Not All Women Are(n’t) Like That

On many an occasion I’ve been confronted with what I’ve observed to be the most common retort / rebuttal / “oh no you di’ int!” response to anything I propose about the nature of women. Oh, what the hell I’ll just let female commenter LivingTree illustrate it for you. From my Shallow post:

RM, did you actually mean what you said, “The single most common shaming tactic that women use against men is “shallow””? And you are upset about that? Thank god for that! What I wouldn’t do to be in mens’ shoes if that is the case.

The list of shaming tactics men use against women is so incredibly hostile and hurtful that I can hardly even repeat them, and it embarrasses me you’re even complaining about being called shallow. What I wouldn’t do to be called shallow instead of an fat ugly angry bitch gold-digging selfish feminist whore whenever I speak my mind about something controversial.

You guys have no idea how good you have it, if being chastized for being shallow is the biggest of your problems.

I’ve illustrated examples of feminine solipsism in many a post, but to really understand it, you have to read the responsive comments of women when they are presented with an objective observation, critical of women in General, how they solipsistically interpret that “attack”, personally reinterpret it in their personal experience, and then re-offer their interpretation as a generalized (i.e. universal) truth. I’ll let LivingTree continue to spell this out a bit more succinctly for you:

Oh, and incidentally, as a woman, I make my selection of relationship companions not based on looks, or money, or ambition, or how much they want me.

All those things are nice, and sometimes its enough to get a first date, but I my decision to continue dating someone based on one factor alone: does he have class?

Sadly, this means I don’t find I date much. They get weeded out really quickly. I suggest you guys do the same. There really isn’t much out there to choose from, among men or women I’m afraid, but if we are all making our mating decisions based on…looks, or money, or ambition, or how much they want us… well, then we are fostering bad character in each other.

Well, you get the picture. If you haven’t read Shallow yet, the real objective of that essay can be found in the first paragraph:

[ ]terms like “shallow” and “superficial” are contextually defined from a feminine perspective and, through shaming, serve to enforce feminine primacy.

Of course, nowhere in this article do I personalize my take on this particular shame; I’m only outlining a process and observing a feminine social convention. Obviously I don’t have to defend the observation, but LivingTree’s response highlights the typical female reaction to, an ego-invested, gender-specific offense. Process the objective in a personalized context, reinterpret the intent of that objectivity (imply bias), defend the feminine, defend the ego and then re-generalize the corrected universal interpretation in as feminine-positive a way as possible.

Oh, and if you can add a bit of masculine shame into that re-generalization (for daring to have been critically objective about the feminine in the first place), all the better.

NAWALT®

Anyone who’s spent more than a month reading comment threads on manosphere blogs understand the reason NAWALT has become a trope worthy of its own acronym. “Not all women are like that,..” is the most common, default, go-to response for feminine personal offenses. You’ll have to forgive the $10 words I used in the previous paragraph, but they were necessary to describe a process that leads to NAWALT. Obviously women’s minds (or humans in general) don’t run through a mental algorithm step by step like this until they repurpose objectivity into a subjective universal truth they find more palatable. They don’t need to when the work is already done for them with the NAWALT response.

Just as with other feminine social convention like JBY (“Just be yourself”) or the classic LJBF (“Let’s just be friends“), NAWALT is a mental process that’s already been socialized by the feminine imperative for ease-of-use for women. Even when women are forced by incontrovertible evidence to concede an objective observation that is damaging to the feminine, NAWALT is useful.

It’s usually at this point of concession that the “ooh, ooh, men do it too!” reaction is enacted. If at some point during the process of personal reinterpretation a woman has the spark of real introspection, or is forced to acknowledge a not-so-flattering aspect of female nature men make in the objective, the next natural default is to compare that aspect to another male aspect – much as LivingTree attempts in her Shallow responses.

The rationale is one of “well, we women are bad, but you men are worse”, and simply sidesteps the original, objective point being made. Distracting the issue is  just Bad Debate 101, but it’s interesting to see the natural fluidity (sans a real awareness of debate) with which feminized minds will resort to it. The issue isn’t the issue, the issue is that men do something similar so the offensive point is invalidated. Needless to say this does nothing to address the original point.

Not All Women Aren’t Like That

The usefulness of NAWALT really extends beyond just a defensive measure though. NAWALT is used and personalized in the hopes that women will generate sympathetic opinions of themselves (through personal anecdotes), and by extension women on whole, in defense of feminine perspectives. However, not all women are like that,..until all women are like that.

If I were to debate the uniquely feminine merits of feminine social conventions that cast women in a positive light (i.e. one that compliments the feminine imperative) then, all women are like that, and what’s better is that no man is ever like that. For example, if I were to bolster the myth of the feminine mystique on a forum or blog praising the aspects of women you would never read “yeah, but not all women are like that” nor would you read “yeah, but men do this too.” If I find something laudable about the feminine then no woman has an objective problem with “all women are like that” and there will never be a sympathetic counter-element that finds a corollary with anything men do. In other words, NAWALT (until they are), but men are always like that.


69 responses to “Not All Women Are(n’t) Like That

  • David

    This perfectly describes my ex-wife.

  • redpillsetmefree

    So I think that part of growing up via the Manosphere means we have to accept some irrefutable conclusions:

    1) Men are the leaders. But it’s a thankless job if you want thanks from women.

    2) Give up your boyish hope that a woman will love you like you want her to. As Rollo has thoroughly explained, it’s not going to happen because it’s not possible.

