Hear Me Now, Believe Me Later

One of the most common lamentations I read in the manosphere usually goes something like this,…

“Where the hell was all this info and wisdom when I was single? I so wish I’d discovered the manosphere / red pill before I proposed / had kids / got divorced / got burned by listening to what my girlfriend said / was younger,..etc. etc.”

It’s even more of a shame because so often it’s guys in what should be the prime of their SMV who relate this. I wish I had a better response than “better late than never.”

Blunt Force Trauma

Unplugging is difficult enough in and of itself, but realizing and accepting that your previous mindset might not be entirely accurate is a hard conversation to have with yourself. It’s unfortunate that experience teaches harsh, but teaches best. However, I’ve found it much healthier to accept that, like the majority of  men, we don’t want to come to terms with  our faults and inaccuracies in mindset until we’re shaken awake by a trauma sufficient enough to break us down.

Religion has long realized that the best opportunity for conversion is when a person is at a low point in their life. Depending upon the intentions of the person doing the converting this can be a good or a bad thing, but what they’re seizing upon is a point at which we’re the most receptive to influence because we’re earnestly reconsidering our beliefs in light of some failure or tragedy. Perhaps unfortunately, it’s a state of the human condition that we learn better from our failures than our successes.

This is due to painful experiences making a more profound impact on our psyche’s and memories than pleasurable ones. While the birth of my child and my wedding day were pleasurable, benchmark memories, I learned less from them than when I finally tore myself away from the neurotic BPD woman I’d been a voluntary prisoner of for years. It’s been written into our brains to learn from pain. It was a selected-for survival trait that corrected us when we were repeatedly making the same fatal errors. The things that are important to us as evolving beings are associated with what we most vividly remember.

Patience

So, it’s with this in mind that I came to learn to have patience with men who were diametrically opposed to what I offer as positively masculine enlightenment here. Over the years on the SoSuave forum I gradually made friends of formerly hostile opponents for no other reason than patiently awaiting their having an experience that validated some principle  or behavior I was trying to relate to them. Former critics (JOPHIL, R.I.P.) became fantastic friends once they’d experienced first hand the dynamic I was describing. All it took was a bit of patience, and a consistent, cogent explanation of idea.

I’ve stated in the past that unplugging chumps from the Matrix is dirty work, akin to triage; save the ones you can and read last rites to the terminal. However it’s equally important not to casually NEXT a guy that could be unplugged once he’s been made brutally aware of the system that’s keeping him trapped. Often enough it’s his lack of traumatic experience combined with an extensive conditioning that’s holding him back from really understanding a Game-aware perspective. He’s not an asshole, he simply hasn’t had the experience that would make him reconsider his perspective.

In the same respect that I feel relationships based on negotiated desire are disingenuous, I also believe that coercing someone else to see my perspective is not a valid expression of genuine desire. I cannot make a person believe what I do, I can only present my belief to them. A person, man or woman, has to come to that genuine change of their own volition. I’m not interested in a readership full of yes-men clones; there needs to be challenges in perspective for a marketplace of ideas to thrive. I encourage people to tell me I’m wrong, because if my ideas can’t weather open scrutiny then they aren’t strong enough ideas to profess.

I don’t want to unplug robots from the Matrix just to make them robots of my own perspective. I may be guilty of a tough-love approach by a well needed kick in the ass to understand the reality of what a guy may be going through in that moment, but I know that a real shift in understanding comes not from force, but from a person determining that shift for themselves. Jarring a person awake isn’t the same as attacking them personally.

So at the end of all this I want to encourage all of my Game-aware readers not to give up too readily on the guys they may think are hopeless. In fact I’d suggest that the guys you know who are the most hostile to your perspective are the ones who’ll more readily accept and understand your wanting to make them Game-aware. Their fervency in the Matrix is only a short trip to fervency in positive masculinity if you’re patient enough. All these guys are just one traumatic experience away from grasping the truth of Game.


75 responses to “Hear Me Now, Believe Me Later

  • A.B. Dada

    A key element for change in a guy is to get them to lose body fat and lift weights 2-3 days a week. Why? Testosterone may very well be the most important missing link to accepting the red pill naturally.

    You don’t need to be huge or ripped or even cut, you just need that rush of constant testosterone to finally stop giving a shit or overcoming oneitis.

  • Captain Action

    Yep. Testosterone. I wholly believe that upping my mass & strength & T will not only raise my physical appeal and sex rank, but will also raise my assertiveness and fortify me to “stop giving a shit” in my interactions with men & women. It gives you real strength to differentiate, to draw your boundaries and to build from within. And in a very real sense, when one becomes bigger, your inner game will follow suit, especially if you’ve taken a dose of the pill.

    .

  • Captain Action

    “I don’t want to unplug robots from the Matrix just to make them robots of my own perspective.”

    This is so important to remember for those of us who’ve been robots to the Matrix. You have to question & debate. It helps you refine what you believe. Fortunately, I have found that I don’t always agree with all the manosphere topics or points. I also don’t think I ever really agreed with all of the points of the Matrix either (afterall, why would I feel so much shame about being a nice guy if that was truly what women wanted), I just didn’t know of any other models to follow.

