort for a whore?

  18. Well done, Rollo.

    Including the concept of “the Break Phase” is quite important here. My experience, though, is that the Break usually comes later, when a woman is finishing up college or thereabouts, or starting a job or grad school. So the Break from what I’ve seen happens during peak SMV or around the ages of 22 to 25.

    There could also be more than one Break – one at around 18, and another at around 22 or 23 I suppose.

    The point is that Breaks seem to occur with women at the time of major life events. High school graduation. College graduation. Moving to a new locale. Taking a new job.

    The reason a woman has a Break is that her circumstances are changing; which affects her emotions. She’s changing her surroundings and then there’s how she feels about that change.

    The other thing to keep in mind around Breaks is that it forces her to make a decision about whether the change is more important than the man she is with when the Break happens. Most of the time she decides that the change is more important. This is likely because, well, she’s a strongindependentwoman ™ and she will always be able to find another man (or so she’s told).

  19. I wouldn’t want to sully this board with the rest of his stories, you want to know something about women, befriend a bouncer

    Ha.  I worked as a bouncer for awhile about 8-9 years ago when I was in between professional white collar jobs.

    What an awakening.  I saw things, heard things, knew of things that took place that I previously couldn’t have imagined.  Definitely got a glimpse into a different side of female nature.  Of course, some would argue those are the exception made up of the small minority of “unrestricted bar sluts”.  And that actually might be partially true, but it certainly doesn’t capture the entire dynamic.

  20. The graph in this article should be printed out and posted on every guys bathroom mirror so he can see it every morning.

  21. Just a PSA for this series: Bear in mind that I’ll be explaining individual dynamics as I progress, but I’ll do my best to keep up with comments over the course of the series. I haven’t done a series since Plate Theory and the Iron Rules, so this should get interesting.

    @donalgrame, bear in mind the phase of life I’m covering at this point. In a girl’s formative years, status is contextual and relative to her experience with whatever that status represents to her. Obviously a celebrity status will factor in prominently, but keep in mind what I’m outlining here is a girl’s / woman’s priority for attraction/ arousal.

    An equally good looking boy who’s the captain of the chess team wont have the same gravitas as the varsity quarterback for sure, but it’s important to remember that between the ages of 15-20 women are only peripherally aware (but learning) of how social proof from her acculturation and peer groups influence her attraction. Her priority for arousal is instinctually based on the physical; secondarily social proof and status play a progressively more important role as she matures into appreciating it.

  22. OK. I haven’t read the whole post yet. But I brought up your page today, “on a mission”. But this comment does sit into the point of this post and this request, that idea of a synopsis, a prescriptive list of what is what.

    I have just gotten back from an appointment at “Behavioral” at the Veterans Administration. I am there for ADHD and sleep issues. I have had 3 appointments so far. Two with a psychologist that specializes in sleep disorders and one with a psychiatrist for the ADHD meds.

    Now, me being me and then being them, the issue of Red Pill has come up., because I fucking bring it up. To me, it is root and foundation. To me, it is seminal. And I find it disgraceful that the entire “health care” industry has fucking dropped the ball so badly on this whole issue for so long. For Freud to even ask, after supposedly being the “father” of psychoanalysis that literally created an industry where nothing like it existed before, to fucking ask, in exasperation I might add, because he didn’t know, “What do women want?”, is fucking evidence of how fucked up and how wrong that whole discipline is.

    Women want alpha fucks and if necessary, beta bucks, you bunch of quacks. Duh. It so obvious to us over in the Rollosphere. And once you make that “jump street” observation and then all kinds of other shit just clicks into place.

    So, in the course of detailing my “positions”, I start to state my case. The psychologist says “You make some good points, but ….” and the psychiatrist sort of begrudgingly agrees with some stuff I say, but has a smiling sort of condescension to me. But I have had more time with the psychologist so he is leaning more in agreement to what I say. And it is really interesting because the guy is big, large, beta, overweight, wearing some Dockers. And I am kind of beginning to “win the day” with him.

    Now, the “mission” part.

    This place is a big, large, regional VA hospital. I don’t really want to call it a “gravy train”, but it is. It is almost a sort of political “third rail” that neither liberals nor conservatives wish to fuck with. And it is right up with Breast Cancer as both a source of public and private funding. The parking lot is full of these newish, SUV things, all with giant graphics all over the sides, hood, and windows proclaim “DAV” or “AMERICAN LEGION” transportation services where they drive out into places even a 100 miles away and get these vets for appointments. And then under some of the graphics there are “donors”, “sponsors” listed like “G.E. Services Division”, where corporations or other donors, donate both time and money to this endeavor. This is exemplary of the cash that exists in this sector, and you can imagine the embedded, preconditioned appeal that benefits for veterans and programs that aid veterans can have to both public and private sector sources of funding.

    Now, I sort of dragged the discussion with the therapist guy today into this realm, this idea of “extra-V.A.” activity to tap into this funding. I first asked what sort of “outside” stuff as a psychologist would his relationship with the V.A. permit him to perform. He said, “That’s a very grey area. But, whatever it is, it must jive with the “mission” of the V.A.”

    I then mentioned you (Rollo) and the “Casualties” post and while the rest of the V.A. and military mental health community wants to focus on combat stress, separation, substance abuse as causal in suicides, you have gone straight after the relationships in the men’s lives as the prime source, the main cause, in soldier suicides.

    The analyst guy said “Yes, there is some truth in that.” So I started to push him into talking about how to create some “non-profit” entity that can address this topic, and the introduction of Red Pill, and a psychology that is based with Red Pill, with the tenants of Red Pill as deep assumptions, in the counseling of veterans. He said, “Well, to get V.A. funding they have to agree with what is said.” But that need not be a deal killer. The point is to after the fuckers and make them agree.

    Now, I am fucking going to make this claim and I don’t give two fucks if any of you agree with me or not. In the University of Rollo, I am the goddam Valedictorian, the best student that ever came through this place. I ate this stuff for breakfast and I shitted Rollo Tomassi Red Pill turds. As I evaluate the specific sensual stimuli and interpret it and make judgments and determine value and actions, this stuff sits right there in the forefront with me to the point that the Health Care professionals that here me describe my life and what I wish to accomplish with them claim that I am being too simplistic and I reply “No, the fuck I am not. You need to pull your head out of ass and come to fucking Jesus.”

    My biggest issue in dealing with them is that the doctrine is huge. And I only have a few minutes. That is not really enough time to make the whole V.A. and military health care establishment accept the Rational Male way of looking at shit.

    But I think there is both an opportunity and a responsibility here.. I am in the process of determining actually what that is. Yes, it is a daunting task but so fucking what. It could be merely informational, something on the internet, focused for Veterans, Veteran’s mental health issues. (And to put Veterans mental health issues into perspective, when I go to see the guy, I walk this long, long fucking hallway, and pass all these office doors, and those offices contain therapists. It appears to me that the mental health aspects of what that facility does is as significant an activity as the actual medical care the y deliver. There a lot of nutty fucking veterans or I think just really a lot of nutty men, and the V.A. is merely an outlet that tends to have majority of its patients as men.) Wouldn’t it be a shame that all that activity and money being spent is just jerking off because these people couldn’t see the forest for the trees or all of them graduated from the Dr Phil school of psychology?

    So this is a huge thing, Veteran’s mental health, and there are sources of funding, grants, donors that if we put a viable idea into place and I begin to shop it, and I promise you that if can begin to turn some V.A. therapist, then I can pitch some guy at the D.A.V or the American Legion or some guy from G.E. Services division that what we offer is valid and deserves funding.

    Now, Rollo, I hear (second hand because I don’t really read comments any more) that you kind of mentioned the pitfalls of having internet content that is “click driven” and I understand exactly what you mean.