    3) Decide how much of your heart, time, and cash you want to invest in women, because there’s only so much return you’re going to get.

    4) Even when a woman thinks she’s your intellectual equal, she’s not even close. Women are incapable of accurate self-assessment.

    5) Your children are the best investment of your love, not a woman.

  • Andrews

    Men – love of truth.
    (Although a lot of men have become very feminized by now.)

    Women – truth of love.
    Either she loves you or you and your arguments are nothing to her.

  • A Man in Asia

    Women here in Japan don’t seem to make those NAWALT arguments as much, at least not when I’m talking to them. Talking with a white girl, if I were to say something like, “Girls like guys with muscles,” I’d get some anecdote about a friend who likes chubby dudes. A Japanese girl would be more likely to say, “hmmm, maybe!” Perhaps they’re just agreeing with me to be civil, but I wonder how much the NAWALT trope is a product of being raised to think that you are a highly independent, super special snowflake vs. one of many interdependent people.

    An interesting article on the topic:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/health/04iht-6sncult.1.10695876.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  • Vi Nay

    I have a lot of discussions with women about (to mention just a few):

    1) Why women date jerks and reject nice guys.
    2) Women saying they are not attracted to high status yet end up with these men.
    3) Women saying they would be happy to be with a more physically attractive man than their own beauty grade in relativity.
    4) Women preferring attached men over single men if all things equal.

    Each and every time they either:
    1) Deny women take on the perceived weak side of these choices.
    2) Claim only insecure women deliver these actions.

    Occasional ones will say there is an element to this truth of red pill, but only to be used in low cases. For example, I spoke to a Polish girl only last week about this, and her take was that a man should be a gentleman 6 days a week and he is allowed to be “rough” 1 day a week. My smirk was hidden.

    So basically their claim is a blanket one of only isolated – hence a tiny percentage of women – are like this. In other words, men can just be men in nearly all cases.

    Then you look at what you see in the real world. Something doesn’t add up with their side of things. How can women initiate 70% of divorces in a world where 80% of men are beta males trying to please them? You can’t try telling me these men – as most men are average by definition – are so desirable that the main share of them are playing away with other women. So are women making choices to suit their agendas only to end up unhappy?

    I still stand by the fact that only a small percentage (I estimate no more than 3%) of women, who are either very cute or hot, need any frequent male interaction strategy to counteract their ways. The lion’s share simply do not have the options to beat the stick. Men, being desperate, allow lower quality women to do this. But marriage changes this, as a man surrenders the great phrase to say “take it or leave it”.

  • Ana the troll Serene

    What is the number one thing, except physical appearance (um, shallow attractiveness), that men like in a woman as summed up in this statement: “how she makes *me* feel.” What is the number one thing, except physical appearance (um, shallow attractiveness), that inspires a man to propose to a woman as summed up in this statement: “she’s a nice person [to me.]”

  • Tin Man

    @RedPillSetMeFree…

    I like the list, pretty much sums it up – and is what I’ve been telling my sons for the past year.

    Of course, Rollo is providing a “woman’s perspective” — but there is also a Man’s perspective of defending that one special woman – that there is no way, she’s like that. My personal belief is only when a Man can apply the RP knowledge to the woman closest to him, and recognize it in them – it’s really only theory in his life. Once he can apply it to woman equally, regardless of his relationship with them – that’s where the true knowledge comes in. And of course being Men – we will love them even more.

    Along these lines, I had a discussion the other day with one of my best friends in the world – we’ve known each other for decades and have been through some interesting times together. She’s in no way “knowledgeable” about all this stuff, she could really care less – but I mentioned the very basic “Woman are the gatekeepers to sex, and Men are the gatekeepers to commitment” statement used within the MS. Her first reaction to hearing that was “you better explain that, cause that kinda pisses me off” — so them we spent the next 30 minutes or so discussion it. I don’t know if she really moved all the way to believing it – but she understood it, and realized that in “most” cases it was true.

    It’s been talked about before – here and within other spots with the MS – that once you start to become aware, it’s almost like sensory overload, and in many cases, all you want is to go back to being ignorant about the whole thing. Then, over time, you acclimate to it – oh, it still hurts, it still is sometimes unbelievable, but the truth is still better than living in a lie.

    Stay strong Brothers. Lead, teach, and learn.

  • earl

    How women argue:

    You present a point with facts, real life experience, and/or evidence.

    She targets your ego…and usually wins because we have feelings too. Not that she would care about them because women don’t have empathy…she needs a win and male attention to validate herself.

    Men need to disregard her insults or emotions and stay on point.

  • earl

    And it’s amazing the moral agency women present…when men are doing the same disgusting stuff they are doing.

  • Tin Man

    “Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned,”
    Act 3, Scene 8, Mourning Bride by William Congreve (1697)

  • Emma the Emo

    “…they are presented with an objective observation, critical of women in General, how they solipsistically interpret that “attack”, personally reinterpret it in their personal experience, and then re-offer their interpretation as a generalized (i.e. universal) truth.”

    When someone uses NAWALT in response to a generalization, are they really asking us to take their personal reality as the new generalization? Never thought of that. To me it always looked like they were not even thinking about the general truth, just how they themselves look to others. As long as you say “women are X”, it includes them specifically.

    “The rationale is one of “well, we women are bad, but you men are worse”, and simply sidesteps the original, objective point being made. Distracting the issue is just Bad Debate 101, but it’s interesting to see the natural fluidity (sans a real awareness of debate) with which feminized minds will resort to it. The issue isn’t the issue, the issue is that men do something similar so the offensive point is invalidated. Needless to say this does nothing to address the original point.”