    Now that I’ve discovered this world, I do feel as though it’s offering me the clearest and most supportive means of improving my trajectory in my marriage and as a man. I was initially turned off by what I saw from PUA/ Game sites, but I dug deeper, I questioned, and fortunately I found themes of positive masculinity, social skill development, and even a kind of rite of passage to becoming a better man.

    Yeah. i wish I’d found this before I ran into a crisis myself, but damnit, I’m glad it’s here. And I sure as hell won’t miss an opportunity to plant seeds in the minds of other men that may look like I looked before my awakening.

  • docmarrero

    Excellent piece, very true!!

  • Phinn

    I tried to unplug another man this weekend. I knew exactly what he was going through, and tried to shock him awake with some radical assertions about his situation, but I don’t think I got through to him. All he wanted to do was gripe about what his girlfriend was doing to him, treating him badly. I tried to convince him, as gently as I could, that the problem (and the solution) were within himself, in his attitude toward women in general. No sale.

    His girlfriend is my wife’s best friend. My wife came within one phone call of cheating on me. I had to learn married game in about 3 months, from the time I found out about her secret coffee dates, to the point where I drew the line in the sand. It was the most emotionally intense period of my life, and none of it would have even begun if I had known even rudimentary game.

    So this weekend, I see my wife’s best friend getting the same kind of treatment I got when I was one step away from getting the heave-ho. Nitpicking criticism, the do-no-right attitude, public challenges to basic competence and manhood, the You Can’t Win routine, wondering what she ever saw in him to begin with … textbook.

    I tried to tell him — his critiques of her were missing the Big Picture. Her reliance on a double standard should not surprise you, I said, because women are not rational. They are moral contortionists, infinitely solipsistic. Her criticisms of you are not her real concern, so you can ignore the content of them entirely.

    His problem is in the fundamentals. His girlfriend is extremely rich. He’s a working stiff. He has spent himself into poverty trying to casually go along with the recreational preferences of a woman who thinks nothing of $700/night hotels and buying cars worth more than my house.

    He’s allowed the disparity to turn him into a clingy, self-deprecating, whiner who’s always apologizing for not having a spare $1,000 to drop in any given weekend.

  • Kuraje

    While testosterone is definitely a factor, it’s not the sole factor.

    I was in a relationship with a BPD for 2 years. 1 year in, my sex drive waned heavily (gasp) and I tried ‘Tripling My Testosterone’ ala the 4 Hour Body by Tim Ferriss.

    It worked. I had a lust for inflicting pain in my sparring sessions and pleasure in the bedroom like never before. Quite frankly, I’ve never felt so alive.

    While it worked, the resulting psycho-fuckery of being with a BPD was what forced a 2nd swallowing of the red pill. While I’d taken it before, I had a relapse I’ve learned isn’t so isolated amongst men who’ve uncovered game. Exquisite explanation by The Rawness here:

    http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/

    Reader beware: 20,000+ words. Every word is solid necessary shit though.

    That being said, I suspect the problem may be multi-fold for a significant number of men:

    1. External circumstances (i.e. fem-centric society et al)
    2. Internal circumstances (i.e. inner game, core issues, narcissism/codependency issues etc)

    Learning game is one piece of the puzzle (psychology). Awareness of a fem-centric society another (psychology/sociology). Upping testosterone and working out another puzzle piece (biology).

    I find all these to basically fall under the larger umbrella of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs with self-actualization. If men adopt a holistic approach for achieving this goal independent of societal programming in a constructive cooperative fashion, then we may just swing the pendulum back towards saner times.

  • Flahute

    I can relate to this, because when you gain profound wisdom, it clicks, it seems so apparent in the present, you wish you had seen it sooner, and so you say to yourself, “if only I had known this back then . . . everything would be different.”

    “Someday, everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece.” – Bob Dylan

    He recorded that song in 1971 when most thought his masterpieces had already been written.

    We can’t change the past. Rather than re-examine our past, we must construct our futures with our present knowledge. “Blood on the Tracks” is just around the corner.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    It isn’t about grasping the truth of game. it is about grasping the truth of life. Game or no game, women will be women will be women.

    The only guys I have no respect for are the ones who have seen all the signs, they’ve read the boards and blogs, yet they still choose to believe in the soulmate myth lite (aka “good” girls) and it seems that no matter how many times they get burned they will take that to their grave. Plenty of them on SS. That’s a big reason why I left. I don’t need everyone to agree with me but I have no patience for people who pick and choose parts of the truth, throwing out what feels uncomfortable and keeping whatever is left.

    Paging Susan Walsh……Susan Walsh to the courtesy desk please…..

  • Survivorman

    “It’s unfortunate that experience teaches harsh, but teaches best.”

    Experience is a harsh teacher – because she gives you the test first..
    and the lesson *afterwards*.

    I forget where I saw that – but it stuck in my mind. And yes, experience is most definitely a “she”..

  • AW

    Well stated man, thank you for that.

  • YaReally

    Even once the pill is taken there are levels to it where this comes up. The guy who spins a few plates in a drunken haze at social circle parties for a few years then settles down with a wife and practices his marriage game doesn’t have the same experience a sober guy who regularly picks up new girls anywhere from bars to coffee shops has.