    Ever since I posted my first rant people have said “You need to start a blog” and I would think “For what? Does the internet really need one more angry beta ranter and would I chase page views? What would I hope to have as a goal? That I could get into some ad network where I would pop up “” or “” or my fucking favorite, “” when someone clicked on one of my posts and get paid because I did it?. Would I find out, like Matt Forney, that I could research the fuck out of some subject that contained something really important that would be of benefit to men, maybe something like “Managing your Red Pill Anger”, and get maybe 17 page views and then spend 30 minutes creating something like “The 10 fattest feminists” and get traffic that brings my site down?

    So I am gonna offer you an alternative to chasing clicks and preaching to your choir. “Women suck, Can I get an “Amen’? SMV Chart, hallelujah. You, woman in the back row, wearing that red lip stick, chasing that alpha fuck and looking for Beta Bucks, you are a sinner, attention whore. Now get up here and ‘come home’.” I am not accusing you of doing it, but there are ways to get this gospel out and do it in a more dignified manner than using Adsense and being click driven.

    This idea just came to me this morning so I don’t know exactly yet where I am going with this Veterans idea. I am going to continue to hash the idea out with this therapist and use his expertise within the system. But you know what? This is something that is worthwhile and is of service to men.

    And I am asking you to do it with me, to lend your luster to it. “Casualties” did more to explain this rash of military suicides than all of the stupid studies done. My niece is a military wife assigned to Camp Lejeune and after hearing my assessment of what was wrong in her marriage, that she was married to a nice guy white Marine Corpsman and she wanted him to pull her hair and take charge, she said “The whole Marine Corps is beta. You can just see it. In all of the cars, the wife drives. In base housing, all the wives are in charge of the house.” You were really the first to see this. For all these “The Few, The Proud” rough and ready Marines (Yeah baby, I knowz what I am talking about, 1st Battalion, the P.I. Been there, done that) we rally got 3 Divisions of Betas to let loose on the world. So no wonder all of the problems of men, exist among soldiers, sailors, and Marines in fucking droves. I was nutty as fruit cake when I came out of the Marines and not from any military stress but from the reality of living the max beta life, being despised by women for 4 years because I was a Marine beta, and not understanding the why or the what of it.

    And this is just the beginning. I made the claim to the therapist that if someone wanted to actually cure depression then fucking lift weights, learn game, create some testosterone in your body that will step on your Cortisol and kick your fucking depressions’s ass. And then get some real options and you won’t be sucking on a Smith and Wesson. I am willing to take on this bureaucracy, some how, some way. I offer conviction and technical services, web stuff, and the ability to talk Rollo Tomassi Red Pill shit in a demanding and rapid manner to win real ass converts.

    Now what I need is that “Elevator” pitch, that quick synopsis, to throw at health care providers and these various sources of funding, something to put into a website, that states the mission and underlying justification.

    And I want you help me to create it. Fuck a bunch of clicks. We are better than that goddamit.

  23. @ Rollo – Alpha re-interest intrigues me. It certainly explains the absurd “cougars” I see out in the bars. Is it that the preference for Alpha re-emerges once a women has handled security/provisioning? Or is it there all along, just sublimated by the urgency of provisioning needs?

  24. One point about your SMV chronology chart I’m wondering about. Women in their 30s “ought” to be most interested in betas (especially relatively high status and high provisioning betas like I was), but they were not interested in me when I was in my 30s. The majority of the women in their 30s I was meeting, e.g. in 1984, were newly divorced and seemed to feel they had missed out on their party years while married. About the only interest I seemed to be generating at the time, what little there was, was from golddiggers, seemingly impressed by my abundance of bananas.

    1. @jf12,

      I should also add here that, there are incidents of women who, for some condition or circumstance opt out of their party years. Either their socioeconomic situation prevents it, or an early, unplanned pregnancy, or for religious convictions, but whatever the reason they move past this phase without a sense of having capitalized on it. In some respects this may seem to be a better choice than riding the proverbial ‘cock carousel’ into her Epiphany and Transitory phase (discussed in the next post), but it’s important to remember that these circumstances don’t disqualify a woman from the maturation process I’ve described here.

      In some cases it may be the source of resentment at a man for having ‘held her back’ from all of the experiences her girlfriends went through (through which she vicariously lived), or it may be her coming into a better understanding of how other men (perceptually) meet her hypergamic balance better than the one she settled for earlier than she had the maturity to understand. As we’ll explore in the next continuation post, this resentment can be a later source of marital dissatisfaction (and divorce) for women approaching the Epiphany and Transitory phases.

      I would consider that the socio-sexual environment of the mid 80’s may have been such that women were more predisposed to marriage earlier and thus more prone to this conditional resentment and later divorce.

  25. Re: circumstances and environment. Yes, but. Supposing a young woman “settled” for a young marriage (e.g. age 21) to a high-achieving beta, and at age 30 he was an even better beta and even more high-achieving than ever. Clearly, we know, or ought to know, she is not less likely to resent him and to divorce him even nowadays.

    The overall point I’m trying to make is that being a beta never makes a man more attractive, even during the life chronology when the women are supposedly on the hunt for betas.

  26. @rollo, Thanks for the response.

    I go back over there this week to see a medical doctor. I don’t see the psychologist guy for a couple of weeks. Let me research some things, and I will walk into the office of the DAV and American Legion reps to inquire about grants, funding policies, provider rules etc.

    Here is a weirdo fact. A couple of years ago, I was pulled into discussions about creating a web site for a non-profit. The principal was this woman who had been wounded in Iraq and had suffered PTSD. She had some idea about “creating a farm” where PTSD sufferers could come and get plant therapy. I make light of it, but her premise was these PTSD just wanted to be away from people and being shut in aggravated everything. So the farm thing was some way to get out, do something constructive, sort of be around “like” people, and slowly begin to re-integrate. Sort of a nutty new age idea but she has been down that pipe so there was some credibility to her claims. She said the army doctors just feed her pills and put in BS group therapies. She had some former Army nurse in her group that was a certified treatment provider who was skilled at writing grants. She claimed she could get an automatic grant of $500,000 merely by having the non-profit tax ID number and going through the motions of submitting a grant because she “was a female soldier who had been wounded in conflict”. And that was just one source of funding that was available to her, mostly because at the time, head trauma, and PTSD were the defining “wounds” of the Iraq conflict. So there was a lot of funding available for it, both public and private. The 500 G was from the goverment. And the others were from foundations or private sources.

    So let me poke around and I will get back to you. I would expect the people at the DAV and American Legion will probably give me a listen. And I shall inform you of what they say. I guess at some point I need a direct way to write to you.

  27. It has been my experience that the re-awakening of alpha interest in a woman’s 40s coincides with the increased libido prior to menopause. So in the chronology is the red area of much of a woman’s 30s ascribable simply to decreased libido?

    I know, I know, some of you young guys and gals are going “But I thought it was going to get better in my 30s.” Again, I’m not sure, but it is possible that *estrogen* is peak in the 30s, but the ratio of testosterone to estrogen is peak in the 40s.

    So what would be an evo-psych reason for women to exhibit decreased libido, while wanting a provider for already-produced children? One possible reason would be to avoid incest: a 31 year old woman who had a boy when she was 16, for example. And then a reason for a later rise in alpha-directed libido could be a last-gasp chance at another baby at age 41.

  28. @glenn Alpha reinterest is when the beta’s wife gets tired of fucking him and realized that she had better sex in her 20’s pre marriage. Thus the divorce rate goes up as these women feel they are “missing out on life” aka mid life crisis and want to be fucked again like the “one that got away” fucked her. The attitude is best described in Saving Your Best. Where she didn’t tell her husband that she was sexually more attracted to the Alphas in her past than the guy she committed to in marriage. This is VERY common and I feel the main reason for divorce. The woman becomes unhappy/unattracted to/ or simply loses respect for her husband (if she ever really had any) and wants to feel the long lost tingle again before it’s simply “too late”.

    1. @kaizerso – Interesting insights but I think there is something more that you are missing. Why is it she starts missing those alpha humping days? She didn’t do so for a while and starts again. Saying she was bored doesn’t explain anything. What causes her to “Alpha up” again whereas she didn’t for a while? I wonder if income level, net worth, career etc are important factors as well? Or is it perhaps more horomonal like @jf12 says? I don’t think it could be just boredom, no?