    I think it’s ok to use this if the original poster’s goal was to prove men are better than women somewhere. If the goal was to prove men are much less shallow than women, it’s fine to point out men are “shallow” too, just in a different way. Personally I’ve concluded both men and women are shallow in their own ways, but can also be very forgiving in others.

  • BC

    @Ana: To answer your trolling question

    http://www.returnofkings.com/20097/5-ways-to-land-and-keep-a-quality-boyfriend

    Pro tip: The order of the points is kinda important. HTH

  • Not Carrie Bradshaw

    @Redpillsetmefree

    Some qualifications to the points you raised

    1) Men are the leaders. But it’s a thankless job if you want thanks from women.
    OK. As long as you take responsibility for your decisions, and if your decisions turn out bad, you will have to fix them yourself.

    2) Give up your boyish hope that a woman will love you like you want her to. As Rollo has thoroughly explained, it’s not going to happen because it’s not possible.

    The only time a woman will ever give up her life for a man is when that man shares half her genes = ie her son. Remember that “love” or whatever it is flows downwards – from strongest to weakest, from oldest to youngest. The directive of the whole species is the protection and nurturing of the young. Always. The only reason that women are protected, and the only reason alone, is that they are the last line of defence for the young.

    3) Decide how much of your heart, time, and cash you want to invest in women, because there’s only so much return you’re going to get.

    See 2) above

    4) Even when a woman thinks she’s your intellectual equal, she’s not even close. Women are incapable of accurate self-assessment.

    You’d be surprised how capable of self-assessment they are. They just won’t or can’t admit it to themselves, much less to others. Sometimes this is a strategy to duck responsibility. Because it is useful, it will be used – like the way kids throw tantrums is because they work – not because the kids can’t control themselves.

    5) Your children are the best investment of your love, not a woman.

    See 2) above.

  • The Latin Buddha

    On a related note, my sister and I were watching “Shark Tank” the other day. There was a woman pitching the Sharks an idea for a baby diaper contraption. The Sharks all opted out because, while it may have been a good product, the lady had made a lot of business mistakes and it would cost the Sharks a lot of time and money to teach her and fix the business.

    So they all said no to her idea. Then the lady starts ugly crying. I mean the kind of crying that you see on a 3-year-old’s face. The kind that you want to do whatever you can not to see it, not because it’s crying, but because it’s ugly crying. She started saying how hard she had worked and how many tears had been poured over her product. She talked about how she had worked for the last four years to get this product to where it was then (which was $100K wasted, money provided by her supportive AFC hubby).

    Finally, after much babbling by the crying lady, the woman Shark said that she’d come back in and do a business deal with the diaper’s lady. Mr. Wonderful said: “Why did you go back in? Because she was crying?” And the lady Shark said: “No… because she was passionate and I know she will work hard.”

    So I said to my sister: “Had that been a dude crying, much less ugly crying, they would have laughed at him and told him to leave. NO ONE would have come back in to do a business deal with him.”

    And she says: “You’re such a hater!” And tries to shame me for saying that. She’s my baby sister and I went on to explain to her the harsh reality of the feminine imperative. She wouldn’t have it.

    This is a perfect example of how something applies to women (enhanced by the feminine imperative) but the same wouldn’t apply to men under the same conditions.

  • earl

    Shame a woman for having emotions and using them as a weapon…you’ll be a monster to womankind.

    Because they all use the same tactic and other than working the sex drive…it’s the only thing they got.

  • The Latin Buddha

    I did go on to say that, as a man, I wouldn’t have wanted anyone to come back in and do a business deal with me because I was crying. If anything, I would have felt cheap, mad girlish and like I just got pity. If I’m going to do a business deal with a Shark, it’s because I’m selling a great product or service that stands on its own, because I’ve hustled with results to back it up and because of merits, not tears. Such a stark difference between men/women modus operandi.

  • Jeremy

    The female response of re-interpreting 3rd-person description of generalized human behavior as personalized and insulting is simply another manifestation of the herd mind. Any attack on the herd is re-interpreted as an attack on the individual. Women generally have significant ego invested in themselves as individuals, but there is always a large enough portion that is linked to the female herd that when a complaint is made about one woman, it is somehow an attack on each individual woman.

    I suspect this is why true justice systems originated with man. If men have an easier time separating individuals and their individual circumstances and decision-making processes it would make it easier to determine guilt or innocence for an individual.

    I would also guess that this goes back to women intrinsically understanding the value of the existence of a womb. In a herd, they do not simply cast out individual members for being fat, lazy, or unattractive. All members of the herd must be protected, simply for existing. This is a human-brain reinterpretation of an ancient predator-prey response. The only use for the weak and useless herd members is as fodder for the predators when they come looking for food. But to any single herd member, that’s still tremendously useful for protecting themselves. So a herd will defend herd members such as they are able, especially young herd members, regardless of how wrong they may be to do so.

    Also, men making serious inroads at analyzing female behavior could be seen as the predator watching his prey. By diving into and documenting the basic mental processes that create various reactions in women you are revealing the movement patterns of the herd. That makes them feel vulnerable and exposed, and it must be attacked because it hints that the herd itself is under attack. Much as a herd uses numbers and significant internal movement to visually confuse the predator as to the location of any individual member; women defend the indefensible behavior patterns of their fellow herd members to keep men from arriving at any conclusions as to why women behave as they do, to keep the individual man from being able to get an “attack” vector on any uterus holder.