    There’s almost too much information on Game available now. People don’t have to experience it first hand to form opinions, they just adopt a belief system from whatever company or guru they stumble across and then debate what should and shouldn’t work based on a combination of that and really limited biased experience.

    When PUAs were first tackling this stuff (pre-The Game) we had nothing to go by except cold hard experience. The things we found about the unimportance of looks and money, about the hypergamy of women, about what alpha traits girls respond to, about how fast you can escalate things, about what controversial things you can say/do and still get the girl…this was all forged out of going out and pushing the limits. Tyler Durden still goes out 5-7 nights a week and encourages newbies to go out a minimum of 4 nights a week, because beliefs are retarded…experience is what matters.

    The guy who believes money matters is the same as the guy who believes game doesn’t work. They’re just at different levels of inexperience. This isn’t necessarily their fault, lives get busy, pickup isn’t everyone’s priority, etc. it’s not a judgement of their worth, it’s just saying “if you haven’t done X, you can’t understand Y.”

    This is why I say any guy who goes out a shit-ton will understand my rants. The guys who argue are simply inexperienced. That doesn’t mean they’re not decent people, it’s just a fact. I don’t know how to play the guitar, but I wouldn’t argue with a guy who plays shows nightly what the best way to hold one is.

    Unless I was too full of myself to admit that I don’t play the guitar regularly enough to have an opinion on it…ego-protection and all that.

  • unscathed

    ” Unplugging is difficult enough in and of itself, but realizing and accepting that your previous mindset might not be entirely accurate is a hard conversation to have with yourself. It’s unfortunate that experience teaches harsh, but teaches best. However, I’ve found it much healthier to accept that, like the majority of men, we don’t want to come to terms with our faults and inaccuracies in mindset until we’re shaken awake by a trauma sufficient enough to break us down.”

    Reminds me of a Roosevelt quote:
    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

  • Dreamer

    I lurked around SS. About Jophil, I think he held on to remain critical to the very end, though he did admit to using some of the things you said, I don’t think he ever disavowed his criticisms and points as in “you are 100% right and I’m 100% wrong.” You make it sound like he completely surrendered to your complete superiority of wisdom and knowledge. No man is infallible. So the wording kinda irritated me.

    @Chuck – For the ones who lurks and read a lot (like me). I like to avoid making that mistake. So what do you mean exactly by picking and choosing. There’s been contradictory advice in the blogosphere before to pick and choose from. Your line of the “good girl,” what do you mean exactly in terms of practice? Do you mean guys who ignore the idea of being on your guard and refuse to accept that any girl have the potential to do evil (including Rollo’s wife for example)? Or any use to taking note of any trait or background to discern character? I mean even Roissy posted a study where a girl’s sexual history leads to major differences to divorce. Qualities associated with “good girl” do matter, it is just no guarantee, only a proxy, and it means she’s not incapable or an exception to how attraction really works.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Speaking of Susan Walsh, I pop in over there from time to time for shits and giggles and happened to catch her most recent post. Scanning through the comments I happened upon this gem. Apparently Rollo is a “toxic presence” who despises women and is “wrong about most things”. And of course, in the same post she drops the ban hammer on yet another “dissenter”. It is plain to see how much use Susan has for the truth.

    @Jason

    My attitude of dismay that this once was a blog where you’d listen to input from people like Yohami and Rollo, but now you have what, 12 regular commenters all parroting each other?

    Both Yohami and Rollo are toxic presences in coed company, as they despise women. Their comments are filled with invective, both general and personal. They’re also wrong about most things. The good news for you is that they both have blogs. You are no longer welcome here.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Some men would like to believe that there is a class of women who are immune to the forces of the sexual market. All of us acknowledge that there are differences in individual women but some guys are a bit optimistic about where their “special” girl sits on the scale.

  • Dreamer

    Fair enough. Though I do remember you been pretty terrible at explaining that. I won’t be surprised if you explain like you just did, you’ll find more agreement.

  • Stingray

    And yes, experience is most definitely a “she”..

    Heh, nice. Experience is most definitely a slap you across the face type of girl. At least experience is not subtle. In that way, it’s pretty masculine.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    When guys like Jesus Mahoney are seeing through her bullshit, you know the ship is taking on water.

    Seeing Rollo in a whole new light. Beginning to regret my insults toward him.

    If you think that means that women want men who live by the golden rule of only ever giving 2/3 as much love as they receive, then go hang with Rollo. That’s what repulses and disgusts *me*. You can go light, or you can go dark. There is no walking the middle ground. But you can’t go dark here.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/03/29/politics-and-feminism/is-the-end-of-hypergamy-near/comment-page-4/#comments

    He’s always welcome here, so don’t be too harsh on him.

  • YOHAMI

    hah. finally JM got the cue. he had to listen it coming from a woman though.

    Its funny how Susan keeps bouncing to fix the mess. “No no no we want beta!”, but then she says it again: “we want to extract the beta from the alpha.”

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Who could have predicted that she would eventually go the way of so many female bloggers before her, shaming anyone who dares utter a critical word about women and banning anyone who dares to challenge her interpretation of the truth?