      I mean, it does seem weird to me. I lived in NYC till 2009 when I was 46 so I saw plenty of single women well past their ‘sell by’ dates roaming the bars. Often with too much of everything jiggling around and sloppily drunk before too long. I decided long ago to age gracefully and only really saw much bar action because I was a musician playing tiny little open mics and showcases in the village and fell in with a bunch of musicians for a while which took me out to their gigs etc. And you’d see these sad 40 something women, trying to relive their glory. Don’t get me wrong, I was working the mostly younger, hot, funky chicks in that scene and the musician angle is quite a strong play in the bar scene. I mostly focused on the non-musician women in the audience where my status was high as a performer.

      But still, in Manhattan there is a particularly virulent strain of denial and cougaritis. Divorced, or never married, they reek of desperation. They will literally throw their pussies at you as you walk by if you are anything but the busboy – and even then, if he’s cute or has a joint, well…The never married version is even sadder as the SMP in Manhattan skewed in men’s favor to begin with. I had a good female friend who stayed single way too long and entered her 40s while still young looking and cute. But still, she was not 25 anymore and basically she ran through a bevvy of alphas who would just use her. One out of town drummer from the U.K. would just come whenever he wanted, stay as long as he wanted to, spend her money and then go home and not speak to her again till he wanted to visit again. He was hot and young – so she had no power over him. None of them ever bothered to even try to date her and she couldn’t understand now. They just fucked her. Last I heard of her was a friend who saw her at a party – she’s now 47 – falling down drunk, slurring her speech and making a fool out of herself. Yeah, it’s only going to get better from there.

      Her case is what I used to call “Sex in the City” sydrome – my shorthand for describing the eternal state of female singlehood and how it was lionized by the popular culture and then adopted full on as a lifestyle by many women. I now know that they were just playing archetypes for us to learn from, like training films. Sigh…

      It may be too late for me at 51 – we’ll see, I’m truly having a hard time adjusting to all this – but for fuck’s sake, let every young man in on this stuff. Pass out the Red Pill to the young guys coming up, their lives will be immeasurably improved if they start out with this knowledge.

  29. I think that women hit two walls, the first in their late teens, and the well-known one in their late twenties.

    The first wall is the end of “the bloom of youth”, which is the period that starts at the beginning of puberty and lasts until a couple (occasionally, a few) years after the completion of puberty.

    This bloom of youth was well-known (and obvious) until relatively recently. It makes even plain girls pretty, and allows the truly beautiful to be actual “10s”. (This is why I agree that it is not possible for a woman in her twenties to be a 10. A 10 at the age of twenty something would have been an 11 in her teens.)

    This is not as obvious now, because young women are being encouraged to start using makeup as early as possible, by their mothers, older sisters, and other members of the aging slut cartel, because the bloom of youth cannot shine through spackle.

    The fact that the bloom of youth makes even plain girls pretty, for a while, is one reason why the common marriage age in the 1800s, and earlier, was rarely past the mid to late teens, irrespective of what some digital documents claim. I know this because, when I was at university, I had access to physical books that were printed in the 1800s and earlier.

    But visiting the closed stacks of a research library is not necessary, since a simple thought experiment will do. Do any of you think that it is plausible that the following was a common scenario, especially when slut shaming was considered good and proper?

    “Oh look, honey, our girl just had her first period, and has now become a young woman. But wait! I just had a brilliant idea: let’s let our horny and pretty daughter run around the town/village for 8-10 years, perhaps even ‘making memories’ on the cock carousel, before she tries to get married to someone like that promising man who has established himself, and is now looking to start a large family, while also maintaining the reputation and respect that he has earned.”

  30. Re: conditions and situations. In looking again at the proposed chronology, it struck me that there may be some high-frequency/fractal stuff going on.

    I think a life course perspective would help here. Your outline portrays a typical woman’s life history, including getting married at age 28 (say), getting divorced ten years later (say), swearing off men maybe for a couple of years, and then trying for another marriage at age 40 (say). In other words, the typical serial monogamy.

    Which also applies to her earlier hookups. Getting “serious” steady at age 17, breaking up ten months later, taking a break from dating (not counting the guy she hooked up with last weekend, because that was one time, and not counting seeing Jake every other month or so because, well, because he’s Jake); it’s all the same pattern just at different time scales.

  31. [i]The woman becomes unhappy/unattracted to/ or simply loses respect for her husband (if she ever really had any) and wants to feel the long lost tingle again before it’s simply “too late”.[/i]

    I once read a comment from a late-20s woman on an online dating discussion forum. She was complaining about a recent dating experience that had turned sour: “I had 3 dates with him and I could tell he was very shy and a little awkward…” she said, “…but I was willing to keep dating him because he made a lot of money.” “Now, it’s been more than a week since our last date and he hasn’t called me, I don’t know if he’s too scared to have another date with me or if he’s not interested, but man, it feels pretty bad to be rejected by someone you thought you were better than.”

    Just marinate on that comment for a minute. Put yourself in Mr. awkward-late-blooming-successful-nerd’s shoes: the girl who laughed at you in high school, scoffed at you in college, was oblivious to you for several more years, is now willing to date and potentially marry you! Don’t be fooled though, it’s quite clear that, beyond your green stuff, she still has ZERO respect for you.

  32. I would move ‘Beta Long Term’ (above) as well as ‘Status’ and ‘Affluence Provisioning’ (below) all 2-3 years to the left (earlier chronologically).

    And perhaps jumping the gun here, but the ‘Epiphany’ + ‘Transition’ phases on this chart may be marked by ‘Competition Anxiety’ but they more profoundly are marked by an existential crisis of ‘Who am I, what is my long-term social value, and am I going to get the husband and family I’ve dreamt of since age 5?’. I would emphasize that crisis more centrally to the diagram.

  33. @glenn I don’t know why some women regain the Alpha interest. I think of it as a mid life crisis thing. Some do, some don’t. I’m 43 and it took me 4 years to finally come around. Being in divorce debt for 3 years didn’t help. Once the bitch was paid off, other women started showing up…interesting. Now I honestly I really don’t give a fuck much about women over than occasional sex. They are too much of a liability to me. I wish you well!

  34. The fact that the bloom of youth makes even plain girls pretty, for a while, is one reason why the common marriage age in the 1800s, and earlier, was rarely past the mid to late teens,

    Quite true. In Spain, in the XVI and XVII centuries, a 14 y.o. girl was “a girl of marriageable age”. I think it could be the same in other countries.

    And if older women had not labeled relationship with teenagers (which are women fully able to reproduce), people would accept that mid and late teens is the age where women are most beautiful.

  35. @donalgraeme, this is relevant to the ‘looks’ priority girls have:

    From age 5 to 20, the only thing she notices about boys is whether they are cute, hot, beautiful, dreamy, adorable, sexy, etc. It is the only thing that attracts her to a boy, and it is the only aspect about them where she notices details — eye color, hair color and style, height, tanned or not, which celebs they resemble, and so on. She also recalls how they dressed — sweatpants, sideways hat, emo earrings, etc. To reiterate: what she notices about boys does not mature at all from kindergarten to senior year of college.

  36. @Rollo

    This post just sparked me to think of the AFC/Pre-game me. I took the “red pill” at age 45.

    But looking at “value”…I had a very high-profile job and high status but low self-esteem when it came to women.

    So even though I did get hot girls–models etc, I never really fully appreciated it and understood what I could pursue. Things kind of fell into my lap or they didn’t but I never went for what I wanted.

    Game and understanding your own SMV as well as a woman’s is crucial to self-actualization.

    I am getting over a oneitis from my so-called “dream-girl” that I gamed and ended up being dumped by.

    But in reflecting on it the fact she’s now 35 and reading your post helps to put into perspective this whole experience.

    SMV is a way of looking at self-esteem and personal value. The fact a guy can raise his SMV is critical to breaking out of the concept that at 40 a guy is only entitled to leftovers.