    NAWALT is classic predator-prey herd-defense behavior re-interpreted by the human female mind as a means of protecting the value of the womb. Women are not wrong to defend the womb, but they are wrong to defend the indefensible behavior of their fellow women.

  • Stingray

    To me it always looked like they were not even thinking about the general truth, just how they themselves look to others.

    This is how I’ve always thought of it as well. Like it’s a form of competition. “Well I’m not like that so you should like me more”. Though I guess it depends on how the NAWALT in question is phrases.

  • Jeremy

    @Ana Serene

    What is the number one thing, except physical appearance (um, shallow attractiveness), that men like in a woman as summed up in this statement: “how she makes *me* feel.” What is the number one thing, except physical appearance (um, shallow attractiveness), that inspires a man to propose to a woman as summed up in this statement: “she’s a nice person [to me.]“

    Is that a question? If so, I can’t figure out specifically what’s being asked.

  • redpillsetmefree

    @Not Carrie Bradshaw

    OK. As long as you take responsibility for your decisions, and if your decisions turn out bad, you will have to fix them yourself.

    Which is something females never do, and is the basis of Feminism. So apply your advice to yourself first & we can have a conversation.

    The only time a woman will ever give up her life for a man is when that man shares half her genes = ie her son. Remember that “love” or whatever it is flows downwards – from strongest to weakest, from oldest to youngest. The directive of the whole species is the protection and nurturing of the young. Always. The only reason that women are protected, and the only reason alone, is that they are the last line of defence for the young.

    Doesn’t change the truth of what I said. Which was that men need to release their boyish fantasy of reciprocal love.

    You’d be surprised how capable of self-assessment they are. They just won’t or can’t admit it to themselves, much less to others. Sometimes this is a strategy to duck responsibility. Because it is useful, it will be used – like the way kids throw tantrums is because they work – not because the kids can’t control themselves.

    In other words, you have the maturity level of children.
    Children, however, once you invest in them will love you until the day you die. Not so with a woman. She will take everything you’ve worked for.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    What is the number one thing, except physical appearance (um, shallow attractiveness), that inspires a man to propose to a woman as summed up in this statement: “she’s a nice person [to me.]“

    Women like Ana are exactly why I encourage women to participate on RM comment threads – they often provide the best examples of proving my points, especially when they miss that point entirely.

    Ana still erroneously believes I was in someway butthurt that women call men ‘shallow’ or ‘superficial’ in that essay. My point was that ‘shallow’ is defined by feminine standards; women own the term, if it offends the feminine it is therefore shallow. I disagree that men should believe their primary physical/sexual interest in a woman should in anyway be considered ‘shallow’ or ‘superficial’.

    But Ana doesn’t get that (consciously anyway) as evidenced by her feminine hindbrain still clinging to feminine definition of “um, shallow attractiveness.” My objective observation asks why should the importance men place on attractiveness be considered ‘shallow’ by the feminine? Answer: to improve women’s overall chances to optimize their Hypergamy.

  • The Latin Buddha

    @Rollo

    Whoa. It happened exactly as you wrote…to a T. The only woman Shark sympathized with her because she was coming from the same “tribe”. I tracked down a clip but due to copyright… there’s only the beginnings of her hotmessedness.

    Warning: ugly crying ahead.

    Though if anyone is curious, it’s season 4 episode 8 of Shark Tank and it’s the very first pitch. The product was called cool wazoo or something along those lines.

  • Doh-San

    Of course, it goes w/o saying that it’s not necessary for *all* women to be “like that” in order for *most* — or even “many” — women to be “like that”.

    But the, you’re a sexiss anyway, right? :-)

  • Booch Paradise

    “Claim only insecure women deliver these actions.”
    In their defense, insecure women = women.

  • Tin Man

    As far as the whole crying thing goes….from personal experience, there are times when it is used as a deflection technique. There were times when my (x)wife and I would be discussing a particularly sensitive subject (like possibly her spending too much money or maybe getting a job) and she would begin crying – then telling me how she couldn’t do such and such or was so sorry for doing such and such – and me being the true American (beta) Husband, would in most cases (not all) comfort her and tell her I loved her and all the things I was programmed to say.

    Because I believed, she wasn’t like that, she believed in our marriage, in our partnership. She wasn’t just placating me, she was really, really sorry and things would change.

  • LostSailor

    The tl;dr version:

    Not All Women Are Like That is properly translated as I’m Not Like That (And How Could You Say Such Mean Things About Me Even If I Do Sometimes–Well A Lot Actually–Do What You Said, But I’m Not Really Like That).

  • Not Carrie Bradshaw

    @redpillsetmefree

    “…..Which is something females never do, and is the basis of Feminism. So apply your advice to yourself first & we can have a conversation.”

    Actually my statement about taking responsibility is gender neutral – it applies to both men AND women. Most of the time it is up to men to make women accountable (unfortunately), particularly when they are young.

    My dad always called me out on my bullshit and raised me to always account for my actions and decisions. At the time I hated him for it, but now appreciate what he has done for me. Later in life I was always held accountable by men – yes, men – male teachers, male professors, male colleagues, male fellow students, male bosses, male managers. Maybe because I always carried myself in a non girly, professional way which did not play up my feminity, charm and “helplessness” – thanks to my dad. Now, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    The message here is to hold others accountable (particularly women who have not always been held accountable), ignoring their girly wiles and charms.

    “….Doesn’t change the truth of what I said. Which was that men need to release their boyish fantasy of reciprocal love.”