  • FFY

    “I tend to err on the side of zero censorship”

    HAHA

  • mmaier2112

    Wow. Little Suzie is becoming quite the headcase.

  • Kuraje

    Np. Pay it forward when you have the opp.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    The truth is terrible. And I don’t have much patience.

    How do you know who I am, BTW?

  • Dreamer

    I remember someone called you by your old handle somewhere in these comments before.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    What’s new, Yohami?

    Rollo,

    I do apologize for being rude, and thank you for the plea to make me feel welcome. I’ll probably be scarce though. While I do understand a lot of what you’re preaching over here, I just don’t think relationships are for me under the circumstances.

    To me, if I can’t be the alpha in her life without playing games, then she’s not worth the time.

  • Stingray

    Why are you questioning that you may not be the alpha in her life? (If you’ve gone through this and do not want to again, please ignore. I haven’t read 95% of the comments at HUS).

  • YOHAMI

    “if I can’t be the alpha in her life without playing games, then she’s not worth the time.”

    I cosign that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Why are you questioning that you may not be the alpha in her life? (If you’ve gone through this and do not want to again, please ignore. I haven’t read 95% of the comments at HUS).

    Long story. This has been a thing brewing for a while over at HUS. So, everybody’s pretty much saying that women will fantasize about other men. And the ultimate female fantasy is winning over the “pure” alpha and drawing out the beta in him.

    (Incidentally, this is what spurred on my apology to Rollo, since it seems to me that this insight is central to Rollo’s philosophy–that women want to win the alpha and bring out the beta side of him. Rollo seems to be saying that you should present “alpha” to your woman, allow her to think that she’s drawing out some of your beta, but always remind her of that alpha part, so that she never quite feels as if she’s completely won you over. By doing so, you keep her interested and maintain sexual tension in your relationship.)

    I have issues with all of this, because:

    a. I don’t want to commit myself to a woman who’s fantasizing about other men, and

    b. I don’t want to have to “pretend” anything to keep her interested. I want to be just what I am, a mix of alpha/beta. I think I’m the fucking bomb just the way I am, and if a woman doesn’t agree, if she needs to see me as more alpha, or feel like she’s responsible for the beta…. or if she’s “happy” with me, but more excited by the idea of the raw alpha who hasn’t shown his beta side to the world, then she can gtfo as far as I’m concerned.

    And if this is female nature–to want to win over the pure alpha and draw the beta out in him–then that’s going to be inevitable.

  • Stingray

    Jesus, If I may, please define fantasize. Does it bother you that she may watch a movie that shows the ultimate alpha being tamed and be highly entertained by it? Or is it more a fantasize during sex thing?

  • YOHAMI

    I think it’s more about the nature of (female) love itself. It’s more shape-oriented than depth oriented, and the shape is quite basic. And not any man in particular.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Stingray,

    I don’t think she’s fantasizing about anybody else during sex. Yea, it bothers me that she may watch a movie that shows the ultimate alpha and be aroused by it.

  • Stingray

    Yohami,

    I don’t understand. Could you please explain?

  • deti

    Yes. I think a lot of it is that women want not so much to love a man as to love. The act of loving is slightly more important than the object of that love.

    And re fantasy and fantasizing – my experience with this is that women fantasize about ideal men, men who exist only in and on romance novels and cheesy women’s channel movies. These men have no real identities other than as objects of lust, or sex, or utility to the woman. Most women have no intention of trying to fulfill these fantasies but like to entertain them because it occupies their thoughts and even tingles them, I suspect.

    Some women fantasize during sex to reach climax. But I think most women fantasize off and on, every so often, and not so much about sex.

    Whereas when men fantasize, it is always about sex or during sex or masturbation as an aid to reaching orgasm. Men don’t daydream about getting married or being husbands or getting a virgin. We might mentally undress a coworker but that takes seconds and we quickly move on.

  • deti

    I think women who fantasize about “ideal” men know these are fantasies, nothing more. It’s impossible to fulfill the fantasy because its object does not exist. It’s a fun mental game for some women.

    And I’m not so sure a woman fantasizing during sex necessarily means there’s a defect. She might be high T. She might have a high sex drive. She might have some problems reaching climax without it. OTOH, if she’s so conditioned her brain that the only way she can get off is to fantasize then maybe something’s wrong that can or cannot be corrected.

  • Stingray

    (This may sounds like a jibe. It’s not.) You do not ever see a gorgeous woman, become aroused and then seek your girlfriend?

    Here’s the thing. Yes, taming the alpha probably is the ultimate female fantasy. It’s also a Disney fantasy and I think (hope?) most women realize that a fantasy is all it is ever going to be. It is also a fantasy in the fact that it is something that we think we want, but in reality, the ultimate alpha is not going to bring enough comfort for an actual LTR (I am speaking from some solipsism here and I admit I may be wrong). It would be so much work and so much anxiety that eventually she will burn out. The fantasy will never come to fruition.

    The actual reality is we want the dominate alpha. You say you have a lot of very alpha traits. We especially need to see this at the beginning of the relationship. When your natural beta traits (I know some of you are uncomfortable with the term beta traits and prefer different terminology, but go with me here) begin to emerge some women will be honored as hell that you showed that side of yourself to them. It brings about the comfort and it makes her feel special that you chose her to show them to. To her, she has tamed your alpha a bit and she will be excited about that and about you. In that way you have fulfilled her fantasy.