  37. Good stuff. From the male perspective, the important thing about these “breaks” is they completely change your relative SMV.

    I went to a fairly upper middle-class high school and saw numerous middle-of-the-pack jocky girls rocket up to real-world 8s. The hottest girls were warped into a different dimension of modeling/arm-candy/etc and very high status men. Meanwhile, most men head into college needing to rebuild their social status from scratch, while their soon-to-be ex-gfs are automatically invited into the in-crowds.

    Likewise, in the post-college “party years”, women will be swooped upon by older men with the job, the house, the luxury car, and the sexual skills. These men will seem very marriageable, and perhaps some are. In the corporate environment they will encounter an entirely different kind of alpha male. And of course, the experienced playboys at the clubs.

    But, again, the man experiences another dramatic SMV reset as he loses access to his college social environment and takes an entry-level job. a shared living situation, and struggles to pay his bartabs. All while the girls around him go into materialistic dating overload.

    You need to be aware of these SMV breaks (I certainly wasn’t prepared), as the rules change with each step.

    The best course of action is to date the youngest women you can stomach while they are still on the other side of the breaks. If I were to do it over, I would have done everything to nail-down the LTRs for as long as possible until I could have fully transitioned into the new phases of life.

  38. Yep,

    I would say the graph is spot on. The dynamic of the girl going off to college and realising her increasing options and SMV was the exact reason of my breakup with my ex when she turned 18 and off to Uni.

    And it wasn’t as if i wanted it to happen. It was simply her need to want to break things off by increasing the amount of shit-tests and causing unnecessary drama.

    I simply had no chance. I pretty much know the dynamics a woman will go through simply by looking at the graph as I see it all the time and is a never ending narrative.

    A woman gets divorced in her mid thirties with a child and figures:

    “Hey, i’ve given birth and fulfilled my biological imperative, time to paaaarty with the gardener while my husband is away on business”

    Or simply divorce straight up and live the cougar lifestyle.

    Beyond 40, a woman is pretty much equal to a thirsty beta who will sleep with anything given the opportunity. Something i’ve personally experiencedwith on a few occasions just for shits and giggles, being a young twenty something.

  39. @walawala …
    “Game and understanding your own SMV as well as a woman’s is crucial to self-actualization.

    THIS! This I feel is the greatest piece of understanding we Man of aged years/experience must have. Younger guys internalize this, older Men have to reignite this. It’s the reconstruction phase for us Men. Losing what we THOUGHT we lost (game), only to realize later that it was in us all along. All we have to do is understand our OWN smv. Can do..

    I too thought my dreamgirl would reciprocate my efforts to please (yuck) only to get broken up on.. Lesson learned! Now for me, the reconstruction begins thanks to posts like these. Not malicious intent to hurt or break hearts, but a clear precise understanding of who we are what we mean and most important, (based on graph above) understanding hypergamy!


    Great post dude! Do you believe govt subsidies(food stamps, etc) play a role in any of this? Ive noticed that once the Beta provider is no longer needed to provide, (provision stage) that this increases their hypergamy for alpha fucks. (“My kids are cared for, I don’t need a man. Lets hit the bars and find a fish to feed off of”)

    Love your posts. Cant wait for the continuation.. Reader for life!

  40. “More and more, and more and more and more, I’m coming to believe that ANYTHING that isn’t about a man’s physical attractiveness is merely going to affect perceptions of his beta provisioning.” true. Make as much money as possible, get physically built, like MMA built, don’t give a #uck about her (no oneitis).
    Rollo, this is one of your best. Do not be discouraged by the few comments.

  41. She does not care about you. Remember that, then you stop with relationship equity, and you suddenly realize, you should not care about her either; caring is a losing proposition and beta

    [The Cardinal Rule of Relationships
    In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.]

  42. ” For Freud to even ask, after supposedly being the “father” of psychoanalysis that literally created an industry where nothing like it existed before, to fucking ask, in exasperation I might add, because he didn’t know, “What do women want?”, is fucking evidence of how fucked up and how wrong that whole discipline is.”

    The significance of what the manosphere has solved is astounding.

    Men have grappled, with exasperation and without much progress, (not withstanding Ancient wisdom of women, genesis story etc) until THIS generation.

  43. The term “Feminine Mystique” just popped into my head and reminded me how completely sick I am of hearing it.

    Very happy to see posts and graphs like this take that idol out to the barn and put a bullet in its head.

  44. Great article!!!!

    Roissy is 100% correct. I am just on the right side of my peak SMV and I still can’t believe the access I have to women in their 20s. I was told I would be “aged out.” Not true.

    Dear young men, I bring good news: if you stay in shape, work on your game, avoid the marriage trap, and make money, the power balance between the sexes slowly but completely reverses. You will have access to women of all ages and you will be in control.

    My experience is this. Unmarried, childless women in their 30s are the absolute worst. Their ovaries are screaming. They’re neurotic and unstable. They are in many ways the most interesting sexually. But the screaming ovaries, the brain chemical cocktail flooding their systems telling them to reproduce and nest, the social pressure caused by the cultural messages and their marrying and reproducing friends cause them rabidly to crave with all their being the “fairy tale” — the high end engagement ring, expensive parcel in the burbs, part time work (or no work), provider husband, 2.3 kids. They can be tricky to game. Many are Alpha Widows. They sense the hard wall approaching.

  45. Re: women “being unknowable, random or in worse case fickle or ambiguous.” The true mystery is why men put up with it. Over at J4G, there was a profoundly redpill comment today “Without male libido to filter our perceptions, women are just incompetent men with bad attitudes.”

    Yes, it sounds misogynist, but the punchline is “But we (men) must like them (women) anyway.” Imagine, as a man, being treated by a small whiny demanding man the way that most women treat most men.

  46. Re: “My experience is this. Unmarried, childless women in their 30s are the absolute worst.” My experience too.

  47. Re: women in their 30s

    Well crap.

    I am screwed.

    Women in their 40s are mostly useless, 50s entirely useless and I’m not currently the guy who can go 20s. Oh well, I guess it’s time to start playing single moms and setting bad examples for their children, or perhaps a turn to faith and a monastic order.

    Why do I feel like I’m at a rummage sale?

  48. “I’m not currently the guy who can go 20s.” Have you tried?

    That being said, my experience with unmarried childless women in their 30s was when I was in my 30s.

  49. @Bach;
    Unmarried, childless women in their 30s are the absolute worst</I.
    Aye man, but were they not thus always?
    {sneaks off to Saino's yellow-label gondola-end to battle with surprisngly aggressive but foolishly unfit chinese grandmamas for the out-of date fish. Fuckoff dwarf. Chin empire?.. Ah'll fucken chin
    yee, here’s .. Emperor Malkie. Your bristly sons I’ll reserve as impromptu footwear).

  50. @rollo They’ve “lived responsibly” for so long and for so little appreciation that when that true realization is made they feel the need to move.

    Excellent quote. My other favorite quote from you is “what comes across as love is really a liability”. Man you really helped me focus. Thank you! BTW I own your book also.

  51. I suppose y’all have seen this about 17 yr old Johran McCormick. He was supposed to be in New Orleans for a week and his parents were unconcerned and unaware of his whereabouts for some days. He was found in Houston in bed making noises with a 16 yr old girl when her little brother heard them and entered the room to check on his sister, who was grounded anyway. He got freaked out because she played dead while a strange man made threats at him from under the covers, with apparently just his big bare feet sticking out. The little boy frantically woke their aging ailing overweight father, who had earlier taken two sleeping medications. He, shouting and sweating and praying, grabbed his gun and groggily confronted the intruder, who a whole long minute later was STILL naked and still in his daughter’s bed, and she was still playing dead. Soon Johran stopped pleading with her to defend him, and started getting angry at her and her father, the little boy having been ordered to lock himself in his bedroom and was also screaming and crying. Despite repeated warnings from the father, Johran started getting physical with the girl to rouse her, and then she played like she was shocked to find a man in her bed, scooted away from him, and denied knowing him. When Johran made the further mistake of trying to play cool and reaching for his pants, which could have contained a gun or knife, despite the father’s repeated orders to put his hands up, the girl’s father reasonably shot him.