    No it doesn’t. My experience with men is that they are very businesslike and transactional (or reciprocal) except when they totally lose their minds over a pretty face and/or hot body.

    “….In other words, you have the maturity level of children.
    Children, however, once you invest in them will love you until the day you die. Not so with a woman. She will take everything you’ve worked for.”

    You’d be surprised how intelligent and resilient children actually are. I have two kids (a boy and a girl) and know first hand how manipulative and conniving they can be. My boy started out that way, but hubby “trained it out of him” because boys should not be “girly”. So screams and tantrums got him nowhere. My daughter is allowed by daddy to get her own way due to her scheming and wiles. Why ? because she is cute and a girl. My dad would have turned in his grave. Me ? I am just the first engineer to the captain after all.

  • Anonymous Reader

    Not Carrie Bradshaw
    1) Men are the leaders. But it’s a thankless job if you want thanks from women.
    OK. As long as you take responsibility for your decisions, and if your decisions turn out bad, you will have to fix them yourself.

    We know, toots. We know quite well. We live in the real world, not girlworld.

    We know that not only do we have to take responsibility for our decisions, we have to take responsibility for your decisions even as you refuse to grant us any authority over you. So the same old, tired, “women’s choices, men’s responsibilities” trope is seen once again.

    Let me guess, Not Carrie – you write the checks, and some man has to cover them, no matter how big the amount. And you call that “equality” or something like it.

    Actually, it’s “eek-WALLET-ee”.

    But, I’m sure, You’re Different, because NAWALT….

  • Anonymous Reader

    Actually my statement about taking responsibility is gender neutral – it applies to both men AND women.

    It did not appear that way.

    Most of the time it is up to men to make women accountable (unfortunately), particularly when they are young.

    If you expect men to do this, they must have the authority that goes with the responsibility. In the modern world this is very difficult, because modern women in general (yes, NAWALT, thanks much) refuse to put themselves under anyone’s authority unless it involves a paycheck.

  • BC

    Great takedown of Giggles’ “combination of conventional female shaming, ad hominem, illogic, and an appeal to authority”:

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.jp/2013/10/savaged-by-statistical-sheep.html

    Also, not sure exactly when it happened, but HUS has disappeared from the Alpha Game blogroll. Finally. That’s got to sting.

  • FuriousFerret

    “Maybe because I always carried myself in a non girly, professional way which did not play up my feminity, charm and “helplessness” – thanks to my dad. Now, I wouldn’t have it any other way. ”

    I’m glad you sold your soul so you can be a professional in the corporate grind. Sounds like a great deal. Become a feminazi in exchange for being taken seriously in a fucking racket.

    If you paid me a million dollars to prance around like a queer in a feminized industry, I wouldn’t do it.

    “What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?”‘

    Yeah, yeah, I know you don’t care you love being a masculine femicunt. However, you know who does care and is tired of it, most guys. It’s degraded our quality of life having to put up with perversions every day.

  • Ton

    My desire for attractive women isn’t shallow, it’s about 9 inches deep

  • frigginnickname

    I dunno, I’ve always read NAWALT somewhat sarcastically, was it not meant that way?

  • Mike Caputo (@hanytimeh)

    “The issue isn’t the issue, the issue is that men do something similar so the offensive point is invalidated.”

    The actual issue is that it doesn’t matter whether what you’re saying is true, what matters is each individual woman’s feelings. Because each woman may have different feelings about your statement, any response to it, ranging from the kind of “tu quoque” you talk about to screeching man-hatred and/or claims of “emotional rape” is completely justified. I’m becoming increasingly convinced that no one should debate any woman on any issue until she demonstrates a capacity to respond like a rational adult. Even then, in the long run, there probably isn’t much point, because what’s ultimately going to determine the result is whether she thinks you’re alpha enough; the more you engage in debate that assumes peerhood, the more beta you appear, and the more her contempt for you will grow regardless of the validity of your arguments.

  • Jeremy

    @Not Carrie Bradshaw

    My daughter is allowed by daddy to get her own way due to her scheming and wiles. Why ? because she is cute and a girl. My dad would have turned in his grave.

    Make it clear to your husband that his son sees the inequity in how he treats his sibling. His son will resent his dad for treating the girl differently later in life. My family was 4 sons and 1 daughter, and none of the sons now has a good relationship with the dad because of his unequal treatment of that one girl of the family. Fathers are supposed to dole out justice, when they deliberately or unconsciously favor the female they destroy any trust that anyone has for them in that role.

  • Tin Man

    @Mike

    I couldn’t agree more. Anytime you engage, it results in something similar to the video below…

  • Anonymous Reader

    Also, not sure exactly when it happened, but HUS has disappeared from the Alpha Game blogroll. Finally. That’s got to sting.

    The Elusive Wapiti just had a runin with Giggles on a different topic:

    http://elusivewapiti.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-one-way-spin-on-campus-sexual.html

    Looks like the link love for HUS is gone from Elusive Wapiti now also.

  • ABC

    The idea of “female solipsism” and your injection (well, you probably think of it as just identification) of it into this first quote is shaky at best.

    It seems that this “solipsism” or lack thereof is really just a matter of phrasing. In regards to something that is under debate, while a man may try to present his experience as an unquestionable, universal fact by saying “it is…”, a woman may acknowledge that it is simply something she has drawn from her own experience by saying “in my experience, it is…” or “I think it is…”.

    That’s the gist of it, right?