    If she sees it again on a movie or whatnot, she may become excited, but it is most likely you she is becoming aroused at. If she is becoming aroused because of the movie, it is you she is turning to. Her alpha. The one she was reminded of. The one she is thinking about right now.

    I have seen you write about your girl before and I think you may have a good one. I can’t say for sure this is what is happening in your case because, of course, there are women out there who are so completely shallow that they will use a man for her arousal and that’s it. It’s up to each man to figure out what kind of girl he has.

  • deti

    At the end of the day, in relationships no one gets everything they want. Even if they did get “everything” they wanted, they don’t get it all the time.

    Everyone compromises to make a relationship work. No woman is everything to her husband. No man holds every single quality his wife wants or wanted.

  • Stingray

    in relationships no one gets everything they want.

    No they don’t. Also men, please remember, women think they know what they want, but they are often wrong about it. They get what they think they want and then get angry, bored, etc. It’s a mindf*ck. Most of you reading here likely know better what we want than we do ourselves.

  • YOHAMI

    ” If she is becoming aroused because of the movie, it is you she is turning to. Her alpha. The one she was reminded of. ”

    Right, if I see transformers and get aroused at Megan Fox, Im really turning to my girlfriend, it’s because Megan Fox reminded me of her.

    Please.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    JM, you’re always welcome here, and I don’t mean that in a Dark Lord of the Sith context either.

    As much as I know how averse you are to reading Roissy’s stuff, coincidentally he wrote an interesting piece that kind of speaks to what you’re dealing with in regards to your GF’s fantasizations:

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/word-is-getting-out/

    He goes off on the popularity of the 50 Shades of Gray book and the duplicitous paradox between hypergamy, women’s fantasies and their internal conflict for wanting beta providers:

    Feminists rush to claim that these sordid female fantasies are just that: fantasy. But then why is it these books of female porn never showcase a woman having a torrid affair with an attentive, polite beta male who does the dishes and shows up for dates on time? If these desires were outcroppings of the realm of fantasy alone, severed from real desirous thoughts that can be acted upon, then reason dictates women in all their glorious individuality – nawalt, don’t you know! — would fantasize in the fantasy-dedicated lobes of their brains about a random assortment of scenarios and male archetypes. Yet the thematic universality persists.

    Didja hear that?

    That was the sound of all the air being let out of every ideological premise Susan Walsh has ever espoused on Hooking Up Beta. I can hardly wait to read how she twists in the wind rationalizing this with her past and present ideologies.

  • Stingray

    You are always saying men and women think differently so why are you projecting now?

    So when you watch Megan Fox do you wank one off and then go to your girl or do you go to your girl and think about Megan Fox? Don’t really care and as long as you are slamming away I am sure your girl doesn’t either.

    I think women fantasize more about what we want done to us, not necessarily who does it. If we are with a guy unwilling to do certain things then we may fantasize about someone who will. If you are willing to do those things our minds will be focused on . . . well, what is happening.

    Kinda hard to simulate Megan Fox’s body. Not many woman can pull that one off.

  • deti

    I think most women fantasize differently than most men. I think women’s fantasies are usually of a different character and purpose than most men’s. She fantasizes of the unattainable ideal. She wants something she knows she can never have. He fantasizes of the tangible, the real, the past, a memory.

  • Stingray

    This too. It’s why vampire porn is so popular. Can ever have it, fun to think about.

  • YOHAMI

    Stingray,

    Im not projecting, Im pointing to some hamstering you did. See. If girls go to see John Carter and get aroused by the pure alpha, and then they turn to their boyfriends with extra filled admiration and attachment – then it’s true, the pure alpha only reminded them of their bfs.

    But what usually happens, is that when a girl is exposed to a higher alpha source, she turns to her boyfriend with contempt and disdain. And starts a fight.

    “I think women fantasize more about what we want done to us, not necessarily who does it.”

    That’s what I mean with love being about a shape, and not related to any man in particular. It’s a fixation with a form that could be filled up by any man. So, it’s not the same thing men call love. It’s a role based play with an unnamed actor.

  • Stingray

    Yohami,

    Ok, I understand. This is why I said I was being solipsistic and may be wrong. I see a movie with the alpha and turn to my husband with “extra filled admiration and attachment”. I assume other girls dating alphas so the same. If Jesus is alpha, then his girl is probably doing this. He says he is, so . . . .

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Rollo,

    Thanks for the link. It articulates one of the things I’ve been thinking about the last couple of days.

  • YOHAMI

    There are ways to transfer that. Even when this happens in real life, if a more alpha dude is displaying his stuff in front of her but you’re the one touching her, she transfer her arousal to you. Kino 101. If she perceives the alpha source and you as separate beings, you get contempt instead, or a “you and him fight” sort of thing.

    The other way to handle it is to enhance the separate beings thing by doing it yourself: let go of the girl and do your own thing in a non reactive way, but in a way where she risks losing you (you are getting aroused by megan fox) so the girl finds herself alone, and runs back to you quickly.