    Johran’s father had tried to give him some version of some kind of preventative advice, “every day”. But his mother apparently did not, in order to be “realistic”.
    For him to be in someone else’s house at 2:30 in the morning is shocking to us,” Curley said. He said he warned his son often to be wary. “Every day one of us would tell him, ‘Don’t go by no little girl’s house if her parents don’t know you,’ ” Curley said.
    The couple said they’ve tried to teach their children to be cautious about the world but tried to be realistic about raising a teenager. “I was a teenager once too,” McCormick said. “And I know what teen­agers do.”

  52. @Badpainter

    Women in their 30s can be a lot of fun. But they’re very much ruled by that ancient female urge to nest. Whether they spent their 20s touring with bands or being serial monogamists, when they hit the 30s their chief focus will be to obtain a close “intimate” (a favorite (meaningless) word of the female relationship industry) relationship and to build a home or nest. She’ll say she’s “matured,” that’s she’s “outgrown” the party scene, but that’s her biology speaking. Her provisioning instincts will prioritized provider abilities over physical attractiveness and raw bad boy vibes. An HB9 in college wouldn’t touch a beta, even a wealthy beta. But in her 30s, even a short overweight beta who dresses nicely, has a steady income, and brings home a fat check stands a chance with her at a traditional relationship and marriage. However, after she spits out her womb lizards and hits 40, she will come to despise him, she will not know why she despises him, and she will blame him for the way she feels. I feel horrible for that poor bastard and what she’s about to put him through.

    To game women in their 30s you almost have to be dishonest and hint at (or at least not deny) your availability for monogamy with her. Even if things are purely sexual, provisioning and nesting are not far beneath her conscious surface.

    Be careful with the single moms. They too can be fun. But they will soon try to bring you into the fold of their children and nest. You’re on a 6 month time clock.

  53. Note that all of this is predicated on a variety of external existing resources. There is a whole lot of support for young women that is not visible to them, and that support is a product of a tremendous excess of resources at the society-wide level as well as the family level.

    The Sex in the City girls, and the Girls of Lena Doughgirl, are a luxury, not a necessity.

  54. @Bachelorocles

    I hear ya. I’m 43. My preferred range in 30-35. Usually end up with 35-38. You left out that many of these ticking fertility bombs have also seemingly had their virginity grow back. They’re willing suck me dry in every way but the one I want.

    Really just kidding about the single moms. I’ve been out with only two, and both failed my test. I asked if they wanted more children. Nope they didn’t, the fact they already had one or two was supposed to satisfy my desire to have kids. It doesn’t. Those were brief and uncomfortable dates.


    No I haven’t tried 20s. Not since I was in my mid 30s and the environment was completely different (second trip through higher education). Still got some work to do, like getting on the right side of 215. I’m also the idiot that either has never received an IOI, or never recognized one in real time which is a game problem usually solved by White Russians to point I don’t care. I need a new remedy for that, and I need to learn Spanish to navigate the local market. Like I said work to do.

    Right now if I make eye contact with a 20something all I get is a response that looks like wide eyed fear. Speak to one and I get quiet almost mumbling, and furtive glances that strike me as more fear. The only time this doesn’t happen if she’s there to take my order.

  55. bla bla bla – way too much navel gazing…. – if you have time for this much mental masturbation…… obviously mrs. tomassi is not putting much out lately…. be careful, if you take enough red pills you’ll eventually turn blue….

  56. Rollo, I started reading the Sosauve forum after you mentioned it on your site and quoted a commenter. I have slowly noticed marriage coucillors are posting there and other commenters who subscribe to your ‘plate’ theory have been banned.

    Is it just me or is the sphere slowly being co-opted, obviously the mainstream is aware of your work and most obviously don’t like it.

    First it was Roissy being outed, Aunt giggle’s bait and switch, Minter, your obvious trolls, fake PUA marketers, the MGTOW forum blow up and now Sosauve being co-opted by ‘relationship’ experts.

    Am I being paranoid or is this a trend?

  57. Hey, Rollo, this looks like a great series. Hopefully you’ll address the phenomenon of “frivorce” in your series.

    Just as an observation to your post, I had read an author who claimed that 1) women usually take a long time to realize and/or accept that the SMV is declining; 2) some women are not likely to get humbler as their SMV declines, but instead they get more demanding and resented towards men in general and her mate; and 3) they often expect many compensations of men they deem “inferior”, such as shopping, travels, etc. to continue giving them a modicum of sex in LTR. His thesis is that a man can measure a woman’s love and attraction to him by the rate which she’s willing to “put out” to him and/or her motivations to do it (mutual affection or “payment” for compensations, tool of manipulation, etc.). It looks like pretty obvious, but it’s something that men have been led to think that she’s always sort of doing him a favor in bed. Perhaps some women either consciously or not think that way, as part of their feminist conditioning?

    I look forward to the continuation posts in the same hope that they become “preventative medicine for young men’s feminized conditioning”. I mean, understanding women’s motivations can be beneficial to everybody, and to they themselves as well.

  58. I am enjoying this series too. It helps me understand better women’s motivations and the “roadmap” to relationships for me as a man. Thanks.

  59. I find it odd that Epimanes advertises his paid affiliation with Marriage Builders and in some posts proposes infidelity can be ‘worked out’ while PlayHer Man (admittedly a bit rough around the edges but very consistent with plate spinning) gets the ban hammer.

  60. @Rollo

    Actually I find that the fewer comments I get on an article the more solid the post was.

    At least until a side-point comes up in comments that a woman/feminist-lurker wants to comment on, then all bets are off.

    The break phase is very important, and I agree with where you put it, end of HS, end of living with parents. Putting the break phase at the end of college is not the same because there’s no sudden increase in sexual options, in fact there is a decrease in them. Almost all women in the developed world are literally impossible to commit to anything between 18-20 and not just because they’ve got some naive ideas in their head, but because they literally just walked into the candy store, and they’re not about to leave with the first now-and-later they find.

    I had a conversation with a 30-35 year old girl this past weekend. She’s been dating a salsa/bachata club/event promoter for a few years now, a good friend of mine in fact. She studied to become, and is a neonatal care nurse. We actually started off talking about a particular guy we’re all acquainted with who has some f-ed up blue pill ideas in his head, and can’t figure out that his behavior is the problem. Because of things I had said during that conversation, she got intrigued. We eventually moved on to women’s dualistic strategy and I tried to explain this concept to her.

    She nearly immediately and thoroughly disagreed with me, and twisted just about everything I said to say that I said “women should just keep house,” when in fact all I was saying was that women are attracted to alpha, but *need* beta provisioning and the two aspects are rare in a single man. She couldn’t accept that any internal conflict exists, and dismissed my thoughts because the “most important thing to her,” is, “making sure (she) can take care of (her)self and any babies (she has).” I then mentioned how horrible single motherhood is on any child, and she thoroughly agreed with me. But she couldn’t admit that provisioning from someone else for motherhood was at all important.

    I actually wish I had read this post before I had that conversation, it would have gone a lot different.

  61. @Badpainter, the serial killer vibe isn’t workng for you? Try wide-open body language, spraddle legs, combined with a big smirk, and twinkle if you can. Evidently your direct gaze is unnerving; do the flick away instead, like you can’t bear to glance at her for more than a second without bursting, like you need to laugh or to tell her something but don’t know how. As soon as you draw her in at all, immediately escalate to some degree of intimacy/isolation, a shared secret or at minimum some furtiveness on your part, some kind of “I shouldn’t be doing this with you.” It works. Every. Single. Time.