    However, if anything, presenting your ideas in the first way seems much more “solipsistic” than the second, doesn’t it? The hypothetical woman is the one who presents an observation that acknowledges other possibilities.

    As for the rest, it’s pretty hilarious that you guys nitpick like this. Look at the first comment on this entry; the first thing this man felt the need to share was something about HIS ex. People in general like to relate things to their experiences. Look at how many men go on to talk about the women in THEIR area, the women THEY have dealt with, what THEY would do or say, what THEY think, what THEY suspect, where THEY stand etc.

    Many of the things in that list are redundant as you might have noticed, but that’s not the point. The point is that they’re turning the discussion in a direction that’s about themselves, and they’re doing it very often.

    It’s not an indication that you’re a solipsist (or more accurately in this context, self-obsessed) to refer to your own experiences and to acknowledge those experiences as your own rather than trying to pass them off as the divine truth.

    While ctrl+F’ing “I”, “me”, and “my” may be an enjoyable form of mental masturbation for you, it’s not nearly as revealing as you think it is. Well, that’s not quite true. It is revealing, but it reveals far more about you than it does your subject.

  • Ajax Murgatroyd

    Reminds me of “swordfighting the fart”:

  • Water Cannon Boy

    The point isn’t the phrasing. The point is the general statement is made, the response is there is some validity because even I have experienced it also.
    Versus the general statement being made, and the response is there is no validity because I’m not like that or I haven’t done that.
    So yes, I would expect a man to talk about women in his area, or ones he’s dealt with. He mentions what he’s observed in others, not what he is.

  • BC

    I love the smell of napalmed hamsters in the morning.

  • Elan

    @earl:

    “Shame a woman for having emotions and using them as a weapon…you’ll be a monster to womankind.
    Because they all use the same tactic and other than working the sex drive…it’s the only thing they got.”

    Women have every tactic men have and vice-versa. Reason, logic, facts, rational examples, lies, violence, etc, will all be employed if the tactic is deemed to be effective.

    The difference is that, for the majority of men, there are a lot of tactics that are deemed ‘off limits’.

    Now for the shaming of men, what I’ve noticed is that women, when they encounter a man using a tactic effectively against them, will immediately shift to attacking the use of that tactic.

    Facts and logic are kicking her ass? You’re not validating her emotions.

    Using emotional language against her? That’s ‘unfair.’

  • archerwfisher

    Baha, I found a silver nugget here. It’s a dating website Q/A site, and some girl is asking how many partners is too many, because there are some guys she wants to sleep with.

    http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Sexuality-Questions/905468-how-many-partners-ok-or-too-slutty.html

    Some golden remarks from teenage-early 20’s sluts.

    “It’s not important. It may be important to quite a few guys, but those guys are idiots, and not worth dating anyway.
    Just have fun. If any guy ever asks your “number”, tell them to mind their own business.”

    “Do what you feel is right. It’s your body. And if any future guy can’t accept your past then that’s his problem, not yours.
    Different people have different views on the “right” number of sex partners. One guy may expect you to be a virgin and another may not care at all how high your number is. Just live your life for you and no one else.”

    Thankfully, at least one girl advised not to sleep with too many guys, a real wife-material lady. She advises girls to keep it under 10. So as long as the girl has only slept with one basketball team, it’s good…

    “I think as long as you stay under 10 it’s good
    I know everyone says “Oh don’t let the number define you!” blah blah blah, but come on, there’s diseases out there, and there’s something called self-respect and dignity…I’ve seen girls who have had 30+ partners, and frankly, that’s just slutty and disgusting.”

  • AlphaBeta

    She’s wrong anyway. The main way that women insult men that is equivalent to what she considers hurtful to women is to call a man a virgin or creepy. Which I find really funny since those insults are the primary engine behind the “rape culture” that feminists complain about.

  • DeNihilist

    Well Ton, on the internet anything is possible – Har-Har!

    “My desire for attractive women isn’t shallow, it’s about 9 inches deep”

  • livingtree2013

    Wow, how flattering, I’ve never had an article written about me before! I must have really struck a nerve. I hope you’ll be just as pleased to know that I am writing an article about you as well!

    I find it very telling that you took my comments so personally – I did NOT take your article as a personal attack against women, but you took my comments as such, which is such a stereotypical response of a “modern man.” So sensitive, so irrational, so angry. Which was, incidentally, the point of my comment (which you missed, apparently). You perfectly illustrated the point I was making – a women has the gall to challenge you on your POV, and you actually went as far as to write an article attacking me for being an angry emotional bitch making everything a man says into an attack on women. This is a classic example of projecting. I’d laugh if it weren’t so tragic.

    Look, I don’t know whats made you guys so angry. I really have no idea what its like for you guys to date women, I’m sure they can be awful. But yet again, I have to point out what I think your article “Shallow” illustrated perfectly – young men make terrible choices, you just don’t realize it yet. And yes, women do it too, so don’t freak out again. I see it all the time.

    We both lie our way into relationships, then we are disappointed with the results of our own choices which resulted in a ‘LIFE COMMITMENT’, and because as humans we are incomprehensibly reluctant to admit failure or let go of things that are bad for us, we stay in situations which are terrible for far too long, we blame each other for not living up to our unrealistic expectations, and we get angry. Its an incredibly stupid cycle which ultimately ruins our lives, but believe me, it is not something that is exclusive to one gender. Men just have a tendency to express their disappointment and anger in more passive/aggressive ways than women do. Women get outwardly angry, men repress it but it still comes out in other ways. Both are awful, and both ruin lives.