  • Stingray

    That’s what I mean with love being about a shape, and not related to any man in particular. It’s a fixation with a form that could be filled up by any man. So, it’s not the same thing men call love. It’s a role based play with an unnamed actor.

    This I am not so sure about and can only give my own perspective. If a different man came to fill my husbands shoes and did much of what my husband does I am not sure I would love him. Yes, I think that one of the major things women fall in love with is what a man does. His actions tell us a whole lot about his character, or at least we hope it does. But, yes actions or doing make us fall in love. But no one person is going to “do” the same.

    On the contrary, women (I think) wish men would notice her more for her actions. I think one of the reasons women hate being pedestalized so much is because we know the thoughts that go through our heads and it’s not pretty. Those of us who do differently (or try to) would like to be noticed for those things and not who you think we are. Having our actions noticed and admired (our actions pedestalized) is ok and even wonderful. But being pedestalized for who you think we are can be downright scary.

    Thing is, women are not taught to “do” good by their man anymore. So I am not sure where that leaves us. I guess right where we are in the current SMP.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @JM, not sure if you’ve read this yet, but look over the Going Alpha part here:

    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/relationship-game-a-primer/

    I think what you’re struggling with is the ‘becoming someone else’ to be your GF’s A-Guy. I can understand a want for being genuine with yourself, but you really have a choice to make: You either become the Game and make it who you are (rather than think it’s a script), or you find a woman for whom you are her apex ideal male.

    It’s important to accept that no guy will ever be a woman’s ideal, because the moment he’s attained he ceases to be the ideal. There is no such thing as contentment. The best you can do is mitigate that discontent to your own advantage. So even with your ‘ideal’ GF you’ll still be occasionally dethroned of your status for a fantasy.

    Also, I have to add that it was interesting reading the advice women are giving you about this. There’s a lot of Hamsters spinning to convince you that your GF will take all that sexual anxiety she derives from her fantasy and apply it to you. Beta bait, don’t take it.

    The truth is women do in fact fantasize about fucking other guys while you’re getting after it. It’s comical that women feel entitled to respect for being more cerebral than men about sex (which is horse shit to begin with) and then expect guys to believe that the only thought in their heads is about the guy who presently has his penis in her.

    Watch porn with your GF and have sex afterwards, you’ll see how she’s only thinking about you. Plethysmographic studies show that women get off on watching heterosexuality, homosexuality and even monkeys knocking it out.

    At some point you have to accept that. In fact your being bothered by it smacks of insecure beta to woman. If she’s an Alpha Widow pining away for a former fantasy Alpha, then you have problems. But as long as you’re the A-Guy and her primary focus is your being the best she could attract, just go with it.

    In fact women’s fantasizing is an excellent opportunity for agree & amplify responses. Consider it a shit test where she’s probing to see if you’re Alpha enough to not let it bother you. Mrs. Tomassi tells me she thinks Chris Hemsworth (Thor) is hot, and I say “yeahhhh he is, totally!” completely overblown like my teenage daughter would. In this simple way I recognize her shit test, pass it and put it back on her. Even Bebe Tomassi laughs at it.

    Responses like that are automatic for me now, where back in my beta days I’d get worked up and think “what’s wrong with me? why am I not adequate for her? sheeees sooo beautiful.” When you become the Game you become the confidence.

  • Kuraje

    Shape:
    The external form or appearance of someone or something.

    Depth:
    The quality or state of being complete or thorough.

    The implication is that the target of female love just needs to fit a general criteria (i.e. ‘the checklist’). Inclusive and illustrative of this is Rollo’s post on feminine standards of desirable male physical traits. It’s been unchanged since the dawn of time and “is quite basic”. So long as any man fits that archetype (physically and otherwise), then he’ll do.

    On the other hand, this also means that depth is not a requirement. It usually turns out to be quite the opposite. Cue desire for the mystery man. She wants depth that she can never experience. If she experiences his depth ‘thoroughly and completely’, then her desire shall evaporate.

  • YOHAMI

    Kuraje, +10 for that.

  • Stingray

    There’s a lot of Hamsters spinning to convince you that your GF will take all that sexual anxiety she derives from her fantasy and apply it to you. Beta bait, don’t take it.

    Guilty. Sorry. I’m trying to figure all this out, too.

    “what’s wrong with me? why am I not adequate for her? sheeees sooo beautiful.”

    I don’t understand this. Don’t men see other beautiful women and say the same to their SO’s? Is there no fantasizing from men about other women (porn mags, movie stars, etc?) Then what happens during sex in your minds? Go blank with physical feelings?

    As far as female beauty goes, there is always going to be someone more beautiful, objectively, than the wife/gf. But you chose her. So are women bothered by a man finding other women more beautiful in the same way that you are describing here or is this something that is very different between the sexes as well?

  • Retrenched

    Seems that every thread over at HUS follows the same pattern:

    1. Susan or one of the HUS girls says some blue-pill stuff (girls find beta sexually attractive, girls don’t fall in love with promiscuous men, etc.)