    Presumably you could add props, like a torn $20 bill with a red code you accidentally drop and tell her to forget she saw, but that’s not necessary. The co-conspiracy does seem necessary, though. I think it probably doesn’t matter what you conspire, as long as you conspire something together with you leading. If you kinda sorta know her and you both kinda sorta know someone else, the perfect first-time conspiracy is you needing her help to do a nice surprise (or a nice practical joke) for the other person, which also serves as a compliance test.

    Spanish is a better language than English. “Hola” is a fine opener for a 20-something, Spanish-speaking or not. For a noisy bar pickup, with or without White Russians, you could write the four letters neatly on your knuckles, with her watching. Make her sit and watch for a minute. “I’ve got a message for you!” to show her you’re That Kind Of Guy. Just remember she’ll be reading your fist left to right from her point of view. I prefer Fisher Scientific brand markers, especially compared to Sharpies, although I mostly write on beakers and vials. If you can wax enthusiastic about the brand comparisons, she may let you draw on her, like a shamrock for St. Patrick’s. Describe your self as “listo”, and her as “bastante”. You could unbutton your outer shirt and write L I S T O on your undershirt, again remembering to do it right side up from her point of view. As a plus, if you slur “Eres bastante …” in a low voice to her, she may think you said something else suggestive.

    I think I probably was a Natural in some other life.

  62. Re: dynamical SMV chart. Given the changing socio-economic demographics, including sexual demographics, but especially single parenthood and employment issues, do you think there will be some shifting of the presumably non-static peaks? Age 23 is accurate enough for most low-N women, but for high-N age 23 is already well past peak (think Lindsay Lohan). And for the majority of men i.e. undesired betas with therefore low N, 38 is probably accurate because of the MMV boost, but I wonder if there may be some moveout of the peak rather rapidly because of the college gender ratio of the previous generation.

  63. Jsr,

    That’s the question! The ambiguity in preferences in this dymanic is the root question.

  64. Heartiste and I disagree only in principle.

    My assertion is that teenage girls (and young women) put their highest attraction priority on the physical. I understand and agree with CH that it’s important not to put oneself out of contention, in fact it’s even an Iron Rule:

    However I’ve always felt that CH runs into a chicken-or-the-egg dilemma with regards to confidence. Roissy would argue that it’s exclusively confidence alone that generates attraction, but I’d argue that it’s innate physical cues that generate arousal.

    The Tomassi Model: When a guy goes from pudgy to ripped women affirm his attractiveness by their interest and arousal, this generates more sexual options for him which in turn is the source of his confidence, which in turn generates more attraction and thus more options, and more confidence.

    The Roissy Model: Confidence is its own attraction and the manifestations of confidence (even irrational self-confidence) can be mimicked to the degree that women respond to it alone. A guy going from flabby to ripped IS the source of his confidence irrespective of female affirmations or innate physical arousal cues and it’s this isolated confidence that is women’s primary attractor. Flabby or ripped matters less than bullet proof confidence.

    I’m far more inclined to see the physical prompts as a source of genuine confidence, but even if I didn’t, guys who most closely match girl’s physical idealization still, initially, turn them on physically without a girl ever having to confirm his true sense of confidence.

    In other words, a good body IS a visual cue of implied confidence.

    God bless Heartiste, but I’m not sure he’s raising a 15 y.o. daughter, and I’d wonder how many guys from the SoSuave high school forum would corroborate his memories of high school.

  65. Re: irrational self-confidence. I had it. Bill Gates had it. Steve Urkel had it. It doesn’t help nerds, not one bit.

    Perhaps, since it’s totally outside my experience, irrational self-confidence could help some non-nerds. But probably not many. If anything, irrational confidence makes creepy guys even creepier. Far better to work hardest on becoming more physically attractive in order to eliminate the nerd and creep factors.

  66. Under the Brady rules I would think irrationtional self confidence only applies if one is handsome and attractive. Otherwise one is simply arrogant, and that’s not attractive.

    I’m starting to believe jf12 is on to something, that reducing it all to physical attraction might be the correct macro model. Everything else, game, dominance, confidence, etc. is just an appeal to a woman’s desire to escape agency, and responsibility. Thus making attraction a hard fought subtextual negotiation.

  67. The echo of the Brady rulez reverberates for undesired men.
    1. Work on your physical attractiveness. Work, work, work. Spend a LOT more time, money, and effort strictly on being better looking for the sake of being better looking, than you would have thought would yield greater returns based on your prior woeful lack of success. Save up for and seriously consider a little facial work, seriously: by far the most bangs for the bucks. By. Far. If not now, when? (I still haven’t convinced myself to bother with surgery, because of my advancing age and marital status.)
    2. Since you do not have prior experience on what you are like when you are attractive, you will have to practice feeling attractive in order to correctly feel attractive when you are in fact attractive.
    3. It’s not putting the cart before the horse to irrationally act like you are already attractive, since you will be shortly and maybe you are already. So, don’t still act like you are still unattractive.

  68. so you are claiming that Roissy is incorrect when he says that plain/ugly guys that are flabby were getting the most beautiful girls because of their confidence?

  69. Did you read either of the links I posted yesterday?

    I’m not saying Roissy is incorrect in that an extreme sense of self-confidence can definitely be a source of attraction for a girl, but in and of itself confidence is not a source of arousal for a girl.

    Read this:

    Roissy would argue that the guys Adam Carolla describes as here “just guys” lacked confidence with women and therefore became sexless (or undersexed) losers. I would argue that the guys with ‘A Look’ trigger arousal /attraction cues that imply confidence.

    Now, read the part about Jake in this link:

    Jake was a model-tier good looking guy who had top shelf ass coming to him to fuck him, but no girl would invest in him because of his lack of confidence and Beta mindset.

    There’s a lot misconception about the principle of confidence; for a lot of guys it’s akin to a JBY dismissal. If you can’t get laid it’s because you lack an irrational sense of self-confidence, never mind that you’re 60 lbs. overweight, with acne and bad breath, that shouldn’t matter.

    It’s always boggled my mind that getting into better shape is one of the areas a man has the most direct control over in his life, yet there’s such resistance and aversion to putting the hard effort that guys would rather convince themselves that women “aren’t as visual as men” or “women don’t care about a few extra pounds.” That’s bullshit hope that fat men tell themselves.

    I’m not saying Game isn’t the most important aspect, but women are very visual creatures when it comes to Alpha Fucks: it’s when their respective SMV declines and their priority switches to Beta Bucks that “women don’t mind a few extra pounds”.

    1. @ Rollo – Bingo – “it’s when their respective SMV declines and their priority switches to Beta Bucks that “women don’t mind a few extra pounds””. There is no faking attraction, or buying it either…

  70. Just leaving this comment here to say Rollo, you are a god-damned hero among men.
    If you believe in a God, then God Bless You. if you’re an atheist, then all love and happiness be upon you. Either way, you’re a Big Star in the Red Pill/Dark Enlightenment constellation, you and Heartiste and Roosh and Dalrock–y’all are frickin’ LODESTARS.

  71. Rollo, if I could offer a means to bridge the gap between you and Roissy.

    You claim “it’s innate physical cues that generate arousal” while Roissy claims “it’s exclusively confidence alone that generates attraction.”

    There seems to be a scientific basis to believe women receive far less sexual stimulation by way of visual cues. Men are much more aroused by visual sexual stimulation. Men naturally prioritize beauty and the body. From an evolutionary perspective, there was no reason for a man to choose a high status beautiful woman over a low status woman of equal beauty. For women, on the other hand, sex was risky (pregnancy) and women much more invested in the sexual act and thus evolved a sexual selection mechanism that de-emphasized the body and beauty. And while the female sexual selection mechanism evolved to prioritize status and de-emphasize the body, men became juggernauts at judging fertile female bodies.

    So when you say “a [man’s] good body IS a visual cue of implied confidence” you’re essentially saying both you and Roissy are right. Roissy is right in claiming confidence turns women on. You’re right in saying a good body turns women on. But it would seem a good male body, although providing women the same sexual stimulus men receive (but to a lesser extent), also signals confidence which in turn signals status. Whereas men receive strong sexual arousal from visual ques that signal fertility (firm breasts, clear skin, shiny hair, 70% waist to hip ratio, symmetrical features) women, on the other hand, prioritize visual cues that are essentially proxies for status and not necessarily for fertility (height, wide shoulders, muscular build, large dominant jaw line, large hands, etc).