    I saw this happening over and over in relationships, and despite the excessive social pressure we all feel to marry, I decided it wasn’t for me. The prospects were just too bleak to choose that for my future.

    Frankly, I’m glad to see that men are wising up to the stupidity of marrying just because we’re “supposed to”, hopefully that is the start of you guys making better choices in your lives, but I’m disappointed to see that you still haven’t gotten out of the blame cycle. I stopped blaming men a long, LONG time ago, and accepted responsibility for my own life. I realize that isn’t common, but it comes with maturity.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    …I’ve never had an article written about me before! I must have really struck a nerve. I hope you’ll be just as pleased to know that I am writing an article about you as well!

    Wouldn’t that be projecting? Or a shame tactic?

  • Tin Man

    And yet the point is missed – possibly by everyone. MY point is below and like most of the articles I read, it has nothing to do with woman – they are not the intended audience…

    Life isn’t easy Gentlemen. That’s not the role we play. There may be no one to tell you how great you are, how appreciated you are, how strong you are – regardless, you have to pick yourself up and get to the next place. The end goal is elusive. It’s a hard truth to swallow, that the people you give your life to may never let you know, and never show you any support. Ultimately, you will live your life supporting others – it’s what we do, it’s what we have always done, it’s what we will always do. Don’t rage against it, accept it, then live your life accordingly.

    Eyes front Gentlemen. Live, Learn, Lead.

  • LostSailor

    Look, I don’t know whats made you guys so angry.

    If you thought the article or comments were “angry,” you might want to get your perception filter checked. We’re not angry about being labeled “shallow” or about other typical female shaming tactics, such as the one’s on display in your ranty comment. We’re amused. Especially amused that you’d think such tactics still work once men become aware of them.

    We both lie our way into relationships, then we are disappointed with the results of our own choices… Its an incredibly stupid cycle which ultimately ruins our lives

    Speak for yourself, toots.

    I stopped blaming men a long, LONG time ago, and accepted responsibility for my own life.

    Really? Really? Because there’s not much evidence of that here…

  • strauMan (@strauMan)

    Hamster meets solipsism…a love story.

  • M Simon

    2) Give up your boyish hope that a woman will love you like you want her to. As Rollo has thoroughly explained, it’s not going to happen because it’s not possible.

    They can be trained to be submissive. See “The Taming of the Shrew” – I like the Burton/Taylor version.

    I will grant that it is very difficult. But what in life that is worth doing isn’t.

    One help – have a girlfriend she knows about. Keeps her on her toes and in a “loving” mood.

  • M Simon

    4) Even when a woman thinks she’s your intellectual equal, she’s not even close. Women are incapable of accurate self-assessment.

    Farther than about 20 IQ points apart and an LTR is not possible.

    In this – and in fact in all things – women want to marry up. It is only in the last 30 years that “nerds” have moved up in “attractiveness”. Just tell her you are a computer engineer. Better – be one.

  • M Simon

    Because I believed, she wasn’t like that, she believed in our marriage, in our partnership. She wasn’t just placating me, she was really, really sorry and things would change.

    Things won’t change until you dominate her. If you can do that she will love you to death. But it ain’t easy. It takes time – effort – and calibration. You must continuously push her over her edge. But not too far all at once. She should never be entirely comfortable. Mostly and very are OK. Entirely is not.

    It is all about give and take. Giver her something and then take it back. Make her pine for what she is missing. Give it to her. And take it back again. Maybe give a little more to “make up” for the last time you took it from her. Then take it back again.

    You can’t count on love. But you can play for it.

    After a while you can “Remember how much you complained when I pushed you over xxx edge? And see how much you like it now? I’m going to make you like being over this edge.” When she says, “OK” , you are well on your way to her total submission.

    So why put in all that effort? Marriage breakups are VERY BAD for children. If you have any you should keep all this in mind. If you don’t have any? My condolences. They are the greatest adventure life has to offer. Lots of challenge on many levels.

  • M Simon

    BC
    October 25th, 2013 at 9:33 am

    I love the smell of napalmed hamsters in the morning.

    OH. Yeah.

  • M Simon

    We both lie our way into relationships

    So you admit to being a liar? How attractive. /sarc

    I have yet to meet a woman who was not. Some more. Some less. But just about all (there may be some – I just haven’t met them).

    It is one reason you don’t find many women in engineering. It is very difficult to get a transistor to cover for you.

  • Augustus

    I’ve illustrated examples of feminine solipsism in many a post… However, not all women are like that,..until all women are like that.

    What about making a post summarizing what you understand by feminine solipsism for late comers? I still like to see it as megalomania:

    1. They have superiority complex and are not aware of it.
    2. They are childish and are not aware of it.
    3. They are emotionally egocentric and are not aware of it.

    Not all women aren’t like that, but I am quite sure all feminists are like that. So the question is how many women are not feminists. The pool will shrink considerably (i.e., women who take into account and respect men’s standards, opinions, needs, etc.).

  • hoellenhund2

    Why do any of you waste your time trying to have rational debates with silly cunts like livingtree or what’s her name?

  • Aristippus

    When you mention any of the negative behaviors displayed, AS A PATTERN, by a large number of women out there, many people try to sweep it under the rug or to minimize the degree of the misbehavior and and say “Oh, well, that’s women for you!”.

    And many women will write stupid essays about how “I need a man who will love me and put up with my b.s. but he’s sensitive, etc etc.”. No, what women need is to be held accountable for their behavior. I almost never get sick, but I remember getting so sick and being in so much pain one time and my head hurting so bad it felt like my head would explode. And I wasn’t rude to a single person. So I don’t buy the whole PMS b.s. You can feel bad and not use it as an excuse for rude, uncivilized behavior.