    2.Red-pill guys — many of whom listened to similar advice as young men and were led astray, only to learn the truth later in life — take exception and counter the blue-pill stuff

    3. Susan gets increasingly upset with the red-pill guys who counter the blue-pill stuff, accusing them of hating women, abusing women, etc.

    4. Red-pill guys get censored/banned from HUS, or just give up and leave…

    5. Leaving only the women, male feminists (Hey Gudenuf!) and white knights.

    But to be fair, I don’t think Susan’s behavior makes her evil; it just makes her female. That’s all. I think it would be strange if she did otherwise, frankly.

    The scorpion must sting the frog, and women must police the hierarchy. They can do no other.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Rollo,

    I think what I’m looking for is the unicorn. And I’m hoping that I’ve found her. I can’t say how it is for other guys, but when I fall in love, she becomes “it” for me. Sure, other women are can be beautiful, but–at least to me–not as hot or attractive as my girl. I recognize that a lot of people don’t understand this, but it’s the way I work. So I want a woman who works the same.

    Agree and amplify is great–but when it comes to an issue that’s important to me, I don’t want to just deflect shit tests, you know?

  • Stingray

    Kuraje,

    Thank you for that. It makes sense and would explain deep attraction to the alpha. And since you said physically and otherwise I assume you mean we are attracted to the traits or actions of the alpha as well?

    This brings me to another question. I have been reading lately in the manosphere that men and women love differently. I find this interesting. Women are initially attracted to alpha traits and will fall in love with alpha’s completely (I am not sure if beta traits are actually needed for the love aspect or if that is different from woman to woman. I do think they are necessary for a healthy relationship.) In short we fall in love much for what a man does (how he handles himself and certain situations. This will often trump looks).

    Men are initially attracted by beauty. But I don’t think it is the beauty that you actually fall in love with, is it? For example many men will remain completely in love with a woman for 50 years, after the beauty has faded (I understand that when a woman gets fat the attraction will wane and even disappear. But that seems to have a lot to do with neglect and disregard for the husband and the marriage. A possible personality flaw). They obviously find 18 year old bikini models extremely attractive, but the love remains for their wife. So, how does a man love? What about a woman will make him fall in love? Is it particular to each man or is it more universal?

  • YOHAMI

    Male love: the girl becomes THE ONE. Up in an idealized pedestal and becomes a moral compass, a goddess, a symbol, it’s a bigger than life feeling that makes everything else pale. It can make you endure war, go though hell, go to prison and come out, it’s a light at the end of the tunnel, or if you’re with her, it’s the world surrounding you, it becomes “truth”. It blinds you. It becomes who you are. That’s the male love.

    Check every beta song ever, or read Jesus Mahoney.

    Male love is the opposite of female love. The girl doesnt have to do anything. She just have to be. And that being becomes a god.

  • Stingray

    What makes you fall in love if she doesn’t do anything? What is it about her that made you fall in love to begin with? Or can a man really fall in love with a woman in a picture or one that he just sees walk down the street day after day?

  • YOHAMI

    female love: how he makes her feel and what he provides, with his actions and presence. the center is the girl. male love, an idealization, also with the girl at the center. the guy will “do” and the girl will “be”, often telling the guy what he has to do, so she can feel accordingly.

    In other words she infatuates with herself because of how she feels, and with the guy by extension. the link with “how she feels” is stronger than the actual link she has with the guy.

  • YOHAMI

    men are obsessive creatures and we all (men) have this pedestal – high pristine altar of purity – to be occupied by a higher goal. love is when you put the particular woman in that pedestal.

    so the girl doesnt have to do anything. all it takes is that she presses enough buttons, and the man put’s her up there. and she can press a lot of these buttons just by looking pretty and being friendly – she just have to fill the mold of this particular man, fill the ideal close enough, and she becomes the ideal.

  • YOHAMI

    “can a man really fall in love with a woman in a picture or one that he just sees walk down the street day after day?”

    yep. a man can fall deeply in love with a girl he hasnt met nor has any experience with. “love at first sight” and romanticism is a male thing.

  • YOHAMI

    Think of all the stuff men do and how men push forward, “confident in what they want” before the girl has any clue about this guy. The guy see’s something and is all sure and does stuff. The stuff behind that drive is an idealization, a goal = an obsession. Now if the guy know’s what he’s doing and is not crazy, what he does, over time, will rub the girl in the right way and she will feel something. Active and passive.

  • Stingray

    Yohami,

    Wow. I didn’t know that. I am going to have to think on this. I am not even sure what to think right now. It makes me even more convinced that one of the reasons women so dislike being put on a the pedestal is because we inherently know we do not deserve what you just described. That is purity. We are anything but.

  • YOHAMI

    The other side of this, if the guy is NOT idealizing the girl, but keeps pushing forward towards her, he wants to fuck. And he doesnt have a pedestal, so the girl doesnt reject him, he’s not pushing her in a mold, he just rubs her and makes her feel.

    So women fall in love for guys who dont love them. And they close the door to guys who actually love them.

    This is a major component of the red pill: that love as you know doesnt exist. That’s why so many guys turn it around and hate love, feelings, etc. And why you hear this meme that the moment you profess your love to a woman, or you succumb to love, you lose her.