    I’m not saying women do not receive tingles from a good male body. We all know they do. But it’s no where near the sexual stimulation men receive (compare how men behave in the presence of female strippers in a strip club and how women behave with male strippers). And ultimately the issue is made highly complex in that the visual cues that cause sexual arousal in women are proxies for high status – wide shoulders, dominant jaw, etc.

  72. I would say there are physical cues for confidence that are not all necessarily associated with a ripped body. So in a sense, I agree with Rollo that women’s attraction is sourced/triggered by the physical perception particularly when young, but in a sense I would also agree with others. Female triggers are a mix of appearance (style, passive success triggers), physical stature, healthy body shape, and posture/body language. Since confidence begets better body language and posture on it’s own, you’ll attract women more if you simply stand up straight, keep your shoulders back, and walk with a f-ing purpose while making eye contact. But getting yourself healthy/ripped does this too, and doubly affects your confidence because it boosts T and frankly just makes you a man. Unfortunately nothing can make you taller, and not everyone can be rich, so there’s room for raw confidence to make up for something.

    And no, Rollo, I hadn’t got to your links yet, your domain is still blocked at work for being “pornography”

  73. Rollo I’d also like to say thank you.
    your blog is a big help. and thanks for making your book affordable

  74. Dr. John Mew – Orthotropics. Dr. Brian Palmer on the importance of breastfeeding for proper facial development. Google some images of “orthotropics” and you’ll get the idea pretty quickly. An older work is “Shut Your Mouth and Save Your Life” by George Caitlin, but he makes some very interesting observations in that short book too that complement Mew and Palmer’s work.

    Ever hear about the attractiveness of that prominent jawline? You face is meant to develop in a specific way through proper oral posture. It reminds me of the studies of women that showed they preferred more masculine looking men during the peak of their fertility cycle and more feminine looking men during the low point.

    But make no mistake — as I said, our faces are meant to develop in a certain way. A lack of awareness of this is needlessly causing kids to grow up with unattractive faces, which is completely unnecessary and entirely preventable with early intervention and the most basic education about the topic.

    My face changed for the worse after I had my 4 wisdom teeth removed. My eyes are closer together now, my chin is narrower, and my smile isn’t as full or wide. I looked more masculine before.

    Over the past couple years of dilligently practicing proper oral posture, I’ve noticed some slight changes for the better. They do have procedures for adults that involve devices designed to slowly bring the maxilla forward, but I’m trying to see how much I can do on my own.

    I have read stories of guys getting these devices made and noticing a lot more attention from women after it brought their maxilla forward and their facial structure changed. I don’t know if I’ll ever do this but as far as I’ve read, it’s non-invasive and just involves a custom-made retainer type device that you wear at night, and it works over the course of months.

    If kids were taught proper oral posture from a young age, the need for braces and wisdom tooth removal could be eliminated by creating enough room in the mouth to support the wisdom teeth without crowding or impactions.

    And that leads to much more attractive faces as well as more open airways and better health. Attractive faces are attractive because they signify vibrant health.

    Lips comfortably closed, tongue against the palate with the tip just behind or lightly touching the front teeth, and when swallowing, there should be ZERO tongue thrust – the tongue should flatten against the palate and exert pressure outwards, which encourages the formation of a “U” shape instead of a narrow “V” shape in the palate).

    Anyway, I know that’s all on a tangent. I’m not affiliated with anyone or anything having to do with any of this, by the way, just researched it on my own and it came to mind as I was reading the comments on this post.

    Attractiveness matters, but I think a lot of us are getting screwed over by a lack of public education on matters that we have more control over than we think. Look at those orthotropics pictures. This is completely non-invasive stuff and they got changes like that. These are some kids you’d think would be doomed to grow up butt ugly that ended up developing well above average attractive faces, and all they did was use proper oral posture and (I think) a retainer-like device designed to bring the maxilla forward/encourage outward instead of recessive growth of the face.

    Most of the intervention seems to be done on children, and is most effective because their faces haven’t developed fully yet and are much more malleable. I haven’t lost hope for adults though and I do think that over the past couple years, proper oral posture and swallowing seem to have changed my face for the better.

  75. @Softek, great information.
    Re: overconfidence. The key is the abundance mentality, not overconfidence. It is *partial* truth that as a man thinketh in his heart, so is her (Proverbs 23:7), but *more* of the truth is that a man is not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think (Romans 12:3). Indeed we have warnings not to take our own thoughts too seriously.
    1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
    1 Cor 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

  76. @rollo re: When or if you make a “Rational Male” Vol. 2, this post MUST be in that book. / Am I that transparent?

    Thank goodness. Sign me up for a preorder copy for my son.

  77. Softek:

    Have you read Whole Health Source (Stephan Guyenet) series on the Diseases of Civilization and malocclusion.

    Nutritional deficiencies shape the face and jaw for the worse whereas hunter gatherers tend to have very good occlusion and jaw posture/alignment. No teeth need to be pulled, cavities are rare, etc.

    This relates heavily back to the lies the public is told on nutrition, likely from big pharma as well as big agriculture. But I’m starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist.

  78. @ Deep Strength:

    I haven’t read Stephan Guyenet’s series, but I’ve read some of his other work and I’m also familiar with the Weston Price Foundation.

    Ray Peat is my favorite researcher. All of his articles are available for free on his website. Danny Roddy has written a lot about Peat and for a brief primer on understanding the premise of Peat’s work, I’d recommend reading some stuff on Roddy’s blog. Matt Stone, the creator of180 Degree Health has also been one of my major influences and I’m a huge fan of his work.

    I don’t want to hijack this into a nutrition discussion, but especially because of my life experiences (years in and out of mental health programs, on different medications, basically living in a psychological hell of major depression, suicidal thoughts, self-mutilation and mood swings…and my life doing a gradual 180 as I began experimenting with diet and lifestyle changes), I am absolutely convinced that nutrition is one of the most fundamentally essential sciences and also one of the most neglected.

    As Peat said in “Energy, structure, and carbon dioxide: A realistic view of the organism”:

    “What could be more important to understand than biological energy? Thought, growth, movement, every philosophical and practical issue involves the nature of biological energy.”

    That being said, bringing it back to this blog and the topics here: being well-nourished, well-rested and physically active is going to help you in every area of your life, which includes game.

    Your body requires an abundance of food in order to build a lot of muscle. Isn’t that funny? By getting ripped you are signifying that you *do* have abundance. Even guys like me who never even see one iota of pussy and have trouble feeling abundant with that can develop a safe and steady strength training routine, eat plenty of food to recover, work on our posture and build a body and personality that broadcasts abundance.

  79. Game is sales. The product itself has a value (call this looks) but the quality of the salesmanship can increase the perceived value at the time of potential purchase. A man who is fat/pudgy who is the funniest guy in the room will walk away with pussy. We *do* see good looking men get laid but we also hear about the fat frat bro who bangs a sorority slut.

    I also disagree that men value looks more than women. Men value qualities in women less generally than what women value in men. A man values a woman’s character, personality, and intelligence to small degrees and her looks to a high degree. But who is to say that women don’t have hundreds of value triggers and that just because they place value on other things to huge degrees they don’t *also* place a huge value on looks that even exceed men’s. Basically, the pool of points needed for a woman to sleep with a man is far larger than that same man’s pool of points to sleep with her.

    TRP as preventative medicine will have the greatest benefits. A boy at 12 can have the world of dating laid out in full in front of him. He can start building value and the attitude he needs to not get priced out of the market. He won’t waste time pining away or spending money on females. He also will not be lazy, understanding that every second not used effectively is the death of his lineage and honour as a man.