    People, men and women, need to have higher expectations for female behavior. And it’s up to the men to be the ones who will set and then enforce those standards by just simply not sweeping bad behavior under the rug and being willing to walk away or if not walk away, to discipline his woman. Through his words and actions and also by allowing her to experience the full consequences, the true results, of her own behavior.

    It seems like there’s always some man who will moronically be there to shield a woman from the backlash of her own bad decisions or thoughtless or bad behavior. If unable to completely shield her from the consequences of her own actions, he (or they) will at least foolishly jump in the way and suffer some of the blow, serving as some kind of a buffer to shield her from the full force of the consequences of her own actions. He does this at his own expense and at the expense of the character of the woman (or women) he chooses to “save” every time she digs her own hole.

    Some might say it’s female nature. But if it is, it can be improved on. Using the bathroom in the woods might be human nature but now we have indoor plumbing. A baby is born selfish and that selfishness has to be trained OUT of the child, otherwise that child would try to selfishly impose on everyone around him all the time. If a woman is this way in her romantic relationships, then men could train this out of her, the same way you train selfishness out of a child.

  • LostSailor

    Why do any of you waste your time trying to have rational debates with silly cunts like livingtree or what’s her name?

    It’s not so much debating rationally, it’s more like toying with the troll…

  • Augustus

    @Aristippus: Excellent. You’ve summarized in a single comment the whole problem we face at this current historical inflection point. My comments:

    People, men and women, need to have higher expectations for female behavior. And it’s up to the men to be the ones who will set and then enforce those standards by just simply not sweeping bad behavior under the rug and being willing to walk away or if not walk away, to discipline his woman. Through his words and actions and also by allowing her to experience the full consequences, the true results, of her own behavior.

    Exactly. Feminism in a nutshell is the use and manipulation of the male desire and feelings for egotistical purposes.

    He does this at his own expense and at the expense of the character of the woman (or women) he chooses to “save” every time she digs her own hole.

    As a matter of fact, he is digging his own whole. This has happened for instance on a societal basis. I mean, the vast majority of women compensate Nice Guys and White Knights with contempt and despise. I think we have enough evidence of this.

    Some might say it’s female nature. But if it is, it can be improved on. Using the bathroom in the woods might be human nature but now we have indoor plumbing. A baby is born selfish and that selfishness has to be trained OUT of the child, otherwise that child would try to selfishly impose on everyone around him all the time. If a woman is this way in her romantic relationships, then men could train this out of her, the same way you train selfishness out of a child.

    Exactly. We need to stop treating them as children. Women, most of the time, know exactly what they are doing. This is one of the several double standards against men as well: nature and instinct is used to justify women’s choices and irresponsible behavior whereas men cannot use the same argument to justify theirs. They basically respond to incentives and risks, just like a selfish child does. If our society does not make them accountable for their behavior, then they will continue behaving irresponsibly because there is no risk associated with their bad behavior.

  • M Simon

    Watch “the Taming of the Shrew” (Burton/Taylor)

    http://viooz.co/movies/9264-the-taming-of-the-shrew-1967.html

    The end is particularly significant. Two men are pussy whipped. Burton is not. The Shrew (in all women) is tamed.

  • Just Saying

    ‘terms like “shallow” and “superficial” ‘

    I’m almost always called something like a “dog” – of course they don’t mean it to be a compliment, but from my perspective dogs are loyal, trustworthy, loving, etc. Of course they mean that I’ll go after a skirt that’s attractive to me and in heat – the women that call me that never seem to like the analogy – “Hmmm… So does that make you my b*tch? Seems pretty appropriate.” Yesterday I was the guy she “wants to spend the rest of my life with”, today I’m a “dog”… Women are so predictable – you have to laugh at them, but love them too. Of course, after a couple of weeks the last one wanted to come back – but she had given up her right to a weekly date, now she’s my “lunch-time” date – for when I have the time at lunch and getting randy, I call her for a quickie – she drops work and meets me for a while (she works close to one of my offices). That is her punishment – if she doesn’t complain, and does a good job she can earn her way back into my good graces.

    I’m convinced that women need to have a reason to repent their poor behavior, and to be punished for it. Women know when they go over the line – it’s just another sh*t-test – so you make the punishment increasingly harsh. Reward good behavior, punish bad behavior. Just like you would a dog – women never seem to see the irony when they call me a “dog” since I’m training them just like I trained my dogs to obey me – using similar techniques. But I have more tricks for them to learn.. I found out long ago, if you treat women like they are your pet it keeps them happy. :)

  • M Simon

    Reward good behavior, punish bad behavior. Just like you would a dog – women never seem to see the irony when they call me a “dog” since I’m training them just like I trained my dogs to obey me – using similar techniques. But I have more tricks for them to learn..

    Excellent advice.

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  • kayne

    the core of this problem is the thinking that the two sexes are equal. hence they say “but men are doing it too and worse” because this implies just because men do it they should do it too.

    It’s like thinking the two sexes look for the same traits in a mate when the reality is they don’t. it’s this both sexes are equal thinking that creating NAWALT or “but men are doing it too and worse” because the thinking is women are equal to men and even perhaps better than men which if women are better than men they really should be held to a higher standard but feminist logic won’t allow such logically thinking after all your liberal feminist wants to have her cake and eat it too.

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