    The way nature rigged this is great for evolution, but it’s emotionally toxic.

  • Stingray

    Damn though, Yohami. It makes me sad. Men deserve that. Why the hell would we be made to not fulfill that? I know that men and women belong together. That we fit. But holy crap. No one can ever fill what you just described. I understand everything you just described, but it does not compute logically. It seems to be a set up for a huge fall. How does a man continue to love a woman when she is forever failing, as we are wont to do. Even good women fail. Good men fail. It is the human condition.

  • Kuraje

    “And since you said physically and otherwise I assume you mean we are attracted to the traits or actions of the alpha as well?

    This brings me to another question…Women are initially attracted to alpha traits and will fall in love with alpha’s completely (I am not sure if beta traits are actually needed for the love aspect or if that is different from woman to woman. I do think they are necessary for a healthy relationship.) In short we fall in love much for what a man does (how he handles himself and certain situations. This will often trump looks).

    Men are initially attracted by beauty. But I don’t think it is the beauty that you actually fall in love with, is it?

    To borrow from Athol Kay’s Married Man Sex Life Primer (2011), Alpha traits trigger dopamine chemical rushes in a women. (i.e. the tingle, spark, etc). Beta traits trigger the release of oxytocin (i.e. comfort, bonding, ‘love’).

    His hypothesis (which I find to hold true) is that women desire both. The degree to which they favor one or the other is subject to everything from ovulation vs. non-ovulating times of the month and youth (favors dopamine/excitement) vs. aged (favors oxytocin/security). Throw in feminism, solipsism, evolutionary feminine mating strategies with a dash of cultural programming for extra flavor and now we’re cooking.

    Practically every attraction a woman has to a man is rooted in fulfilling her ingrained biological imperative to procreate and have the lil ones survive as best as possible. Cue cuckoldry and betas being stuck with raising another man’s sperm. Genes + Provisioning = Fem-Imperative #FTW!

    For further reading I recommend Athol’s book mentioned earlier & just about every post Rollo’s written. Pay particularly close attention to ‘True Romantics’ by Rollo for more on the men’s side along with Yohami’s comments. Each component that factors into the male/female mating dance rightfully deserves a full post (or several) by itself.

    For compartmentalization’s sake, you could perhaps delve into them as:

    Biology/Physical
    Psychology/Mental (Emotional could fall in here but is a whole can of worms by itself)
    Sociology/(Psychology on the macro scale if you will)
    Spiritual (if you believe in that sort of thing)

    Truth is, they all overlap. To come to the truth of anything requires a holistic approach. Like biological systems, every part is connected to another. Studying each organ in isolation has its merits but the system is greater than the sum of its parts.

  • YOHAMI

    Think of the male drive. It a jump on the nothingness. You compete against other guys, you get tested day and night and are disposable. The pedestal is what makes you wake up and try again.

    Think of the sperm trying to reach that ideal ovule that might not even be there.

    Think of the thousands of male insects that all flight chasing that sole female princess ant. Only one will catch her, but they all try the same. And then when they catch her, the male dies and she carries with the offspring. I dont think the male saw that coming, he probably thought “phew Im saved, Im gonna live happily ever after”.

    Thing is, male love resides up there, with the virtues, plato, the law and the beauty and the gods. It inspires you to create and do larger than life stuff and to reach into the extraordinary – or it destroys you. It’s not a mundane thing. It’s not based on how you make him feel or what you give him.

    I dont think men “deserve” to be loved back. That stuff is there so we push and push and push and push and reach or die trying. The goal is to pass the genes – fuck your happiness. But men “deserve” the truth about it.

    I know I cant be loved the same way I can love. Unless I turn gay. That’s sad though.

  • Stingray

    that love as you know doesnt exist.

    Love like you described, no I don’t think it does. It actually is a bit frightening, because to live up to that, as a woman, would be impossible. But love does exist. I live it everyday. But I know that I am not my husbands life, nor would I want to be. I was lucky enough to be chosen to follow him in his life and aid him in anyway I can. Some men call this a mission and I am sure others have other names. I could not ever be his mission, but is an honor to be chosen to help him and stand by him in his.

  • Stingray

    Yohami,

    Please don’t turn gay. You would make all the girls cry . . . . .
    ;)

  • Stingray

    Kuraje,

    I understand the female side well, I think. I am trying to now figure out male love. I did not realize the two were so very different.

  • YOHAMI

    “Why the hell would we be made to not fulfill that?”

    The two sides of evolution. Males compete, females select. Different instincts and drives etc. We’re specialized. While men are fighting the war and dying, females are protecting the resources and creating the offspring. And I think this was meant to happen in a shorter span. Modernity and civilization fucked this up, or, or base nature keeps fucking civilization, which is based on all those male ideals.

  • Scott

    It is important in becoming a man to go through pain and struggles. That is also part of how I entered Game (to begin with it didn’t even directly deal with getting women, as it was at first more about getting through tough situations). Many people are self-righteous (such as, putting down Game/Masculinity) because they have been insulated since childhood through getting a cushy career and thus have never had to go through much pain/struggles, so they consider their current beliefs as being the only correct view, so when they are knocked off their high-horse they are finally able to take a look around to think/see things differently.

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