    1. @ DBM – Great point, and I have a refinement. Selling a product or service is a game and winning a women’s affection for a moment or a lifetime is a game. Using solid strategy and tactics and technique in both yields great results. However, sales and “game” are very different too. I sell large ticket IT products and services to mostly big corporations and while I see huge overlap in terms of what is being taught in the game/PUA community and sales in some respects, I think there are big differences too.

      In B2B sales (retail sales are different because they are more emotional and spontaneous) the buyer’s point of view can be strongly affected by reason and argument. Personal aspects of the players are much less important than most people think. Yes, as a bit of a natural alpha, I can own a room and stand up to any questioning. Selling/speaking one on one or to a large group can be seen essentially as maintaining frame, and being good at this really helps sales. But personality and attractiveness rapidly lose their advantage. While my charisma and sharp suit will make a good first impression, that just gives me access, not a sale. A B2B sales campaign is better seen as a running argument for your product/company/pov/framing. It’s completely different than the elements of attraction I get from women and how I advance my cause with women. I’ve actually done multi-million dollar deals with people who hated me personally. I never got laid that way. In fact, in B2B sales, I’ve run rings around “relationship guys” who think being friends is the way to win. Nah, in fact there is real research in my business that shows “relationship sales reps” finish dead last in performance. Being provocative and dynamic is what wins deals, and often that requires creating conflict and dissent. Getting laid while arguing is next to impossible.

      The less I pay attention to a woman’s “arguments” (shit tests, chit chat, requests, etc.) the more they want me. The more self absorbed I am, the higher my value. The more mysterious I am, the more their imagination can run wild. When selling, the opposite is true. The more service oriented I am, the more open, the more informative I am, the better I do. I know I’m winning a big deal at a subtle level just by how much time the client is spending with me.

      A huge similarity between sales and game is observing behavior coherently. I learned long ago that at a certain point a client starts buying and I stop selling. You can’t force interest and buying behaviors. They are either there or they are not. I engage in the provocative behaviors that I think will elicit interest and then I look for prospective clients and women who engage in buying behaviors with me. It is very similar in the sense that both women and buyers will start investing in you (a client will buy dinner or really help you advance your sale or provide “inside info” etc). Most sales people – and men – are too involved with their own fears and needs to see beyond their own noses. The plain truth is that client’s and women usually telegraph very clearly where they are at, if we would just bother noticing.

      Plate spinning is another huge parallel. Best way to negotiate any deal with clients without fear is to have an abundance mentality. Have many prospects and be willing to lose any of them if that’s the best use of your time. Never beg, never push and never “push a string”. Always have an alternative and always be willing to move on. My best days selling and being a pussyhound came when I was already crushing it. I once fucked 3 girls in the same day during that period of time in my life (funny how making half a million bucks a year makes H8 very available) and the third was just on a whim to see if I could pull it off. I didn’t give a fuck. I lost one of the girls that day, too bad. Next…

      Some people see that as cold. Me? What’s the alternative? I get to miss and pine for “the one” who moved on because of her biology and a society spinning off of its axis? Nah, I don’t think so. I already played that number. I knew for a long time that women were inherently a bad deal beyond a certain point, and did my best to behave accordingly, but still had too much beta in my veins. Yikes. Okay, I’m going on, I’ll stop now – thanks so much for spawning yet another great dialog, Rollo!

  80. @ Glenn

    Good breakdown of B2B sales. Part of what you’re describing is the inevitable clashing of civilized alpha males that occurs in the highest echelons of Business, Politics, and Academia. Two opposing men or groups of men of high status who are unable to kill each other due to cultural retribution.

    My POV was D2D sales. This was incredibly hard as the typical customer viewed you with scorn or suspicion. Being able to “turn” a customer from asshole to interested was the elite tier skill that separated the men from the boys. There was very little emphasis on describing the quality of the product itself. It was assumed that nearly everybody needed it and it was just a question of the salesman being likable and entertaining.

    D2D sales is a black hole of dreams so I would not recommend it to anybody as a career path. However, a young 16-20 year old who has free time over the summer should consider soldiering up for it. You get to see fear, hate, and mistrust upfront and directed towards you at a daily basis and must be able to convert that into something positive. It was an eye-opening experience into social dynamics.

  81. fwiw medical sales reps, i.e. pill salespersons, are the worst salesmen of all. Almost entirely very young women, with a few young gay men, they are chosen for their looks on the theory that doctors will be susceptible to good looks. If they bother to try to sell they will use the canned sales routines they were forced to memorize their first week of sales “internship”, but otherwise they just show up with their pamphlets and samples, then chew gum and make snobby faces while checking their phones, until someone shows up, then they briefly glance up and inquire “So you want some, ok?”

  82. @impudent imp (tyrion) I don’t normally do the tedious word parsing posts, and in this case I’m sure greater red pillers than I will comment at length on the ideas in your post, so I’ll just stick with one sentence out of your missive.

    “A prototypical PUA is a male who seeks to be successful at ‘seducing’ women.” – Tell me, great seer of diminution, what man is not seeking to be successful at seducing women? In reality, if one is hetero? Also, why the use of single ‘scare quotes’ around the word seducing, as though that is a strange idea or something? The frequency and kind of appetites men have vary extremely, but we are all trying to fuck some woman at some point of our lives and the interaction frames itself as a bit of a contest if one is honest about it. I’m just noticing the reality I’m in and the patterns of behavior which attend it and then optimizing my behavior accordingly.

    Can’t wait to read the rest of the responses.

  83. If tyrion isn’t a woman he plays one very well.

    My broadest response to his analysis is: misunderstanding your opponents’ position doesn’t count as anything except strawman.

  84. Re: dominance study. The research proves merely that men know what women like, and women lie. The number of partners the men had was TOTALLY predicted by the variable the researches called girth. “Ee consequently standardized and summed biceps, chest, and shoulder circumference,and weight to produce the composite variable “girth”.”

    Women often say in studies, and often like to pretend, that they find bigger guys “gross”, but the fact is if a man is more sexually attractive that means more women choose him for sex. Period.

  85. Yes, girth is totally what men looked at, correctly, to rate dominance. Nothing else actually mattered. And girth mattered even more to actual attractiveness i.e. sexual success, as opposed to rated prettiness of face. Masculinity of voice mattered not at all (I am a prime example).

  86. @fj12,
    “The number of partners the men has was TOTALLY predicted by … biceps, chest, and shoulder circumference”
    Alpha fucks demystified.

    Now to demystify what exactly is “beta bucks”. So one may embody both areas of the female dualistic sexual strategy.

  87. i got into red pill about a month ago and I’ve learnt lots but I have a few thoughts I hope you guys will help me with. It seems to me there’s an assumption of materialism/naturalism-nihilism at the base of the mansphere pyramid. Obviously I agree that humans are part physical but red pill seems to implicitly rule out the existence of any soul/spirit/consciousness without stating why. The ‘soul’ aspect of a person might perhaps be expanded, say through meditation, and thus the individual transcends hypergamy and other physical drives. Some say this is the only way our species will survive into the future. Any thoughts on this guys?

  88. I’m too impatient to wait for others’ opinions, so I will make up some. It seems tyrion fell into the error of believing that women had evolved to be good at picking out which men are sexier than other men, and that therefore undeserving men couldn’t and shouldn’t try to bypass the women’s pickers.

    That is a woman’s argument.

  89. Still believe the sky rocketing divorce rate is because we can no longer kill the bastards that try to seduce our wives. Hell a 150 years ago, a man fooling with your wife was considered almost as low as the man who stole your horse!

  90. @DeNihilist, I could easily have killed him, with this thumb, and then gone home and had me a nice hamburger without compunction. Instead I couldn’t eat for a couple of years.

  91. “… the sky rocketing divorce rate is because we can no longer kill the bastards that try to seduce our wives.”


    However, given a woman’s rather tenuous connection to concepts like, truth, honesty, honor, etc. I am rather glad this is against the law. Imagine the body count in today’s society and how many of those bodies would be created based on the false accusations of the woman. Far better to permit the man to beat/kill his wife for adultery. Aversion therapy works.

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